Lorna Hogan

Hello,

I have been watching this group for sometime now, close to six
months. And I have five children. I am a homeschooler - and I
understand that children learn best on their own and I guess I am
trying to figure out how to keep up with the "records" of
homeschooling legaleze when it comes to unschooling.

What do you write down, what do record, how do you do it.

And also, how do you deprogramme say, a thirteen year old who seems
to have absolutely NO self motivation? How do you encourage a child
who seems to not want ANYTHING?

We are a family who has chosen to steer away from TV - since we have
moved to Maine eight months ago we have not owned a Tv, and I do not
forsee us getting one anytime soon. It became too much of a focus in
life to be happy with at all. We do watch movies, and have a radio
and computer.. but most boys at this age are into video games and the
like. We, as parents, have decided that we don't want that to be a
major part of our lives...

Do you have the children participate in daily chores of the
household? Or do you let them choose when they want to help and when
they want to veg? How do you do this.

I have a thirteen yr old boy, who wants to be all grown up and not
have me make any choices for him. I have a nine yr old girl who would
do anything to help mommy, and a seven yr old boy who loves to learn
outside all by himself, a four year old who thinks she IS the boss of
the whole world, and a two yr old boy who is close behind...

I have seen many many benefits to letting my children learn as they
wish - but it is a great challenge with my thirteen year old, as he
doesn't want to go find something on his own. he is so used to
direction and doesn't function well with "what do YOU want to do?"

I am confused as to how to unschool and keep records that will be
acceptable to the state... and how to help my kids really be who they
are meant to be - NOT according to me!

Maybe you can help?

Sandra Dodd

Recordkeeping isn't a topic for this list.


-=-I am a homeschooler - and I
understand that children learn best on their own and I guess I am
trying to figure out how to keep up with the "records" of
homeschooling legaleze when it comes to unschooling.

-=-What do you write down, what do record, how do you do it. -=-

There are some ideas here

http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum

but something as particular and local as how to keep records needs to
be addressed with people in your jurisdiction, so check here.

http://sandradodd.com/world

or do a web search for unschoolers in your area.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-And also, how do you deprogramme say, a thirteen year old who
seems to have absolutely NO self motivation? How do you encourage a
child who seems to not want ANYTHING? -=-
Deschooling. One month of nothingness/vacation for every year he was
schooled (in school or at home). Don't expect anything to happen if
you try to short-cut the deschooling. And assuming you've been in
school yourself for many of the years of your life, you probably need
twice as much deschooling as your son does.

-=- How do you encourage a child who seems to not want ANYTHING? -=-

How long have you been unschooling? Until he is comfortable and
interested in things again, I would say you accept your role in
having discouraged a child from wanting things, and give him
acceptance while he recovers.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling



Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-We are a family who has chosen to steer away from TV - since we have
moved to Maine eight months ago we have not owned a Tv, and I do not
forsee us getting one anytime soon. It became too much of a focus in
life to be happy with at all. We do watch movies, and have a radio
and computer.. but most boys at this age are into video games and the
like. We, as parents, have decided that we don't want that to be a
major part of our lives...-=-

This isn't a group for saying "good idea" about that.

(Are you sure you've been watching this group for six months?)

Economics of Restricting TV Watching of Children

http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics.html


HOW Unschooled Kids Watch TV

http://sandradodd.com/t/holly

(Both of those lead back to the main TV page.)



Logic and Parenting

http://sandradodd.com/joyce/logic



Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Do you have the children participate in daily chores of the
household?-=-
"Have them" like require or make them? I don't make my kids do
things, and because this has been true for many years, they volunteer
to help quite a bit, and if I ask for help they're almost always
eager to help. When they're not, I don't press them. The only way
they can choose to help is if they have a choice.

-=-Or do you let them choose when they want to help and when they
want to veg? How do you do this.-=-

I don't have a "veg" problem here at all. If my kids are busy
they're probably reading, or on the internet, or playing a video game
in which they're deeply engaged. They don't "veg."

How it works is the same way deschooling works. The parents have to
be willing to never get help again. You need to start seeing it as
your choice, and really, honestly, truly not expecting any help, and
then someday you might be surprised. Every time you throw a rant and
complain and try to assign chores, you have to start all over again.

http://sandradodd.com/chores



Sandra

Jenny C

> And also, how do you deprogramme say, a thirteen year old who seems
> to have absolutely NO self motivation? How do you encourage a child
> who seems to not want ANYTHING?

