About marriage, attitude, hope?
Sandra Dodd
I have a request to post this anonymously.
________________________________________________________
I've never posted to a email list group before and I'd like for this to be anonymous so I'm hoping you can post this to Always Learning for me, I know it's not specifically unschooling but repairing this marriage will make the difference between whether we can unschool or not and I don't know anywhere better to help me get back to a positive place and help me see where my thinking is stuck in distancing rather than bonding and repairing places.
Our boys are 5 and 21 months. I've been reading about and trying out unschooling principles since our oldest was about 6 months old. I have always loved to learn new things and have actively pursued many varied interests so academic unschooling made perfect sense to me from the beginning. It took quite a bit longer for me to really begin to understand the importance of the relationships along with everything else but it's coming much easier to view my real children and interact with Them instead of the Imaginary children I might sometimes wish I had.
It's still really hard for me to look at my husband and see Him and not the Man-I-Wished-I'd-Married (or rather how he falls short of that).
Earlier this year we went through a really rough patch that hit me out of the blue and made me suddenly afraid that our marriage might not only not last forever but not even last the year. He assures me that he doesn't want to leave but I'm finding my thoughts full of awful things like I never really loved him and I married him for the wrong reasons and I should have known from the beginning that I shouldn't have married him, let alone had two children with him. I have made good enough progress on being kind that I've managed to avoid saying any of that out loud and I've managed to avoid saying anything even in anger or hurt that I'd wished I could take back.
Here's the main point of my question: I'm not an explosive person and am far more prone to not saying things that I maybe should rather than hurt someone with my words. Are there any times that complaining to a spouse about their behavior and how it makes me feel are actually helpful? Or is that pretty much always putting more distance between us and would be better served to find ways to let go? More specifically he is very self centered and selfish with his time typically spending less than 5 hours a week playing with his boys and I'm lucky if I get any focused attention at all.
_____________
End of the quote.
If there are new members here who want to jump up and recommend divorce, please don’t.
Sandra
________________________________________________________
I've never posted to a email list group before and I'd like for this to be anonymous so I'm hoping you can post this to Always Learning for me, I know it's not specifically unschooling but repairing this marriage will make the difference between whether we can unschool or not and I don't know anywhere better to help me get back to a positive place and help me see where my thinking is stuck in distancing rather than bonding and repairing places.
Our boys are 5 and 21 months. I've been reading about and trying out unschooling principles since our oldest was about 6 months old. I have always loved to learn new things and have actively pursued many varied interests so academic unschooling made perfect sense to me from the beginning. It took quite a bit longer for me to really begin to understand the importance of the relationships along with everything else but it's coming much easier to view my real children and interact with Them instead of the Imaginary children I might sometimes wish I had.
It's still really hard for me to look at my husband and see Him and not the Man-I-Wished-I'd-Married (or rather how he falls short of that).
Earlier this year we went through a really rough patch that hit me out of the blue and made me suddenly afraid that our marriage might not only not last forever but not even last the year. He assures me that he doesn't want to leave but I'm finding my thoughts full of awful things like I never really loved him and I married him for the wrong reasons and I should have known from the beginning that I shouldn't have married him, let alone had two children with him. I have made good enough progress on being kind that I've managed to avoid saying any of that out loud and I've managed to avoid saying anything even in anger or hurt that I'd wished I could take back.
Here's the main point of my question: I'm not an explosive person and am far more prone to not saying things that I maybe should rather than hurt someone with my words. Are there any times that complaining to a spouse about their behavior and how it makes me feel are actually helpful? Or is that pretty much always putting more distance between us and would be better served to find ways to let go? More specifically he is very self centered and selfish with his time typically spending less than 5 hours a week playing with his boys and I'm lucky if I get any focused attention at all.
_____________
End of the quote.
If there are new members here who want to jump up and recommend divorce, please don’t.
Sandra
Saood Hashim
Peace be upon you
Let me begin with my first ever post on AlwaysLearning with this post.
I really empathize with you.
As for your question that are there any times when you can talk to your spouse about his behavior which would result in a the spouse listening and understanding, so I would say yes there are. But those times are certainly not every time and those times are certainly not at times when you are emotional.
I would recommend that you work out a plan - a three to six months plan - to address this issue. You have to be really strong enough to not let emotions overcome while carrying out the plan. By the will of God you would see things improving, if you remain patient and be steadfast with your plan.
As for the plan, I would relate a real story about a person whom one of my teacher met. I think you can find inspiration for yourself on how to address this issue of yours. It may not be an exact replica of your circumstances but I am sure you can find something for you in it.
Both husband and wife were quite the partying and drinking/smoking type persons. Living together they had kids. However, the husband had a change of heart at some point in time and began feeling bad about his lifestyle and the lack of any purpose and started becoming a more Godly person. However, his wife continued with the old ways which he couldn't bear and perhaps had a number of arguments with her. Not knowing how to address it, he approached an advisor and asked for advise. The advise that he gave was to never say a word about her ways which he did not like but try to become the best husband and to become the best father that he could without any expectation from her. Very soon he could see his wife noticing the changes in her husband and then it happened..... Once it was that he was doing his prayers and his wife sat besides him joining him in the prayer.
I know it is easier said than done, but this is a true story and it can be done with some patience and perseverance.
May the blessings of God be upon you.
Regards
Saood
From: "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: Always Learning <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, 26 November 2015, 7:28
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] About marriage, attitude, hope?
I have a request to post this anonymously.
________________________________________________________
I've never posted to a email list group before and I'd like for this to be anonymous so I'm hoping you can post this to Always Learning for me, I know it's not specifically unschooling but repairing this marriage will make the difference between whether we can unschool or not and I don't know anywhere better to help me get back to a positive place and help me see where my thinking is stuck in distancing rather than bonding and repairing places.
Our boys are 5 and 21 months. I've been reading about and trying out unschooling principles since our oldest was about 6 months old. I have always loved to learn new things and have actively pursued many varied interests so academic unschooling made perfect sense to me from the beginning. It took quite a bit longer for me to really begin to understand the importance of the relationships along with everything else but it's coming much easier to view my real children and interact with Them instead of the Imaginary children I might sometimes wish I had.
It's still really hard for me to look at my husband and see Him and not the Man-I-Wished-I'd-Married (or rather how he falls short of that).
Earlier this year we went through a really rough patch that hit me out of the blue and made me suddenly afraid that our marriage might not only not last forever but not even last the year. He assures me that he doesn't want to leave but I'm finding my thoughts full of awful things like I never really loved him and I married him for the wrong reasons and I should have known from the beginning that I shouldn't have married him, let alone had two children with him. I have made good enough progress on being kind that I've managed to avoid saying any of that out loud and I've managed to avoid saying anything even in anger or hurt that I'd wished I could take back.
Here's the main point of my question: I'm not an explosive person and am far more prone to not saying things that I maybe should rather than hurt someone with my words. Are there any times that complaining to a spouse about their behavior and how it makes me feel are actually helpful? Or is that pretty much always putting more distance between us and would be better served to find ways to let go? More specifically he is very self centered and selfish with his time typically spending less than 5 hours a week playing with his boys and I'm lucky if I get any focused attention at all.
_____________
End of the quote.
If there are new members here who want to jump up and recommend divorce, please don’t.
Sandra
________________________________________________________
I've never posted to a email list group before and I'd like for this to be anonymous so I'm hoping you can post this to Always Learning for me, I know it's not specifically unschooling but repairing this marriage will make the difference between whether we can unschool or not and I don't know anywhere better to help me get back to a positive place and help me see where my thinking is stuck in distancing rather than bonding and repairing places.
Our boys are 5 and 21 months. I've been reading about and trying out unschooling principles since our oldest was about 6 months old. I have always loved to learn new things and have actively pursued many varied interests so academic unschooling made perfect sense to me from the beginning. It took quite a bit longer for me to really begin to understand the importance of the relationships along with everything else but it's coming much easier to view my real children and interact with Them instead of the Imaginary children I might sometimes wish I had.
It's still really hard for me to look at my husband and see Him and not the Man-I-Wished-I'd-Married (or rather how he falls short of that).
Earlier this year we went through a really rough patch that hit me out of the blue and made me suddenly afraid that our marriage might not only not last forever but not even last the year. He assures me that he doesn't want to leave but I'm finding my thoughts full of awful things like I never really loved him and I married him for the wrong reasons and I should have known from the beginning that I shouldn't have married him, let alone had two children with him. I have made good enough progress on being kind that I've managed to avoid saying any of that out loud and I've managed to avoid saying anything even in anger or hurt that I'd wished I could take back.
Here's the main point of my question: I'm not an explosive person and am far more prone to not saying things that I maybe should rather than hurt someone with my words. Are there any times that complaining to a spouse about their behavior and how it makes me feel are actually helpful? Or is that pretty much always putting more distance between us and would be better served to find ways to let go? More specifically he is very self centered and selfish with his time typically spending less than 5 hours a week playing with his boys and I'm lucky if I get any focused attention at all.
