finding balance regarding dental care
lisajceledon@...
I clicked on "new topic" and thought about how asking about caring for kids' teeth isn't a new topic.
I've done some searches on Sandra's site, and also tried to search here, but the search doesn't work the same as I remember, it wanted a message number, and I'm not sure how to search with words or topics anymore. I'm sorry if that has already been discussed and I missed it or forgot.
Yesterday my son Josh (6.5) had dental surgery and now has 8 crowns. He had an abscess a few weeks ago and was on antibiotics and since that dentist visit, I've noticed a lot of anxiety coming up about his dental care. He's gone a few years not ever wanting to brush his teeth. The dentists at his abscess appointment, and yesterday at the surgery center, were very firm about how serious his dental problems are --they hadn't felt serious before, he hasn't been to the dentist since he was 2, bc I couldn't see a lot of the problems, and he's very rarely (I mean, three times total) ever said he had any discomfort. But they did scare me quite a bit talking about it, and were firm that he has to brush twice a day even if I have to do it, and flossing, and never eating candy or sugary anything.
I have done a lot of reading and thought about those recommendations (which are not new to me) for the last few years, my youngest has had visible decay on his front teeth (and now most of the top teeth) since he was just over a year old. I know that the idea that caries are preventable with diet is false, and that I could choose to never let him ever have any candy or gatorade and he'd still have issues with his teeth-- everyone on both sides of his family has had a fair amount of work done on their teeth, even the ones who talk about sugar like it's an evil drug. I know people whose kids have had a lot of dental work, and are not allowed to eat candy except on special occasions, and only a little bit, and have to brush and floss and do all that.
I have not restricted Josh's diet, but since that visit, have felt a lot of fear around him eating the candy he likes. I've kept a lot of the fear to myself, and I followed up some of what the dentist told Josh about how candy feeds the bacteria and he shouldn't eat it, saying that yes it is true, but many foods feed the bacteria, and there are ways to take care of his mouth and still eat candy, and that his whole body is important to me, the teeth aren't the only important part (he was really sad and upset about being told he couldn't eat candy). He's talked a lot in the last few weeks about how he needs sugar, and feels starving for it sometimes (he's had an abundance of candy for most of his life, and hasn't had restrictions on it, and that 'starving' feeling is because he has real needs in his body and brain that candy meets really well, even when he has been offered (and eaten!) a lot of protein and fats and other kinds of carbohydrates, other kinds of sweet-but-not-candy foods. Right now, he's hungry a lot for candy! I do trust there is a good, real reason for that, and even if there wasn't, not creating lack is good enough reason. His happiness when he has good candy he loves is reason enough. He has lived in a house with candy and cookies and ice cream and will choose cauliflower and green beans because it's what he wants, even though he could choose candy or cookies instead.
I have read some cool stuff about how for past-toddlerhood young children, more calories are dedicated to brain growth than physical growth, and that easy-to-digest sugars are the best fuel for the brain. There is lots of good information about sugar I found again on Sandra's site (like that is has pain-reducing qualities!), so I am feeling better and more relaxed than I was even a few days ago about letting him have the candy he wants. I've stepped up offering him lots of protein options and fruits (now that lots of fruit is in season and it's easy to find good fruit! he and I both really don't like fruit that isn't ripe enough or that is overripe), so that I know he's choosing candy because it's what he wants, not because there aren't better options available.
He snacks a lot, and he and I share that too-- I need to eat protein regularly during the day and snack more than I eat meals. I've always preferred to eat that way, and I feel better when I do rather than when I try to eat bigger meals spaced further apart (which usually leaves me sleepy and cranky within an hour of eating!).
The dentist a few weeks ago told me he has to stop snacking between meals (which the dentist and nutrition counselor yesterday repeated), and that made me anxious too. Most of the time, I remembered to breathe first, when "no," was what I wanted to respond with, and found each time I did that, a yes would float up from a bright, soft place inside me, and then I would feel good about feeding him what he wanted, when he wanted it.
I was feeling tight though about insisting he rinse his mouth after everything he ate, and talked too much about his having an infection and it being important and serious and necessary to take better care of his teeth. After the first few days, I managed to turn that a little nicer, talk a lot less, and I got funny about it one day, going with the mood he was in, and called it a swishy water attack, and he thought that was pretty funny, and it got better after that, reminding him to do a swishy water attack and he'd say, "oh yeah!" and do it, rather than groan or fake it or try to avoid it. But even that still has an edge to it for me, like I'm too attached to getting it done every time. I know he probably senses that too. It's probably good that he *couldn't* do it yesterday at all because of having had extractions, a break for both of us. I havent mentioned it today yet, he's in a lot of pain off and on.
I know there are other options, like xylitol wipes, for example. And that doing it some of the time is better than none of the time, and some of the time is waaay better than being forced to do it all of the time. Also the dentist told me that it wouldn't do enough to really help anyway, and I'm not sure whether that is actually true, or was her way of trying to make it harder for me to let him snack.
I think I'm feeling fuzzy about how important it really is-- how to balance between control and neglect. I think I still have some distortion or lack of clarity there. Or maybe the problem is more about trusting that I have the wisdom inside me to know the difference, feel it in my soul, and it might take some wiggling, but I can find the balance. That is still a little scary to embrace fully.
Today I noticed that the children's tylenol they recommended he take has high fructose corn-syrup in it.... so then it really didn't make sense to say no to something like a popsicle or ice cream! And, I notice that unlike a lot of kids, including me as a child, he doesn't like the taste of the medecine, even though they try to disguise it as candy. He's had enough candy that he doesn't have to take medecine just to get the sweetness he wants.
My other concern is that I am feeling fear around letting him eat the kind of sticky gummy candy he loves. I have offered alternatives (like strawberry jell-o tastes just like his favorite red gummy bears to me, but he touched it to his tongue and said no way, blecch. I've made jell-o firmer, more like gummy consistency and less like jell-o, and he didn't like it that way either. I offered to cut the gummies up so he doesn't have to chew them, and he said yes to that but once he saw them all cut up he didn't want them anymore and cried, saying they were ruined. He was really sad about it.
The dentist told me (and everything I'm finding online so far) that gummy candies and sticky things like starburst (another favorite of his) would loosen the caps and let bacteria inside, or make them pop off, and that could lead to another abscess and be painful for Josh, and he'd need to have surgery again to fix it. I feel worried about being neglectful of his well-being in that sense.... but I also feel that denying him something he loves so much isn't any better than trying to spare him more dental work (AND she admitted that even doing everything she told us he had to do, he *still* might have it come loose or it might get infected inside!) I know that right now he definitely cares more about gummies than whether his crowns come off or not, and that these are baby teeth. There is time for him to grow into taking care of his own teeth before he's got his full grown up set. And that those can be fixed too.
I think a big chunk of the fear is about being wrong, and making a choice without fully understanding the repercussions, and causing him damage because of it. I have been intently working through some deeper personal issues this year with a counselor, and I know that fear is related to those issues. Just recently, I've started feeling more trusting of my own judgement, and more balanced about my own learning and feel my confidence reemerging in a more clear, clean way. Like I've worked out a lot of knots in my brain and feel a lot less tangled than I once was. But I do feel like I'm stuck (like a gummy on a tooth!) on what would happen if I let him eat gummies. I feel like, worse case scenario, he goes back in for more dental work, which could happen anyway! with the difference of being a happier child than one who is being denied all candy for the sake of their teeth. Logically, it seems so straightforward. But when he asked me for gummies earlier today, I got all tense and after cutting them up didn't work for him, and I said he could suck on them instead of chewing, and he cried again and said that would take too long, I said, not yet, your mouth needs to heal a bit before something like gummies is pulling at the crowns. I found some other soft sweet options (he still can't chew crackers, he tried earlier, I almost feel like even if he tried to chew a gummy, it might hurt and he'd not want them... but I'm afraid to let him try).
My inclination is to wait a bit while his mouth heals some more (he had three extractions, bridges put in, and other fillings in addition to the 8 pulpotomies and crowns), continue offering popsicles and softer sweets, lots of sweet fruit and sweetened yogurt and gatorade, in addition to little platters with a variety of soft protein options (he loves the white part of boiled eggs, and plain tofu even sometimes too). And during this time while his mouth heals, continue to look into his options for helping to clean his mouth between meals, and being willing to see what is inside those tense places in me. ... and trust that if I make room for it, the yes will float up clear and clean and warm. The making room for it is what feels tight right now. And this all feels linked and like an entrance point into other areas I'm feeling similar tightness.