You can't deprogram a person unless you've totally programmed them to
begin with. I'm thinking of "brainwashing" type programming. A kid who
seems to not want anything, and has been told what to do by his parents,
is a kid who has no idea what it's like to make decisions for himself.
A kid who has been making their own decisions for a long time and seems
to not want anything could be in a processing, or down time mode.


> We are a family who has chosen to steer away from TV - since we have
> moved to Maine eight months ago we have not owned a Tv, and I do not
> forsee us getting one anytime soon. It became too much of a focus in
> life to be happy with at all.

Does every person in the house feel this way or just the parents? That
can cause kids to feel really powerless in decision making if they are
thwarted in their attempts to like something that the parents deem
unfit, such as TV.

I can tell you from first hand experience, having grown up in a TV free
house, that my kids, with complete and free access to TV, seem much
happier about TV than I did when I was a kid and wished I could watch it
and couldn't. My husband and I opted not to do that to our kids. Our 7
yro watches a lot of TV and our 14 yro, watches very little, but used to
watch a lot when she was little. Both our kids are happy.

>We do watch movies, and have a radio
> and computer.. but most boys at this age are into video games and the
> like. We, as parents, have decided that we don't want that to be a
> major part of our lives...

What part don't you want to be major, radio, computer, or video games?
If life is full of ALL choices, those won't be the only things to choose
from.


> Do you have the children participate in daily chores of the
> household? Or do you let them choose when they want to help and when
> they want to veg? How do you do this.

Since I'm the parent, I do the daily housework. They choose when they
want to help. Neither of my kids have vegged out. If they are spending
more time inactively, it's because they are tired or sick or need rest.
It's not an either/or where they choose to work or vegg. They don't do
either of those things usually. They are usually involved in their own
projects.

When Chamille, now 14, was little, we did a quick pick up every night,
but it wasn't mandatory and we did it together. I let that go with
Margaux, now 7, because she plays differently, in an ongoing fashion,
where things can't be easily put away.

The other day Chamille did all the dishes while my husband and I were
out, it was a sweet surprise for us to come home to. She routinely
cleans the bathroom that she uses without anyone asking.

> I have a thirteen yr old boy, who wants to be all grown up and not
> have me make any choices for him.

Perhaps you are making the wrong choices for him. Perhaps he needs real
choices that directly affect his life, like wether or not he wants to
watch TV or play video games, without having his parents place judgement
on those choices.

> I have seen many many benefits to letting my children learn as they
> wish - but it is a great challenge with my thirteen year old, as he
> doesn't want to go find something on his own. he is so used to
> direction and doesn't function well with "what do YOU want to do?"

This is directly because you've told him what to feel, and think about
some very basic things in his life. Is he free to say what he really
thinks and do what he really wants to do, without judgement? Until he
is allowed this, he will feel powerless and act accordingly. He needs
to be able to make real choices for himself, not arbitrary, "what do you
want to do in your spare time?" kind of choices.

Traditional parenting tells people to limit and control what their kids
do, for their own good. The problem is, that once they turn 13 or so,
they want some more control and less limits, and they'll get it
eventually because kids grow up and move out. How do you want that
process to look? Do you want a continuous struggle until he leaves, or
do you want to change the dynamics? This is a natural part of life,
gaining more independence, more choices, and bigger thinking. As a
parent, you can either embrace that and move with it, or try to block
it. This can happen naturally and a lot of parents can't see that
because our world around us is telling parents to control and limit our
kids for their protection, own good, etc. It doesn't have to be that
way!!!!!!

It is sooo much nicer to help your kids grow into adulthood with mutual
respect.

> I am confused as to how to unschool and keep records that will be
> acceptable to the state... and how to help my kids really be who they
> are meant to be - NOT according to me!

Some states have more difficult regulations to follow, but there are
unschoolers in every state. I would suggest a state unschoolers list
where you live to ask how others do it in your area.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 6, 2008, at 8:06 PM, Lorna Hogan wrote:

> I am trying to figure out how to keep up with the "records" of
> homeschooling legaleze when it comes to unschooling.


That's best taken to a state list since the details are different for
each state.