_____________
End of the quote.
If there are new members here who want to jump up and recommend divorce, please don’t.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
I do want to respond to some of the points in the original post, but I’m sleepy. Some existing resources in the meantime, and before reading anything think this (memorize this):
Read a little, try a little,
Wait a while, watch.
If you take your time you won’t lose anything. If you rush, you might lose it all.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce (prevention of)
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
And the archives of Marriage Moats, written by Lori Odhner, might have ideas to help. You can subscribe to daily e-mails, and there’s a book (collection of some of her favorites a few years ago):
http://archive.aweber.com/marriagemoats
Some have a religious component; most don’t.
If that bothers you, skip it by, go to another one.
Lori was one of the first La Leche League leaders who helped me when Kirby was four months old. She has been working with families and children longer than I’ve been a mom, and she’s nice and made me this quilt for speaking at one of her marriage conferences:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2012/02/my-beautiful-quilt.html
I hope to write more tomorrow or Friday.
Sandra
Read a little, try a little,
Wait a while, watch.
If you take your time you won’t lose anything. If you rush, you might lose it all.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce (prevention of)
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
And the archives of Marriage Moats, written by Lori Odhner, might have ideas to help. You can subscribe to daily e-mails, and there’s a book (collection of some of her favorites a few years ago):
http://archive.aweber.com/marriagemoats
Some have a religious component; most don’t.
If that bothers you, skip it by, go to another one.
Lori was one of the first La Leche League leaders who helped me when Kirby was four months old. She has been working with families and children longer than I’ve been a mom, and she’s nice and made me this quilt for speaking at one of her marriage conferences:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2012/02/my-beautiful-quilt.html
I hope to write more tomorrow or Friday.
Sandra
semajrak@...
<<Are there any times that complaining to a spouse about their behavior and how it makes me feel are actually helpful?>>
<<It's still really hard for me to look at my husband and see Him and not the Man-I-Wished-I'd-Married (or rather how he falls short of that).>>
For now, don't look for Him, with a capital H. Look for little things you like about what he's doing moment to moment. If he smiles at the boys a certain way, and you like the way that looks, soften into it. Enjoy that. If you like the way his shoulders span under his t-shirt, take an extra moment to appreciate it. If he sets down his cup gently, or he is careful about something, take time to see that. If you enjoy staying at home with your children, remember to appreciate the work he does to help you have this time with them. Most importantly, look at the children you and he have made together. Appreciate them. They wouldn't be who they are without your husband. Build up a cache of little things that are good about your husband, and let them be the colours you paint his portrait with.
It's good to complain if you've paid for a service or product that doesn't match the standards it has advertised. I don't think it's a good idea to complain to a person whose behaviour doesn't live up to our expectations, especially if that person is someone we hope to have a relationship with. Talking with that person might work if the person is open to it, and the conversation flows both ways. I love Sandra's leaning on a truck page. Some of Doug (my husband) and my best conversations have grown out of playing a game together, or working side by side in some way, or driving in the car.
http://sandradodd.com/truck
For now, don't look for Him, with a capital H. Look for little things you like about what he's doing moment to moment. If he smiles at the boys a certain way, and you like the way that looks, soften into it. Enjoy that. If you like the way his shoulders span under his t-shirt, take an extra moment to appreciate it. If he sets down his cup gently, or he is careful about something, take time to see that. If you enjoy staying at home with your children, remember to appreciate the work he does to help you have this time with them. Most importantly, look at the children you and he have made together. Appreciate them. They wouldn't be who they are without your husband. Build up a cache of little things that are good about your husband, and let them be the colours you paint his portrait with.
When the resentment lifts a bit, and it feels natural, and you've spent some time noticing things you do enjoy about him, let him know what you appreciate. You don't need to say it always with words. It can be with a touch or a look.
Be someone he enjoys being with. If he likes movies, find movies he enjoys and offer to watch them with him. If he likes certain kinds of books, pick up one or two for him and place them on his pillow. If there is a certain kind of music he enjoys, have it playing when you know he's coming home. Make his favourite food. Plan a vacation in a place he likes. Be a good friend to him. Be someone he can feel loves and cares about him very much.
Surround yourself with friends that encourage you, but don't commiserate with you. Help your friends see the same good things you've found in your husband so that they will be less inclined to speak negatively about him. If you have some more serious issues you need to talk with someone about, consider consulting with a therapist or life coach.
Sandra has a list of people who understand and support unschooling here:
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
Karen James
clovis70@...
I could have written your post. I have spent years with much distance from my husband because he ended up not being the Man-I-Wished-I-Had-Married (and I was not the Wife-He-Wished-He-Had-Married). I wasted lots of time complaining to friends about how marrying him was the worst mistake I'd ever made. Although I always felt appreciative of the children we've had together.
Our lives are different now, for which I am very thankful! There are 2 things that have helped make this change happen: 3+1 assignment and couples therapy.
The 3+1 assignment was a suggestion a trusted friend gave me. Every evening, I look through my day and locate 3 items about my husband that I am thankful for, appreciate of, or like about him and one item that I have done through the day to be of service to him (the helpful type of service, not being a servant of his) with the intent of saving my marriage. I email this assignment to my trusted friend every day. The way that this assignment has made a difference for me is that my attention is on what I like about him rather than what I don't like (which is what I thought about day & night for years). For me, it has been important to have the accountability to send my assignment to someone else. The thing about this assignment is that my focus has been on myself & what I can change about me (not what I think he needs to do differently).
We have tried different couples therapists over the years. Some have been a good fit, others not so much. The one we currently work with has proven to be very helpful. What happens there is that we can each talk through our resentments/frustrations with each other with the therapist helping interpret what the other person is saying/where the other person is coming from. I mention this because it's the place where I can voice my complaints about his behavior and how I feel about those times and he can hear what I'm trying to communicate underneath the complaint. There's something different that happens during those appointments: the therapist helps us see our defense mechanisms and understand what the other person is trying to communicate. This is something we have not been successful doing on our own, but we are learning those skills with the therapist & I have confidence that when we're done, we can take those skills with us. One important piece of this is *my* pattern of walking into a situation with my husband with an assumption about him (note,again, this is something I can change about myself), and he has his own assumptions about me and it's been difficult for us to set those assumptions aside on our own so that we can talk through what happened without that gunk built up from years of distance and dysfunction.
<<More specifically he is very self centered and selfish with his time typically spending less than 5 hours a week playing with his boys and I'm lucky if I get any focused attention at all.>>
^^^This part of your post stuck out to me. You have made a judgement about your husband ('self-centered and selfish with his time')....Some people need more self-time than other people---maybe your husband is one of those people. It sounds like you'd like him to spend more time with your boys, is that because you need time to yourself and would appreciate his taking care of the kids? Is it because you see that your boys want more time and attention from their dad? Could it be that he doesn't feel confident in his role as their dad & he's not sure how he fits in, so he stays away? Is it because of another reason?
Also, you imply that you'd like more time with your husband. Have you told him that you are missing him and would like some alone time with him? Can you arrange a date night with him (either with a sitter for your kids or after your kids are asleep)? I know your kids are young and those things (date night/alone time) were really hard for my husband and me to coordinate when our kids were that young. For our 15th anniversary, my husband planned a surprise weekend away for us---it's the first time we've been away from our kids ever. It was lovely! Interestingly, we met a couple who were celebrating their 25th anniversary & it's the first time they'd been away from their kids--I appreciated that comparison.
I hope my experience is helpful for you!
Mary
Sandra Dodd
-=- I have made good enough progress on being kind that I've managed to avoid saying any of that out loud and I've managed to avoid saying anything even in anger or hurt that I'd wished I could take back. -=-
The next step is not to think those things, and not to store them up and polish them and wonder when the right time to say them will be.
-=- I'm not an explosive person and am far more prone to not saying things that I maybe should rather than hurt someone with my words.-=-
You would be hurting more than one person, though. You might be looking through the wrong end of the binoculars.
-=- Are there any times that complaining to a spouse about their behavior and how it makes me feel are actually helpful? -=-
If your relationship hasn’t had such conversations from the beginning, a near-divorce year is probably not the time to start.
It’s possible that your husband has wishes or suggestions for you that he’s also withholding.
I don’t want the original anonymous poster to contribute directly at all (unless on the side to me to bring here), and so I know this is more general and less specific, but we’re not a fix-it shop here, we’re a philosophy shop. If ideas aren’t needed or useful in the next twelve hours, imagine how they might possibly be useful in the future, and don’t brush them aside.
People have a stance, emotionally. Some call it “where you’re coming from.” Where are you at rest, in the moment, looking around.
Religions can create a stance for people—an at-rest starting place of the heart and soul.
