Teens, their online worlds & parental responses, Self harm mentioned - sensitive
michelle_mcritchie
Hi All,
I've been on the list for a few weeks and have been reading lots, so far things have been going well as we move our family from unschooling into radical unschooling (we have 4 kids, 14 yr old girl, 12 yr old boy and 3 and 1 yr old girls).
Anyway my 14 yr old daughter is a gorgeous soul, we have quite an open relationship and (I thought) she tells me most things that go on for her. The last two weeks I have noticed she's been extra 'grumpy' and getting up very late in the day, but with our new approach I have been letting her go but just talking gently to her about her moods and how they affect others in the household. She has always been quite outspoken in her peer group about not giving into society's pressures about weight, very negative about the increase in the self harm act of 'cutting' (but supportive of friends who do it and even asked her dad how she can help as my husband works in youth mental health).
In the last day I found out she has a tumblr blog in which is full of pictures of very depressing stuff, photos of self harm (not herself), words of suicide, negative body image statements etc. Anyway the blog is worlds away from how I see her and how she travels in the world (and we are pretty connected parents and switched on as we both world in counselling type fields). I know she has struggled with friends, finding someone she can really relate to so my assumption (and I could be wrong) is that she's trying to connect with one of her good friends by trying to portray a similar life.
Anyway my main question is what to do with her 'online world', my old parenting style (before radical unschooling) would have been to tell her to delete her tumblr account and take control ... but I don't know if that's a good approach now. I definitely will talk to her about my feelings when I read it and ask her what she get's out of it and how it doesn't add up with what we see in real life but I am concerned that all the negativity is affecting her mood.
I know it's hard to comment when you don't have the full picture, not so much needing advice on the possible mental health issues (hubby and I feel confident in that area), but just not sure how to approach the tumblr blog with not taking over control etc.
Any thoughts?
Sorry for such a 'heavy' first message!
Michelle
I've been on the list for a few weeks and have been reading lots, so far things have been going well as we move our family from unschooling into radical unschooling (we have 4 kids, 14 yr old girl, 12 yr old boy and 3 and 1 yr old girls).
Anyway my 14 yr old daughter is a gorgeous soul, we have quite an open relationship and (I thought) she tells me most things that go on for her. The last two weeks I have noticed she's been extra 'grumpy' and getting up very late in the day, but with our new approach I have been letting her go but just talking gently to her about her moods and how they affect others in the household. She has always been quite outspoken in her peer group about not giving into society's pressures about weight, very negative about the increase in the self harm act of 'cutting' (but supportive of friends who do it and even asked her dad how she can help as my husband works in youth mental health).
In the last day I found out she has a tumblr blog in which is full of pictures of very depressing stuff, photos of self harm (not herself), words of suicide, negative body image statements etc. Anyway the blog is worlds away from how I see her and how she travels in the world (and we are pretty connected parents and switched on as we both world in counselling type fields). I know she has struggled with friends, finding someone she can really relate to so my assumption (and I could be wrong) is that she's trying to connect with one of her good friends by trying to portray a similar life.
Anyway my main question is what to do with her 'online world', my old parenting style (before radical unschooling) would have been to tell her to delete her tumblr account and take control ... but I don't know if that's a good approach now. I definitely will talk to her about my feelings when I read it and ask her what she get's out of it and how it doesn't add up with what we see in real life but I am concerned that all the negativity is affecting her mood.
I know it's hard to comment when you don't have the full picture, not so much needing advice on the possible mental health issues (hubby and I feel confident in that area), but just not sure how to approach the tumblr blog with not taking over control etc.
Any thoughts?
Sorry for such a 'heavy' first message!
Michelle
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I can't tell you if she really feels the way you are describing she writes on her blog.
My son has an alter ego online in Len Kagamine, a vocaloid.
He created a Youtube account on this name and he even has a girlfriend ( Rin Kagamine) and a host of friends from
the vocaloid world. They have this cyber life and friendship .
I have even tried to get his hair to look like Len ( minus changing the color).
I have called him Len and he loves it.
It does not change who he is. He just enjoys that.
I am not saying it is the same as your daughter.
As for you talking about it with her . Does she know you know about her blog?
was it a private or secret blog?
Will she feel that you are snooping on her?
I do not have a teen. My son is only 10 and I do not have experience with teens as a mother.
I do however have friends with teens . One very close friend with a daughter that is 15 and things are are not good over there.
My friend have made changes towards a better relationship.
She too. went from controlling to reading Sandra's book , reading Parent -Teen breakthrough, a relationship approach,
lurking on Sandra's facebook list and listening some ideas I passed on to her. She is not an unschooler but
she says she thinks things would be a lot worse is she stayed in the path she was and had not come across the ideas I learned
here in this group.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My son has an alter ego online in Len Kagamine, a vocaloid.
He created a Youtube account on this name and he even has a girlfriend ( Rin Kagamine) and a host of friends from
the vocaloid world. They have this cyber life and friendship .
I have even tried to get his hair to look like Len ( minus changing the color).
I have called him Len and he loves it.
It does not change who he is. He just enjoys that.
I am not saying it is the same as your daughter.
As for you talking about it with her . Does she know you know about her blog?
was it a private or secret blog?
Will she feel that you are snooping on her?
I do not have a teen. My son is only 10 and I do not have experience with teens as a mother.