Try the support group listings at:

http://www.nhen.org/support/groups/browse.asp

You can also ask on:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewEnglandUnschooling/

> Do you have the children participate in daily chores of the
> household? Or do you let them choose when they want to help and
> when they want to veg? How do you do this.


No chores. I do ask for help but the request is a real question and
she can say no. I retain full responsibility for the house. If I ask
for help, I'm fully aware I'm asking for someone to set their life
aside to do something for me, as I would with a friend.

There's a lot here on chores:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
http://sandradodd.com/chores

It's also helpful not to see kids activities through the lens of
"veg". They are choosing to do what *to them* is important. We can't
see their needs and shouldn't judge how they're choosing to meet
them. If we want to them to respect our needs that they don't agree
with or understand, we need to spend *years* of modeling respecting
their needs and choices, *especially* the ones that we don't
understand, like a need for downtime when mom has just put in her
fifth load of laundry. (Though we can step in and help them find safe
and respectful ways to meet a need when they're stepping on toes.)

And the benefit is that when we've put in years of respecting their
needs, when we're trying to get the laundry done and the beds made
before company comes we can say "Hey, I could use some help here,"
and the kids will say "Sure!" When we don't impose on their time
because of some false sense of them owing us, when we've been
generous with our help meeting the needs *they* feel are important
(eg, making healthy meals for them isn't their need but our desire to
cook in a certain way), then they'll be generous with their time. We
will *be* someone they want to help.

> And also, how do you deprogramme say, a thirteen year old who seems
> to have absolutely NO self motivation? How do you encourage a child
> who seems to not want ANYTHING?


Some of what you're seeing may be you filtering him though what you
expect he should be like. Some may be just who he is. Some may be
caused by schoolish methods.

If he had a broken leg, how would you fix him? Would you hover over
him looking for signs of walking? Would you put his meal out on the
kitchen table on his first day in the cast to motivate him to walk?

What you do is give the leg time to heal in an environment that's
helpful to healing both the body and the spirit. You nurture him. You
meet his immediate needs. You create an environment where it's easy
for him to meet his needs and in time he'll walk.

If he has "NO self motivation" is he in bed all day staring at the
wall, not eating, not going to the bathroom? Or by "NO self
motivation" do you mean he's not doing what you see as valuable?

If you see him through the lens of "NO self motivation" you won't be
able to see where he is motivated.

Make a nurturing environment for him. What does he love? Don't just
think in terms of academics or even interests. Does he glow if you
bring him something to drink while he's reading? Start thinking about
everything he loves without sorting it into categories of good and
bad, academic and entertainment. *Everything* they're interested in
is part of the way they learn.

Do you see the contradiction between this:

> and how to help my kids really be who they are meant to be - NOT
> according to me!

and this:

> We, as parents, have decided that we don't want that to be a major
> part of our lives..

I understand where you're coming from. You feel there are some places
where parents need to draw the line to create harmony or safety
because the kids weren't making the right choices on their own.

And yet the kids of radical unschoolers are given freedom and aren't
spending their lives on the couch in front of the big screen TV with
a bowl of chips and a six pack of Coke. Why is that? Is it just
because our kids are naturally good so we get the luxury of trusting
them to make the choices we would make for them?

No, it's the other way around. We can trust them to make thoughtful
choices because we've trusted them to make thoughtful choices. People
who begin with restrictions -- with kids they were sure had no
ability to control themselves -- have found that by saying yes more
that their kids do find balance in their lives.

Watching a lot of TV isn't the result of TVs presence in the house.
That's giving the TV too much power. Your kids are more powerful than
the TV.

One thing that helped my daughter during her Cartoon Network years is
TiVo. When she knew she could watch her favorite programs anytime she
wanted, she watched a lot less. That feeling of being controlled by
the programmers of the stations to have to be in front of the TV when
they said she could watch her show kept her there waiting. The TiVo
gave her back the control. Also key is providing activities that are
*better* than TV. If kids are choosing TV because it's the least
boring thing to do, then why wouldn't they watch TV? It's just common
sense. And "better" needs to be better by their standards. Games and
toys that they've played with aren't better. (If they were better the
kids would be doing that instead.) It involves us being more
proactive at bringing things into their lives and getting them
outside the house to new things. (No one said unschooling was for
lazy people! ;-)

*And* it also means being sensitive to their needs. Sometimes they
*will* want to watch TV. And during the "middle school" years they
may very likely want to watch a lot more TV than they did when they
were younger (or will as teens). It's a transition period between kid
interests and more grown up interests.

