Santa Myth: Make-believe or believe?
Adam Dealan-de
I am so happy to see so much sharing on this topic! Thanks everyone!
I guess for me the question becomes if we stop lying to our kids about
Santa and all...do we destroy magic and as adults do WE really see (not
believe) or know that magic exists and what is magic? And do we have a
right to seek out the truth (experience) about magical things?
For me believing and lying about Santa is in the realm of religion.
Like believing and having faith that Jesus will deliver you to heaven.
I respect others right to have their religion, but I prefer and
encourage my kids to have theories and ideas and then test those ideas
to see and observe if they hold up to logic and experience.
Has magic been lost? No not really...in fact a more powerful reality is
coming forth. And greater questions and dreams are being born on a
stronger foundation. Like what is quantum physics, and paranormal
research teaching us? what can we learn from nature, the butterfly and
mystics?
I told my kids in a carefree fun way that we carry on the magic that St.
Nicholas showed. Parents leave the gifts at night. That it is the
children that start the dream by imagining what they wish and that what
they wish can come true in time. I agree with many of you that myths
and magical thinking should never be eliminated. Maybe combining that
with the truth of our experience and fantastical dreaming and open minds
will lead to worlds of thought never imagined.
Thanks all!
Adam
P.S. My little ones seem totally happy with what I told them. Yeah!
P.S.S. Still experiementing with unschooling and candy and video... :)
I guess for me the question becomes if we stop lying to our kids about
Santa and all...do we destroy magic and as adults do WE really see (not
believe) or know that magic exists and what is magic? And do we have a
right to seek out the truth (experience) about magical things?
For me believing and lying about Santa is in the realm of religion.
Like believing and having faith that Jesus will deliver you to heaven.
I respect others right to have their religion, but I prefer and
encourage my kids to have theories and ideas and then test those ideas
to see and observe if they hold up to logic and experience.
Has magic been lost? No not really...in fact a more powerful reality is
coming forth. And greater questions and dreams are being born on a
stronger foundation. Like what is quantum physics, and paranormal
research teaching us? what can we learn from nature, the butterfly and
mystics?
I told my kids in a carefree fun way that we carry on the magic that St.
Nicholas showed. Parents leave the gifts at night. That it is the
children that start the dream by imagining what they wish and that what
they wish can come true in time. I agree with many of you that myths
and magical thinking should never be eliminated. Maybe combining that
with the truth of our experience and fantastical dreaming and open minds
will lead to worlds of thought never imagined.
Thanks all!
Adam
P.S. My little ones seem totally happy with what I told them. Yeah!
P.S.S. Still experiementing with unschooling and candy and video... :)
Sandra Dodd
-=-I guess for me the question becomes if we stop lying to our kids about
Santa and all...do we destroy magic and as adults do WE really see (not
believe) or know that magic exists and what is magic? And do we have a
right to seek out the truth (experience) about magical things?-=-
I still think this is too extreme and polarized. (The polarized express!)
Dualism is the enemy of mindfulness.
The choices are NOT "stop lying/keep lying."
It doesn't have to be about lying, or religion, or faith.
http://sandradodd.com/balance
-=-My little ones seem totally happy with what I told them. Yeah!-=-
I hope they won't feel the need to tell other kids what you told them. Please ask them not to. Another girl "told me the truth" in a mean and cruel way when I was seven years old, and I was at school. It was very hurtful. I still remember.
I hope you won't tell them they their choice is to lie or to "tell the truth."
Perhaps it would be good to ask them not to talk about it to other children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Santa and all...do we destroy magic and as adults do WE really see (not
believe) or know that magic exists and what is magic? And do we have a
right to seek out the truth (experience) about magical things?-=-
I still think this is too extreme and polarized. (The polarized express!)
Dualism is the enemy of mindfulness.
The choices are NOT "stop lying/keep lying."
It doesn't have to be about lying, or religion, or faith.
http://sandradodd.com/balance
-=-My little ones seem totally happy with what I told them. Yeah!-=-
I hope they won't feel the need to tell other kids what you told them. Please ask them not to. Another girl "told me the truth" in a mean and cruel way when I was seven years old, and I was at school. It was very hurtful. I still remember.
I hope you won't tell them they their choice is to lie or to "tell the truth."
Perhaps it would be good to ask them not to talk about it to other children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Santa is a story. And it's a very different story indeed to say he's a lie.
To me that story seems a bit beside the point, which is fun!
Karl is such a storyteller. He's way better at it than I am. I write them
down. When my phone died a few weeks ago, I forgot one of his stories were
on it. When Karl asked me the other night if we could write more on it, I
was more upset than *he* was about it being gone. He has always preferred
telling stories (dictating them as I typed them into my old PDA phone or on
my computer) to any storybook reading I might do. Writing more on his
stories has been a favorite pastime at night before getting to sleep.
It seems to me like some parents think their kids are not likely to be able
to incorporate myths into daily life very well. I guess I don't want to
imagine what our lives would be like without our continual stories. Today me
and Karl dressed up like ninjas, he in his Halloween costume and me in a red
blanket and a face mask. We decided to call ourselves The Contrivers,
thinkers before doers. I totally don't want to miss that! The truth can
wait.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To me that story seems a bit beside the point, which is fun!
Karl is such a storyteller. He's way better at it than I am. I write them
down. When my phone died a few weeks ago, I forgot one of his stories were
on it. When Karl asked me the other night if we could write more on it, I
was more upset than *he* was about it being gone. He has always preferred
telling stories (dictating them as I typed them into my old PDA phone or on
my computer) to any storybook reading I might do. Writing more on his
stories has been a favorite pastime at night before getting to sleep.
It seems to me like some parents think their kids are not likely to be able
to incorporate myths into daily life very well. I guess I don't want to
imagine what our lives would be like without our continual stories. Today me
and Karl dressed up like ninjas, he in his Halloween costume and me in a red
blanket and a face mask. We decided to call ourselves The Contrivers,
thinkers before doers. I totally don't want to miss that! The truth can
wait.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
otherstar
>>>>For me believing and lying about Santa is in the realm of religion. Like believing and having faith that Jesus will deliver you to heaven. I respect others right to have their religion, but I prefer andencourage my kids to have theories and ideas and then test those ideas to see and observe if they hold up to logic and experience.<<<<
When I was a kid, we always had presents and a big Christmas dinner. No matter how bad things were, we always had a Christmas. It defied logic from my point of view because my parents might be out of work and times were really tough. Even so, we still had a nice Christmas. My experience was that there had to be a Santa. I saw him at the malls. I saw him on all of the TV programs and movies. I knew that my parents couldn't be doing all of those things. I knew they didn't have the money. Even when I found out that it was my parents putting the presents under the tree, I still knew that there was more to the story that I wasn't getting. As I got much older, I found out how they always managed to give us a nice Christmas every year. I have an aunt (actually my mother's best friend from childhood) that always sent my mom money to make sure that us kids had a nice Christmas. Now that I am an adult, my aunt will send money directly to us kids to make sure that our kids have a nice Christmas. I have always referred to her as our personal Santa.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
> P.S.S. Still experiementing with unschooling and candy and
> video... :)
>
If you haven't checked out this page, take a look:
http://sandradodd.com/help
Robin B.
Andrea Catalano
There is one aspect if the Santa story that has not been mentioned directly and that is that some (many?) parents use Santa as a way to control children's behavior. I am referring to tales that santa only visits "good" children who go to sleep on time, and "behave," etc. I've heard a lot of coersion and out-right threats made by parents toward their children in the name if Santa.
To the original poster, if that has been part of the Santa story for your family I suggest you leave it out going forward.
Andrea
Sent from my iPhone
To the original poster, if that has been part of the Santa story for your family I suggest you leave it out going forward.
Andrea
Sent from my iPhone
Mirjam
This is so true!
When I find out about something new, I want to do it all, at once, now!
I've tried that with (radical) unschooling, but that didn't work. It was too much. So I was forced to do it step by step. Also for my husband's sake ;). And that works so much better! Step by step we're getting there.
Some area's are easier to let go than others. That will be different for every family/person.
Enjoy!
Groetjes, Mirjam :o), mv Adam (9), Boaz (6) en Levi (3).
http://www.leermeer.blogspot.com
When I find out about something new, I want to do it all, at once, now!
I've tried that with (radical) unschooling, but that didn't work. It was too much. So I was forced to do it step by step. Also for my husband's sake ;). And that works so much better! Step by step we're getting there.
Some area's are easier to let go than others. That will be different for every family/person.
Enjoy!
Groetjes, Mirjam :o), mv Adam (9), Boaz (6) en Levi (3).
http://www.leermeer.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > P.S.S. Still experiementing with unschooling and candy and
> > video... :)
> >
>
> "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
>
> If you haven't checked out this page, take a look:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/help
>
> Robin B.
>
Adam Dealan-de
Sandra wrote: I still think this is too extreme and polarized. (The
polarized express!)
Dualism is the enemy of mindfulness. The choices are NOT "stop
lying/keep lying."
It doesn't have to be about lying, or religion, or faith.
It is about lying or not lying and being rigid and instead pretending and
exploring Christmas without having my kids be duped.
Pretend games are about sharing and being "in" on it together.
Exploring Santa and Jesus and learning from their stories and celebrating.