I realized I didn't exactly ask a question. I'd appreciate it if someone knows links where dental care options are discussed, I remember seeing a list in this discussion, I think Marta wrote a bunch out, and know it's come up more than once in the few years I've followed here. Or if anyone has other ideas or suggestions--or can see through places I'm not seeing clearly-- that might help me work through my sudden tightness about it (after a few years of having felt relaxed and like I understood it, and now feeling dismayed like I was mistaken, or didn't get it well enough to keep Josh safe somehow, and so sad and confused about how to help my hurting little boy).
Lisa Celedon
Ali Zeljo
On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 4:24 PM, lisajceledon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:I clicked on "new topic" and thought about how asking about caring for kids' teeth isn't a new topic.
I've done some searches on Sandra's site, and also tried to search here, but the search doesn't work the same as I remember, it wanted a message number, and I'm not sure how to search with words or topics anymore. I'm sorry if that has already been discussed and I missed it or forgot.
Yesterday my son Josh (6.5) had dental surgery and now has 8 crowns. He had an abscess a few weeks ago and was on antibiotics and since that dentist visit, I've noticed a lot of anxiety coming up about his dental care. He's gone a few years not ever wanting to brush his teeth. The dentists at his abscess appointment, and yesterday at the surgery center, were very firm about how serious his dental problems are --they hadn't felt serious before, he hasn't been to the dentist since he was 2, bc I couldn't see a lot of the problems, and he's very rarely (I mean, three times total) ever said he had any discomfort. But they did scare me quite a bit talking about it, and were firm that he has to brush twice a day even if I have to do it, and flossing, and never eating candy or sugary anything.
I have done a lot of reading and thought about those recommendations (which are not new to me) for the last few years, my youngest has had visible decay on his front teeth (and now most of the top teeth) since he was just over a year old. I know that the idea that caries are preventable with diet is false, and that I could choose to never let him ever have any candy or gatorade and he'd still have issues with his teeth-- everyone on both sides of his family has had a fair amount of work done on their teeth, even the ones who talk about sugar like it's an evil drug. I know people whose kids have had a lot of dental work, and are not allowed to eat candy except on special occasions, and only a little bit, and have to brush and floss and do all that.
I have not restricted Josh's diet, but since that visit, have felt a lot of fear around him eating the candy he likes. I've kept a lot of the fear to myself, and I followed up some of what the dentist told Josh about how candy feeds the bacteria and he shouldn't eat it, saying that yes it is true, but many foods feed the bacteria, and there are ways to take care of his mouth and still eat candy, and that his whole body is important to me, the teeth aren't the only important part (he was really sad and upset about being told he couldn't eat candy). He's talked a lot in the last few weeks about how he needs sugar, and feels starving for it sometimes (he's had an abundance of candy for most of his life, and hasn't had restrictions on it, and that 'starving' feeling is because he has real needs in his body and brain that candy meets really well, even when he has been offered (and eaten!) a lot of protein and fats and other kinds of carbohydrates, other kinds of sweet-but-not-candy foods. Right now, he's hungry a lot for candy! I do trust there is a good, real reason for that, and even if there wasn't, not creating lack is good enough reason. His happiness when he has good candy he loves is reason enough. He has lived in a house with candy and cookies and ice cream and will choose cauliflower and green beans because it's what he wants, even though he could choose candy or cookies instead.
I have read some cool stuff about how for past-toddlerhood young children, more calories are dedicated to brain growth than physical growth, and that easy-to-digest sugars are the best fuel for the brain. There is lots of good information about sugar I found again on Sandra's site (like that is has pain-reducing qualities!), so I am feeling better and more relaxed than I was even a few days ago about letting him have the candy he wants. I've stepped up offering him lots of protein options and fruits (now that lots of fruit is in season and it's easy to find good fruit! he and I both really don't like fruit that isn't ripe enough or that is overripe), so that I know he's choosing candy because it's what he wants, not because there aren't better options available.
He snacks a lot, and he and I share that too-- I need to eat protein regularly during the day and snack more than I eat meals. I've always preferred to eat that way, and I feel better when I do rather than when I try to eat bigger meals spaced further apart (which usually leaves me sleepy and cranky within an hour of eating!).
The dentist a few weeks ago told me he has to stop snacking between meals (which the dentist and nutrition counselor yesterday repeated), and that made me anxious too. Most of the time, I remembered to breathe first, when "no," was what I wanted to respond with, and found each time I did that, a yes would float up from a bright, soft place inside me, and then I would feel good about feeding him what he wanted, when he wanted it.
I was feeling tight though about insisting he rinse his mouth after everything he ate, and talked too much about his having an infection and it being important and serious and necessary to take better care of his teeth. After the first few days, I managed to turn that a little nicer, talk a lot less, and I got funny about it one day, going with the mood he was in, and called it a swishy water attack, and he thought that was pretty funny, and it got better after that, reminding him to do a swishy water attack and he'd say, "oh yeah!" and do it, rather than groan or fake it or try to avoid it. But even that still has an edge to it for me, like I'm too attached to getting it done every time. I know he probably senses that too. It's probably good that he *couldn't* do it yesterday at all because of having had extractions, a break for both of us. I havent mentioned it today yet, he's in a lot of pain off and on.
I know there are other options, like xylitol wipes, for example. And that doing it some of the time is better than none of the time, and some of the time is waaay better than being forced to do it all of the time. Also the dentist told me that it wouldn't do enough to really help anyway, and I'm not sure whether that is actually true, or was her way of trying to make it harder for me to let him snack.
I think I'm feeling fuzzy about how important it really is-- how to balance between control and neglect. I think I still have some distortion or lack of clarity there. Or maybe the problem is more about trusting that I have the wisdom inside me to know the difference, feel it in my soul, and it might take some wiggling, but I can find the balance. That is still a little scary to embrace fully.
Today I noticed that the children's tylenol they recommended he take has high fructose corn-syrup in it.... so then it really didn't make sense to say no to something like a popsicle or ice cream! And, I notice that unlike a lot of kids, including me as a child, he doesn't like the taste of the medecine, even though they try to disguise it as candy. He's had enough candy that he doesn't have to take medecine just to get the sweetness he wants.
My other concern is that I am feeling fear around letting him eat the kind of sticky gummy candy he loves. I have offered alternatives (like strawberry jell-o tastes just like his favorite red gummy bears to me, but he touched it to his tongue and said no way, blecch. I've made jell-o firmer, more like gummy consistency and less like jell-o, and he didn't like it that way either. I offered to cut the gummies up so he doesn't have to chew them, and he said yes to that but once he saw them all cut up he didn't want them anymore and cried, saying they were ruined. He was really sad about it.
The dentist told me (and everything I'm finding online so far) that gummy candies and sticky things like starburst (another favorite of his) would loosen the caps and let bacteria inside, or make them pop off, and that could lead to another abscess and be painful for Josh, and he'd need to have surgery again to fix it. I feel worried about being neglectful of his well-being in that sense.... but I also feel that denying him something he loves so much isn't any better than trying to spare him more dental work (AND she admitted that even doing everything she told us he had to do, he *still* might have it come loose or it might get infected inside!) I know that right now he definitely cares more about gummies than whether his crowns come off or not, and that these are baby teeth. There is time for him to grow into taking care of his own teeth before he's got his full grown up set. And that those can be fixed too.
I think a big chunk of the fear is about being wrong, and making a choice without fully understanding the repercussions, and causing him damage because of it. I have been intently working through some deeper personal issues this year with a counselor, and I know that fear is related to those issues. Just recently, I've started feeling more trusting of my own judgement, and more balanced about my own learning and feel my confidence reemerging in a more clear, clean way. Like I've worked out a lot of knots in my brain and feel a lot less tangled than I once was. But I do feel like I'm stuck (like a gummy on a tooth!) on what would happen if I let him eat gummies. I feel like, worse case scenario, he goes back in for more dental work, which could happen anyway! with the difference of being a happier child than one who is being denied all candy for the sake of their teeth. Logically, it seems so straightforward. But when he asked me for gummies earlier today, I got all tense and after cutting them up didn't work for him, and I said he could suck on them instead of chewing, and he cried again and said that would take too long, I said, not yet, your mouth needs to heal a bit before something like gummies is pulling at the crowns. I found some other soft sweet options (he still can't chew crackers, he tried earlier, I almost feel like even if he tried to chew a gummy, it might hurt and he'd not want them... but I'm afraid to let him try).