> I have seen many many benefits to letting my children learn as they
> wish - but it is a great challenge with my thirteen year old, as he
> doesn't want to go find something on his own. he is so used to
> direction and doesn't function well with "what do YOU want to do?"


It may just be who he is. While my daughter at 17 does now have
passions she can pick up, if I ask "What do you want to do?" at the
beginning of the day she'll often have no idea. People who are even
keeled can have problems picking from a wealth of choices when one
doesn't jump out (which it often doesn't for even keeled people.)
It's just who they are. (I'm the same way.)

While she has things she loves doing on her own, drawing, writing,
guitar, other activities she likes to do because it's fun to do with
someone else. And often it's more fun when someone else does the
choosing. I do give her the opportunity to voice her preference but I
accept that I'm the one who will have to do most of the choosing.

> We are a family who has chosen to steer away from TV


Be clear. When you say "we are a family who" was this a decision
mutually agreed on by all? Or do you mean you and your husband decided?

Even in a family decision, unless someone is really savvy about how
unequal power disrupts what looks like equality, family decisions
aren't usually mutual. Children know they can't say "Hey, I changed
my mind. We're getting a TV today." They know they don't have that
power. They know that any power they have is loaned to them by their
parents and can be taken away at any time.

This is when radical unschoolers get accused of promoting TV as
though families can't unschool without TV. No, what gets argued is
that unschooling can't flourish when kids lives are narrowed by
parents choices for them.

If you had kids who loved Chinese food and you hated it, would it
make sense to ban it? There are unschooling vegetarian parents who
have allowed their kids the freedom to explore a world of food that
includes meat and make their own choices.

If you had problems that seemed to come from TV, then this is the
place to ask for help in making it work. There are plenty of people
here who had the same experience. They didn't just shut their eyes
and ears to it and grit their teeth. They found ways to make it work.
There's a wealth of wisdom here to tap into that doesn't involve
parents banning something kids love.

> most boys at this age are into video games and the like

Why do you think that is?

Most pregnant moms are into large intakes of calories. Why do you
think that is?

Those are meeting some need they have at those times in their lives.

If it were a truism that "most boys at this age are into books",
wouldn't you be supplying books? Why wouldn't you supply video games?

I know why you think so. I know the arguments against video games and
the voices in your head that are saying video games (and resultant
behavior) are bad. So I don't say this out of ignorance. I say it
from my personal experience and the experience of hundreds of radical
unschoolers (some of whom began with restrictions): the arguments are
wrong. There are hundreds of radically unschooled kids who have been
given the freedom to play games who are vibrant interesting teens who
are not addicted to video games. My daughter, too, played a lot of
video games and watched a lot of TV during the "middle school" years.
It tapered off as her needs changed and today she barely has time for
video games or TV.

When you trust that kids are getting something you don't understand
for a need you can't see, then you can see better why video games and
TV aren't bad. If you join in and play and watch to get enough sense
of why they enjoy something, that not only helps you get the knot
from your stomach but helps forge a stronger relationship with them
because you're showing you care enough to find out who they are and
find out about what they enjoy. There may be issues around video
games and TV: arguing, testiness but those are side issues that can
be dealt with separately.

If your son was painting beautiful pictures but it made him testy
with the family, would you take away his paints?

> I have a thirteen yr old boy, who wants to be all grown up and not
> have me make any choices for him.

This doesn't get any easier. Soon he will be making his own choices
and you won't be able to stop him.

Control over kids is an illusion. We do have the opportunity to be an
influence in their lives but we blow that by trying to maintain the
illusion we can control them. Once they have the ability to walk out
the door because they're fed up with being told what to do and what
not to do, we've lost even the illusion of control and have
squandered our influence. It's not too soon to get:

Parent/Teen Breakthrough: The relationship approach
http://tinyurl.com/6g4ucv

Do it now. It will be much much harder later when his available
choices are sex and drugs and driving under the influence.

Joyce

Angela Shaw

<What do you write down, what do record, how do you do it. >



I also live in Maine. It is as easy as finding an evaluator that supports
unschooling. http://www.geocities.com/mainehomeed Here is a list of
evaluators you can call and talk to. Ask each one what they expect from you
and go with the one that you are most comfortable with.




