[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
>From: plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...>

>
>Probably on some level you were thinking that if your son spent the money, it would teach him something about responsibility, but teaching never guarantees learning. He could just as well learn that adults are selfish and avoid responsibility whenever possible. Fortunately, learning is rarely a "once and for all" thing and you'll have plenty of chances to be gracious and helpful and giving.
>

Just to clarify, I'm not the original poster. I just wanted some more thoughts on the ideas around allowances and how we choose to allocate the money a family has.

I think we do well getting our kids the things they want, even those things I have to get past my judgment about (Club Penguin membership, for example). The longer I've been reading this list, the more I've been noticing those judgments and letting them go. They still pop up, but I'm recognizing it.

I appreciate the comments on this. It's really helping me to look deeper at my own behavior around money and seeing those places where I'm not honoring their interests when it comes down to paying for things.

I'd like to hear more about the role of an allowance at all...my kids have one from my dad, who just started giving them five bucks a week because he wanted to. Otherwise, we'd just used our family money for everything. I do see them enjoying having their own money in their wallets, though, and thinking about what to buy and what not to buy. And my eldest is really finding satisfaction in earning money doing bigger jobs around here.

I'd like to hear it if anyone would share if you do allowances and how that plays out in your family.

Michelle

Wife to Bob
Momma to George (13yo), Theo (9 1/2), Eli (6 3/4), and Ollie (closing in on 2yo!)

If my life wasn't funny, it would just be true, and that's unacceptable.
-- Carrie Fisher

Sandra Dodd

Some notes from prior discussions:

http://sandradodd.com/money

In some places, "allowance" is called "pocket money." Are there other terms for a regular dispensing of some personal funds to children?

We did it, but if they wanted something that seemed like an expense of our decision to unschool, I would buy it. The allowance was for things they didn't need to discuss with anyone.

I've seen some families "give" an allowance with all kinds of restrictions about what percentage must be saved or given to the church. I don't like that. The parents could have just put some savings somewhere for the child every week, and extra offering, and only give the child the amount that WAS actually his.

Allowance shouldn't be a test a child can fail.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Oh wait! that link was mostly my writing. It links to the writings of many other unschoolers, on blogs, as part of a blog carnival about allowances (I think).

I can't vouch for all those but they'll all have ideas!

Sandra

Gwen Montoya

This is similar to what I do also.

We went to an art supply store this week to pick up tracing paper for my
oldest. While we were there I found some other paper (watercolor & spiral
bound sketching paper). Megan (almost 10) wanted to use her allowance to buy
the tracing paper and I bought the other paper. Sometimes she's ok with me
buying it for her and sometimes she wants to use her money. And I almost
always cover the cost of what we find at the thrift store because it is just
a couple of dollars and I can usually cover that.

In the past she's bought DS games and other things that used up her entire
allowance fairly quickly, but over the past couple of months she's buying
smaller things. She's tried subscriptions to several online games and has
discontinued them. Sometimes they lasted months and sometimes only a month.

My youngest (five in October) gets an allowance also. Hers is much smaller,
but still enough to buy a new toy. Sometimes what she finds is a little more
expensive ($5 or so) than her allowance - so if I have the extra money I
chip in so she has enough. Or if I know the place she wants to go, like
Build-a-Bear, is going to be way out of her price range I try to avoid it
unless/until I know I have enough extra to make it a fun trip.

We've also talked about finding things on freecycle or craigslist or amazon
or half.com or the thrift store - all the places that can make their money
stretch a little farther.

My husband and I recently separated so money may be a little tighter, but I
treat my kids' allowances as bills that need to be paid (if money gets
really tight, I'll have to revisit that, but until then...that's how I see
it)

Gwen

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> We did it, but if they wanted something that seemed like an expense of our
> decision to unschool, I would buy it. The allowance was for things they
> didn't need to discuss with anyone.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

chris ester

My children have received an allowance--just like my husband and I do, since
they were old enough to ask for things in a store. We have used the
allowance plan that we have to learn about budgeting and saving, and what
money means in society. We treat money in our family as one of the family
resources and so everyone gets a share in the resources and responsibilities
of our little nuclear cooperative. Each to his own ability and role. The
adults make most of the decisions, because of advanced experience and
development, legal liability, and because they have the lion's share of the
responsibility. Everyone gets a say and a vote on most things. This
includes investing as well. Both of my children are pretty savvy consumers.

Neither of my children suffer from a shortage of stuff, but when we are in a
store doing the usual shopping, they almost never ask for frivolous
things--they buy what they want with their money. They never "beg" or
complain if they do ask and we don't have the money for whatever it is. And
yes, if it seems like a purchase that fits into our unschooling life or if
it seems like a really good idea for the household, then the adults pay for
it.

Thinking about this, I think that my children know that I am not just saying
no to say no; we only have a finite amount of money in our budget and so we
all have to thoroughly consider what we spend money on. This applies to the
entire family, not just children.

As for spending their own money, the family adults only comment on a
purchase if it seems that the quality or price is less than optimal. This
is no less than we would do for any other adult. Otherwise, I try to share
in the joy that my kids get from whatever it is that they have purchased and
keep my misgivings to myself (another video game? Sparkly lip gloss?!?!
--thoughts that I have kept to myself). It is their money and they may
spend it any way that they want to, with the caveat that the purchase is
legal of course.

Through the years they have both learned to shop and compare prices and
evaluate the quality and value of an item. I really think that this is due
in large part to their having spending power of their own.

As to savings, we ask our children to save 50% of any regular income, since
they do not have to pay rent or utilities, or any other actual living
expense. Gift money of course is theirs to do with as they please. To
encourage saving, my husband and I match what they save. We recently
realized that we may have to put a limit on that as my son is thinking about
getting a job outside of the house.

Chris

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Some notes from prior discussions:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/money
>
> In some places, "allowance" is called "pocket money." Are there other terms
> for a regular dispensing of some personal funds to children?
>
> We did it, but if they wanted something that seemed like an expense of our
> decision to unschool, I would buy it. The allowance was for things they
> didn't need to discuss with anyone.
>
> I've seen some families "give" an allowance with all kinds of restrictions
> about what percentage must be saved or given to the church. I don't like
> that. The parents could have just put some savings somewhere for the child
> every week, and extra offering, and only give the child the amount that WAS
> actually his.
>
> Allowance shouldn't be a test a child can fail.
>
> Sandra
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

chris ester

>>>I do see them enjoying having their own money in their wallets, though,
and thinking about what to buy and what not to buy. And my eldest is really
finding satisfaction in earning money doing bigger jobs around here.

I'd like to hear it if anyone would share if you do allowances and how that
plays out in your family.