I do however have friends with teens . One very close friend with a daughter that is 15 and things are are not good over there.
My friend have made changes towards a better relationship.
She too. went from controlling to reading Sandra's book , reading Parent -Teen breakthrough, a relationship approach,
lurking on Sandra's facebook list and listening some ideas I passed on to her. She is not an unschooler but
she says she thinks things would be a lot worse is she stayed in the path she was and had not come across the ideas I learned
here in this group.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I think the first thing I would say is "I'm worried about this" and ask for reassurance that she's safe and okay.
-=-I am concerned that all the negativity is affecting her mood.-=-
All that negativity IS her mood, isn't it?
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
Maybe you'll find something there that will help you think about it, or something you could share with her either directly or indirectly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-I am concerned that all the negativity is affecting her mood.-=-
All that negativity IS her mood, isn't it?
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
Maybe you'll find something there that will help you think about it, or something you could share with her either directly or indirectly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
michelle_mcritchie
Thanks Alex and Sandra ...
We had a chat tonight and I just gently asked her about when her mood has been more positive and what was in her life at the time (eg. friends, what websites she was spending time on, activities etc) and then the same for when she is feeling not so great about the world. She quickly mentioned tumblr being not a good thing for her and being a very negative space (well one of her tumblr accounts, she has another which is full of anime and manga stuff but that is positive for her). She then mentioned deleting her account (for the negative one) and all I said is "Well that is your decision, but if you feel it's not being helpful for your current state of mind then yes I agree it's probably a good decision".
She quickly got her laptop and sat next to me and deleted her account. We then had a chat for the next hour or more just about life in general and what she is struggling with (not having like minded friends and feeling like she is unsure of who she is). We talked about the struggles and asked her how we can support her better and build her trust so she comes to us when she is feeling down.
We've also discussed the cutting, suicide subjects on her blog with my hubby's help (he was amazing, so gentle and non judgemental), so we feel we are okay with what that's all about. My husband has also talked about spending some more one on one time with her and I will also make an effort to stay more connected with her instead of leaving her sometimes for hours without checking in (so hard to get the balance when at that age they do say they want time alone).
Anyway we feel this has been a huge opportunity for growth for all of us and a chance to show her a different approach instead of taking the decision making out of her hands and giving her the message that we don't trust her or that she's not capable of making wise decisions on her own.
Thanks so much for hearing me out,
Michelle
We had a chat tonight and I just gently asked her about when her mood has been more positive and what was in her life at the time (eg. friends, what websites she was spending time on, activities etc) and then the same for when she is feeling not so great about the world. She quickly mentioned tumblr being not a good thing for her and being a very negative space (well one of her tumblr accounts, she has another which is full of anime and manga stuff but that is positive for her). She then mentioned deleting her account (for the negative one) and all I said is "Well that is your decision, but if you feel it's not being helpful for your current state of mind then yes I agree it's probably a good decision".
She quickly got her laptop and sat next to me and deleted her account. We then had a chat for the next hour or more just about life in general and what she is struggling with (not having like minded friends and feeling like she is unsure of who she is). We talked about the struggles and asked her how we can support her better and build her trust so she comes to us when she is feeling down.
We've also discussed the cutting, suicide subjects on her blog with my hubby's help (he was amazing, so gentle and non judgemental), so we feel we are okay with what that's all about. My husband has also talked about spending some more one on one time with her and I will also make an effort to stay more connected with her instead of leaving her sometimes for hours without checking in (so hard to get the balance when at that age they do say they want time alone).
Anyway we feel this has been a huge opportunity for growth for all of us and a chance to show her a different approach instead of taking the decision making out of her hands and giving her the message that we don't trust her or that she's not capable of making wise decisions on her own.
Thanks so much for hearing me out,
Michelle
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> I think the first thing I would say is "I'm worried about this" and ask for reassurance that she's safe and okay.
>
> -=-I am concerned that all the negativity is affecting her mood.-=-
>
> All that negativity IS her mood, isn't it?
>
> http://sandradodd.com/negativity
>
> Maybe you'll find something there that will help you think about it, or something you could share with her either directly or indirectly.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Kelly Halldorson
I like what Sandra wrote, the simplicity of it.
My daughter is also 14. She sometimes dabbles in the "Emo" depressing
stuff. She'll post a picture of her looking depressed and/or she'll draw
pictures of girls crying and post them on Facebook. She has mentioned
getting a Tumblr herself though she hasn't yet.
Her Facebook posts are easy to "deal" with. We are friendly enough that I
can post a "Hey what's this about?" Right on her wall. But if I notice she
is particularly sensitive/grumpy or at a friend's house so I can't witness
what kind of mood she is in when she posts something I'll send her a
message. Or if she's sitting near me I'll say, "You OK?"
It's always just a starter though. If she's open to responding I listen. If
she is not I wait. I love her. And I observe. Then I try that simple
starter again if it seems needed.
Peace,
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My daughter is also 14. She sometimes dabbles in the "Emo" depressing
stuff. She'll post a picture of her looking depressed and/or she'll draw
pictures of girls crying and post them on Facebook. She has mentioned
getting a Tumblr herself though she hasn't yet.
