Am I putting my kids at a disadvantage?
joyauxjo@...
Hello,
This post starts out asking about how our lifestyle/unschooling choices affect all 3 kids but then steps into specific concerns about my son.
I have experienced other homeschooling parents and some schooling parents not allowing their kids to play with our kids or not allowing their kids to come over to our house because we don't have enough rules or because we have too many toys or because we allow our kids food freedom or because we have too much exposure to technology/screens.
My concerns include that maybe I am keeping our kids from making more friends or from being around the friends that they enjoy. I have wondered if I am doing my kids a disservice by raising them in a way that makes them obviously different and therefore less approachable. Are they less socially aware than their peers and so less likely to be invited to parties or accepted in a group environment? All of my kids seem naturally shy or introverted, but am I making it worse by our lifestyle? Am I putting them at a disadvantage? Does the fact that I don't force them to talk to others or spend time with others or even to follow common social behaviors such as saying "please" and "thank you" put them at a disadvantage? I inform them about what are the kind, social, respectful, empathic things to do, but they do not necessarily do it. When I have guests in our home, I let them know that we will respect their rules for their children and I will do what feels respectful to accommodate them, but this does not mean I will force my kids to stay off of their iPad or force my kids to play outside.
My daughters love being involved in things outside of the house, so I am not as concerned about them, but my son prefers to stay home, and I wonder if there is enough here for him at home. My husband and I can only give him so much. He only has one real life friend his age. He has a few gaming buddies. My son digs in his heals and resists leaving the house unless it fulfills an obvious personal need or desire for him. He is not interested in reading or learning other skills that I consider "basic," such as telling time or how a calendar works or money. He's 11. I have tried many different ways to make these things fun, but perhaps his brain is not ready, because he checks out when I give any sort of instruction or start trying to explain how something works or anything other than just answering his question. My son is not interested in "educational games" or classes. One unschooling friend observed that he is "averse to instruction" (from anyone, not just me). He prefers to dive into things in a way that seems very experimental and disorganized rather than building on what others already know or following a system. He doesn't seem interested in learning so that he can become more independent and less dependent on me.
One example of this huge difference between him and what seems more typical for children is how he learned/didn't learn my phone number. I've tried to get him to memorize my phone number since he was 6 (thinking it could be a safety precaution, feeling pressure from his pediatrician that this was something a child should know, thinking it could lead to more independence for him...). When he was 8 and his little sisters were 3 and 5, they learned my phone number, but he still couldn't get it. Finally, when he was 10, it was clear he was ready to stay home, wanted to stay home and hated going out with us for the girls' activities. I told him I was not comfortable leaving him home if he was unable to call me. We also made sure he knew some other safety precautions to take in an emergency and he did memorize my phone number and show ability to dial it. I have to quiz him regularly, because he still forgets it. I really wonder if there's anything I can do differently, because I'm afraid he's at a disadvantage and of course I want him to have abilities and knowledge that he will need as he matures.
Our son also doesn't like to wash. He has entered puberty, and starts to smell really badly. My husband and I let it go until he starts to smell so badly that everyone in the family is complaining about it. I also talked to my son's new pediatrician and he gave several reasons why it is good to wash regularly, but my son doesn't see value in doing so. This reminds me of our tooth hygiene story with him. He fought tooth care no matter how fun I tried to make it, and I never forced him. Eventually, he had multiple cavities and 2 infections. That experience was traumatic and he ended up going under general anesthesia to get the fillings and extractions done. Afterwards, he started taking impeccable care of his teeth and is still pretty good about it, but needs reminders. When I talk to him about the experience and ask if I could have done anything differently to get him to brush his teeth back then, he says, "no." He doesn't seem to think it was my responsibility nor has the opportunity made him any more likely to heed advice from his father and I. Our son does not change his ways unless he sees an immediate problem or benefit.
So far, my way has been to accept and allow and just remain in conversation with him, but perhaps I am not doing enough or taking a firm enough stance with him??? The girls are very different and seem to appreciate and use the advice or instruction that they are given by adults. In fact, in all of the activities and classes they have chosen, they are "model students" and very easy to parent relative to my son.
Anjelika
(ds 11, dd 7, dd 5, always unschooled)
Clare Kirkpatrick
The phone number thing: I was telling my oldest (12) about how we all needed to know our home phone number when I was growing up. We agreed it's an outdated fear. She has all relevant numbers on her mobile. When we started leaving her at home alone, we wrote a few helpful contact numbers on a piece of paper and stuck it on the wall by the phone. Unpick your fears if they're causing conflict, as you may find they have no basis in reality.
Clare
joyauxjo@...
<<Unpick your fears if they're causing conflict, as you may find they have no basis in reality.>>
Thanks Clare. I agree with this. I used to fear that if my son had to call 911, he would need to know his address, but an officer told me they can trace all stationary numbers. It's only hard to trace a cell phone on the move. I let that go. And I've never thought he needed to know our home number. I do feel like I want my contact info easily available if needed. I've seen it come in handy with other children and think of it as an obvious safety precaution, but in his case, it is not an easy one. Some ideas I have now are to get him a cell phone (not something he cares about for his own use) and/or to tape my cell number around the house in many locations for easy access. I still think knowing my number would be good in case he gets lost when we are out or traveling, visiting amusement parks, etc.... He's funny! He says, "Don't worry, Mom, I won't get lost." Such confidence and humor! :D
Anjelika
Thanks Clare. I agree with this. I used to fear that if my son had to call 911, he would need to know his address, but an officer told me they can trace all stationary numbers. It's only hard to trace a cell phone on the move. I let that go. And I've never thought he needed to know our home number. I do feel like I want my contact info easily available if needed. I've seen it come in handy with other children and think of it as an obvious safety precaution, but in his case, it is not an easy one. Some ideas I have now are to get him a cell phone (not something he cares about for his own use) and/or to tape my cell number around the house in many locations for easy access. I still think knowing my number would be good in case he gets lost when we are out or traveling, visiting amusement parks, etc.... He's funny! He says, "Don't worry, Mom, I won't get lost." Such confidence and humor! :D
Anjelika
Joyce Fetteroll
> On Mar 2, 2016, at 4:24 PM, joyauxjo@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:By sending kids to school parents feel comfortable they're taking care of all things social.
>
> I have wondered if I am doing my kids a disservice by
> raising them in a way that makes them obviously different
> and therefore less approachable. Are they less socially
> aware than their peers and so less likely to be invited to
> parties or accepted in a group environment?
As an introvert, I will tell you it means parents get to shrug off clues that that isn't so. It means kids learn it's not worth telling their parents problems they're having. It means kids think their struggles are just normal so must be put up with.
Being forced to be social is a poor way to learn to be social. Much better is having opportunities, having a parent who is trustworthy to go to with problems and sensitive to your needs. And the space to go at your own pace.
> even to follow common social behaviors such as saying "please" and "thank you" put them at a disadvantage?Do you draw them in when you say "Thank you" for them? Do you smile at them and share your pleasure?
I hope please is fading from use. It's a useless word. Why should "Can I have a glass of water?" be less worthy of help than, "Can I have a glass of water, please?"
I rarely say please. I don't notice when people say it or not. Tone is what's important.
> I let them know that we will respect their rules for their children and I will do what feels respectful to accommodate them, but this does not mean I will force my kids to stay off of their iPad or force my kids to play outside.As written this paints a slightly off picture but there isn't enough to go on. You may want to ask about this separately if there have been issues.
> I wonder if there is enough here for him at home.Does he seem bored? If you're opening doors, showing him around, but he keeps returning home, why do you think it's not home where he's getting what he needs?
> He is not interested in reading or learning other skills that I consider "basic," such as telling time or how a calendar works or money.I wouldn't be either if someone had the attitude that these need to be learned because they're important. They don't need to be *made* fun. They need to be useful to him. Or inherently fun.
Rotten wood doesn't become sound with a fresh coat of paint.
> One unschooling friend observed that he is "averse to instruction"That's not a problem for him. That's how he learns. You seem to want him to learn differently, in a way that's more satisfying for your needs.
> (from anyone, not just me). He prefers to dive into things in a way
> that seems very experimental and disorganized rather than building
> on what others already know or following a system. He doesn't
> seem interested in learning so that he can become more independent
> and less dependent on me.
Part of creating an environment for kids to explore their interests in is getting to know who kids are. What floats their boat?
My daughter would learn just about anything if it was humorous. Why would serious stuff be more important than what she would eagerly pull in?
> One example of this huge difference between him and what seems more typical for children is how he learned/didn't learn my phone number.You already know he doesn't like instruction and pressure. Why does it surprise you that instruction and pressure created resistance?
My feeling is you have a cat. But all you know is dog training. And you're certain all the things dogs need you must teach your son as you'd teach a dog. He resists. Rather than learning from him and adjusting, you're confused why these methods aren't working and seeing him as at fault.
I'm 59. *I* don't trust myself to remember numbers. I make sure I have other ways than my memory to get a number if I need it.
Write them down for him. Put them next to the phone.
You've written these issues all together as though you're asking how to push his reset button.
Rather than asking how to implement your solutions. Open up the problem and get lots of different approaches. Each situation is different. Ask for bathing ideas. Ask for tooth care ideas. I have a bunch collected:
http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/#!cleaner-teeth/cvhq
Ask ways parents approached having a mix of kids who want to stay home and go out. Ask about phone numbers.
Joyce
joyauxjo@...
>>By sending kids to school parents feel comfortable they're taking care of all things social.<<
>>Much better is having opportunities, having a parent who is trustworthy to go to with problems and sensitive to your needs. And the space to go at your own pace.<<
Yes, that is what we're doing here.
>>Do you draw them in when you say "Thank you" for them? Do you smile at them and share your pleasure?
I hope please is fading from use. It's a useless word. Why should "Can I have a glass of water?" be less worthy of help than, "Can I have a glass of water, please?"<<
I hope please is fading from use. It's a useless word. Why should "Can I have a glass of water?" be less worthy of help than, "Can I have a glass of water, please?"<<
Yes, to your first two questions. I also agree that tone is important and "please" is not necessary on the end of a kind request.