Michelle<<<<<

As I have said elsewhere, everyone in our family gets an allowance as part
of the family budget. I get the household expense money in my allowance
because I am the "chief procurement officer" (I buy the groceries and
everything else), my husband gets a sum of money for lunches at work (when
he doesn't pack a lunch) and miscellaneous, our kids get a sum that is 3
times their age every pay day (every two weeks) and are asked to save half
of what they get (and my husband and I match their savings). They have the
opportunity to earn more money around the house for doing jobs above and
beyond their usual responsibilities. As far as 'chores', everyone is a part
of the household and is expected to participate in maintaining the
household, we do not necessarily get paid for cleaning or cooking because
this is our home and we have to maintain it. It is not unheard of that
people get paid to do someone else's usual job. And as for jobs or chores,
the kids pick out what they want to do off of a list of things that need to
be done. I make the lists and provide guidance and reminders when needed.

We are a family full of absent minded people who are not particularly good
at being organized. Because of our own limitations around keeping track of
things, my husband and I both carry a purse. He started carrying a purse
when we were in college and he had lost his wallet for a third time in as
many months. Now, many years later, his purse isn't organized but
everything he needs is in there....

Both of our children, either through genetics or modeling (probably both),
are also organizationally challenged. My son is worse than my daughter, but
we (the family) decided that everyone would carry a purse. Everyone has a
cell phone, which was acquired using a good deal of the family's resources
and so needs to be kept track of, not to mention money and other valuables
that go into the purse. My son's purse is really more of a wallet on a
string that he chose with a little help for me, my daughter carries a big
purse with lots of stuff in it. Since an incident last year of a nearly
lost allowance, I do not give out money (I am the family payroll clerk)
unless they have their purse or wallet. We have been working on everyone
remembering their purse when we leave the house. We also are working on
things going into the purse that belongs there. Organizational skills are a
big part of our unschooling "program"--read;something that the entire family
works on almost all of the time.

As for money management and consumer skills; my kids (now 13 and 15) are
pretty consumer savvy and know how to shop online and in thrift shops and
Craigslist, freecycle and the like. I can often send them with a list to
the grocery store and they do a great job. They both have a general savings
that is for the future as well as a savings for stuff that they want to get
for themselves. Right now they do not have bank accounts, but they do each
have a investing account that we set up for them to put their savings into.
They have jars in their rooms to keep their savings in. Both keep track of
their money in a little notebook. This was an idea that they had. I helped
them set their budget books up.
chris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

michmag5@... wrote:
>> I'd like to hear more about the role of an allowance at all...my kids have one from my dad, who just started giving them five bucks a week because he wanted to. Otherwise, we'd just used our family money for everything. I do see them enjoying having their own money in their wallets, though, and thinking about what to buy and what not to buy. And my eldest is really finding satisfaction in earning money doing bigger jobs around here.
********************

If you're inclined to balk at certain purchases it can be helpful to give kids some money of their own - really their own, so they can make decisions without having to wade through your issues and baggage. It can also be more convenient for kids to have money in their pockets, especially if they're able to go to the store on their own, or go with friends. But it can also work just to hand a child money going out the door, or leave a "pot" of spending money somewhere everyone can dip into at need.

How much to give depends a lot on the family budget - I personally know one unschooling family which allocates something like $2 a week to their tweens because that's how tight the family budget is and another which gives something closer to $30 a week. Kelly Lovejoy suggests giving kids enough that they can spend some and save some if they want, which has always made good sense to me, but my own budget is pretty slim. I divvy up whatever is left over after bills and sometimes allocate most of my own "pocket money" to buying something for the kids. I feel good when I buy for them.

Currently I work for a facet of the construction industry and my partner is self-employed so we don't have a terribly consistent income. That's not a good setup for a regular allowance so I try to be as tranparent as I can about the family finances without giving more information than the kids want. Mo, especially, doesn't want all the gory details of our finances, she wants to know how much is available to her.

>>And my eldest is really finding satisfaction in earning money doing bigger jobs around here.
****************

I've paid Ray to do things I'd hire someone to do. I've paid when I've had work to do at home (paying work, I mean) and can find a way for the kids to help. I've been a subcontractor and think of kid-labor in those terms - they get a "cut of the action". But it seems disingenuous to me to "pay" for extra work if I have extra money, rather than saying "hey, there's extra in the budget this week!" and figuring out how to spread it around. It's not always a matter of dividing things up perfectly evenly, especially when we get a big chunk of money all at once. Then I tend to look at the big purchases on our various wish lists and go by that. So over the winter we chipped in to help Ray buy a car (he has a couple part-time jobs) while in the spring we got a new robotics program for Mo.

---Meredith

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
>From: plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...>

>I've paid Ray to do things I'd hire someone to do. I've paid when I've had work to do at home (paying work, I mean) and can find a way for the kids to help. I've been a subcontractor and think of kid-labor in those terms - they get a "cut of the action". But it seems disingenuous to me to "pay" for extra work if I have extra money, rather than saying "hey, there's extra in the budget this week!" and figuring out how to spread it around. <

What's happening with George is that he's rejected my offers of paying for certain things, really wanting to earn the money himself.

Michelle

Wife to Bob
Momma to George (13yo), Theo (9 1/2), Eli (6 3/4), and Ollie (closing in on 2yo!)

If my life wasn't funny, it would just be true, and that's unacceptable.
-- Carrie Fisher

plaidpanties666

chris ester <chris.homeschool@...> wrote:
>We have used the
> allowance plan that we have to learn about budgeting and saving, and what
> money means in society.

"Have to learn" is a good phrase to examine. It's rooted in the idea that people won't learn the *right* things on their own. When you step away from have tos and clandestine teaching tools, kids still learn about the world. Kids given money freely, no strings attached, still learn about budgets and "the value of money".

>>they almost never ask for frivolous
> things

What's a frivolous thing? It's something to think about, not necessarily answer here. Pegging some interests as frivolous devalues a person's feelings. It's a way of shutting someone down when he or she expresses joy in small, simple pleasures. There's cultural baggage and a surprising amount of internalized sexism in the idea of "frivolous things". One of the very common complaints against unschooling as a philosophy is that it values frivolous things like joy over serious things like discipline.

> if it seems like a purchase that fits into our unschooling life or if
> it seems like a really good idea for the household, then the adults pay for
> it.

But frivolous things like video games and lip-gloss Do, absolutely, fit into an unschooling life. So why not offer to buy those, too? Lovliness and enjoyment *are* valuable additions to a household. You're still thinking in terms of molding kids in a particular direction rather than supporting their interests with the understanding that learning Is happening. You aren't trusting your kids to grow into thoughtful, responsible people without weighing their choices for them. You're valuing a kind of right answer over the process of thoughtful decision making.

And it seems like your kids have figured out how to give you the kind of answers you want. That's not a terrible thing, but you're describing a kind of teaching, of setting up "life lessons" rather than striving to be your kids' partner in discovery.

---Meredith

Joyce Fetteroll

While I can picture what you're doing as running smoothly for you and
working for the goals you've created, the problem with "Here's what
works for us" type ideas is that it's like the instructions of a
recipe but without the ingredients. The instructions are the steps you
do. The ingredients are your family: the personalities, culture and
skills you each have.