Her Facebook posts are easy to "deal" with. We are friendly enough that I
can post a "Hey what's this about?" Right on her wall. But if I notice she
is particularly sensitive/grumpy or at a friend's house so I can't witness
what kind of mood she is in when she posts something I'll send her a
message. Or if she's sitting near me I'll say, "You OK?"
It's always just a starter though. If she's open to responding I listen. If
she is not I wait. I love her. And I observe. Then I try that simple
starter again if it seems needed.
Peace,
Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
riasplace3
--- In [email protected], "michelle_mcritchie" <karlskeys@...> wrote:
You weren't specific about the blog - was it something she shared with you, or publically, or is it a private blog?
Ria
>For my girls (16 and 15) the best thing I've found to do is to bite my tongue. :) It's SO difficult sometimes, but I might ask, just a simple query, then I drop it and don't bring it up again.
> but just not sure how to approach the tumblr blog with not taking over control etc.
You weren't specific about the blog - was it something she shared with you, or publically, or is it a private blog?
Ria
michelle_mcritchie
Ria,
The tumblr blog is tricky, not sure if you know about tumblr but it;s kind of like a combination of facebook/twitter/pinterest and a blog, it's not 'private' as such that it's on a public page and anyone can 'follow her' and see what she is posting. We've always had an open policy to internet stuff eg. we have her password to email, were friends on facebook (when she had it - she decided to delete it ages ago etc) - this was our old approach and I am now reconsidering our approach to these things. We do have a private policy with everything else eg. if they have diaries or things they have that they don't want us to look at that's fine, but if it's on the internet and public then it's open to everyone. Anyway tumblr is new for her and she was telling me lots about it, sitting next to me on the couch and sharing some funny stuff on there BUT when I asked to look at it she gave me an over the top reaction of "No Mum please don't ever join up and please don't go looking for me as you won't find me".
2 days ago we had a big incident here with a boy who visited and my son walking in on her kissing this boy (they are not in any relationship and the boy is 17 yrs), so that bought up heaps of issues and was a HUGE challenge to my new parenting approach of respect, unconditional love, trust etc. My first reaction wasn't great but I quickly asked for a 'rewrite' and then also asked her to give me some time to process it (my husband was away and usually this is the way I process stuff). That night I encouraged her to stay off technology (after calling my hubby for advice) and she gave me her laptop and itouch. I had a look at her laptop (again we have an open policy which I have not officially changed although I am still unsure about this now and think I need to think this policy through - but no firm ideas now) and I clicked on her tumblr and read it. I knew she had asked me not to but at this point I was so worried about her that I just went with my old instincts. I didn't say anything to her the next day but I noticed the information I knew about the page made me more angry at her and disconnected us even more as I felt like she was a stranger.
It was only last night when we sat down and chatted to her that I told her I read her tumblr. My husband was great and asked her how that made her feel and if she felt I had betrayed her trust by looking at it. She said she didn't (I think she thought since it was on her laptop I hadn't actually gone looking for it and she didn't log out so it was there to find - although not sure I agree with that as I still feel guilt for looking - ahhhh no idea).
So anyway that's how it happened with looking at her tumblr.
Michelle
The tumblr blog is tricky, not sure if you know about tumblr but it;s kind of like a combination of facebook/twitter/pinterest and a blog, it's not 'private' as such that it's on a public page and anyone can 'follow her' and see what she is posting. We've always had an open policy to internet stuff eg. we have her password to email, were friends on facebook (when she had it - she decided to delete it ages ago etc) - this was our old approach and I am now reconsidering our approach to these things. We do have a private policy with everything else eg. if they have diaries or things they have that they don't want us to look at that's fine, but if it's on the internet and public then it's open to everyone. Anyway tumblr is new for her and she was telling me lots about it, sitting next to me on the couch and sharing some funny stuff on there BUT when I asked to look at it she gave me an over the top reaction of "No Mum please don't ever join up and please don't go looking for me as you won't find me".
2 days ago we had a big incident here with a boy who visited and my son walking in on her kissing this boy (they are not in any relationship and the boy is 17 yrs), so that bought up heaps of issues and was a HUGE challenge to my new parenting approach of respect, unconditional love, trust etc. My first reaction wasn't great but I quickly asked for a 'rewrite' and then also asked her to give me some time to process it (my husband was away and usually this is the way I process stuff). That night I encouraged her to stay off technology (after calling my hubby for advice) and she gave me her laptop and itouch. I had a look at her laptop (again we have an open policy which I have not officially changed although I am still unsure about this now and think I need to think this policy through - but no firm ideas now) and I clicked on her tumblr and read it. I knew she had asked me not to but at this point I was so worried about her that I just went with my old instincts. I didn't say anything to her the next day but I noticed the information I knew about the page made me more angry at her and disconnected us even more as I felt like she was a stranger.
It was only last night when we sat down and chatted to her that I told her I read her tumblr. My husband was great and asked her how that made her feel and if she felt I had betrayed her trust by looking at it. She said she didn't (I think she thought since it was on her laptop I hadn't actually gone looking for it and she didn't log out so it was there to find - although not sure I agree with that as I still feel guilt for looking - ahhhh no idea).
So anyway that's how it happened with looking at her tumblr.
Michelle
--- In [email protected], "riasplace3" <riasplace3@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "michelle_mcritchie" <karlskeys@> wrote:
> >
> > but just not sure how to approach the tumblr blog with not taking over control etc.