My inclination is to wait a bit while his mouth heals some more (he had three extractions, bridges put in, and other fillings in addition to the 8 pulpotomies and crowns), continue offering popsicles and softer sweets, lots of sweet fruit and sweetened yogurt and gatorade, in addition to little platters with a variety of soft protein options (he loves the white part of boiled eggs, and plain tofu even sometimes too). And during this time while his mouth heals, continue to look into his options for helping to clean his mouth between meals, and being willing to see what is inside those tense places in me. ... and trust that if I make room for it, the yes will float up clear and clean and warm. The making room for it is what feels tight right now. And this all feels linked and like an entrance point into other areas I'm feeling similar tightness.
I realized I didn't exactly ask a question. I'd appreciate it if someone knows links where dental care options are discussed, I remember seeing a list in this discussion, I think Marta wrote a bunch out, and know it's come up more than once in the few years I've followed here. Or if anyone has other ideas or suggestions--or can see through places I'm not seeing clearly-- that might help me work through my sudden tightness about it (after a few years of having felt relaxed and like I understood it, and now feeling dismayed like I was mistaken, or didn't get it well enough to keep Josh safe somehow, and so sad and confused about how to help my hurting little boy).
Lisa Celedon
semajrak@...
Yes, I think so. Maybe looking at the situation from a different perspective will inspire greater clarity so you have more confidence moving forward.
If your son loved baseball and broke his arm playing, how would you support him? You'd likely tell him he can't play again until it heals. He'd probably be disappointed that he couldn't play, maybe angry, maybe sad, but hopefully you'd find other ways to help him enjoy the game while he recovered.
Being clear helps. "You can't play the game right now. You have a broken arm and it needs time to heal." Same is true with his mouth, I think. It sounds like his mouth needs time to heal, so there are certain foods he should steer clear of. I would suspect hard foods and sticky foods might be problematic, but you would know better than me.
Don't focus on the candy. Focus on what might help or hinder his recovery. Let him know can revisit the foods he loves after he's had time to heal. For now, have fun finding alternatives. Gently ease away from what's not an option, and move toward what is. You both might discover foods you never would have explored otherwise.
Karen James
Sandra Dodd
Dental treament is likely screwy. Everyone who is in business is in business to make money. So politicizing it and demonizing dentists isn’t going to help a single human anywhere in the world. But because dental theories do change, I don’t mind some other ideas being out there.
Please, anyone, everyone, don’t believe anything you’ve only read once, especially in a forum like this, or on facebook. In all my life I’ve never seen as big a flood of falsehood and nonsense as I’ve seen in 2016 so far. The second worst was 2015. Next year should be worse.
BE CAREFUL what you get excited about or fearful of. Be thoughtful.
Read a little. Try a little. Wait a while. Watch. Not just about unschooling.
-=- Current dental practices actually end up destroying the remaining tooth and underlying bone structures, creating further damage to the human body and causing an eventual loss of all teeth-=-
This is incorrect, as to eventual loss of all teeth. For people born in the 1920s (in the U.S.) LOTS and lots lost so many teeth that dentists pulled the remaining teeth and created full dentures. VERY few people born in the 1950’s and 60’s have full dentures, compared to their parents and grandparents. For millenials, it’s plainly too soon to know. Beliefs WILL change again, and then change again. So don’t be duped by any extremists, and don’t believe everything you read.
-=-The majority of dentists are not working to heal teeth or educate the public on oral care, they are in business to make money.-=-
Quite damning of people who learned a trade and got a job and have families to support. “In business to make money” seems so cold and evil, there.
-=-Use toothbrushes with soft bristles made from activated charcoal, bamboo bristles (available on Amazon) ... these are much gentler on teeth and will not erode the enamel from the tooth surfaces like conventional bristles will. If you must use toothpaste, switch to one that is 100% natural with ingredients that are beneficial to the human body ... Twin Lotus makes a good one with activated charcoal (also on Amazon). -=-
Those are not “in business to make money”? Is Twin Lotus not a corporation? If they discover that their product isn’t as great as they’re advertising, will they send money back all over the world and apologize, or won’t they dodge and weave to defend the company from loss?
My strongly held belief about most things is that no one know for sure, knowledge grows and changes, but that stress and fear are always harmful.
People live when they live. If they need medical treatment, when and where they live will determine what might be happening to them. Nobody lives in the future. I doubt there will be a future in which humans know everything perfectly. So far that hasn’t happened, and what’s recommended in one country isn’t the same as across an imaginary line. So ANY freak-out or self-righteous fright will hurt more than help.
Avoid buying into other people’s fright or assuredness or sales pitches.
Check other sources, calmly, Know that it will all change by the time your children are grown.
Sandra
Michelle Marr
As an eleven-year-old I developed ulcers and was on a highly restrictive bland diet. It was miserable. I remember sobbing while watching Burger King commercials. Last year, I was put on blood thinners and had to give up cranberries and severely limit my green veggies. I'd never realized how many cranberries and brussel sprouts were in my Pinterest feed every day until they were suddenly the forbidden fruit. Now I'm on a different blood thinner and the only thing off limits is grapefruit. I probably haven't eaten grapefruit in twenty years and don't even like the stuff, but they told me I can never eat one again and it suddenly sounds awful tempting. (Knowing that it would keep my body from metabolizing the blood thinners is enough to make me follow the rules, but if it was a less serious risk than that, I probably would cheat a bit.)
I wouldn't tell your son that he can never have gummies again, because it seems like that's just too cruel a blow, especially piled on top of all of the dental surgery and everything else. It's not the same thing at all, but part of my ongoing adventure with blood thinners is that I no longer get to take Advil (or anything else non narcotic that works) I can get away with one or two doses a month, so I carry them in my purse for when I really need them and keep saving them for later. I don't know if something like that -- the idea that they're still an option now and then -- would work with gummies. Or maybe not until his mouth heals more. I've only got one crown and I'm not totally clear on how they work.
Are there other foods your son loves that aren't off limits according to the dentists? Maybe something he hasn't thought about because he's so focused on what he suddenly can't have? Or something that isn't food that would be a nice distraction? Can you make it easier on him by keeping him away from the checkout line with the grocery store, or other places where the gummy candies are hanging there all sparkly and tempting?
Michelle
semajrak@...
Ethan and I visited a new dentist in our area after we moved last year. When we walked out of the office, they had proposed around $7500 dollars worth of work that "needed" to be done on my mouth asap (or my teeth might fall out, they said), and $1500 worth of work that they suggested needed to be done for Ethan. Since we'd both had regular 6 month check-ups for years without any major issues, I was left wondering how necessary our work really was. So, I said "No thanks" for now. I wanted another opinion. When we were due for another cleaning, I booked our appointments at a different dentist. Turns out neither of us had any issues that needed to be addressed. The hygienist actually called my mouth "boring!" Sometimes a second or third opinion helps bring a bit of clarity. It can show inconsistencies, and it can help define issues that might really need more attention.
Michelle Marr
> Ethan and I visited a new dentist in our area after we movedI've had a couple of similar experiences over the years, always with a new-to-us dentist. Twice (twenty years apart with different dental problems) I believe that they were scams. One told me I needed a dozen fillings and proposed financing and a payment plan. I went to a different dentist expecting to need all of those fillings and asked him to prioritize which were most urgent. It turned out that I only needed three.
> last year. When we walked out of the office, they had
> proposed around $7500 dollars worth of work that
> "needed" to be done on my mouth asap (or my teeth
> might fall out, they said),
We've also had a family dentist who was extremely aggressive about jumping in and fixing even the most minor problems immediately. I never had reason to question his honesty or ethics, but he was very expensive.
Michelle
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 4, 2016, at 5:09 PM, semajrak@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
<<I think I'm feeling fuzzy about how important it really is-- how to balance between control and neglect. I think I still have some distortion or lack of clarity there.>>
Ethan and I visited a new dentist in our area after we moved last year. When we walked out of the office, they had proposed around $7500 dollars worth of work that "needed" to be done on my mouth asap (or my teeth might fall out, they said), and $1500 worth of work that they suggested needed to be done for Ethan. Since we'd both had regular 6 month check-ups for years without any major issues, I was left wondering how necessary our work really was. So, I said "No thanks" for now. I wanted another opinion. When we were due for another cleaning, I booked our appointments at a different dentist. Turns out neither of us had any issues that needed to be addressed. The hygienist actually called my mouth "boring!" Sometimes a second or third opinion helps bring a bit of clarity. It can show inconsistencies, and it can help define issues that might really need more attention.One thing I have noticed with children who have had issues with their baby teeth is that their adult teeth seem to be more resilient. I've had quiet a few friends whose young ones had problems with decay in their baby teeth. Many of them are Ethan's age or older now, and they all have fine adult teeth. I don't know what causes some baby teeth to decay and others not to. I suspect luck of the (gene) draw. I haven't noticed any pattern among my friends, though that's a very small sampling of people. They had varied diets and habits. Perhaps realizing it will likely not be a forever issue might ease some of your own anxiety.Karen James
Jo Isaac
I've had similar experiences to Karen, and my son is one of those kids that Alex mentioned.