Lying: To present false information with the intention of deceiving
Pretending: To represent fictitiously in play; make believe
I don't see this as dualism (antagonistic forces of good and evil). In
fact a deeper understanding of one's truth leads away from dualistic
points of view. Truth destroys dualism. Which is why I would rather
share my truth (in a soft and loving way when appropriate and
respectful!) and continue to play. Instead of lying to my kids and "you
better be GOOD" dualism. I and my kids love Santa.
Just like unschooling this has been an exploration in Love. Not about
setting rigid rules and truths and laws. There are many paths up the
mountain. :)
polarized express!)
Dualism is the enemy of mindfulness. The choices are NOT "stop
lying/keep lying."
It doesn't have to be about lying, or religion, or faith.
It is about lying or not lying and being rigid and instead pretending and
exploring Christmas without having my kids be duped.
Pretend games are about sharing and being "in" on it together.
Exploring Santa and Jesus and learning from their stories and celebrating.
Lying: To present false information with the intention of deceiving
Pretending: To represent fictitiously in play; make believe
I don't see this as dualism (antagonistic forces of good and evil). In
fact a deeper understanding of one's truth leads away from dualistic
points of view. Truth destroys dualism. Which is why I would rather
share my truth (in a soft and loving way when appropriate and
respectful!) and continue to play. Instead of lying to my kids and "you
better be GOOD" dualism. I and my kids love Santa.
Just like unschooling this has been an exploration in Love. Not about
setting rigid rules and truths and laws. There are many paths up the
mountain. :)
otherstar
>>>I don't see this as dualism (antagonistic forces of good and evil). In fact a deeper understanding of one's truth leads away from dualistic points of view. Truth destroys dualism. Which is why I would rather share my truth (in a soft and loving way when appropriate and respectful!) and continue to play. Instead of lying to my kids and "you better be GOOD" dualism.<<<<I must be missing something in this discussion. I always thought that unschooling was about helping your children find their own truth. If my child can provide logical arguments as to why they believe (or don't believe) in Santa, God, or their imaginary best friend, then I don't see a need to contradict them by sharing my truths. If you were to phrase it is as, "I would rather share my views or ideas in a soft and loving way," I don't think that I would have a problem with what you are saying. When you keep using the word "truth," I get the feeling that you are implying that you are correct and that any other way would be a lie. For me, the word "truth" implies something that is absolute.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It is about lying or not lying and being rigid and instead pretending and
exploring Christmas without having my kids be duped.-=-
My children were never "duped." That's a very strong word to use, if you're actually interested in exploring these ideas.
If your mind is made up and you've come here to persuade everyone else to "stop lying" to their children, that's different. But the purpose of the list is not to try to persuade longtime unschoolers that what they found to have worked peacefully couldn't actually have worked.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
-=-Lying: To present false information with the intention of deceiving-=-
You seem to be suggesting that allowing a child to believe something is equal to lying.
Many children believe that they might someday figure out how to fly. Many children believe that certain nighttime practices will protect them "magically"--covering up to the neck, if they're afraid, or using a night light, or (in my own case) closing closet doors.
Things like that might not be true "safeties" but the feeling of safety is a feeling; it's in the individual.
The feeling of magic and joy might be too. Some things that aren't objective, scientific truth are still enjoyable comforts to humans.
-=-I don't see this as dualism (antagonistic forces of good and evil). In
fact a deeper understanding of one's truth leads away from dualistic
points of view. Truth destroys dualism. -=-
The belief that there is one single truth IS dualism.
Balance balances dualism. Nothing can destroy dualism.
-=- I would rather
share my truth (in a soft and loving way when appropriate and
respectful!) and continue to play. Instead of lying to my kids and "you
better be GOOD" dualism. -=-
No one has recommended lying, and no one has recommended using Santa to threaten children. If that's inside you, that's where it is. One person even specifically warned against behavior control use of Santa stories.
If you have a negative wad of emotion about lying and threats, it might be better to untangle that inside your heart and soul and mind, than to untangle it outside where it affects your children unnecessarily.
-=-Just like unschooling this has been an exploration in Love. Not about
setting rigid rules and truths and laws. There are many paths up the
mountain. :)-=-
There is no mountain. There are relationships between parents and children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
exploring Christmas without having my kids be duped.-=-
My children were never "duped." That's a very strong word to use, if you're actually interested in exploring these ideas.
If your mind is made up and you've come here to persuade everyone else to "stop lying" to their children, that's different. But the purpose of the list is not to try to persuade longtime unschoolers that what they found to have worked peacefully couldn't actually have worked.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
-=-Lying: To present false information with the intention of deceiving-=-
You seem to be suggesting that allowing a child to believe something is equal to lying.
Many children believe that they might someday figure out how to fly. Many children believe that certain nighttime practices will protect them "magically"--covering up to the neck, if they're afraid, or using a night light, or (in my own case) closing closet doors.
Things like that might not be true "safeties" but the feeling of safety is a feeling; it's in the individual.
The feeling of magic and joy might be too. Some things that aren't objective, scientific truth are still enjoyable comforts to humans.
-=-I don't see this as dualism (antagonistic forces of good and evil). In
fact a deeper understanding of one's truth leads away from dualistic
points of view. Truth destroys dualism. -=-
The belief that there is one single truth IS dualism.
Balance balances dualism. Nothing can destroy dualism.
-=- I would rather
share my truth (in a soft and loving way when appropriate and
respectful!) and continue to play. Instead of lying to my kids and "you
better be GOOD" dualism. -=-
No one has recommended lying, and no one has recommended using Santa to threaten children. If that's inside you, that's where it is. One person even specifically warned against behavior control use of Santa stories.
If you have a negative wad of emotion about lying and threats, it might be better to untangle that inside your heart and soul and mind, than to untangle it outside where it affects your children unnecessarily.
-=-Just like unschooling this has been an exploration in Love. Not about
setting rigid rules and truths and laws. There are many paths up the
mountain. :)-=-
There is no mountain. There are relationships between parents and children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>Pretend games are about sharing and being "in" on it together.<<<They can be. But that's not guaranteed. It's great when our children
see us as friends.
People who live their whole lives together disagree about things
sometimes. Not focusing on the disagreements means children can form
their own ideas about the world around them.
The underlying principle in holding Santa and Jesus over children's
heads to threaten and cajol is ultimately about parents not accepting
their children having their own ideas! In the first place! Otherwise
there would be no manipulating with stories as though they're
realities.
That's like taking a person's experience of life away from them and
replacing it with a counterfeit experience that doesn't and never will
really be the child's idea until they let go of their own ideas and
take on what others tell them as Truth. I read books my parents had
not read about feminism, witches, magic, all sorts of things. They had
no idea what the books were about because either they didn't know I
had them or didn't know what the books were about and couldn't tell by
looking at the titles. I went to school and to the school library
where there were lots of books my parents would never have chosen for
me to read. I read many books while in the library without checking
them out. I also checked out books that stayed in a backpack or a
locker.
The same exact thing can happen in a non-religious household when a
child secretly believes things work a certain way and doesn't want to
disagree with people s/he lives with, so outwardly will seem to agree
while giving him/herself time to test ideas about the world on their
own terms.
What's real and what isn't real isn't just about religion, in my
experience. And the same may be true in our children's experience.
Their experience of religion might very well be different from our
own. One of the most rewarding parts of unschooling can be knowing
that our children's experiences will be somewhat different from ours
as parents and celebrating some aspects in those differences.
Correcting and healing the mistakes and mishaps of our own childhoods
doesn't come through our children's childhoods but but in changes of
how we live our own lives.
~Katherine
Adam Dealan-de
Connie wrote: "When you keep using the word "truth," I get the feeling
that you are implying that you are correct and that any other way would
be a lie. For me, the word "truth" implies something that is absolute."
No, I am not saying that I am correct and any other way is a lie. Truth
is relative to each individual. I don't want to perpetuate something
that is I know to be false for me.
Sandra wrote: If your mind is made up and you've come here to persuade
everyone else to "stop lying" to their children, that's different. But
the purpose of the list is not to try to persuade longtime unschoolers
that what they found to have worked peacefully couldn't actually have
worked.
Not at all Sandra. I am exploring this and finding what can work best
as an unschooler. I am sharing my thoughts. Not trying to prove anyone
on this list wrong. I respect everyone here regardless of religious
beliefs or whatever. I don't think that I have been negative in my
past posts or tried to disprove unschooling.
Sandra wrote: You seem to be suggesting that allowing a child to believe
something is equal to lying.
No. I am suggesting the difference between lying to a child verses
sharing in make-believe. I think it is about the underlying intent of
the parent.
Sandra: The feeling of magic and joy might be too. Some things that
aren't objective, scientific truth are still enjoyable comforts to humans.
I agree. I just don't want to intentional deceive or manipulate my kids
for my own emotional benefit.
Sandra: The belief that there is one single truth IS dualism. Balance
balances dualism. Nothing can destroy dualism.
I am not saying their is one single truth but multitude of truths
(infinite and multidimentional really). Maybe destroy is
inaccurate...more neutralizes (balances?).
-=- I would rather
share my truth (in a soft and loving way when appropriate and
respectful!) and continue to play. Instead of lying to my kids and "you
better be GOOD" dualism. -=-
Sandra wrote: No one has recommended lying, and no one has recommended
using Santa to threaten children. If that's inside you, that's where it
is. One person even specifically warned against behavior control use of
Santa stories. If you have a negative wad of emotion about lying and
threats, it might be better to untangle that inside your heart and soul
and mind, than to untangle it outside where it affects your children
unnecessarily.
Some have stated that they would continue to not tell their children the
truth when asked by their children. Which is fine with me. That is
their choice. I am fine with that. I don't wish to do this and have
been exploring how with this list. I have enjoyed the feedback and I am
not trying to tell anyone here how they should handle this issue. I
don't have a lad of emotion on this issue, I just don't care to lie to
my kids. Make-believe and play totally.
Sandra: There is no mountain. There are relationships between parents
and children.
There is a mountain in my metaphor. The mountain is a metaphor for
life's journey. And that everyone has their own path.
Katherine wrote: The underlying principle in holding Santa and Jesus
over children's
heads to threaten and cajol is ultimately about parents not accepting
their children having their own ideas! In the first place! Otherwise
there would be no manipulating with stories as though they're
realities.
I agree fully.
Adam
P.S. I fine unschooling to be very challenging and engaging. I find
this list to be very informative and stimulating.
that you are implying that you are correct and that any other way would
be a lie. For me, the word "truth" implies something that is absolute."
No, I am not saying that I am correct and any other way is a lie. Truth
is relative to each individual. I don't want to perpetuate something
that is I know to be false for me.
Sandra wrote: If your mind is made up and you've come here to persuade
everyone else to "stop lying" to their children, that's different. But
the purpose of the list is not to try to persuade longtime unschoolers
that what they found to have worked peacefully couldn't actually have
worked.
Not at all Sandra. I am exploring this and finding what can work best
as an unschooler. I am sharing my thoughts. Not trying to prove anyone
on this list wrong. I respect everyone here regardless of religious
beliefs or whatever. I don't think that I have been negative in my
past posts or tried to disprove unschooling.
Sandra wrote: You seem to be suggesting that allowing a child to believe
something is equal to lying.
No. I am suggesting the difference between lying to a child verses
sharing in make-believe. I think it is about the underlying intent of
the parent.
Sandra: The feeling of magic and joy might be too. Some things that
aren't objective, scientific truth are still enjoyable comforts to humans.
I agree. I just don't want to intentional deceive or manipulate my kids
for my own emotional benefit.
Sandra: The belief that there is one single truth IS dualism. Balance
balances dualism. Nothing can destroy dualism.
I am not saying their is one single truth but multitude of truths
(infinite and multidimentional really). Maybe destroy is
inaccurate...more neutralizes (balances?).
-=- I would rather
share my truth (in a soft and loving way when appropriate and
respectful!) and continue to play. Instead of lying to my kids and "you
better be GOOD" dualism. -=-
Sandra wrote: No one has recommended lying, and no one has recommended
using Santa to threaten children. If that's inside you, that's where it
is. One person even specifically warned against behavior control use of
Santa stories. If you have a negative wad of emotion about lying and
threats, it might be better to untangle that inside your heart and soul
and mind, than to untangle it outside where it affects your children
unnecessarily.
Some have stated that they would continue to not tell their children the
truth when asked by their children. Which is fine with me. That is
their choice. I am fine with that. I don't wish to do this and have
been exploring how with this list. I have enjoyed the feedback and I am
not trying to tell anyone here how they should handle this issue. I
don't have a lad of emotion on this issue, I just don't care to lie to
my kids. Make-believe and play totally.
Sandra: There is no mountain. There are relationships between parents
and children.
There is a mountain in my metaphor. The mountain is a metaphor for
life's journey. And that everyone has their own path.
Katherine wrote: The underlying principle in holding Santa and Jesus
over children's
heads to threaten and cajol is ultimately about parents not accepting
their children having their own ideas! In the first place! Otherwise
there would be no manipulating with stories as though they're
realities.
I agree fully.
Adam
P.S. I fine unschooling to be very challenging and engaging. I find
this list to be very informative and stimulating.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I respect everyone here regardless of religious
beliefs or whatever. I don't think that I have been negative in my
past posts or tried to disprove unschooling.-=-
When people don't think they're being negative and others try to point it out, it's intended to be clarifying and illuminating, to say "I don't know if you've noticed, but..."
-=-No. I am suggesting the difference between lying to a child verses
sharing in make-believe. I think it is about the underlying intent of
the parent.-=-
Again there's a false dichotomy.
The underlying intent of the parent when doing Santa things is probably much better and loftier than the underlying intent of a parent who decides to kill the whole game in the name of "truth." The intent to create happiness and magic over the intent to lay the whole magic show out as a sham of trickery.
-=-
I agree. I just don't want to intentional deceive or manipulate my kids
for my own emotional benefit.-=-
It seems you're disregarding the several stories of not lying and still playing the magical story out.
I hope you won't intentionally tell your children too much "truth" for your own emotional benefit.
-=-Some have stated that they would continue to not tell their children the
truth when asked by their children. Which is fine with me. That is
their choice. I am fine with that-=-
You're not fine with it. You can't relax about your whole lies vs. truth stance. You're SAYING "I respect everyone here," but your posts are not at all open to other possibilities. It's not a worthy goal to respect everyone anyway. Respecting *everyone* (sight unseen, thoughts unknown) is the same as respecting no one. Yes, I'm being picky. Yes, I want thoughtful clarity on the list whenever possible. No one has to write anything, but anything that's written and posted is fodder for the discussion.
-=-There is a mountain in my metaphor. The mountain is a metaphor for
life's journey. And that everyone has their own path.-=-
I understood your metaphor, but my objection was to the idea that it's a big job like climbing a mountain, or that it was a large, long journey. Unschooling happens in the moment, not in the future. Not all paths lead to a clearer understanding of unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
beliefs or whatever. I don't think that I have been negative in my
past posts or tried to disprove unschooling.-=-
When people don't think they're being negative and others try to point it out, it's intended to be clarifying and illuminating, to say "I don't know if you've noticed, but..."
-=-No. I am suggesting the difference between lying to a child verses
sharing in make-believe. I think it is about the underlying intent of
the parent.-=-
Again there's a false dichotomy.
The underlying intent of the parent when doing Santa things is probably much better and loftier than the underlying intent of a parent who decides to kill the whole game in the name of "truth." The intent to create happiness and magic over the intent to lay the whole magic show out as a sham of trickery.
-=-
I agree. I just don't want to intentional deceive or manipulate my kids
for my own emotional benefit.-=-
It seems you're disregarding the several stories of not lying and still playing the magical story out.
I hope you won't intentionally tell your children too much "truth" for your own emotional benefit.
-=-Some have stated that they would continue to not tell their children the
truth when asked by their children. Which is fine with me. That is
their choice. I am fine with that-=-
You're not fine with it. You can't relax about your whole lies vs. truth stance. You're SAYING "I respect everyone here," but your posts are not at all open to other possibilities. It's not a worthy goal to respect everyone anyway. Respecting *everyone* (sight unseen, thoughts unknown) is the same as respecting no one. Yes, I'm being picky. Yes, I want thoughtful clarity on the list whenever possible. No one has to write anything, but anything that's written and posted is fodder for the discussion.
-=-There is a mountain in my metaphor. The mountain is a metaphor for
life's journey. And that everyone has their own path.-=-
I understood your metaphor, but my objection was to the idea that it's a big job like climbing a mountain, or that it was a large, long journey. Unschooling happens in the moment, not in the future. Not all paths lead to a clearer understanding of unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 3, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Adam Dealan-de wrote:
beliefs. Your kids are yours to mold and shape into the form you
prefer them to have.
You may be *saying* no, not true, but you wrote the above idea that
puts your kids and other people in two separate categories to be
treated differently. Those are the glasses you're seeing situations
through and will color how you respond to them. And -- more important
to the purpose of the list -- colors the ideas you put on the list.
All parents, even the best meaning ones, have an idea of what they
want for their kids. The far extreme might be a Harvard educated
doctor. The other end might be happy. It's easy to see how molding a
child into a doctor is about the parent, not about the child. It's
less easy to see how wanting a child to be knowledgeable or logical or
informed about healthy eating or loving to read is not about the
child. It's very hard to see how wanting a child to be happy *can be*
not about the child also.
Those things sound like good things and things any caring parent would
want for their child. But for unschooling, it's not about what we want
them to have but about providing the rich, supportive environment for
them to discover and explore and figure out what *they* want to have.
It's about trusting that kids do want the good stuff. But it's also
about trusting kids to explore what they're drawn to to find what is
good *for them*.
It's hard when kids hold ideas that go against our values. We want to
help them skip over the "mistakes" and go right to the good stuff. But
the "mistakes" aren't mistakes. They will learn from all the paths
they take, whether they continue to follow them or veer off. There's
lots of learning that happens on the paths that get rejected, like a
deeper understanding of why it won't work for them. It's hard to see a
child exploring a religion the parent doesn't believe in. Hard if a
child of vegetarians explores meat eating (or vice versa). Hard if a
child decides not to go to college. Hard if a child loves exploring
anything the parents don't see value in (video games, music genres,
horror movies and so on)
As for the wanting kids to be happy, it will help someone turn toward
unschooling by thinking in terms of helping the child find their own
happiness. It's tempting to jolly a kid out of sadness. But sometimes
people need to be sad to work through something. Sympathy and
understanding are much better first thoughts than how to make the
child happy.
value for yourself. Use it when you're helping kids find solutions to
problems. But allow your kids to pick it up or not for their own use.
Allow them to explore and play with different approaches to puzzles
without steering them toward what you believe is the best approach.
Allow them to explore the pros and cons of all sorts of ideas and ways
of tackling problems. Allow them to find what works and doesn't work
*for them*.
(If they ask for help, a parent can say "Here's one way of doing
that ..." "Here's how I'd approach it ..." It's a good exercise for
unschooling muscles to let go of being positive that a parent knows
the right way or the right answer, even when you're sure you do! ;-) I
remember a mom wrote to ask how to correct a child when they're wrong.
There was a statue of (probably) a moose and the child called it a
deer. The mom feared the child might feel betrayed and lied to if the
mom agreed it was a deer and later the child found out it was a moose.
An approach that can help the child feel like a fellow explorer making
discoveries about the world rather than an empty vessel that needs
filled up with the right facts of life is to share what you believe
without implying the child needs to believe too. She could have said
"The thick antlers make me think it looks like a moose," while also
knowing it could be something she doesn't know about like an Irish Elk!)
Adults could be wrong about Santa. Maybe he does exist for some
families :-)
Atheists and religious alike could be wrong about Jesus and Allah and
Buddha and Ganesh.
The pre-Copernicus parents who told their kids the sun circled the
earth were absolutely positive they were right but were absolutely
positively wrong.
For unschooling it helps to let go of the idea of what we want for our
kids and what kind of people we want them to be. *And in place of
that* help them be who they are. *Trust* that if the values and
beliefs around them feel right for them, they'll try them out for
themselves.
Additionally, since unschooling is about the kids, we don't need to
make sure they understand what we believe. We shouldn't cast ourselves
in the role of experts but as helpers who have a storehouse of
knowledge and experience the kids can choose to tap into and turn over
and consider.
It's helpful to realize that we have special powers to influence what
kids believe and, if the goal is to help *them* find their own truths,
to use that power responsibly. So it's not a matter of "Yes, I
believe," or "No, I don't believe," or "Here's what really happens,"
but being sensitive to what journey the child is on. Which is why the
discussions here are so valuable to help parents shift their thinking
from their point of view to the child's.
Stronger?
In your opinion.
But unschooling isn't about you. Unschooling is not about moving kids
from where they are to where the parent believes it's best to be. It's
easy to see moving a child to be a nuclear physicist isn't about
unschooling. It's not so easy to see moving a child from childish
"wrong" notions of how the universe works to "right" adult ideas of
how the universe works is not unschooling.
Unschooling is about creating a supportive environment where they can
explore what they believe and grow new understanding as they go along.
It's about trusting they're thinking human beings who will pick up and
try the ideas that intrigue them. It's about trusting they can make
their own judgements about how well those ideas worked for them. It's
about trusting they won't always be the same and an idea that works
for their today self may not work for their tomorrow self and they'll
try something else.
Kids *will* explore and believe some ideas they will later reject.
It's part of the process of moving from where they are to where
they'll end up.
But if a parent has ideas about those they'd like to get into their
kids heads, they will do the unschooling atmosphere of their home a
favor by avoiding those until the parent can listen to his or her
children's ideas without feeling a need to share their own.
Sharing is good! *Needing* to share will get in the way of unschooling.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I respect others right to have their religion, but I prefer andThis says your kids aren't others with the right to have their
> encourage my kids
beliefs. Your kids are yours to mold and shape into the form you
prefer them to have.
You may be *saying* no, not true, but you wrote the above idea that
puts your kids and other people in two separate categories to be
treated differently. Those are the glasses you're seeing situations
through and will color how you respond to them. And -- more important
to the purpose of the list -- colors the ideas you put on the list.
All parents, even the best meaning ones, have an idea of what they
want for their kids. The far extreme might be a Harvard educated
doctor. The other end might be happy. It's easy to see how molding a
child into a doctor is about the parent, not about the child. It's
less easy to see how wanting a child to be knowledgeable or logical or
informed about healthy eating or loving to read is not about the
child. It's very hard to see how wanting a child to be happy *can be*
not about the child also.
Those things sound like good things and things any caring parent would
want for their child. But for unschooling, it's not about what we want
them to have but about providing the rich, supportive environment for
them to discover and explore and figure out what *they* want to have.
It's about trusting that kids do want the good stuff. But it's also
about trusting kids to explore what they're drawn to to find what is
good *for them*.
It's hard when kids hold ideas that go against our values. We want to
help them skip over the "mistakes" and go right to the good stuff. But
the "mistakes" aren't mistakes. They will learn from all the paths
they take, whether they continue to follow them or veer off. There's
lots of learning that happens on the paths that get rejected, like a
deeper understanding of why it won't work for them. It's hard to see a
child exploring a religion the parent doesn't believe in. Hard if a
child of vegetarians explores meat eating (or vice versa). Hard if a
child decides not to go to college. Hard if a child loves exploring
anything the parents don't see value in (video games, music genres,
horror movies and so on)
As for the wanting kids to be happy, it will help someone turn toward
unschooling by thinking in terms of helping the child find their own
happiness. It's tempting to jolly a kid out of sadness. But sometimes
people need to be sad to work through something. Sympathy and
understanding are much better first thoughts than how to make the
child happy.
> but I prefer andHere's an unschooling tweak to that line of thought: Practice that
> encourage my kids to have theories and ideas and then test those ideas
> to see and observe if they hold up to logic and experience.
value for yourself. Use it when you're helping kids find solutions to
problems. But allow your kids to pick it up or not for their own use.
Allow them to explore and play with different approaches to puzzles
without steering them toward what you believe is the best approach.
Allow them to explore the pros and cons of all sorts of ideas and ways
of tackling problems. Allow them to find what works and doesn't work
*for them*.
(If they ask for help, a parent can say "Here's one way of doing
that ..." "Here's how I'd approach it ..." It's a good exercise for
unschooling muscles to let go of being positive that a parent knows
the right way or the right answer, even when you're sure you do! ;-) I
remember a mom wrote to ask how to correct a child when they're wrong.
There was a statue of (probably) a moose and the child called it a
deer. The mom feared the child might feel betrayed and lied to if the
mom agreed it was a deer and later the child found out it was a moose.
An approach that can help the child feel like a fellow explorer making
discoveries about the world rather than an empty vessel that needs
filled up with the right facts of life is to share what you believe
without implying the child needs to believe too. She could have said
"The thick antlers make me think it looks like a moose," while also
knowing it could be something she doesn't know about like an Irish Elk!)
Adults could be wrong about Santa. Maybe he does exist for some
families :-)
Atheists and religious alike could be wrong about Jesus and Allah and
Buddha and Ganesh.
The pre-Copernicus parents who told their kids the sun circled the
earth were absolutely positive they were right but were absolutely
positively wrong.
For unschooling it helps to let go of the idea of what we want for our
kids and what kind of people we want them to be. *And in place of
that* help them be who they are. *Trust* that if the values and
beliefs around them feel right for them, they'll try them out for
themselves.
Additionally, since unschooling is about the kids, we don't need to
make sure they understand what we believe. We shouldn't cast ourselves
in the role of experts but as helpers who have a storehouse of
knowledge and experience the kids can choose to tap into and turn over
and consider.
It's helpful to realize that we have special powers to influence what
kids believe and, if the goal is to help *them* find their own truths,
to use that power responsibly. So it's not a matter of "Yes, I
believe," or "No, I don't believe," or "Here's what really happens,"
but being sensitive to what journey the child is on. Which is why the
discussions here are so valuable to help parents shift their thinking
from their point of view to the child's.
> Has magic been lost? No not really...in fact a more powerful realityMore powerful?
> is
> coming forth.And greater questions and dreams are being born on a
> stronger foundation.
Stronger?
In your opinion.
But unschooling isn't about you. Unschooling is not about moving kids
from where they are to where the parent believes it's best to be. It's
easy to see moving a child to be a nuclear physicist isn't about
unschooling. It's not so easy to see moving a child from childish
"wrong" notions of how the universe works to "right" adult ideas of
how the universe works is not unschooling.
Unschooling is about creating a supportive environment where they can
explore what they believe and grow new understanding as they go along.
It's about trusting they're thinking human beings who will pick up and
try the ideas that intrigue them. It's about trusting they can make
their own judgements about how well those ideas worked for them. It's
about trusting they won't always be the same and an idea that works
for their today self may not work for their tomorrow self and they'll
try something else.
Kids *will* explore and believe some ideas they will later reject.
It's part of the process of moving from where they are to where
they'll end up.
> Like what is quantum physics, and paranormalSounds pretty!
> research teaching us? what can we learn from nature, the butterfly and
> mystics?
But if a parent has ideas about those they'd like to get into their
kids heads, they will do the unschooling atmosphere of their home a
favor by avoiding those until the parent can listen to his or her
children's ideas without feeling a need to share their own.
Sharing is good! *Needing* to share will get in the way of unschooling.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
otherstar
>>>No, I am not saying that I am correct and any other way is a lie. Truth is relative to each individual. I don't want to perpetuate something that is I know to be false for me.<<<<As a parent that embraces the principles of unschooling, I do perpetuate things that are false for me if it is something that my children want me to perpetuate.
Here is an example that has nothing to do with religion or Santa. My 6 year old has a fascination with ice cream trucks and she is always talking about what we are going to do if the ice cream truck comes. I have tried to gently tell her that the ice cream truck probably isn't going to come because it is the middle of December and we live in an area where we have only had an ice cream truck come by one time in the whole 7 years that we have lived here. She doesn't want to hear that. She wants to talk about what we are going to do if the ice cream truck comes. So, we talk about how we are going to catch it and what we are going to get. I try to remind her not to be disappointed if it doesn't show up today. Her response is always, "But what if it does come?" to which I always respond with, "We are going to catch it and buy ice cream and sit on the porch while we eat it." She doesn't want to know the facts about why it won't come. All she wants to know is that if it comes, I will buy ice cream. It isn't make believe or a game that we are playing. It is all very real to my daughter. It isn't about me and what I know to be true or false. It is about my daughter and what she wants to think and believe.
>>>I am suggesting the difference between lying to a child verses sharing in make-believe. I think it is about the underlying intent of the parent.<<<Claiming that a child believing in Santa or God or the ice cream truck is sharing in make believe isn't always a good idea. Some children take things very seriously and would be crushed if they thought that their parents didn't take them seriously. My 6 year old has a really big imagination. The things that I may think are make believe are very real to her. I have helped her kick a couple of imaginary butts. She had an imaginary friend that used to do mean stuff so I helped her set him straight. Was I perpetuating a lie by going along with her invisible friend? To dismiss her feelings by calling it a game of make believe isn't helpful in my opinion. It is dismissive of the child.
Intent is important but at the same time, the parent's intent doesn't always look at what the child wants or needs. A lot of bad things have been done with good intent. If your intent is not to perpetuate something that you know to be a falsehood, how does that benefit the child? I am not saying that anybody should deliberately lie to their children. I am just saying that sometimes it doesn't really matter what I think. What matters is what my children want and need. My 9 year old has a tendency to feel lied to if you don't tell her the whole truth. When she was little, she asked about where babies come from so I gave her an age appropriate answer. When she got older, I gave her more information. When I gave her more details, she indicated that she felt lied to because I didn't tell her everything when she was 3 or 4. I know this about her so I take that into consideration when I talk to her about things. Now, I know to tell her that I am not comfortable telling her everything about some things because I haven't yet figured out how to talk about it because of her age or the fact that I haven't done my research.
My 6 year old is the exact opposite. If I begin to tell her some things, she will tell me, "Mom, I don't want to know those things." Now, I know that I need to be very cautious about the information that I give her because she doesn't want to know the same kinds of things her sister does. With her, I feel like I leave out a lot of details to protect her from knowing more than she is comfortable with knowing. My 6 year old is also the same child that has decided to start going to church and absolutely loves it. Do I agree with everything that church she is going to teaches? No, I don't, but that doesn't matter. It is not up to me to tell her about all of the things that I disagree with about the church. She goes and she enjoys it. If she begins to ask questions, I will answer them without peppering the response with too much of my personal truths. I will try to phrase it as, "Some people believe" because I don't want her to feel judged by my difference in opinion (or personal truth).
>>>I just don't want to intentional deceive or manipulate my kids for my own emotional benefit.<<<<It doesn't matter whether or not you benefit emotionally. What matters is your children! It is not about you. How can you intentionally manipulate or deceive if you are following your child's lead? Manipulation and deception don't even enter the equation if the focus stays on the individual child.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
David Lewis
***It seems you're disregarding the several stories of not lying and still playing the magical story out.
I hope you won't intentionally tell your children too much "truth" for your own emotional benefit.***
We didn't tell Dylan the Santa story when he was little. At some point he heard about Santa elsewhere and asked us. I told him it was game people played at Christmas, told him how the game might have started and that some kids didn't know it was a game so he should just go along if his friends talked about Santa and not hurt their feelings by telling them it was pretend.
I did not start the Santa game at our house because I felt it would have been dishonest to tell my little kid there was this magic guy who brought toys. My mom wasn't always honest and I remembered how it felt to repeat something she'd told me and then find out it wasn't. I would have been really uncomfortable telling him there was a Santa or a Tooth Fairy or whatever. And I think he'd have been kind of disgusted when he found out it wasn't real.
I think Dylan would have felt duped. Other families are different. As Sandra often says, "it depends."
But I never said, "Santa's a lie."
If, after I'd told Dylan it was a kind of happy game people played at Christmas he had gone on to talk about Santa as if it was real, I would not have insisted it wasn't. I would not have hammered at the truth every time the subject of Santa came up. He knew the truth and if he'd decided to play something different I would have gone along and played too.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I hope you won't intentionally tell your children too much "truth" for your own emotional benefit.***
We didn't tell Dylan the Santa story when he was little. At some point he heard about Santa elsewhere and asked us. I told him it was game people played at Christmas, told him how the game might have started and that some kids didn't know it was a game so he should just go along if his friends talked about Santa and not hurt their feelings by telling them it was pretend.
I did not start the Santa game at our house because I felt it would have been dishonest to tell my little kid there was this magic guy who brought toys. My mom wasn't always honest and I remembered how it felt to repeat something she'd told me and then find out it wasn't. I would have been really uncomfortable telling him there was a Santa or a Tooth Fairy or whatever. And I think he'd have been kind of disgusted when he found out it wasn't real.
I think Dylan would have felt duped. Other families are different. As Sandra often says, "it depends."
But I never said, "Santa's a lie."
If, after I'd told Dylan it was a kind of happy game people played at Christmas he had gone on to talk about Santa as if it was real, I would not have insisted it wasn't. I would not have hammered at the truth every time the subject of Santa came up. He knew the truth and if he'd decided to play something different I would have gone along and played too.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>I prefer and encourage my kids to have theories and ideas and then test those ideas to see and observe if they hold up to logic and experience.<<<Tweak the thinking above in order to get closer to the unschooling
idea. Say it something like this:
I trust my kids to have theories and ideas and then test those ideas
to see and observe if they hold up in accordance to my kids' various
and ever-changing levels of development, logic and experience.
Because that's IS what they're doing and the parent who doesn't yet
trust the nature of how learning takes place can learn more about how
anyone and everyone learns, in time. You don't want to directly do the
thinking for your children in order to make learning take place in
your children's heads. You don't want to tell them how their own
thinking can take place best. They are formulating it for themselves
already, right now, because they were born to think and learn and
experience and breathe and live and make and do.
Here's a great way to see your own unschooling process. It's to
nurture children like this:
*********************************
(This following is by Sandra)
"Each tree grows from a single seed, and when a tree is growing in
your yard what is the best thing you can do for it? You can nurture it
and protect it, but measuring it doesn’t make it grow faster. Pulling
it up to see how the roots are doing has never helped a tree a bit.
What helps is keeping animals from eating it or scratching its bark,
making sure it has water, good soil, shade when it needs it and sun
when it needs it, and letting its own growth unfold peacefully. It
takes years, and you can’t rush it."
"So it is with children. They need to be protected from physical and
emotional harm. They need to have positive regard, food, shade and
sun, things to see, hear, smell, taste and touch. They need someone to
answer their questions and show them the world, which is as new to
them as it was to us. Their growth can’t be rushed, but it can be
enriched."
The writing enclosed in asterisks from http://sandradodd.com/thoughts
*********************************
The key phrase there is "growth can't be rushed" no matter how we
might like to tamper with it to make it change course or inject it
with pre-fabbed germinators of our own, which were probably pre-fabbed
when we were injected with them at school.
I like to have in depth involved projects going all the time. If
you're a parent who has made projects out of your children's
developing world view, please find things to do rather than putting
your need for project-energy into your children.
And by the way, if you do get engaged in your own things to do, your
children will see that as an idea of how they too could choose to
learn or live or be, if it is their preference to be project-oriented.
I'm like that. And I understand the need for projects.
I did myself, my sanity and Karl a huge favor by deciding to avoid
making Karl into a comfy years-long project, since the temptation is
that I might believe my abiding care would have meant that I could do
it the most justice. But that premise would leave out the primary fact
-- Karl's life is his very own and he has his own ideas about that
life. He let me know that from very early on when he was still an
infant.
~Katherine
David Lewis
***You're not fine with it. You can't relax about your whole lies vs. truth stance.***
I understand this. Maybe because I was really embarrassed a couple of times when I believed my mom about something and then found out it wasn't the truth. It made me trust her less and less as time went on. I really wanted to be a trustworthy mom. I didn't want Dylan feeling embarrassed and humiliated if he repeated something I said was truth and someone told him it wasn't. I didn't want him to think of my as a liar. I didn't want him to have to go to someone else to find the truth.
Other people probably have healthier psychology. <g>
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I understand this. Maybe because I was really embarrassed a couple of times when I believed my mom about something and then found out it wasn't the truth. It made me trust her less and less as time went on. I really wanted to be a trustworthy mom. I didn't want Dylan feeling embarrassed and humiliated if he repeated something I said was truth and someone told him it wasn't. I didn't want him to think of my as a liar. I didn't want him to have to go to someone else to find the truth.
Other people probably have healthier psychology. <g>
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen James
Joyce: But for unschooling, it's not about what we want
them to have but about providing the rich, supportive environment for
them to discover and explore and figure out what *they* want to have.
My husband and I avoided Santa as long as we could, but our son discovered
him around the age of 3 and fell in love with the idea. We embraced this.
