Violence and Video Games
Don Loiacano
In no way can I defend Julie. I do wish I had written first, however.
I do want to say that I am disheartened by all the defense of video game violence in the name of 'fun' and 'learning'. The fact that something is 'fun' should not be the end-all, be-all with how someone spends their time.
Would we be having this same conversation if it was a game where you got points for every vagina or rectum you violated? I guess it wouldn't matter since it is all 'pretend' and good old fashioned 'fun'?
Would you want your 7 [or 17 ] year old scoring points in a game for this behavior [or for that matter, your 45 year old boss or spouse]? Aren't there better options for fun that you can research WITH your child [friend, spouse, neighbor], ones that don't encourage companies profiting from 'giving the people what they want'?
Whether or not someone turns out okay in life because they learned from grand theft auto is beside the point. Lots of people have become successful with horrible upbringings and vice versa.
I can say it without ranting and raving AND without believing in an afterlife. There are so many other things to do with your time than have 'fun' based on violence; and there's no need to squash anyone's independence to get that point across. Setting an example is a good start.
take care,
Don Loiacano
Sandra Dodd
-=-I do want to say that I am disheartened by all the defense of video game violence in the name of 'fun' and 'learning'. The fact that something is 'fun' should not be the end-all, be-all with how someone spends their time. -=-
Maybe not, but for unschooling, if they're learning (not "learning," but LEARNING!) that CAN be the end-all and be-all of unschooling, and if it's fun too, and the family is at peace, that is ideal.
-=-Would we be having this same conversation if it was a game where you got points for every vagina or rectum you violated? -=-
IS there such a game, or is this something you thought up in your head and decided to put in writing? It's gross. We could all think up a disgusting premise for an imaginary video game, but I really do NOT think that's a good use of time or energy or thought. Be more positive and sweet with your thoughts. http://sandradodd.com/negativity
-=-Would you want your 7 [or 17 ] year old scoring points in a game for this behavior [or for that matter, your 45 year old boss or spouse]?-=-
I think you've created a hypothetical, a straw-man, a red herring.
-=-Aren't there better options for fun that you can research WITH your child [friend, spouse, neighbor], ones that don't encourage companies profiting from 'giving the people what they want'?-=-
There are thousands of ideas on my website. Here:
http://sandradodd.com/deblewis has lots of lists of things to do.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists has a way to comb through ideas to come up with ways to checklist learning
Are you JUST looking at this discussion and NOT following any of the links and doing other reading?
-=-Whether or not someone turns out okay in life because they learned from grand theft auto is beside the point.-=-
It was not beside the point of the original question. It was very TO the point.
-=- Lots of people have become successful with horrible upbringings and vice versa.-=-
And vice versa? Lots of people have become horrible with successful upbringings? :-)
Write carefully, please.
-=-There are so many other things to do with your time than have 'fun' based on violence; and there's no need to squash anyone's independence to get that point across. Setting an example is a good start. -=-
My kids never owned Grand Theft Auto, but they played it at other people's houses a bit. They played all the video games they wanted, though, from the first game we had which was Playroom, by Brøderbund, in black and white (with a couple to get the color copy at a discount when it was released. We got an original Nintendo before we knew we would be unschooling. Our kids were involved in lots of activities, art, table games, collectible card games, visiting back and forth with other kids, having jobs when they were 14, 15 and 16, respectively.
There are people here who know my kids, who are now 23-28 years old. They're friendly and peaceful and gentle and nice to people of all ages, as they have been since they were young.
-=-There are so many other things to do with your time than have 'fun' based on violence; and there's no need to squash anyone's independence to get that point across.-=-
There isn't violence in video games.
Do you think action books are "based on violence"? Lord of the Rings? Mysteries? Movies? Star Wars? Spiderman?
How about musicals? West Side Story—those ballet-move gang fights... dance based on violence?
Les Miserables has some "violence" (though nobody gets hurt, they just do the play again the next night).
The Sound of Music has Nazis chasing children around a graveyard.
Do you think playing with water pistols is "'fun' based on violence"?
My kids watched West Side Story, and Romeo and Juliet, but they also watched a LOT of Sesame Street, Barney, My Little Pony, Ninja Turtles, Mr. Rogers. They played video games about elves, and Peter Pan, Mickey Mouse, Simpsons.
-=- Setting an example is a good start. -=-
I know Alex Polikowsky and her family. She has helped unschoolers for years, and her kids are great and her husband is happy. Her son does archery and her daughter shows cows. I don't know who else you're trying to accuse of not setting a good example, but I think you're missing the point.
There are thousands of discussions that will tell parents to control and limit their children. It would be better for people who don't like this discussion to leave and find one they do like than for us to try to comfort and encourage parents who don't want to be more open to the world as it is.
-=-since it is all 'pretend' and good old fashioned 'fun'?-=-
No. You made it up, the one you were referring to. But video games are not "old fashioned fun." They're new, and modern, and they prepare children for the future. Taffy-pulls and hay rides are old fashioned fun. Playing jacks and marbles and rolling hoops—that's old-fashioned fun. My kids did not grow up in 1895, 1915, nor 1965 (though they know a lot of '60s music). Their lives were shared as they grew, so I hope I'm not one of the people you're suggesting didn't set a good example.
Sandra
Stephen Burke
=== But video games are not "old fashioned fun." They're new, and modern, and they prepare children for the future. ===
I have been reading the thread with some interest and I'm glad that Sandra pointed out that games prepare our kids for the future, which I don't think is said enough. Whether it's a violent game or not the act of playing it takes a lot of skill that gets learned over time. The use of the keyboard, mouse, hand eye coordination of figuring out where the pointer is on the screen, the use of a controller to match up the X,Y,Z,RT,LT buttons to the physical ones, the analog versus digital buttons that can control acceleration, braking, etc. All this thinking goes on with my kids when they play games.
I was reading Sandra's book and came across the economics of restricting TV watching, which I think is also related to this topic. http://sandradodd.com/t/economics
One more tidbit I think is related to this topic is from a book on Linus Torvalds the inventor of Linux.
As Torvalds sees it, fun isn't just, well, fun: It's the inevitable, desirable direction of human evolution. "...neither business nor technology will change the basic nature of human needs and yearnings...[which] move away from plain survival through a society based on communication and finally into the realm of entertainment..."
On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 1:05 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-I do want to say that I am disheartened by all the defense of video game violence in the name of 'fun' and 'learning'. The fact that something is 'fun' should not be the end-all, be-all with how someone spends their time. -=-
Maybe not, but for unschooling, if they're learning (not "learning," but LEARNING!) that CAN be the end-all and be-all of unschooling, and if it's fun too, and the family is at peace, that is ideal.-=-Would we be having this same conversation if it was a game where you got points for every vagina or rectum you violated? -=-IS there such a game, or is this something you thought up in your head and decided to put in writing? It's gross. We could all think up a disgusting premise for an imaginary video game, but I really do NOT think that's a good use of time or energy or thought. Be more positive and sweet with your thoughts. http://sandradodd.com/negativity-=-Would you want your 7 [or 17 ] year old scoring points in a game for this behavior [or for that matter, your 45 year old boss or spouse]?-=-I think you've created a hypothetical, a straw-man, a red herring.-=-Aren't there better options for fun that you can research WITH your child [friend, spouse, neighbor], ones that don't encourage companies profiting from 'giving the people what they want'?-=-There are thousands of ideas on my website. Here:http://sandradodd.com/deblewis has lots of lists of things to do.http://sandradodd.com/checklists has a way to comb through ideas to come up with ways to checklist learningAre you JUST looking at this discussion and NOT following any of the links and doing other reading?-=-Whether or not someone turns out okay in life because they learned from grand theft auto is beside the point.-=-It was not beside the point of the original question. It was very TO the point.-=- Lots of people have become successful with horrible upbringings and vice versa.-=-And vice versa? Lots of people have become horrible with successful upbringings? :-)Write carefully, please.-=-There are so many other things to do with your time than have 'fun' based on violence; and there's no need to squash anyone's independence to get that point across. Setting an example is a good start. -=-My kids never owned Grand Theft Auto, but they played it at other people's houses a bit. They played all the video games they wanted, though, from the first game we had which was Playroom, by Brøderbund, in black and white (with a couple to get the color copy at a discount when it was released. We got an original Nintendo before we knew we would be unschooling. Our kids were involved in lots of activities, art, table games, collectible card games, visiting back and forth with other kids, having jobs when they were 14, 15 and 16, respectively.There are people here who know my kids, who are now 23-28 years old. They're friendly and peaceful and gentle and nice to people of all ages, as they have been since they were young.-=-There are so many other things to do with your time than have 'fun' based on violence; and there's no need to squash anyone's independence to get that point across.-=-There isn't violence in video games.Do you think action books are "based on violence"? Lord of the Rings? Mysteries? Movies? Star Wars? Spiderman?How about musicals? West Side Story—those ballet-move gang fights... dance based on violence?Les Miserables has some "violence" (though nobody gets hurt, they just do the play again the next night).The Sound of Music has Nazis chasing children around a graveyard.Do you think playing with water pistols is "'fun' based on violence"?My kids watched West Side Story, and Romeo and Juliet, but they also watched a LOT of Sesame Street, Barney, My Little Pony, Ninja Turtles, Mr. Rogers. They played video games about elves, and Peter Pan, Mickey Mouse, Simpsons.-=- Setting an example is a good start. -=-I know Alex Polikowsky and her family. She has helped unschoolers for years, and her kids are great and her husband is happy. Her son does archery and her daughter shows cows. I don't know who else you're trying to accuse of not setting a good example, but I think you're missing the point.There are thousands of discussions that will tell parents to control and limit their children. It would be better for people who don't like this discussion to leave and find one they do like than for us to try to comfort and encourage parents who don't want to be more open to the world as it is.-=-since it is all 'pretend' and good old fashioned 'fun'?-=-No. You made it up, the one you were referring to. But video games are not "old fashioned fun." They're new, and modern, and they prepare children for the future. Taffy-pulls and hay rides are old fashioned fun. Playing jacks and marbles and rolling hoops—that's old-fashioned fun. My kids did not grow up in 1895, 1915, nor 1965 (though they know a lot of '60s music). Their lives were shared as they grew, so I hope I'm not one of the people you're suggesting didn't set a good example.Sandra
D. Regan
The fact that something is 'fun' should not be the end-all, be-all with how someone spends their time.I don't think anyone here has suggested that fun is the "end-all, be-all".