I went to a dentist a few years ago and they told me I needed more than $4000 work done - to fix old fillings, mostly. I said no thanks, at that point. I went to another dentist who told me my teeth were just fine, even with my old fillings...I haven't been
to a dentist since (about 10 years) because I can't afford the work they might suggest anyway.
My son barely brushes his teeth - mostly because he forgets.
Sometimes I still do it for him. He eats whatever he likes - while he chooses nuts, cheese, broccoli, potatoes a lot of the time, he also chooses a fair amount of chocolate, ice cream and other apparently non-dental friendly foods, especially a lot of
carbs (noodles, specifically!). We've been to the local dentist twice with him since we moved to a new state. They are always impressed with his teeth, and make comments to me like 'you must make him brush every day', 'you must restrict his food' etc....I
don't do any of those things - though I don't tell them that! His Dad has great teeth...he's genetically lucky.
Someone in another post said 'Present tooth degradation and decay is caused by diet ' - I don't believe that is
true. Food may play a small part in accelerating tooth decay in people who are genetically predisposed to it, but recent research suggests that the bacteria that naturally occur in your mouth, as a result of genetics, are largely to blame for how healthy (or
not) your teeth and gums are. The presence of cariogenic bacteria is genetically related. I believe you can get tested for the presence of the most common type -
Steptococcus mutans.
Also - yes - his adult teeth may not show the same decay pattern as his baby teeth.
Jo
Sent: 04 June 2016 23:09
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: finding balance regarding dental care
<<I think I'm feeling fuzzy about how important it really is-- how to balance between control and neglect. I think I still have some distortion or lack of clarity there.>>
Ethan and I visited a new dentist in our area after we moved last year. When we walked out of the office, they had proposed around $7500 dollars worth of work that "needed" to be done on my mouth asap (or my teeth might fall out, they said), and $1500 worth
of work that they suggested needed to be done for Ethan. Since we'd both had regular 6 month check-ups for years without any major issues, I was left wondering how necessary our work really was. So, I said "No thanks" for now. I wanted another opinion.
When we were due for another cleaning, I booked our appointments at a different dentist. Turns out neither of us had any issues that needed to be addressed. The hygienist actually called my mouth "boring!" Sometimes a
second or third opinion helps bring a bit of clarity. It can show inconsistencies, and it can help define issues that might really need more attention.
Cass Kotrba
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cheri.tilford@...
Sarah Thompson
For me, it's about priorities. It's not that I don't find there to be strong evidence for certain dietary practices, it's that I have to decide what is the best means of strengthening my relationship with my son, and strengthening his relationship with himself. If I accept as fact that certain foods are toxic and damaging, I'm putting a lot of energy into fear about things that might never happen, and creating strife and conflict in my home. If, instead, I focus on the immediate need, then I'm much calmer and more authentic. So, the immediate need is that there is a healing process that has to happen, and it's your job to facilitate that. Gummies are going to obstruct that healing process. So, how to focus on enabling the healing process in a positive way, rather than the obstruction bogeyman?
My kids are happy to have candy-my younger adores it and he *has* had problems with his teeth. But there are lots of foods they like better, that are special, that they will happily eat instead. All of them are more expensive and typically more effort on my part-embrace that! They love mangoes, grapes, cucumbers, home-made ice cream in cones, sorbet, cupcakes; keep it fun. Find fun sweets that aren't sticky and be the mom that doesn't shame your kids for loving sweets! Would it be better for kids' teeth if we still lived in caves and ate primal diets? Since we don't, it's pretty irrelevant. It might matter to me, as an adult, and I can make my own decisions about food. But I have to let my kids get to their happy place their way.
Sarah
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
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On Jun 4, 2016, at 10:42 AM, Ali Zeljo azeljo@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
You mentioned that diet is not related to tooth decay. I think you were referring to sugar not causing the decay. But I think there is some evidence that adding certain things to the diet can help strengthen the teeth to make them more resistant to tooth decay. There is a book Cure Tooth Decay that recommends X-factor butter oil and cod liver oil among some other harder to implement dietary changes. I have not tried this yet and would ask my son if he'd like to try the easy supplements if I decide I can take on remembering to bring it to him. There is also an oral chewable probiotic that I purchased recently that claims to help change the bacterial balance in the mouth so it doesn't favor decay as much. We are also trying a tooth oil instead of a tooth paste and my own teeth feel so much cleaner now. I am mentioning these ideas because it seems you are focused on the candy because of the dentist recommendations, but there are SO many other approaches you can take to helping the teeth heal and get stronger without even worrying about the candies.Hi Lisa, It's interesting how you can get differing advice on the same matter from different dentists. My son (7) had an abscess recently and had to have the tooth pulled. The dentist saw cavities between every tooth. This was the second issue he has had, so not as extensive as your son's, but still similar. This dentist told us that this is really genetic. If your kid has had a few cavities, he's always going to be dealing with this. The more you can do, the better. She said, "whatever you are doing now, try to do more. Way more would be best." So we were brushing every night, and now we floss before we brush every night. This particular son has no resistance to brushing or flossing, so this is easy for us luckily. I buy bags of flossers that are easy for my son to use while he is playing video games and I pass them out to all my sons at night while they are on their computers. They floss now every night between rounds of whatever games they are playing. In the recovery phase, we bought a water pick and he used that with warm salt water to clean around the hole. I know that brushing in the morning also would be a good idea, but I can't seem to remember to do it. Sometimes when he is eating a lot of sticky food, I will point out that it might stick to his teeth so would he like to brush them afterwards to keep his teeth clean.Our dentist never mentioned eating candy or not eating candy. She did mention xylitol and said the jury is out on that one, but flossing definitely helps. After our experience, I didn't even think about avoiding candy as it never came up at all!It seems that you have an immediate issue of how to handle the healing process and not wanting to do any suction-type of chewing with gummies in the short term although your son is asking to do it anyway. It's not about restricting sugar, but about restricting suction on the caps. Does your son understand that it is a short-term restriction, only to allow the mouth to stabilize and then he will be able to return to his favorite candies? Or did I misunderstand that part of what is going on?~AliOn Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 4:24 PM, lisajceledon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:I clicked on "new topic" and thought about how asking about caring for kids' teeth isn't a new topic.
I've done some searches on Sandra's site, and also tried to search here, but the search doesn't work the same as I remember, it wanted a message number, and I'm not sure how to search with words or topics anymore. I'm sorry if that has already been discussed and I missed it or forgot.
Yesterday my son Josh (6.5) had dental surgery and now has 8 crowns. He had an abscess a few weeks ago and was on antibiotics and since that dentist visit, I've noticed a lot of anxiety coming up about his dental care. He's gone a few years not ever wanting to brush his teeth. The dentists at his abscess appointment, and yesterday at the surgery center, were very firm about how serious his dental problems are --they hadn't felt serious before, he hasn't been to the dentist since he was 2, bc I couldn't see a lot of the problems, and he's very rarely (I mean, three times total) ever said he had any discomfort. But they did scare me quite a bit talking about it, and were firm that he has to brush twice a day even if I have to do it, and flossing, and never eating candy or sugary anything.
I have done a lot of reading and thought about those recommendations (which are not new to me) for the last few years, my youngest has had visible decay on his front teeth (and now most of the top teeth) since he was just over a year old. I know that the idea that caries are preventable with diet is false, and that I could choose to never let him ever have any candy or gatorade and he'd still have issues with his teeth-- everyone on both sides of his family has had a fair amount of work done on their teeth, even the ones who talk about sugar like it's an evil drug. I know people whose kids have had a lot of dental work, and are not allowed to eat candy except on special occasions, and only a little bit, and have to brush and floss and do all that.