>And also, how do you deprogramme say, a thirteen year old who seems
to have absolutely NO self motivation? How do you encourage a child
who seems to not want ANYTHING? >

It sounds to me like you used to tell him what to do and how to do it and
now you don't (and call it unschooling) and he is not choosing to do things
that you deem worthy, so you see him as unmotivated.

I have a 13 year old who has never been schooled (at home or in school)
Each day she does whatever she wants to do. She has her own internal
motivations and no matter what she chooses, I don't choose to see her as
unmotivated. She plays a lot of runescape, rides and cares for her horse,
rides and cares for other people's horses, cares for her cats and rabbit,
walks the dog with me, watches TV (we are into crime shows these days,
Survivor, and Smallville).

She's been busy lately making small cross stitched Christmas ornaments to
give away for Christmas. We play games at times, talk a lot, volunteer
occasionally at the animal shelter, and hang out. I pick up her friends as
often as they can come over and bring them back. (lately only a couple times
a week because they are busy with school) I get her to pony club and I run a
small 4-H that she loves. She still gets into pretend play from time to
time. She is as busy as she wants to be. It looks nothing like what
schooled children do, but she's happy and learning all the time. She is
pleasant to be around and she is very helpful and kind. She is fun and
funny. She's intelligent and thoughtful. I'm glad to count her as one of
my friends.



<We are a family who has chosen to steer away from TV> and the
like. We, as parents, have decided that we don't want that to be a
major part of our lives...>

Did the kids get to choose not to have a tv? (if not, I would not call it a
family decision, personally.)


<Do you have the children participate in daily chores of the
household? Or do you let them choose when they want to help and when
they want to veg? How do you do this.>



My kids do not have chores but they help around the house daily. They help
care for all our animals. They usually help pick up a specific area if I
ask. (maybe the kitchen table top) My standards aren't very high and I do
most of the cleaning myself. They can always say no.

<I have a thirteen yr old boy, who wants to be all grown up and not
have me make any choices for him. >

I have always allowed my kids to make as many choices as they could safely
handle and they value my input and want to know my opinion on their choices,
esp. the big ones. It's about the relationship we have. They trust that I
want to help them get what they want.


<I have seen many many benefits to letting my children learn as they
wish - but it is a great challenge with my thirteen year old, as he
doesn't want to go find something on his own. he is so used to
direction and doesn't function well with "what do YOU want to do?" >



What does a normal day look like for him? Maybe he's doing more than you
give him credit for?

Angela



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-You can't deprogram a person unless you've totally programmed them to
begin with.-=-

Ooooh. Good point. And even then, some of the programming is always
going to be there.

It's damage, and even if damage is "undone," the memory and maybe
some of the pain can remain.

-=-Does every person in the house feel this way or just the parents?
That can cause kids to feel really powerless in decision making if
they are thwarted in their attempts to like something that the
parents deem unfit, such as TV.-=-

They'll BE powerless, and that's another great point. If the parents
show by actions that they don't care what the kids want, and then say
in words "What do you want?" why would the kids feel comfortable and
confident in responding? When there's too much "no," kids stop
asking (and sometimes start sneaking).

Exactly:

-=-This is directly because you've told him what to feel, and think
about some very basic things in his life. Is he free to say what he
really thinks and do what he really wants to do, without judgement?
Until he is allowed this, he will feel powerless and act accordingly.
He needs to be able to make real choices for himself, not arbitrary,
"what do you want to do in your spare time?" kind of choices.-=-

I tell my kids what to do sometimes, but for their benefit, not
mind. Yeah, yeah... that's what parents say who forbid TV or require
homework and an hour of piano practice or whatever all. But what I
tell my kids to do is to be thoughtful, consider other people's
feelings, and the effects a week or a year from now of what they're
considering doing. And then I walk away happy, because Holly at 17
and Marty at 19 have been making good decisions for 17 and 19 years.
There are adults, parents, who haven't made good decisions yet!

When people ask whether unschoolers are ahead or behind, they're
usually thinking of algebra or memorizing something that would turn
worthless if they moved to another state or another country. My kids
are WAY ahead of most people their age in the ability to learn and to
live in the world as a responsible person.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> *And* it also means being sensitive to their needs. Sometimes they
> *will* want to watch TV. And during the "middle school" years they
> may very likely want to watch a lot more TV than they did when they
> were younger (or will as teens). It's a transition period between kid
> interests and more grown up interests.