> I let them know that we will respect their rules for their children and I will do what feels respectful to accommodate them, but this does not mean I will force my kids to stay off of their iPad or force my kids to play outside.>>As written this paints a slightly off picture but there isn't enough to go on. You may want to ask about this separately if there have been issues.<<What do you mean, this paints a slightly off picture?>>Does he seem bored? If you're opening doors, showing him around, but he keeps returning home, why do you think it's not home where he's getting what he needs?<<He says he is happy, but he has such a different personality from me, and perhaps this is why I interpret his behavior as "bored" or "unhappy." This is an example of him being like a cat while I am like a dog. To me, he seems sad and serious but tells me he is happy.I wonder if staying home all day is mentally healthy for a person. Is his world rich enough just from what we create at home and the limited amount that he goes out? I guess you are telling me "yes." A few weeks ago, a new friend who I introduced to unschooling, walked into our home and called it a "haven for children." Years ago, another friend told me that I was giving my children what she wanted to give her children. So, I guess my post is more about me worrying than there actually being a problem. I think that was my only reason for posting. I have not checked in with an unschooling group lately (just reading here), and some of Sandra's recent comments had me wondering if I was doing enough, or if I was fun enough or if I should be providing opportunitites I hadn't thought of yet. I will go read on your website, Joyce, which I have never visited before, and see if I have other specific questions about any specific problems, as you suggested.>>They don't need to be *made* fun. They need to be useful to him. Or inherently fun. <<I have seen Sandra comment a couple of times about it being important for the parents to make unschooling more fun than going to school, so that is why I needed to bring out that idea. I remember one time Sandra telling a woman, "You're not making it fun enough." This is where I got the idea that it's my job to make things fun and wondering if I was not doing enough because my son definitely doesn't think learning to read or tell time or count money is fun. I feel like I've tried to make things fun for him, but he does not find my ideas "fun." I think that's okay. He is still having fun and making his own fun. When I see he enjoys something, I bring more of that into his life.As for whether or not these things are useful, I definitely think they are useful to him. He thinks they are useful, as well, but doesn't feel any drive to learn them at this point. When I talk with him about it, I am careful to remain kind and curious, not to use an accusatory tone, but just trying to figure out what he's thinking, if he's thought about it at all, to see if he had ideas about it or would like anything else from me. He seems confident that he will eventually learn these things, and doesn't want to do anything about it now.>>You seem to want him to learn differently, in a way that's more satisfying for your needs.<<No. I want him to be able to satisfy his own needs and to feel successful as an adult. I don't want him to feel disadvantaged when he is an adult, so this is why I am trying to cover these bases, address these concerns. Your responses are telling me that I am already doing what he needs, which eases my concerns... at least for now ;)
>>Why would serious stuff be more important than what she would eagerly pull in?<<It's not.
>>You already know he doesn't like instruction and pressure. Why does it surprise you that instruction and pressure created resistance?>>I don't think I was surprised. Did I express that I was surprised? What I do feel pleasantly surprised and relieved about is the idea that he does not need to know my number by heart. You are the 3rd person here who has offered alternatives that seem just as good, and that is a great take-away for me.
>>My feeling is you have a cat. But all you know is dog training. And you're certain all the things dogs need you must teach your son as you'd teach a dog. He resists. Rather than learning from him and adjusting, you're confused why these methods aren't working and seeing him as at fault.<<I do not see him as at fault. I am aware that I am very different from him and he is very different from my other 2 children and that I need to continually work to understand him and to adjust for his needs. I would never even think of "training" children. I don't like that word, used on children. My mother uses that word. I thought I was describing the situation, describing how he is and describing how things are now and asking for input about what I am missing. I am not "certain all the things dogs need I must teach my son" and dog training is not all I know. :D Would it help you feel better if I now created a post about everything that is going well?I have to remember that I tend to post only when I have a concern, worrying and feeling confused, which makes me seem like I am doing things wrong or thinking in the wrong way.I do agree with your assessment that I was feeling confused. This is one of the reasons I posted, but I am getting clarity thanks to your statements. I can see what is NOT true of me and my son and I can also see that I can return to trust and I can see that letting go of the phone number issue (and such things) is okay.
>>You've written these issues all together as though you're asking how to push his reset button. <<That's an interesting perspective. Not what I was going for. Thanks for the input. I'm going to reread what I wrote with that in mind.
>>Rather than asking how to implement your solutions.<<I was not asking how to implement my solutions. Thank you for your suggestions! I will carry them with me and continue reading.
Anjelika :)
Sandra Dodd
-=-I hope please is fading from use. It's a useless word. Why should "Can I have a glass of water?" be less worthy of help than, "Can I have a glass of water, please?"<<
-=- I also agree that tone is important and "please" is not necessary on the end of a kind request.-=-
“Necessary” is decided by the person fulfilling the request. Do you mean to write a note saying
“TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
My child is excused from cultural expectations today.”?
The form of such notes is, traditionally, “Please excuse my child from…” :-)
“Please” is short for “If you please” which is short for “If it pleases you.” The courtesy involves rank and access. If someone has something you need, you are asking politely. They don’t “have to” give it to you. They don’t have to have you at their home, or invite you back. The courtesy is already truncated down to one word. Don’t spend more time, words and energy complaining and avoiding than just saying “please.”
“Bye” is shortened from “God be with you.” It’s a wish for safety. it’s a very ancient courtesy, a little blessing wishing health and protection on a person.
History of words can be WAY more fun that complaining.
This is being shared around facebook today. It’s about why negativity breeds more negativity. I’ve been saying it for years, but some people prefer something that says “science” and has a male name on it. :-)
http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/complaining-rewires-your-brain-for-negativity-science-says.html
Defending negativity and complaint will put one’s kids at a disadvantage, and the relationship with the mom at a disadvantage, and put the mom at a disadvantage.
What might SEEM positive in the original post doesn’t look like a generous welcoming environment. Nor does it seem to recommend courtesy inside or outside the home.
http://sandradodd.com/etiquette
Sandra
-=- I also agree that tone is important and "please" is not necessary on the end of a kind request.-=-
“Necessary” is decided by the person fulfilling the request. Do you mean to write a note saying
“TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
My child is excused from cultural expectations today.”?
The form of such notes is, traditionally, “Please excuse my child from…” :-)
“Please” is short for “If you please” which is short for “If it pleases you.” The courtesy involves rank and access. If someone has something you need, you are asking politely. They don’t “have to” give it to you. They don’t have to have you at their home, or invite you back. The courtesy is already truncated down to one word. Don’t spend more time, words and energy complaining and avoiding than just saying “please.”
“Bye” is shortened from “God be with you.” It’s a wish for safety. it’s a very ancient courtesy, a little blessing wishing health and protection on a person.
History of words can be WAY more fun that complaining.
This is being shared around facebook today. It’s about why negativity breeds more negativity. I’ve been saying it for years, but some people prefer something that says “science” and has a male name on it. :-)
http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/complaining-rewires-your-brain-for-negativity-science-says.html
Defending negativity and complaint will put one’s kids at a disadvantage, and the relationship with the mom at a disadvantage, and put the mom at a disadvantage.
What might SEEM positive in the original post doesn’t look like a generous welcoming environment. Nor does it seem to recommend courtesy inside or outside the home.
http://sandradodd.com/etiquette
Sandra
joyauxjo@...
I'm going to ask a few more specific questions about my 11yo son. Trying to hash out my concerns while I'm at it. Wanting to be in a loving, trusting, appreciative place, and if I can wash away or do something about the concerns that sour my being from time to time, that would be great!
Is it okay that he is not interested in knowing how to tell time, count money, read, and other such "basics" that his schooled peers are learning or already know? Is it okay that I just let him stay home, because that's what he wants to do? Is there any point at which I need to reconsider this approach, such as in after a year or 2 years or 5 years? Or just wait for him to express a need? Do others have stories of children who were introverted like this, perhaps melancholic, but still content/fulfilled and were they able to feel successful and function well as adults (by their own standards)?
Even though my husband is more like our son than I am, my husband also struggles with what seems like lack of passion in our son. We agree that when we or anyone is talking to our son about his few specific interests or doing something that he specifically enjoys (the same interests he's had since he was 3), then our son is passionate and engaged, but he is otherwise uninterested, melancholic, resistant. Is this okay or do we need to do something other than what we are doing, which is to do activities with him that he already knows and is interested in? Those activities are: playing video games, building and talking about Bionicles or Transformers, playing with the cat, watching movies, eating, playing outside at home, building Lego creations, watching YouTube videos. Sometimes, when the weather is nice, he likes to go on hikes or visit parks. Sometimes we go swimming. Sometimes, he hangs out at work with his dad. The people he interacts with regularly are the 4 of us and his best friend who lives across the street. His friend comes over here and our son doesn't like going there, which has led to his friend's feelings being hurt, but I think the friend has accepted this for now. Our son also has gaming buddies online and interacts with other gamers online. He is quite the leader and a very skilled gamer! He gets invites to play with all sorts of teams and with his dad working in the industry, he always knows about the newest and greatest gaming anything. With all of the YouTube videos he watches, he often knows about more than his father. Or shocks his father by talking about something that's still supposed to be a secret but somehow got leaked on YouTube! :D He's really fun when doing things he chooses!
Now that I am writing this out, I am also realizing that part of my concern is that he seems so inflexible. For example, we have been to one of the Disney Parks every year for the past 7 years. That is his only family vacation choice. He gets upset whenever we talk about going someplace else. We have also been on a couple road trips, and once we're on the road, he enjoys several aspects of the trip, seems to benefit from the trip and recalls good memories from the trip. However, he gets mad at the suggestion of another road trip, or any other vacation other than Disney. He is not open to discussion, so if the rest of the family wants to visit another place, we don't get any input from him. He stonewalls. I'm not saying he's wrong and he needs to change. It is frustrating, but we know how to focus on what we enjoy about him, and I'm just looking for perspectives on this with the intention of letting go of residual doubts that spoil my own peace-of-mind.
Thank you for your time and attention and for keeping these discussions so alive! Please know in your responses that my intention is to love my kids as well as I can -- to make sure they feel my love and know that I am here to help them thrive if they need me.
Anjelika :)
Jo Isaac
I get the vibe from this post that the Mom might be putting 'freedom' before working on being a partner to her son?
==I have experienced other homeschooling parents and some schooling parents not allowing their kids to play with our kids or not allowing their kids to come over to our house because we don't have enough rules or because we have too many toys or because
we allow our kids food freedom or because we have too much exposure to technology/screens==
If people didn't want their kids to come to my house, but Kai wanted his friends over, I'd change the way things worked while they were there. I'm the host, Kai's a host to his friends. We'd do things that made our guests feel comfortable and welcome. That might mean coaching Kai before people come over. It might mean putting out monkey platters of food so everyone is happy. If you had an adult friend coming over who was a vegetarian, surely you would accommodate that choice, not make them eat meat? So why wouldn't you accommodate the wishes of your kids friends and their parents? If you aren't willing to accommodate guests, then maybe your kids can go visit friends at their houses instead?
If people didn't want their kids to come to my house, but Kai wanted his friends over, I'd change the way things worked while they were there. I'm the host, Kai's a host to his friends. We'd do things that made our guests feel comfortable and welcome. That might mean coaching Kai before people come over. It might mean putting out monkey platters of food so everyone is happy. If you had an adult friend coming over who was a vegetarian, surely you would accommodate that choice, not make them eat meat? So why wouldn't you accommodate the wishes of your kids friends and their parents? If you aren't willing to accommodate guests, then maybe your kids can go visit friends at their houses instead?
==All of my kids seem naturally shy or introverted, but am I making it worse by our lifestyle?==
I very much doubt that - people are who they are. Making an introvert go to school isn't going to make them any less an introvert.