>
>
> For my girls (16 and 15) the best thing I've found to do is to bite my tongue. :) It's SO difficult sometimes, but I might ask, just a simple query, then I drop it and don't bring it up again.
>
> You weren't specific about the blog - was it something she shared with you, or publically, or is it a private blog?
>
> Ria
>
michelle_mcritchie
Yes Kelly, it's all very emo, I would love to know how you handle the internet in general as per my last post about how we approach the internet ....
Michelle
Michelle
--- In [email protected], Kelly Halldorson <unschoolbus42@...> wrote:
>
> I like what Sandra wrote, the simplicity of it.
>
> My daughter is also 14. She sometimes dabbles in the "Emo" depressing
> stuff. She'll post a picture of her looking depressed and/or she'll draw
> pictures of girls crying and post them on Facebook. She has mentioned
> getting a Tumblr herself though she hasn't yet.
>
> Her Facebook posts are easy to "deal" with. We are friendly enough that I
> can post a "Hey what's this about?" Right on her wall. But if I notice she
> is particularly sensitive/grumpy or at a friend's house so I can't witness
> what kind of mood she is in when she posts something I'll send her a
> message. Or if she's sitting near me I'll say, "You OK?"
>
> It's always just a starter though. If she's open to responding I listen. If
> she is not I wait. I love her. And I observe. Then I try that simple
> starter again if it seems needed.
>
> Peace,
> Kelly
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 15, 2012, at 8:42 PM, michelle_mcritchie wrote:
What's the purpose of the policy that asking permission wouldn't also accomplish? Think about that.
A policy suggests the kids would say no to something you need. A policy suggests there are things you want to see that the kids would keep hidden from you. A policy suggests that you're not connected enough to know what's going on with your kids so you'd need to check up on them when it's convenient for you.
If none of that's true, then why a policy?
If it is true, then there are things broken in the relationship that need fixed.
When they're young kids, they're likely to be fine with you knowing the passwords. They likely feel you're another piece of them and *expect* you to know what's going on. As they get older, they will feel more and more like separate people and want to be treated as such.
If your kids were having an intense conversation in a public place would that mean it's okay for you to sneak up on them and listen in? Would you do that to a friend? Or would it be polite to interrupt so they know you're there?
It's good for kids to be aware that posting in a public place means *anyone* can see, but it's polite for parents to ask as they're getting older. They're exploring being people separate from their parents. An important part is being able to make decisions without parents hovering.
Parents should be connected enough that they don't need passwords and reading things the kids haven't openly shared. If that's not true, then the connection needs strengthened, not the ability to see into the child's life when the child doesn't realize it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> We've always had an open policy to internet stuff eg. we have her password to emailRather than a policy, it's more relationship building to ask.
What's the purpose of the policy that asking permission wouldn't also accomplish? Think about that.
A policy suggests the kids would say no to something you need. A policy suggests there are things you want to see that the kids would keep hidden from you. A policy suggests that you're not connected enough to know what's going on with your kids so you'd need to check up on them when it's convenient for you.
If none of that's true, then why a policy?
If it is true, then there are things broken in the relationship that need fixed.
When they're young kids, they're likely to be fine with you knowing the passwords. They likely feel you're another piece of them and *expect* you to know what's going on. As they get older, they will feel more and more like separate people and want to be treated as such.
If your kids were having an intense conversation in a public place would that mean it's okay for you to sneak up on them and listen in? Would you do that to a friend? Or would it be polite to interrupt so they know you're there?
It's good for kids to be aware that posting in a public place means *anyone* can see, but it's polite for parents to ask as they're getting older. They're exploring being people separate from their parents. An important part is being able to make decisions without parents hovering.
Parents should be connected enough that they don't need passwords and reading things the kids haven't openly shared. If that's not true, then the connection needs strengthened, not the ability to see into the child's life when the child doesn't realize it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***2 days ago we had a big incident here with a boy who visited and my son walking in on her kissing this boy (they are not in any relationship and the boy is 17 yrs) ***
My first thought is that you way over reacted to your daughter kissing. Kissing isn't a big incident, more of a cool milestone of sweetness and entering into the teen age in a very normal way. If you are concerned about age differences, address that directly to both of them. I think you said your daughter is 14. I had my first kiss at that age. I also have known many kids who were sexually active at that age, even when I was that age.
As far as open door policies on internet or anything else, if there is a need for privacy, the need doesn't go away. Your daughter found a way to keep you out of the loop, circumventing that policy in a sneaky way. Why set yourself up for that? If she wants to share with you, she will do so willingly. If she doesn't she won't and if you force it, you've lost the totally awesomeness of her openly sharing with you. It truly does happen but you really can't force it.
I would not have read her tumblr if she had requested that you not. If she is hiding things from you, then you need to work on making your relationship more open. If you want an open door policy, it should mean YOUR door is always open not hers. I highly recommend the book Parent/Teen Breakthrough, The Relationship Approach!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My first thought is that you way over reacted to your daughter kissing. Kissing isn't a big incident, more of a cool milestone of sweetness and entering into the teen age in a very normal way. If you are concerned about age differences, address that directly to both of them. I think you said your daughter is 14. I had my first kiss at that age. I also have known many kids who were sexually active at that age, even when I was that age.