He is now 8. Recently, while we were at a coffee shop, he smiled, while
looking off in another direction, and said to himself: "That boy believes in
Santa too." When I asked him what he had just seen, he said he had
witnessed a boy pick up a sleigh ornament and exclaim, "Look, it's Santa's
sleigh." Then he smiled again, this time at Doug and I, and said "It's
magic." We left it at that.
It isn't about what we believe, or what we want Ethan to believe. Both Doug
and I are not particularly excited about the commercial aspect of Santa,
which was initially why we resisted the story, but our son found Santa and
he loves him, and that is beautiful in our eyes.
Karen.
jamesfamilyedutrip.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
them to have but about providing the rich, supportive environment for
them to discover and explore and figure out what *they* want to have.
My husband and I avoided Santa as long as we could, but our son discovered
him around the age of 3 and fell in love with the idea. We embraced this.
He is now 8. Recently, while we were at a coffee shop, he smiled, while
looking off in another direction, and said to himself: "That boy believes in
Santa too." When I asked him what he had just seen, he said he had
witnessed a boy pick up a sleigh ornament and exclaim, "Look, it's Santa's
sleigh." Then he smiled again, this time at Doug and I, and said "It's
magic." We left it at that.
It isn't about what we believe, or what we want Ethan to believe. Both Doug
and I are not particularly excited about the commercial aspect of Santa,
which was initially why we resisted the story, but our son found Santa and
he loves him, and that is beautiful in our eyes.
Karen.
jamesfamilyedutrip.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Deb, that's exactly how it went for us. We didn't tell Karl the Santa
story but he learned it from other kids. And saying it's a "game" is
how we described it. The game parlance comes from the fact that Karl
plays lots of vidgames, so it was an easy quick analogy on Santa. That
happened when he was 4.
He wanted to play the Santa game and so we did. Since we typically
travel more consistently during winter holidays, extended family have
baked birthday cakes and given gifts on his half-birthday which falls
in mid-January actually but is celebrated late in December or near the
New Year to coincide with family visits and celebrations. He has had
Santa gifts simultaneously with birthday gifts.
In considering how to interact with our children, it's possible to see
things as a glass half-full or glass half-empty. It's also possible to
see it as a life of more or a life of less. For unschooling, seeing
the glass full to overflowing with a life of more can make it amazing
and memorable for the children and the parents. Opt for abundance.
Include as much as you can, seriously or playfully? No both seriously
and playfully along with many other outlooks.
One of my own personal discoveries during the deschooling process was
that growing up with ideas about opposites, which are preset notions,
meant that my understanding of emotion could be very truncated at
times. Becoming more emotionally fluent meant that I acknowledged more
ideas about feelings other than just happy or sad; happy or angry.
It's possible to be happy and sad at the same time. (Oh.) It's
possible to be neither happy nor sad nor angry. (Well duh me.) It's
possible to feel rather nonchalant or a bit ambiguous or whatever. Who
did I learn that from? Karl. It was one of our many discussions and
it's been so long ago, I don't remember exactly how it went but it was
pretty amazing. He did most of the talking and explaining to me. I
learned from him.
Unschooling is like that. You may at some point realize that you can
learn from your own kids. And that the whole Santa myth (any myth
really) is totally saturated with learning possibilities for yourself
as well as your children.
Unschooling = learning together = pretty good equation
~Katherine
story but he learned it from other kids. And saying it's a "game" is
how we described it. The game parlance comes from the fact that Karl
plays lots of vidgames, so it was an easy quick analogy on Santa. That
happened when he was 4.
He wanted to play the Santa game and so we did. Since we typically
travel more consistently during winter holidays, extended family have
baked birthday cakes and given gifts on his half-birthday which falls
in mid-January actually but is celebrated late in December or near the
New Year to coincide with family visits and celebrations. He has had
Santa gifts simultaneously with birthday gifts.
In considering how to interact with our children, it's possible to see
things as a glass half-full or glass half-empty. It's also possible to
see it as a life of more or a life of less. For unschooling, seeing
the glass full to overflowing with a life of more can make it amazing
and memorable for the children and the parents. Opt for abundance.
Include as much as you can, seriously or playfully? No both seriously
and playfully along with many other outlooks.
One of my own personal discoveries during the deschooling process was
that growing up with ideas about opposites, which are preset notions,
meant that my understanding of emotion could be very truncated at
times. Becoming more emotionally fluent meant that I acknowledged more
ideas about feelings other than just happy or sad; happy or angry.
It's possible to be happy and sad at the same time. (Oh.) It's
possible to be neither happy nor sad nor angry. (Well duh me.) It's
possible to feel rather nonchalant or a bit ambiguous or whatever. Who
did I learn that from? Karl. It was one of our many discussions and
it's been so long ago, I don't remember exactly how it went but it was
pretty amazing. He did most of the talking and explaining to me. I
learned from him.
Unschooling is like that. You may at some point realize that you can
learn from your own kids. And that the whole Santa myth (any myth
really) is totally saturated with learning possibilities for yourself
as well as your children.
Unschooling = learning together = pretty good equation
~Katherine
David Lewis
***repeat something she'd told me and then find out it wasn't. ***
Wasn't true.
I can't imagine how I might have told Dylan about Santa when he was little, put presents under the tree and pretended they were from Santa, and then explain why, later, when he knew the truth. Knowing (now) how he was when he got older, knowing his personality, I can't see how it would have been ok with him. But I know people who have done it happily and whose children really enjoyed the magic of Santa and didn't feel duped later on. They have some special skill I don't have. <g>
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wasn't true.
I can't imagine how I might have told Dylan about Santa when he was little, put presents under the tree and pretended they were from Santa, and then explain why, later, when he knew the truth. Knowing (now) how he was when he got older, knowing his personality, I can't see how it would have been ok with him. But I know people who have done it happily and whose children really enjoyed the magic of Santa and didn't feel duped later on. They have some special skill I don't have. <g>
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lalow
When my oldest was 4 he loved to play Santa Claus. He colored a Santa and a bunch of reindeer that he had me print off and taped them all together and then he would have me and his brother (who was 3) pretend to go to sleep and he would run through the house with the pictures and bang around going ho ho ho. he would wrap up toys and put them next to us and yell, "wake up". It was so funny and would go on until I couldnt stand it any longer and would distract him with hot chocolate or something.
Jill Parmer
On Dec 5, 2010, at 12:40 PM, David Lewis wrote:
children and not doing things that disturb them.
I just asked Addi (16) what she remembers as a kid about Santa. She
said she imagined him bringing presents, but not coming down our
chimney, which is a gas stove pipe, leading to a locked glassed in
stove. As she got older she realized no one ever saw Santa, and
seemed to think of him as any other character she saw in movies and
heard in stories, this cool idea that stays in imagination.
When she was about 8 she did ask me if Santa was real or not, I asked
her if she was ok if the answer was yes, or no. If she had said no,
then I was going to say that she shouldn't ask that question yet. At
8, she was fine with blunt questions and thinking about different
possible answers/outcomes, other kids might still be to young for
that, depends on the kid.
She did say that Santas in malls or other santa's workshop places
were creepy.
There is an old guy with a fat belly and bright white hair and a long
beard that we see every now and again walking in the summer time
around our neighborhood, and every time we see him we cheer "Santa!"
quietly amongst ourselves. We're kinda goofy that way.
Neither Steve nor I pushed the Santa Claus idea or avoided it.
~Jill P
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But I know people who have done it happily and whose childrenI don't think it's a special skill. I think it's about knowing your
> really enjoyed the magic of Santa and didn't feel duped later on.
> They have some special skill I don't have.
children and not doing things that disturb them.
I just asked Addi (16) what she remembers as a kid about Santa. She
said she imagined him bringing presents, but not coming down our
chimney, which is a gas stove pipe, leading to a locked glassed in
stove. As she got older she realized no one ever saw Santa, and
seemed to think of him as any other character she saw in movies and
heard in stories, this cool idea that stays in imagination.
When she was about 8 she did ask me if Santa was real or not, I asked
her if she was ok if the answer was yes, or no. If she had said no,
then I was going to say that she shouldn't ask that question yet. At
8, she was fine with blunt questions and thinking about different
possible answers/outcomes, other kids might still be to young for
that, depends on the kid.
She did say that Santas in malls or other santa's workshop places
were creepy.
There is an old guy with a fat belly and bright white hair and a long
beard that we see every now and again walking in the summer time
around our neighborhood, and every time we see him we cheer "Santa!"
quietly amongst ourselves. We're kinda goofy that way.
Neither Steve nor I pushed the Santa Claus idea or avoided it.
~Jill P
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Adam Dealan-de
Sandra wrote: When people don't think they're being negative and others
try to point it out, it's intended to be clarifying and illuminating, to
say "I don't know if you've noticed, but..."
The underlying intent of the parent when doing Santa things is probably
much better and loftier than the underlying intent of a parent who
decides to kill the whole game in the name of "truth." The intent to
create happiness and magic over the intent to lay the whole magic show
out as a sham of trickery.
Did I miss something? Am I being negative? I didn't think so but I am
open to see where. I never said to "kill" the whole game or to lay the
whole magic show out as a sham of trickery.
Sandra: It seems you're disregarding the several stories of not lying
and still playing the magical story out.
I hope you won't intentionally tell your children too much "truth" for
your own emotional benefit.
I am not disregarding the several stories of not lying. I found them
very valuable as I thought I pointed out earlier.
Sandra: You're not fine with it. You can't relax about your whole lies
vs. truth stance. You're SAYING "I respect everyone here," but your
posts are not at all open to other possibilities.
I am fine and I am open. Maybe I have not expressed that clearly. The
heart of my posts have been about how to gently and kindly be truthful
and still be magical. To this day I have never attacked another for
what they wish to do in this regard or tried to destroy the magic and
fun my children and others have around Santa. I have also heard stories
on this thread and elsewhere about the hurt and embarrassment felt by
children when they learn they have been deceived. How can we keep the
magic and play without lying? I am open to learn.
Sandra: It's not a worthy goal to respect everyone anyway. Respecting
*everyone* (sight unseen, thoughts unknown) is the same as respecting no
one. Yes, I'm being picky. Yes, I want thoughtful clarity on the list
whenever possible. No one has to write anything, but anything that's
written and posted is fodder for the discussion.
I agree and I love the debate. I think you can respect all people
without agreeing with them or their ideas. Holding others in high
esteem as human beings and their right to expression without assaulting
and attacking them physically or verbally is a lofty ideal to me.
Sandra wrote: understood your metaphor, but my objection was to the idea
that it's a big job like climbing a mountain, or that it was a large,
long journey. Unschooling happens in the moment, not in the future. Not
all paths lead to a clearer understanding of unschooling.
I agree that not all paths lead to an understanding of unschooling and
that unschooling happens in the moment.
Adam
try to point it out, it's intended to be clarifying and illuminating, to
say "I don't know if you've noticed, but..."
The underlying intent of the parent when doing Santa things is probably
much better and loftier than the underlying intent of a parent who
decides to kill the whole game in the name of "truth." The intent to
create happiness and magic over the intent to lay the whole magic show
out as a sham of trickery.
Did I miss something? Am I being negative? I didn't think so but I am
open to see where. I never said to "kill" the whole game or to lay the
whole magic show out as a sham of trickery.
Sandra: It seems you're disregarding the several stories of not lying
and still playing the magical story out.
I hope you won't intentionally tell your children too much "truth" for
your own emotional benefit.
I am not disregarding the several stories of not lying. I found them
very valuable as I thought I pointed out earlier.
Sandra: You're not fine with it. You can't relax about your whole lies
vs. truth stance. You're SAYING "I respect everyone here," but your
posts are not at all open to other possibilities.
I am fine and I am open. Maybe I have not expressed that clearly. The
heart of my posts have been about how to gently and kindly be truthful
and still be magical. To this day I have never attacked another for
what they wish to do in this regard or tried to destroy the magic and
fun my children and others have around Santa. I have also heard stories
on this thread and elsewhere about the hurt and embarrassment felt by
children when they learn they have been deceived. How can we keep the
magic and play without lying? I am open to learn.
Sandra: It's not a worthy goal to respect everyone anyway. Respecting
*everyone* (sight unseen, thoughts unknown) is the same as respecting no
one. Yes, I'm being picky. Yes, I want thoughtful clarity on the list
whenever possible. No one has to write anything, but anything that's
written and posted is fodder for the discussion.
I agree and I love the debate. I think you can respect all people
without agreeing with them or their ideas. Holding others in high
esteem as human beings and their right to expression without assaulting
and attacking them physically or verbally is a lofty ideal to me.
Sandra wrote: understood your metaphor, but my objection was to the idea
that it's a big job like climbing a mountain, or that it was a large,
long journey. Unschooling happens in the moment, not in the future. Not
all paths lead to a clearer understanding of unschooling.
I agree that not all paths lead to an understanding of unschooling and
that unschooling happens in the moment.
Adam
Adam Dealan-de
Joyce: This says your kids aren't others with the right to have their
beliefs. Your kids are yours to mold and shape into the form you
prefer them to have.
Not at all. My words were not accurate. What I am saying is that what
others choose to believe is their right as it is my childrens right.
But it is up to me as to how I interact with my kids. I do shape and
mold them even if unconsciously. By my choices and actions no matter
how allowing and unintrusive. My kids see what I like and what I
believe played out and and are affected by this. My kids are in a
separate category only in that they are so close and so influenced by me.
Joyce: All parents, even the best meaning ones, have an idea of what they
want for their kids. The far extreme might be a Harvard educated
doctor. The other end might be happy. It's easy to see how molding a
child into a doctor is about the parent, not about the child. It's
less easy to see how wanting a child to be knowledgeable or logical or
informed about healthy eating or loving to read is not about the
child. It's very hard to see how wanting a child to be happy *can be*
not about the child also.
This is very true for me. So how do we engage in Santa with this in
mind. That is my question. I can see for myself that engaging in the
Santa myth is about making the parent happy and playing out the parents
fantasy. And not about providing a rich and supportive environment for
them to discover and explore and figure out what they want to have (as
you wrote).
Joyce: It's about trusting they won't always be the same and an idea
that works
for their today self may not work for their tomorrow self and they'll
try something else.
I love and agree with so much of what you have wrote. But what about
when you children ask you with Santa really does exist or does Santa
leave those presents. I am not advocating that the world NEEDS to know
my truth about Santa. And preach to the word and try to break our
fantasies and fun. I am just trying to be honest and caring with my kids.
Joyce: But if a parent has ideas about those they'd like to get into their
kids heads, they will do the unschooling atmosphere of their home a
favor by avoiding those until the parent can listen to his or her
children's ideas without feeling a need to share their own.
I agree and do struggle with this. I really dislike Barbie but know
that my daughter loves to play Barbiegirl online and really loves this
world. And she is learning a ton by it.
beliefs. Your kids are yours to mold and shape into the form you
prefer them to have.
Not at all. My words were not accurate. What I am saying is that what
others choose to believe is their right as it is my childrens right.
But it is up to me as to how I interact with my kids. I do shape and
mold them even if unconsciously. By my choices and actions no matter
how allowing and unintrusive. My kids see what I like and what I
believe played out and and are affected by this. My kids are in a
separate category only in that they are so close and so influenced by me.
Joyce: All parents, even the best meaning ones, have an idea of what they
want for their kids. The far extreme might be a Harvard educated
doctor. The other end might be happy. It's easy to see how molding a
child into a doctor is about the parent, not about the child. It's
less easy to see how wanting a child to be knowledgeable or logical or
informed about healthy eating or loving to read is not about the
child. It's very hard to see how wanting a child to be happy *can be*
not about the child also.
This is very true for me. So how do we engage in Santa with this in
mind. That is my question. I can see for myself that engaging in the
Santa myth is about making the parent happy and playing out the parents
fantasy. And not about providing a rich and supportive environment for
them to discover and explore and figure out what they want to have (as
you wrote).
Joyce: It's about trusting they won't always be the same and an idea
that works
for their today self may not work for their tomorrow self and they'll
try something else.
I love and agree with so much of what you have wrote. But what about
when you children ask you with Santa really does exist or does Santa
leave those presents. I am not advocating that the world NEEDS to know
my truth about Santa. And preach to the word and try to break our
fantasies and fun. I am just trying to be honest and caring with my kids.
Joyce: But if a parent has ideas about those they'd like to get into their
kids heads, they will do the unschooling atmosphere of their home a
favor by avoiding those until the parent can listen to his or her
children's ideas without feeling a need to share their own.
I agree and do struggle with this. I really dislike Barbie but know
that my daughter loves to play Barbiegirl online and really loves this
world. And she is learning a ton by it.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Joyce: This says your kids aren't others with the right to have their
beliefs. Your kids are yours to mold and shape into the form you
prefer them to have.
-=-Not at all. My words were not accurate.-=-
Stop a minute.
"Not at all" suggests that Joyce's statement was incorrect.
"My words were not accurate" suggests that Joyce's statement was correct, but you want a re-do.
Before posting again, please consider the guidelines for this list, some of which are quoted below, and the rest of which can be seen at the links.
Posts for this list need to fulfill at least one of these criteria:
helps lots of people understand unschooling
asks a question that actually needs an answer
requests help seeing different aspects of a situation
helps people have more peaceful and joyful lives (helps lots of people on the list)
ALL posts should be
honest
proofread
sincere
clear
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
beliefs. Your kids are yours to mold and shape into the form you
prefer them to have.
-=-Not at all. My words were not accurate.-=-
Stop a minute.
"Not at all" suggests that Joyce's statement was incorrect.
"My words were not accurate" suggests that Joyce's statement was correct, but you want a re-do.
Before posting again, please consider the guidelines for this list, some of which are quoted below, and the rest of which can be seen at the links.
Posts for this list need to fulfill at least one of these criteria:
helps lots of people understand unschooling
asks a question that actually needs an answer
requests help seeing different aspects of a situation
helps people have more peaceful and joyful lives (helps lots of people on the list)
ALL posts should be
honest
proofread
sincere
clear
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dola dasgupta-banerji
I have a 9 year old daughter and when she was younger she believed in Santa.
And we live in India, so Santa comes through stories and movies. She is
starting to see the truth in many things. When she asked me about Santa and
other magical things, I say "perhaps" they do exist. Actually there is so
much in this universe that is beyond the understanding of this logical mind,
that I am never too certain to say "NO IT IS A LIE".
But then in India we have Hanuman, the monkey god. Ganesh the elephant god,
Durga with 10 hands, Krishna, the avatar of Vishnu, the one who danced onthe
three hooded kalia serpent, and the sun god and moon god and yet we have
scientists who are sending missions into the space, making nuclear power
plants and creating great art and music and literature. And all kids grow up
with these stories in India. So what do we know of myths and legends and
magical creatures!!
I would suggest "just take it easy". It is only Santa and he brings joy and
happiness. They are all just symbolic of the immense goodness, strength,
spirit, compassion and generousity that we as humans have.
Good luck.
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Adam Dealan-de <
adam@...> wrote:
And we live in India, so Santa comes through stories and movies. She is
starting to see the truth in many things. When she asked me about Santa and
other magical things, I say "perhaps" they do exist. Actually there is so
much in this universe that is beyond the understanding of this logical mind,
that I am never too certain to say "NO IT IS A LIE".
But then in India we have Hanuman, the monkey god. Ganesh the elephant god,
Durga with 10 hands, Krishna, the avatar of Vishnu, the one who danced onthe
three hooded kalia serpent, and the sun god and moon god and yet we have
scientists who are sending missions into the space, making nuclear power
plants and creating great art and music and literature. And all kids grow up
with these stories in India. So what do we know of myths and legends and
magical creatures!!
I would suggest "just take it easy". It is only Santa and he brings joy and
happiness. They are all just symbolic of the immense goodness, strength,
spirit, compassion and generousity that we as humans have.
Good luck.
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Adam Dealan-de <
adam@...> wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Joyce: This says your kids aren't others with the right to have their
> beliefs. Your kids are yours to mold and shape into the form you
> prefer them to have.
>
> Not at all. My words were not accurate. What I am saying is that what
> others choose to believe is their right as it is my childrens right.
> But it is up to me as to how I interact with my kids. I do shape and
> mold them even if unconsciously. By my choices and actions no matter
> how allowing and unintrusive. My kids see what I like and what I
> believe played out and and are affected by this. My kids are in a
> separate category only in that they are so close and so influenced by me.
>
> Joyce: All parents, even the best meaning ones, have an idea of what they
> want for their kids. The far extreme might be a Harvard educated
> doctor. The other end might be happy. It's easy to see how molding a
> child into a doctor is about the parent, not about the child. It's
> less easy to see how wanting a child to be knowledgeable or logical or
> informed about healthy eating or loving to read is not about the
> child. It's very hard to see how wanting a child to be happy *can be*
> not about the child also.
>
> This is very true for me. So how do we engage in Santa with this in
> mind. That is my question. I can see for myself that engaging in the
> Santa myth is about making the parent happy and playing out the parents
> fantasy. And not about providing a rich and supportive environment for
> them to discover and explore and figure out what they want to have (as
> you wrote).
>
> Joyce: It's about trusting they won't always be the same and an idea
> that works
> for their today self may not work for their tomorrow self and they'll
> try something else.
>
> I love and agree with so much of what you have wrote. But what about
> when you children ask you with Santa really does exist or does Santa
> leave those presents. I am not advocating that the world NEEDS to know
> my truth about Santa. And preach to the word and try to break our
> fantasies and fun. I am just trying to be honest and caring with my kids.
>
> Joyce: But if a parent has ideas about those they'd like to get into their
> kids heads, they will do the unschooling atmosphere of their home a
> favor by avoiding those until the parent can listen to his or her
> children's ideas without feeling a need to share their own.
>
> I agree and do struggle with this. I really dislike Barbie but know
> that my daughter loves to play Barbiegirl online and really loves this
> world. And she is learning a ton by it.
>
>
k
>>>I have also heard stories on this thread and elsewhere about the hurt and embarrassment felt bychildren when they learn they have been deceived. How can we keep the
magic and play without lying?<<<
How often do we lose the moment by formulating or decoding stuff about
the past and the future (usually our own past or future). For me, the
answer to that is "too often." I feel it's so important to think
things through.
But I have missed probably trillions of moments by doing that to excess.
How do you know your child would be bothered by the Santa myth? I
don't remember (and I don't need to know) if you have already told
the Santa story. If so, does it look to you that your child is
distressed by it? Has your child made comments or asked questions that
expressed disillusionment about the Santa myth?
Has your child expressed delight in Santa that you fear for? Who is
uncomfortable? This is not that far from the "binkie" thread, to my
way of thinking.
Is anything happening right now?
I remember when Karl was a lot younger, how it was totally helpful for
me to hear that I should prefer to look at my child over looking to
advice or asking for ideas about how to avoid stuff.
~Katherine
plaidpanties666
Adam Dealan-de <adam@...> wrote:
If playing Santa will make you feel good about christmas, play Santa. Dig into this long thread full of ideas for how you can make it playful, and then, most important of all, see what happens, see how your kids react. Are you afraid you'll go overboard and turn it into some giant drama? A "be good or no Santa?" sort of scenario? You can choose not to do that - to catch yourself and say "no, that's not what I mean, I'm being silly, my parents used to say that to me and its not true".
You can choose, each time, to keep your own focus on joy and wonder *and* what you see as the truth. This isn't a once-and-for-all thing. Whatever you decide this moment isn't set in stone!
If you're worried that playing Santa will somehow limit your child's world, look for other fun things to do around christmas and winter, too. Look for other sources of magic and make-believe, but also look to your child - what makes him light up with wonder? You may find that Santa is second best to saving icicles in the freezer, or making snow-angels, or making bird-feeders out of pinecones, or hunting for perfect round stones in a creek-bed. Santa, or his absence, won't make those things any less wonderful.
Have you read the book Playful Parenting? maybe that would help you have more fun without getting bogged down in wondering where "pretend" becomes "lying".
---Meredith
>I can see for myself that engaging in theAdam, I'm having a hard time understand your writing - do you mean that "engaging in the Santa myth" would make You happy and you're skeptical of that - afraid you'll prioritize your happiness over your child's?
> Santa myth is about making the parent happy and playing out the parents
> fantasy.
If playing Santa will make you feel good about christmas, play Santa. Dig into this long thread full of ideas for how you can make it playful, and then, most important of all, see what happens, see how your kids react. Are you afraid you'll go overboard and turn it into some giant drama? A "be good or no Santa?" sort of scenario? You can choose not to do that - to catch yourself and say "no, that's not what I mean, I'm being silly, my parents used to say that to me and its not true".
You can choose, each time, to keep your own focus on joy and wonder *and* what you see as the truth. This isn't a once-and-for-all thing. Whatever you decide this moment isn't set in stone!
>>And not about providing a rich and supportive environment forYou can go too far with that kind of thinking and see every book and story and toy as a limit you're placing on your child's mind. Look at the idea from another direction. Playing the Santa game doesn't prevent your child from playing other games, too. It doesn't necessarily make his world and thinking smaller. It can be just one thing about your family.
> them to discover and explore and figure out what they want to have (as
> you wrote).
If you're worried that playing Santa will somehow limit your child's world, look for other fun things to do around christmas and winter, too. Look for other sources of magic and make-believe, but also look to your child - what makes him light up with wonder? You may find that Santa is second best to saving icicles in the freezer, or making snow-angels, or making bird-feeders out of pinecones, or hunting for perfect round stones in a creek-bed. Santa, or his absence, won't make those things any less wonderful.
Have you read the book Playful Parenting? maybe that would help you have more fun without getting bogged down in wondering where "pretend" becomes "lying".
---Meredith
otherstar
>>>>This is very true for me. So how do we engage in Santa with this in mind. That is my question. I can see for myself that engaging in the Santa myth is about making the parent happy and playing out the parents fantasy. And not about providing a rich and supportive environment for them to discover and explore and figure out what they want to have (as you wrote).<<<<If I remember correctly, your children are 2 and 4. Have you always put out presents and told them that they were from Santa? A lot of people don't do it from day one without any problems. Are you asking if you should tell your children and stop putting out presents from Santa because you are getting a lot of joy and happiness out of it? Are your children happy with the way things are done now? Have your children actually asked you if Santa is real? Are you looking for answers based on what you think might happen with your children or are you asking because your children have actually asked you if Santa is real?
What kind of personality do your children have? Do they like to engage in pretend and make believe? Are your children focused on facts and figures?
Have your children shown any distress about Santa? Some kids find Santa creepy and scary. "He knows when you've been good, he knows when you've been bad, he sees you when you're sleeping, he sees when you're awake" sounds a bit like a stalker and might freak some kids out.
You don't have to answer any of these questions on list but they are things to think about when trying to figure out how to address Santa in your house.
>>>>I love and agree with so much of what you have wrote. But what about when you children ask you with Santa really does exist or does Santa leave those presents. I am not advocating that the world NEEDS to know my truth about Santa. And preach to the word and try to break our fantasies and fun. I am just trying to be honest and caring with my kids.<<<Have your children actually asked those questions yet? Have they shown any interest in knowing those questions? It is really hard to understand responses if you are asking about a purely hypothetical situation. I know from my own experience that I try to avoid reading and participating in threads about teenagers because most of it is completely foreign to me. I can't imagine what it will be like to be in the situations that are posed because my oldest is only 9. I read and gather tools and ideas because some of the things mentioned are beyond my comprehension at this moment in time. I soak up the information provided even if I don't agree with it right now because there have been a lot of times that I encounter a situation that has been discussed on the list and it is like a light bulb goes off.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]