Suggestions on peacefully fixing a parental error.
gocnagai
Long story short:
We messed up and I'm not sure how to fix it. We offered our 12 year old an iPad in exchange for helping to watch his 4 year old brother for 3 weeks while we worked a Christmas tree lot. He lasted 1 week before quitting and not helping out at all the final 2 weeks. He did great the first week and it takes 2 weeks for Apple to ship the iPad so I ordered it. It came today and he's upset that he doesn't get it, even though we talked about it weeks ago after he quit. He was upset and crying and wouldn't talk about it.
I am not sure what to say or do in order to have him feel better without giving him something he didn't earn. I know it was a crappy deal to make and we should never have done it. We are new to unschooling and at times revert to the way we did things in the past.
I'll end by saying that we didn't scold or belittle him when he didn't fulfill his agreement. He asked of he could still have the iPad and I told him he couldn't. I was a little surprised when he burst into hysterics tonight, but I guess the site of it made him feel like a failure and that bothers me.
P.S. I read all the new member guidelines before posting. :)
We messed up and I'm not sure how to fix it. We offered our 12 year old an iPad in exchange for helping to watch his 4 year old brother for 3 weeks while we worked a Christmas tree lot. He lasted 1 week before quitting and not helping out at all the final 2 weeks. He did great the first week and it takes 2 weeks for Apple to ship the iPad so I ordered it. It came today and he's upset that he doesn't get it, even though we talked about it weeks ago after he quit. He was upset and crying and wouldn't talk about it.
I am not sure what to say or do in order to have him feel better without giving him something he didn't earn. I know it was a crappy deal to make and we should never have done it. We are new to unschooling and at times revert to the way we did things in the past.
I'll end by saying that we didn't scold or belittle him when he didn't fulfill his agreement. He asked of he could still have the iPad and I told him he couldn't. I was a little surprised when he burst into hysterics tonight, but I guess the site of it made him feel like a failure and that bothers me.
P.S. I read all the new member guidelines before posting. :)
Rachel
I would fix it by apologizing to your son for making that sort of deal in the first place and then would give him the IPad.
I am not at all surprised that he was hysterical about not getting it.
Rachel
I am not at all surprised that he was hysterical about not getting it.
Rachel
On 22 Dec 2012, at 10:47, "gocnagai" <gocnagai@...> wrote:
> Long story short:
> We messed up and I'm not sure how to fix it. We offered our 12 year old an iPad in exchange for helping to watch his 4 year old brother for 3 weeks while we worked a Christmas tree lot. He lasted 1 week before quitting and not helping out at all the final 2 weeks. He did great the first week and it takes 2 weeks for Apple to ship the iPad so I ordered it. It came today and he's upset that he doesn't get it, even though we talked about it weeks ago after he quit. He was upset and crying and wouldn't talk about it.
> I am not sure what to say or do in order to have him feel better without giving him something he didn't earn. I know it was a crappy deal to make and we should never have done it. We are new to unschooling and at times revert to the way we did things in the past.
> I'll end by saying that we didn't scold or belittle him when he didn't fulfill his agreement. He asked of he could still have the iPad and I told him he couldn't. I was a little surprised when he burst into hysterics tonight, but I guess the site of it made him feel like a failure and that bothers me.
> P.S. I read all the new member guidelines before posting. :)
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 22, 2012, at 2:47 AM, gocnagai wrote:
What principle are you standing by? And is that principle more important than him, his feelings and your relationship with him?
While I agree that offering someone payment for a job then giving them the payment even if they don't do the job is a poor set of values. So, don't hold those values. Don't make another deal like that that would put you in this position.
Apologize for setting up such a big deal around a job he wasn't ready to handle. Apologize for tying the job to something he really wanted. Give him the iPad. And then don't make another deal like that. In the future help him get what's important to him.
Joyce
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> He asked of he could still have the iPad and I told him he couldn't. I was aPerhaps. But since he asked if he could have it then burst into hysterics, I suspect the iPad is something that seems very important to him. It's right there within his reach but you're a barrier between him and it.
> little surprised when he burst into hysterics tonight, but I guess the site of it
> made him feel like a failure and that bothers me.
What principle are you standing by? And is that principle more important than him, his feelings and your relationship with him?
While I agree that offering someone payment for a job then giving them the payment even if they don't do the job is a poor set of values. So, don't hold those values. Don't make another deal like that that would put you in this position.
Apologize for setting up such a big deal around a job he wasn't ready to handle. Apologize for tying the job to something he really wanted. Give him the iPad. And then don't make another deal like that. In the future help him get what's important to him.