When people live with little or no religion, or when a person is moving away from prescribed social roles and ways of being, one large problem is that they might not know where they’re coming from, or where they are. Sometimes their behaviors and thoughts are reactionary—a wad of “yeah but” thoughts, nervously and unclearly half-articulated.
Without a religious or cultural definition and image of how a wife is supposed to see her relationship with her husband and children (and community, and God), answers might be sought from some facebook group of unschooling parents. :-) There are worse places to ask for ideas. But it IS part of a changing world, that people puzzle these things out in individual ways, and sometimes it’s botched.
OF COURSE, yes, I know, some of you are thinking that there are disasters and failed marriages and botch jobs when the husband and wife both play out the ideal socio-religious roles of a lifetime. Yes. But in those cases, it wasn’t your fault. It will be seen as bad luck falling on good people. Any departure from the common path is a danger, and anyone who thinks you shouldn’t have done that will blame the departure, the hubris, the “who do you think you are?”
And that’s the question I’m working around to: Who do you think you are?
If you’re a parent of children, then they need things. They need an intact family, if possible. They need food, shelter, safety, comfort, maybe happiness.
If you’re seeing yourself increasingly as “an unschooling parent,” it’s vital to know (for you to know) whether your spouse is interested in becoming one of those, too.
If (as for many parents) the children are grubs and future humans who are seen as resilient creatures who won’t remember much of their childhood later, and if you don’t like this partner, maybe you and the kids will like the next one you find, then the decisions become about the mom and her “happiness.”
Sometimes second marriages are great! Sometimes they’re just a lead-in to third marriages.
Often they’re pretty similar to the the first marriage, because some of the problems of the first marriage reside in or were caused by this person who moves to the second marriage (or third, fourth), learning too late that if she’s changed those behaviors and beliefs in the first marriage, she could still have those family photos out in public, and would be having a tenth or fifteenth anniversary coming up, rather than a second anniversary of a marriage that needed to be planned so that the date didn’t remind her of the anniversary of the first marriage, or the second. Second marriages don’t erase the ex-husband, former inlaws, or custody sharing.
If someone asks for help when she already has her emotional bags packed and her spirit is standing with the door open, wanting other people to tell her to step out and close it, she’s probably leaving regardless of the response.
If someone truly wants help to stay, there is a lot of possibility for help with the thoughts that might help.
ONE-ON-ONE HELP: http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy (unschooling-knowledgeable counselors and coaches who can help at a distance)
READINGS:
If you’re considering a separation: http://sandradodd.com/separation (other people’s thoughtful writing from former discussions)
Divorce (prevention of, for unschoolers) http://sandradodd.com/divorce (written by an unschooling mom with a great second marriage, and deep regrets)
Spouses "Unschooling can make us better partners!” http://sandradodd.com/spouses
Trying not to control a spouse: http://sandradodd.com/control.html#spouses
Those have links. The discussion group is quiet, but joining and asking questions could stir it back up, maybe.
Sandra
The next step is not to think those things, and not to store them up and polish them and wonder when the right time to say them will be.
-=- I'm not an explosive person and am far more prone to not saying things that I maybe should rather than hurt someone with my words.-=-
You would be hurting more than one person, though. You might be looking through the wrong end of the binoculars.
-=- Are there any times that complaining to a spouse about their behavior and how it makes me feel are actually helpful? -=-
If your relationship hasn’t had such conversations from the beginning, a near-divorce year is probably not the time to start.
It’s possible that your husband has wishes or suggestions for you that he’s also withholding.
I don’t want the original anonymous poster to contribute directly at all (unless on the side to me to bring here), and so I know this is more general and less specific, but we’re not a fix-it shop here, we’re a philosophy shop. If ideas aren’t needed or useful in the next twelve hours, imagine how they might possibly be useful in the future, and don’t brush them aside.
People have a stance, emotionally. Some call it “where you’re coming from.” Where are you at rest, in the moment, looking around.
Religions can create a stance for people—an at-rest starting place of the heart and soul.
When people live with little or no religion, or when a person is moving away from prescribed social roles and ways of being, one large problem is that they might not know where they’re coming from, or where they are. Sometimes their behaviors and thoughts are reactionary—a wad of “yeah but” thoughts, nervously and unclearly half-articulated.
Without a religious or cultural definition and image of how a wife is supposed to see her relationship with her husband and children (and community, and God), answers might be sought from some facebook group of unschooling parents. :-) There are worse places to ask for ideas. But it IS part of a changing world, that people puzzle these things out in individual ways, and sometimes it’s botched.
OF COURSE, yes, I know, some of you are thinking that there are disasters and failed marriages and botch jobs when the husband and wife both play out the ideal socio-religious roles of a lifetime. Yes. But in those cases, it wasn’t your fault. It will be seen as bad luck falling on good people. Any departure from the common path is a danger, and anyone who thinks you shouldn’t have done that will blame the departure, the hubris, the “who do you think you are?”
And that’s the question I’m working around to: Who do you think you are?
If you’re a parent of children, then they need things. They need an intact family, if possible. They need food, shelter, safety, comfort, maybe happiness.
If you’re seeing yourself increasingly as “an unschooling parent,” it’s vital to know (for you to know) whether your spouse is interested in becoming one of those, too.
If (as for many parents) the children are grubs and future humans who are seen as resilient creatures who won’t remember much of their childhood later, and if you don’t like this partner, maybe you and the kids will like the next one you find, then the decisions become about the mom and her “happiness.”
Sometimes second marriages are great! Sometimes they’re just a lead-in to third marriages.
Often they’re pretty similar to the the first marriage, because some of the problems of the first marriage reside in or were caused by this person who moves to the second marriage (or third, fourth), learning too late that if she’s changed those behaviors and beliefs in the first marriage, she could still have those family photos out in public, and would be having a tenth or fifteenth anniversary coming up, rather than a second anniversary of a marriage that needed to be planned so that the date didn’t remind her of the anniversary of the first marriage, or the second. Second marriages don’t erase the ex-husband, former inlaws, or custody sharing.
If someone asks for help when she already has her emotional bags packed and her spirit is standing with the door open, wanting other people to tell her to step out and close it, she’s probably leaving regardless of the response.
If someone truly wants help to stay, there is a lot of possibility for help with the thoughts that might help.
ONE-ON-ONE HELP: http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy (unschooling-knowledgeable counselors and coaches who can help at a distance)
READINGS:
If you’re considering a separation: http://sandradodd.com/separation (other people’s thoughtful writing from former discussions)
Divorce (prevention of, for unschoolers) http://sandradodd.com/divorce (written by an unschooling mom with a great second marriage, and deep regrets)
Spouses "Unschooling can make us better partners!” http://sandradodd.com/spouses
Trying not to control a spouse: http://sandradodd.com/control.html#spouses
Those have links. The discussion group is quiet, but joining and asking questions could stir it back up, maybe.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
I went down one trail in a previous e-mail. Here’s another.
-=- repairing this marriage will make the difference between whether we can unschool or not and I don't know anywhere better to help me get back to a positive place and help me see where my thinking is stuck in distancing rather than bonding and repairing places.-=-
Gratitude.
Service.
Abundance.
Try to provide those for others.
BE grateful, but also do things that will add to their gratitude and abundance.
Don’t look for ways they have not served you. Look for ways to serve them (and thereby the family, and ultimately yourself).
I never would have thought, when this page was new, that it would be one of the best and most important pages on my site.
http://sandradodd.com/chores/gift
There are three links at the bottom. Click through to “Service.”
Speed reading will count against you. It will be like pouring water over your head when you really needed to drink water.
Take the ideas into your heart. Read a little. Try a little. Wait a while. Watch.
http://sandradodd.com/abundance
http://sandradodd.com/gratitude
Sandra
-=- repairing this marriage will make the difference between whether we can unschool or not and I don't know anywhere better to help me get back to a positive place and help me see where my thinking is stuck in distancing rather than bonding and repairing places.-=-
Gratitude.
Service.
Abundance.
Try to provide those for others.
BE grateful, but also do things that will add to their gratitude and abundance.
Don’t look for ways they have not served you. Look for ways to serve them (and thereby the family, and ultimately yourself).
I never would have thought, when this page was new, that it would be one of the best and most important pages on my site.
http://sandradodd.com/chores/gift
There are three links at the bottom. Click through to “Service.”
Speed reading will count against you. It will be like pouring water over your head when you really needed to drink water.
Take the ideas into your heart. Read a little. Try a little. Wait a while. Watch.
http://sandradodd.com/abundance
http://sandradodd.com/gratitude
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-More specifically he is very self centered and selfish with his time typically spending less than 5 hours a week playing with his boys and I'm lucky if I get any focused attention at all.-=-
Sometimes men don’t know how to interact with their children.
For gratitude and abundance, though, perhaps you could look at what your husband IS doing that benefits you and the children. He’s there playing with his boys a little bit, and that might increase if the home is a more peaceful, joyful, welcoming place to be.
If he’s not fooling around or spending money on other women, that’s good. Some husbands do that.