== or even to follow common social behaviors such as saying "please" and "thank you" put them at a disadvantage? ==
That could put kids at a disadvantage, I think? It depends where and when they are refusing to do it. We don't live in a bubble where manners don't exist. I don't make Kai say please and thank-you to us, at home (though he often does), but I do coach him when we are on our way somewhere when someone will expect it (Nana's, other adults,etc...)...if he forgets (which happens less often now he's older) I say it for him.
==When I have guests in our home, I let them know that we will respect their rules for their children and I will do what feels respectful to accommodate them, but this does not mean I will force my kids to stay off of their iPad or force my kids to play outside.==
You don't have to force anyone...but you can coach them before friends come over. Ask them what might be fun things to do. Suggest after a while on iPads or computers they might go outside or go for a bike ride or a walk. If Kai's got a friend coming over, I often ask what he thinks might be fun things to do while that friend is here - often if all they've done is played a video game, they'll be mad when it's time to go home because they wanted to do other stuff - so we now plan in advance, and if he asks me to, I offer reminders about the other things they wanted to do.
I very much doubt that - people are who they are. Making an introvert go to school isn't going to make them any less an introvert.
== or even to follow common social behaviors such as saying "please" and "thank you" put them at a disadvantage? ==
That could put kids at a disadvantage, I think? It depends where and when they are refusing to do it. We don't live in a bubble where manners don't exist. I don't make Kai say please and thank-you to us, at home (though he often does), but I do coach him when we are on our way somewhere when someone will expect it (Nana's, other adults,etc...)...if he forgets (which happens less often now he's older) I say it for him.
==When I have guests in our home, I let them know that we will respect their rules for their children and I will do what feels respectful to accommodate them, but this does not mean I will force my kids to stay off of their iPad or force my kids to play outside.==
You don't have to force anyone...but you can coach them before friends come over. Ask them what might be fun things to do. Suggest after a while on iPads or computers they might go outside or go for a bike ride or a walk. If Kai's got a friend coming over, I often ask what he thinks might be fun things to do while that friend is here - often if all they've done is played a video game, they'll be mad when it's time to go home because they wanted to do other stuff - so we now plan in advance, and if he asks me to, I offer reminders about the other things they wanted to do.
== My son is not interested in "educational games" or classes. ==
If he's unschooled, why would he need to be? Why are you separating games into 'educational' or otherwise?
== He doesn't seem interested in learning so that he can become more independent and less dependent on me. ==
He's 11. Why would he want to become more independent from you at this age? I'm sure he will in time - in his own time.
If he's unschooled, why would he need to be? Why are you separating games into 'educational' or otherwise?
== He doesn't seem interested in learning so that he can become more independent and less dependent on me. ==
He's 11. Why would he want to become more independent from you at this age? I'm sure he will in time - in his own time.
== I have to quiz him regularly, because he still forgets it. I really wonder if there's anything I can do differently, because I'm afraid he's at a disadvantage and of course I want him to have abilities and knowledge that he will need as he matures.==
It sounds here like you've been swayed by the pediatrician...it sounds very old fashioned - I've never even considered having Kai memorise my number...(though he does know our address). There are lots of other options that don't require memorizing a phone number. Most phones you can program a number into it (which is what we did when Kai was left home alone for the first times - we programmed in mine, my husbands, and Nana's numbers). If he uses a computer while you are out, he can skype you, and you can skype him. Far better and easier than calling, and also free. If he's 11, he'll probably be getting his own phone soon, so you could text him and he will have your number in his contacts.
It sounds here like you've been swayed by the pediatrician...it sounds very old fashioned - I've never even considered having Kai memorise my number...(though he does know our address). There are lots of other options that don't require memorizing a phone number. Most phones you can program a number into it (which is what we did when Kai was left home alone for the first times - we programmed in mine, my husbands, and Nana's numbers). If he uses a computer while you are out, he can skype you, and you can skype him. Far better and easier than calling, and also free. If he's 11, he'll probably be getting his own phone soon, so you could text him and he will have your number in his contacts.
==Our son also doesn't like to wash. He has entered puberty, and starts to smell really badly. My husband and I let it go until he starts to smell so badly that everyone in the family is complaining about it. I also talked to my son's new pediatrician
and he gave several reasons why it is good to wash regularly, but my son doesn't see value in doing so==
If he's not leaving the house, at this point I wouldn't worry. When he becomes interested romantically in someone, i'm sure he'll find value in being clean. Bicarb soda is a great deodorant for men (and women!), if you can encourage him to dust some on in the mornings.
==This reminds me of our tooth hygiene story with him. He fought tooth care no matter how fun I tried to make it, and I never forced him. Eventually, he had multiple cavities and 2 infections.==
More likely due to genetics than to tooth hygiene. But again, in their early teens, most kids become much more aware of most hygiene issues. As a child I barely brushed my teeth, as a teenager I was brushing them about 5 times a day.
If he's not leaving the house, at this point I wouldn't worry. When he becomes interested romantically in someone, i'm sure he'll find value in being clean. Bicarb soda is a great deodorant for men (and women!), if you can encourage him to dust some on in the mornings.
==This reminds me of our tooth hygiene story with him. He fought tooth care no matter how fun I tried to make it, and I never forced him. Eventually, he had multiple cavities and 2 infections.==
More likely due to genetics than to tooth hygiene. But again, in their early teens, most kids become much more aware of most hygiene issues. As a child I barely brushed my teeth, as a teenager I was brushing them about 5 times a day.
==but perhaps I am not doing enough or taking a firm enough stance with him??? The girls are very different and seem to appreciate and use the advice or instruction ==
Don't 'take a firm stance'. Don't instruct him. Be a better partner to him. Coach him on social etiquette and expectations. Help him make his house a cool place for his friends to hang out, without their parents getting upset. Be a team.
Jo
Don't 'take a firm stance'. Don't instruct him. Be a better partner to him. Coach him on social etiquette and expectations. Help him make his house a cool place for his friends to hang out, without their parents getting upset. Be a team.
Jo
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joyauxjo@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]>
Sent: 02 March 2016 21:24
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Am I putting my kids at a disadvantage?
Sent: 02 March 2016 21:24
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Am I putting my kids at a disadvantage?
Hello,
This post starts out asking about how our lifestyle/unschooling choices affect all 3 kids but then steps into specific concerns about my son.
I have experienced other homeschooling parents and some schooling parents not allowing their kids to play with our kids or not allowing their kids to come over to our house because we don't have enough rules or because we have
too many toys or because we allow our kids food freedom or because we have too much exposure to technology/screens.
My concerns include that maybe I am keeping our kids from making more friends or from being around the friends that they enjoy. I have wondered if I am doing my kids a disservice by raising them in a way that makes them obviously
different and therefore less approachable. Are they less socially aware than their peers and so less likely to be invited to parties or accepted in a group environment? All of my kids seem naturally shy or introverted, but am I making it worse by our lifestyle?
Am I putting them at a disadvantage? Does the fact that I don't force them to talk to others or spend time with others or even to follow common social behaviors such as saying "please" and "thank you" put them at a disadvantage? I inform them about what are
the kind, social, respectful, empathic things to do, but they do not necessarily do it. When I have guests in our home, I let them know that we will respect their rules for their children and I will do what feels respectful to accommodate them, but this does
not mean I will force my kids to stay off of their iPad or force my kids to play outside.
My daughters love being involved in things outside of the house, so I am not as concerned about them, but my son prefers to stay home, and I wonder if there is enough here for him at home. My husband and I can only give him
so much. He only has one real life friend his age. He has a few gaming buddies. My son digs in his heals and resists leaving the house unless it fulfills an obvious personal need or desire for him. He is not interested in reading or learning other skills that
I consider "basic," such as telling time or how a calendar works or money. He's 11. I have tried many different ways to make these things fun, but perhaps his brain is not ready, because he checks out when I give any sort of instruction or start trying to
explain how something works or anything other than just answering his question. My son is not interested in "educational games" or classes. One unschooling friend observed that he is "averse to instruction" (from anyone, not just me). He prefers to dive into
things in a way that seems very experimental and disorganized rather than building on what others already know or following a system. He doesn't seem interested in learning so that he can become more independent and less dependent on me.
One example of this huge difference between him and what seems more typical for children is how he learned/didn't learn my phone number. I've tried to get him to memorize my phone number since he was 6 (thinking it could be
a safety precaution, feeling pressure from his pediatrician that this was something a child should know, thinking it could lead to more independence for him...). When he was 8 and his little sisters were 3 and 5, they learned my phone number, but he still
couldn't get it. Finally, when he was 10, it was clear he was ready to stay home, wanted to stay home and hated going out with us for the girls' activities. I told him I was not comfortable leaving him home if he was unable to call me. We also made sure he
knew some other safety precautions to take in an emergency and he did memorize my phone number and show ability to dial it. I have to quiz him regularly, because he still forgets it. I really wonder if there's anything I can do differently, because I'm afraid
he's at a disadvantage and of course I want him to have abilities and knowledge that he will need as he matures.
Our son also doesn't like to wash. He has entered puberty, and starts to smell really badly. My husband and I let it go until he starts to smell so badly that everyone in the family is complaining about it. I also talked to
my son's new pediatrician and he gave several reasons why it is good to wash regularly, but my son doesn't see value in doing so. This reminds me of our tooth hygiene story with him. He fought tooth care no matter how fun I tried to make it, and I never forced
him. Eventually, he had multiple cavities and 2 infections. That experience was traumatic and he ended up going under general anesthesia to get the fillings and extractions done. Afterwards, he started taking impeccable care of his teeth and is still pretty
good about it, but needs reminders. When I talk to him about the experience and ask if I could have done anything differently to get him to brush his teeth back then, he says, "no." He doesn't seem to think it was my responsibility nor has the opportunity
made him any more likely to heed advice from his father and I. Our son does not change his ways unless he sees an immediate problem or benefit.
So far, my way has been to accept and allow and just remain in conversation with him, but perhaps I am not doing enough or taking a firm enough stance with him??? The girls are very different and seem to appreciate and use
the advice or instruction that they are given by adults. In fact, in all of the activities and classes they have chosen, they are "model students" and very easy to parent relative to my son.
Anjelika
(ds 11, dd 7, dd 5, always unschooled)
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm 59. *I* don't trust myself to remember numbers. I make sure I have other ways than my memory to get a number if I need it.
-=-Write them down for him. Put them next to the phone.-=-
Telephones used to always have the number right on them—that was helpful. :-)
Early cellphones did, too—opened up to a display of the number. That’s been a while.
I’m 62, but for months I was telling people I was 62 when I was 61.
I don’t know my kids’ phone numbers. I don’t have my phone, and can’t get to my computer or iPad, I will ask my husband because numbers stick in his memory easily, but they don’t in mine.