Joyce
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<<<<<<<<I'll end by saying that we didn't scold or belittle him when he didn't fulfill his agreement. He asked of he could still have the iPad and I told him he couldn't. I was a little surprised when he burst into hysterics tonight, but I guess the site of it made him feel like a failure and that bothers me.
P.S. I read all the new member guidelines before posting. :)
I would have wrapped the IPad and given him for Christmas ( if that is what you celebrate for the Holidays).
I would have been grateful he was so good to his little brother for a week and helped out.
It was not his mistake. I sounds like he tried his best and just could not handle it. I sounds like it was too much for him.
I would have cried and gone into hysterics too. I would have dreamed about that Ipad for weeks.
Alex Polikowsky
__
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
P.S. I read all the new member guidelines before posting. :)
>>>>>>.So you made a mistake and promissed him something in exchange for something he could not handle and now he is being punished for it.
I would have wrapped the IPad and given him for Christmas ( if that is what you celebrate for the Holidays).
I would have been grateful he was so good to his little brother for a week and helped out.
It was not his mistake. I sounds like he tried his best and just could not handle it. I sounds like it was too much for him.
I would have cried and gone into hysterics too. I would have dreamed about that Ipad for weeks.
Alex Polikowsky
__
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Sandra Dodd
-=-I am not sure what to say or do in order to have him feel better without giving him something he didn't earn. -=-
He was too little for that job. You failed; he didn't.
If you agreed to dam up a river for a trip to DisneyWorld, and it turned out to be impossible for you to dam up the river, you didn't fail. The person who made the offer cheated you cruelly.
Sandra
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He was too little for that job. You failed; he didn't.
If you agreed to dam up a river for a trip to DisneyWorld, and it turned out to be impossible for you to dam up the river, you didn't fail. The person who made the offer cheated you cruelly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'll end by saying that we didn't scold or belittle him when he didn't fulfill his agreement. He asked of he could still have the iPad and I told him he couldn't.-=-
Please don't delude or comfort yourself.
He felt belittled and punished.
You're not building a good relationship in any way, nor are you moving toward unschooling.
Are you using an iPad to train him? To shame him?
An iPad is a fantastic learning tool. Learning should be your primary focus. I hope by the time you read this, he's been playing the iPad for many hours and you've apologized profusely.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Please don't delude or comfort yourself.
He felt belittled and punished.
You're not building a good relationship in any way, nor are you moving toward unschooling.
Are you using an iPad to train him? To shame him?
An iPad is a fantastic learning tool. Learning should be your primary focus. I hope by the time you read this, he's been playing the iPad for many hours and you've apologized profusely.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Misa Knight
You tell him, "We made a mistake. Ew gave you a job that was too big for
you. But you did an excellent job the first week and we would really like
you to have this, since it is so important to you."
If you something more, for yourselves, to somehow justify that, you could
try this: Sit down by yourselves first. Figure out how much the iPad cost.
Figure out how many hours of helping he did. Divide the cost of the iPad by
the number of hours. We often pay teen sitters less than adults, but I
personally think it should be more - very often, the teen is more likely to
play with the kid and the job is HARDER for the teen than the adult. Very
likely, the cost per hour would be worth it to you.
Alternatively, you could just tell yourself that you are fulfilling a
much-wanted wish if your son with a device you already have. And you know
it will be useful to him - fun AND he will learn a lot from it.
I remember something similar from my own childhood and my mom never gave me
the item I wanted. The lesson I took from that was that my mom was that
sticking to her guns was apparently more important than me - because I
tried my best but it was too much.
Ask yourself what the more loving choice is: holding onto the iPad because
he didn't "earn it" or giving it to him because it will bring him a lot of
joy?
- Misa
PS - as a compromise, if Christmas is something you celebrate, it would
make an excellent gift - he earned part, you gifted the rest.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
you. But you did an excellent job the first week and we would really like
you to have this, since it is so important to you."
If you something more, for yourselves, to somehow justify that, you could
try this: Sit down by yourselves first. Figure out how much the iPad cost.
Figure out how many hours of helping he did. Divide the cost of the iPad by
the number of hours. We often pay teen sitters less than adults, but I
personally think it should be more - very often, the teen is more likely to
play with the kid and the job is HARDER for the teen than the adult. Very
likely, the cost per hour would be worth it to you.
Alternatively, you could just tell yourself that you are fulfilling a
much-wanted wish if your son with a device you already have. And you know
it will be useful to him - fun AND he will learn a lot from it.
I remember something similar from my own childhood and my mom never gave me
the item I wanted. The lesson I took from that was that my mom was that
sticking to her guns was apparently more important than me - because I
tried my best but it was too much.
Ask yourself what the more loving choice is: holding onto the iPad because
he didn't "earn it" or giving it to him because it will bring him a lot of
joy?
- Misa
PS - as a compromise, if Christmas is something you celebrate, it would
make an excellent gift - he earned part, you gifted the rest.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tracy Willis
It's very hard to move to unschooling, after years of "traditional" parenting. I am new to it too, and at times, I find myself torn between the old way I parented, and this new way. Learning to trust your child to become a responsible person without using limitation, bribes, punishments, etc. is tough. You are going to mess up sometimes. It's alright to ask for advice from veteran unschoolers. No one can become an expert at unschooling overnight. If you do mess up, apologize. Tell your kid where you were coming from, but make sure to let him know you trust him and you're proud of his effforts. I think you are on the right track to building a good relationship with him. It helps me to think of how each situation makes my kids feel. I put myself in their shoes. I try to remember how loved a gift can make them feel. I say yes to every request they make, if it's within my (wallet) power. It surprises me that they understand if they ask for something and I
don't have the money.
One more piece of advice, I find that there are unschoolers out there who are quick to cut a newbie down. I find there are unschoolers who will be very kind and supportive of your journey, and there are others who will belittle you for making a mistake. Listen to the postive people:)
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Suggestions on peacefully fixing a parental error.
-=-I'll end by saying that we didn't scold or belittle him when he didn't fulfill his agreement. He asked of he could still have the iPad and I told him he couldn't.-=-
Please don't delude or comfort yourself.
He felt belittled and punished.
You're not building a good relationship in any way, nor are you moving toward unschooling.
Are you using an iPad to train him? To shame him?
An iPad is a fantastic learning tool. Learning should be your primary focus. I hope by the time you read this, he's been playing the iPad for many hours and you've apologized profusely.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't have the money.
One more piece of advice, I find that there are unschoolers out there who are quick to cut a newbie down. I find there are unschoolers who will be very kind and supportive of your journey, and there are others who will belittle you for making a mistake. Listen to the postive people:)
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Suggestions on peacefully fixing a parental error.
-=-I'll end by saying that we didn't scold or belittle him when he didn't fulfill his agreement. He asked of he could still have the iPad and I told him he couldn't.-=-
Please don't delude or comfort yourself.
He felt belittled and punished.
You're not building a good relationship in any way, nor are you moving toward unschooling.
Are you using an iPad to train him? To shame him?
An iPad is a fantastic learning tool. Learning should be your primary focus. I hope by the time you read this, he's been playing the iPad for many hours and you've apologized profusely.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I would have wrapped the IPad and given him for Christmas ( if that is what you celebrate for the Holidays). -=-
I wouldn't make him wait another minute.
All the negativity that has come with that will be a part of that iPad's legacy forever. Cut your losses. Make it sweeter and happier sooner! You don't want him to think everytime he picks up the iPad "I was a bad boy," and "my mom was mean."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wouldn't make him wait another minute.
All the negativity that has come with that will be a part of that iPad's legacy forever. Cut your losses. Make it sweeter and happier sooner! You don't want him to think everytime he picks up the iPad "I was a bad boy," and "my mom was mean."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gwen Montoya
Another consideration is how often he helps when there is no reward.
I think older siblings, especially when there is a large age gap between the kids, often help out without any recognition offered.
Not that the iPad should be tied to anything. It is a fantastic device and will be great fun (but get a heavy duty case like an Otterbox...accidents happen).
Gwen
I think older siblings, especially when there is a large age gap between the kids, often help out without any recognition offered.
Not that the iPad should be tied to anything. It is a fantastic device and will be great fun (but get a heavy duty case like an Otterbox...accidents happen).
Gwen
On Dec 22, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Misa Knight <love2boardgame@...> wrote:
>
> Ask yourself what the more loving choice is: holding onto the iPad because
> he didn't "earn it" or giving it to him because it will bring him a lot of
> joy?
>
> - Misa
>
Vicki Dennis
I'm with Sandra. I hope he has already been playing it for hours and
hours.
Admit you made a mistake. Even if you have not totally internalized that
you did. Maybe it's hard to let lose of feeling you need to "help him
live up to commitments" but think hard about whether you are willing to
pay the price for that.......damaging your relationship with your son. It
was your mistake, not his. There is a reason that minors are not able to
enter into binding contracts.
Just switching it to a Christmas gift is not acknowledging that the mistake
was yours. Especially if that means "shorting" another planned Christmas
gift.
vicki
hours.
Admit you made a mistake. Even if you have not totally internalized that
you did. Maybe it's hard to let lose of feeling you need to "help him
live up to commitments" but think hard about whether you are willing to
pay the price for that.......damaging your relationship with your son. It
was your mistake, not his. There is a reason that minors are not able to
enter into binding contracts.
Just switching it to a Christmas gift is not acknowledging that the mistake
was yours. Especially if that means "shorting" another planned Christmas
gift.
vicki
On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> -=-I would have wrapped the IPad and given him for Christmas ( if that is
> what you celebrate for the Holidays). -=-
>
> I wouldn't make him wait another minute.
>
> All the negativity that has come with that will be a part of that iPad's
> legacy forever. Cut your losses. Make it sweeter and happier sooner! You
> don't want him to think everytime he picks up the iPad "I was a bad boy,"
> and "my mom was mean."
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex Polikowsky
Yes yes to what Sandra and Vicki wrote about not waiting for Christmas .
What I had in mind when I wrote that is that when the IPad arrived I would had just wrapped and given as a present and not used as a lesson for him to try to teach him to stick to an agreement that was over his abilities .
Yes don't wait :) I Stand corrected !
I hope you called him up by now and said;
"Son I thought about it and I apologize . I was wrong.
Thank you for helping out with you brother that whole week. We appreciated.
The iPad is yours . "
Alex
Sent from my iPhone
What I had in mind when I wrote that is that when the IPad arrived I would had just wrapped and given as a present and not used as a lesson for him to try to teach him to stick to an agreement that was over his abilities .
Yes don't wait :) I Stand corrected !
I hope you called him up by now and said;
"Son I thought about it and I apologize . I was wrong.
Thank you for helping out with you brother that whole week. We appreciated.
The iPad is yours . "
Alex
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 22, 2012, at 4:16 PM, Vicki Dennis <vicki@...> wrote:
> I'm with Sandra. I hope he has already been playing it for hours and
> hours.
> Admit you made a mistake. Even if you have not totally internalized that
> you did. Maybe it's hard to let lose of feeling you need to "help him
> live up to commitments" but think hard about whether you are willing to
> pay the price for that.......damaging your relationship with your son. It
> was your mistake, not his. There is a reason that minors are not able to
> enter into binding contracts.
>
> Just switching it to a Christmas gift is not acknowledging that the mistake
> was yours. Especially if that means "shorting" another planned Christmas
> gift.
>
>
> vicki
>
> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> -=-I would have wrapped the IPad and given him for Christmas ( if that is
>> what you celebrate for the Holidays). -=-
>>
>> I wouldn't make him wait another minute.
>>
>> All the negativity that has come with that will be a part of that iPad's
>> legacy forever. Cut your losses. Make it sweeter and happier sooner! You
>> don't want him to think everytime he picks up the iPad "I was a bad boy,"
>> and "my mom was mean."
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Mrs Jones
Hi.
I'm new to the list, but would like to comment on this, hope that's ok.
==I am not sure what to say or do in order to have him feel better without giving him something he didn't earn.==
It's the concept of *earning* that I'm thinking of. It's a very possible roadblock in an unschooling family, I think. Not only because the child can be too young for a task and not realize it, but also because rewards can create a line of "what's in it for me" and "he/she owes me" - thinking, instead of just naturally helping out eachother because it's a nice thing to do and it works both ways. Rewards often acts as manipulators, even when we don't intend them to.
To avoid situations like this in the future, I'd work hard on eliminating the concept of rewarding from the family. Children will have plenty of occasions to experience *earning* things outside the house. You can keep the aquisition of things separate from helping. Just like not tying chores to allowances ;-)
Maria
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm new to the list, but would like to comment on this, hope that's ok.
==I am not sure what to say or do in order to have him feel better without giving him something he didn't earn.==
It's the concept of *earning* that I'm thinking of. It's a very possible roadblock in an unschooling family, I think. Not only because the child can be too young for a task and not realize it, but also because rewards can create a line of "what's in it for me" and "he/she owes me" - thinking, instead of just naturally helping out eachother because it's a nice thing to do and it works both ways. Rewards often acts as manipulators, even when we don't intend them to.
To avoid situations like this in the future, I'd work hard on eliminating the concept of rewarding from the family. Children will have plenty of occasions to experience *earning* things outside the house. You can keep the aquisition of things separate from helping. Just like not tying chores to allowances ;-)
Maria
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-One more piece of advice, I find that there are unschoolers out there who are quick to cut a newbie down. I find there are unschoolers who will be very kind and supportive of your journey, and there are others who will belittle you for making a mistake. Listen to the postive people:)-=-
I created this discussion and have been here for eleven years. I started unschooling 22 years ago and have been helping other unschoolers since before there were internet discussions.
The advice above is by someone who joined the list eleven days ago.
There is no advantage for me to "cut a newbie down."
And there is a HUGE disadvantage for the children of new unschoolers if any experienced unschooler "supports" the mother on her journey and says "good job!" or "I trust you" to a mom who is dragging her feet and is undecided and is taking bad advice.
Some of "the positive people" write things like these: http://sandradodd.com/support
(Some of the tea-related things I made up. I cut and pasted the "support.")
-=-It's very hard to move to unschooling, after years of "traditional" parenting-=-
It's impossible to do so if a person is unwilling to consider that they are doing the very things that will prevent unschooling from working. When a mom cares more about "her journey" than she does about her child, the child is taking a back seat to the mother's desire for positive strokes.
http://sandradodd.com/doit
For anyone who is new to unschooling, here are some things you might want to subscribe to:
Just Add Light and Stir
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
Daily inspirational mailing, with a link usually, and image. There have been 838 of them so far.
Unschooling Site News
http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
Occasional; there have been 350 over many years. Each has at least three links.
Pam Laricchia's e-mail intro "Exploring Unschooling" (new a few months ago, and excellent):
http://livingjoyfully.ca/newsletter/
There are places where people are "nice" to new unschoolers.
There's not a place where the advice is better than here.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I created this discussion and have been here for eleven years. I started unschooling 22 years ago and have been helping other unschoolers since before there were internet discussions.
The advice above is by someone who joined the list eleven days ago.
There is no advantage for me to "cut a newbie down."
And there is a HUGE disadvantage for the children of new unschoolers if any experienced unschooler "supports" the mother on her journey and says "good job!" or "I trust you" to a mom who is dragging her feet and is undecided and is taking bad advice.
Some of "the positive people" write things like these: http://sandradodd.com/support
(Some of the tea-related things I made up. I cut and pasted the "support.")
-=-It's very hard to move to unschooling, after years of "traditional" parenting-=-
It's impossible to do so if a person is unwilling to consider that they are doing the very things that will prevent unschooling from working. When a mom cares more about "her journey" than she does about her child, the child is taking a back seat to the mother's desire for positive strokes.
http://sandradodd.com/doit
For anyone who is new to unschooling, here are some things you might want to subscribe to:
Just Add Light and Stir
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
Daily inspirational mailing, with a link usually, and image. There have been 838 of them so far.
Unschooling Site News
http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
Occasional; there have been 350 over many years. Each has at least three links.
Pam Laricchia's e-mail intro "Exploring Unschooling" (new a few months ago, and excellent):
http://livingjoyfully.ca/newsletter/
There are places where people are "nice" to new unschoolers.
There's not a place where the advice is better than here.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gocnagai
Thank you for everyone's input, harsh or not. Unschooling is a completely different lifestyle change for us and a much bigger concept than I could ever have managed to understand when I first came across Sandra's blog while looking for ways to teach a child that didn't want to be taught. I've read her book, am starting on another, and I seek answers each day because I feel right with unschooling and its been a long road with a bipolar child to find something that feels right. I'm still fumbling along the way.
I did give him the iPad, apologized, explained where we went wrong and thanked him for being a great big brother and helper. He's much happier and has spent the entire day playing and downloading apps. It took a bit for my husband to understand, however, because he felt he hadn't earned it. I sent him all of your responses as they came in and discussed it back and forth and back and forth. He still struggles with the unschooling concept because doesn't think the kids will learn responsibility. He's coming around though as he sees how little we struggle with the kids now.
Happy holidays to you and yours.
I did give him the iPad, apologized, explained where we went wrong and thanked him for being a great big brother and helper. He's much happier and has spent the entire day playing and downloading apps. It took a bit for my husband to understand, however, because he felt he hadn't earned it. I sent him all of your responses as they came in and discussed it back and forth and back and forth. He still struggles with the unschooling concept because doesn't think the kids will learn responsibility. He's coming around though as he sees how little we struggle with the kids now.
Happy holidays to you and yours.
--- In [email protected], "gocnagai" <gocnagai@...> wrote:
>
> Long story short:
> We messed up and I'm not sure how to fix it. We offered our 12 year old an iPad in exchange for helping to watch his 4 year old brother for 3 weeks while we worked a Christmas tree lot. He lasted 1 week before quitting and not helping out at all the final 2 weeks. He did great the first week and it takes 2 weeks for Apple to ship the iPad so I ordered it. It came today and he's upset that he doesn't get it, even though we talked about it weeks ago after he quit. He was upset and crying and wouldn't talk about it.
> I am not sure what to say or do in order to have him feel better without giving him something he didn't earn. I know it was a crappy deal to make and we should never have done it. We are new to unschooling and at times revert to the way we did things in the past.
> I'll end by saying that we didn't scold or belittle him when he didn't fulfill his agreement. He asked of he could still have the iPad and I told him he couldn't. I was a little surprised when he burst into hysterics tonight, but I guess the site of it made him feel like a failure and that bothers me.
> P.S. I read all the new member guidelines before posting. :)
>
gocnagai
I've followed Sandra's blog and I've read The Big Book of Unschooling. My husband is currently reading it. I knew when I posted that I would most likely be given blunt answers and wouldn't be coddled. I want this for us and my children and I'll make it work. I know I made a great mistake and certainly won't be repeating it.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-One more piece of advice, I find that there are unschoolers out there who are quick to cut a newbie down. I find there are unschoolers who will be very kind and supportive of your journey, and there are others who will belittle you for making a mistake. Listen to the postive people:)-=-
>
> I created this discussion and have been here for eleven years. I started unschooling 22 years ago and have been helping other unschoolers since before there were internet discussions.
>
> The advice above is by someone who joined the list eleven days ago.
>
> There is no advantage for me to "cut a newbie down."
> And there is a HUGE disadvantage for the children of new unschoolers if any experienced unschooler "supports" the mother on her journey and says "good job!" or "I trust you" to a mom who is dragging her feet and is undecided and is taking bad advice.
>
> Some of "the positive people" write things like these: http://sandradodd.com/support
> (Some of the tea-related things I made up. I cut and pasted the "support.")
>
> -=-It's very hard to move to unschooling, after years of "traditional" parenting-=-
>
> It's impossible to do so if a person is unwilling to consider that they are doing the very things that will prevent unschooling from working. When a mom cares more about "her journey" than she does about her child, the child is taking a back seat to the mother's desire for positive strokes.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/doit
>
> For anyone who is new to unschooling, here are some things you might want to subscribe to:
>
> Just Add Light and Stir
> http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
> Daily inspirational mailing, with a link usually, and image. There have been 838 of them so far.
>
> Unschooling Site News
> http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
> Occasional; there have been 350 over many years. Each has at least three links.
>
> Pam Laricchia's e-mail intro "Exploring Unschooling" (new a few months ago, and excellent):
> http://livingjoyfully.ca/newsletter/
>
> There are places where people are "nice" to new unschoolers.
> There's not a place where the advice is better than here.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- He still struggles with the unschooling concept because doesn't think the kids will learn responsibility. -=-
My kids never went to school, weren't punished, and are extremely responsible.
Right at this moment, Holly is talking to me about how next Friday she'll need to leave the symposium during Jill's talk so she can feed the dogs where she's housesitting, and then get to work by 6:00. A lot of the people I grew up with would take off work for less excuse than she's going to miss two activities that were her idea.
Marty has been asleep since 6:30 p.m. because he's been sick this week, and works at 4:00 a.m. He feels good when he wakes up each day, but then needs to sleep early.
They've had jobs since they were mid-teens. My oldest has worked for nearly 14 years straight; he's 26 years old.
http://sandradodd.com/teen/jobs
http://sandradodd.com/teen/people
There's a symposium in Albuquerque at which lots of young adult unschoolers will be, starting in a few days. There will be another, without so many young adults, in May in Minneapolis.
http://speakingsandradodd.blogspot.com
It might help for him to meet some older unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My kids never went to school, weren't punished, and are extremely responsible.
Right at this moment, Holly is talking to me about how next Friday she'll need to leave the symposium during Jill's talk so she can feed the dogs where she's housesitting, and then get to work by 6:00. A lot of the people I grew up with would take off work for less excuse than she's going to miss two activities that were her idea.
Marty has been asleep since 6:30 p.m. because he's been sick this week, and works at 4:00 a.m. He feels good when he wakes up each day, but then needs to sleep early.
They've had jobs since they were mid-teens. My oldest has worked for nearly 14 years straight; he's 26 years old.
http://sandradodd.com/teen/jobs
http://sandradodd.com/teen/people
There's a symposium in Albuquerque at which lots of young adult unschoolers will be, starting in a few days. There will be another, without so many young adults, in May in Minneapolis.
http://speakingsandradodd.blogspot.com
It might help for him to meet some older unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
> -=-I would have wrapped the IPad and given him for Christmas ( if that is what you celebrate for the Holidays). -=-Absolutely. He did a lot as a 12 year old taking care of a 4 year old for an entire week. It's difficult for me to take care of my children most hours of the day and I'm 42 years old.
>
> I wouldn't make him wait another minute.
>
> All the negativity that has come with that will be a part of that iPad's legacy forever. Cut your losses. Make it sweeter and happier sooner! You don't want him to think everytime he picks up the iPad "I was a bad boy," and "my mom was mean."==
Give him the iPad with love and tell him that you know he did what he could and it was enough.
Alysia
Pam Sorooshian
Learning responsibility ... how does that happen?
Mostly, I think it happens by modeling. When "I" am responsible in how I
behave directly with my children, that's probably the most powerful
influence. When I am responsible in front of my kids in how I behave toward
others - that's powerful too.
It is SO hard for adults to "get" what is really going on in a kid's head.
When an adult punishes a child by withholding something they want, is the
child thinking, "I deserved not to get that thing. I behaved irresponsibly.
I should behave more responsibly in the future." No - the child is off
furiously thinking, "They are SO unfair. They don't understand me. They
don't even care WHY I did what i did. I HATE them. They said I could have
it and now they're breaking their promise. If they think THAT was
irresponsible, I'll show them really irresponsible. I'll run away - that'll
show them." Or, maybe, "I'm so worthless. I can't do anything right even
when it is in my own interest. I'm a big loser. My parents don't think much
of me. Its not even worth trying anymore."
Not exactly the ideas you probably want to be creating in your child's mind.
What about: "My parents are so generous. I love them." "My parents are
understanding and gentle. I should try to be more like them." "My parents
understand me that I'm trying." "My parents think I'm a good person and I
will try to live up to that."
What actions are your part are most likely to put the second set of ideas
in your child's head?
-pam
Mostly, I think it happens by modeling. When "I" am responsible in how I
behave directly with my children, that's probably the most powerful
influence. When I am responsible in front of my kids in how I behave toward
others - that's powerful too.
It is SO hard for adults to "get" what is really going on in a kid's head.
When an adult punishes a child by withholding something they want, is the
child thinking, "I deserved not to get that thing. I behaved irresponsibly.
I should behave more responsibly in the future." No - the child is off
furiously thinking, "They are SO unfair. They don't understand me. They
don't even care WHY I did what i did. I HATE them. They said I could have
it and now they're breaking their promise. If they think THAT was
irresponsible, I'll show them really irresponsible. I'll run away - that'll
show them." Or, maybe, "I'm so worthless. I can't do anything right even
when it is in my own interest. I'm a big loser. My parents don't think much
of me. Its not even worth trying anymore."
Not exactly the ideas you probably want to be creating in your child's mind.
What about: "My parents are so generous. I love them." "My parents are
understanding and gentle. I should try to be more like them." "My parents
understand me that I'm trying." "My parents think I'm a good person and I
will try to live up to that."
What actions are your part are most likely to put the second set of ideas
in your child's head?
-pam
On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 7:16 PM, gocnagai <gocnagai@...> wrote:
> He still struggles with the unschooling concept because doesn't think the
> kids will learn responsibility. He's coming around though as he sees how
> little we struggle with the kids now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gocnagai
Alexandria told me about the Minneapolis conference and I'm hoping we can make it. We travel full time in the RV so it depends on where we end up in the spring.
I'm hoping my husband will come around more after he finishes your book. He doesn't have a problem with no schoolwork, he has problems with the kids having so many choices. He hasn't relented on the kids' bedtimes and mentions "responsibility" quite a bit. He has let go of food struggles, video games, and other matters so we are moving along. I find it amusing since I have always been the uptight control freak and I've key go much easier than him.
I'm hoping my husband will come around more after he finishes your book. He doesn't have a problem with no schoolwork, he has problems with the kids having so many choices. He hasn't relented on the kids' bedtimes and mentions "responsibility" quite a bit. He has let go of food struggles, video games, and other matters so we are moving along. I find it amusing since I have always been the uptight control freak and I've key go much easier than him.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- He still struggles with the unschooling concept because doesn't think the kids will learn responsibility. -=-
>
> My kids never went to school, weren't punished, and are extremely responsible.
>
> Right at this moment, Holly is talking to me about how next Friday she'll need to leave the symposium during Jill's talk so she can feed the dogs where she's housesitting, and then get to work by 6:00. A lot of the people I grew up with would take off work for less excuse than she's going to miss two activities that were her idea.
>
> Marty has been asleep since 6:30 p.m. because he's been sick this week, and works at 4:00 a.m. He feels good when he wakes up each day, but then needs to sleep early.
>
> They've had jobs since they were mid-teens. My oldest has worked for nearly 14 years straight; he's 26 years old.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/teen/jobs
>
> http://sandradodd.com/teen/people
>
> There's a symposium in Albuquerque at which lots of young adult unschoolers will be, starting in a few days. There will be another, without so many young adults, in May in Minneapolis.