I have not restricted Josh's diet, but since that visit, have felt a lot of fear around him eating the candy he likes. I've kept a lot of the fear to myself, and I followed up some of what the dentist told Josh about how candy feeds the bacteria and he shouldn't eat it, saying that yes it is true, but many foods feed the bacteria, and there are ways to take care of his mouth and still eat candy, and that his whole body is important to me, the teeth aren't the only important part (he was really sad and upset about being told he couldn't eat candy). He's talked a lot in the last few weeks about how he needs sugar, and feels starving for it sometimes (he's had an abundance of candy for most of his life, and hasn't had restrictions on it, and that 'starving' feeling is because he has real needs in his body and brain that candy meets really well, even when he has been offered (and eaten!) a lot of protein and fats and other kinds of carbohydrates, other kinds of sweet-but-not-candy foods. Right now, he's hungry a lot for candy! I do trust there is a good, real reason for that, and even if there wasn't, not creating lack is good enough reason. His happiness when he has good candy he loves is reason enough. He has lived in a house with candy and cookies and ice cream and will choose cauliflower and green beans because it's what he wants, even though he could choose candy or cookies instead.
I have read some cool stuff about how for past-toddlerhood young children, more calories are dedicated to brain growth than physical growth, and that easy-to-digest sugars are the best fuel for the brain. There is lots of good information about sugar I found again on Sandra's site (like that is has pain-reducing qualities!), so I am feeling better and more relaxed than I was even a few days ago about letting him have the candy he wants. I've stepped up offering him lots of protein options and fruits (now that lots of fruit is in season and it's easy to find good fruit! he and I both really don't like fruit that isn't ripe enough or that is overripe), so that I know he's choosing candy because it's what he wants, not because there aren't better options available.
He snacks a lot, and he and I share that too-- I need to eat protein regularly during the day and snack more than I eat meals. I've always preferred to eat that way, and I feel better when I do rather than when I try to eat bigger meals spaced further apart (which usually leaves me sleepy and cranky within an hour of eating!).
The dentist a few weeks ago told me he has to stop snacking between meals (which the dentist and nutrition counselor yesterday repeated), and that made me anxious too. Most of the time, I remembered to breathe first, when "no," was what I wanted to respond with, and found each time I did that, a yes would float up from a bright, soft place inside me, and then I would feel good about feeding him what he wanted, when he wanted it.
I was feeling tight though about insisting he rinse his mouth after everything he ate, and talked too much about his having an infection and it being important and serious and necessary to take better care of his teeth. After the first few days, I managed to turn that a little nicer, talk a lot less, and I got funny about it one day, going with the mood he was in, and called it a swishy water attack, and he thought that was pretty funny, and it got better after that, reminding him to do a swishy water attack and he'd say, "oh yeah!" and do it, rather than groan or fake it or try to avoid it. But even that still has an edge to it for me, like I'm too attached to getting it done every time. I know he probably senses that too. It's probably good that he *couldn't* do it yesterday at all because of having had extractions, a break for both of us. I havent mentioned it today yet, he's in a lot of pain off and on.
I know there are other options, like xylitol wipes, for example. And that doing it some of the time is better than none of the time, and some of the time is waaay better than being forced to do it all of the time. Also the dentist told me that it wouldn't do enough to really help anyway, and I'm not sure whether that is actually true, or was her way of trying to make it harder for me to let him snack.
I think I'm feeling fuzzy about how important it really is-- how to balance between control and neglect. I think I still have some distortion or lack of clarity there. Or maybe the problem is more about trusting that I have the wisdom inside me to know the difference, feel it in my soul, and it might take some wiggling, but I can find the balance. That is still a little scary to embrace fully.
Today I noticed that the children's tylenol they recommended he take has high fructose corn-syrup in it.... so then it really didn't make sense to say no to something like a popsicle or ice cream! And, I notice that unlike a lot of kids, including me as a child, he doesn't like the taste of the medecine, even though they try to disguise it as candy. He's had enough candy that he doesn't have to take medecine just to get the sweetness he wants.
My other concern is that I am feeling fear around letting him eat the kind of sticky gummy candy he loves. I have offered alternatives (like strawberry jell-o tastes just like his favorite red gummy bears to me, but he touched it to his tongue and said no way, blecch. I've made jell-o firmer, more like gummy consistency and less like jell-o, and he didn't like it that way either. I offered to cut the gummies up so he doesn't have to chew them, and he said yes to that but once he saw them all cut up he didn't want them anymore and cried, saying they were ruined. He was really sad about it.
The dentist told me (and everything I'm finding online so far) that gummy candies and sticky things like starburst (another favorite of his) would loosen the caps and let bacteria inside, or make them pop off, and that could lead to another abscess and be painful for Josh, and he'd need to have surgery again to fix it. I feel worried about being neglectful of his well-being in that sense.... but I also feel that denying him something he loves so much isn't any better than trying to spare him more dental work (AND she admitted that even doing everything she told us he had to do, he *still* might have it come loose or it might get infected inside!) I know that right now he definitely cares more about gummies than whether his crowns come off or not, and that these are baby teeth. There is time for him to grow into taking care of his own teeth before he's got his full grown up set. And that those can be fixed too.
I think a big chunk of the fear is about being wrong, and making a choice without fully understanding the repercussions, and causing him damage because of it. I have been intently working through some deeper personal issues this year with a counselor, and I know that fear is related to those issues. Just recently, I've started feeling more trusting of my own judgement, and more balanced about my own learning and feel my confidence reemerging in a more clear, clean way. Like I've worked out a lot of knots in my brain and feel a lot less tangled than I once was. But I do feel like I'm stuck (like a gummy on a tooth!) on what would happen if I let him eat gummies. I feel like, worse case scenario, he goes back in for more dental work, which could happen anyway! with the difference of being a happier child than one who is being denied all candy for the sake of their teeth. Logically, it seems so straightforward. But when he asked me for gummies earlier today, I got all tense and after cutting them up didn't work for him, and I said he could suck on them instead of chewing, and he cried again and said that would take too long, I said, not yet, your mouth needs to heal a bit before something like gummies is pulling at the crowns. I found some other soft sweet options (he still can't chew crackers, he tried earlier, I almost feel like even if he tried to chew a gummy, it might hurt and he'd not want them... but I'm afraid to let him try).
My inclination is to wait a bit while his mouth heals some more (he had three extractions, bridges put in, and other fillings in addition to the 8 pulpotomies and crowns), continue offering popsicles and softer sweets, lots of sweet fruit and sweetened yogurt and gatorade, in addition to little platters with a variety of soft protein options (he loves the white part of boiled eggs, and plain tofu even sometimes too). And during this time while his mouth heals, continue to look into his options for helping to clean his mouth between meals, and being willing to see what is inside those tense places in me. ... and trust that if I make room for it, the yes will float up clear and clean and warm. The making room for it is what feels tight right now. And this all feels linked and like an entrance point into other areas I'm feeling similar tightness.
I realized I didn't exactly ask a question. I'd appreciate it if someone knows links where dental care options are discussed, I remember seeing a list in this discussion, I think Marta wrote a bunch out, and know it's come up more than once in the few years I've followed here. Or if anyone has other ideas or suggestions--or can see through places I'm not seeing clearly-- that might help me work through my sudden tightness about it (after a few years of having felt relaxed and like I understood it, and now feeling dismayed like I was mistaken, or didn't get it well enough to keep Josh safe somehow, and so sad and confused about how to help my hurting little boy).
Lisa Celedon
Sandra Dodd
Yes. Good question.
Would the promise of stronger teeth in those who lived to adulthood be worth the risks of children falling into open firepits or being eaten by wolves and tigers? How much time should be spent analyzing that? :-) I guess I’m done for life, now. :-)
People pine for living in other places and other times. It’s probably as natural as anything else about people! People’s innate satisfaction with the way things are is what causes them to invent, improve, and explore.
Sandra
Cass Kotrba
Cass Kotrba
We started the very restrictive diet when she was about 6 until age 10.
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> On Jun 5, 2016, at 1:33 PM, Cass Kotrba caskot@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> did not notice any difference in their oral health pre-special diet vs. post-special diet.
lisajceledon@...
Check other sources, calmly, Know that it will all change by the time your children are grown.---
After I wrote the original post, I felt better for the remainder of the day. I think relaxing a bit allowed some clarity to surface, and I started feeling angry, and after Josh fell asleep next to me I felt really terrible.
I think my confusion and anxiety had a lot to do with the way I made a fear-based decision for my son's care. He went to the dentist because I saw he had an abscess on his gums. With my younger son, who has more obvious decay, I have watched him for signs of abscess and haven't seen it, and have felt comfortable not following the recommendations of the dentists he's seen. Neither child has complained of pain hardly at all, and even with an abscess, Josh said it didn't hurt.
But I took him, because with an infection I felt less secure in my own knowledge of how potentially serious it might be. The information I found online all suggested that it was potentially very serious, even life-threatening. I knew the risk of that was very very unlikely, especially since he had no pain, no inflammation, and wasn't even running much of a fever, but I was afraid to assume it would be fine. I also didn't realize that I would not have the option to only treat the one tooth that had an abscess.