As far as open door policies on internet or anything else, if there is a need for privacy, the need doesn't go away. Your daughter found a way to keep you out of the loop, circumventing that policy in a sneaky way. Why set yourself up for that? If she wants to share with you, she will do so willingly. If she doesn't she won't and if you force it, you've lost the totally awesomeness of her openly sharing with you. It truly does happen but you really can't force it.
I would not have read her tumblr if she had requested that you not. If she is hiding things from you, then you need to work on making your relationship more open. If you want an open door policy, it should mean YOUR door is always open not hers. I highly recommend the book Parent/Teen Breakthrough, The Relationship Approach!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***it's all very emo, I would love to know how you handle the internet in general as per my last post about how we approach the internet ....***
First, don't discount "emo" simply because you don't understand it or see it as something big and scary. It has its place in life and while I don't entirely get the draw to it, I see interesting things in it.
If that is what your daughter is interested in and drawn to, it might be more useful to openly find out why she is interested in it. What does she see in it, not what you think she sees in it, but what she actually sees in it?
When my own daughter explored it, it had more to do with anime, manga, and horror movies, combined with fashion and art, than it did with any kind of attitude. She LIKES blood and gore and dark and scary. For a couple of years she felt entirely out of place liking these things while other kids her age liked Disney. The internet helped enormously for her to find others who liked similar things. It became easier and easier for her to spot the people like her, over the people who were super depressed and suicidal, or the people who wanted that kind of attention.
She did manage to find a hotbed of like minded others working in haunted house productions. In and among all the people she's met and people she's known, she has been very careful about who she allows into her inner circle and who she keeps at bay. She knows a lot of really messed up young people. Some of them cut themselves. Cutting is pretty addictive. One time my daughter was very depressed over some really yucky circumstances beyond our control and she tried cutting. That was all it took for her to realize that self harm hurt worse than feeling the depression and working hard to get out of it. It wasn't the physical pain of cutting that hurt, it was the emotional pain of harming herself that hurt. There is no way in the world I could have explained that to her better than she experienced it for herself. It was a truly pivotal moment for her, one that catapulted her into finding ways to deal with mood swings and life blows and
helping others do the same, in healthy and proactive ways.
Controlling the internet usage might cause the very things you hope to avoid, sneaky behavior and hiding emotional health from the very people that should be her safety net. If something made me uncomfortable it helped for me to NOT over react. It helped for me to first find what made me uncomfortable about the situation, then when I was clear, ask questions of my daughter to gain her perspective. 95% of the time, what I was uncomfortable about wasn't even at play or at the heart of what my daughter was experiencing. If I had gone first with my assumptions and reacting to those things, I likely would have come across as some crazy nutter to my daughter.
I absolutely NEVER ever ever ever intruded on her privacy if she requested it. When I cleaned her room for her, I never read notes or computer messages of any kind, EVER. Since she knew that and trusted me, she shared most of everything with me, sometimes more than I cared to know! It is still that way and I'm very glad that she can have privacy when she wants it and needs it. Privacy is so important!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
First, don't discount "emo" simply because you don't understand it or see it as something big and scary. It has its place in life and while I don't entirely get the draw to it, I see interesting things in it.
If that is what your daughter is interested in and drawn to, it might be more useful to openly find out why she is interested in it. What does she see in it, not what you think she sees in it, but what she actually sees in it?
When my own daughter explored it, it had more to do with anime, manga, and horror movies, combined with fashion and art, than it did with any kind of attitude. She LIKES blood and gore and dark and scary. For a couple of years she felt entirely out of place liking these things while other kids her age liked Disney. The internet helped enormously for her to find others who liked similar things. It became easier and easier for her to spot the people like her, over the people who were super depressed and suicidal, or the people who wanted that kind of attention.
She did manage to find a hotbed of like minded others working in haunted house productions. In and among all the people she's met and people she's known, she has been very careful about who she allows into her inner circle and who she keeps at bay. She knows a lot of really messed up young people. Some of them cut themselves. Cutting is pretty addictive. One time my daughter was very depressed over some really yucky circumstances beyond our control and she tried cutting. That was all it took for her to realize that self harm hurt worse than feeling the depression and working hard to get out of it. It wasn't the physical pain of cutting that hurt, it was the emotional pain of harming herself that hurt. There is no way in the world I could have explained that to her better than she experienced it for herself. It was a truly pivotal moment for her, one that catapulted her into finding ways to deal with mood swings and life blows and
helping others do the same, in healthy and proactive ways.
Controlling the internet usage might cause the very things you hope to avoid, sneaky behavior and hiding emotional health from the very people that should be her safety net. If something made me uncomfortable it helped for me to NOT over react. It helped for me to first find what made me uncomfortable about the situation, then when I was clear, ask questions of my daughter to gain her perspective. 95% of the time, what I was uncomfortable about wasn't even at play or at the heart of what my daughter was experiencing. If I had gone first with my assumptions and reacting to those things, I likely would have come across as some crazy nutter to my daughter.
I absolutely NEVER ever ever ever intruded on her privacy if she requested it. When I cleaned her room for her, I never read notes or computer messages of any kind, EVER. Since she knew that and trusted me, she shared most of everything with me, sometimes more than I cared to know! It is still that way and I'm very glad that she can have privacy when she wants it and needs it. Privacy is so important!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in4mkaren
Joyce, mind processing through a thought with me? I was thinking a "policy" was simply an understanding you arrive at before hand about how you're going to handle something in the future. Maybe that's too broad a definition? If it is a working definition, then a policy doesn't have to be at odds with relationship, right?