The instructions create an apple pie you like in your family because
your personalities, culture and skills are apples, flour, butter and
sweet spices. If you hand those instructions to someone's whose family
is rice, tomatoes and beans it wont "work", eg, won't create an apple
pie.

"Work" for this list is defined as nurturing great relationships with
them (and between them and the world they live in), living and
learning joyfully. And what the list tries to help people get a grasp
of is not the instructions for apple pies but the chemistry and
physics that create the type of synergy this list focuses on, eg,
radical unschooling (as defined on this list) that "works" (as defined
previously).


> We have used the
> allowance plan that we have to learn about budgeting and saving, and
> what
> money means in society.

Two physics/chemistry ideas that help unschooling work:

First, seeing the family as a collection of unique individuals with
unique wants and needs who occasionally have the same feelings and
outlook. You've used "we" to mean both you and your husband and the
whole family. You have referred to that "we" as having thoughts and
needs.

In families with similar personalities it can be easy to fall into the
trap of focusing on where you all overlap on tastes and goals. It's
good to keep front and center the idea that the overlap is more of a
chance connection than a goal of unschooling. It's cool -- and
convenient! :-) -- when people in the family have similar tastes. It
helps unschooling flourish, though, when we recognize how seeing our
similarities can lock our focus too much onto our overlap and get in
the way seeing each person as an individual with unique outlook,
interests and goals.

Maybe this helps: Carl, Kat and I love Buffy: The Vampire Slayer. My
husband likes it for the humor and personalities. I like that too but
also love the bigger story it all creates. So when "we" decide to
watch Buffy he really means the 1st 3 seasons and I mean all 7. (Kat
can go either way ;-) So when we get up to season 4 I need to keep in
mind that while the overlaps allows us to enjoy Buffy together, what
lies beneath that overlap is different and we do have differences that
need respected to grow healthy relationships.

Second, for unschooling to work -- nurture relationships, learn
joyfully -- it helps to mentally shift away from what kids will learn
and, instead, think in terms of them experiencing a wide variety of
ideas and *trusting* they will learn a variety of things. *What* kids
will learn is not in our control. And it can lead to frustration if we
expect them to learn certain ideas and they aren't showing they are.
Trust that kids are thinking beings. Trust that if an idea is a good
one, kids *will* embrace it. But they have their own schedule. They
may be exploring a totally different aspect of life and the "lesson"
you want them to learn isn't important to them right now.

Trust also that they are their own beings. It's unlikely they'll
embrace as adults all the ideas we think are good. But they're far
more likely to have pleasant associations with our ideas if their
experiences with them are positive and as having helped them reach
their own goals. They're more likely to reject ideas (in what seems
like knee-jerk, thoughtless ways) that are imposed on them as lessons
they need to learn just because they finally have the ability to
choose and want to show in a very in your face way that they have the
power to make their own choices.

> We treat money in our family as one of the family
> resources and so everyone gets a share in the resources and
> responsibilities
> of our little nuclear cooperative.

Adult responsibilities and kid "responsibilities" are often treated as
though they were the same but they aren't. And because kids see the
difference that adults don't, adults get flabbergasted when they see
kids "shirk their responsibilities" when really kids are rejecting
choices that aren't *to them* *yet* worth their time and energy.

Responsibilities are what we've chosen to take on. We decide for our
own selves what level of care we want to give those tasks. We make
that determination based on what consequences we want from a task or
are willing to put up with.

The "responsibilities" that adults decide belong to kids have none of
that. Kids don't get to decide whether they want the task or not.
(Choosing from a list of tasks isn't a true choice. Adults can choose
"None of the above." Kids don't get that choice.) They don't get to
determine the level of care they want to give a task. They aren't
making decisions based on what they want to achieve or avoid for
themselves or others. They have to do the task or suffer the adult-
imposed consequences. And, unlike natural consequences, the adult-
imposed ones get ramped up until the child does the task. (Or the
adult gives in ;-) Which is a choice for the adult! It's not about
responsibilities at all. It's a battle over who has control over a
chunk of the child's time.)

Many many people see responsibilities as "have tos" when really they
are "choose tos because the other options have consequences I really
really don't want." Even taking care of your children is not a have
to. It's hugely freeing when someone realizes she's *choosing* to care
for her kids, (stay with a marriage, clean a toilet, pay bills, make
dinner from scratch) because she wants a, b, and c and really doesn't
want x, y and z. And she's totally completely free to choose what
level of care she wants to give to each and what level of consequences
she wants to put up with.

Sandra has a great collection of writings on the idea of "have to"
http://sandradodd.com/haveto


> Each to his own ability and role.

But who assigns the role?

For radical unschooling purposes, the child chooses the role they want
to play. Unschooling parents invite the kids into their world to play
(at various real world tasks and parents' interests) while tailoring
it to the child's ability and interest since the adult's goal is for
the child to enjoy being with the parent. But (to build the
relationship) the child is allowed to say "No, thanks! I've got other
(important to me) things to do!"


> Both of my children are pretty savvy consumers.

As is my daughter without most of what you did in order (supposedly)
for your kids to learn. Kat prefers to spend as little as possible on
an item because she wants to get the most out of her money. It's a
pretty obvious idea and not something kids need to be taught! What
kids need from our greater storehouse of knowledge is exposure to the
various places where they can find what they want cheaply and the
freedom to choose and make decisions. And that freedom includes
choosing to pay full price when the pros outweigh the cons for the
child. (Like getting a video game or TV series on DVD someone has
been looking forward to that was just released.)

The goal is making thoughtful decisions, not learning to be your
definition of savvy consumers, if you see the difference.

> As for spending their own money, the family adults only comment on a
> purchase if it seems that the quality or price is less than optimal


It's not as useful for unschooling when stated as a rule.

What's a more useful way of seeing this for unschooling is as sharing
our knowledge to help them get what they want while giving them ideas
on how they could also achieve other goals they might find valuable.

If they don't feel the extra isn't adding much value to them, if they
feel they can reject the information, if they feel the parent is
focused on helping with the child's goal rather than focused on the
adult's goal of teaching them the right way to think about something,
they're more likely to give thoughtful consideration to the information.

If it's a way of view that's imposed on them as how they need to think
about something, they're more likely to reject it without thought just
to feel in control.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 24, 2011, at 8:58 AM, plaidpanties666 wrote:

> >We have used the
> > allowance plan that we have to learn about budgeting and saving,
> and what
> > money means in society.
>
> "Have to learn" is a good phrase to examine.

I read it that way too initially. Actually the meaning she intended
was: "We have used the allowance plan we have [in order] to learn ..."

Which has other issues that interfere with the smooth flow of
unschooling ;-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marina DeLuca-Howard

I don't know--parents are odd about "finances" in most families.
Today Rowan and two of his friends went to the zoo. I overheard his
friend Zac say he had more money than he's ever carried--$50.00. I
called down to Rowan that my purse was in the hallway and to help
himself to some cash. I think all he took was some change for the bus
because I had 50 dollars in bills and it is still there.


I checked because Martin wants to buy a yoyo and wanted some extra
cash for other expenses. Martin wants his own business. We have a
small garden and he is determined to sell our berries. It hasn't
panned out so far--though I bought some of the strawberries. It
wasn't him doing a chore for money.

The kids contribute their labour to household duties because they see
a need. Martin is keen to compost fruit and put dishes in the
dishwasher now because he wants to avoid fruit-flies and bugs. He
doesn't like bugs and he has noticed during a heat-wave if you leave a
plate next to you with watermelon rinds it gets covered in fruit-flies
quickly. They have all been putting things away to help out--not for
money nor praise.

I don't know how much money Rowan had on him, but he thought it was
enough and with the freedom to take what he needed he took only some
change for the bus. We aren't well off by any stretch and I'm
constantly revamping our budget to find more money for the kids. I do
this because I love them and I want them to be comfortable. I don't
feel deprived because I don't buy into the "treat" yourself mindset or
that moms are martyrs who need spa visits and to pamper themselves to
make up for the joyless task of childrearing;) My treat is a vase of
flowers from our garden, some fresh seasonal fruit and coffee and
dessert in my own kitchen tastes just as good:)

I don't go on shopping splurges for clothes, but I try to look clean
and presentable. If I go to sales with my sil we wait for the big
reductions. Our aim is not to wear stained ripped worn out clothes
because as homeschooling mothers people look at us and our kids
closely. If the kids aren't always impeccably groomed then the moms
should be just to avoid the attention of child protection folks, but
also to live in the real world.

When I was childless I looked very "alternative" and cool with clothes
ripped just so--now I look respectable and mom-like. I use the tv
sitcom moms as a guide because that's what the guy at the grocery
store see as "normal"--not the dysfunctional ones from reality shows
of course:) The tv moms are always well-groomed and funny articulate
people, but without wardrobe and scripts I just wing it:)

The other day a woman with cancer with her meds strapped to her
started chatting with me about her four year old starting school. I
give off experienced mom vibes and have such perfect angels with me
that other moms looking for reassurance often start conversations;) I
never told her I was a homeschooler, let alone an unschooler. The
advantage of summer is all the kids are loose! She was telling me
about the trauma coming next September for her youngest child.

I remarked that a need met in childhood gets extinguished and just
through gentle prodding ended up with the discussion being there is no
reason teachers or parents have to treat children like chattel to be
picked up and bent to their will. It was very subtle. I mentioned I
never left my children crying in a kindergarten class and mused that I
wouldn't leave my husband if he was alone and scared in a strange
place so why would I leave my kids who don't have the same coping
skills as an adult yet. My kids all tried kindergarten, though and I
was prepared to support their choices. When they chose not to go I
supported that choice, when they wanted to sit in my lap outside the
classroom I supported that choice. Some teachers think that's
"spoiling" and they say so. Maybe it was the cancer but suddenly the
woman who was anxious was talking about parental rights to protect the
kids and how wrong the mean teachers are to rip crying children from
their moms.

She and the others who drifted into the conversation were not ready
for protecting and treating the child's emotional needs as "real" or
their autonomy as important. But she was ready to think about the
possibility that its in nobody's best interest to be mistreated and
have his or her feelings ignored or trivialized.

It was obvious that this was an acceptable practice--ripping kids from
their mothers and she was echoing the teacher's sentiments "its for
their own good" to be separated. By the end of the discussion she was
questioning everything and so was a mom in the same boat with a child
starting school next September. This was her first child. I stopped
while I was ahead and we didn't get into more "alternative" parenting
childrearing ideas. But speaking the lingo and looking the part of
the mainstream mother definitely helps me advocate for my kids and
kids in general.

But in practice I don't like the nickel and diming or micromanagment
of kids adults do just because they can. I don't think adults should
risk homelessness or malnourishment to furnish computers and amusement
park outings; however, doling out money in a miserly fashion cuz they
gotta learn doesn't really ring true as "partnering" with your child
and sharing as much abundance as there is too be shared. Finances is
a big touchstone for many--not television, nor junkfood, nor computers
nor sleep.

Marina

On 24/07/2011, michmag5@... <michmag5@...> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...>
>
>>I've paid Ray to do things I'd hire someone to do. I've paid when I've had
>> work to do at home (paying work, I mean) and can find a way for the kids
>> to help. I've been a subcontractor and think of kid-labor in those terms -
>> they get a "cut of the action". But it seems disingenuous to me to "pay"
>> for extra work if I have extra money, rather than saying "hey, there's
>> extra in the budget this week!" and figuring out how to spread it around.
>> <
>
> What's happening with George is that he's rejected my offers of paying for
> certain things, really wanting to earn the money himself.
>
> Michelle
>
> Wife to Bob
> Momma to George (13yo), Theo (9 1/2), Eli (6 3/4), and Ollie (closing in on
> 2yo!)
>
> If my life wasn't funny, it would just be true, and that's unacceptable.
> -- Carrie Fisher
>
>


--
"Insomnia is almost an oasis in which those who have to think or suffer
darkly take refuge." --Colette--
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/

hamsder clan

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:32 AM, plaidpanties666
<plaidpanties666@...>wrote:

> **
>
> If you're inclined to balk at certain purchases it can be helpful to give
> kids some money of their own - really their own, so they can make decisions
> without having to wade through your issues and baggage.
>


We recently started giving our kids (ages 4 and 6) an allowance, and one
part of the reason is exactly what Meredith touched on here. I sometimes
balk at certain purchases and with an allowance the kids have recourse when
I'm mis-judging how important a purchase is to them relative to our
available funds. As a bit of a disclaimer, I want to say up front that we
are lucky enough to have pretty generous available funds. :) On the other
hand, my husband and I are both by nature somewhat stingy (fiscally
conservative?) and that is something we've had to work on in our early
unschooling adventure.

The other reason we started giving them an allowance is because they asked
us to. :)

I have really enjoyed seeing how they spend their money-- it has given me
lots of ideas for how I can be enriching their lives in ways that they will
enjoy.

An example that took me completely by surprise involved hair cuts. My
daughter has always loved having her hair cut at a salon. I always washed
her hair before we went so we didn't have to pay for a shampoo there. When
we first started doing allowances, the first thing my daughter said she
wanted to save for was a shampoo the next time she got her hair cut. I had
no idea she had been wishing for that so we have made the salon shampoo part
of her regular routine.

I've found that the kids having their own money has made it easy to figure
out what purchases are really important to them. I don't say no often, but
if I do and they decide to use their own money it's a big ol' sign to me
that it was important enough that I should have bought it in the first
place. In fact, my no often turns to a yes in those cases and their money
usually gets spent on special purpose trips to a toy or craft store.

On a practical note, they each have a money purse that stays in the car.
After one was lost (we think it was left near the car door and fell out when
the door was opened), they asked me to keep them in the glove compartment
until they were ready to use them. I add money to their purses every week (I
mark it on a calendar or I would forget) without mentioning it to them--
they're often pleasantly surprised to discover how much they have to spend
when they're ready to make a purchase.

That's how allowances have worked out for our family-- it's been fun. :)

--jenny (Larkin 6, Finn 4)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-But in practice I don't like the nickel and diming or micromanagment
of kids adults do just because they can. I don't think adults should
risk homelessness or malnourishment to furnish computers and amusement
park outings; however, doling out money in a miserly fashion cuz they
gotta learn doesn't really ring true as "partnering" with your child
and sharing as much abundance as there is too be shared. Finances is
a big touchstone for many--not television, nor junkfood, nor computers
nor sleep.-=-

In all the years I've been writing with/to/for unschoolers, finances is miniature compared to television and food. Sleep is smaller than television and bigger than money.

I with you wouldn't say "junkfood." Everytime that name is spoken it makes it seem more legitimate, but the term itself is a problem.

-=- I don't think adults should risk homelessness or malnourishment to furnish computers and amusement park outings; however,...-=-

I've never known anyone to recommend that someone risk homelessness nor to buy computers instead of food.
I've never known anyone to do it.
Using that as a contrasting position in a discussion like this seems to me to be too extreme, and I don't want any newer readers thinking that any such recommendation or expectation has ever been on the table.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Don't put "chores" in quotation marks if they are real chores in the spirit of things that "have to" be done and aren't optional. They're not "so called chores" then but regular old chores.

-=-As far as 'chores', everyone is a part
of the household and is expected to participate in maintaining the
household, we do not necessarily get paid for cleaning or cooking because
this is our home and we have to maintain it. It is not unheard of that
people get paid to do someone else's usual job. And as for jobs or chores,
the kids pick out what they want to do off of a list of things that need to
be done. I make the lists and provide guidance and reminders when needed.-=-

"Everyone is expected..." is arbitrary and the expectation isn't naturally occurring. YOU expect it, which means you decided and you enforce.

-=-... because this is our home and we have to maintain it. -=-

"Have to" is a fallacy.
"I make them" would be more honest. Not nearer to understanding how children would learn about such things, but more honest.

http://sandradodd.com/chores

Of course no family "has to" read or do those things, but for the purpose of this list and the discussion of unschooling, I want to point out that there ARE other ways to see that, and that "have to" will put a plug in the flow of one's understanding of choices.

http://sandradodd.com/haveto

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=. It is their money and they may
spend it any way that they want to, with the caveat that the purchase is
legal of course.-=-

Why do you need that caveat?
No parents have the right to allow illegal purchases.

Unschooling doesn't somehow give people a pass to ignore laws.

And if you ask them to put half in savings because they don't have to pay rent, it might be better not to say it's their money and they can spend it any way they want to. Except. But.

-=-We recently
realized that we may have to put a limit on that as my son is thinking about
getting a job outside of the house.-=-

Please proofread your posts before sending them to the list, and if a post contains "have to," think about whether that can be rephrased.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***In all the years I've been writing with/to/for unschoolers, finances is miniature compared to television and food. Sleep is smaller than television and bigger than money.***


The food issue seems to be the biggest, in my experience!  The food issue is often tied to the money issue!  Locally, it's caused the most unrest and confusion on unschooling lists.  There are LOTS of unschoolers who control food.  I doubt they will post on a list like this because they don't want it questioned.  It's the great big divide, it seems between unschooling academics and radical unschooling.  Media of all kinds, TV included, comes into play right in there with the unschooling academics.  Since many people do not see media as valuable in education, they won't include it in their academic unschooling.  

But the food issue, THAT one is HUGE!  I've attempted to parse it out for myself over and over and over.  I've avoided passing it on to my kids.  My best knowledge of food comes straight from my own experience as a child with food limitations and force, so even IF my kids had been in school all these years, I would still not be limiting and forcing food, but I might have limited media usage and money would be parsed out differently for sure, and sleep would need to be on a schedule to match school.  My personal opinion is that food is such a big issue for people because it is directly linked to nourishment, both mentally and physically, and it's completely necessary for survival.  Media and money are a whole different thing and sleep happens whether we try to force it or not.

It seems weird that food gets linked into unschooling, but it does.  It is really only an unschooling issue in so far as control and placing limits aren't optimal for unschooling to flourish the way it does beautifully when those things don't come into play.  Media and money and sleep are exactly the same in that regard.  Once a person starts questioning assumptions about why control is necessary, or why anything is necessary, it only seems natural to question everything.  I don't think I will ever truly understand those that unschool only academics.  Even when we first started unschooling, it made sense to me to extend unschooling to life outside of "subjects" and "necessary".  It made sense that it would move straight on into everything else like when and what to eat and when to sleep and how to occupy one's time with media and how to meet the needs of everyone in the family within our monetary means.

The most helpful bit of advice, or idea about money that I got from unschooling was the idea of money belonging to the family unit, not simply the ones earning the money.  Once I was able to see that buying a seemingly necessary item for myself was the exact same thing as buying something that one of my children deemed necessary, it changed my ability to be a better partner for my kids.  When I buy something specifically for myself, I recognize it for what it is, it is a selfish act.  There isn't anything wrong with thinking of oneself or using money to buy something for yourself.  The difference is that a lot of parents do it automatically and dismiss completely something a child wants as selfish and unnecessary, ignoring the very fact that they have just done for themselves something that a child can't do.  Parents do that with food too, and that is why the food issue often is tied to money.

There is a part in the movie Matilda, where the mean aunt takes a piece of chocolate from the chocolate box and eats it in front of the little girl and says, "much too good for children", while that girl is remembering how her own father would take a chocolate out of the box and split it in half to share it as a gift.  It's an attitude shift.  Parents can be greedy and selfish or they can share with an act of servitude and graciousness.  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

 ***As far as 'chores', everyone is a part
of the household and is expected to participate in maintaining the
household, we do not necessarily get paid for cleaning or cooking because
this is our home and we have to maintain it.***


I know plenty of parents who feel that way.  One mom I know certainly felt that way strongly enough that her expectation of such things ruled the house and everything her daughter did or wanted to do.  If the daughter wanted to spend her small amount of free time playing, she HAD TO do her household expectations first.  That girl ran away from home twice.  She grew to hate her mother and spent the last 10 months in a mother appointed rehab center, living away from home, learning how to be a good daughter that follows the rules and appreciates her mother's expectations.

I hope you don't do that, but people do.  It's not a thought that goes in the direction of happy peaceful unschooling.

_._,___

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-For radical unschooling purposes, the child chooses the role they want to play.-=-

I loved everything in Joyce's post up to that point.

There will be people who read something like that and then turn to a child and say "You get to choose the role you want to play. So what will that be?"

If parents interact with children just as they interact with other humans, and choices and options are real and abundant, the child will be being himself rather than choosing a role.

Because I know Joyce, I think I know what she meant.
Because I've met many confused unschoolers (and confused homeschoolers who have rejected the idea of unschooling because they've heard spooky rumors and misinformation), that statement jumped out at me honking.

-=-If they don't feel the extra isn't adding much value to them, if they
feel they can reject the information, if they feel the parent is
focused on helping with the child's goal rather than focused on the
adult's goal of teaching them the right way to think about something,
they're more likely to give thoughtful consideration to the information.

-=-If it's a way of view that's imposed on them as how they need to think
about something, they're more likely to reject it without thought just
to feel in control.-=-

I think those were good to repeat. They both have to do with there being a winner and a loser, in a situation. Antagonism. Adversarial stances.

http://sandradodd.com/partners/child

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marina DeLuca-Howard

<<I with you wouldn't say "junkfood." Everytime that name is spoken it makes
it seem more legitimate, but the term itself is a problem.>>

You are right. I'm doing a discussion circle at an unschooling conference
on Natural Parenting and parenting naturally in part because people refer to
some food as "junkfood" and other food as natural. Really, there are sorts
of issues besides food entwined with natural--clothes, plastic toys,
computers, television, and all sorts of "Natural" with a capital "N" that I
have been looking at more closely. You know "Natural consequences" that
come from a parent's dark place that result in preventable losses if the
parent acts or sadness for the child.

Finances seep into all sorts of transactions--including television, sleep
and computers. Does the child's computer get to be the best you can afford,
do their hours on it get governed by the cost of electricity? I see
finances as seeping into all sorts of rules, just as rather invisible
considerations. And I don't mean income level restrictions.

There are lots of parents in debt because of private schools or large
purchases. Debt in the western world in the form of personal debt is high.
Some of that debt while not child-led is purchases for children--perhaps
not unschoolers, but in the regular parenting world people are charging
tutoring services and special classes for kids on credit cards. I have
gotten into discussions about that with parents who are paying someone large
amounts of cash to spend time with their child so they can get "ahead" in
the world of school. I have met these parents who are in debt over private
schools, swimming pools and horses they wanted to provide for their kids.
Losing everything and declaring personal bankruptcy may be too much
hyperbole:) on my part though and humour and irony do get lost on occasion.

Marina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

chris ester

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:58 AM, plaidpanties666
<plaidpanties666@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> chris ester <chris.homeschool@...> wrote:
> >We have used the
> > allowance plan that we have to learn about budgeting and saving, and what
> > money means in society.
>

> >>>"Have to learn" is a good phrase to examine. It's rooted in the idea
> that people won't learn the *right* things on their own. When you step away
> from have tos and clandestine teaching tools, kids still learn about the
> world. Kids given money freely, no strings attached, still learn about
> budgets and "the value of money". <<<
>
Sorry for the poor grammar and phrasing, It should have been, "We have used
our allowance plan to teach about budgeting and saving and what money means
in society. There is no "have to", but a vague hope that my children will
be better at managing money than their father and I. Their allowance is no
strings attached, they are given a task to complete with the money, which is
to save a certain amount. I guess that we could give them a lower amount
and just save for them, but it seems like a better idea that they get into
the habit of putting away money themselves for themselves. They can also
change when they save, so if they have a use for the money this pay, they
can put it away next pay.

My husband and I did not have good teaching or modeling about money
management and we did not learn on our own. We are still struggling to fix
the mistakes that we have made with our finances and develop good money
habits. The world does not give you a second chance with your credit
rating. The way that we are teaching our children is mainly by transparency
and honesty around our own finances. :P

>
> >>they almost never ask for frivolous
> > things
>
> >>>What's a frivolous thing? It's something to think about, not necessarily
> answer here. Pegging some interests as frivolous devalues a person's
> feelings. It's a way of shutting someone down when he or she expresses joy
> in small, simple pleasures. There's cultural baggage and a surprising amount
> of internalized sexism in the idea of "frivolous things". One of the very
> common complaints against unschooling as a philosophy is that it values
> frivolous things like joy over serious things like discipline. <<<<
>

By "frivolous" I mean something that is usually low cost, poorly made (and
so easily broken), and brings little joy. We value joy in this family. So
I have been know to buy a $1 pack of super bouncy balls to play with the
cats with. It brings the entire family joy--the two legged and four legged
folks. We also try to be sensitive to the amount of stuff we put into the
waste stream. We are great believers in small simple joys, like always
having small games on hand to play when waiting for something, somewhere.

My parents were often bemused and bewildered by the amount of money and
effort that we put into games of all sorts, the number of pets that we have
and the time that we spend on all of the above.

>
> > if it seems like a purchase that fits into our unschooling life or if
> > it seems like a really good idea for the household, then the adults pay
> for
> > it.
>
> >>But frivolous things like video games and lip-gloss Do, absolutely, fit
> into an unschooling life. So why not offer to buy those, too?<<<
>
Oh, we do and have bought those things, but there is also a point where the
money only goes so far and if it is something that is not necessary for life
and limb or we already have a bunch AND it is only used by one person, then
that person buys it for themselves.

> >>Lovliness and enjoyment *are* valuable additions to a household.<<<
>
We have NO shortage of loveliness and enjoyment in this household. Those
were only two examples of my children buying something for themselves that
they already have several of.

> >>>You're still thinking in terms of molding kids in a particular direction
> rather than supporting their interests with the understanding that learning
> Is happening. <<<
>
Again, supporting my children's interests can only go so far financially.
Isn't it better to allow them their own money to buy what they want, when
they want without asking me or my husband for it? They seem to love the
freedom to do so. My daughter loves to shop, I do not. I take her to the
mall to meet with her friends and I hang out in a coffee shop while they go
off shopping. We do go shopping together, but I am not as interested in
some fashions as my girl and her friends. If I see them buying something
that I feel is more of my responsibility (food, even junk food often falls
into this category, or with my daughter, clothing), then I offer to buy it.

> >>>You aren't trusting your kids to grow into thoughtful, responsible
> people without weighing their choices for them. You're valuing a kind of
> right answer over the process of thoughtful decision making. <<
>
Actually, at 13 and 15, they are very thoughtful, responsible people who
think and decide in a deliberative way, while still not being paralyzed by
any fear of making the wrong decision. And yes, I have shared my values
with my children. They are amazing kids with their own views and values.
Believe me, they are their own person.

>
> >>And it seems like your kids have figured out how to give you the kind of
> answers you want. That's not a terrible thing, but you're describing a kind
> of teaching, of setting up "life lessons" rather than striving to be your
> kids' partner in discovery.
>
> ---Meredith<<<
>
Actually, they will both tell me that they know what I want them
say/do/decide and then they tell me what they are going to do. I get to be
open and honest in my opinions with my kids, just like they get to tell me
what they think about something. One of the things that I am proudest of is
that my kids will both look me and/or their father in the eye and disagree
with us in fairly respectful but firm tones.

As for setting up life lessons... well no, not really. I will communicate
expectations around certain tasks, like household things. I will make
suggestions about certain things, like how to plan and save. We have some
very basic rules in the house that apply to everybody. We are all capable
of keeping the house clean and happy to be in and we are all expected to
contribute to that goal. We all have a responsibility to save and plan for
the future financially, as per our development and age. We aren't setting
up things for the kids that we do not do for ourselves.

Everyone chooses the activity (I hate to say chore--it just makes a task
sound unpleasant) that they will do to keep the house livable. I do have to
remind some folks about their choices. Sometimes, I am reminded of mine.

Given their ages, they tend to go out and discover and then come back and
share now. I do the same. Sometimes we go out together and play and
discover. I have to admit to sometimes worrying that they could get hurt,
but I don't share that. I just say a quiet prayer and smile and wave as
they go off on their own.
Chris

>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Sorry for the poor grammar and phrasing, It should have been, "We have used
our allowance plan to teach about budgeting and saving and what money means
in society. There is no "have to", -=-

People's objection wasn't about grammar or phrasing. You very likely said exactly what you meant, which was that there were "have-to" style requirements, and they were of your own device.

If you are using anything in your lives specifically with the idea of "teaching," then unschooling will not work as well in your family as it could.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords

-=-There is no "have to", but a vague hope that my children will
be better at managing money than their father and I-=-

When children aren't given them the opportunity to succeed or fail on their own, they might resent restriction, which could make them behave in a reactionary way. Practicing with small amounts of money is wonderful. Practicing choices in minor situations gives kids years of decision-making help before they're old enough to make larger, more life-and-death decisions.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- We also try to be sensitive to the amount of stuff we put into the
waste stream. We are great believers in small simple joys, like always
having small games on hand to play when waiting for something, somewhere.-=-

Please try to distinguish between the "we" that means "my husband and I" or "I" and the "we" that means your family. Your family is unlikely to have all the same sensitivities and beliefs, and it will make it more difficult for you to see and think about what you're doing (and to describe and share it with others on this list) if you're speaking for everyone as a group.

-=-As for setting up life lessons... well no, not really. I will communicate
expectations around certain tasks, like household things. I will make
suggestions about certain things, like how to plan and save. We have some
very basic rules in the house that apply to everybody. We are all capable
of keeping the house clean and happy to be in and we are all expected to
contribute to that goal. We all have a responsibility to save and plan for
the future financially, as per our development and age. We aren't setting
up things for the kids that we do not do for ourselves.-=-

You said lessons before, didn't you? (You did say "teach them...") I think you said chores.

-=-Everyone chooses the activity (I hate to say chore--it just makes a task
sound unpleasant) that they will do to keep the house livable. I do have to
remind some folks about their choices. Sometimes, I am reminded of mine.-=-

It doesn't matter whether you use the word "chore," if there are rules and charts and requirements and reminders and the inability to opt out.

-=- We have some very basic rules in the house that apply to everybody.-=-

http://sandradodd.com/rules

It's not a problem to have rules. It's legal, it's moral, most families want them and praise other families for having them.

In light of moving from a traditional, conservative, default way of living to a mindful unschooling way of living, though, it's important to look at rules, and where they come from and whether they can be replaced with non-arbitrary ways of making decisions.

Sandra







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

>>and are asked to save half

of what they get (and my husband and I match their savings). <<

That seems an odd instructional tool approach to money. Why aren't you just
putting the money that you want them to save in a savings account. Every two
weeks, 3 times their ages in savings from you and 1.5 times their ages as
allowance. If you are making them do something (you aren't asking, right? you
are requiring) it seems better just to take that hurdle out of the picture and
tuck the savings directly in the bank, or however you work it.


Schuyler


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

>>My husband and I did not have good teaching or modeling about money
management and we did not learn on our own. We are still struggling to fix
the mistakes that we have made with our finances and develop good money
habits. The world does not give you a second chance with your credit
rating. The way that we are teaching our children is mainly by transparency
and honesty around our own finances. :P<<

First, teaching is a term that can bite you in the butt. You may be teaching one
thing, but the learning that is going on may be entirely different. Teaching is
a fascinating word, it is an action that only successfully occurs when someone
else plays their role properly. I'm not phrasing that well.
http://www.sandradodd.com/teaching/ is such a wonderful series of understandings
about the word teach versus learn.

It also paints a picture of the role expectations play in unschooling. Or, maybe
how your expectations are often completely irrelevant in unschooling. Learning
happens all the time and it's really hard to frame, to pin down, to limit, to
focus. Learning is this vast series of connections that begin and grow and grow
with bits and pieces coming together in ways that can sometimes completely
change the view. But those connections, that learning is all internal. It isn't
moderator driven, it isn't taught. It's one of the real problems that schools
suffer, they may be working to make sure that all of their pupils are "exposed"
to the same information, but they are in no way capable of ensuring that they
derive the same connections. Whatever you are teaching, your children may or may
not be learning.


The second thing is about money. I have discovered in my own life that I have a
needy relationship with gifts and goods. I want stuff. And I want stuff simply
because I believe that getting the stuff makes me better, more worthy, a good
and well loved person. Actually, that's not totally true. I used to feel that
way. So you can kind of past tense all that stuff.


I have a cardigan, or I had a cardigan, I cut it up to make other things with it
recently, but I had a sweater that I found at this little, posh, boutique shop
in Durham. David got a jumper that day and I really wanted this cardigan, or
something, to make it equal, or something. It was really cool colours, a rich
blue with fringes of multi-coloured yarn around the cuffs and collar. But it was
itchy and it was heavier than I tend to like cardigans. Almost immediately after
buying it and leaving the store, I realised that the value of that cardigan had
been inflated by own sense that I needed that cardigan. It wasn't a brilliant
cardigan, I never actually wore it very much. The jumper that David got, the
lovely soft wool turtleneck that he got, he wore out. But that cardigan was like
new when I cut it up to use in other things.


That cardigan became a cautionary tale cardigan for me. It helped me to see that
I wasn't really looking at the value of something in terms of it's usefulness,
or lastingness, instead I was looking at it through these needy, wanting to be
validated with presents kind of glasses. My birthday still gives me pause, my
need to be appreciated overwhelming me at the one time when gifts were possible
in my childhood. Although this year I had the most amazing birthday. Simon and
Linnaea get an allowance. They get an allowance because I wanted to not have my
nos be the last word on what they could get at a store or otherwise. I didn't
want the buck to stop with me. And without every being required to, they mostly
have money in their allowance bank (I write it on the calendar and subtract and
add to it there). This year they asked David to come upstairs and they said that
they wanted to buy a ukulele to give to me for my birthday. David covered half
of the cost and they used a fair chunk of their money to pay for the other bit.
It's a beautiful mahogany ukulele that sounds so sweet whenever I play it, no
matter how limited my playing is.