It's not a good representation of the unschooling that is discussed here. Unschooling is about providing a rich environment in which children can explore what interests and intrigues them, with parents involved as creative, engaged, resourceful partners.
Fun is a factor in choices being made in unschooling homes, but it is not the only factor. It's a very complex flowing interplay with many factors being part of each day's choices - season, time of day, other people, ages, personalities, resources, memories, plans, commitments, weather, yesterday, last week, tomorrow, interest, fun...
This page may assist in grasping the complexity in unschooling.
Aren't there better options for fun that you can research WITH your child [friend, spouse, neighbor], ones that don't encourage companies profiting from 'giving the people what they want'?
There are so many other things to do with your time than have 'fun' based on violence;
I was in a thrift store today and a mother was telling her 6yo twin boys that they could have anything else but things that hurt people. They were really into playing a game with toy guns. Each time the mother reiterated that they couldn't have things that hurt people, the boys kept saying things like "It's only pretend!" "It's not real!". She said "Why do you want to hurt your bother? He's the only one you've got. If he was gone you'd have no-one else." That was where her thinking lead her. It wasn't what the boys were thinking when they had smiley exuberant faces playing together with the toy guns between the aisles. Her comments took them from a happy place playing with toy guns to a sad confusing place in which their mother thought they wanted to hurt each other. She did not understand.
and there's no need to squash anyone's independence to get that point across.
Unschooling is more about exploration and learning than "getting points across" (= teaching?).
Setting an example is a good start.
In my experience kids don't take up the activities of their parents unless they happen to be interested in them as well. My Dad set an example of reading the newspaper in front of me rather a lot, but playing other things interested me more. I knew that reading the paper was something that I could do with my time, but I was more interested in other activities. He may not have understood the appeal of my activities to me, but I'm glad he didn't try to get the point across that I "should" do like he did. And I did end up reading newspapers in a later period in my life when it happened to interest me.
:)
Debbie
Joyce Fetteroll
> On Jan 6, 2015, at 8:49 PM, Don Loiacano loiacanolearningcenter@... wrote:You haven't described the negative effects you've seen happen in your own kids, though.
>
> I do want to say that I am disheartened by all the defense of
> video game violence in the name of 'fun' and 'learning'.
You haven't even described what you believe will happen.
This post is all about your discomfort over imagined effects you didn't or can't articulate.
All fears are worth pulling apart to examine. What is it you fear? Why? What foundation do the fears have?
> Lots of people have become successful with horrible"Successful" I don't think is a good measure of someone's wholeness. It's far too common for people to look successful on the outside but be miserable on the inside. Successful by most measures is all about appearances.
> upbringings and vice versa.
People who rise up despite bad childhoods don't reach adulthood without damage and baggage. I haven't taken a poll of those I know but I would bet they would *gladly* trade in their childhoods for ones that were peaceful and loving.
Better measures of the effects of a childhood are happiness. At peace with who they are. At peace with the world. Internal measures.
> Whether or not someone turns out okay in life becauseKids don't turn out okay because they learn from Grand Theft Auto. They turn out okay because their ideas are supported in a home where they feel safe, loved and respected.
> they learned from grand theft auto is beside the point.
I'm just guessing here but I think you fear that you can't know what's going on inside a child. You fear that damage can happen hidden inside a child without a parent realizing it.
That can be true when parents rely on conventional parenting ideas. Conventional parenting focuses on behavior, getting kids to make the right choices, do the the right things regardless of their feelings. The thought, I assume, is that if kids practice the right way long enough, it will become habit. A big flaw of conventional parenting is that it's designed to get kids to hide what's really going on with them.
That's *nothing* like the mindful parenting that unschoolers do. For unschooling parents being available for kids, hearing what they like and don't like, getting to know who their kids are aren't just good ideas. To be a good unschooling parent is to actively work to be a safe person for kids to come to. Parents often come here for help in seeing the barriers they're unconsciously erecting against communication. They seek help in how they can listen more, see more, understand their children better and fear less.
My daughter has no regrets about the games she played. If there were games she didn't like, she just stopped playing them. She doesn't wish for a different childhood. In fact she has spontaneously said she is so glad she had the childhood she did. People who had horrible upbringings don't say that.
Real life violence is damaging. No child wants to live in a world where problems are solved with guns. But it can be interesting to visit worlds where the rules are different. Movies, documentaries, books, video games all give people a chance to visit worlds where you can travel to different planets, where problems are solved with guns, where zombies are real, where you can catch magically powered creatures to battle others with.
Kids who are safe and loved don't want to live in a world of violence. But many find it interesting to visit different worlds knowing they have a safe, loving home they can come back to any time.
> Aren't there better options for fun that you can research WITH your childUnschooling parents offer options they believe their kids will like. As kids get older, kids add more and more of their own ideas. After kids try out the ideas the *kids* decide whether an option is better or not.
Kids' suggestions aren't given a mindless yes, though! What unschooling parents do is get to know their child. If a parent feels *their child* might find something upsetting, they point it out and talk it over. They may do some research on their own or with the child (depending on the child's preference). (When Kat was young, I checked websites for "moving skeletons" which is the only thing she was bothered by that might pop up in the kinds of movies she liked.) If a child is certain they want to try, then the parent is with them, empowering them with options to skip anything that bothers them, take a break, bail. Unschooling parents help their kids with tools so they don't feel a video game or movie is more powerful than they are.
Every once in a while a parent might say, "Let's wait on that one until you're older." *Because* the parent has shown over and over that they're worthy of the child's trust, the child trusts the parent does want to help them explore this. They know from experience their parent is advising thoughtfully and mindfully and not out of fear.
> ones that don't encourage companies profiting from 'giving the people what they want'?Companies should be giving people what they don't want? Or what *the company* -- or some vague authority who knows what's best for us? -- think is better for people? No company like would be able stay in business for long! ;-)
Profit isn't evil. Being aware of what people like isn't evil. Making a child -- even inadvertently -- feel bad for liking what they like is an unconscious evil that parents keep doing in the name of keeping the child safe. But it's just fear. It fear that the parent is too uncertain of their power to examine.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-Every once in a while a parent might say, "Let's wait on that one until you're older." *Because* the parent has shown over and over that they're worthy of the child's trust, the child trusts the parent does want to help them explore this. They know from experience their parent is advising thoughtfully and mindfully and not out of fear.-=-
If parents say no, no, no, a child stops listening after a few years and learns to get around the parent.
If parents only very rarely say no, a child really hears and trusts it.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
> On Jan 7, 2015, at 2:22 AM, Stephen Burke steve.burke.56@... wrote:Yes. :-) And even more our kids *are* the future. The ideas, the tools they're playing with today are ideas they'll expand on in their own futures.
>
> games prepare our kids for the future, which I don't think is said enough.
It's easy to picture kids as preparing to insert themselves into a technological world. But they'll be less add ons as catalysts for change. They're arriving as people for whom iPads, smart phones, video games, internet are as natural as breathing. For us adults, those are all technological wonders. For our kids, it's not "Wow, I can watch a movie with the touch of a button!" It's, "Why can't I play a video game the same way?" "If a robot can vacuum the floor, why can't one plow the driveway?"
They aren't preparing to work along side the giants of innovation. They'll be all ready to stand on the shoulders of the giants they've grown familiar with throughout their childhoods. :-)
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-In my experience kids don't take up the activities of their parents unless they happen to be interested in them as well. My Dad set an example of reading the newspaper in front of me rather a lot, but playing other things interested me more. I knew that reading the paper was something that I could do with my time, but I was more interested in other activities. He may not have understood the appeal of my activities to me, but I'm glad he didn't try to get the point across that I "should" do like he did. And I did end up reading newspapers in a later period in my life when it happened to interest me.-=-
Debbie Regan wrote that.
Reading the newspaper is a good example of a goal that parents once had for their children. Many newspapers have stopped production, though. It's easier and more efficient, where I live anyway (where one large paper shut down and one still operates, but slimmer than it once was) to get news and local happenings through a television station's website. The news is updated through the day, there is live weather (not yesterday's weather forecast in a graph in black and white), you can find out what's happening in live events and sometimes purchase tickets online. There are older people who haven't learned to use those sites at all, who sit around complaining about the demise of newsprint.
One thing that was held up as "success" and the difference between maturity and function, and sloth and failure was this: Balancing a checkbook.
School math was to help kids balance a checkbook. "Those kids can't even balance a checkbook."