This doesn't have much connection to the particular policy in the previous conversation. I'm thinking about this because I'm currently editing and adding to a policy manual for a co-op my kids want to participate in this fall. A policy, discussed and agreed upon ahead of time, can be a good short-cut so a situation is not a brand new conversation in the future (and many of the co-op policies are to cover our legal butts). But even in a family, policies can serve the family and not rule the family. Is this a good way to look at it? Or are there still difficulties?
I wonder about these things because I like order, organization, structure, etc... but I also love the openness of unschooling and prioritizing relationships, so I'm trying to work out what it looks like to embrace both in the context of the family I've got.
Thanks!
Karen W.
This doesn't have much connection to the particular policy in the previous conversation. I'm thinking about this because I'm currently editing and adding to a policy manual for a co-op my kids want to participate in this fall. A policy, discussed and agreed upon ahead of time, can be a good short-cut so a situation is not a brand new conversation in the future (and many of the co-op policies are to cover our legal butts). But even in a family, policies can serve the family and not rule the family. Is this a good way to look at it? Or are there still difficulties?
I wonder about these things because I like order, organization, structure, etc... but I also love the openness of unschooling and prioritizing relationships, so I'm trying to work out what it looks like to embrace both in the context of the family I've got.
Thanks!
Karen W.
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jul 15, 2012, at 8:42 PM, michelle_mcritchie wrote:
>
> > We've always had an open policy to internet stuff eg. we have her password to email
>
> Rather than a policy, it's more relationship building to ask.
>
> What's the purpose of the policy that asking permission wouldn't also accomplish? Think about that.
>
> A policy suggests the kids would say no to something you need. A policy suggests there are things you want to see that the kids would keep hidden from you. A policy suggests that you're not connected enough to know what's going on with your kids so you'd need to check up on them when it's convenient for you.
>
> If none of that's true, then why a policy?
>
> If it is true, then there are things broken in the relationship that need fixed.
>
> When they're young kids, they're likely to be fine with you knowing the passwords. They likely feel you're another piece of them and *expect* you to know what's going on. As they get older, they will feel more and more like separate people and want to be treated as such.
>
> If your kids were having an intense conversation in a public place would that mean it's okay for you to sneak up on them and listen in? Would you do that to a friend? Or would it be polite to interrupt so they know you're there?
>
> It's good for kids to be aware that posting in a public place means *anyone* can see, but it's polite for parents to ask as they're getting older. They're exploring being people separate from their parents. An important part is being able to make decisions without parents hovering.
>
> Parents should be connected enough that they don't need passwords and reading things the kids haven't openly shared. If that's not true, then the connection needs strengthened, not the ability to see into the child's life when the child doesn't realize it.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
otherstar
>>>>This doesn't have much connection to the particular policy in the previous conversation. I'm thinking about this because I'm currently editing and adding to a policy manual for a co-op my kids want to participate in this fall. A policy, discussed and agreed upon ahead of time, can be a good short-cut so a situation is not a brand new conversation in the future (and many of the co-op policies are to cover our legal butts). But even in a family, policies can serve the family and not rule the family. Is this a good way to look at it? Or are there still difficulties?<<<<<I teach a class and the focus is on creating collection development policies for libraries. Policies have some flexibility but I do not find them very helpful in familiar relationships. The purpose of a policy is to establish how one should behave in certain situations. Policies set up expectations and expectations can get in the way. Here is a link on expectations: http://sandradodd.com/expectations
As you said, a policy is a short cut. In unschooling, I don’t think short cuts are helpful because they may lead one to miss small nuances that can potentially have a huge impact on how to handle situations as they arise. Policies are usually set up so people don’t have to think and that is the antithesis of being mindful.
Also, as you have stated, they are discussed and agreed upon ahead of time. Depending on the age of the child, the child may or may not be in a position where he/she truly understands what is being agreed upon. That is why kids under a certain age are not allowed to enter into legal contracts.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-But even in a family, policies can serve the family and not rule the family. Is this a good way to look at it? Or are there still difficulties?-=-
If you decide now what you will do in a situation a week from now, you're not going to be really deciding in the moment, based on the conditions and the situation, on the mood of the people, on the reasons for their needs, and on the idea that you might know more in a week than you know today.
http://sandradodd.com/moment
http://sandradodd.com/being
-=-I wonder about these things because I like order, organization, structure, etc... but I also love the openness of unschooling and prioritizing relationships, so I'm trying to work out what it looks like to embrace both in the context of the family I've got.-=-
If one harms the other, why try to embrace both equally?
You can like order, organization and structure without imposing it on other people.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you decide now what you will do in a situation a week from now, you're not going to be really deciding in the moment, based on the conditions and the situation, on the mood of the people, on the reasons for their needs, and on the idea that you might know more in a week than you know today.
http://sandradodd.com/moment
http://sandradodd.com/being
-=-I wonder about these things because I like order, organization, structure, etc... but I also love the openness of unschooling and prioritizing relationships, so I'm trying to work out what it looks like to embrace both in the context of the family I've got.-=-
If one harms the other, why try to embrace both equally?