When I was little, it was crucial for children to know their phone number and address. It was treated as a life and death matter. Jefferson 5-5888, up until the time I was six. From six to 18, 3-4104. It was such a small town, five numbers were enough. For calling from out of town, it was 753-4104.
How wonderful is it now for me to know those numbers? I know the addresses, too, though the first house is gone and there’s a repair shop of some sort there, and the other address changed.
When my kids were little and were going to be out without me, with another family, in a public place, I wrote my name and phone number on a handkerchief, and the child’s name, and the name of the person he was with. I tied the handkerchief like a bandana, around his neck. When they were older and that wasn’t cool, I wrote the info on a 3x5 card, folded it and put it in a pocket, reminding them they had that in case of an emergency.
I don’t know my bank account nuber, but if I need to go to the bank I take my checkbook and hold it out to the teller.
When I stay in a hotel, I have a very hard time learning a number, so I write it down on an envelope and put the room key in that.
Having a mom who’s worried about the wrongs things is a disadvantage. Look for what you DO have, and at what he CAN do.
Sandra
-=-Write them down for him. Put them next to the phone.-=-
Telephones used to always have the number right on them—that was helpful. :-)
Early cellphones did, too—opened up to a display of the number. That’s been a while.
I’m 62, but for months I was telling people I was 62 when I was 61.
I don’t know my kids’ phone numbers. I don’t have my phone, and can’t get to my computer or iPad, I will ask my husband because numbers stick in his memory easily, but they don’t in mine.
When I was little, it was crucial for children to know their phone number and address. It was treated as a life and death matter. Jefferson 5-5888, up until the time I was six. From six to 18, 3-4104. It was such a small town, five numbers were enough. For calling from out of town, it was 753-4104.
How wonderful is it now for me to know those numbers? I know the addresses, too, though the first house is gone and there’s a repair shop of some sort there, and the other address changed.
When my kids were little and were going to be out without me, with another family, in a public place, I wrote my name and phone number on a handkerchief, and the child’s name, and the name of the person he was with. I tied the handkerchief like a bandana, around his neck. When they were older and that wasn’t cool, I wrote the info on a 3x5 card, folded it and put it in a pocket, reminding them they had that in case of an emergency.
I don’t know my bank account nuber, but if I need to go to the bank I take my checkbook and hold it out to the teller.
When I stay in a hotel, I have a very hard time learning a number, so I write it down on an envelope and put the room key in that.
Having a mom who’s worried about the wrongs things is a disadvantage. Look for what you DO have, and at what he CAN do.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-I still think knowing my number would be good in case he gets lost when we are out or traveling, visiting amusement parks, etc-=-
A paper wristband with the number on it might work. Or a metal bracelet engraved. Or a keychain with it engraved (a dog tag! on a clip he could put on a belt loop?).
Sandra
A paper wristband with the number on it might work. Or a metal bracelet engraved. Or a keychain with it engraved (a dog tag! on a clip he could put on a belt loop?).
Sandra
kerry bennassar
And my friend just writes her cell phone number on her kid's arm when they are at the zoo or an amusement park!
--
Kerry, Javier, Nico & Jaz
--
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
We just had a chat about what kind of parent can unschool last week.
One of the things that help parents be better Unschoolers is to be creative In problem solving I think.
Instead of thinking you need to make your child know a number by heart in case they ever need, there are many other ways to help !
I still have a sheet with important numbers down in my kitchen. It was from the time my son was a Cub Scout. We don't even have a landline anymore!
My son is not interested in a cel phone, his sister is 3 years younger and has her own cell phone.
They both know how to make calls with the cell phone.
I am not sure my son knows our numbers but that sheet of paper has been there for at least 7 years and the kids know it is there!
I am pretty sure they could use it if needed. Both know about 911 too.
My son does not like to go out either. He is happy at home.
I have a friend who had a son about my son's age and who had a similar personality.
This boy goes to school and that has not made him be any less introverted than my son is.
Alex Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 3, 2016, at 9:27 PM, kerry bennassar kerryhorton@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
And my friend just writes her cell phone number on her kid's arm when they are at the zoo or an amusement park!
--Kerry, Javier, Nico & Jaz
Nada
Or just write it on the insoles of his shoes. Hard to forget those! If his feet are tied in smelly sneakers, he can get the number from there anytime. Heck, you could even tape a quarter in there to go with it (on the off-chance he finds a pay phone the phone companies missed).
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 3, 2016, at 11:09 PM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-I still think knowing my number would be good in case he gets lost when we are out or traveling, visiting amusement parks, etc-=-
A paper wristband with the number on it might work. Or a metal bracelet engraved. Or a keychain with it engraved (a dog tag! on a clip he could put on a belt loop?).
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-if I can wash away or do something about the concerns that sour my being from time to time, that would be great!-=-
If you go away from the discussion and only come back when you’re totally stuck, it’s probably why you got stuck.
Stay here. Read what other people ask about, and read the resposes. Maybe go into the archives and search, or go here and search in the second box (which covers five or six unschooling sites):
http://sandradodd.com/search
If you never did fully deschool and move confidently into full-on unschooling, the effect will be felt in your children and family. It’s not too late to do that, but you’ve been in this group since 2011. Please don’t wait another five years to build your confidence.
I’m asking questions below that you should NOT respond to in writing here. They are for you to think about. Others reading will think about them. They are rhetorical questions intended to really help you. You don’t need to, nor should you, try to answer them in this forum.
-=-Is it okay that he is not interested in knowing how to tell time, count money, read, and other such "basics" that his schooled peers are learning or already know?-=-
What if someone says “it’s not okay”?
Do you think that all of the kids his age in school can do those things? School creates failures. No teacher is allowed to give good grades to all the kids. LOTS of kids get to high school without being able to read or write or do basic math. The difference is that they’re crushed, branded failures, non-readers; they’re teased, insulted.
-=- Is it okay that I just let him stay home, because that's what he wants to do? -=-
Okay with him? With you? With what percentage of the members of this group?
But ARE you “just letting him stay home”? Are you not interacting with him a great deal, and providing a rich, stimulating environment? It’s NOT okay to just let a child stay home and call it homeschooling. I hope you haven’t been waiting since 2011 for him to express a need.
Don’t answer those questions here. Consider them as you think, drive, walk.
-=-Do others have stories of children who were introverted like this, perhaps melancholic, but still content/fulfilled and were they able to feel successful and function well as adults (by their own standards)?-=-
If you think school would really help him and change him in positive ways, school would be willing to take him in.
Do you think that every high school graduate is content/fulfilled and feels successful and functions well?
Sandra
If you go away from the discussion and only come back when you’re totally stuck, it’s probably why you got stuck.
Stay here. Read what other people ask about, and read the resposes. Maybe go into the archives and search, or go here and search in the second box (which covers five or six unschooling sites):
http://sandradodd.com/search
If you never did fully deschool and move confidently into full-on unschooling, the effect will be felt in your children and family. It’s not too late to do that, but you’ve been in this group since 2011. Please don’t wait another five years to build your confidence.
I’m asking questions below that you should NOT respond to in writing here. They are for you to think about. Others reading will think about them. They are rhetorical questions intended to really help you. You don’t need to, nor should you, try to answer them in this forum.
-=-Is it okay that he is not interested in knowing how to tell time, count money, read, and other such "basics" that his schooled peers are learning or already know?-=-
What if someone says “it’s not okay”?
Do you think that all of the kids his age in school can do those things? School creates failures. No teacher is allowed to give good grades to all the kids. LOTS of kids get to high school without being able to read or write or do basic math. The difference is that they’re crushed, branded failures, non-readers; they’re teased, insulted.
-=- Is it okay that I just let him stay home, because that's what he wants to do? -=-
Okay with him? With you? With what percentage of the members of this group?
But ARE you “just letting him stay home”? Are you not interacting with him a great deal, and providing a rich, stimulating environment? It’s NOT okay to just let a child stay home and call it homeschooling. I hope you haven’t been waiting since 2011 for him to express a need.
Don’t answer those questions here. Consider them as you think, drive, walk.
-=-Do others have stories of children who were introverted like this, perhaps melancholic, but still content/fulfilled and were they able to feel successful and function well as adults (by their own standards)?-=-
If you think school would really help him and change him in positive ways, school would be willing to take him in.
Do you think that every high school graduate is content/fulfilled and feels successful and functions well?
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-Even though my husband is more like our son than I am, my husband also struggles with what seems like lack of passion in our son. -=-
#1, struggle.
Does your struggle, or your husband’s, help? Who is the opponent in your struggle?
Read this slowly and twice, please:
http://sandradodd.com/battle
#2, there is an inherited, genetic trait that some people have LOTS of, and other people have less of. It’s called “openness to experience.” If your husband doesn’t have much, and your son is like your husband is, that might make them seem inflexible or uinterested in doing things with others, or doing unfamiliar things.
But why would you consider dropping unschooling when you have a child doing all of the things you described? That is a LONG list, but it seems you’re looking for what he’s NOT doing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openness_to_experience
If you can afford Disney vacations, maybe you could afford to hire someone to stay at your house with him while the rest of the family does the sorts of things he’s not interested in.
-=-Please know in your responses that my intention is to love my kids as well as I can -- to make sure they feel my love and know that I am here to help them thrive if they need me.-=-
Please know that the group is here to help ALL readers understand unschooling better.
We hope to make it easy for people to love their kids better and more easily.
If you don’t already read “Just Add Light and Stir,” that might help you to relax and see the best in your son.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
There’s a randomizer there if you want to look at some back posts before deciding whether to subscribe.
-=-I am here to help them thrive if they need me.-=-
They DO need you. But if you provide a strong base and a warm nest, they won’t need more help to thrive than that. It seems harsh to criticize someone who is "quite the leader and a very skilled gamer.”
-=- he is otherwise uninterested, melancholic, resistant.-=-
Without pressure, there can’t be resistance.
There seem to be MANY things he IS interested in.
Anyone being pressured could seem melancholic in response.
If you can be his partner and not his adversary (or critic), you will see only interest and cooperation. If he wants to stay home, find ways for that to happen without the whole rest of the family having to stay, too. Or let half the family go, and one adult stay, maybe, and then switch around for another trip, perhaps.
But these are ideas that ANYone here can use, so you don’t need to explain or defend. Just let the ideas percolate through you in your own life, over the next many months and years.
Sandra
#1, struggle.
Does your struggle, or your husband’s, help? Who is the opponent in your struggle?
Read this slowly and twice, please:
http://sandradodd.com/battle
#2, there is an inherited, genetic trait that some people have LOTS of, and other people have less of. It’s called “openness to experience.” If your husband doesn’t have much, and your son is like your husband is, that might make them seem inflexible or uinterested in doing things with others, or doing unfamiliar things.
But why would you consider dropping unschooling when you have a child doing all of the things you described? That is a LONG list, but it seems you’re looking for what he’s NOT doing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openness_to_experience
If you can afford Disney vacations, maybe you could afford to hire someone to stay at your house with him while the rest of the family does the sorts of things he’s not interested in.
-=-Please know in your responses that my intention is to love my kids as well as I can -- to make sure they feel my love and know that I am here to help them thrive if they need me.-=-
Please know that the group is here to help ALL readers understand unschooling better.
We hope to make it easy for people to love their kids better and more easily.
If you don’t already read “Just Add Light and Stir,” that might help you to relax and see the best in your son.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
There’s a randomizer there if you want to look at some back posts before deciding whether to subscribe.
-=-I am here to help them thrive if they need me.-=-
They DO need you. But if you provide a strong base and a warm nest, they won’t need more help to thrive than that. It seems harsh to criticize someone who is "quite the leader and a very skilled gamer.”
-=- he is otherwise uninterested, melancholic, resistant.-=-
Without pressure, there can’t be resistance.
There seem to be MANY things he IS interested in.
Anyone being pressured could seem melancholic in response.
If you can be his partner and not his adversary (or critic), you will see only interest and cooperation. If he wants to stay home, find ways for that to happen without the whole rest of the family having to stay, too. Or let half the family go, and one adult stay, maybe, and then switch around for another trip, perhaps.
But these are ideas that ANYone here can use, so you don’t need to explain or defend. Just let the ideas percolate through you in your own life, over the next many months and years.
Sandra
joyauxjo@...
I am not considering dropping unschooling.
We have unschooled (to the best of my ability based on my information and understanding), since 2006.
I would only willingly put my kids in school if they wanted to go.
I have been working on my confidence in many areas for much longer than I have been unschooling. I think that self-realization and personal growth are a never-ending process, as is unschooling, since each parent/child/family is different. I don't think there is a timeline on how quickly or slowly I "should" be making personal growth. I like Sandra's advice not to struggle. It applies to my relationship to myself as much as my relationship to my children.
I took a chance on being vulnerable by posting in order to make progress around discomfort that keeps coming up for me -- discomfort that comes up even though I have been reading on here and Sandra's website and book. I haven't found the answers that inspire me just by reading and I have had some questions come up. So, I am seeking clarity, not searching for reasons to send my kids to school or stop unschooling or someone to tell me how I can change who my son is. Just looking for a tweak here or there to work out the discomfort I've been feeling.
Posting is hard, puts me in a vulnerable position, leaves me feeling raw and misunderstood, but offering the best I can for my kids is a priority and I think this is a pretty fast way to get to the meat of an issue. I am reading links even when I've already read them in the past multiple times. I am rereading my posts and other's responses. I appreciate the time and attention given by each responder in your effort to have good discussion and get me closer to where I want to be.
Anjelika
semajrak@...
<<Even though my husband is more like our son than I am, my husband also struggles with what seems like lack of passion in our son.>>
You seem to be looking in the wrong direction. With all the things you son does seem to be interested in (some since age 3) you still see lack of passion. Don't skim over his pursuits looking for the ones you can assign more value. Take time to really see the value in all he chooses to do.
<<We agree that when we or anyone is talking to our son about his few specific interests or doing something that he specifically enjoys (the same interests he's had since he was 3), then our son is passionate and engaged, but he is otherwise uninterested, melancholic, resistant.>>
How do you listen to him when he's talking about his interests? Are you fully present? Do you engage in discussions with him? Do you know enough about what he's doing to talk with him in detail about his interests and activities? Are you showing him the passion, engagement and interest you are expecting from him? You don't need to answer. Just think about these questions. If you feel you are giving his interests enough attention and respect, then great! Otherwise, think of ways you can do more yourself to truly learn to appreciate the things he is choosing to spend his time and efforts on.
<<We agree that when we or anyone is talking to our son about his few specific interests...>>
Why did you use the words "few specific?" Why didn't you say "We agree that when we or anyone is talking to our son about his interests..." Take time to listen to the words you are choosing to describe your son. These aren't generous words. Perhaps that is being reflected in your attitude toward him, and perhaps he feels that. Maybe that worry and disappointment you seem to be expressing here causes him to feel a little melancholy at times, as you describe. Try to frame (in your own mind) what you are seeing in the most generous way possible. Take time to notice what you are telling yourself. When it sounds negative or belittling or condescending, reword it. Be honest, but be as generous as you can.
<<Is this okay or do we need to do something other than what we are doing, which is to do activities with him that he already knows and is interested in?>>
I have personally found the greatest way to connect with the people I love is to join them in the things they love to do. So I'd be inclined to say Yes! Play video games with your son. Build and talk about Bionicles or Transformers or Lego. Get down on the floor with him and play with the cat. Watch movies and Youtube with him. Do all the things you listed with your boy until you can see what he loves about them, and he can feel you coming to appreciate what he's doing and why. He needs to know you care about his interests as much as you want him to care about other people's ideas and interests.
<<He's really fun when doing things he chooses!>>
Most of us are more fun when we're doing things we choose. Keep looking at your son until you can simply and honestly say, "He's really fun!" end of statement. When you can see and say that, you'll be in a better position to add to his experience, and he'll be in a better position to consider what you (and others) have to offer.
Karen James
Karen James
Richard Howes
On 04 Mar 2016, at 11:23 AM, semajrak@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
Why did you use the words "few specific?" Why didn't you say "We agree that when we or anyone is talking to our son about his interests..." Take time to listen to the words you are choosing to describe your son. These aren't generous words. Perhaps that is being reflected in your attitude toward him, and perhaps he feels that. Maybe that worry and disappointment you seem to be expressing here causes him to feel a little melancholy at times, as you describe. Try to frame (in your own mind) what you are seeing in the most generous way possible. Take time to notice what you are telling yourself. When it sounds negative or belittling or condescending, reword it. Be honest, but be as generous as you can.
I think I might be getting a reading on a point of confusion here - I know I am confused at times.
On the one hand radical unschooling tries not to enforce rules, judge activities as good or bad, educational or not etc. It also does not do the things our parents used to do, like make us bath/shower daily, brush teeth twice a day etc. There have been threads where parents accommodate almost any eating habits, including taking food to the rooms of avid gamers and trying to provide food they will/want to eat. There are no limits on things like screen time and no judgement that watching YouTube all day, or gaming all day, as not educational.
On the other hand you have Sandra saying things like "It’s NOT okay to just let a child stay home and call it homeschooling.” What does that mean? Does that mean I have to be proactively making sure he is learning something?
So for example I get comfortable when I hear no limits to screen time because my son (11) is an avid gamer. He plays all sorts of games and one of his favourites is Ark Survival and he has learnt a huge amount about dinosaurs playing it. He tells us in great detail all about the dinosaurs, size, weight, habits, etc. He also plays creative sandbox games like Minecraft and builds amazing worlds, often in collaboration with his sister/cousins/online friends.
Then there are occasional comments from people I consider experts on this forum that make me panic a little that I am not doing enough to make sure they are learning.
My daughter (10) is another example. She is obsessed with horses and is an avid rider. She made our provincial side last year at 9 years of age and competed in the national championships. Almost all her activities involve horses, including her gaming, so there is very little variety. Is this a problem? Should be we worried we are not providing enough alternative stimulation that prevents her from having other interests besides horses?
I may not be making myself as clear as I would like. Trying to summarise again, I get mixed messages sometimes. On one hand, don’t judge, don’t have arbitrary rules, don’t have arbitrary limits, accommodate the desires and needs of the child.
On the other I read comments that imply, don’t just do nothing, staying at home and calling it homeschooling is NOT ok, providing wide and varied stimulation and opportunity is crucial.
Anyone else feeling that way?
Cheers
Richard
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think that self-realization and personal growth are a never-ending process, as is unschooling, since each parent/child/family is different. I don't think there is a timeline on how quickly or slowly I "should" be making personal growth. -=-
Personal growth can continue your entire life.
Unschooling only lasts until the kids are past compulsory school age.
That IS a timeline. That is a process that will end.
If insufficient realization and growth are not accomplished early on, unschooling will not succeed as well as it would have if the parents had stepped up their understanding early, so that the remaining years would be rich and full.
-=-So, I am seeking clarity, not searching for reasons to send my kids to school or stop unschooling or someone to tell me how I can change who my son is. Just looking for a tweak here or there to work out the discomfort I've been feeling.-=-
I think people were suggesting that you accept your son as he is, and not try to change him, weren’t they?
-=-Just looking for a tweak here or there-=-
The purpose of this group, though, is not to offer you “just” a tweak, but to discuss (for the benefit of ALL the readers of the discussion now or in the future) where what you share is or is not “getting warm” or “getting cold,” in terms of long-term, sustainable, optimal unschooling.
-=-I am reading links even when I've already read them in the past multiple times.-=-
Anyone who has ever read a book more than once, or watched a film more than once (or a dozen times), or listened to a favorite piece of music more than once (or a hundred times) knows that it will reveal more as the understanding of the reader/viewer/listener increases.
Reading a page on my site won’t affect anyone’s life or mind. It’s just reading.
The only thing that helps is if, after reading, the mom thinks about the ideas, compares them to what she already knows, and changes her thinking or actions because of what was read.
When I bring a link, it is always because it seems from what was written that the ideas on that page could (IF IMPLEMENTED, not if just read) take the writer’s thinking in a direction that will improve thought, improve relationships, and improve learning.
Sandra
Personal growth can continue your entire life.
Unschooling only lasts until the kids are past compulsory school age.
That IS a timeline. That is a process that will end.
If insufficient realization and growth are not accomplished early on, unschooling will not succeed as well as it would have if the parents had stepped up their understanding early, so that the remaining years would be rich and full.
-=-So, I am seeking clarity, not searching for reasons to send my kids to school or stop unschooling or someone to tell me how I can change who my son is. Just looking for a tweak here or there to work out the discomfort I've been feeling.-=-
I think people were suggesting that you accept your son as he is, and not try to change him, weren’t they?
-=-Just looking for a tweak here or there-=-
The purpose of this group, though, is not to offer you “just” a tweak, but to discuss (for the benefit of ALL the readers of the discussion now or in the future) where what you share is or is not “getting warm” or “getting cold,” in terms of long-term, sustainable, optimal unschooling.
-=-I am reading links even when I've already read them in the past multiple times.-=-
Anyone who has ever read a book more than once, or watched a film more than once (or a dozen times), or listened to a favorite piece of music more than once (or a hundred times) knows that it will reveal more as the understanding of the reader/viewer/listener increases.
Reading a page on my site won’t affect anyone’s life or mind. It’s just reading.
The only thing that helps is if, after reading, the mom thinks about the ideas, compares them to what she already knows, and changes her thinking or actions because of what was read.
When I bring a link, it is always because it seems from what was written that the ideas on that page could (IF IMPLEMENTED, not if just read) take the writer’s thinking in a direction that will improve thought, improve relationships, and improve learning.
Sandra
Bernadette Lynn
**********"On the other hand you have Sandra saying things like "It’s NOT okay to just let a child stay home and call it homeschooling.” What does that mean? Does that mean I have to be proactively making sure he is learning something?"************
You need to proactively make sure he's content. Proactively learn about his interests. Proactively keep him supplied with the games, conversation and activities he needs. You know he's learning, because you engage with him and hear what he's interested in: make sure you stay interested in him and don't allow that interest to stagnate. He'll change, and his interests will shift, and if you're paying enough attention you'll see that happen, and see if he needs more. Don't just let him stay home and then carry on with your own life. Be part of his life, at home.
***********" Almost all her activities involve horses, including her gaming, so there is very little variety. Is this a problem? Should be we worried we are not providing enough alternative stimulation that prevents her from having other interests besides horses?"*******************
She's riding, she gaming, she's working with a team: that sounds like quite a lot of variety. The question you should ask is: is it enough for her? Does she ask for more, or say she's bored, or seem unhappy and unmotivated?
If there's a lot around, if you have board games and books and computers and other interesting things, if you're available to talk to her and play the games with her and take her to places, and if she knows and trusts that you will, you aren't preventing her from having other interests. She has a world available to her and is *choosing* horses.
But, be careful not to be too proud of her achievements. Don't make her feel that your love and pride is because she's good at riding. Make sure she knows you'll love her as much and be as proud of her even if she drops it and does something else, because if she isn't certain of that it could prevent her having other interests.
If there's a lot around, if you have board games and books and computers and other interesting things, if you're available to talk to her and play the games with her and take her to places, and if she knows and trusts that you will, you aren't preventing her from having other interests. She has a world available to her and is *choosing* horses.
But, be careful not to be too proud of her achievements. Don't make her feel that your love and pride is because she's good at riding. Make sure she knows you'll love her as much and be as proud of her even if she drops it and does something else, because if she isn't certain of that it could prevent her having other interests.
Bernadette.
Sandra Dodd
-=-On the one hand radical unschooling tries not to enforce rules, judge activities as good or bad, educational or not etc. It also does not do the things our parents used to do, like make us bath/shower daily, brush teeth twice a day etc. There have been threads where parents accommodate almost any eating habits, including taking food to the rooms of avid gamers and trying to provide food they will/want to eat. There are no limits on things like screen time and no judgement that watching YouTube all day, or gaming all day, as not educational.-=-
To speak of “radical unschooling” as though it is an entity will miss the point.
To speak of radical unschooling as though there is a governing body and a set of regulations will, too.
-=-It also does not do the things our parents used to do, like make us bath/shower daily, brush teeth twice a day etc. -=-
Radical unschooling’s not going to go to your house and make anyone do anything, nor prevent anyone from doing anything.
Do what makes sense to you.
This discussion and some (few) others are set up to try and help people figure out what their options are and how unschooling principles (the ideas, the “why”?) can help them make decisions based on something other than school and grades and schoolishness. Lots of kids WILL bathe and brush teeth lots. Some might have persuasion, some might just want to. When Marty and Holly had braces, they took better care of them than they would have if I had tried to manage and schedule dental care. Both of them did. They heard what the orthodontist said, and and understood why, and did it.
-=- not to enforce rules, judge activities as good or bad, educational or not -=-
This is the confusing part.
IF parents sort the world into educational and not, and then IF those parents try to enforce and judge based on that, unschooling is not going to happen.
At another point across the pivot point, if the parents think unschooling is something that the children should do and the parents leave them alone unless they ask for help, and the parents are critical of what the children ARE doing, and not very involve in it, unschooling is not going to work well At All.
-=-There have been threads where parents accommodate almost any eating habits, including taking food to the rooms of avid gamers and trying to provide food they will/want to eat.-=-
“Eating habits” is an odd term. I made sure my kids had food they liked and wanted to eat. When I took food to them, it wasn’t because they were avid gamers. It was beause there was a new game and a marathon going on, and I knew that boy was going to forget to eat, or not want to leave the game to eat, and could get grumpy from hunger. Or it was because there was company and the activity was a competitive game that the kids couldn’t play in that way without extra kids over. I would take food they could all reach and share—something not messy. Something with protein.
People DO feed their guests. :-) But those guests didn’t come over to eat. They came over to play games. So rather than say [insert sing-songy nasal cartoon mom-voice here] “Boys! You need to turn the game off now and come and have lunch,” I put food within reach. Not because they were avid gamers. Not because that was their “eating habit.” Because I wanted to support the activity they were doing.
It’s like taking cold drinks to people who are working outside in the summer.
-=-There are no limits on things like screen time and no judgement that watching YouTube all day, or gaming all day, as not educational.
This is written as though there are rules about lack of limits, and that radical unschooling requires all to state that YouTube all day is educational. It’s a legalistic sort of description of what can be a rich learning environment.
Don’t look at what. Look at why.
-=-On the other hand you have Sandra saying things like "It’s NOT okay to just let a child stay home and call it homeschooling.” What does that mean? Does that mean I have to be proactively making sure he is learning something?-=-
I don’t think it’s “on the other hand.” If a family is standing back, appalled at what seems (from the mom’s description) to be a big life of interaction (online, but online for a child who’s not big into going out), of group projects and research (knowing what’s new in any field is active learning that many professionals don’t even bother with), and if they call that just staying home, and wonder whether he should be in school, or whether they should be making him do differently. that is not the sort of partnership and cooperation, appreciation, abundance and graditude that should be underpinning the game play and reading.
WHY would a child watch TV like a zombie after six or seven hours at school? Escape. Recovery. Privacy/solitude.
Why would an unschooled child watch TV? Because of the many options available, that’s the one that’s interesting to him or her at that moment. It can be turned off, or left on, without regard to “school night” or homework or what day of the week it is. It’s just one of many things, if the child’s life is safe and secure and full of options.
-=-So for example I get comfortable when I hear no limits to screen time because my son (11) is an avid gamer.-=-
Hearing advice to let him play if he wants to should not be the same as “hearing no limits.”
Hear choices. Hear avoidance of arbitrary rules. Hear joy.
-=-My daughter (10) is another example. She is obsessed with horses and is an avid rider. She made our provincial side last year at 9 years of age and competed in the national championships. Almost all her activities involve horses, including her gaming, so there is very little variety. Is this a problem? Should be we worried we are not providing enough alternative stimulation that prevents her from having other interests besides horses?-=-
Any interest or focus will eventually touch on all of the rest of the world, if pursued and explored happily.
More, in another post.
Sandra
To speak of “radical unschooling” as though it is an entity will miss the point.
To speak of radical unschooling as though there is a governing body and a set of regulations will, too.
-=-It also does not do the things our parents used to do, like make us bath/shower daily, brush teeth twice a day etc. -=-
Radical unschooling’s not going to go to your house and make anyone do anything, nor prevent anyone from doing anything.
Do what makes sense to you.
This discussion and some (few) others are set up to try and help people figure out what their options are and how unschooling principles (the ideas, the “why”?) can help them make decisions based on something other than school and grades and schoolishness. Lots of kids WILL bathe and brush teeth lots. Some might have persuasion, some might just want to. When Marty and Holly had braces, they took better care of them than they would have if I had tried to manage and schedule dental care. Both of them did. They heard what the orthodontist said, and and understood why, and did it.
-=- not to enforce rules, judge activities as good or bad, educational or not -=-
This is the confusing part.
IF parents sort the world into educational and not, and then IF those parents try to enforce and judge based on that, unschooling is not going to happen.
At another point across the pivot point, if the parents think unschooling is something that the children should do and the parents leave them alone unless they ask for help, and the parents are critical of what the children ARE doing, and not very involve in it, unschooling is not going to work well At All.
-=-There have been threads where parents accommodate almost any eating habits, including taking food to the rooms of avid gamers and trying to provide food they will/want to eat.-=-
“Eating habits” is an odd term. I made sure my kids had food they liked and wanted to eat. When I took food to them, it wasn’t because they were avid gamers. It was beause there was a new game and a marathon going on, and I knew that boy was going to forget to eat, or not want to leave the game to eat, and could get grumpy from hunger. Or it was because there was company and the activity was a competitive game that the kids couldn’t play in that way without extra kids over. I would take food they could all reach and share—something not messy. Something with protein.
People DO feed their guests. :-) But those guests didn’t come over to eat. They came over to play games. So rather than say [insert sing-songy nasal cartoon mom-voice here] “Boys! You need to turn the game off now and come and have lunch,” I put food within reach. Not because they were avid gamers. Not because that was their “eating habit.” Because I wanted to support the activity they were doing.
It’s like taking cold drinks to people who are working outside in the summer.
-=-There are no limits on things like screen time and no judgement that watching YouTube all day, or gaming all day, as not educational.
This is written as though there are rules about lack of limits, and that radical unschooling requires all to state that YouTube all day is educational. It’s a legalistic sort of description of what can be a rich learning environment.
Don’t look at what. Look at why.
-=-On the other hand you have Sandra saying things like "It’s NOT okay to just let a child stay home and call it homeschooling.” What does that mean? Does that mean I have to be proactively making sure he is learning something?-=-
I don’t think it’s “on the other hand.” If a family is standing back, appalled at what seems (from the mom’s description) to be a big life of interaction (online, but online for a child who’s not big into going out), of group projects and research (knowing what’s new in any field is active learning that many professionals don’t even bother with), and if they call that just staying home, and wonder whether he should be in school, or whether they should be making him do differently. that is not the sort of partnership and cooperation, appreciation, abundance and graditude that should be underpinning the game play and reading.
WHY would a child watch TV like a zombie after six or seven hours at school? Escape. Recovery. Privacy/solitude.
Why would an unschooled child watch TV? Because of the many options available, that’s the one that’s interesting to him or her at that moment. It can be turned off, or left on, without regard to “school night” or homework or what day of the week it is. It’s just one of many things, if the child’s life is safe and secure and full of options.
-=-So for example I get comfortable when I hear no limits to screen time because my son (11) is an avid gamer.-=-
Hearing advice to let him play if he wants to should not be the same as “hearing no limits.”
Hear choices. Hear avoidance of arbitrary rules. Hear joy.
-=-My daughter (10) is another example. She is obsessed with horses and is an avid rider. She made our provincial side last year at 9 years of age and competed in the national championships. Almost all her activities involve horses, including her gaming, so there is very little variety. Is this a problem? Should be we worried we are not providing enough alternative stimulation that prevents her from having other interests besides horses?-=-
Any interest or focus will eventually touch on all of the rest of the world, if pursued and explored happily.
More, in another post.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-I may not be making myself as clear as I would like. Trying to summarise again, I get mixed messages sometimes. On one hand, don’t judge, don’t have arbitrary rules, don’t have arbitrary limits, accommodate the desires and needs of the child.-=-
-=-On the other I read comments that imply, don’t just do nothing, staying at home and calling it homeschooling is NOT ok, providing wide and varied stimulation and opportunity is crucial.-=-
-=-Anyone else feeling that way?-=-
I’m going to start at the bottom.
What if nobody else feels that way? You still do.
What if a thousand other people feel that way? Then what? The dichotomy you’ve written will still exist.
-=- I read comments that imply, don’t just do nothing-=-
Has any experienced unschooler with healthy, happy children ever advocated doing nothing?
If anyone in this discussion ever recommended “just” do nothing, that would be jumped on and dismantled. It’s terrible advice.
-=-staying at home and calling it homeschooling is NOT ok, providing wide and varied stimulation and opportunity is crucial.-=-
Do you disagree with that, though? It sounds like your kids are active and learning. Why would you worry, then?
If someone thinks a child is NOT happy, or is NOT learning, but she rejects the idea of school, that seems to me to be a problem. IF a family is not providing options, and a child is on the computer because there’s nothing else to do, the family isn’t doing a very good job of unschooling. If, from a wide and varied array of options and opportunities, the child chooses to be on the computer, THEN it was a choice and can be a great thing.
The dichotomy set up in the e-mail is a false one. First, it personified radical unschooling as a monolithic set of rules. it set up two voices in opposition. But there are millions of voices in the world, and thousands of things a family could be doing, and dozens of options in any one day, UNLESS the parents are dulling down their own minds, or limiting options for some reason. Lack of understanding is a likely cause, and so we try to provide people with tons of clues and ideas to help them understand how they can live rich, happy lives of learning with their children.
Sandra
-=-On the other I read comments that imply, don’t just do nothing, staying at home and calling it homeschooling is NOT ok, providing wide and varied stimulation and opportunity is crucial.-=-
-=-Anyone else feeling that way?-=-
I’m going to start at the bottom.
What if nobody else feels that way? You still do.
What if a thousand other people feel that way? Then what? The dichotomy you’ve written will still exist.
-=- I read comments that imply, don’t just do nothing-=-
Has any experienced unschooler with healthy, happy children ever advocated doing nothing?
If anyone in this discussion ever recommended “just” do nothing, that would be jumped on and dismantled. It’s terrible advice.
-=-staying at home and calling it homeschooling is NOT ok, providing wide and varied stimulation and opportunity is crucial.-=-
Do you disagree with that, though? It sounds like your kids are active and learning. Why would you worry, then?
If someone thinks a child is NOT happy, or is NOT learning, but she rejects the idea of school, that seems to me to be a problem. IF a family is not providing options, and a child is on the computer because there’s nothing else to do, the family isn’t doing a very good job of unschooling. If, from a wide and varied array of options and opportunities, the child chooses to be on the computer, THEN it was a choice and can be a great thing.
The dichotomy set up in the e-mail is a false one. First, it personified radical unschooling as a monolithic set of rules. it set up two voices in opposition. But there are millions of voices in the world, and thousands of things a family could be doing, and dozens of options in any one day, UNLESS the parents are dulling down their own minds, or limiting options for some reason. Lack of understanding is a likely cause, and so we try to provide people with tons of clues and ideas to help them understand how they can live rich, happy lives of learning with their children.
Sandra
Jo Isaac
==. There have been threads where parents accommodate almost any eating habits, including taking food to the rooms of avid gamers and trying to provide food they will/want to eat. ==
I do this almost every day - but i'm not 'accomodating eating habits', I'm making sure my son has food he likes, drinks, and can continue to do what he's absorbed in at that moment (at the moment, that is also playing ARK with his friends [😊] )
==On the other hand you have Sandra saying things like "It's NOT okay to just let a child stay home and call it homeschooling." What does that mean? Does that mean I have to be proactively making sure he is learning something?==
It's not okay to just let a child stay home and not be a partner, a facilitator, sure. You are looking for rules, when you need to be looking at your children. Are they happy? Are they learning? Are you facilitating their interests? It sounds like they are, and you are, from what you wrote. But you are still worried? Which suggests more deschooling is needed for you - more reading, watching, waiting, repeat.
==So for example I get comfortable when I hear no limits to screen time because my son (11) is an avid gamer. ==
Other people telling you 'no limits to screen time' shouldn't make you 'comfortable'. A happy, engaged kid should (although I still don't think 'comfortable is the right word)
==My daughter (10) is another example. She is obsessed with horses and is an avid rider. She made our provincial side last year at 9 years of age and competed in the national championships. Almost all her activities involve horses, including her gaming, so there is very little variety. Is this a problem? Should be we worried we are not providing enough alternative stimulation that prevents her from having other interests besides horses?==
Example of what? That sounds like lots of variety - just because it all involves horses doesn't mean there is no 'variety' - she's riding horses, competing, gaming...
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I do this almost every day - but i'm not 'accomodating eating habits', I'm making sure my son has food he likes, drinks, and can continue to do what he's absorbed in at that moment (at the moment, that is also playing ARK with his friends [😊] )
==On the other hand you have Sandra saying things like "It's NOT okay to just let a child stay home and call it homeschooling." What does that mean? Does that mean I have to be proactively making sure he is learning something?==
It's not okay to just let a child stay home and not be a partner, a facilitator, sure. You are looking for rules, when you need to be looking at your children. Are they happy? Are they learning? Are you facilitating their interests? It sounds like they are, and you are, from what you wrote. But you are still worried? Which suggests more deschooling is needed for you - more reading, watching, waiting, repeat.
==So for example I get comfortable when I hear no limits to screen time because my son (11) is an avid gamer. ==
Other people telling you 'no limits to screen time' shouldn't make you 'comfortable'. A happy, engaged kid should (although I still don't think 'comfortable is the right word)
==My daughter (10) is another example. She is obsessed with horses and is an avid rider. She made our provincial side last year at 9 years of age and competed in the national championships. Almost all her activities involve horses, including her gaming, so there is very little variety. Is this a problem? Should be we worried we are not providing enough alternative stimulation that prevents her from having other interests besides horses?==
Example of what? That sounds like lots of variety - just because it all involves horses doesn't mean there is no 'variety' - she's riding horses, competing, gaming...
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
LEAH ROSE
<<<I get mixed messages sometimes. On one hand, don’t judge, don’t have arbitrary rules, don’t have arbitrary limits, accommodate the desires and needs of the child.
On the other I read comments that imply, don’t just do nothing, staying at home and calling it homeschooling is NOT ok, providing wide and varied stimulation and opportunity is crucial.>>>
"Doing nothing" from an unschooling POV is disengagement on the parents' part. It isn't looking at a child's focused passion and seeing it as narrow or not good enough. When an unschooling parent talks about the problem of "doing nothing" they are really talking about not engaging with the child, about leaving him or her to fend for themselves rather than paying attention to what their child loves and is drawn to and providing lots of it, and looking for other things the child might like and offering those.
Maybe your confusion stems from not having truly let go of the mainstream presumption that playing a lot of video games constitutes "doing nothing." If so, you would benefit from further deschooling. Don't think of "time well spent" as requiring measurable evidence that something happened/was gained/was produced. That's a schooly idea. Look for time spent with a child engaged, immersed, self-propelled. THAT is evidence that learning is happening. Sounds to me like your kids are learning. :)
Cheers!
~ Leah
Jo Isaac
==On the one hand radical unschooling tries not to enforce rules, judge activities as good or bad, educational or not etc.==
==On the other hand you have Sandra saying things like "It's NOT okay to just let a child stay home and call it homeschooling." What does that mean? Does that mean I have to be proactively making sure he is learning something?==
Leah pulled these two sentences out, and I thought it was interesting to look at them side by side. You are setting these things up to be a dichotomy, whereas I don't see a dichotomy at all. Both statements can be true at the same time, the ideas in them are not mutually exclusive.
A parent who is implementing radical unschooling principles should not be enforcing arbitrary rules, should not be judging the activities and passions of their children as bad, and shouldn't be thinking about 'educational' at all, but should look for learning.
At the same time, a parent who is implementing radical unschooling principles should not think it's radical unschooling if a child is just left to their own devices and not partnered and supported by their parent. Watch them play video games, ask them if they need anything, bring them nice food and drinks, see if they want to go to a gaming convention, find other games they might like, ask if they'd like to go to a museum and see actual dinosaurs or do a dinosaur/fossil dig. Proactively make sure you are not 'just letting them stay home and calling it unschooling'. You can still make life sparkly even if they mostly choose to stay home and play ARK [😊] I know, because we do.
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
==On the other hand you have Sandra saying things like "It's NOT okay to just let a child stay home and call it homeschooling." What does that mean? Does that mean I have to be proactively making sure he is learning something?==
Leah pulled these two sentences out, and I thought it was interesting to look at them side by side. You are setting these things up to be a dichotomy, whereas I don't see a dichotomy at all. Both statements can be true at the same time, the ideas in them are not mutually exclusive.
A parent who is implementing radical unschooling principles should not be enforcing arbitrary rules, should not be judging the activities and passions of their children as bad, and shouldn't be thinking about 'educational' at all, but should look for learning.
At the same time, a parent who is implementing radical unschooling principles should not think it's radical unschooling if a child is just left to their own devices and not partnered and supported by their parent. Watch them play video games, ask them if they need anything, bring them nice food and drinks, see if they want to go to a gaming convention, find other games they might like, ask if they'd like to go to a museum and see actual dinosaurs or do a dinosaur/fossil dig. Proactively make sure you are not 'just letting them stay home and calling it unschooling'. You can still make life sparkly even if they mostly choose to stay home and play ARK [😊] I know, because we do.
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-On the other hand you have Sandra saying things like "It's NOT okay to just let a child stay home and call it homeschooling." What does that mean? Does that mean I have to be proactively making sure he is learning something?-=-
-=-What does that mean?-=-
It means LOTS of things. It refers to everything in The Big Book of Unschooling, and all the pages linked at the bottom of nearly every page there. :-)
-=-What does that mean? Does that mean I have to…-=-
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
You don’t have to do anything. There is not a thing that you have to do. As long as you think there IS something you “have to” do, who or what will empower you to make choices? To WANT to do what seems good to do?
-=-Does that mean I have to…-=-
No unschooling inspector will come to your door. :-)
Something written years ago was unearthed by Marta Venturini Machado recently. It was from a post by Pam Sorooshian. First, Pam quoted me:
________________
Sandra Dodd wrote in a discussion some years ago (2011, to be more precise):
"When a family doesn't consider learning the primary goal of unschooling, things can disintegrate pretty quickly. YES, once you get it going kids are learning all the time. But if a family starts with the idea that learning is happening all the time, they might never quite get the learning part of unschooling going. And in that case learning will NOT happen all the time. It's subtle but crucial.”
Pam Sorooshian added:
"Some kind of learning is happening all the time - but not all learning is good. Learning how to sneak food, learning that parents can't be trusted and counted on, learning to think of oneself in negative ways, all sad. Learning that life is boring, hard work, sucks, hurts, is unfair, also sad. Not what unschoolers are trying for.
Human brains are voracious and will feed on whatever is available - unschoolers should be offering interesting experiences, ideas, stimulation, music, logic, conversation, images, movement, discovery, beauty, etc. Brain food in abundance. It requires effort. It requires attention to qualitative and quantitative aspects of learning. Depth and breadth—creating a lifestyle in which kids are offered the opportunity to learn a lot about some things and a little about a lot of things."
________________
-=-What does that mean?-=-
It means LOTS of things. It refers to everything in The Big Book of Unschooling, and all the pages linked at the bottom of nearly every page there. :-)
-=-What does that mean? Does that mean I have to…-=-
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
You don’t have to do anything. There is not a thing that you have to do. As long as you think there IS something you “have to” do, who or what will empower you to make choices? To WANT to do what seems good to do?
-=-Does that mean I have to…-=-
No unschooling inspector will come to your door. :-)
Something written years ago was unearthed by Marta Venturini Machado recently. It was from a post by Pam Sorooshian. First, Pam quoted me:
________________
Sandra Dodd wrote in a discussion some years ago (2011, to be more precise):
"When a family doesn't consider learning the primary goal of unschooling, things can disintegrate pretty quickly. YES, once you get it going kids are learning all the time. But if a family starts with the idea that learning is happening all the time, they might never quite get the learning part of unschooling going. And in that case learning will NOT happen all the time. It's subtle but crucial.”
Pam Sorooshian added:
"Some kind of learning is happening all the time - but not all learning is good. Learning how to sneak food, learning that parents can't be trusted and counted on, learning to think of oneself in negative ways, all sad. Learning that life is boring, hard work, sucks, hurts, is unfair, also sad. Not what unschoolers are trying for.
Human brains are voracious and will feed on whatever is available - unschoolers should be offering interesting experiences, ideas, stimulation, music, logic, conversation, images, movement, discovery, beauty, etc. Brain food in abundance. It requires effort. It requires attention to qualitative and quantitative aspects of learning. Depth and breadth—creating a lifestyle in which kids are offered the opportunity to learn a lot about some things and a little about a lot of things."
________________
Clare Kirkpatrick
" I still think knowing my number would be good in case he gets lost when we are out or travelling"
Even then, it's not necessary. He knows your name? He knows what 'official' people look like? I talk to my children about finding a shop to go into or speaking to someone who works at the amusement park or whatever. If your family 'plan' is that lost children find a way to get to a police station and you say you'll head to one too, you'll find each other easily with or without phone numbers. Think more creatively - creative thinking is at the heart of unschooling, because otherwise you're just doing things because that's the way they've always been done or because it's the way other people do it rather than because they actually make sense in *your* family. It doesn't make sense to damage your relationship by making him learn your phone number and to make him feel thick because he's clearly struggling to memorise it when you can easily come up with other ways to ensure safety in the unlikely event he gets lost ever.
Clare
Even then, it's not necessary. He knows your name? He knows what 'official' people look like? I talk to my children about finding a shop to go into or speaking to someone who works at the amusement park or whatever. If your family 'plan' is that lost children find a way to get to a police station and you say you'll head to one too, you'll find each other easily with or without phone numbers. Think more creatively - creative thinking is at the heart of unschooling, because otherwise you're just doing things because that's the way they've always been done or because it's the way other people do it rather than because they actually make sense in *your* family. It doesn't make sense to damage your relationship by making him learn your phone number and to make him feel thick because he's clearly struggling to memorise it when you can easily come up with other ways to ensure safety in the unlikely event he gets lost ever.
Clare
Clare Kirkpatrick
You may find it causes real problems if you do something simply because some people on the internet have said it's OK to do it. Understanding how and why unschooling works is so important if it is going to work. Going for it and keeping your fingers crossed that the internet people were right is unlikely to lead to good unschooling.
"Is there any point at which I need to reconsider this approach, such as in after a year or 2 years or 5 years?"
It would be better if you understood this approach better, rather than reconsidering it. If the links to the pages on Sandra's site that I'm thinking of haven't been posted by the end of this thread, I'll come and post them for you.
"Or just wait for him to express a need?"
Unschooling requires parents to be more proactive than just waiting for their child to come up with an interest. But that doesn't mean that you try and get him to learn a thing you think he ought to learn. Instead, try to find ways to make his life richer and more interesting. Connect more with him. Chatting and being close with him will give you 'leads' as to what things might be cool to strew for him. The better you know him, the more you'll be able to bring him cool things that might spark his interest. Even if it doesn't, connection and closeness are important anyway. But 'just waiting' isn't really the spirit of unschooling.
"Do others have stories of children who were introverted like this, perhaps melancholic, but still content/fulfilled and were they able to feel successful and function well as adults (by their own standards)?"
I don't have any adult children yet, but my oldest is introverted in nature at times and has been through phases of melancholia (she's now 12.5). What she's needed during those periods is for me to just be there with her. Sending her interesting things online - showing her I'm thinking of her. Bringing her snacks and drinks. Waking her with a snuggle in bed. Thinking of ways to connect with her that she would feel comfortable with. I would take her out for a coffee just her and me (she has three younger sisters) or shopping. I'd bring her home things I'd seen and thought she'd like. And when she did show an interest in something, I helped her pursue it without going all out over the top, which would invariably send her backwards. She needed not to be feeling the centre of attention or to have too much scrutiny on her interests. She's a private person. And she functions well as a very mature 12.5 year old! And she has lots of passions and interests - she needed the pressure taking off. She needed us all not to be worrying about her or trying surreptitiously to get her interested in things. We strewed things because we thought they were cool and one or more of the children might be interested but not with the ulterior motive of making her into something she wasn't at that time. It wasn't what she needed. What she needed was acceptance and love and connection and if she stumbled upon something that did spark an interest, then that was cool. I think she feared us leaping on any sign of any interest in something and making a big deal of it, though, so we noticed that and were careful to change our ideas and priorities.
Clare
Clare Kirkpatrick
"few specific interests"
"Those activities are: playing video games, building and talking about Bionicles or Transformers, playing with the cat, watching movies, eating, playing outside at home, building Lego creations, watching YouTube videos. Sometimes, when the weather is nice, he likes to go on hikes or visit parks. Sometimes we go swimming. Sometimes, he hangs out at work with his dad."
That's at least 13 interests! That's way more than a few! These are my interests:
- walking- nursing- crochet- knitting- reading- writing about unschooling- dancing- playing the piano
That's only 8! I wonder why you're seeing your son's large array of interests and joyful activities as only 'a few' specific interests? Maybe it would be helpful for you to ask yourself that question?
"what seems like lack of passion in our son"
"the same interests he's had since he was 3"
"He is quite the leader and a very skilled gamer!"
Again, you're not seeing something here. How can these interests of his not be passions if he's been interested in them for years and years? That sounds to me like the very definition of a passion. And to the extent of being seen as a good leader and highly skilled at doing what he loves? If I knew someone who had been following an interest for years and had become highly skilled at it, I'd describe them as being passionate about it. Maybe also ask yourself why you're saying in one sentence that he has no passions and then describing a child who is very deeply passionate about quite a few things?
Clare
Clare Kirkpatrick
"On the one hand radical unschooling tries not to enforce rules, judge activities as good or bad, educational or not etc."
One thing that may help you move closer to understanding unschooling would be to ask yourself what your own idea of 'educational' activities are. Do you mean things that would normally be taught in school? Because those are fairly arbitrary, you know. Someone at some time made up a list of things they think children ought to learn during their childhood and called it a curriculum and then everyone got caught up in the idea because an 'expert' made up the list and from then on in, all those things were seen as 'educational' and everything else wasn't. Unschooling works on the premise that there is learning in everything, therefore everything is educational. When have you ever done a thing you have learned *nothing* from? It's pretty hard to learn nothing as you will find if you ever have a go at 'Learn Nothing Day': http://sandradodd.com/learnnothingday/
Unschooling means creating a situation in which your children can grow up with all their foundation needs met so that their lives are at the optimum for learning potential. Maslow's hierarchy of needs has always been a helpful model for me when thinking about unschooling our children - are our relationships strong? Are they eating plenty? Are they feeling safe and secure? Are they happy? Am I providing lots of opportunities for them to stumble upon things they may discover they have an interest in? Am I helping them to pursue things they are already interested in? If all those things are in place, if all those lower levels of the hierarchy of needs are being met, then learning is just going to happen, and it's going to be rich and deep and valuable learning.
So it's not about not enforcing rules or judging activities as educational or not. It's that enforcing rules and judging activities as educational or not will more than likely get in the way of meeting those foundation needs and not meeting those foundation needs will get in the way of rich, deep, valuable learning and rich, deep, valuable learning is the aim of unschooling.
So when you have an arbitrary rule (for example) and trying to enforce that creates conflict, that creates a bit of damage in your relationship and that makes children feel less secure and trusting, which means they have less learning potential (except learning how to circumvent your rule without your knowing, maybe).
Understanding *why* unschoolers tend not to have enforced arbitrary rules (and other things you've listed) rather than simply knowing *that* they tend not to have enforced arbitrary rules etc. seems to me to be really important if you're going to really get unschooling and be able to do it well.
Clare
One thing that may help you move closer to understanding unschooling would be to ask yourself what your own idea of 'educational' activities are. Do you mean things that would normally be taught in school? Because those are fairly arbitrary, you know. Someone at some time made up a list of things they think children ought to learn during their childhood and called it a curriculum and then everyone got caught up in the idea because an 'expert' made up the list and from then on in, all those things were seen as 'educational' and everything else wasn't. Unschooling works on the premise that there is learning in everything, therefore everything is educational. When have you ever done a thing you have learned *nothing* from? It's pretty hard to learn nothing as you will find if you ever have a go at 'Learn Nothing Day': http://sandradodd.com/learnnothingday/
Unschooling means creating a situation in which your children can grow up with all their foundation needs met so that their lives are at the optimum for learning potential. Maslow's hierarchy of needs has always been a helpful model for me when thinking about unschooling our children - are our relationships strong? Are they eating plenty? Are they feeling safe and secure? Are they happy? Am I providing lots of opportunities for them to stumble upon things they may discover they have an interest in? Am I helping them to pursue things they are already interested in? If all those things are in place, if all those lower levels of the hierarchy of needs are being met, then learning is just going to happen, and it's going to be rich and deep and valuable learning.
So it's not about not enforcing rules or judging activities as educational or not. It's that enforcing rules and judging activities as educational or not will more than likely get in the way of meeting those foundation needs and not meeting those foundation needs will get in the way of rich, deep, valuable learning and rich, deep, valuable learning is the aim of unschooling.
So when you have an arbitrary rule (for example) and trying to enforce that creates conflict, that creates a bit of damage in your relationship and that makes children feel less secure and trusting, which means they have less learning potential (except learning how to circumvent your rule without your knowing, maybe).
Understanding *why* unschoolers tend not to have enforced arbitrary rules (and other things you've listed) rather than simply knowing *that* they tend not to have enforced arbitrary rules etc. seems to me to be really important if you're going to really get unschooling and be able to do it well.
Clare