And maybe your husband is needier than you are. It’s possible that he’s thinkig that you hardly focus any attention on him.
Men’s roles are changing, too, but in no tradition before have men been expected to play with their children more than five hours a week, or even ONE hour a week. Seriously. Look at real history and the real world more than at fantasy wishful made-up ideals. Some families do find a lot of time together after a while, but it take that time being inviting, more than someone setting rules and looking at the clock and telling the other spouse “not enough; you failed again.”
And IF he’s bringing his paycheck home and so you can stay with your boys, that’s a luxury most women don’t have.
Smiling is contagious. Moods spread. If you smile at him more, and thank him for things he does, and say nice things to him and about him, things will be better already. As you do it more, he will relax and maybe feel some gratitude, too. Not immediately. Don’t look at the clock and don’t measure. At first it might seem awkward and false, and it might be, but if you keep being positive and kind, there will be more positivity and kindness in your life, his life, and your kids’ lives.
Sandra
Sometimes men don’t know how to interact with their children.
For gratitude and abundance, though, perhaps you could look at what your husband IS doing that benefits you and the children. He’s there playing with his boys a little bit, and that might increase if the home is a more peaceful, joyful, welcoming place to be.
If he’s not fooling around or spending money on other women, that’s good. Some husbands do that.
And maybe your husband is needier than you are. It’s possible that he’s thinkig that you hardly focus any attention on him.
Men’s roles are changing, too, but in no tradition before have men been expected to play with their children more than five hours a week, or even ONE hour a week. Seriously. Look at real history and the real world more than at fantasy wishful made-up ideals. Some families do find a lot of time together after a while, but it take that time being inviting, more than someone setting rules and looking at the clock and telling the other spouse “not enough; you failed again.”
And IF he’s bringing his paycheck home and so you can stay with your boys, that’s a luxury most women don’t have.
Smiling is contagious. Moods spread. If you smile at him more, and thank him for things he does, and say nice things to him and about him, things will be better already. As you do it more, he will relax and maybe feel some gratitude, too. Not immediately. Don’t look at the clock and don’t measure. At first it might seem awkward and false, and it might be, but if you keep being positive and kind, there will be more positivity and kindness in your life, his life, and your kids’ lives.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Right after I wrote about smiling being contagious, I went back to e-mail and found this, from Karen James, in another topic:
_________________________________
Look for moments in the day that are good--especially the ordinary moments. Pause and appreciate them when you see them. Let them set the mood for how you move forward. Listen for pleasing sounds. A giggle. A child's breath. Your own heartbeat. Some music. Close your eyes, notice and appreciate those sounds. Find the ones that make you smile. Let your smile soften your mood.
http://sandradodd.com/badmoment
Smile more.
_________________________________
There’s “Just Add Light and Stir” for tomorrow. :-)
Anyone here not already reading those might want to. It used to be all my words and e-mail years back (I can say “years back” now beause it’s over five years old), but it’s increasingly others
I can’t imagine it would hurt anyone to read those, or to ignore them in the e-mail. I’m thinking that in cases of angsty frustration, they might be useful boosts.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
Sandra
_________________________________
Look for moments in the day that are good--especially the ordinary moments. Pause and appreciate them when you see them. Let them set the mood for how you move forward. Listen for pleasing sounds. A giggle. A child's breath. Your own heartbeat. Some music. Close your eyes, notice and appreciate those sounds. Find the ones that make you smile. Let your smile soften your mood.
http://sandradodd.com/badmoment
Smile more.
_________________________________
There’s “Just Add Light and Stir” for tomorrow. :-)
Anyone here not already reading those might want to. It used to be all my words and e-mail years back (I can say “years back” now beause it’s over five years old), but it’s increasingly others
I can’t imagine it would hurt anyone to read those, or to ignore them in the e-mail. I’m thinking that in cases of angsty frustration, they might be useful boosts.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
Sandra
K Pennell
I too had times that I longed for the "man I wished he was". I felt he didn't love me the way I wanted to be loved. I was pretty sure we'd made a mistake getting married, and now here we were a couple of decades in, and I didn't see how to fix it.
I got to a place where I really, really tried to see it all from his point of view. I also got to a point where I wanted him to be happy, even if it meant divorce. But, if I was willing to consider divorce in order for him to be happy, I was definitely willing to consider making changes in my own attitude first. I tried harder to love him and be sweet, even when he wasn't sweet and I didn't FEEL sweet. At first this was hard, but soon it got easier. When he was grumpy or said something hurtful, I heard the hurt he was feeling, rather than just focusing on my own hurt.
I did also work at more honesty, though. There is venting, but there is also calm honest expression that can bring you closer. We both acknowledged that marrying all those years ago was probably a mistake. But, having come this far, what did we want to do now? Neither of us wanted a divorce. We didn't want to do that to our youngest son, and we didn't want to lose each other, either. Taking stock like that together helped us each see how much we valued each other and the family we've built.
From: "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: Always Learning <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 11:28 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] About marriage, attitude, hope?
I have a request to post this anonymously.
________________________________________________________
I've never posted to a email list group before and I'd like for this to be anonymous so I'm hoping you can post this to Always Learning for me, I know it's not specifically unschooling but repairing this marriage will make the difference between whether we can unschool or not and I don't know anywhere better to help me get back to a positive place and help me see where my thinking is stuck in distancing rather than bonding and repairing places.
Our boys are 5 and 21 months. I've been reading about and trying out unschooling principles since our oldest was about 6 months old. I have always loved to learn new things and have actively pursued many varied interests so academic unschooling made perfect sense to me from the beginning. It took quite a bit longer for me to really begin to understand the importance of the relationships along with everything else but it's coming much easier to view my real children and interact with Them instead of the Imaginary children I might sometimes wish I had.
It's still really hard for me to look at my husband and see Him and not the Man-I-Wished-I'd-Married (or rather how he falls short of that).
Earlier this year we went through a really rough patch that hit me out of the blue and made me suddenly afraid that our marriage might not only not last forever but not even last the year. He assures me that he doesn't want to leave but I'm finding my thoughts full of awful things like I never really loved him and I married him for the wrong reasons and I should have known from the beginning that I shouldn't have married him, let alone had two children with him. I have made good enough progress on being kind that I've managed to avoid saying any of that out loud and I've managed to avoid saying anything even in anger or hurt that I'd wished I could take back.
Here's the main point of my question: I'm not an explosive person and am far more prone to not saying things that I maybe should rather than hurt someone with my words. Are there any times that complaining to a spouse about their behavior and how it makes me feel are actually helpful? Or is that pretty much always putting more distance between us and would be better served to find ways to let go? More specifically he is very self centered and selfish with his time typically spending less than 5 hours a week playing with his boys and I'm lucky if I get any focused attention at all.
_____________
End of the quote.
If there are new members here who want to jump up and recommend divorce, please don’t.
Sandra
------------------------------------
Posted by: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
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Sandra Dodd
I know Karen went on to say later, maybe say… but this jumped up and scared me:
-=-If he smiles at the boys a certain way, and you like the way that looks, soften into it. Enjoy that. If you like the way his shoulders span under his t-shirt, take an extra moment to appreciate it. If he sets down his cup gently, or he is careful about something, take time to see that. -=-
BUT DON’T SAY “ that was a nice way to smile at the boys,” or “I’m glad you set the cup down gently.” That sounds like criticism, because it is. It’s saying “THIS one single time you weren’t a failure.”
Sandra
-=-If he smiles at the boys a certain way, and you like the way that looks, soften into it. Enjoy that. If you like the way his shoulders span under his t-shirt, take an extra moment to appreciate it. If he sets down his cup gently, or he is careful about something, take time to see that. -=-
BUT DON’T SAY “ that was a nice way to smile at the boys,” or “I’m glad you set the cup down gently.” That sounds like criticism, because it is. It’s saying “THIS one single time you weren’t a failure.”
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
I really liked Mary’s post.
This one reminded me of a couple of things on my site, though (to add to the pile of links…. but there’s time to work through ideas gradually).
________
^^^This part of your post stuck out to me. You have made a judgement about your husband ('self-centered and selfish with his time')....Some people need more self-time than other people---maybe your husband is one of those people. It sounds like you'd like him to spend more time with your boys, is that because you need time to yourself and would appreciate his taking care of the kids? Is it because you see that your boys want more time and attention from their dad? Could it be that he doesn't feel confident in his role as their dad & he's not sure how he fits in, so he stays away? Is it because of another reason?
(by Mary / clovis70…)
____________
My husband wasn’t very helpful when very young children. He DID go to work early and often. And he’s an introvert, so being “on” at work for eight hours really did require some alone-time for him.
http://sandradodd.com/introvert
The page starts “What if your child is…”
but what if the little boy inside your husbad is an introvert? Important to consider
And the question of why you want him to spend more time with the boys made me wonder (even aside from the clock measurement) whether you’re weighing his time against yours and resentful that it’s not 50/50.
50/50 is a horrible trap.
Here’s something I wrote (about something I wrote):
_______________
A friend got married recently and I wrote down some advice for them that I hadn't ever thought before:
Don't aim for 50/50.
If 50% is right, then 49% is wrong, and 65% would be something get angry about.
If you both aim for more than half, you'll meet around the middle, around half the time. If you want the other person to stick around, "around" is the goal.
If the mom learns and then demonstrates that giving can make a person feel happy, *then* she might have children who are also generous and kind. If the mom acts pouty and whiney and martyrly, she will have children who are confused and needy and resentful.
________________
Sandra
This one reminded me of a couple of things on my site, though (to add to the pile of links…. but there’s time to work through ideas gradually).
________
^^^This part of your post stuck out to me. You have made a judgement about your husband ('self-centered and selfish with his time')....Some people need more self-time than other people---maybe your husband is one of those people. It sounds like you'd like him to spend more time with your boys, is that because you need time to yourself and would appreciate his taking care of the kids? Is it because you see that your boys want more time and attention from their dad? Could it be that he doesn't feel confident in his role as their dad & he's not sure how he fits in, so he stays away? Is it because of another reason?
(by Mary / clovis70…)
____________
My husband wasn’t very helpful when very young children. He DID go to work early and often. And he’s an introvert, so being “on” at work for eight hours really did require some alone-time for him.
http://sandradodd.com/introvert
The page starts “What if your child is…”
but what if the little boy inside your husbad is an introvert? Important to consider
And the question of why you want him to spend more time with the boys made me wonder (even aside from the clock measurement) whether you’re weighing his time against yours and resentful that it’s not 50/50.
50/50 is a horrible trap.
Here’s something I wrote (about something I wrote):
_______________
A friend got married recently and I wrote down some advice for them that I hadn't ever thought before:
Don't aim for 50/50.
If 50% is right, then 49% is wrong, and 65% would be something get angry about.
If you both aim for more than half, you'll meet around the middle, around half the time. If you want the other person to stick around, "around" is the goal.
If the mom learns and then demonstrates that giving can make a person feel happy, *then* she might have children who are also generous and kind. If the mom acts pouty and whiney and martyrly, she will have children who are confused and needy and resentful.
________________
Sandra
semajrak@...
<<BUT DON’T SAY “ that was a nice way to smile at the boys,” or “I’m glad you set the cup down gently.” That sounds like criticism, because it is. It’s saying “THIS one single time you weren’t a failure.”>>
Oh yes! Don't say those things. Just notice those things. Notice as many little things as you can to build up a sweeter picture of your husband for yourself. Then, when you feel confident you won't be condescending, because you've grown to truly appreciate more about your husband, let him know that you appreciate him, when it makes sense to.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear there. :-)
Karen
Oh yes! Don't say those things. Just notice those things. Notice as many little things as you can to build up a sweeter picture of your husband for yourself. Then, when you feel confident you won't be condescending, because you've grown to truly appreciate more about your husband, let him know that you appreciate him, when it makes sense to.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear there. :-)
Karen
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sorry, I wasn't very clear there. :-) -=-
You were clear in the following paragraph. :-)
I was afraid someone here might not read that far!
This all makes me want to be extra nice to my husband today, seriously. I haven’t “been mean,” but I’ve been kind of neutral to inattentive, and I should do better. Just for Thanksgiving. And if that feels good, maybe tomorrow, too. :-)
Sandra
You were clear in the following paragraph. :-)
I was afraid someone here might not read that far!
This all makes me want to be extra nice to my husband today, seriously. I haven’t “been mean,” but I’ve been kind of neutral to inattentive, and I should do better. Just for Thanksgiving. And if that feels good, maybe tomorrow, too. :-)
Sandra
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
-=-Sorry, I wasn't very clear there. :-) -=-
You were clear in the following paragraph. :-)
I was afraid someone here might not read that far!
This all makes me want to be extra nice to my husband today, seriously. I haven’t “been mean,” but I’ve been kind of neutral to inattentive, and I should do better. Just for Thanksgiving. And if that feels good, maybe tomorrow, too. :-)
Sandra
------
I am driving home with my husband from thanksgiving at my sister's house 45 minutes away.
Well he is driving and I am reading this thread. It made me turn to my no perfect but wonderful husband and tell him I love him.
He smiled.
He is not perfect and neither am I.
I learned to look at him with gratitude and appreciation for all he does for us. He works amazingly hard and the kids come first for him.
I got to love him for that alone! For being able to stay home with my kids!!!
Love is a choice. I chose everyday to love him and look for the positives in this man. He is the father of our children and my children love him dearly.
Looking for the pairing, being kind, having gratitude and appreciation, accepting him for who he is and not some imaginary person I wish him to be is and choosing to make our marriage work and love him everyday is what keeps us together.
Don't look for what you imagine you wanted, or the person you wish him to be. Do t look for flaws and mistakes. Look for what you can be grateful about this person.
It will change your life and your family.
And when I am not feeling this warm living feelings towards him that is when I chose even more to see all the positive in our Lives!
Alex Polikowsky
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
I meant to say :
Liking for the positive
And
Don't look for flaws!
I was getting nauseous from reading in the cAr! Sorry :)
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 26, 2015, at 2:26 PM, Alex & Brian Polikowsky polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-Sorry, I wasn't very clear there. :-) -=-
You were clear in the following paragraph. :-)
I was afraid someone here might not read that far!
This all makes me want to be extra nice to my husband today, seriously. I haven’t “been mean,” but I’ve been kind of neutral to inattentive, and I should do better. Just for Thanksgiving. And if that feels good, maybe tomorrow, too. :-)
Sandra
------
I am driving home with my husband from thanksgiving at my sister's house 45 minutes away.
Well he is driving and I am reading this thread. It made me turn to my no perfect but wonderful husband and tell him I love him.
He smiled.
He is not perfect and neither am I.
I learned to look at him with gratitude and appreciation for all he does for us. He works amazingly hard and the kids come first for him.
I got to love him for that alone! For being able to stay home with my kids!!!
Love is a choice. I chose everyday to love him and look for the positives in this man. He is the father of our children and my children love him dearly.
Looking for the pairing, being kind, having gratitude and appreciation, accepting him for who he is and not some imaginary person I wish him to be is and choosing to make our marriage work and love him everyday is what keeps us together.
Don't look for what you imagine you wanted, or the person you wish him to be. Do t look for flaws and mistakes. Look for what you can be grateful about this person.
It will change your life and your family.
And when I am not feeling this warm living feelings towards him that is when I chose even more to see all the positive in our Lives!
Alex Polikowsky
Sandra Dodd
Here is a beautiful response from the anonymous mom with the original question I think it will help everyone who reads it.
____________________________
My only regret in writing is that I didn't write the group sooner.
It gives me lots of hope that there are other marriages who have been here and moved past it. I pretty much got the advice I expected and it came with some specifics that will help.
When I first signed up for Just Add Light and Stir I enjoyed reading and thinking about the messages every morning but I haven't given them time to sink in lately, I'll take that time again, it helps.
I never wanted to consider divorce, I was afraid he was going to walk away. My boys happiness is far more important to me than my own, I can find so much joy in their smiles, unless their safety was at stake (which it isn't), leaving daddy is not on the table.
Karen James' suggestions to soften into the little moments is exactly what I need to do. There are lots of good moments if I don't crowd them out by getting prickly about the bad moments. I will more consciously shift my focus.
I don't have any close friends where we are but I'm very lucky that the group of mommas we spend a lot of time with is a very positive group. There is never any husband bashing.
From Sandra: -=-The next step is not to think those things, and not to store them up and polish them and wonder when the right time to say them will be. -=-
Of course. So simple, not easy, but simple. I can do that. I can change my thought patterns and stop thinking those thoughts (I did know there was never a time to say those awful thoughts if I wanted to keep the marriage). The image of keeping thoughts and polishing them up is a really good description of what I was doing.
In response to the "who do I think I am?" part, I think I'm going to work on shifting my emphasis away from identifying as an unschooling mom more to being mom and wife. My husband isn't very interested in unschooling as he understands it, but after a good conversation we had the other day, I think that's just cause his understanding is based on my very flawed original understanding from years ago. The important parts (he knows school is unnecessary in any form) he gets, he just wants some "Structure" for them. Take their hands and show them new things they couldn't find on their own. Of course! I think I probably focused too much on the freedom early on when we really discussed it together and since school age was so far away he just let it go. But as my understanding evolved I haven't let him in on that particular evolution of thought. He is willing to read stuff I email him so long as I don't send too much. I don't need to unschool, if DH feels better without that label as long as my boys are respected as people with opinions and individuals we can make it work.
The service, chores/gift, and gratitude pages of Sandra's site have been my favorites since I found them. I'm a terrible housekeeper by my mother's standards but I've been able to shift my attitiude and do what's necessary with joy and both of my boys not only help but will initiate cleaning. (Is there anything sweeter than a 5 year old saying "Momma, can I do the dishes?" cleanliness is SO not a learned behavior!)