You can like order, organization and structure without imposing it on other people.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
michelle_mcritchie
Hi Jenny,
I really didn't want to get into the 'kissing incident', there is heaps behind this and my reaction to it. I have been able to address it much better with my husband's help after he came home the next day and my daughter is feeling much better about it all. Yes on her side she was just being a curious 14 yr old, on the boy's side there is much more and he does not have much integrity (past issues here). Anyway it was more the internet side I was confused about, but this conversation has helped greatly and I know we have some changing to do with how we relate with our children and the internet.
Michelle
I really didn't want to get into the 'kissing incident', there is heaps behind this and my reaction to it. I have been able to address it much better with my husband's help after he came home the next day and my daughter is feeling much better about it all. Yes on her side she was just being a curious 14 yr old, on the boy's side there is much more and he does not have much integrity (past issues here). Anyway it was more the internet side I was confused about, but this conversation has helped greatly and I know we have some changing to do with how we relate with our children and the internet.
Michelle
--- In [email protected], Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> ***2 days ago we had a big incident here with a boy who visited and my son walking in on her kissing this boy (they are not in any relationship and the boy is 17 yrs) ***
>
>
> My first thought is that you way over reacted to your daughter kissing. Kissing isn't a big incident, more of a cool milestone of sweetness and entering into the teen age in a very normal way. If you are concerned about age differences, address that directly to both of them. I think you said your daughter is 14. I had my first kiss at that age. I also have known many kids who were sexually active at that age, even when I was that age.
>
> As far as open door policies on internet or anything else, if there is a need for privacy, the need doesn't go away. Your daughter found a way to keep you out of the loop, circumventing that policy in a sneaky way. Why set yourself up for that? If she wants to share with you, she will do so willingly. If she doesn't she won't and if you force it, you've lost the totally awesomeness of her openly sharing with you. It truly does happen but you really can't force it.
>
> I would not have read her tumblr if she had requested that you not. If she is hiding things from you, then you need to work on making your relationship more open. If you want an open door policy, it should mean YOUR door is always open not hers. I highly recommend the book Parent/Teen Breakthrough, The Relationship Approach!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I really didn't want to get into the 'kissing incident', there is heaps behind this and my reaction to it. -=-
Don't bring up anything you don't want discussed.
It doesn't matter whether you want to get into it or not. Once the situation has been described, or a question has been asked, or an example has been given, it's on the table for anyone to discuss and you don't get to manage the direction of the discussion after that.
=============================
Always Learning is not a social network but a list to discuss what helps and hinders unschooling. The list exists to deepen understanding of natural learning.
Joyce Fetteroll, one of the moderators, described it this way:
The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
Joyce
No one is required to post anything. If you DO want to write, consider all this:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
=============================
The rest of it is at that link.
People are always saying they've read that page, and this one
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
but "reading" in this context doesn't mean eyes going back and forth as quickly as possible, nor even sounding all the words out. It means thinking about what is there, and why it's there, and then acting in accordance with one's best understanding of the purpose of those explanations.
Sandra
Don't bring up anything you don't want discussed.
It doesn't matter whether you want to get into it or not. Once the situation has been described, or a question has been asked, or an example has been given, it's on the table for anyone to discuss and you don't get to manage the direction of the discussion after that.
=============================
Always Learning is not a social network but a list to discuss what helps and hinders unschooling. The list exists to deepen understanding of natural learning.
Joyce Fetteroll, one of the moderators, described it this way:
The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
Joyce
No one is required to post anything. If you DO want to write, consider all this:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
=============================
The rest of it is at that link.
People are always saying they've read that page, and this one
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
but "reading" in this context doesn't mean eyes going back and forth as quickly as possible, nor even sounding all the words out. It means thinking about what is there, and why it's there, and then acting in accordance with one's best understanding of the purpose of those explanations.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 17, 2012, at 6:54 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
With games people don't plunge into serious playing before they understand. They play open hands. They play dry runs.
There is no open-hands or dry-run version of Always Learning. If someone posts, they post for real. And they'll get real feedback on their ideas.
Which is why people are asked to read for a while before posting. That's as close as people can come to "dry run" playing without the rules counting.
Perhaps it should be suggested people read the description and rules again after 2 weeks. They'll make more sense then because you're understanding of what the rules are referring to will have grown.
It's also how people learn naturally. You take in a bit of information, play around with it, observe, think about it, take in more bits, compare to the original bit which now looks different. And repeat.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It means thinking about what is there, and why it's there, and then actingThe description and rules are a lot like the rules of a game. No matter how clear they are, they're often easier to understand once you've played. But it's hard to play unless you understand the rules. :-)
> in accordance with one's best understanding of the purpose of those explanations.
With games people don't plunge into serious playing before they understand. They play open hands. They play dry runs.
There is no open-hands or dry-run version of Always Learning. If someone posts, they post for real. And they'll get real feedback on their ideas.
Which is why people are asked to read for a while before posting. That's as close as people can come to "dry run" playing without the rules counting.
Perhaps it should be suggested people read the description and rules again after 2 weeks. They'll make more sense then because you're understanding of what the rules are referring to will have grown.