Or, as is the case in our house, both my girls seem to have really liked
TV early on. Chamille stopped being really interested in TV a few years
back, about age 11 or so. She still loves movies and certain shows, but
her TV viewing became more specific, her focus narrowed to certain
things, she expanded with the internet and YouTube, and her focus
stopped being TV specific.

Margaux is much more general about her TV viewing, like Chamille was at
that age, she watches anything that looks remotely interesting to her.
Something else that happens, is that my kids have ALWAYS watched TV
while doing other things, it's never a solitary event. Only on very few
occasions have my kids sat down on the couch to watch something
purposeful without doing other things, and in those cases, it's usually
the whole family watching something together (Harry Potter movies
especially!).


>Children know they can't say "Hey, I changed
> my mind. We're getting a TV today." They know they don't have that
> power. They know that any power they have is loaned to them by their
> parents and can be taken away at any time.

Absolutely! You can't have REAL choices unless you have the power to
change your mind! Chamille spent a few years really disliking rap
music, in general. Her best friend is in total agreement with that.
Lately though, Chamille has started to expand her musical preferences to
MANY genres, including rap and R&B, while still not her favorite, she's
open about it and has actually really liked some of it. Her friend
doesn't understand this at all, but she's also a kid who is highly
controlled and can't make any decisions for herself except reactionary
ones.

I love this about unschooling and freedom of choices! My teen is hugely
open to many things. I really don't see her schooled peers doing this.
Last night we watched the history channel, a show about WW2,
specifically about Japan and technology and inner workings of the
Japanese army and civilians. A few months ago, we watched Grave of the
Fireflies (really sad movie), which connected perfectly to what we
watched last night. With the miriad of choices of things to watch on
TV, I don't know many teens that would choose to watch a history show
about the Japanese army (except unschooled kids and maybe a few
homeschooled kids).

Jenny C

> How it works is the same way deschooling works. The parents have to
> be willing to never get help again. You need to start seeing it as
> your choice, and really, honestly, truly not expecting any help, and
> then someday you might be surprised.

I can tell you first hand that the surprises come in leaps and bounds!
Actually, I'm not surprised, I had a lot of faith and trust that one day
my daughter would help on her own without prompting, but still it's like
little gifts every time she does it because I never expect it!

I thought I would always be the one to clean out the cat litter boxes
because Chamille has a strong gag reflex. Now, about half the time I go
in there to clean them, they're already clean! When I'm doing dishes,
she will often bring me all the dishes scattered throughout the house,
simply because she sees a need and wants to help.

The other day when she did ALL the dishes by hand while we were out, she
actually had a friend over. Her friend was being boring and Chamille
actually found doing the dishes to be less boring then her friend!

m_aduhene

hello,

> and an hour of piano practice or whatever all.

I know someone, who is homeschooling, who would insist on this. She
made a comment recently that her dd (7) was getting along really well
with the piano, which made me wonder in me am I depriving my children
of something.....? This same concept applies to the rest of this
person's schooling in that her children must finish what they start
even if it takes all day.

I am just asking, in the "veteran" unschooling family's experience,
and related to this comment too:

> My kids are WAY ahead of most people their age in the ability to
learn and to live in the world as a responsible person.

Is this true of all unschooled children? Can children cope with
"being made" to play something, or tackle activities like maths (this
person's dd is really good at writing but has to do all the subjects)
which she is not very good at. Does it really "do that much damage"?
I have to really overcome all my fears sometimes when I speak to this
person as the way she describes it her dd is good at almost everything
she tries, yet she has this more formal set up. My children at the
moment are dibbing and dabbing and into everything. They chat and
make links to all sorts of things, tv programmes, books, films etc.
Also is it not true that schooled or more formally homeschooled
children can be "way ahead….......etc".
I could not use this person's approach but am interested to know your
thoughts.
Thanx
Blessings
michelle I

Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 7, 2008, at 12:45 PM, m_aduhene wrote:

> Can children cope with
> "being made" to play something, or tackle activities like maths (this
> person's dd is really good at writing but has to do all the subjects)
> which she is not very good at. Does it really "do that much damage"?

Yes, they can cope. Do you want your child to live having to "cope?"

Does it really do that much damage? Sometimes, for a few really strong
kids, hardly any. Do you want to do any damage?