> http://speakingsandradodd.blogspot.com
> It might help for him to meet some older unschoolers.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm hoping my husband will come around more after he finishes your book. He doesn't have a problem with no schoolwork, he has problems with the kids having so many choices. -=-
Others here might be able to clarify or confirm, but I think my book is better for people who know they want to be unschoolers. For those who are wary of the ideas, maybe Pam Laricchia's book would be better. Maybe if your husband reads hers, he'll be more easily able to appreciate mine.
http://www.livingjoyfully.ca
She also has a series of introductory e-mails you and your husband might be able to go through as a couple. It takes a few weeks, at two per week. They're very soothing. You can get to both of those at the link above.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Others here might be able to clarify or confirm, but I think my book is better for people who know they want to be unschoolers. For those who are wary of the ideas, maybe Pam Laricchia's book would be better. Maybe if your husband reads hers, he'll be more easily able to appreciate mine.
http://www.livingjoyfully.ca
She also has a series of introductory e-mails you and your husband might be able to go through as a couple. It takes a few weeks, at two per week. They're very soothing. You can get to both of those at the link above.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 22, 2012, at 10:16 PM, gocnagai wrote:
But if responsibility is seen as what we've chosen to do to be the people we want to be, it's easier to see other pathways to it. When we can choose each time to do something, when we can decide what standards to maintain to be who we want to be, when we can decide whether we can continue to provide the standards we require of ourselves or if it's best passed onto someone else, it's easier to see how kids can grow into that naturally by having the ability to try things and decide if it's right for who they are today.
If children's choices are judged against adult standards the kids will often fail.
What we want isn't kids whose surface actions match their parents' conscience but people who make choices according to their own conscience. To help kids conscience evolve and grow, feed it through your treatment of them: *be* kind, respectful, patient, helpful, understanding, supportive, trusting. Harshness, anger, disappointment tend to grow those same attitudes in others.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> He still struggles with the unschooling concept becauseWhen responsibility is defined as doing what you're told or what you're supposed to do, it seems like the only way to get people to do that is to ride on them until that message controls their choices rather than their (*supposedly*) natural evil inclinations to be selfish.
> doesn't think the kids will learn responsibility.
But if responsibility is seen as what we've chosen to do to be the people we want to be, it's easier to see other pathways to it. When we can choose each time to do something, when we can decide what standards to maintain to be who we want to be, when we can decide whether we can continue to provide the standards we require of ourselves or if it's best passed onto someone else, it's easier to see how kids can grow into that naturally by having the ability to try things and decide if it's right for who they are today.
If children's choices are judged against adult standards the kids will often fail.
What we want isn't kids whose surface actions match their parents' conscience but people who make choices according to their own conscience. To help kids conscience evolve and grow, feed it through your treatment of them: *be* kind, respectful, patient, helpful, understanding, supportive, trusting. Harshness, anger, disappointment tend to grow those same attitudes in others.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<<<Alexandria told me about the Minneapolis conference and I'm hoping we can make it. We travel full time in the RV so it depends on where we end up in the spring. >>>>>>>>
That would be wonderful. I was hoping my husband can come up at least for a day. As a farmer he grew up with required chores and the farmer's working ethic talk. My kids have no required chores. My 6 year old loves it and will spend all day with dad from Spring till it gets too cold for her in the Fall. My son, 10 years old, will do it occasionally,sometimes he will get into it , sometimes he is busy doing other things. He has been splitting some wood for me just because.
When he does help out it is because he wants, or we really need him to help, and he does it willingly and does a great job. He does not cut corners or complain. He is a pretty cool kid. He is just very busy doing his own things in the computer.
'There is another local dad that I am not sure if he is going but the mom and the younger boys, 11 and 13, are going. They have met Sandra many years ago at a Conference in St Louis. The Dad had doubts and questions and the Conference, specially listening to Sandra , really got him on board. I think Keith made a big impression in that family too.
There is yet another very sweet dad of young girls in the State who is all for unschooling and he is a real nice guy. He would be a great dad to meet. I am hoping they will be there. They did come to a Unschooling Water Park get together I had years ago and I keep in touch with them all the time. They are super sweet and the girls are wonderful.
There is another dad who told me they want to come who;s kids are all into gaming and such . He seems like a great guy too. I met him in a local homeschooling event a couple months ago. I know his wife and they are unschoolers.
I know that for my husband it made a world of difference meeting dad's like David Waynforth and Ben Lovejoy in person. He also did love the Conference he went and he was there for just a day.
Here is some from David's wife
http://sandradodd.com/schuylerwaynforth
and from Ben
http://sandradodd.com/benlovejoy
Alex Polikowsky
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