It's also how people learn naturally. You take in a bit of information, play around with it, observe, think about it, take in more bits, compare to the original bit which now looks different. And repeat.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in4mkaren
Thanks for the additions to my thoughts, Connie and Sandra. Gives me more to chew on.
RE: Structure and Openness - If one harms the other, why try to embrace both equally?
I don't think it's a matter of embracing both equally but instead of incorporating both into a whole. I hear non-unschooling people say things like how they'd love to unschool but their child (or actually maybe the parent but they don't admit it to me) require more structure than that so they can't. I don't think the two are in opposition or that only people with "Type B" personalities can unschool successfully. (And I'm not saying you said that either, only that my thoughts went this direction.)
Instead of trying to make myself someone I'm not, I'm enjoying experimenting. I've gained a new understanding that it's ok that I feel preferences strongly, and that I like to know what's happening next or even a week from now and how I might handle it. But I'm also learning how to ask for, not demand, what I prefer, and what I can give up. I'm learning my children's personalities and preferences and how to value them. It's been quite a process, maybe more difficult for me at times than someone with a more relaxed personality, but I have a relationship with my children now that I never even imagined would be possible when we first started.
Karen W.
RE: Structure and Openness - If one harms the other, why try to embrace both equally?
I don't think it's a matter of embracing both equally but instead of incorporating both into a whole. I hear non-unschooling people say things like how they'd love to unschool but their child (or actually maybe the parent but they don't admit it to me) require more structure than that so they can't. I don't think the two are in opposition or that only people with "Type B" personalities can unschool successfully. (And I'm not saying you said that either, only that my thoughts went this direction.)
Instead of trying to make myself someone I'm not, I'm enjoying experimenting. I've gained a new understanding that it's ok that I feel preferences strongly, and that I like to know what's happening next or even a week from now and how I might handle it. But I'm also learning how to ask for, not demand, what I prefer, and what I can give up. I'm learning my children's personalities and preferences and how to value them. It's been quite a process, maybe more difficult for me at times than someone with a more relaxed personality, but I have a relationship with my children now that I never even imagined would be possible when we first started.
Karen W.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-But even in a family, policies can serve the family and not rule the family. Is this a good way to look at it? Or are there still difficulties?-=-
>
> If you decide now what you will do in a situation a week from now, you're not going to be really deciding in the moment, based on the conditions and the situation, on the mood of the people, on the reasons for their needs, and on the idea that you might know more in a week than you know today.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/moment
> http://sandradodd.com/being
>
> -=-I wonder about these things because I like order, organization, structure, etc... but I also love the openness of unschooling and prioritizing relationships, so I'm trying to work out what it looks like to embrace both in the context of the family I've got.-=-
>
> If one harms the other, why try to embrace both equally?
>
> You can like order, organization and structure without imposing it on other people.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Meredith
"in4mkaren" <kasmail@...> wrote:
Sometimes playing around with words can give you a different perspective. What if you replace "order, organization, structure" with words like coordination, harmony, rhythm. They don't mean exactly the same things, but they might suggest some of the same feelings to you without boxing in your thinking in the same way something like "structure" does.
---Meredith
>> I wonder about these things because I like order, organization, structure, etc... but I also love the openness of unschooling and prioritizing relationships, so I'm trying to work out what it looks like to embrace both in the context of the family I've got.*************
Sometimes playing around with words can give you a different perspective. What if you replace "order, organization, structure" with words like coordination, harmony, rhythm. They don't mean exactly the same things, but they might suggest some of the same feelings to you without boxing in your thinking in the same way something like "structure" does.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't think it's a matter of embracing both equally but instead of incorporating both into a whole. I hear non-unschooling people say things like how they'd love to unschool but-=-
Too often, quite often, maybe all the time, "Yeah, but…" really means "No, stop telling me that."
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
The cup of tea story, please.
You're telling us what you already know and what you're not willing to change.
Reading more without writing might be good, too.
This is a fairly light week, and still there are 20 new members and 107 messages. If people can slow down, think, read the links, watch their children, there will be more peace on and off the discussion.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Anyone who hasn't read the intro to the group/list, or who hasn't read it recently, should do so, please.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Sandra
Too often, quite often, maybe all the time, "Yeah, but…" really means "No, stop telling me that."
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
The cup of tea story, please.
You're telling us what you already know and what you're not willing to change.
Reading more without writing might be good, too.
This is a fairly light week, and still there are 20 new members and 107 messages. If people can slow down, think, read the links, watch their children, there will be more peace on and off the discussion.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Anyone who hasn't read the intro to the group/list, or who hasn't read it recently, should do so, please.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Sandra
in4mkaren
Yes! That's it! Thanks! Just like we've mentally shifted from "obedience" to "cooperation," from "demand" to "request," "welcoming and enjoyable" instead of "clean." And I've recently been replacing "responsibility" with "generosity."
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "in4mkaren" <kasmail@> wrote:
> >> I wonder about these things because I like order, organization, structure, etc... but I also love the openness of unschooling and prioritizing relationships, so I'm trying to work out what it looks like to embrace both in the context of the family I've got.
> *************
>
> Sometimes playing around with words can give you a different perspective. What if you replace "order, organization, structure" with words like coordination, harmony, rhythm. They don't mean exactly the same things, but they might suggest some of the same feelings to you without boxing in your thinking in the same way something like "structure" does.
>
> ---Meredith
>