I know homeschooling families and schooled-kid families with great
kids. I'm not one to say that unschooling is the only way to end up
with happy and successful kids.

I think two of my three kids would have coped and had little damage
done by some level of gentle schooling. I think Rosie would have been
seriously harmed. But, I will also say that I know my kids wouldn't be
who they are today if they'd been schooled all those years. Knowing
them and how they'd cope and what kinds of insidious damage would have
been done, I'm really really glad we unschooled.

There are clear risks of schooling. There are likely outcomes (math
anxiety is extremely probable, losing interest in reading for pleasure
is common, hating to write - typical result).

-pam

Jenny C

>Can children cope with
> "being made" to play something, or tackle activities like maths (this
> person's dd is really good at writing but has to do all the subjects)
> which she is not very good at. Does it really "do that much damage"?

The simple fact that a child is made to feel that they are NOT good at
something IS damage! In the absence of having to do subjects, she will
be good at whatever she enjoys doing, and learning a great deal all at
the same time!


> I have to really overcome all my fears sometimes when I speak to this
> person as the way she describes it her dd is good at almost everything
> she tries,

Except all those things she's not good at!

>My children at the
> moment are dibbing and dabbing and into everything. They chat and
> make links to all sorts of things, tv programmes, books, films etc.
> Also is it not true that schooled or more formally homeschooled
> children can be "way ahead….......etc".

Into everything is good! Don't squash that idea! Into everything,
creates connectedness to all things, especially things that they really
really like. Kind of like never ending trails that go in all directions
forever and ever.

As far as "way ahead", it depends on how one defines that idea. If you
are strictly speaking, way ahead in test scores or school level, that's
arbitrary and sometimes not lasting. If you never measure a kid against
others, they will never be behind or ahead, they will be themselves and
into what they are into and learning what they are learning.

Sandra Dodd

-=->Children know they can't say "Hey, I changed
> my mind. We're getting a TV today." They know they don't have that
> power. They know that any power they have is loaned to them by their
> parents and can be taken away at any time.-=-



But it's true of unschooled kids. The power and freedom they have
was decided on by me and Keith, and it continues because we protect
them from the pressures and opinions of others. If Keith and I
stopped agreeing, the whole lovely plan could go to hell (for Holly,
anyway; the boys are "past school age" and all we could do would be
to charge them rent or throw them out (Kirby's already out, but...)

Parents have power, authority and responsibility. They can choose to
share it out, but they're not required by law to. They are
prohibited by law from exercising zero power, authority or
responsibility.



Sandra

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Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 7, 2008, at 2:15 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> -=->Children know they can't say "Hey, I changed
>> my mind. We're getting a TV today." They know they don't have that
>> power. They know that any power they have is loaned to them by their
>> parents and can be taken away at any time.-=-
>
>
>
> But it's true of unschooled kids.

Rephrased - kids know from past experience how their parents are
likely to respond. Unschooled kids expect their parents will seriously
consider any request the child makes. If my whole family had decided,
together, on "no tv in our house" and later a kid changed their mind,
they wouldn't hesitate to say, "You know this whole "no tv thing?"
I've changed my mind." But a kid who is used to parents flaunting
their power won't be able to calmly do that. They'll likely only bring
it up if they care so much that they willing to engage in a battle
over the "issue."

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-I have to really overcome all my fears sometimes when I speak to this
person as the way she describes it her dd is good at almost everything
she tries, yet she has this more formal set up. -=-



Her daughter is seven. Ten or eleven more years of being told what
to do and when and how might not be nearly as much fun for her. At
least when kids go to school, they get to go home at the end of the
day. When home becomes school, where do they go to get away from it?

-=-> My kids are WAY ahead of most people their age in the ability to
learn and to live in the world as a responsible person.

-=-Is this true of all unschooled children? -=-

I don't think any one thing is true of all members of any group.
Some people's unschooling is just sort of. But in this question:

-=-Is this true of all unschooled children? Can children cope
with"being made" to play something, or tackle activities like maths
(this person's dd is really good at writing but has to do all the
subjects) which she is not very good at. Does it really "do that much
damage"?-=-

The first sentence doesn't belong with the rest of it. Being made to
do things isn't unschooling and it will cancel out any hope that the
parent can claim to have unschooled throughout.

Maybe some of the time you mean to say homeschooling?