It would make DH happier if I could keep the house cleaner though. That wasn't possible for a long time but I finally got diagnosed as severely hypothyroid a few months ago and I have the energy to do it now. I can find ways to reestablish housekeeping as a higher priority for him.
My husband had a sad and lonely childhood. Sometimes I forget that he's got a really big hole to fill there. He is much needier than I am. He does work hard to provide a good paycheck at a job he doesn't love so I can stay home with the boys. I do thank him for that, but not often enough.
We have the fairly classic roles of male provider, female homemaker and mother. Being reminded that the role of "daddy" is fairly new is a great reminder to be grateful for the time he does spend with them.
I love the reminder from Mary to look for thing to be grateful for AND things I can do for him. After I wrote this post I did walk around and ask myself what I could to to "say I love you" for him, I ended up cleaning his desk and plugging in his wireless headphones. So simple but I felt better and he noticed and appreciated it. I've done that occasionally but doing it daily would be so much better!
After the reminder from Sandra that it is a new expectation it was so helpful to think about why I expected/wanted him to spend more time with the boys. Partially I'm jealous that he gets to sit down and do exactly what he wants for hours with very few interruptions. A lot is that I know the boys are so happy when they do get focused attention from daddy. I never considered it before but he probably isn't very comfortable in his role as daddy. He knows he doesn't want to be like his father but I haven't built up his confidence by correcting his every misttep (I've been a lot better about that the last year or two but the dynamic was probably too firmly established already).
He does know I want more time with him and I know with two little boys we won't get a lot but so many of the opportunities we do have he seems to almost actively avoid by going to bed early (he's a night owl, going to bed early used to only happen when he was sick and now seems to also happen when he's frustrated with me or the boys) or just spending the whole time on his computer.
I will be more welcoming, I will stop criticizing his choices that are different than mine (not even in my head). I will be more present when he is with the boys so I can redirect when they do start to frustrate each other (and I will find a way to do it without it being a critique of him! Milkshakes anyone?) so playtime is more fun for everyone and maybe he'll want to do it more or at least it won't end in frustration. I will look for the sweet and kind and lovable things about him and let them crowd out the parts I don't. I will be sweeter and softer and kinder. I will NOT send a bill or expect a response. The home will be sweeter and softer and kinder because *I* have changed. Anything further is bonus. I will reread this daily and then weekly until I no longer need the reminder.
Thank you all SO much. I can do this.
____________________________
My only regret in writing is that I didn't write the group sooner.
It gives me lots of hope that there are other marriages who have been here and moved past it. I pretty much got the advice I expected and it came with some specifics that will help.
When I first signed up for Just Add Light and Stir I enjoyed reading and thinking about the messages every morning but I haven't given them time to sink in lately, I'll take that time again, it helps.
I never wanted to consider divorce, I was afraid he was going to walk away. My boys happiness is far more important to me than my own, I can find so much joy in their smiles, unless their safety was at stake (which it isn't), leaving daddy is not on the table.
Karen James' suggestions to soften into the little moments is exactly what I need to do. There are lots of good moments if I don't crowd them out by getting prickly about the bad moments. I will more consciously shift my focus.
I don't have any close friends where we are but I'm very lucky that the group of mommas we spend a lot of time with is a very positive group. There is never any husband bashing.
From Sandra: -=-The next step is not to think those things, and not to store them up and polish them and wonder when the right time to say them will be. -=-
Of course. So simple, not easy, but simple. I can do that. I can change my thought patterns and stop thinking those thoughts (I did know there was never a time to say those awful thoughts if I wanted to keep the marriage). The image of keeping thoughts and polishing them up is a really good description of what I was doing.
In response to the "who do I think I am?" part, I think I'm going to work on shifting my emphasis away from identifying as an unschooling mom more to being mom and wife. My husband isn't very interested in unschooling as he understands it, but after a good conversation we had the other day, I think that's just cause his understanding is based on my very flawed original understanding from years ago. The important parts (he knows school is unnecessary in any form) he gets, he just wants some "Structure" for them. Take their hands and show them new things they couldn't find on their own. Of course! I think I probably focused too much on the freedom early on when we really discussed it together and since school age was so far away he just let it go. But as my understanding evolved I haven't let him in on that particular evolution of thought. He is willing to read stuff I email him so long as I don't send too much. I don't need to unschool, if DH feels better without that label as long as my boys are respected as people with opinions and individuals we can make it work.
The service, chores/gift, and gratitude pages of Sandra's site have been my favorites since I found them. I'm a terrible housekeeper by my mother's standards but I've been able to shift my attitiude and do what's necessary with joy and both of my boys not only help but will initiate cleaning. (Is there anything sweeter than a 5 year old saying "Momma, can I do the dishes?" cleanliness is SO not a learned behavior!)
It would make DH happier if I could keep the house cleaner though. That wasn't possible for a long time but I finally got diagnosed as severely hypothyroid a few months ago and I have the energy to do it now. I can find ways to reestablish housekeeping as a higher priority for him.
My husband had a sad and lonely childhood. Sometimes I forget that he's got a really big hole to fill there. He is much needier than I am. He does work hard to provide a good paycheck at a job he doesn't love so I can stay home with the boys. I do thank him for that, but not often enough.
We have the fairly classic roles of male provider, female homemaker and mother. Being reminded that the role of "daddy" is fairly new is a great reminder to be grateful for the time he does spend with them.
I love the reminder from Mary to look for thing to be grateful for AND things I can do for him. After I wrote this post I did walk around and ask myself what I could to to "say I love you" for him, I ended up cleaning his desk and plugging in his wireless headphones. So simple but I felt better and he noticed and appreciated it. I've done that occasionally but doing it daily would be so much better!
After the reminder from Sandra that it is a new expectation it was so helpful to think about why I expected/wanted him to spend more time with the boys. Partially I'm jealous that he gets to sit down and do exactly what he wants for hours with very few interruptions. A lot is that I know the boys are so happy when they do get focused attention from daddy. I never considered it before but he probably isn't very comfortable in his role as daddy. He knows he doesn't want to be like his father but I haven't built up his confidence by correcting his every misttep (I've been a lot better about that the last year or two but the dynamic was probably too firmly established already).
He does know I want more time with him and I know with two little boys we won't get a lot but so many of the opportunities we do have he seems to almost actively avoid by going to bed early (he's a night owl, going to bed early used to only happen when he was sick and now seems to also happen when he's frustrated with me or the boys) or just spending the whole time on his computer.
I will be more welcoming, I will stop criticizing his choices that are different than mine (not even in my head). I will be more present when he is with the boys so I can redirect when they do start to frustrate each other (and I will find a way to do it without it being a critique of him! Milkshakes anyone?) so playtime is more fun for everyone and maybe he'll want to do it more or at least it won't end in frustration. I will look for the sweet and kind and lovable things about him and let them crowd out the parts I don't. I will be sweeter and softer and kinder. I will NOT send a bill or expect a response. The home will be sweeter and softer and kinder because *I* have changed. Anything further is bonus. I will reread this daily and then weekly until I no longer need the reminder.
Thank you all SO much. I can do this.
Cheri Tilford
In the 18 years my husband and I have been together (we celebrate 11 years married next month), we've been to marriage counseling twice. The last time was when our daughter (now almost 5) was a year old - it was, in my mind, a gift to her so we could have a happy peaceful home for her to grow up in, rather than one where we argued every evening and I was feeling resentful and he was feeling attacked. It took a year of weekly visits to an expensive therapist, but it was more than worth it.
Over the years, I have recognized the power I have in relationships. Not a power over anyone or anything, but power to change my perception, which changes my world and affects everyone around me. It wasn't until our second round in therapy that my husband was able to articulate in a way I understood how much he felt like a failure, and how much I contributed to that feeling. My expectations were impossible for him - or anyone - to live up to, and I made sure he knew all my disappointments. He and I approach and perceive the world in astoundingly different ways. I saw his reticence to share his feelings with me as him being distant, selfish, and uncaring. He saw my insistence that he behave as I did as me being critical, controlling, and inflexible. One of us was right.
I've learned that the complaints that start cascading in my mind are a signal for me to look at myself. What have I been doing that is less than loving, less than accepting, less than kind? What can I do for myself in those moments so I can be more generous with those around me? What is my responsibility, and where am I being unnecessarily controlling? My husband has helped me see where I'm painfully critical, hopefully saving our child from those harmful experiences. I've helped him see how some of his ways are hurtful to me, even if that wasn't his intent. We've elucidated patterns that we can now point out to each other and say "look, we're doing it again" and avoid falling in that same hole again, which has been the most helpful thing about therapy.