There were a number of things that set off little alarms in my head, there was a lot of effort made toward separating the parents from the kids (I was given a contract to sign that said I would leave the room when the dentist told me to. I didn't sign it, though I did step outside the door when she asked me to leave, and told Josh I was right there and could hear him if he needed me). There were posters hanging that were designed to shame parents for feeding their children anything sweet. There was information that shamed parents for letting their kids have juice, even, or bottles or breastmilk. There was a poster that said "Cavities are 100% preventable!" in english and spanish, which isn't even close to true, based on pretty widely available scientific information on how and why cavities form.
The dental assistant didn't believe Josh (even rolled her eyes at him and said, "it's just in your head.") that he was gagging on the bite wing for the x-ray, even though he articulated very clearly that he *wanted* to hold it in his mouth but his throat kept pushing it back out. I had asked the nurse if she wanted my help, that he might have an easier time doing it with me there. She finally said yes and he was able to do it that time. But afterward I saw her write in big letters on her clipboard "UNCOOPERATIVE." ('How unfair! she was the uncooperative one!!' Screamed in my head when I saw that)
When the dentist came in, he was a little hesitant, a little afraid, but he did let her look and did exactly what she asked really well! He was friendly and chatty with her and they seemed to get along. She also wrote down "UNCOOPERATIVE" on her clipboard!
Even though I intellectually thought this was all suspect, it did effect me on an emotional level in a way I didn't really notice, or know how to anticipate, until the dentist was talking to me about how Josh had a really deep, serious infection that needed immediate treatment in at least two teeth, and that his entire mouth was in really bad shape. I asked her what the options were, as far as treating the most urgent problems first, and she said, No. he had an active infection, his decay was too wide spread and too serious to even begin considering things like that. He needed immediate treatment, and it had to be done under general anesthesia. Once he was under, they would see what needed to be done and do all of it, they could not and would not do partial work. If these problems had been treated earlier on before they got serious, there might have been more room for options, but she wouldn't put her own children through all the work he needed without anesthesia because it would be cruel.
And the basic, deep, primal feeling I had by the end of her speech was one of dismay, that I had been a bad girl, and worse, that I was being negligent and in danger of losing something precious, and I'd better fix it or else. And now I can see how that altered my response. Instead of being thoughtful and thanking her for the information, and following the wisdom I felt about it, which was that it wasn't nearly as urgent as she made it sound, and that I had time to research and ask around and figure out options before making a choice, I became as compliant as she wanted me to be. I became the good girl who was doing the right thing in their eyes.
I'm writing all that out in case it can help anyone else. It helps me too, to put it out there in words. Thinking back, I've had reactions like this since his conception. It's been different than with my second son- I've felt far more confident and calm about being his capable mother, since his birth (which was a much more positive and empowering experience).
In our particular case, in the county we live in, the local social climate, the fact that we have medi-cal and the way medi-cal works in our county, the fact that the kids are not in school, and we have chosen not to do regular medical or dental check-ups for years, ultimately, it was not a terribly insensible thing to follow the dentist's recommendation, especially at that time with the knowledge I had. It helps me a bit to feel good about how perceptive I can be about those things. But I know the difference between making an intentional choice, and making one out of fear, and this one I made out of fear.
Marta was kind enough to forward me the list she compiled of dental care suggestions, along with some discussion about anxiety she generated along very similar lines. And I was so struck at the difference in response between her dentist and the one we saw! It was what helped me see through the fuzziness I'd been feeling, and recognize the way I'd been influenced to do something against my better judgement, and the self doubt and second guessing that followed. I'm glad I have more clarity around what I was feeling.
(More embarrassing was that I had also responded on that thread, with the confidence and clarity I've had around my younger son's dental care)
There was more I realized that made me angry, the night after I sent that original post. But I don't think it would help (me or anyone else) to write it all out here. I'm glad I wasn't afraid to be angry. I used to try to soften everything, and excuse things that made me angry, try to see the positive side, but not in as mindful or sensible a way. This anger has helped me notice more deeply, pay better attention to what I saw and felt and experienced, fearlessly evaluate the impact on Josh, and to think better about my future options.
After scheduling Josh's surgery, fearfully, I went ahead and scheduled Kaiden's too, feeling suddenly like I maybe shouldn't trust my judgement with his mouth either-- or even if I did trust it, I'd better not let them think I trusted myself more than them, that compliance was safer. Luckily his surgery is scheduled further out, and I have time to consider and cancel if that would be better. I am feeling much less afraid, and more clear and competent than I was two days ago. I still don't know exactly what the right choice is, but I don't feel afraid about that, or that I need an answer right now, or that I'm bouncing back in reaction to how I feel about my experience with Josh.
I didn't understand how all of this would unfold when I got scared, seeing an abscess in his mouth, and took him to the dentist. I understand better now, and being angry about it helped me see that I wasn't okay with complying that way, out of fear, and not out of a well-considered intention to do the most sensible thing for my kids.
I do feel ready to move forward, and don't feel like I need to hold on to the anger or for it to be able to guide me better in the future.
Yesterday we picked up some kites to take with us to visit my in-laws, and Josh wanted to get some gummy candy too. I went to look at the display and saw they had a softer sort of gummy that he's liked before, and suggested those, because they were less likely to hurt when he chewed, and he was happy with that. The discharge nurse had told me that he could eat whatever consistency food he was comfortable tolerating, and that I could follow his lead on giving him foods that required more chewing. So when we got back to the car, I handed him the gummies and said it would be good to try chewing one very carefully first and see how that felt. Turned out to be fine and he had no pain. He's still avoiding crackers and cheerios (he loves cheerios), and anything crunchy, but is doing okay. Sweet foods really seem to help the pain a lot. He was holding his jaw the other day and started getting really upset telling me it hurt and he was frustrated that he couldn't eat his lunch (it was all soft stuff, really soft, cooled steamed cauliflower and really ripe little pieces of plum and hardboiled egg), then he asked for a popsicle instead (he didn't want the tylenol) and within 15 minutes of finishing it was in a much better mood and ate more off his plate and got up and started playing and being his normal, silly, playful self.
Again, writing all this out because it helps me, and I hope it can be helpful to other people too.
Lisa Celedon
Sandra Dodd
I was a great student in school. Really studious and quick and I always remembered procedures.
I would say just in elementary and Jr. High, but really it was between 4th grade and 9th, so over six years, the absolute one right way to brush teeth was changed two times, so that’s three different versions of the “right way” to brush. One was up and down on the outsides, and back and forth on the flats of molars. Next, back and forth, gently, soft bristles—not down on the gumline because it would trap food. Third way was down on the top teeth, up on the bottom teeth, always away from the gums.
Then floss and picks came along later, and it was “get below the gum line.” But I don’t remember when that was, and it didn’t come out of a school health book.
And that was in ONE school district. What about kids who moved from state to state or country to country!?
Also, a story I’ve told other places, in my lifetime the part of a hamburger that was the very best part (healthiest) has gone through all of them. And each part (lettuce, tomato, beef, cheese, bread) has been considered bad for one reason or another. Same-same with pizza. Turns out the thing to do is just eat the parts you like and not agonize.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Thanks, Lisa, for sharing all those details.
Maybe, for the other child’s surgery, you could take their recommendations in writing (or the contract, or whatever you might have in wriing) and go to another dentist for a second opinion.
I had some dental surgery I probably didn’t need one time, and felt tricked and shamed.
Probably everyone here could tell a story of having felt disregarded by some medical assistant, nurse, dentist, doctor, or standing by while their child was. It’s frustrating during and afterwards, but those things can give us a starting place for future encounters. It’s easy to get flustered when there’s fear in the mix.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
I’ve saved it, without her name, here, with my response and what she sent me on the side.
http://sandradodd.com/readalittleother.html
At the very bottom is a note from me just for that page, with some links.
It’s not important enough to go to. It was kind of getting off topic. :-)
Sandra
Michelle Marr
> In our particular case, in the county we live in, the localArguing with the doctor scares me, especially when it comes to my kids. Luckily when they've needed something big and scary (like kidney surgery for my newborn) we've had specialists I trusted. When I was unhappy with little things, we just quietly changed doctors and suddenly had healthier kids.
> social climate, the fact that we have medi-cal and the way
> medi-cal works in our county, the fact that the kids are not
> in school, and we have chosen not to do regular medical or
> dental check-ups for years, ultimately, it was not a
> terribly insensible thing to follow the dentist's
> recommendation, especially at that time with the knowledge I
> had. It helps me a bit to feel good about how
> perceptive I can be about those things. But I know the
> difference between making an intentional choice, and making
> one out of fear, and this one I made out of fear.