Simon and Linnaea make generous choices a lot of the time. They offer to buy
things for David or for me when we may be feeling the pinch of a month. And they
both amaze me with their discernment in shopping, with their lack of neediness.
I have offered both of them games and clothes and things when we are out and
they have both turned me down if it wasn't something that they really wanted. At
11 and 14 my need was so great, I would accept any gift, any offer of money from
my mom or dad or brother or grandparent or aunt or uncle. I would never have
thought of weighing and measuring the value of the purchase against the money
spent. But they both do. And they both err on the side of savings.


Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 24, 2011, at 5:57 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> If parents interact with children just as they interact with other
> humans, and choices and options are real and abundant, the child
> will be being himself rather than choosing a role.

Thanks for clearing that up :-)

Now I'm picturing a kid thumbing through the book for the family role-
playing game trying to decide what predefined character to play! ;-)

Joyce

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Sandra Dodd

I'm glad Schuyler wrote what she wrote about teaching. I know it seems like "just semantics" to people new to ideas about natural learning, but those who ignore the concept won't become good unschoolers. They can't and won't. I've never seen a good, longterm unschooler who clung to the idea of teaching. I've seen people say "that's just semantics" and wander away to buy a curriculum or to put their kids in school after a while.

-=- Learning happens all the time and it's really hard to frame, to pin down, to limit, to focus. -=-

It can't be firmly predicted and it can't be controlled.

-=-Learning is this vast series of connections that begin and grow and grow
with bits and pieces coming together in ways that can sometimes completely
change the view. But those connections, that learning is all internal.-=-

When I speak to a group (which I did three times this weekend), I know that each person there will take something different away. And if each person takes five things away, the chance that any two people will take the same five things is very small. And if someone takes the talk as a HUGE amount of inspiring information, that's because he or she was ripe to understand it. There were ideas, experiences and thought-hooks to hang all those stories and pithy inspirational phrases to. It shed light on a bunch of ideas they had already piled up. It fertilized seeds they already had in them.

When someone hears me and sits resistant, waiting for the proof that I'm wrong, that doesn't hurt me, and it doesn't hurt the other people in the room. I don't mind. I used to see it as a distraction, and then a challenge, but now I just think of those people as sad rocks in a fast-moving stream, who might have their hardness eroded a little bit, but that can't keep the ideas from flowing past and through other people in the room.

When I was teaching, I had a responsibility to the department, to the school, to the state, to the students, to their parents. I was required to be able to justify whatever I did within the state and district requirements for that subject at that grade level. I could do it, anytime of the day or night, but it was like having a net thrown over me. I was creative, still, but couldn't "reach" or inspire every student, for an array of reasons, few to do with me myself.

When I first spoke about unschooling I thought each presentation had to be complete, comprehensive, a proper overview, nothing important left out. I vaguely thought that if someone came there and then left without understanding unschooling, I would have failed. That's how I felt in 1996, when Kirby was nine years old and I spoke in Albuquerque a couple of times and California a couple of times. He turned ten before that last talk.

Now when I speak I know I could never say everything, and that I have a website to send people to if they want more, and the pressure is off of me to feel that one hour of sitting and listening needs to be IT for a person. It might be just frosting first and cake later, and that's fine. It might be I'm just giving them a really pretty plate that they like enough to hold on to until they get to the buffet. It might be I'm talking to them about sleep, and telling them an inspiring bedtime story so they can go elsewhere to sleep and dream and wake up with new thoughts and attitudes.

If children are to learn from money, all they need is the money and some time to think about it, and some chances to spend it frivolously without the voiceover of parents, and to save and spend it wisely another time without the voiceover of parents then either. Give them the money and let them do what they want to with it. You don't know, you can't know, you don't need to know, what they will learn from that and what they will do with that. I'm speaking as an unschooler to unschoolers. Anyone who has read this far down and is thinking "yeah, but..." (which means "NO") then I guess you prefer control and teaching. No crime. It's just not cool to share that control-and-teaching advice and justification on the Always Learning list, because people come here to discuss unschooling with unschoolers.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-Now I'm picturing a kid thumbing through the book for the family role-
playing game trying to decide what predefined character to play! ;-)-=-

Maybe he could roll dice. Roll for a role. :-)

Maybe we could make some moms-roll-dice dice. Have things like patience and love and compassion and have them roll to see how much of each they will have that day. Engagement with children. Awareness.

I would hope they would reject the whole idea in favor of picturing themselves with high levels of all of those things.

Sandra

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dkjsv05

Still being fairly new to unschooling and coming from a very non materialistic,open ended, natural toys only background, I am truly enjoying this thread. My mind had been opened to see so much that I have done with my children as far as chores, allowances, and what might be considered things for learning. What I am having trouble on is if it is ever okay to draw the line?

My husband and I have been discussing this and he does not see toys as a learning necessity. Lately when we go to the store my girls and I have been cruising the different isles for me to get a better idea of what they find interesting( again something that had been off limits before). If we have the money they get what interests them, like right now my 5 year old is into Barbie, something they were not able to have previously. I do have (because of our budget)to set a limit to the funds they have available though. This however is not going over well with my husband. He does not like clutter and feels they already have more than enough toys( we have a very small house). He does not believe they should just get anything they want.

Please point me in the direction to better understand how to explain this to him.

Thanks in advance, Kim

Sandra Dodd

-=- What I am having trouble on is if it is ever okay to draw the line? -=-

What's not okay is to ask vague, unanswerable questions in cliche form. :-)

If we say "no" it's a stupid answer, and if we say "yes" we don't have any idea what "draw the line" picture you have in your head (if any).

Sometimes when people ask cliche questions, they don't know either.

People will ask "What about writing?" without knowing what they're thinking when they ask.

-=- Lately when we go to the store my girls and I have been cruising the different isles for me to get a better idea of what they find interesting( again something that had been off limits before). If we have the money they get what interests them, like right now my 5 year old is into Barbie, something they were not able to have previously. I do have (because of our budget)to set a limit to the funds they have available though. -=-

Don't cruise stores, then. Try to get an invite to a Discovery Toys party. Those who sell those know exactly what formal-language learning can be induced with each and every toy. Go to thrift stores. Ask on Craig's List or freecycle for Barbie stuff.

-=- He does not like clutter and feels they already have more than enough toys( we have a very small house). He does not believe they should just get anything they want.-=-

Separate clutter from "anything they want."
He's speaking in cliches too. Don't ask him to change. Do it yourself first, and maybe ask him what he means.

If he thinks unschooling is free, that's not a good way to consider it. If he thinks the house will be a tidy as if you had never had children, I hope he can afford a housekeeper. Unschooling is going to be at least as messy as a classroom. Maybe as messy as several classrooms.

-=-Please point me in the direction to better understand how to explain this to him. -=-

Explain it to him might not be the next move. You can back off of spending anything for a while, and let him have time to think. Take turns making a move, don't try to play the whole chessgame and checkmate him while he does nothing but say "I said I don't want to play."

Sandra



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