How is your attitude toward your husband affecting your children, both now and in the future (thinking that you could potentially treat them similarly)? We recently went through another rough patch. At one point I asked him if he thought we'd be happier apart. He basically told me to stop being dramatic and ridiculous, which just so happened to be the best response in that moment. I'm grateful we both come from intact families and divorce isn't an option we take seriously, not one that's on the table (though one I admit to fantasizing about in the worst moments - purely a selfish indulgence on my part - and then I continue my fantasy on to how horrible holidays would be, how sad our daughter would be, and how I'd be stuck with him anyway because we share a child so I might as well shift my thinking and stop being an asshole to him, even if it's only in my mind).
We have one child. Sometimes I feel like I have two. It's in those moments I stop and think about how much he loves our daughter, how she absolutely adores him, how good he is at playing with her, how much he trusts me to be the one to make major decisions for her regarding diet, healthcare, education, etc. I used to resent that he wouldn't give his opinions more often on those things until he pointed out I was the one who did all the reading and research (which is my inclination naturally, and not his, which is neither right nor wrong, but one of our many differences) and he felt like a bumbling idiot sometimes, and he deeply respects and trusts me and knows I'm a good mom. So it was a sign of appreciation that I misinterpreted. It took me years of being with him to realize I'm hard to live with too! I'm not perfect. The critical thoughts about him come from the part of me that thinks I'm perfect. I can now recognize her voice, and hush it up faster.
This is a gift to my husband, my daughter, myself, and every living creature who crosses my path. Imagine all the incredible learning I would have missed had I left him all those years ago, before our first try at therapy? When I get stuck in negative thinking patterns, I like to look around at our family photos and think about how much I enjoy seeing us smiling together. I look at photos of us when we were dating, and remember the things about him that made me fall in love. I think ahead to something fun we have planned. I'll go to the grocery store and get ingredients to make his favorite food, and allow his happiness to be a buoy for me. I'll suggest we watch a show we both like and we'll laugh together. I'll ask for a hug. I'll watch our daughter hold his hand or giggle at their play. She loves him so much, I'd never purposely do anything to mess that up. cheri
Over the years, I have recognized the power I have in relationships. Not a power over anyone or anything, but power to change my perception, which changes my world and affects everyone around me. It wasn't until our second round in therapy that my husband was able to articulate in a way I understood how much he felt like a failure, and how much I contributed to that feeling. My expectations were impossible for him - or anyone - to live up to, and I made sure he knew all my disappointments. He and I approach and perceive the world in astoundingly different ways. I saw his reticence to share his feelings with me as him being distant, selfish, and uncaring. He saw my insistence that he behave as I did as me being critical, controlling, and inflexible. One of us was right.
I've learned that the complaints that start cascading in my mind are a signal for me to look at myself. What have I been doing that is less than loving, less than accepting, less than kind? What can I do for myself in those moments so I can be more generous with those around me? What is my responsibility, and where am I being unnecessarily controlling? My husband has helped me see where I'm painfully critical, hopefully saving our child from those harmful experiences. I've helped him see how some of his ways are hurtful to me, even if that wasn't his intent. We've elucidated patterns that we can now point out to each other and say "look, we're doing it again" and avoid falling in that same hole again, which has been the most helpful thing about therapy.
How is your attitude toward your husband affecting your children, both now and in the future (thinking that you could potentially treat them similarly)? We recently went through another rough patch. At one point I asked him if he thought we'd be happier apart. He basically told me to stop being dramatic and ridiculous, which just so happened to be the best response in that moment. I'm grateful we both come from intact families and divorce isn't an option we take seriously, not one that's on the table (though one I admit to fantasizing about in the worst moments - purely a selfish indulgence on my part - and then I continue my fantasy on to how horrible holidays would be, how sad our daughter would be, and how I'd be stuck with him anyway because we share a child so I might as well shift my thinking and stop being an asshole to him, even if it's only in my mind).
We have one child. Sometimes I feel like I have two. It's in those moments I stop and think about how much he loves our daughter, how she absolutely adores him, how good he is at playing with her, how much he trusts me to be the one to make major decisions for her regarding diet, healthcare, education, etc. I used to resent that he wouldn't give his opinions more often on those things until he pointed out I was the one who did all the reading and research (which is my inclination naturally, and not his, which is neither right nor wrong, but one of our many differences) and he felt like a bumbling idiot sometimes, and he deeply respects and trusts me and knows I'm a good mom. So it was a sign of appreciation that I misinterpreted. It took me years of being with him to realize I'm hard to live with too! I'm not perfect. The critical thoughts about him come from the part of me that thinks I'm perfect. I can now recognize her voice, and hush it up faster.
This is a gift to my husband, my daughter, myself, and every living creature who crosses my path. Imagine all the incredible learning I would have missed had I left him all those years ago, before our first try at therapy? When I get stuck in negative thinking patterns, I like to look around at our family photos and think about how much I enjoy seeing us smiling together. I look at photos of us when we were dating, and remember the things about him that made me fall in love. I think ahead to something fun we have planned. I'll go to the grocery store and get ingredients to make his favorite food, and allow his happiness to be a buoy for me. I'll suggest we watch a show we both like and we'll laugh together. I'll ask for a hug. I'll watch our daughter hold his hand or giggle at their play. She loves him so much, I'd never purposely do anything to mess that up. cheri
semajrak@...
<<My husband had a sad and lonely childhood. Sometimes I forget that he's got a really big hole to fill there.>>
I love my parents very much. We've grown a lot closer in these past ten years. I'm very grateful for that. They've lived long enough for that to happen. And I've grown out of my resentment enough to mature and learn to nurture a better relationship with them. But, I had a hard and lonely childhood too. The consequence of that was that I expected most people would disappoint me. I didn't know what a caring relationship looked like, so I was clumsy and clueless about my own role in one. Eventually, out of self-preservation, I decided I just needed to take care of myself. Certainly, I became very self-centered--most people would call it selfish, probably.
I love my parents very much. We've grown a lot closer in these past ten years. I'm very grateful for that. They've lived long enough for that to happen. And I've grown out of my resentment enough to mature and learn to nurture a better relationship with them. But, I had a hard and lonely childhood too. The consequence of that was that I expected most people would disappoint me. I didn't know what a caring relationship looked like, so I was clumsy and clueless about my own role in one. Eventually, out of self-preservation, I decided I just needed to take care of myself. Certainly, I became very self-centered--most people would call it selfish, probably.
One day, Doug (my husband, who wasn't my husband then, and wouldn't be for several years) and I were sitting on the couch talking together. We were in my apartment. He asked me if I wanted a glass of water. I said "Yes" and went to get one for myself. He leaned toward me, looked me in the eyes with the warmest expression I'd ever seen, and said "I'll get it for you." He did. And he delivered it to me gently, with love. I can still see his expression. It probably sounds kind of cheesy. But that simple loving gesture was so huge to me. It touched my heart and softened the armour I'd placed around it.
Over our years together, I've learned to truly enjoy doing loving little things for him (and others) too. It took some time for me to risk opening myself up in this way. To me, it did feel like a risk. But gradually, I grew to know better what a caring and nurturing relationship looked and felt like.
Continue to do those little things like plug in your husbands wireless headphones. Accept with sincere gratitude the little things he does for you. That mutual exchange is so important to someone who doesn't really know what love looks like. Chances are good that those little things will mean more to him than you can ever know. It will probably have a greater impact on you than you could ever imagine. And, speaking from experience, it's a gift to your children.
Karen James
Karen James
Sarah Thompson
There are lots of things I have wanted to add to this thread. I have a lovely marriage that has grown beautifully as my children have taught me to look inside myself for the change that has to happen.
But a funny thing happened on the way. I keep reading these posts, and growing *more* in my own marriage. Tonight, on my birthday, my husband and I were sitting by the woodstove and having a cognac (now he's off playing Worms Armageddon with the boys), and talking about some of the changes that are coming. I'm in a practitioner program to do work that I am passionate about, and he is in transition from the career that he wanted and worked so hard for, to the next thing now that the last dream is no longer the right dream. I realized that I am SO EXCITED to anticipate generating some income for the family so that he can have more flexibility. I am SO GRATEFUL for the times uncountable that he has gotten up in the dark and scraped the ice off the windshield to work outside even when it wasn't fun, so that I could be home with our sons. The hours he spent cleaning and organizing the house so that I would be safe when I came home from my transplant. The tears he shed in the dark so that I wouldn't know how hard, how terrifying, it was to wonder if his wife would ever come home from the hospital. The hours he spent with a baby in a sling under a guitar, juggling a bottle and a four year old who needed a security and a promise he didn't know he could give them.
So thank you, everyone who has contributed here, for reminding me good it is. And let me pay forward as much as I can, in affirming that there is always something warm and wonderful to find in a partner.
I hope that wasn't too corny?
Sarah
tandos mama
There is such beauty and hope in the stories here--even in the ones that describe current struggle, because the decision to write, to ask for help, suggests a way forward. Thank you to everyone who writes, and to those generous mothers who take the time to thoughtfully respond. And especially thank you to you, Sandra, for launching this ship and keeping it afloat.