Quinn's speech therapist decided, because her son had a similar diagnosis and had had his adenoids removed that we should get the same surgery for Quinn. The specialist they referred us to kind of glanced at my kid and said he'd be willing to do the surgery. Going against that advice was scary, even though the surgery would have been an experiment to see if more air flow made his speech easier to understand.
Over the past couple of years my husband and I have dealt with some unpleasant medical adventures and I've become a huge believer in second opinions.
Once, it was just that the first surgeon was a total jerk. I'd asked how we could minimize the risk of infection after my husband's very invasive ankle surgery. His answer -- "You just have to trust that I know what I'm doing." The second surgeon explained that the dressing was put on in a sterile operating room environment and covered with a hard cast so there was no risk of germs from the house getting into the incision. Same procedure and probably the same methods, but we went with the doctor who was willing to listen to our concerns and answer our questions.
My doctor wouldn't test for the cause of my blood clots because the test couldn't be done while I was on medication and if I went off the medication he "couldn't guarantee that I'd live long enough to get the tests done." Second doctor (who is the specialist) did the tests that could be done while I'm on the medication and explained that if I stop taking the pills I'll most likely get another clot in my leg at some point and may have permanent swelling and pain. That's a HUGE difference from the fatal event the first doctor predicted. And I have a feeling that if I'd gone to her a couple of years earlier instead of listening to my regular doctor that I could've avoided a lot of suffering.
If you take your younger son for a second opinion and they advise the same treatment, will feel better about it? Would you be happier with a dentist who doesn't insist that you leave the room? (I know I would!)
Michelle
lisajceledon@...
Cass wrote a bit about what I had been saying, that even having followed those sorts of dietary recommendations, there wasn't a change in levels of decay for my younger child.
So far with my youngest, breastfeeding and trauma to the tooth has made the biggest difference in decay. When he broke the two front teeth on the playground, the decay advanced rapidly for a bit, and spread to a few more teeth on the top. Then it stopped for a long time.
More recently it's starting to smell a bit like decay (it never did before, his breath kept that sweet yummy baby breath smell breastfed children have, even with all the decay), and I can see the two broken front teeth and one next to them look like they're getting a bit worse. A few weeks ago I realized that it happens to coincide with the fact that he's breastfeeding far less than he was a few months ago, mostly just at night to go to sleep, unless he's not feeling well. Before that he was nursing a few times during the day still, and a few times during the night.
Until recently it has remained mostly unchanged for about two years now, even though he breastfed at night (or rather, because of it I think, even thought dentists and doctors around here say otherwise), and ate mostly mac and cheese and ramen and pizza and chili and oreos and chocolate and apple juice. It has still not spread at all to his lower teeth, though they warned me it would.
Another interesting thing is that dentists and doctors often blame nighttime nursing and bottle feeding for decay in young children (every dentist Kaiden has been to has blamed the decay on breastfeeding). Josh was bottlefed and rocked to sleep every night, falling asleep with a bottle in his mouth until about 18 months. When he was a little over two years old, he had a dental check up right before we lost the insurance we had through my husband's old job, and his check up was perfect. Not a single cavity.
Lisa Celedon
Tyra Monteiro
A good example of how sugar attacks the teeth is this: NOTE...I am NOT telling you to do this by any means. It is just an example. Every time you eat something you are creating an acid attack in your mouth. The acid attack lasts for about 20 minutes. So if you were to eat a 1 pound bag of M&Ms in 20 minutes you would have 1 acid attack in your mouth. If you had a small bag of M&Ms and had 1 piece of candy every 20 minutes for 3 hours you would be constantly causing an acid attack. These acid attacks are what is causing the tooth decay. Its basically bottle rot for kids who don't drink from a bottle.
On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 8:59 PM, lisajceledon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:I started to write a detailed response to that post, and then went back to grab a few quotes and it was gone. So I deleted what I'd been writing.
Cass wrote a bit about what I had been saying, that even having followed those sorts of dietary recommendations, there wasn't a change in levels of decay for my younger child.
So far with my youngest, breastfeeding and trauma to the tooth has made the biggest difference in decay. When he broke the two front teeth on the playground, the decay advanced rapidly for a bit, and spread to a few more teeth on the top. Then it stopped for a long time.
More recently it's starting to smell a bit like decay (it never did before, his breath kept that sweet yummy baby breath smell breastfed children have, even with all the decay), and I can see the two broken front teeth and one next to them look like they're getting a bit worse. A few weeks ago I realized that it happens to coincide with the fact that he's breastfeeding far less than he was a few months ago, mostly just at night to go to sleep, unless he's not feeling well. Before that he was nursing a few times during the day still, and a few times during the night.
Until recently it has remained mostly unchanged for about two years now, even though he breastfed at night (or rather, because of it I think, even thought dentists and doctors around here say otherwise), and ate mostly mac and cheese and ramen and pizza and chili and oreos and chocolate and apple juice. It has still not spread at all to his lower teeth, though they warned me it would.
Another interesting thing is that dentists and doctors often blame nighttime nursing and bottle feeding for decay in young children (every dentist Kaiden has been to has blamed the decay on breastfeeding). Josh was bottlefed and rocked to sleep every night, falling asleep with a bottle in his mouth until about 18 months. When he was a little over two years old, he had a dental check up right before we lost the insurance we had through my husband's old job, and his check up was perfect. Not a single cavity.
Lisa Celedon
Tyra Monteiro
On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 11:02 PM, Tyra Monteiro <tyralyn14@...> wrote:Hope your son feels better. I know how much pain all those procedures cause. It is really not fun for anyone least of all a little boy.I bet this is gonna get a bunch of backlash so to all those who intend to comment go for it but I'm not going to argue about my beliefs and the science that backs it up.You are not your kids best friend you are their mother. Sometimes as a mother you need to do things that are in the best interest of the child whether they like it or not. Unschooling does not mean letting your kid run amok doing whatever they want. That is neglect. You are there to guide your kids to be good, kind, intelligent adults, at least that is what I am doing. You wouldn't let your kid play with a rusty razor because you know it could cause potential harm, even serious infections.As for the abscesses, look at your child's face and see how close his teeth are to his brain. Only a few inches. Kids with abscessed teeth is a scary and bad thing. Kids have died from untreated abscesses. Just because you can't see the decay and infection does not mean it does not exist. Your kids should be seen by the dentist at least once per year for an exam and twice a year by the hygienist for a cleaning. If your son cuts himself and the cut gets infected you won't just see it and wait it out. You would get treatment. It is the same thing with dental work. Prevention is the best thing for your kids.First of all there is A LOT of false information in this thread. I was a dental assistant for years and now work for the HUSKY Dental plan and do parent and child education all the time. Baby teeth DO MATTER!! They allow the child to eat and speak properly. They also hold the space for the adult teeth to come in. If both of your children have had dental issues then maybe you need to rethink what you are feeding them. I am not talking about just the candy either. The gummy candies are the worst because they just stick there. BUT that Gatorade is HORRIBLE!! The amount of sugar in 1 serving of Gatorade is ridiculous. Take a bottle, read the amount of sugar PER SERVING, usually 2 servings per bottle, then actually spoon that amount of sugar into a cup to see exactly how much sugar your kids are drinking all the time. There is sugar in everything; fruited yogurt is ridiculous, ketchup, BBQ sauce, granola bars, milk, sports drinks, dried fruit just to name a few. I am not saying don't eat these things, just be conscious about the amount of sugar in them not to mention all the other garbage like food coloring, artificial junk etc.Fluoride is NOT a bad word! It has helped millions of people keep healthy teeth. There are lots of studies to prove that fluoride is beneficial. And for all the fluoride haters out there, lots of water has fluoride in it naturally you just don't know it. Even some bottled water has fluoride in it like Poland Springs. It is not listed as an ingredient because they are not required to list it if it is naturally occurring.
A good example of how sugar attacks the teeth is this: NOTE...I am NOT telling you to do this by any means. It is just an example. Every time you eat something you are creating an acid attack in your mouth. The acid attack lasts for about 20 minutes. So if you were to eat a 1 pound bag of M&Ms in 20 minutes you would have 1 acid attack in your mouth. If you had a small bag of M&Ms and had 1 piece of candy every 20 minutes for 3 hours you would be constantly causing an acid attack. These acid attacks are what is causing the tooth decay. Its basically bottle rot for kids who don't drink from a bottle.On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 8:59 PM, lisajceledon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:I started to write a detailed response to that post, and then went back to grab a few quotes and it was gone. So I deleted what I'd been writing.