I was born in 1953, and have had checking accounts (usually more than one) since 1970. Paper checks that used to be physically sent back to the bank are just a line item on a computer spreadsheet now. I think only in cases of forgery does anyone go and look at (probably scans of) the checks anymore, and that's a big pain in the butt, no doubt, for bank officers. I have kept my balance in the checkbook ledgers, but have never, ever "balanced my checkbook," and I bet there are people here who don't even know the difference. People here with jobs, cars, houses, children.
Balancing a checkbook is reconciling what's in one's own check ledger with the statement that comes from the bank, noting which checks are still outstanding (which will change the actual balance) and adding in fees, adding the fees to the ledger in the checkbook, marking in the little column that was created to note whether a check had been cashed or not (which most young people ignore, if they even know it exists, if they do use checks). Seeing that the two—the statement and the ledger are "reconciled"—everything on one is noted on the other, or shows (by not being marked) as "outstanding" [not "fantastic," but still out, might be cashed when you least expect it, if ever].
But I never did that. I glanced, I noted glaring discrepancies, I spoke with the bank if there were problems, and if things became totally messed up, I opened a new account and let the other one settle for six months and took out what paltry little amount was in there, if anything.
My husband Keith studied bookkeeping, but never worked in the field. He's great at taxes, and being the treasurer for projects and clubs, and taking care of our money. But he doesn't balance bank accounts, either. He rounds up so there's a cushion, and there is more in there than the ledger says. Once or twice a year he might balance close enough to know how much cushion there is and transfer it to savings.
Those are archaic skills. My kids use debit cards and PayPal. They know how to get to their accounts online. If they need to borrow money, they call their dad who has a joint account with each of them so he can move money easily. Marty rents from us. When he's ready to pay the rent, he calls his dad to make a transfer.
The skills they use are much more like the points on video games than like the pencil-and-paper school math of 40 years ago. The skills they use to take care of their money are more like farming games (literal, like Harvest Moon or Farmville, or figurative, like The Simpsons Tapped Out).
When I was first homeschooling people would discuss whether kids would be able to touch type (type with both hands without looking, which is a secretarial skill used for transcribing handwriting onto a typed sheet, or data entry, which is moving information from hand-written cards to a computer, by looking at the paper instead of the screen). The worried that kids might not be able to do long division, or balance a checkbook. They never wondered how they would learn to use things that weren't yet invented.
Those were the general homeschooling discussions, with the parents who wanted to teach, and manage, control and limit. My kids have trained and supervised some of their kids. :-) (And a variety of schooled kids and some with college degrees, in Kirby's case.)
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=- The use of the keyboard, mouse, hand eye coordination of figuring out where the pointer is on the screen, the use of a controller to match up the X,Y,Z,RT,LT buttons to the physical ones, the analog versus digital buttons that can control acceleration, braking, etc. All this thinking goes on with my kids when they play games. -=-
Yes, but that's small compared to the logic. Deductive reasoning and strategies used in games can make them better thinkers in every situation. There was no real speed thinking involved in school when I was there, except maybe pop quizzes and formal debates. With timers counting down visibly in their perhipheral vision, video gamers do all kinds of tasks, for fun, out of curiosity and joy.
Knowing how to use electronic equipment is as crucial now as knowing how to use a fountain pen was in 1920, but it's much more complicated and vastly more useful.
Hand-eye coordination can be learned with a spoon in a bowl, and later a knife and fork on a dinner plate. Nobody needs video games for that, but the first legit school-approved skill some families conceded that video games might "teach" was "eye-hand coordination" and "small motor skills" (also on school-curriculum checklists for early grades). Playing in the dirt with a stick can accomplish those things, though, too.
I hope no one read what I wrote above and thinks "AH! Then a few pop quizzes, eating with utensils from dishes and playing in the dirt are as good as a computer and a gaming system!" Or if anyone DID think of that, with relief, please go and find a curriculum and be at peace with it!
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-I was reading Sandra's book and came across the economics of restricting TV watching, which I think is also related to this topic. http://sandradodd.com/t/economics -=-
Pam Sorooshian wrote that and let me include it in the book. It's really wonderful, and though it was first written about TV, the examples are about food, and it applies to anything and everything. :-)
Sandra
Karen
This caught my attention:
When my kids are enjoying their time, they are more likely to be learning important things. What I find interesting after introducing principles of radical unschooling to our home is how many ways they can find to have fun! And how many things they can bring fun to, that I would ordinarily not find fun. They have fun riding bikes, singing songs, pulling weeds. They have fun swimming, playing board games, watching tv shows, and doing dishes. Even folding laundry can become fun with the right people and the right attitude. This is what I am learning.
We have played "Cinderella" and taken turns scrubbing the kitchen floor on hands and knees, with the "Stepmother" scolding the scrubber to start over or do a better job, and we laugh. This imaginative play is not so different from pretending to be a character in a video game.
My goal is to be right there to help, whenever I'm needed.
My 7 year old just purchased an older version of GTA when Steam had a sale. She didn't like it- she had some trouble maneuvering and we had trouble trying to figure out where to go and what to do next. But she does like watching videos of others playing. And if/when she gets uncomfortable, she has a button that stops everything instantly. That's pretty powerful.
Karen Angstadt
Sent from my iPad
>>"The fact that something is 'fun' should not be the end-all, be-all with how someone spends their time"<<And while this may be true at some times, for some people, having "fun" is actually quite important to my kids. And it turns out that I enjoy watching them have fun and having fun with them. Fun is.... well, it's fun.
When my kids are enjoying their time, they are more likely to be learning important things. What I find interesting after introducing principles of radical unschooling to our home is how many ways they can find to have fun! And how many things they can bring fun to, that I would ordinarily not find fun. They have fun riding bikes, singing songs, pulling weeds. They have fun swimming, playing board games, watching tv shows, and doing dishes. Even folding laundry can become fun with the right people and the right attitude. This is what I am learning.
We have played "Cinderella" and taken turns scrubbing the kitchen floor on hands and knees, with the "Stepmother" scolding the scrubber to start over or do a better job, and we laugh. This imaginative play is not so different from pretending to be a character in a video game.
My goal is to be right there to help, whenever I'm needed.
My 7 year old just purchased an older version of GTA when Steam had a sale. She didn't like it- she had some trouble maneuvering and we had trouble trying to figure out where to go and what to do next. But she does like watching videos of others playing. And if/when she gets uncomfortable, she has a button that stops everything instantly. That's pretty powerful.
Karen Angstadt
Sent from my iPad
Sandra Dodd
-=-They aren't preparing to work along side the giants of innovation. They'll be all ready to stand on the shoulders of the giants they've grown familiar with throughout their childhoods. :-)-=-
For the past 8+ years my son Kirby (28) has worked for Blizzard Entertainment, having four promotions and lots of responsibility from the very first day. He has given notice that he will leave in February or March (I think) and is moving back to Albuquerque. For his first application for promotion, I helped him with his resume. He had seven years of work experience when he was 21 years old, thanks to the gaming store where he used to play asking him to work for them the day he was legally old enough to be hired. Two years later when he was REALLY old enough to fully and really work (to have keys and be covered by insurance, rather than to be a kid-assistant to someone old enough) they gave him keys to the store.
Partly that was because he was available, and I was willing to drive him to the gaming shop and pick him up. Partly it was his personality—outgoing and confident. Partly it was that he really, truly understood procedures, and knew Pokemon card game tournaments inside and out, having played in as many as he could find when he was 12 and 13.
That store was all table games and board games. Collectible cards, chess, miniatures. ("Violence" with hand-painted little plastic pieces? :-) And what about chess? Are they KILLING those pawns, or just "taking"/capturing them? :-) )
It was good that I wasn't keeping him away from games so that he could learn to type without looking, and balance a checkbook. He supervises a team doing a job he used to perform—gamemasters in World of Warcraft. Their job involves real-time typing with people who are sometimes distraught, frustrated or cranky. Nothing in all my years of school would have prepared me for that, except maybe writing notes in class that were passed on the sly and would get us all in trouble when they were caught.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-And if/when she gets uncomfortable, she has a button that stops everything instantly. That's pretty powerful. -=-
OH my gosh....
Think back for a moment.
If we had been able to click school off and magically be in the middle of our house with the option to stand, sit, walk, inside or outside, to do art or get a snack, to watch TV or read or go play with pets, how many times might we have used that button that stops everything instantly? :-)
semajrak@...
<<Whether or not someone turns out okay in life because they learned from grand theft auto is beside the point. Lots of people have become successful with horrible upbringings>>
I didn't have an easy childhood. My son, Ethan, in my not-so-humble opinion, has had a dream childhood by comparison. My hope for Ethan is not to turn out okay, but for him to grow up whole. The way I see that happening most successfully is to do my very best to embrace Ethan's interests and explorations without prejudice or fear and the misguided and potentially damaging actions and words that follow such feelings.
Doug and I have played a lot of hours of video games with Ethan over the years. All kinds of games from simple point and click games to puzzles to first person shooters. We've seen what Ethan's learning, and it isn't frightening or disheartening in the least. It's inspiring actually. The way Ethan analyzes the stats in the game to create optimal play. The fearless way he dives into an environment he's never been in before and quickly masters the dynamics. The enthusiasm with which he can talk in detail and at length about the games. The generous way he walks us through games that are new to us or his friends. The socially responsible way he's learned to play online with people he doesn't know. The way he sets boundaries for himself regarding how he will play with others. The way he sets goals for himself for what he hopes to achieve. All brilliant, in my opinion. All of it supported wholeheartedly by both his dad and I.