I know that my life is indescribably better for the time I spend reading here. When I began reading 8 years ago I hoped that my kids would be happier because of my efforts, but I never imagined that my relationship with my husband would also flourish. I have a real partner because I'm more able to be his partner.
I've also come to treasure things like the pile of dirty socks that I might have complained about. Instead my husband has time to rebuild a little sailboat with our kids and to introduce them to his joy in being on the water. He's also got time to build a milking stanchion for my cow and to enclose our patio to keep my chickens (and their poop) in the yard. I love our very messy kitchen because that's where my son confidently made smoothies for the first time for himself and his sister. It's where preparing food is an act of love whether its a homegrown dinner or snacks from the nearest gas station. I keep meaning to photograph the soles of our bare feet--as likely to be covered in glitter as dog hair. Our lives are rich with room for all the projects, animals, and adventures that each one of us takes on. There's a feeling of abundance that I think our friends feel too when they spend time in our home.
I've also come to treasure things like the pile of dirty socks that I might have complained about. Instead my husband has time to rebuild a little sailboat with our kids and to introduce them to his joy in being on the water. He's also got time to build a milking stanchion for my cow and to enclose our patio to keep my chickens (and their poop) in the yard. I love our very messy kitchen because that's where my son confidently made smoothies for the first time for himself and his sister. It's where preparing food is an act of love whether its a homegrown dinner or snacks from the nearest gas station. I keep meaning to photograph the soles of our bare feet--as likely to be covered in glitter as dog hair. Our lives are rich with room for all the projects, animals, and adventures that each one of us takes on. There's a feeling of abundance that I think our friends feel too when they spend time in our home.
I've learned, over time, that intellectual understanding isn't comparable to what we learn through experience--it's a bit like trying to learn to swim by reading the manual. What makes our happiness as a family is not what we get from each other, but what we generously give.
Many thanks to everyone here for giving so generously!
Tori
sarah hurn
I've stumbled on a great marriage resource is at www.alturtle.com if anyone is interested in some captivating reading or experiencing some hard times in their relationship. I'm not sure if it has been mentioned before, but I highly recommend it.
This is a quote from an article I was reading tonight:
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
"After many years of working with couples, I have come to this conclusion. It takes two people to start a Marriage, or an intimate partnership. It takes both to decide to divorce and carry the splitting through to its end. But it takes only one of them to lead the way into a great relationship. The idea is that either one of you can stop a divorce from happening. This idea has, over the years, proved to be my most upsetting contribution to couples work. More people have written me about how angry the thought makes them. Great! Get angry, but please engage this idea, and its truth"
It reminded me of some of the wise marriage advice I have heard from this group.
I hope it's of use to someone out there, it has been for me :)
Sarah
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Thursday, November 26, 2015, 2:58 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
I have a request to post this anonymously.
________________________________________________________
I've never posted to a email list group before and I'd like for this to be anonymous so I'm hoping you can post this to Always Learning for me, I know it's not specifically unschooling but repairing this marriage will make the difference between whether we can unschool or not and I don't know anywhere better to help me get back to a positive place and help me see where my thinking is stuck in distancing rather than bonding and repairing places.
Our boys are 5 and 21 months. I've been reading about and trying out unschooling principles since our oldest was about 6 months old. I have always loved to learn new things and have actively pursued many varied interests so academic unschooling made perfect sense to me from the beginning. It took quite a bit longer for me to really begin to understand the importance of the relationships along with everything else but it's coming much easier to view my real children and interact with Them instead of the Imaginary children I might sometimes wish I had.
It's still really hard for me to look at my husband and see Him and not the Man-I-Wished-I'd-Married (or rather how he falls short of that).
Earlier this year we went through a really rough patch that hit me out of the blue and made me suddenly afraid that our marriage might not only not last forever but not even last the year. He assures me that he doesn't want to leave but I'm finding my thoughts full of awful things like I never really loved him and I married him for the wrong reasons and I should have known from the beginning that I shouldn't have married him, let alone had two children with him. I have made good enough progress on being kind that I've managed to avoid saying any of that out loud and I've managed to avoid saying anything even in anger or hurt that I'd wished I could take back.
Here's the main point of my question: I'm not an explosive person and am far more prone to not saying things that I maybe should rather than hurt someone with my words. Are there any times that complaining to a spouse about their behavior and how it makes me feel are actually helpful? Or is that pretty much always putting more distance between us and would be better served to find ways to let go? More specifically he is very self centered and selfish with his time typically spending less than 5 hours a week playing with his boys and I'm lucky if I get any focused attention at all.
_____________
End of the quote.
If there are new members here who want to jump up and recommend divorce, please don’t.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
That site has TONS of great stuff.
Here’s a chart, and I don’t know all of his terminology, but look at the grey box leading to the green box:
http://www.alturtle.com/Posters/MapofRel(2008)%20Color.pdf
THAT is where unschooling—leaning to be more accepting and peaceful and interested and interesting—can lead you to a peaceful place that can “last forever” as he says on his graph. That’s where Keith and I are. That’s where the couples are, already, even though they’re young, that are in the photographs in this article:
http://sandradodd.com/betterpartner
Unschooling helped them. Other things, did too, surely. Other things helped them get to unschooling, but they have less to fight about and to worry about because of their relationship with their children.
Other couples who have shared their successes in being more supportive and at peace are here:
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
Sandra
Here’s a chart, and I don’t know all of his terminology, but look at the grey box leading to the green box:
http://www.alturtle.com/Posters/MapofRel(2008)%20Color.pdf
THAT is where unschooling—leaning to be more accepting and peaceful and interested and interesting—can lead you to a peaceful place that can “last forever” as he says on his graph. That’s where Keith and I are. That’s where the couples are, already, even though they’re young, that are in the photographs in this article:
http://sandradodd.com/betterpartner
Unschooling helped them. Other things, did too, surely. Other things helped them get to unschooling, but they have less to fight about and to worry about because of their relationship with their children.
Other couples who have shared their successes in being more supportive and at peace are here:
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
From Sarah Hurn quoting Al Turtle.
-=-The idea is that either one of you can stop a divorce from happening. This idea has, over the years, proved to be my most upsetting contribution to couples work. More people have written me about how angry the thought makes them. -=-
People get mad at me for rejecting their bad ideas in discussions, or for asking them to shush their mainstream advice. That’s tob e expected.
But the REAL anger, and the deep insults, have come when I’ve supported marriage, and said that women should be super nice to the father of their children, if he’s still around, so he WILL still be around. MAN, has that pissed off some cavalier and reckless unschooling moms who then went on to divorce and to continue to badmouth me.
And a couple who were divorced have come back for a second pass if they find me promoting peaceful marriages and talking about how beneficial it is to children, to have their families intact for life. I’ve been insulted again, out on facebook, or behind my back, about suggesting (WRONGLY, they assure their readers) that it matters to children.
Well, there’s this evidence:
http://www.amazon.com/Unexpected-Legacy-Divorce-Landmark-Study/dp/0786886161
And there’s personal knowledge.
And there’s denial of the parents, who want to think it won’t hurt, so they say it won’t hurt, and the kids agree with them because they feel sorry for them, or don’t want to have the conversation continue, or they’re pissed off and are kind of saying “whatever” to the parents who seemed to have said “whatever” to the kids.
There as been more and stronger anger directed toward me for trying to help people maintain their marriages than there has been about ALL of the unschooling and parenting stuff combined.
Sandra
-=-The idea is that either one of you can stop a divorce from happening. This idea has, over the years, proved to be my most upsetting contribution to couples work. More people have written me about how angry the thought makes them. -=-
People get mad at me for rejecting their bad ideas in discussions, or for asking them to shush their mainstream advice. That’s tob e expected.
But the REAL anger, and the deep insults, have come when I’ve supported marriage, and said that women should be super nice to the father of their children, if he’s still around, so he WILL still be around. MAN, has that pissed off some cavalier and reckless unschooling moms who then went on to divorce and to continue to badmouth me.
And a couple who were divorced have come back for a second pass if they find me promoting peaceful marriages and talking about how beneficial it is to children, to have their families intact for life. I’ve been insulted again, out on facebook, or behind my back, about suggesting (WRONGLY, they assure their readers) that it matters to children.
Well, there’s this evidence:
http://www.amazon.com/Unexpected-Legacy-Divorce-Landmark-Study/dp/0786886161
And there’s personal knowledge.
And there’s denial of the parents, who want to think it won’t hurt, so they say it won’t hurt, and the kids agree with them because they feel sorry for them, or don’t want to have the conversation continue, or they’re pissed off and are kind of saying “whatever” to the parents who seemed to have said “whatever” to the kids.
There as been more and stronger anger directed toward me for trying to help people maintain their marriages than there has been about ALL of the unschooling and parenting stuff combined.
Sandra