Some schooled kids are whole and confident and calm and responsible.
Some unschoolers aren't. But there are some things that can't be
denied. Letting and helping young children learn to make choices
with money in small amounts gives them years of practice and
advisement. They will handle money better than someone who never had
any options until he had his first job or took a school loan and
couldn't help himself from blowing some of it on spending money
freely for the first time EVER. Deciding what to eat for breakfast
for the first time at the age of 18 could cause more problems for a
college student in a dorm who has places to be and important
(expensive) things to do than for a five or ten year old kid to make
iffy choices, at home, on a day when there's nothing pressing.

Practicing with low stakes and small amounts of money and pressure is
just one of many examples of what can be seen to work better for
typical or average unschooling teens than for kids who are teens in
school for the tenth or twelfth year straight.



Sandra

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Katy

<<<<they have been asking questions about the festival and, of course, they are expecting to see stereotypical images there.>>>>

What type of festival? The traditions of the different groups/tribes can vary widely. I don't really have any ideas for a quick introduction into Native Americans in general. My family has been pretty surrounded by Native culture all of my life, both due to location and my dad's job. We live in southern New Mexico, very close to the Mescalero Apache Nation, and my dad worked with the tribe quite a bit and had many friends on the reservation.
We also have close friends whom we consider family who are Laguna Pueblo (mom is Laguna, dad is Spanish, actually). Apache and Pueblo traditions are very different.
I don't know as much about the traditions of the other Native peoples in the US as I do Apache and Pueblo.

I would search online for the specific festival that you will be attending. Since it is a festival, there will probably be more stereotypical images present than usual. Many may be in full ceremonial clothing. I have met people though, who came to the southwest truly expecting all indians they met to be wearing deerskin dresses and feathers.

Here is a website that gives a history of the Mescalero:
http://www.innofthemountaingods.com/mescalerohistory1.asp<http://www.innofthemountaingods.com/mescalerohistory1.asp>

And here is a website with some info about the Laguna and other Pueblos:
http://www.indianpueblo.org/19pueblos/laguna.html<http://www.indianpueblo.org/19pueblos/laguna.html>

The library should have children's stories by Native American authors, and about their beliefs and traditional life. We have tons of them, ones I see in this room are
Snail Girl Brings Water, a Navajo story, retold by Geri Keams
Little Man's Family (also Navajo), by J.B. Enochs
Circle of Wonder: A Native American Christmas Story, by N. Scott Momaday (Jemez Pueblo story, there is another version also that I haven't seen)
Sing Down the Rain, by Judy Moreillon (Papago)
Antelope Woman, an Apache Folktale, by Michael Lacapa

The scene in the Addams Family Values where Wednesday and Pugsly are in the Thanksgiving play is great, that could be an opening to talk about Thanksgiving myths.

Katy J.



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Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 7, 2008, at 3:45 PM, m_aduhene wrote:

> her dd (7) was getting along really well
> with the piano

What does that mean?

You may have an image of your child happily progressing through a
piano book, gaining joy and dazzling skill. And when you hear her say
"getting along really well", you're unconsciously thinking she's
given that gift to her daughter.

I'm betting by "really well" she means making it through the piano
book. It says nothing about whether her daughter is enjoying her
exploration of the piano and music.

I think where parental thinking takes a wrong turn into confusion
over these kinds of things is that child prodigies often take lessons
early so it seems like the early lessons caused the early blooming.
But not so. The early blooming comes from passion and drive that just
happens to be in them that pulls them through the lessons. It's not
lit by lessons.

While there may be the occasional adult who appreciates having been
made to practice as a child, I'm betting the number who want nothing
to do with an instrument they were made to practice is at least ten
times as many. Think of it this way, if you wanted to prevent a child
from playing the piano as an adult, wouldn't a good way be to start
building up negative associations with the instrument as a child like
forced lessons?

> the way she describes it her dd is good at almost everything
> she tries, yet she has this more formal set up.
>

That's because we equate doing well in school with being smart and
successful. But is it true?

Is her daughter gaining a useful understanding of how the world
operates or is she learning how to do tests? Schools want us to
believe they're one and the same but they aren't.

> Also is it not true that schooled or more formally homeschooled
> children can be "way ahead�.......etc".
>

Way ahead of what? If kids are being made to jump through hoops in
school (and homeschool) aren't they going to be good at jumping
through hoops? But what do the hoops mean and why do you want your
kids to be good at jumping through them?

Joyce

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