My husband works in computer graphics and a large part of what he does includes trying to simulate our world in as realistic a way as possible. That pursuit isn't about simply recreating the world that already exists. It's about understanding this world we live in. Learning about it. Being inspired by it. Finding the wonder, the curiosities, the mysteries and ultimately our own place in it. Contemporary games and animations and virtual technologies are happy consequences of that pursuit. I think it's true too that kids understand that games today are much more than mere imitations of reality. I think they are also excited by the possibilities, not only for play and fun and enjoyment, but for understanding more about the world they live in, and more about themselves too. I find that exciting as well.
The truth for me is that living this life, which enthusiastically includes playing games, has brought me closer to being whole than I have ever felt in my life. One could even say, at least in part, that I have games -- all kinds of games -- to thank for that. So, thank you games!
Karen James.
semajrak@...
<<And what about chess? Are they KILLING those pawns, or just "taking"/capturing them? :-) >>
I find Othello is a pretty aggressive game. It's not easy seeing a good portion of your pieces get flipped over in one turn. Ethan really doesn't like to play it, although he enjoys watching Doug and I play. There aren't creative ways to maneuver out of an upcoming move that isn't in your favour. Ethan likes options. It's a bit of a ruthless game too. It's strategic. It has one goal -- to own the board. Black and white ( ;-) ). It's similar to what I imagine a military strategy might be. I would never suggest, however, that playing Othello leads to war. Nor would I even suggest it makes a person ruthless or single-minded. I play it with my husband. I don't think I've ever won. He kicks my butt every single time! And, he's the kindest person I know.
I find Othello is a pretty aggressive game. It's not easy seeing a good portion of your pieces get flipped over in one turn. Ethan really doesn't like to play it, although he enjoys watching Doug and I play. There aren't creative ways to maneuver out of an upcoming move that isn't in your favour. Ethan likes options. It's a bit of a ruthless game too. It's strategic. It has one goal -- to own the board. Black and white ( ;-) ). It's similar to what I imagine a military strategy might be. I would never suggest, however, that playing Othello leads to war. Nor would I even suggest it makes a person ruthless or single-minded. I play it with my husband. I don't think I've ever won. He kicks my butt every single time! And, he's the kindest person I know.
Karen James.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Doug and I have played a lot of hours of video games with Ethan over the years. All kinds of games from simple point and click games to puzzles to first person shooters. We've seen what Ethan's learning, and it isn't frightening or disheartening in the least. It's inspiring actually. The way Ethan analyzes the stats in the game to create optimal play. The fearless way he dives into an environment he's never been in before and quickly masters the dynamics. The enthusiasm with which he can talk in detail and at length about the games. The generous way he walks us through games that are new to us or his friends. The socially responsible way he's learned to play online with people he doesn't know. The way he sets boundaries for himself regarding how he will play with others. The way he sets goals for himself for what he hopes to achieve. All brilliant, in my opinion.-=-
Karen wrote that (and more) in response to
-=-<<Whether or not someone turns out okay in life because they learned from grand theft auto is beside the point. Lots of people have become successful with horrible upbringings>> -=-
"Beside the point" is everyday lingo for waving something away without being specific.
For purposes of this discussion, if I thought the author was here in good faith to discuss unschooling (and if he is, this is an invitation), I would ask him to clarify. Beside WHAT "point"? What is the point he thinks we have turned away from?
My mom was from a large, irresponsible family of alcoholics and some thieves, and later, one uncle was running a little band of glue-sniffing juveniles who climbed into houses and stole stereos. Her dad once told me that he didn't know much about his own ancestors, but they were probably horse thieves. At the time, I thought he was joking. Later, I figured he was right. A great uncle I never knew died falling off a freight train in the 1930's. He was a longtime hobo, so my granny asserted that he would not have fallen, and must have been pushed. My mom drank, increasingly, as I got older—sneaky, using the grocery money, lying. She became less and less available to us, which wasn't always bad, because ehe was mean and spanked and shamed and yelled and muttered insults and threats. Sometimes she wasn't awful I now assume that those times where when she had SOME beer in her, but not too much.
My dad was nice, worked very hard and long, and had been told by school that he was stupid (he was a lefty made to write right-handed who dropped out as soon as he could). He couldn't read very well, even as an adult, but I didn't know it until I was nearly grown.
Yet I learned to make the most of that family, and found opportunities for myself to take music lessons and be in church choirs (my church and others) and cultivated friendships with people who are artistic and bright and philosophical.
I didn't plan to have kids, but things happen, and when I did I had a checklist of things I knew I did NOT want to do, built by my reflections on my childhood, and a list of good examples observed in other parents who DID have peaceful, happy homes.
Gradually, I came to have opportunities to share what I had gathered up over all those years.
Separately overlaid on that was a lifetime of interest in learning, teachers, school, methods, "education," in various places and times and ways. I was lucky (though I didn't know it wasn't normal at the time) to be at a university that was a nest of school reformers. I learned later that my own school had, for a few years, and looking back I know exactly which ones, been part of an experimental comparison of methods.
All of that came together with La Leche League and Adult Children of Alcoholics to become a bundle of enthusiasm, and I met and shared with other unschoolers, and that phase i still happening.
Whether I am "successful" is entirely dependent on the point of view of the person making the judgment.
As a speaker at conferences, I'm successful.
As a writer about unschooling, I am successful because people actually read and use my book to change their lives. That's what it was intended for, and so I don't care that it's a self-published thing with half a dozen typos. Those are gifts to those who find them and want to see that they found an error I missed. :-) I have too many other things to do to go in and change that file, though if I do I will re-load it with color photos and not black and white, I hope, for e-book purposes.
As a mother, I'm successful. I have a few regrets, but not a crippling, daunting number of them. But my kids are grown, functional, happy adults. One makes good money, one makes medium money wile going to school, and the youngest is travelling and exploring and working occasionally. Lots of people her age are, but some have college degrees and student loans, and a load of shame and pressure. She doesn't.
As a teacher (the thing I wanted to do while I was growing up) I was a success for six year, and then a quitter. :-)
I might be successful with a horrible upbringing. I had a house and some food (not good food, not much). I have a house and good food now, and have been married for over 30 years. I want to help other people have the small, everyday tools and tricks to make decisions that help them stay married a long time, too, and to create a safe, peaceful place for their children to grow up. THAT, for me, is the point.
Sandra
Nicole August
My oldest son and I were doing dishes yesterday in the late afternoon and got into a discussion about colour. I’d just finished up a painting and he had graciously photographed it for me. He’d spent some time doing the colour correction and the results were good. I mentioned how hard it is for our brain to see colour sometimes. For example, I pointed out, the snow on the roof across the street that is in deep evening shade is really a very brilliant blue. He agreed that is was blue-ish, but not that blue.
I have a little tool artists use for help in judging colour and value. Its simply a piece of cardboard with a small square hole in the middle. The cardboard around the hole is painted what is known as “neutral grey value 5”. This colour is mid way between white and black and it eliminates the effects of other colours (and your brain) on the colour you’re trying to view. My son was very surprised just how blue the snow was ! We took turns looking through the view finder and then moving it away and laughing at how our brains kept turning the snow back to white (with just a bit of blue). I can actually look with one eye through the viewfinder and with the other at the whole scene and each eye sees a different colour ! Our brains say snow is white, the sky is blue and shadows are grey, but often they’re not. If I paint a picture the way my brain habitually thinks the colours are, in the end it won’t look right !
I think many things in life are like that. We think we know what we are looking at so we see what we know. If we act on that though, in the end it doesn’t always work right. Then we need to find some "neutral grey value 5" to help us see what is really there. Even with the viewfinder it can still be hard to get a colour just right, but I’ve got a better chance that way.
Thank you to Sandra and this list for being such a great “neutral grey value 5”. We have some wonderful colours around here because of your help. May you all have a great year ! PS This is also my response to the Violence and Video Games thread.
I have a little tool artists use for help in judging colour and value. Its simply a piece of cardboard with a small square hole in the middle. The cardboard around the hole is painted what is known as “neutral grey value 5”. This colour is mid way between white and black and it eliminates the effects of other colours (and your brain) on the colour you’re trying to view. My son was very surprised just how blue the snow was ! We took turns looking through the view finder and then moving it away and laughing at how our brains kept turning the snow back to white (with just a bit of blue). I can actually look with one eye through the viewfinder and with the other at the whole scene and each eye sees a different colour ! Our brains say snow is white, the sky is blue and shadows are grey, but often they’re not. If I paint a picture the way my brain habitually thinks the colours are, in the end it won’t look right !
I think many things in life are like that. We think we know what we are looking at so we see what we know. If we act on that though, in the end it doesn’t always work right. Then we need to find some "neutral grey value 5" to help us see what is really there. Even with the viewfinder it can still be hard to get a colour just right, but I’ve got a better chance that way.
Thank you to Sandra and this list for being such a great “neutral grey value 5”. We have some wonderful colours around here because of your help. May you all have a great year ! PS This is also my response to the Violence and Video Games thread.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<<<<<<< The fact that something is 'fun' should not be the end-all, be-all with how someone spends their time. >>>>>>>>>
My husband wrote this in the other day:
"Thank you everyone for all the love and birthday greetings! It's been a typical day on a dairy farm. Tested milk this morning. Hauled bull calves after that. Had a calf born this afternoon and now finishing chores with Alex and Gigi! Spend time with my helluva wife and awesome kids tonight. Absolutely love what I do and put in a lot of 14-16 hr days but if u love what u do it feels like u never work a day in your life.#passion. Our herd has never looked better and we look forward to seeing many of y'all at the shows next yr! As I get another yr older I become more aware that's it's not the final destination that matters most but the journey that takes u there and enjoying the journey and all it has to offer and sharing it with others! Love to you all,"
I am so happy that the important thing for him is JOY in what he does and who he shares with. So in our home "fun" is the end all. We learn having fun. We are happy having fun. We work hard having fun. Even today when it was bellow 35 F windchill and my husband was out doing chores.
My husband wrote this in the other day:
"Thank you everyone for all the love and birthday greetings! It's been a typical day on a dairy farm. Tested milk this morning. Hauled bull calves after that. Had a calf born this afternoon and now finishing chores with Alex and Gigi! Spend time with my helluva wife and awesome kids tonight. Absolutely love what I do and put in a lot of 14-16 hr days but if u love what u do it feels like u never work a day in your life.#passion. Our herd has never looked better and we look forward to seeing many of y'all at the shows next yr! As I get another yr older I become more aware that's it's not the final destination that matters most but the journey that takes u there and enjoying the journey and all it has to offer and sharing it with others! Love to you all,"
I am so happy that the important thing for him is JOY in what he does and who he shares with. So in our home "fun" is the end all. We learn having fun. We are happy having fun. We work hard having fun. Even today when it was bellow 35 F windchill and my husband was out doing chores.
<<<<<<Would
we be having this same conversation if it was a game where you got
points for every vagina or rectum you violated? I guess it wouldn't
matter since it is all 'pretend' and good old fashioned 'fun'?
Would
you want your 7 [or 17 ] year old scoring points in a game for this
behavior [or for that matter, your 45 year old boss or spouse]? Aren't
there better options for fun that you can research WITH your child
[friend, spouse, neighbor], ones that don't encourage companies
profiting from 'giving the people what they want'?>>>>>>>>>>>
Never heard of a game like that and I am pretty sure my kids would have no interest in it.Why make up something that is not even in our radar.
It just shows how little you know about video games. Your prejudice probably comes from hearing things and not really knowing what it is all about.
Let me tell you something.
I am not a super smart genius person but I am not dumb either.
I have a Juris Doctorate, I speak 3 languages flutely , a 4th well enough and working on a much harder one that I fell in love wtih.
I have worked in many different things in life. I have even worked for the United Nations !
I was not a gamer. I am still not a gamer although I LOVE video games and think they are fantastic.
When my son was a toddler I remember looking at his much older cousin playing a game boy and thinking to myself that I did not want my son to do that. I even talked to my husband how I thought it was a waste of time.
Fast forward a couple years and I was the one introducing online games for my son to play and getting him his first gaming system when he was 4.
How did I changed my mind? It helped that I was reading about unschooling since he was a baby and that I found the unschooling discussion groups when he was 2. But most of all I played with him . I got into the games with him.
I could see by playing with him and observing him how much he was learning and how amazing it was.
I did not stop there. I have research and read about video games from reputable schoolers, I have played video games iwth my kids, I have read about unschooling and observed unschoolers playing ( not just my child). It has been eye opening.
If you are interested I can certainly bring you a truck load of links to read and I highly recommend you sit and play with your child and really get into it with them. You do not need to become a games. I am not but I know how amazing video games are. I embrace them fully .
My kids are upstairs playing together as they got a new game for Christmas. IT is too cold to go shoot arrows or for my daughter to be out working with her cows.
She will be drawing, reading and playing games today for sure. I am glad she is. My kids totally bond over games. I have this sweet video of them when my son started to show her how to play the Wii.( this was 4 years ago)
Brother helps little sister play new game on Wii!!!!!!!!!!
It just shows how little you know about video games. Your prejudice probably comes from hearing things and not really knowing what it is all about.
Let me tell you something.
I am not a super smart genius person but I am not dumb either.
I have a Juris Doctorate, I speak 3 languages flutely , a 4th well enough and working on a much harder one that I fell in love wtih.
I have worked in many different things in life. I have even worked for the United Nations !
I was not a gamer. I am still not a gamer although I LOVE video games and think they are fantastic.
When my son was a toddler I remember looking at his much older cousin playing a game boy and thinking to myself that I did not want my son to do that. I even talked to my husband how I thought it was a waste of time.
Fast forward a couple years and I was the one introducing online games for my son to play and getting him his first gaming system when he was 4.
How did I changed my mind? It helped that I was reading about unschooling since he was a baby and that I found the unschooling discussion groups when he was 2. But most of all I played with him . I got into the games with him.
I could see by playing with him and observing him how much he was learning and how amazing it was.
I did not stop there. I have research and read about video games from reputable schoolers, I have played video games iwth my kids, I have read about unschooling and observed unschoolers playing ( not just my child). It has been eye opening.
If you are interested I can certainly bring you a truck load of links to read and I highly recommend you sit and play with your child and really get into it with them. You do not need to become a games. I am not but I know how amazing video games are. I embrace them fully .
My kids are upstairs playing together as they got a new game for Christmas. IT is too cold to go shoot arrows or for my daughter to be out working with her cows.
She will be drawing, reading and playing games today for sure. I am glad she is. My kids totally bond over games. I have this sweet video of them when my son started to show her how to play the Wii.( this was 4 years ago)
Brother helps little sister play new game on Wii!!!!!!!!!!
<<<<<<<<<<<Whether
or not someone turns out okay in life because they learned from grand
theft auto is beside the point. Lots of people have become successful
with horrible upbringings and vice versa.>>>>>>>>>>>>
Grand theft Auto is a game. It is not real. My kids are not having a horrible upbringing because they play games.
They have a safe, loving, peaceful, loving home where they are supported. I strive to provide a rich learning environment with many options and with lots of support. Not only a rich physical learning environment but an emotionally stable and supportive one too. They are growing up in a loving home with loving parents and they are safe.
That is what is important. Not a pretend game. My kids know the difference.
Grand theft Auto is a game. It is not real. My kids are not having a horrible upbringing because they play games.
They have a safe, loving, peaceful, loving home where they are supported. I strive to provide a rich learning environment with many options and with lots of support. Not only a rich physical learning environment but an emotionally stable and supportive one too. They are growing up in a loving home with loving parents and they are safe.
That is what is important. Not a pretend game. My kids know the difference.
When my kids where 5 and 8 they loved Happy Wheels. ( go check the videos on youtube)> One time I said "Ugh there is a lot of blood!" They laughed at me and said that it was triangle pixel blood and not real mom!
<<< There are so many other things to do with your time than have
'fun' based on violence; and there's no need to squash anyone's
independence to get that point across. >>>>>>>
My son is into everything Middle Ages. All the history , garb, weapons , battles, food .... He cannot wait to be 16 and be able to do combat. For now he is happy he got into archery and we just got him a nice bow and some arrows.
I am glad he is having fun based on violence. It is amazing what this kid knows about history, geography,maps and so much more just because of his passion for Medieval Combat.
<<<<<<<Setting an example is a good start. >>>>>>
We are! A couple days before Christmas I was picking up a couple things with my daughter and there was a homeless man in a stop light. We were in the other side and far from him. My daughter said to me that she was sad and wanted to help. We drove around and stopped close by and got all the change ( it was not much at all) we had and we gave it to him and wished him well.
My son is into everything Middle Ages. All the history , garb, weapons , battles, food .... He cannot wait to be 16 and be able to do combat. For now he is happy he got into archery and we just got him a nice bow and some arrows.
I am glad he is having fun based on violence. It is amazing what this kid knows about history, geography,maps and so much more just because of his passion for Medieval Combat.
The same kid that saves kittens and loves those buggers.
<<<<<<<Setting an example is a good start. >>>>>>
We are! A couple days before Christmas I was picking up a couple things with my daughter and there was a homeless man in a stop light. We were in the other side and far from him. My daughter said to me that she was sad and wanted to help. We drove around and stopped close by and got all the change ( it was not much at all) we had and we gave it to him and wished him well.
That is the same kid that loved to play Happy Wheels ( not a happy game! fun thou) when she was younger.
But she is growing up the way I wrote above. Games are just games. She also loves the book series Warriors. There is a lot of violence in there. Cats killing cats. She loves it. She also loves our real cats. She would never hurt them in real life.
She would be worried if they did fight and get hurt like in the book.
But she is growing up the way I wrote above. Games are just games. She also loves the book series Warriors. There is a lot of violence in there. Cats killing cats. She loves it. She also loves our real cats. She would never hurt them in real life.
She would be worried if they did fight and get hurt like in the book.
On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 1:24 PM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-Doug and I have played a lot of hours of video games with Ethan over the years. All kinds of games from simple point and click games to puzzles to first person shooters. We've seen what Ethan's learning, and it isn't frightening or disheartening in the least. It's inspiring actually. The way Ethan analyzes the stats in the game to create optimal play. The fearless way he dives into an environment he's never been in before and quickly masters the dynamics. The enthusiasm with which he can talk in detail and at length about the games. The generous way he walks us through games that are new to us or his friends. The socially responsible way he's learned to play online with people he doesn't know. The way he sets boundaries for himself regarding how he will play with others. The way he sets goals for himself for what he hopes to achieve. All brilliant, in my opinion.-=-
Karen wrote that (and more) in response to
-=-<<Whether or not someone turns out okay in life because they learned from grand theft auto is beside the point. Lots of people have become successful with horrible upbringings>> -=-
"Beside the point" is everyday lingo for waving something away without being specific.
For purposes of this discussion, if I thought the author was here in good faith to discuss unschooling (and if he is, this is an invitation), I would ask him to clarify. Beside WHAT "point"? What is the point he thinks we have turned away from?
My mom was from a large, irresponsible family of alcoholics and some thieves, and later, one uncle was running a little band of glue-sniffing juveniles who climbed into houses and stole stereos. Her dad once told me that he didn't know much about his own ancestors, but they were probably horse thieves. At the time, I thought he was joking. Later, I figured he was right. A great uncle I never knew died falling off a freight train in the 1930's. He was a longtime hobo, so my granny asserted that he would not have fallen, and must have been pushed. My mom drank, increasingly, as I got older—sneaky, using the grocery money, lying. She became less and less available to us, which wasn't always bad, because ehe was mean and spanked and shamed and yelled and muttered insults and threats. Sometimes she wasn't awful I now assume that those times where when she had SOME beer in her, but not too much.
My dad was nice, worked very hard and long, and had been told by school that he was stupid (he was a lefty made to write right-handed who dropped out as soon as he could). He couldn't read very well, even as an adult, but I didn't know it until I was nearly grown.
Yet I learned to make the most of that family, and found opportunities for myself to take music lessons and be in church choirs (my church and others) and cultivated friendships with people who are artistic and bright and philosophical.
I didn't plan to have kids, but things happen, and when I did I had a checklist of things I knew I did NOT want to do, built by my reflections on my childhood, and a list of good examples observed in other parents who DID have peaceful, happy homes.
Gradually, I came to have opportunities to share what I had gathered up over all those years.
Separately overlaid on that was a lifetime of interest in learning, teachers, school, methods, "education," in various places and times and ways. I was lucky (though I didn't know it wasn't normal at the time) to be at a university that was a nest of school reformers. I learned later that my own school had, for a few years, and looking back I know exactly which ones, been part of an experimental comparison of methods.
All of that came together with La Leche League and Adult Children of Alcoholics to become a bundle of enthusiasm, and I met and shared with other unschoolers, and that phase i still happening.
Whether I am "successful" is entirely dependent on the point of view of the person making the judgment.
As a speaker at conferences, I'm successful.
As a writer about unschooling, I am successful because people actually read and use my book to change their lives. That's what it was intended for, and so I don't care that it's a self-published thing with half a dozen typos. Those are gifts to those who find them and want to see that they found an error I missed. :-) I have too many other things to do to go in and change that file, though if I do I will re-load it with color photos and not black and white, I hope, for e-book purposes.
As a mother, I'm successful. I have a few regrets, but not a crippling, daunting number of them. But my kids are grown, functional, happy adults. One makes good money, one makes medium money wile going to school, and the youngest is travelling and exploring and working occasionally. Lots of people her age are, but some have college degrees and student loans, and a load of shame and pressure. She doesn't.
As a teacher (the thing I wanted to do while I was growing up) I was a success for six year, and then a quitter. :-)
I might be successful with a horrible upbringing. I had a house and some food (not good food, not much). I have a house and good food now, and have been married for over 30 years. I want to help other people have the small, everyday tools and tricks to make decisions that help them stay married a long time, too, and to create a safe, peaceful place for their children to grow up. THAT, for me, is the point.
Sandra
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I apologize for my post with so many misspellings and in much need of editing. For some reason Firefox is being very glitchy for me today and I had to keep debugging a script that was stopping and ended up sending before I re read it.
I hope it makes sense!
I hope it makes sense!
On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 2:31 PM, "BRIAN POLIKOWSKY polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
<<<<<<<<<<< The fact that something is 'fun' should not be the end-all, be-all with how someone spends their time. >>>>>>>>>
My husband wrote this in the other day:
"Thank you everyone for all the love and birthday greetings! It's been a typical day on a dairy farm. Tested milk this morning. Hauled bull calves after that. Had a calf born this afternoon and now finishing chores with Alex and Gigi! Spend time with my helluva wife and awesome kids tonight. Absolutely love what I do and put in a lot of 14-16 hr days but if u love what u do it feels like u never work a day in your life.#passion. Our herd has never looked better and we look forward to seeing many of y'all at the shows next yr! As I get another yr older I become more aware that's it's not the final destination that matters most but the journey that takes u there and enjoying the journey and all it has to offer and sharing it with others! Love to you all,"
I am so happy that the important thing for him is JOY in what he does and who he shares with. So in our home "fun" is the end all. We learn having fun. We are happy having fun. We work hard having fun. Even today when it was bellow 35 F windchill and my husband was out doing chores.
My husband wrote this in the other day:
"Thank you everyone for all the love and birthday greetings! It's been a typical day on a dairy farm. Tested milk this morning. Hauled bull calves after that. Had a calf born this afternoon and now finishing chores with Alex and Gigi! Spend time with my helluva wife and awesome kids tonight. Absolutely love what I do and put in a lot of 14-16 hr days but if u love what u do it feels like u never work a day in your life.#passion. Our herd has never looked better and we look forward to seeing many of y'all at the shows next yr! As I get another yr older I become more aware that's it's not the final destination that matters most but the journey that takes u there and enjoying the journey and all it has to offer and sharing it with others! Love to you all,"
I am so happy that the important thing for him is JOY in what he does and who he shares with. So in our home "fun" is the end all. We learn having fun. We are happy having fun. We work hard having fun. Even today when it was bellow 35 F windchill and my husband was out doing chores.
<<<<<<Would
we be having this same conversation if it was a game where you got
points for every vagina or rectum you violated? I guess it wouldn't
matter since it is all 'pretend' and good old fashioned 'fun'?
Would
you want your 7 [or 17 ] year old scoring points in a game for this
behavior [or for that matter, your 45 year old boss or spouse]? Aren't
there better options for fun that you can research WITH your child
[friend, spouse, neighbor], ones that don't encourage companies
profiting from 'giving the people what they want'?>>>>>>>>>>>
Never heard of a game like that and I am pretty sure my kids would have no interest in it.Why make up something that is not even in our radar.
It just shows how little you know about video games. Your prejudice probably comes from hearing things and not really knowing what it is all about.
Let me tell you something.
I am not a super smart genius person but I am not dumb either.
I have a Juris Doctorate, I speak 3 languages flutely , a 4th well enough and working on a much harder one that I fell in love wtih.
I have worked in many different things in life. I have even worked for the United Nations !
I was not a gamer. I am still not a gamer although I LOVE video games and think they are fantastic.
When my son was a toddler I remember looking at his much older cousin playing a game boy and thinking to myself that I did not want my son to do that. I even talked to my husband how I thought it was a waste of time.
Fast forward a couple years and I was the one introducing online games for my son to play and getting him his first gaming system when he was 4.
How did I changed my mind? It helped that I was reading about unschooling since he was a baby and that I found the unschooling discussion groups when he was 2. But most of all I played with him . I got into the games with him.
I could see by playing with him and observing him how much he was learning and how amazing it was.
I did not stop there. I have research and read about video games from reputable schoolers, I have played video games iwth my kids, I have read about unschooling and observed unschoolers playing ( not just my child). It has been eye opening.
If you are interested I can certainly bring you a truck load of links to read and I highly recommend you sit and play with your child and really get into it with them. You do not need to become a games. I am not but I know how amazing video games are. I embrace them fully .
My kids are upstairs playing together as they got a new game for Christmas. IT is too cold to go shoot arrows or for my daughter to be out working with her cows.
She will be drawing, reading and playing games today for sure. I am glad she is. My kids totally bond over games. I have this sweet video of them when my son started to show her how to play the Wii.( this was 4 years ago)
Brother helps little sister play new game on Wii!!!!!!!!!!
It just shows how little you know about video games. Your prejudice probably comes from hearing things and not really knowing what it is all about.
Let me tell you something.
I am not a super smart genius person but I am not dumb either.
I have a Juris Doctorate, I speak 3 languages flutely , a 4th well enough and working on a much harder one that I fell in love wtih.
I have worked in many different things in life. I have even worked for the United Nations !
I was not a gamer. I am still not a gamer although I LOVE video games and think they are fantastic.
When my son was a toddler I remember looking at his much older cousin playing a game boy and thinking to myself that I did not want my son to do that. I even talked to my husband how I thought it was a waste of time.
Fast forward a couple years and I was the one introducing online games for my son to play and getting him his first gaming system when he was 4.
How did I changed my mind? It helped that I was reading about unschooling since he was a baby and that I found the unschooling discussion groups when he was 2. But most of all I played with him . I got into the games with him.
I could see by playing with him and observing him how much he was learning and how amazing it was.
I did not stop there. I have research and read about video games from reputable schoolers, I have played video games iwth my kids, I have read about unschooling and observed unschoolers playing ( not just my child). It has been eye opening.
If you are interested I can certainly bring you a truck load of links to read and I highly recommend you sit and play with your child and really get into it with them. You do not need to become a games. I am not but I know how amazing video games are. I embrace them fully .
My kids are upstairs playing together as they got a new game for Christmas. IT is too cold to go shoot arrows or for my daughter to be out working with her cows.
She will be drawing, reading and playing games today for sure. I am glad she is. My kids totally bond over games. I have this sweet video of them when my son started to show her how to play the Wii.( this was 4 years ago)
Brother helps little sister play new game on Wii!!!!!!!!!!
<<<<<<<<<<<Whether
or not someone turns out okay in life because they learned from grand
theft auto is beside the point. Lots of people have become successful
with horrible upbringings and vice versa.>>>>>>>>>>>>
Grand theft Auto is a game. It is not real. My kids are not having a horrible upbringing because they play games.
They have a safe, loving, peaceful, loving home where they are supported. I strive to provide a rich learning environment with many options and with lots of support. Not only a rich physical learning environment but an emotionally stable and supportive one too. They are growing up in a loving home with loving parents and they are safe.
That is what is important. Not a pretend game. My kids know the difference.
Grand theft Auto is a game. It is not real. My kids are not having a horrible upbringing because they play games.
They have a safe, loving, peaceful, loving home where they are supported. I strive to provide a rich learning environment with many options and with lots of support. Not only a rich physical learning environment but an emotionally stable and supportive one too. They are growing up in a loving home with loving parents and they are safe.
That is what is important. Not a pretend game. My kids know the difference.
When my kids where 5 and 8 they loved Happy Wheels. ( go check the videos on youtube)> One time I said "Ugh there is a lot of blood!" They laughed at me and said that it was triangle pixel blood and not real mom!
<<< There are so many other things to do with your time than have
'fun' based on violence; and there's no need to squash anyone's
independence to get that point across. >>>>>>>
My son is into everything Middle Ages. All the history , garb, weapons , battles, food .... He cannot wait to be 16 and be able to do combat. For now he is happy he got into archery and we just got him a nice bow and some arrows.
I am glad he is having fun based on violence. It is amazing what this kid knows about history, geography,maps and so much more just because of his passion for Medieval Combat.
<<<<<<<Setting an example is a good start. >>>>>>
We are! A couple days before Christmas I was picking up a couple things with my daughter and there was a homeless man in a stop light. We were in the other side and far from him. My daughter said to me that she was sad and wanted to help. We drove around and stopped close by and got all the change ( it was not much at all) we had and we gave it to him and wished him well.
My son is into everything Middle Ages. All the history , garb, weapons , battles, food .... He cannot wait to be 16 and be able to do combat. For now he is happy he got into archery and we just got him a nice bow and some arrows.
I am glad he is having fun based on violence. It is amazing what this kid knows about history, geography,maps and so much more just because of his passion for Medieval Combat.
The same kid that saves kittens and loves those buggers.
<<<<<<<Setting an example is a good start. >>>>>>
We are! A couple days before Christmas I was picking up a couple things with my daughter and there was a homeless man in a stop light. We were in the other side and far from him. My daughter said to me that she was sad and wanted to help. We drove around and stopped close by and got all the change ( it was not much at all) we had and we gave it to him and wished him well.
That is the same kid that loved to play Happy Wheels ( not a happy game! fun thou) when she was younger.
But she is growing up the way I wrote above. Games are just games. She also loves the book series Warriors. There is a lot of violence in there. Cats killing cats. She loves it. She also loves our real cats. She would never hurt them in real life.
She would be worried if they did fight and get hurt like in the book.
But she is growing up the way I wrote above. Games are just games. She also loves the book series Warriors. There is a lot of violence in there. Cats killing cats. She loves it. She also loves our real cats. She would never hurt them in real life.
She would be worried if they did fight and get hurt like in the book.
On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 1:24 PM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-Doug and I have played a lot of hours of video games with Ethan over the years. All kinds of games from simple point and click games to puzzles to first person shooters. We've seen what Ethan's learning, and it isn't frightening or disheartening in the least. It's inspiring actually. The way Ethan analyzes the stats in the game to create optimal play. The fearless way he dives into an environment he's never been in before and quickly masters the dynamics. The enthusiasm with which he can talk in detail and at length about the games. The generous way he walks us through games that are new to us or his friends. The socially responsible way he's learned to play online with people he doesn't know. The way he sets boundaries for himself regarding how he will play with others. The way he sets goals for himself for what he hopes to achieve. All brilliant, in my opinion.-=-
Karen wrote that (and more) in response to
-=-<<Whether or not someone turns out okay in life because they learned from grand theft auto is beside the point. Lots of people have become successful with horrible upbringings>> -=-
"Beside the point" is everyday lingo for waving something away without being specific.
For purposes of this discussion, if I thought the author was here in good faith to discuss unschooling (and if he is, this is an invitation), I would ask him to clarify. Beside WHAT "point"? What is the point he thinks we have turned away from?
My mom was from a large, irresponsible family of alcoholics and some thieves, and later, one uncle was running a little band of glue-sniffing juveniles who climbed into houses and stole stereos. Her dad once told me that he didn't know much about his own ancestors, but they were probably horse thieves. At the time, I thought he was joking. Later, I figured he was right. A great uncle I never knew died falling off a freight train in the 1930's. He was a longtime hobo, so my granny asserted that he would not have fallen, and must have been pushed. My mom drank, increasingly, as I got older—sneaky, using the grocery money, lying. She became less and less available to us, which wasn't always bad, because ehe was mean and spanked and shamed and yelled and muttered insults and threats. Sometimes she wasn't awful I now assume that those times where when she had SOME beer in her, but not too much.
My dad was nice, worked very hard and long, and had been told by school that he was stupid (he was a lefty made to write right-handed who dropped out as soon as he could). He couldn't read very well, even as an adult, but I didn't know it until I was nearly grown.
Yet I learned to make the most of that family, and found opportunities for myself to take music lessons and be in church choirs (my church and others) and cultivated friendships with people who are artistic and bright and philosophical.
I didn't plan to have kids, but things happen, and when I did I had a checklist of things I knew I did NOT want to do, built by my reflections on my childhood, and a list of good examples observed in other parents who DID have peaceful, happy homes.
Gradually, I came to have opportunities to share what I had gathered up over all those years.
Separately overlaid on that was a lifetime of interest in learning, teachers, school, methods, "education," in various places and times and ways. I was lucky (though I didn't know it wasn't normal at the time) to be at a university that was a nest of school reformers. I learned later that my own school had, for a few years, and looking back I know exactly which ones, been part of an experimental comparison of methods.
All of that came together with La Leche League and Adult Children of Alcoholics to become a bundle of enthusiasm, and I met and shared with other unschoolers, and that phase i still happening.
Whether I am "successful" is entirely dependent on the point of view of the person making the judgment.
As a speaker at conferences, I'm successful.
As a writer about unschooling, I am successful because people actually read and use my book to change their lives. That's what it was intended for, and so I don't care that it's a self-published thing with half a dozen typos. Those are gifts to those who find them and want to see that they found an error I missed. :-) I have too many other things to do to go in and change that file, though if I do I will re-load it with color photos and not black and white, I hope, for e-book purposes.
As a mother, I'm successful. I have a few regrets, but not a crippling, daunting number of them. But my kids are grown, functional, happy adults. One makes good money, one makes medium money wile going to school, and the youngest is travelling and exploring and working occasionally. Lots of people her age are, but some have college degrees and student loans, and a load of shame and pressure. She doesn't.
As a teacher (the thing I wanted to do while I was growing up) I was a success for six year, and then a quitter. :-)
I might be successful with a horrible upbringing. I had a house and some food (not good food, not much). I have a house and good food now, and have been married for over 30 years. I want to help other people have the small, everyday tools and tricks to make decisions that help them stay married a long time, too, and to create a safe, peaceful place for their children to grow up. THAT, for me, is the point.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-My son is into everything Middle Ages. All the history , garb, weapons , battles, food .... He cannot wait to be 16 and be able to do combat. For now he is happy he got into archery and we just got him a nice bow and some arrows.
I am glad he is having fun based on violence. It is amazing what this kid knows about history, geography,maps and so much more just because of his passion for Medieval Combat. -=-
I am glad he is having fun based on violence. It is amazing what this kid knows about history, geography,maps and so much more just because of his passion for Medieval Combat. -=-
Alex’s son has recently joined the Society for Creative Anachronism. I was active in that group for most of my adult life. It’s where I met my husband, in a madrigal group. It’s where our kids were baptized. :-) (Medieval baptism ceremony with their medieval names, though my mother-in-law asked if it was a real baptism, which is an interesting question! I asked a few gentle questions to see what she considered “real” and she asked if they got a certificate. OH! A certificate! I didn’t think to ask for one. :-) Everyone involved was a calligrapher, but the name on it wouldn’t have been the name she acknowledged anyway. :-)
My middle son is the baron of the local group, at the age of 25. There haven’t been barons that young since the 1970’s and early 1980’s. As people have stayed in the group and aged, it’s not so usual for teens to be knighted, or for young people to become barons. So though it won’t make much sense outside the group, it’s kind of a big deal. Two other couples who were considered are retired.
I don’t think of the tournaments and wars as violence at all. My husband was great at tournament combat in his youth. He won lots of tournament—sometimes for honors (warlord, prince, king) and sometimes for loot (garb, silver coins, dishes, armor). I’ve had students (protege, apprentice kind of students) who were involved in that too. I’ve had people other than my husband carry my favor in a tournament (so that I shared the prize or honor if he won, or the problematical dishonor if he wasn’t courteous and chivalrous).
What I saw all those years and what I see in my husband and my son now (hearing stories but not going in person for the past half dozen years) is research, practice, skill, courtesy, strength and gentleness, and chivalry. They do it JUST TO HAVE FUN. They build armor from steal and leather just because they want to, because they enjoy it. They drive long distances and camp in cold and rain sometimes, and heat and dust sometimes, to be in larger battles, or regional or interkingdom tournaments.
One man who was the squire of my husband’s squire, has gone on to be in the sport that grew from all this where modern nations have teams of real-steel swordsmen in armor, and have tournaments in Europe. For fun. Expensive, dangerous fun. He’s also a policeman. Marty used to plan to be a policeman for a few years partly because of Mark.
Here’s a photo of Marty and Ashlee (by their other names) as baron and baroness of al-Barran.
Mark Elrick, on the USA red team:
Video games are safer and much less expensive than those hobbies.
Sandra
heather cooper diehr
"Their job involves real-time typing with people who are sometimes distraught, frustrated or cranky. Nothing in all my years of school would have prepared me for that, except maybe writing notes in class that were passed on the sly and would get us all in trouble when they were caught. " ~ Sandra
sandra, i am relieved for all of us that you guide us on this list *daily* to more sweetness and peace, even when we're distraught, frustrated, and cranky. i also love that you and kirby have had similar jobs. :)
i've had a precious experience over the last few days, my mom visiting us for the holidays, me playing vintage super mario brothers while cooper (almost 7, he loves watching us play video games) and my mom observe. at one point, she said, "this reminds me so much of when you were a little girl. the sounds. watching you on the floor from the couch." ... thinking of this thread, i thanked her for letting me play as much as she did. she seemed embarrassed, like she wished she hadn't or something, and i was able to let her know how much joy super mario brought me then, and how much it's bringing me now!!! it was such a connecting moment.
as a "successful" (whatever that means) psychotherapist in private practice that has financially supported my family for years, it is a wonder to sit and play and laugh hysterically with my son, with such ease...accessing this so naturally playful part of me. exploring other worlds...coming to know them. it's so beautiful.
for those of you that are terrified by biblical or other kinds of rhetoric, please consider what you might be ***ACTUALLY*** "killing" inside your sweet children, what soul-dreams you might be raping. your words posted to this list have felt FAR more violent and destructive than ANY video game could EVER be.
thank you, safe, safe voices, for keeping this space so gentle.
i am, we are, forever and ever grateful.
love,
heather
Sandra Dodd
-=-i also love that you and kirby have had similar jobs. :) -=-
I had not thought of it that way, Heather. :-) Thanks.
-=-for those of you that are terrified by biblical or other kinds of rhetoric, please consider what you might be ***ACTUALLY*** "killing" inside your sweet children, what soul-dreams you might be raping. your words posted to this list have felt FAR more violent and destructive than ANY video game could EVER be.-=-
Fundamentalist Christians won’t be able to agree with you. They think bodies are just a temporary vessel for the eternal soul, which is the important part. Any “soul dream” that isn’t a desire to be with God for eternity is wilfull rejection of grace, or sinful base urges.
Knowing what they believe doesn’t really make it more comfortable for someone to pretty much wish hope that I’ll be sent to hell forever. Another detractor once cursed my whole family, with "The controlling nature of this list is more then my unschooling mind can understand. You are closed minded and I truly hope karma smites you and yours."
I suppose I should add the recent rant to my negative feedback collection.
Thanks for your nice words.
Sandra
I had not thought of it that way, Heather. :-) Thanks.
-=-for those of you that are terrified by biblical or other kinds of rhetoric, please consider what you might be ***ACTUALLY*** "killing" inside your sweet children, what soul-dreams you might be raping. your words posted to this list have felt FAR more violent and destructive than ANY video game could EVER be.-=-
Fundamentalist Christians won’t be able to agree with you. They think bodies are just a temporary vessel for the eternal soul, which is the important part. Any “soul dream” that isn’t a desire to be with God for eternity is wilfull rejection of grace, or sinful base urges.
Knowing what they believe doesn’t really make it more comfortable for someone to pretty much wish hope that I’ll be sent to hell forever. Another detractor once cursed my whole family, with "The controlling nature of this list is more then my unschooling mind can understand. You are closed minded and I truly hope karma smites you and yours."
I suppose I should add the recent rant to my negative feedback collection.
Thanks for your nice words.
Sandra
Rinelle
> Yes, but that's small compared to the logic. Deductive reasoning andI was watching my husband play a game the other day where he was a soldier
> strategies used in games can make them better thinkers in every situation.
> There was no real speed thinking involved in school when I was there,
> except maybe pop quizzes and formal debates. With timers counting down
> visibly in their perhipheral vision, video gamers do all kinds of tasks,
> for fun, out of curiosity and joy.
in a war, and running through a city having to shoot the enemies, and it
occurred to me how much was involved in playing it. He had to make split
second decisions on which moving object was an enemy, and which was a
friendly, whether it was better to move or stay where he was, what objects
would be useful for cover etc. It requires a LOT of skill. (One I don't
have, probably because of not enough practice!)
And it fits with a lot of research I've read saying that people who play
computer games are able to make better decisions on less information than
those who don't. I really think playing computer games is teaching us a lot
of skills that are only going to be needed more and more as our
technological world speeds up!
Tamara
Sandra Dodd
-=-And it fits with a lot of research I've read saying that people who play
computer games are able to make better decisions on less information than
those who don’t.-==
computer games are able to make better decisions on less information than
those who don’t.-==
YES!
-=- I really think playing computer games is teaching us a lot
of skills…-=-
of skills…-=-
NO!
They are not “teaching us.”
Players are learning, and practicing, honing, exploring, using, doing. The game isn’t doing anything. The player does it all.
ALL learning is inside the learner.
Stop using “teach.”
Stop thinking “teach.”
A quote from the second link:
I remember being corrected on saying someone "taught themself" something and thinking it was bullshit semantics, needlessly picky, and a little snide. Now I understand that distinction so well and it's very important. (from Pamela C, after a year or so of unschooling)
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-Thank you to Sandra and this list for being such a great “neutral grey value 5”. -=-
No one has ever said that to me before. :-)
Adam Daniel (Julie Daniel’s son, whom I’ve known since he was four and is nine now) and I were talking about things no one has ever said before. My 4th grade teachers, Sally Gonzalez, told us once that when we speak we say things that no one has ever said before in the history of the world. I was nine, when I heard that.
I don’t remember the phrase we were laughing about when he was at the house last week, but I found another one and posted it on his facebook page:
_______________
Another example of words never before combined:
"In answer to our fervent prayers, we have finally found a source for yellow plastic ducks with tape measures inside."
I love this catalog—humor in the writing, nearly always.
http://www.sciplus.com/p/DUCK-SHAPED-TAPE-MEASURE_52938
_______________
I can’t remember what the in-person odd thing was. :-) Maybe Julie will, or could ask him.
Sandra
polykowholsteins@...
Just came across this video on youtube. I think it was this thread I talked about how much fun I had playing Grand Theft Auto and here are the reaction of a few seniors playing it for the first time
http://www.dailydot.com/geek/grand-theft-auto-react/?fb=dd
Very interesting!
http://www.dailydot.com/geek/grand-theft-auto-react/?fb=dd
Very interesting!
chris ester
I think it was telling that one of the participants said that he would not want his grandchildren to play the game because it might encourage them to be violent, but that it would be "okay for normal people". Does this mean that his grandchildren are NOT "normal people"?
It was a lot of fun to watch though.
chris
On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 11:09 PM, polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:Just came across this video on youtube. I think it was this thread I talked about how much fun I had playing Grand Theft Auto and here are the reaction of a few seniors playing it for the first time
http://www.dailydot.com/geek/grand-theft-auto-react/?fb=dd
Very interesting!
bobcollier@...
A quick update on my own situation with GTA5. As mentioned previously, I signed the petition to have it removed from sale here in Australia. My teenage son bought himself a copy and has been playing it, amongst other videogames, for a couple of months now.
He acknowledges my point of view. He plays the game in the lounge, I'm usually elsewhere in the house. His girlfriend is a videogamer but I don't know if they've played GTA5 together. They've certainly played other videogames depicting scenes of violence (I know Borderlands 2 is a current favourite).
There has been no change in my son's personality. He's still the delight and treasure he has been through all of his many years of dedicating hours every day to first person shooters.
Bob
Marina DeLuca-Howard
No logic such as "if they pretend to shoot each other nobody goes to the ER to have a pretend bullet removed but if some child hits another with a stick and cuts him or her that could involve a trip to the ER with a real wound" will convince some people of the difference between real and imagined violence.
There were moms in the park when I'd take my now 19 year old willing to commit real violence to prevent games with abstract violence. They would wrestle kids to take toy guns out of their hands or sticks they were pretending were guns.
We have so much power as adults to perpetuate real physical and emotional damage. Its good to step back and be honest about what power and violence look like.
Can we honestly say it looks like a person sitting in front of a box pushing keys in pretend scenarios, solving problems and manipulating avatars across a screen?
Taking away something by force or using adult power and words to shame or disempower a child seems to me a pretty good description of violence. You have to ask how much real violence are people willing to commit to stop pretend violence, to see the situation clearly sometimes.
Marina
On 24 January 2015 at 18:50, bobcollier@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:A quick update on my own situation with GTA5. As mentioned previously, I signed the petition to have it removed from sale here in Australia. My teenage son bought himself a copy and has been playing it, amongst other videogames, for a couple of months now.
He acknowledges my point of view. He plays the game in the lounge, I'm usually elsewhere in the house. His girlfriend is a videogamer but I don't know if they've played GTA5 together. They've certainly played other videogames depicting scenes of violence (I know Borderlands 2 is a current favourite).There has been no change in my son's personality. He's still the delight and treasure he has been through all of his many years of dedicating hours every day to first person shooters.Bob--When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it? Eleanor Roosevelt
Nemo risum praebuit, qui ex se coepit - Nobody is laughed at, who laughs at himself. (Seneca)