Cass wrote a bit about what I had been saying, that even having followed those sorts of dietary recommendations, there wasn't a change in levels of decay for my younger child.
So far with my youngest, breastfeeding and trauma to the tooth has made the biggest difference in decay. When he broke the two front teeth on the playground, the decay advanced rapidly for a bit, and spread to a few more teeth on the top. Then it stopped for a long time.
More recently it's starting to smell a bit like decay (it never did before, his breath kept that sweet yummy baby breath smell breastfed children have, even with all the decay), and I can see the two broken front teeth and one next to them look like they're getting a bit worse. A few weeks ago I realized that it happens to coincide with the fact that he's breastfeeding far less than he was a few months ago, mostly just at night to go to sleep, unless he's not feeling well. Before that he was nursing a few times during the day still, and a few times during the night.
Until recently it has remained mostly unchanged for about two years now, even though he breastfed at night (or rather, because of it I think, even thought dentists and doctors around here say otherwise), and ate mostly mac and cheese and ramen and pizza and chili and oreos and chocolate and apple juice. It has still not spread at all to his lower teeth, though they warned me it would.
Another interesting thing is that dentists and doctors often blame nighttime nursing and bottle feeding for decay in young children (every dentist Kaiden has been to has blamed the decay on breastfeeding). Josh was bottlefed and rocked to sleep every night, falling asleep with a bottle in his mouth until about 18 months. When he was a little over two years old, he had a dental check up right before we lost the insurance we had through my husband's old job, and his check up was perfect. Not a single cavity.
Lisa Celedon
semajrak@...
I was just thinking today how great it has been to be my son's close friend. He can make me laugh like few other people. He's a joy, and I regularly feel so fortunate to be so close to him. One of my favourite writings on being a child's best friend is by Pam Sorooshian. It can be found here:
Friendship in Families
Karen James
semajrak@...
My husband and his sister are one year apart. They grew up close, in the same home, with the same practices. Both of them were given cola in a bottle before the age of one. Both drank cola multiple times daily all through their childhood. Doug's sister's enamel eroded and became thin. She's had a lot of dental work done on her teeth. Doug, now 43 years of age, has never had a cavity. Not one. His teeth have always been and continue to be in perfect condition. He still drinks soda regularly, nearly daily. He's only recently started flossing because our son is enthusiastic about it, and his enthusiasm has inspired us both.
I don't know why Doug's teeth are so resilient while his sisters are more susceptible to decay. Nowadays his sister is much more diligent about avoiding sugars, but is still more prone to tooth decay. She hasn't found the one solution to solve her problem. Doug hasn't come across anything that has caused him to have issues with his teeth. Lucky guy! If both of them as kids had the same decay his sister had, one might aim to conclude that cola was the culprit. But they didn't both have the same issues with decay. They had opposite issues. They both enjoyed the same amount of cola and other sweets. So making one simple conclusion isn't so convenient in their case, nor should it be in anyone's. I don't believe we know yet.
Karen James
Sandra Dodd
#1, chill.
#2, "to all those who intend to comment go for it but…”
Don’t post what you’re not willing to defend, but you’re NOT going to get a bunch of backlash about what you write. What you learned when you went to school is not exactly what people learned in similar schools in other parts of the world, nor what people learned 25 or 40 years ago, nor what people will be taught in 25 or 40 years. So chill about that, too.
“The science” changes in most fields, but dentistry swirls with change.
-=-You are not your kids best friend you are their mother. Sometimes as a mother you need to do things that are in the best interest of the child whether they like it or not. Unschooling does not mean letting your kid run amok doing whatever they want. That is neglect. You are there to guide your kids to be good, kind, intelligent adults, at least that is what I am doing. You wouldn't let your kid play with a rusty razor because you know it could cause potential harm, even serious infections. -=-
You jumped to shame and control with an extreme rusy-razor example.
If you’re not your child’s friend, unschooling will be awkward for you and won’t really flow. Someone has already brought a link to Pam Sorooshian’s great article about being your child’s friend.
Sometimes I have done things my children didn’t like, but had I been telling myself that it was just fine and justified in any situation because otherwise I was neglectful, unschooling would not have worked as well as it did her, and I would not have been thinking as clearly as I could have.
If a course is marked out in advance that says “not-friend, mother decides, else neglect and rusty razors,” then how will the mother learn to stop and think clearly of what her options are and what might be better choices, and why?
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Good that you are.
Be more careful with your writing. This suggests strongly that you think there are people here (the original poster, at least) who are NOT there to guide their children to be good, kind, and intelligent.
-=-If you have HUSKY insurance please call our call center and get referrals. We know the dentists and can recommend a good one that will help with certain situations and issues and who NOT to go to. -=-
Problems with this: This is an international group intended for the discussion of what will help with radical unschooling. Your call center (whatever and wherever it is) doesn’t know all the dentists in a dozen countries around the world, so pay attention to your audience, and what you’re writing, please.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
The standards had changed between 2000 and 2007? And since. And will continue to change. So relaxing won’t hurt anyone here.
-=-OH...and NEVER leave the side of your child in the dental chair!!! They have no right to ask you to leave that room. If ANY dentist asks you to leave the room while your kid gets treatment then take your kid and yourself and leave that office! I hate when dentists say you are not allowed in the room. -=-
They do “have the right” to ask. The mom has the right to have checked in advance, too, and to find another dentist. But being strident and talking about NEVER, and rights, and hating things, is too much strident negativity.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
It’s hard to make decisions while pumped up on anger and hatred.
Hating Gatorade isn’t very useful, either.
This is FULL of negativity:
-=-BUT that Gatorade is HORRIBLE!! The amount of sugar in 1 serving of Gatorade is ridiculous. Take a bottle, read the amount of sugar PER SERVING, usually 2 servings per bottle, then actually spoon that amount of sugar into a cup to see exactly how much sugar your kids are drinking all the time. There is sugar in everything; fruited yogurt is ridiculous, ketchup, BBQ sauce, granola bars, milk, sports drinks, dried fruit just to name a few. I am not saying don't eat these things, just be conscious about the amount of sugar in them not to mention all the other garbage like food coloring, artificial junk etc. -=-
Horrible
ridiculous
ridiculous (again)
garbage
junk
I would prefer not to have that kind of writing in this discussion.
Review policies here before posting again:
Notes on The Always Learning list
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning/
for newer members
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
(and Tyra, it seems you were out of contact for a while and recently updated your e-mail address—start fresh, then)
About posts to the Always Learning list (something that was posted here on June 1, not so long ago)
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
The problem with “ridiculous”
http://sandradodd.com/issues/ridiculous
You were insulting Gatorade and fruity yogurt, but the negativity and energy are still not helpful to you or to the discussion.
Sandra
Tyra Monteiro
Of course learning and teaching change. If it didn't we would be a really sad society. I will defend myself I just have no desire to debate all the fluoride talk and the anti-whatevers.
On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 12:29 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:-=-I bet this is gonna get a bunch of backlash so to all those who intend to comment go for it but I'm not going to argue about my beliefs and the science that backs it up. -=—
#1, chill.
#2, "to all those who intend to comment go for it but…”
Don’t post what you’re not willing to defend, but you’re NOT going to get a bunch of backlash about what you write. What you learned when you went to school is not exactly what people learned in similar schools in other parts of the world, nor what people learned 25 or 40 years ago, nor what people will be taught in 25 or 40 years. So chill about that, too.
“The science” changes in most fields, but dentistry swirls with change.
-=-You are not your kids best friend you are their mother. Sometimes as a mother you need to do things that are in the best interest of the child whether they like it or not. Unschooling does not mean letting your kid run amok doing whatever they want. That is neglect. You are there to guide your kids to be good, kind, intelligent adults, at least that is what I am doing. You wouldn't let your kid play with a rusty razor because you know it could cause potential harm, even serious infections. -=-
You jumped to shame and control with an extreme rusy-razor example.
If you’re not your child’s friend, unschooling will be awkward for you and won’t really flow. Someone has already brought a link to Pam Sorooshian’s great article about being your child’s friend.
Sometimes I have done things my children didn’t like, but had I been telling myself that it was just fine and justified in any situation because otherwise I was neglectful, unschooling would not have worked as well as it did her, and I would not have been thinking as clearly as I could have.
If a course is marked out in advance that says “not-friend, mother decides, else neglect and rusty razors,” then how will the mother learn to stop and think clearly of what her options are and what might be better choices, and why?
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra