Earning money
mellingersa@...
My son (7) has never been to school and we have never used rewards (stickers, treats or money) for any accomplishments or help around the house. We all chime in if things need to be done. My husband and I will ask my son to help - sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't help which has never been an issue.
About a year ago my son asked to have some allowance money. He sometimes spends it right away on little things and sometimes saves up for bigger items. It is entirely up to him how to spend it but he will ask me for help with calculating how much more he needs to safe for a certain purchase.
There is no real separation of what we buy for him and what he buys for himself. It's more like if he saved the money he will buy it himself and if he does't have the money and our budget allows it we will pay for it. There have been some really good discussions around money because of his allowance like trying to find the cheapest way of buying something so we can buy more for the same amount of money.
My son asked me yesterday if he could do chores around the house for money - I think he got the idea from his cousin who is payed for chores and good grades in school.
I didn't say anything because I didn't know what to say...... ;)
I really don't want to pay him for help around the house. My husband and I certainly don't pay each other for chores - we don't even really have a list of chores. In general everyone does the things he likes the best, does the best or whatever needs to be done the most at this time. I would like to keep our home a place where family members do things for each other because they like to contribute to the family and not because it is a payed chore. It seems to me the "what is in for me" attitude is plentiful around and I don't feel it fits in well with unschooling principles.
But after thinking about it more I am wondering if his request for earning money was because he truly enjoys buying things with HIS money. Maybe I'm keeping him from learning about how to earn money ? Maybe I'm standing in the way of his discovery of the business world ? I can't think of a lot of things he could do to earn money outside the family at the age of 7 though.
How have others handled this issue ?
Thank you !
Sabine
Sent from myMail for iOS
Sandra Dodd
My collection of older writings about allowance and spending money are here:
http://sandradodd.com/money
http://sandradodd.com/math/allowance
You might also search the archives of this group. (If you already tried that, maybe others could—a few members are whizzes at remembering phrases and finding things.)
Families’ finances and kids’ desires vary quite a bit. Kelly Lovejoy used to recommend that a parent could help a younger child make good money by making a dog-yard clean-up business. Buy vinyl gloves and use plastic grocery bags or whatever, and charge real money. If it’s a job he doesn’t mind and you get customers, soon he could do it without you.
Maybe there’s something else the two of you could do instead of or in addition—yard sale, go to a flea market, make or repair something for others.
It might be a fleeting interest, or he might move quickly to some real moneymaking. There was a boy in Albuquerque years back whose dad made him an attractive snow-cone stand out of plywood. It was big and round on two sides—flat, but circular, and bright blue. Soon they had more than one, and then several, and that child made a TON of snowcone money. It was like a local franchise, seriously. :-)
With Pinterest and the internet, you might be able to find lots of not-crazy, not-expensive possibilities for money-making.
Maybe a one-time gift of enough money for him to spend on something big, and to save (whatever he’s wanting to earn money for) would also satisfy the current need.
Sandra
http://sandradodd.com/money
http://sandradodd.com/math/allowance
You might also search the archives of this group. (If you already tried that, maybe others could—a few members are whizzes at remembering phrases and finding things.)
Families’ finances and kids’ desires vary quite a bit. Kelly Lovejoy used to recommend that a parent could help a younger child make good money by making a dog-yard clean-up business. Buy vinyl gloves and use plastic grocery bags or whatever, and charge real money. If it’s a job he doesn’t mind and you get customers, soon he could do it without you.
Maybe there’s something else the two of you could do instead of or in addition—yard sale, go to a flea market, make or repair something for others.
It might be a fleeting interest, or he might move quickly to some real moneymaking. There was a boy in Albuquerque years back whose dad made him an attractive snow-cone stand out of plywood. It was big and round on two sides—flat, but circular, and bright blue. Soon they had more than one, and then several, and that child made a TON of snowcone money. It was like a local franchise, seriously. :-)
With Pinterest and the internet, you might be able to find lots of not-crazy, not-expensive possibilities for money-making.
Maybe a one-time gift of enough money for him to spend on something big, and to save (whatever he’s wanting to earn money for) would also satisfy the current need.
Sandra
skyjeep@...
An interesting question.
---In [email protected], <Sandra@...> wrote :
I have been following this group for a long time (more than a year) and often I don't need to chime in because I learn from the conversations and the archives when necessary. I'm also a little worried about breaking the rules ;-)
I am struggling with the money thing at the moment. Our kids (10 and 11) get R250 per month allowance, which is about $18. So not a lot of money but compared to their peers in this conservative and relatively poor country, a fortune.
This last weekend I was at a gaming expo with my son. I had warned him for months to save some money for the expo as there would be great spending opportunities. That didn't happen despite me asking him whenever he spend money on gems, crystals, or other online faux online goods. The in-app purchases are such a clever idea that suck youngsters in. And of course at 10/11 years old, the immediate reward feels a lot larger than the potential greater reward some time in the fairly distant future.
So I ended up buying a new mouse, several packs of Pokemon cards, a mousepad, Pokeman card sleeves and storage boxes etc etc. Eventually I started saying no. But knowing this group, and what I am trying to do with unschooling, I was uncomfortable saying no. On the other hand the requests and costs were escalating like crazy.
Bear in mind I paid $300 for tickets worth $80 because they were sold out in minutes when they went on sale and I know my son is obsessed with gaming so this was something I wanted to make happen at any cost.
We also had to travel to the expo, about 400 miles, at more expense (stayed with family so no costs there).
So my question.
Should I be increasing the allowance significantly, advising saving when I know there are future events at which they are going to want money, and then letting the consequences play out when the events come and they have no money?
My instinct is to give them enough monthly allowance that spending now and saving for future large purchases are both practical, and then letting them completely decide how to spend their money but also letting them deal with the consequences when there is no money when these events come up.
Surely part of unschooling and learning is that children need to be allowed how to spend their money as they wish, but also then need to learn the consequences and not learn they can spend all their money and then I will dish out more when needed because they have no savings?
What we have been doing is kind of a hybrid, and my instinct says its the worst of both worlds. We give a fair amount of allowance, but probably not enough for regular spending and putting aside some savings. Then we encourage them not to spend it all and to save some for later purchases. Then we usually give out more money when those opportunities like gaming conventions come around, but not as much as they like, and we are in control of yes/no on purchases. They plead and we either cave in or say no and both parties feel bad.
So we (adults) end up being in a position of power, and if we just provide more money then consequences are not learned.
I've rambled on a so I'll leave my thoughts there for now. I would be very interested in feedback.
Thanks
Richard
---In [email protected], <Sandra@...> wrote :
My collection of older writings about allowance and spending money are here:
http://sandradodd.com/money
http://sandradodd.com/math/allowance
You might also search the archives of this group. (If you already tried that, maybe others could—a few members are whizzes at remembering phrases and finding things.)
Families’ finances and kids’ desires vary quite a bit. Kelly Lovejoy used to recommend that a parent could help a younger child make good money by making a dog-yard clean-up business. Buy vinyl gloves and use plastic grocery bags or whatever, and charge real money. If it’s a job he doesn’t mind and you get customers, soon he could do it without you.
Maybe there’s something else the two of you could do instead of or in addition—yard sale, go to a flea market, make or repair something for others.
It might be a fleeting interest, or he might move quickly to some real moneymaking. There was a boy in Albuquerque years back whose dad made him an attractive snow-cone stand out of plywood. It was big and round on two sides—flat, but circular, and bright blue. Soon they had more than one, and then several, and that child made a TON of snowcone money. It was like a local franchise, seriously. :-)
With Pinterest and the internet, you might be able to find lots of not-crazy, not-expensive possibilities for money-making.
Maybe a one-time gift of enough money for him to spend on something big, and to save (whatever he’s wanting to earn money for) would also satisfy the current need.
Sandra
http://sandradodd.com/money
http://sandradodd.com/math/allowance
You might also search the archives of this group. (If you already tried that, maybe others could—a few members are whizzes at remembering phrases and finding things.)
Families’ finances and kids’ desires vary quite a bit. Kelly Lovejoy used to recommend that a parent could help a younger child make good money by making a dog-yard clean-up business. Buy vinyl gloves and use plastic grocery bags or whatever, and charge real money. If it’s a job he doesn’t mind and you get customers, soon he could do it without you.
Maybe there’s something else the two of you could do instead of or in addition—yard sale, go to a flea market, make or repair something for others.
It might be a fleeting interest, or he might move quickly to some real moneymaking. There was a boy in Albuquerque years back whose dad made him an attractive snow-cone stand out of plywood. It was big and round on two sides—flat, but circular, and bright blue. Soon they had more than one, and then several, and that child made a TON of snowcone money. It was like a local franchise, seriously. :-)
With Pinterest and the internet, you might be able to find lots of not-crazy, not-expensive possibilities for money-making.
Maybe a one-time gift of enough money for him to spend on something big, and to save (whatever he’s wanting to earn money for) would also satisfy the current need.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
I hope you have read (or will read) the links to the pages on my site, which have some of the best things written in former discussions.
I noticed two things, in your post.
-=-I am struggling with the money thing at the moment.-=-
Struggling isn’t calm or peaceful. If you rephrase your analysis of where you are and what you’re feeling, some of the problem might dissolve right then and there.
http://sandradodd.com/battle
You used the word “consequences” four times.
That makes me feel sad for your child. He’s being tested, and fails, and deserves to have failed, it sounds like, from your writing.
It’s probably not what you meant, but it’s what you thought, and what you wrote.
Instead of looking at numbers and considering it “a fortune,” think from another angle, about what money is FOR, and what is important in his life right now, and how he will learn and what memories he will have in him when he’s a father himself someday.
Part of building a nest involves money, when there is any.
This has an account of how some money was spent (and not spent) at Disneyland when my kids were younger:
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
Each of my children handled his or her own situation differently, but there was peace.
These two links should be helpful, too:
How much does unschooling cost?
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcost
Building an unschooling nest:
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sandra
I noticed two things, in your post.
-=-I am struggling with the money thing at the moment.-=-
Struggling isn’t calm or peaceful. If you rephrase your analysis of where you are and what you’re feeling, some of the problem might dissolve right then and there.
http://sandradodd.com/battle
You used the word “consequences” four times.
That makes me feel sad for your child. He’s being tested, and fails, and deserves to have failed, it sounds like, from your writing.
It’s probably not what you meant, but it’s what you thought, and what you wrote.
Instead of looking at numbers and considering it “a fortune,” think from another angle, about what money is FOR, and what is important in his life right now, and how he will learn and what memories he will have in him when he’s a father himself someday.
Part of building a nest involves money, when there is any.
This has an account of how some money was spent (and not spent) at Disneyland when my kids were younger:
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
Each of my children handled his or her own situation differently, but there was peace.
These two links should be helpful, too:
How much does unschooling cost?
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcost
Building an unschooling nest:
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm also a little worried about breaking the rules ;-)-=-
The questions seemed about rules, too, with “battle” and “consequences” and “a fortune.”
Instead of looking at rules (what, when, where, who), look at principles (why):
http://sandradodd.com/rules
When you understand WHY there are things parents should buy for unschooled children, and why they might want to also, separately, provide money for the child to manage in his own way, you will be able to help other unschoolers, and not worry about breaking rules in a discussion.
Knowing WHY there are guidelines will make the guidelines themselves unnecessary. Understanding the principles behind my intentions for the discussion would be good practice for understanding the principles behind unschooling, by which parental decisions become easy.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
http://sandradodd.com/lists/
Sandra
The questions seemed about rules, too, with “battle” and “consequences” and “a fortune.”
Instead of looking at rules (what, when, where, who), look at principles (why):
http://sandradodd.com/rules
When you understand WHY there are things parents should buy for unschooled children, and why they might want to also, separately, provide money for the child to manage in his own way, you will be able to help other unschoolers, and not worry about breaking rules in a discussion.
Knowing WHY there are guidelines will make the guidelines themselves unnecessary. Understanding the principles behind my intentions for the discussion would be good practice for understanding the principles behind unschooling, by which parental decisions become easy.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
http://sandradodd.com/lists/
Sandra
Sarah Thompson
My kids get allowance because they like it, but it doesn't have much bearing on what they buy-I make up the difference if we have it and if we don't, we don't. My 5 yo LOVES to get paid for work, so I do, the same way I would pay for something if he set up a store.
But, and this seems big to me right now, I *know* my kids worry about money when I worry about money. I'm worried about money right now, and I can hear it in their comments. I am putting a lot of effort and attention to that problem *in myself*, to seeing the abundance. I got them excited about a karate program that I'm concerned we can't afford (I thought there would be financial support from a family member but I was mistaken). So I sat down with the budget and I found the money, and I told my husband that we wouldn't have resources for other extras this year, and we were both comfortable with that. Feeling confident that I know what I can and can't afford makes it easier to be honest with the kids about what we can get now and what we can put on the wishlist.
I also am making sure that I'm honest with myself about whether I really need something. I just bought concert tickets to my favorite band. They were $200. I'll find money for karate-it's more important than that concert. And the next time the band comes through town, maybe I'll pass it up, or ask for the tickets as a birthday present, or something.
I guess my point it that the way *I* feel about money is going to manifest all over the place, so if I don't want my kids to grow up being obsessed with it in the way I was, I have to fix that in myself.
Sarah
Richard Howes
Thank you Sandra, Sarah and others who have responded. I have followed this group long enough that I should have predicted the answers. I have read most if not all of the link provided before, but its so easy to slip into old ways of thinking.
I’m 46 and my upbringing was very much in the ‘see and not heard’ mould having been born in Rhodesia but living in South Africa since I was 10. Its a very conservative society where most of the parents where I live send their children to barding school because they believe the discipline and control is good for them. I know most of not all of them think the unschooling idea is insane and liberal nonsense and its easy to worry occasionally about whether they might be right and we might be wrong.
Moving from a stance of scarcity to abundance can be challenging when coming from a conservative background. I have read a lot of links about the ‘spoilt child’ fallacy over the last few days, and the discussions make a lot of sense.
Thanks again for the input, advice and assistance.
Regards
Richard
On 13 Oct 2015, at 5:00 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:-=-I'm also a little worried about breaking the rules ;-)-=-
The questions seemed about rules, too, with “battle” and “consequences” and “a fortune.”
Instead of looking at rules (what, when, where, who), look at principles (why):
http://sandradodd.com/rules
When you understand WHY there are things parents should buy for unschooled children, and why they might want to also, separately, provide money for the child to manage in his own way, you will be able to help other unschoolers, and not worry about breaking rules in a discussion.
Knowing WHY there are guidelines will make the guidelines themselves unnecessary. Understanding the principles behind my intentions for the discussion would be good practice for understanding the principles behind unschooling, by which parental decisions become easy.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
http://sandradodd.com/lists/
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=- I have followed this group long enough that I should have predicted the answers.-=-
Predicting the answers is an indication that someone is starting to think in these ways, but it’s not enough to help your kids, who needed the response days or weeks earlier. :-)
-=- I have read most if not all of the link provided before, but its so easy to slip into old ways of thinking.-=-
Reading is worthless on its own, though.
And reading something when it’s baffling and seems wrong is just baffling and seems wrong. Re-reading as more understanding is growing will help.
Read a little.
Try a little.
Wait a while.
Watch.
Read the same things, with new eyes.
http://sandradodd.com/readalittle
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
That second one has stories of people who thought they “got it,” and then they reached a plateau where they felt they REALLY “got it.”
And what’s not said, is that there are other plateaus beyond that.
Another image some people have cited is that it’s like layers of an onion. Each is substantially the same, but there’s more. :-)
Then it helps (for those who have the time and interest) to start responding to the questions of new or less experienced unschoolers, because there’s another sort of understanding that comes with being able to explain things clearly.
Sandra
Predicting the answers is an indication that someone is starting to think in these ways, but it’s not enough to help your kids, who needed the response days or weeks earlier. :-)
-=- I have read most if not all of the link provided before, but its so easy to slip into old ways of thinking.-=-
Reading is worthless on its own, though.
And reading something when it’s baffling and seems wrong is just baffling and seems wrong. Re-reading as more understanding is growing will help.
Read a little.
Try a little.
Wait a while.
Watch.
Read the same things, with new eyes.
http://sandradodd.com/readalittle
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
That second one has stories of people who thought they “got it,” and then they reached a plateau where they felt they REALLY “got it.”
And what’s not said, is that there are other plateaus beyond that.
Another image some people have cited is that it’s like layers of an onion. Each is substantially the same, but there’s more. :-)
Then it helps (for those who have the time and interest) to start responding to the questions of new or less experienced unschoolers, because there’s another sort of understanding that comes with being able to explain things clearly.
Sandra
Cass Kotrba
-=-But after thinking about it more I am wondering if his request for earning money was because he truly enjoys buying things with HIS money-=-
This is timely for me because my 11 year old son spent quite a bit of time helping me with projects yesterday in exchange for money. He is saving up for the new Guitar Hero. He didn't ask me to buy it for him. The game is released on Oct. 20 and he has figured out how much money he needs to make per day in order to reach $100.
A couple of years ago he came up with the idea of earning money and saving it for large purchases on his own. It's something that he does about 2-3 a year. Once I offered to just give him the money and it made him sad. He enjoys setting a goal for himself, working hard and then getting his reward. It makes him feel capable and powerful. Often, when he wants something he will ask for something and I will get it if I can. Other times he asks me for jobs he can do to earn the money. He truly does enjoy buying things with his own money. I think that it is a good experience for him to practice making his own money and saving up for things but that's not the main reason why I agree to it. I like seeing the feelings of pride and accomplishment on his face.
When this first started I had some similar thoughts of "Does this mean he won't help me with things simply because he wants to? Will I have to pay him for everything he does? Will this change the dynamic in the house?" I didn't need to worry. He still helps me out with things the same amount as before and doesn't ask for money or seem to be thinking about money. When he has decided to save up for something he will ask me for extra things to do.
Yesterday he spread crushed oyster shell into a section of my garden and raked it in. Then he helped me open up & vaccum the mechanical parts of our deep freezers. I was down the way goofing off while he did that task, taking pictures of our turkey, and he yelled out "Mom - do you want to see if this is clean enough before I put this cover back on?" "No, if you think it's fine then I'm sure it's fine." He screwed the cover back on by himself. He was so capable and it was adorable. You could see it in his face and his posture that he was proud of himself. Then he distracted our Great Pyrenees while I cut & brushed knots out of her fur. We laughed so hard while we did it. We got a lot of knots out and had a good time. Those weren't tasks he would normally volunteer for but he felt proud of himself for doing them. He felt good putting that money in his wallet.
He has also been collecting change so I asked him if he wanted to take it to the grocery store where they have a machine that counts it and you can get dollars. That was fun, too. He poured the change in and then we watched as the machine tallied the money. It was like playing a slot machine or video game except you knew that you were going to end up a winner! He was hoping for at least $20 and we watched excitedly as the total slowly climbed. In the end he had $35! That was after the machine took it's 10%. He was thrilled. I'm up early writing this email today so that I'll be available to work on some more projects with him when he gets up.
It is fun for both of us that he is old enough now to have developed useful skills and has become quite capable at many things. When he was younger and would ask to help I was aware that I could have done a better job myself in half the amount of time and it wouldn't cost a penny. But that was hardly the point.
-=-This last weekend I was at a gaming expo with my son.-=-
-=- Eventually I started saying no. But knowing this group, and what I am trying to do with unschooling, I was uncomfortable saying no. On the other hand the requests and costs were escalating like crazy.-=-
Our family attended our first Comicon this year and it was a learning experience. None of us had ever been to anything like that and we were not prepared. We walked in with no plan and we will not do that again.
There was so much amazing merchandise and my daughter (then 12) wanted to take home a lot of it! I quickly spent about $150 on her and then I started getting cranky. I was totaling up the costs while she was drooling over more stuff and that ended up with 2 cranky girls! On the way home we talked about why each of us got cranky and agreed we need a plan for next year. We decided that next year Dad & I will give each kid a chunk of money to spend. I will also remind them that the event is coming up as it gets closer so that they can save up money of their own. Each kid will have their own money when we go in next year and will be in control of what they want to spend it on. Dad & I will be there to support them & help carry the packages. :D When their money is gone, it's gone. We are also planning to focus more on the costumes and events being offered in addition to the giant shopping spree. We think this is a good plan and are hoping to have a blast next year.
-Cass
Sandra Dodd
-=- Once I offered to just give him the money and it made him sad. He enjoys setting a goal for himself, working hard and then getting his reward. It makes him feel capable and powerful.-=-
Something interesting happened, over the years, with our three kids who are now in their 20’s. We didn’t decide to treat them the same, or keep tallies on what had been spent where. Some birthdays or Christmasses, one got a big-deal gift, and others didn’t. When they were old enough to know the prices of things, I would usually speak to the other two and say “Holly’s getting this thing, because…. [she needs it, or she didn’t get anything big for her birthday, or whatever]." They understood that another time it might be one of them.
We’ve paid for travel, or assisted, in varying degrees. Holly’s been internationally. Kirby, just to a few conventions in neighboring states. Marty, to some conferences, to visit other families, and we paid for his honeymoon to Puerto Rico. Because from early ages they knew we were paying attention to what each, as an individual liked and needed and wanted, they never complained that in one season or one year things seemed imbalanced.
When Kirby moved to Texas at barely 21, he wanted to do things on his own. When his roommate and he didn’t have enough for utilities deposits because the company hadn’t yet reimbursed their travel claim, he borrowed $500 and paid it back within two weeks. We would’ve given it to him, but he wanted to pay it back.
He was driving a car he had been been given when his uncle died, and when he wanted to get a newer car on his own, we again offered to help him. He wanted to take his own loan, though. He recently paid it off.
Currently, he’s buying a house. His dad made him a 2% loan for the down payment, and they have a one-year lease-to-buy, at the end of which they’ll get a mortgage for the remainder. We could help more, but Kirby wants to do it with Destiny, so that it’s really truly THEIR house. Makes sense.
Holly had a $600 pre-long-trip car service last week and asked her dad to pay half. He just did. :-) She hasn’t asked for money for a long time, and so when she asked, he helped. She was helping someone move to Oregon, for $500, and didn’t like the idea of spending MORE than that to get the truck ready for the journey.
When they were little, we helped if they needed it. Now, if any of them really needed help and asked, we would help even if we needed to take a loan ourselves. Gradually, after many years of small practice, a few disappointments, some goofs, they had real experience and good memories by the time they were using money they earned for “adult” things.
Sandra
Something interesting happened, over the years, with our three kids who are now in their 20’s. We didn’t decide to treat them the same, or keep tallies on what had been spent where. Some birthdays or Christmasses, one got a big-deal gift, and others didn’t. When they were old enough to know the prices of things, I would usually speak to the other two and say “Holly’s getting this thing, because…. [she needs it, or she didn’t get anything big for her birthday, or whatever]." They understood that another time it might be one of them.
We’ve paid for travel, or assisted, in varying degrees. Holly’s been internationally. Kirby, just to a few conventions in neighboring states. Marty, to some conferences, to visit other families, and we paid for his honeymoon to Puerto Rico. Because from early ages they knew we were paying attention to what each, as an individual liked and needed and wanted, they never complained that in one season or one year things seemed imbalanced.
When Kirby moved to Texas at barely 21, he wanted to do things on his own. When his roommate and he didn’t have enough for utilities deposits because the company hadn’t yet reimbursed their travel claim, he borrowed $500 and paid it back within two weeks. We would’ve given it to him, but he wanted to pay it back.
He was driving a car he had been been given when his uncle died, and when he wanted to get a newer car on his own, we again offered to help him. He wanted to take his own loan, though. He recently paid it off.
Currently, he’s buying a house. His dad made him a 2% loan for the down payment, and they have a one-year lease-to-buy, at the end of which they’ll get a mortgage for the remainder. We could help more, but Kirby wants to do it with Destiny, so that it’s really truly THEIR house. Makes sense.
Holly had a $600 pre-long-trip car service last week and asked her dad to pay half. He just did. :-) She hasn’t asked for money for a long time, and so when she asked, he helped. She was helping someone move to Oregon, for $500, and didn’t like the idea of spending MORE than that to get the truck ready for the journey.
When they were little, we helped if they needed it. Now, if any of them really needed help and asked, we would help even if we needed to take a loan ourselves. Gradually, after many years of small practice, a few disappointments, some goofs, they had real experience and good memories by the time they were using money they earned for “adult” things.
Sandra
Clare Kirkpatrick
"Something interesting happened, over the years, with our three kids who are now in their 20’s. We didn’t decide to treat them the same, or keep tallies on what had been spent where. Some birthdays or Christmasses, one got a big-deal gift, and others didn’t. When they were old enough to know the prices of things, I would usually speak to the other two and say “Holly’s getting this thing, because…. [she needs it, or she didn’t get anything big for her birthday, or whatever]." They understood that another time it might be one of them."
"When they were little, we helped if they needed it. Now, if any of them really needed help and asked, we would help even if we needed to take a loan ourselves. "
This is what we've always done and/or intended to do for our children and it's what my grandparents did for theirs and my parents still do for us. We already see in our children (7, 8, 10 and 12) a very mature understanding of money and of our approach to meeting their individual needs and wants rather than an adherence to always treating them the same.
Yesterday, I came home from a trip out with a friend with one carton of apple juice left. My youngest (7) was hanging around chatting with me and I offered her the juice as she was there. Later, when the 8 year old asked her where she got it and was told, she simply said 'oh cool! That's kind of Mummy' and smiled. She knew that if she wanted one, I would arrange asap to get her one. No cries of 'it's not fair!' or anything like that.
When they have their own money - birthday presents, for example - they are frequently incredibly generous with it, wanting to buy each other or their dad and me small gifts. They really look forward to the 'present choosing and buying' part of the lead up to Christmas or birthdays.
They've asked for our help to find ways to earn money in the past and we've found jobs for them or their grandparents have. But we've also helped them top up savings as needed/wanted.
As with anything in an unschooling family, if you watch your children and listen to them and then ask yourself 'which option here will bring the most joy and the most connection under the circumstances' and choose that one, always working towards unpicking the circumstances in order to create more joyful, more connecting options available, you'll probably be doing the right thing.
We are not rich. For us, at times, the most joyful, connecting option is often to commiserate with a disappointed child when we can't see a way to afford something right now; to be honest but compassionate with them. We make plans with them about how we can get to a place where we could afford the thing and commit to those plans. They trust us. They know we want to help them and take seriously the need to find a way to do so. This approach helps them move through disappointment to a place of joyful anticipation and it strengthens our relationship through empathy and trust-building.
The constant unpicking of our approach to our finances and ideas about affordability has reduced the number of times that the children are disappointed to a minimum and when they are disappointed, it doesn't last long because they have a deep understanding of the situation and trust in our commitment to whatever plan we make to be able to afford the thing as soon as possible. This is thanks to years of honesty and unpicking and making the most joyful, most connecting choice in each moment.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
skyjeep@...
---The constant unpicking of our approach to our finances and ideas about affordability has reduced the number of times that the children are disappointed to a minimum and when they are disappointed, it doesn't last long because they have a deep understanding of the situation and trust in our commitment to whatever plan we make to be able to afford the thing as soon as possible. This is thanks to years of honesty and unpicking and making the most joyful, most connecting choice in each moment.
---
Great feedback, thank you. I think part of the understanding as parent moving from scarcity to abundance attitude is that kids are likely to binge initially before understanding the playing field has changed and that this is not necessary.
I remember reading about Sudbury Valley when it started and kids literally sitting doing nothing for days, weeks or more as they tested how long it would take for the adults to cave in and start telling them what to do. Once they realised that was not going to happen they started doing things - things they wanted to do. So they binged on "I'm allowed to do nothing" until they realised they really were (mostly) free and didn't have to.
In the case of money, removing controls (withing budgets etc) will likely initially lead to binging until there is realisation and acceptance that because the door is always open so to speak, there is no need to grab as much as possible before its slammed closed again.
Again, thank you for the feedback and enlightening conversation.
skyjeep@...
---I really don't want to pay him for help around the house. My husband and I certainly don't pay each other for chores - we don't even really have a list of chores. In general everyone does the things he likes the best, does the best or whatever needs to be done the most at this time. I would like to keep our home a place where family members do things for each other because they like to contribute to the family and not because it is a payed chore. It seems to me the "what is in for me" attitude is plentiful around and I don't feel it fits in well with unschooling principles.
But after thinking about it more I am wondering if his request for earning money was because he truly enjoys buying things with HIS money. Maybe I'm keeping him from learning about how to earn money ? Maybe I'm standing in the way of his discovery of the business world ? I can't think of a lot of things he could do to earn money outside the family at the age of 7 though.
How have others handled this issue? ---
An interesting question. My kids ask for ways to earn money all the time and we also have the philosophy that doing your share around the house is the right thing to do, and as we also point out, my wife and I do things all the time and don't pay each other.
Our stance has been to encourage the kids to look for ways to earn money online. This can be done at any age, and while not easy, is possible. We have encourages our kids to start YouTube channels for their gaming and work towards building enough of an audience to generate income.
We do pay an allowance, so they have their own money, but my daughter is now a provincially ranked in show jumping and as you can imagine, the stuff she wants to buy (mainly horse tack) is not cheap. We pay for all the essentials and more but often she wants different reins, bits, cosmetic tack like ear covers etc.
My son is a gaming fanatic and the computer needs to be upgraded from time to time but the ongoing costs are for new games and game addons.
So they want to earn more money and I want to support that, but as you have done, often question the right way to go about that.
Regards
Richard
skyjeep@...
Great feedback, thanks Sandra.
Rereading my email I see all the negative language. I realise part of the concern stems from my own poor money management. Between my wife and I we earn quite a lot of money, and as a result and probably because of our own upbringing to an extent, we budget poorly.
So as I read your links and write about this I realise that my concern is that my children do not learn the right attitude and values regarding money. And yet the natural instinct is to fix them and not me/us.
Leading by example is obviously essential and I am not doing that at the moment with regard to money management.
Thanks again.
Richard
Sandra Dodd
-=-
In the case of money, removing controls (withing budgets etc) will likely initially lead to binging until there is realisation and acceptance that because the door is always open so to speak, there is no need to grab as much as possible before its slammed closed again.
-=-
Then don’t “remove controls.”
Make incremental changes based on your new understanding.
Treat each instance as new and unique, instead of “removing” what you’re doing.
And “control” is a problem in every direction. You’re thinking of yourself as “controlling” something, or someone, but you will move to a new plane of understanding when you drop that in favor of making better choices, in small moments.
Gradual change and thinking about “control” can help you, if you will read these openly, slowly, thoughtfully. Whether they’re new to you, or if you read them twice before, don’t tell me. Just go there, and let the ideas start to put light on where you’re worried and stuck.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/control
If a parent becomes increasingly better at seeing many factors at every decisionmaking point, there is nothing for the child to binge about or to react to.
Casting situations in a win/lose, reactionary way means there is more adversity than partnership.
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
It’s not a switch you flip, it’s a change in awareness and methodology of thought.
Sandra
In the case of money, removing controls (withing budgets etc) will likely initially lead to binging until there is realisation and acceptance that because the door is always open so to speak, there is no need to grab as much as possible before its slammed closed again.
-=-
Then don’t “remove controls.”
Make incremental changes based on your new understanding.
Treat each instance as new and unique, instead of “removing” what you’re doing.
And “control” is a problem in every direction. You’re thinking of yourself as “controlling” something, or someone, but you will move to a new plane of understanding when you drop that in favor of making better choices, in small moments.
Gradual change and thinking about “control” can help you, if you will read these openly, slowly, thoughtfully. Whether they’re new to you, or if you read them twice before, don’t tell me. Just go there, and let the ideas start to put light on where you’re worried and stuck.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/control
If a parent becomes increasingly better at seeing many factors at every decisionmaking point, there is nothing for the child to binge about or to react to.
Casting situations in a win/lose, reactionary way means there is more adversity than partnership.
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
It’s not a switch you flip, it’s a change in awareness and methodology of thought.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Our stance has been to encourage the kids to look for ways to earn money online. This can be done at any age, and while not easy, is possible. We have encourages our kids to start YouTube channels for their gaming and work towards building enough of an audience to generate income.
-=-
It sounds like another opportunity to fail, though. And while it might be fun in the longrun (if they’re interested, IF they like it, and if it’s successful), it shouldn’t be a way to put off what they need and want today.
-=-So they want to earn more money and I want to support that, but as you have done, often question the right way to go about that.-=-
and from another post, same writer:
-=- I realise that my concern is that my children do not learn the right attitude and values regarding money.-=-
“The” singular way or “the” singular attitude is also an opportunity to fail.
But worse than “the” is “right.”
Replace “right” with “better” and then you can improve ten times a day, instead of failing constantly to do “the right” thing, with “the right” attitude.
http://sandradodd.com/betterchoice.html
Sandra
Our stance has been to encourage the kids to look for ways to earn money online. This can be done at any age, and while not easy, is possible. We have encourages our kids to start YouTube channels for their gaming and work towards building enough of an audience to generate income.
-=-
It sounds like another opportunity to fail, though. And while it might be fun in the longrun (if they’re interested, IF they like it, and if it’s successful), it shouldn’t be a way to put off what they need and want today.
-=-So they want to earn more money and I want to support that, but as you have done, often question the right way to go about that.-=-
and from another post, same writer:
-=- I realise that my concern is that my children do not learn the right attitude and values regarding money.-=-
“The” singular way or “the” singular attitude is also an opportunity to fail.
But worse than “the” is “right.”
Replace “right” with “better” and then you can improve ten times a day, instead of failing constantly to do “the right” thing, with “the right” attitude.
http://sandradodd.com/betterchoice.html
Sandra
Sarah Thompson
"We manage money poorly."
I was expressing regret and frustration to a friend about feeling that my financial risks hadn't been wise ones (our first home purchase, business ventures, dreams pursued that turned out to be the "wrong" dreams), and he said, "education costs money." That helped me a lot. It helped me to see that I hadn't made foolish choices, I'd made choices that were entirely consistent with where I was developmentally, and all those choices made me wiser.
Learning financial management is essential for most people, so like any essential skill, with good support kids *will* acquire it.
Sarah
Sandra Dodd
-=-Learning financial management is essential for most people, so like any essential skill, with good support kids *will* acquire it.-=-
Yes. I’m so happy my kids had money to practice with, growing up.
Some of it is very likely genetic, too. My husband is very careful with money, and all three of my kids are more careful than I am, not from talking about it, but from having certain personality traits, I think. YES, practice helps, and maturity helps and it’s great to be able to ask others for advice.
Probably the worst thing would be false paucity—for a parent to withhold money the child knows about, just to do it. Best to keep money separate and not let them know that you have some that they can’t have any of, I think.
A few families, years back, went too far with this partnership and choices, to say that their children had as much say over how money was spent as anyone else in the family. That seems wrong, and dangerous, and something the parents should never have offered. Children might not care anything about retirement funds or insurance. Most people in their 20’s have a hard time caring. :-)
Parents have a duty and responsibility involving shelter, food, clothing, health care. Children shouldn’t even know about those costs, when they’re little. Let them play!
But learning in their own way, gradually, without pressure or fear, seems guaranteed to be beneficial for the future when numbers are larger and they’re the senior partners in some relationship, rather than the junior partner.
Sandra
Yes. I’m so happy my kids had money to practice with, growing up.
Some of it is very likely genetic, too. My husband is very careful with money, and all three of my kids are more careful than I am, not from talking about it, but from having certain personality traits, I think. YES, practice helps, and maturity helps and it’s great to be able to ask others for advice.
Probably the worst thing would be false paucity—for a parent to withhold money the child knows about, just to do it. Best to keep money separate and not let them know that you have some that they can’t have any of, I think.
A few families, years back, went too far with this partnership and choices, to say that their children had as much say over how money was spent as anyone else in the family. That seems wrong, and dangerous, and something the parents should never have offered. Children might not care anything about retirement funds or insurance. Most people in their 20’s have a hard time caring. :-)
Parents have a duty and responsibility involving shelter, food, clothing, health care. Children shouldn’t even know about those costs, when they’re little. Let them play!
But learning in their own way, gradually, without pressure or fear, seems guaranteed to be beneficial for the future when numbers are larger and they’re the senior partners in some relationship, rather than the junior partner.
Sandra
Teri DeMarco
…. "Learning financial management is essential for most people, so like any essential skill, with good support kids *will* acquire it.”
… And kids who are given the opportunity to buy things, regret purchases, save money, receive financial support, will be way ahead of the game than those who are first trying to learn these lessons a little older, when buying a house or starting a business.
Teri D
___________________________________
Teri DeMarco
Mom to Cole & Wyatt (9) & Emily (7)
"Maybe the way we change the world is by raising better kids and being more attentive to those kids. And, um, maybe that's how we change the world instead of by writing a punk rock song. Maybe we just be better parents."
~Jim Lindberg, former lead singer, Pennywise
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
<<<<<<<<<My son is a gaming fanatic and the computer needs to be upgraded from time to time but the ongoing costs are for new games and game addons.>>>>>>>>>
____________________My son is a 13 year old gamer . A couple years ago he save all the money he could, he would sold toys/things and even his sister gave him some money so he could build a decent gaming computer. We gave him some money that we could and he is still very happy about his computer.A couple months ago I gave him a new heat sink fan so he could overclock his CPU .Sometimes he uses his money for buying games.He bought a new PS4 by selling his PS3 and adding some money he saved/was gifted to it. Those are all big purchases we just cannot afford.Now I do give him games. His sister used to do horseback riding and piano lessons for about $200 a month so when my son asked for a game I gave him. Why would one be more important than the other? He is learning so much gaming and he is happy and joyful.I think video games are wonderful and they are his passion.He is very conscientious about sales , prices, deals and so on. He looks for all of it before making a decision.A couple weeks ago my husband and daughter went to the World Dairy Expo for 2 days and my son did a lot of farm chores so they could go.Every night he also feeds heifers and does farm chores to help his dad. The farm just gave him his first pay and he has it sitting in his drawer. He has been wanting to upgrade his video cad and now he can! But he is sitting on it and still thinking about it.He was actually surprised with the money and told me his dad had just given him those crisp 100 dollar bills. He did not realize they were for paying him to help.I am amazed at him sometimes. All the thought he puts into purchases. More and more he is so much more careful with money and mindful of buying then I was at his age and I was never a big spender.When he was young we were making more money and I used to buy him presents everyday if he wanted! He has 51 Thomas the Tank Engines and that is only counting the wood ones and not counting the carsHe was the child I gave everything I could when he asked. Sure what he likes now are much more expensive than toys :)Both my kids have declined me buying them something! That is amazing. What child turns down a toy?When my daughter was little things were different with the economy and our farm . She loved to buy and buy and our budged was nonexistent !I still found ways to buy her tons of the toys she loved. Thrift stores, Craigslist, yard sales , eBay.She was searching eBay as young as 4 on her own.Thursdays were 50% off out local Goodwill thrift store for kid's toys and clothes.I found lots of dress up clothes for her for nothing and we would have maybe 2 or 5 dollars and we would fill up the cart with what she wanted and then pick what she wanted the most up to how much we had. She got to decide if those Barbies were going home or the My LiTtle Pony !That made her feel abundance and joy to get many toys .Our huge collection of plush toys yielded so much joy and pretend play for both my kids! All for very little money!My daughter is as good with money as her brother is and they had very different experiences.What they had in common was feeling abundance, generous parents and knowing that if we could not get them something they really wanted right away we would try hard to find a way to, be buying used, saving, deals .Both my kids will research something they want and look for prices, deals, sales, and other ways to be able to make the best purchase.My daughter also saved this year for a big purchase! She bought a Jersey Heifer calf on a sale.That was way more than the PS 4 my son bought but she has been doing chores at the farm way longer. She does it because she likes it and would do it anyway. She does like to have her money.This year she is no longer an Unschooler but my son is. ( just thought I would add that)Alex Polikwosky