Unschooling as a Product
Sandra Dodd
> How can list-owners improve-----------
> their
> "product" if they can't receive some criticism once in a while?
That quote was from a post that was not sent on to the
unschoolingdiscussion list but was returned by one of the moderators.
Just a couple of weeks ago, I complained to Pam Sorooshian (by phone,
so I can't cut and paste what I said) that when someone wrote she
would look into my links for a half hour that evening, it was like
people put off vacuum cleaner salesmen, or say "Well show me, but I'm
still going to the Kirby dealer later."
It kinda makes me cranky for people to treat me like a sales lady,
but probably the worst part is that they expect me to treat them as a
sales lady should treat a potential customer.
Somewhere in there they don't get the fact that I don't make a
commission when someone decides to unschool. I'm not selling a
curriculum. The owners of the Unschooling Discussion list don't get
dividends at the end of the year proportional to the number of people
who are on that list.
Unschooling, and the discussions from which unschooling understanding
rises, are both PROCESSES, not products.
I have more to say, but I'm just now feeling well enough to do some
laundry and dishes after a week of conference and three days of being
sick.
Anyone with more clarity or ideas should jump in. I need to process
through the feeling that people think I'm a rude saleswoman and that
they'll (what, report me to the management? Go to another
store?????!!!!)
Sandra
Diane Bentzen
> Anyone with more clarity or ideas should jump in. IYeah, go to another store. (If you're not nicer to me,
> need to process
> through the feeling that people think I'm a rude
> saleswoman and that
> they'll (what, report me to the management? Go to
> another store?????!!!!)
I'm gonna go get CURRICULUM! HA! That'll show you!)
Hey, sorry babe, but you live in another state. I'll
never have the slightest impact from your
choices--it's between you (probably plural) and your
kids.
They don't necessarily get that it's not about you,
it's not about labels, and it's not a competition.
It's about them and their kids.
They and their kids are a team, and if one side loses,
the whole team loses. The goal is a win-win, and all
the advisers are only on the sidelines, including the
homeschooling lists.
It's a mindset.
:-) Diane
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Yeah, go to another store. (If you're not nicer to me,
I'm gonna go get CURRICULUM! HA! That'll show you!)-=-
There is an element of that.
Some seem to think it would hurt me, somehow if they went and bought
a big curriculum.
And curriculum salesmen have their patter down. LOTS of
homeschooling dads went into the curriculum selling business so they
could get their own family's curriculum free and "not have to work"
but could live off homeschooling, fifteen years ago. I'm sure still,
now, at the big state or Christian conferences (sometimes that's the
same thing, when something is called a state conference but it's run
by and for Christian homeschoolers) the guys selling that stuff are
dads of homeschooling families.
They will sell it to you in five MINUTES. They DO care if you buy.
They want something. They don't care if you like it later, they've
gotten what they wanted.
-=-Hey, sorry babe, but you live in another state. I'll
never have the slightest impact from your
choices--it's between you (probably plural) and your
kids.-=-
Even if they lived next door to me their nattery indecisive opinion
wouldn't have the slightest impact on the happiness at my house.
Those critical of unschooling hurt themselves worse than they can
ever begin to hurt unschoolers. They show their negativity and their
ignorance.
The opinion of a hundred gathered together can't touch my kids'
lives. They can't make me doubt that what has happened at our house
in the past 20 years since Kirby was born actually happened.
Attachment parenting and nursing and playing with them and listening
to them and not making them go to school... it DID happen, and the
results wake up here every morning.
I could have kept it secret, but for one thing it's easier to do with
others to brainstorm with, and with other families to watch for
ideas. That's been great. The typical days collection is one of my
favorites:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
I was doing penance, at first, and was going to help people for three
or four years (I used to know the number but I've forgotten) to make
up for having talked my cousin Nada out of homeschooling her first
child, when I was childless. But it was fun, and I kept on, and was
invited to speak and I started meeting more families I really liked.
They can't take that away from me.
When AOL's homeschooling forum went small and stunted and was run by
people who weren't even homeschoolers, and a great deal of what we
used to be able to get to was gone, I realized that I really wanted
to find ways to make the good stuff available. So I experimented
with various little free webpages (some of them are still out there
because they provided no way at all to delete the pages), and
eventually got a good site where I could collect things.
They can't take that away from me.
Both yahoogroups and googlegroups provide simple ways to create and
maintain discussion lists which people can read by e-mail, digest-by-
e-mail, or at the websites. I've kept this list for nearly five
years, and UnschoolingDiscussion, whose name and ownership have
changed a few times, is old now, seven and a half years old now (and
moved to googlegroups).
They can't take that away.
Yet there are a few people, a handful, who WANT to take those things,
or change them, or claim them.
They can't.
They can't have my birthday.
They can't have my husband.
They can't have my computer, even.
They can't be me.
-=-They and their kids are a team, and if one side loses,
the whole team loses. The goal is a win-win, and all
the advisers are only on the sidelines, including the
homeschooling lists.-=-
YES.
They can take small and large steps to make their own lives better,
but there seem to be a few in each season who think (in some
unhealthy way) that if they can only prove the happy families wrong
that the curve will change and their family's score will be better.
It's fascinating like a wreck.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm gonna go get CURRICULUM! HA! That'll show you!)-=-
There is an element of that.
Some seem to think it would hurt me, somehow if they went and bought
a big curriculum.
And curriculum salesmen have their patter down. LOTS of
homeschooling dads went into the curriculum selling business so they
could get their own family's curriculum free and "not have to work"
but could live off homeschooling, fifteen years ago. I'm sure still,
now, at the big state or Christian conferences (sometimes that's the
same thing, when something is called a state conference but it's run
by and for Christian homeschoolers) the guys selling that stuff are
dads of homeschooling families.
They will sell it to you in five MINUTES. They DO care if you buy.
They want something. They don't care if you like it later, they've
gotten what they wanted.
-=-Hey, sorry babe, but you live in another state. I'll
never have the slightest impact from your
choices--it's between you (probably plural) and your
kids.-=-
Even if they lived next door to me their nattery indecisive opinion
wouldn't have the slightest impact on the happiness at my house.
Those critical of unschooling hurt themselves worse than they can
ever begin to hurt unschoolers. They show their negativity and their
ignorance.
The opinion of a hundred gathered together can't touch my kids'
lives. They can't make me doubt that what has happened at our house
in the past 20 years since Kirby was born actually happened.
Attachment parenting and nursing and playing with them and listening
to them and not making them go to school... it DID happen, and the
results wake up here every morning.
I could have kept it secret, but for one thing it's easier to do with
others to brainstorm with, and with other families to watch for
ideas. That's been great. The typical days collection is one of my
favorites:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
I was doing penance, at first, and was going to help people for three
or four years (I used to know the number but I've forgotten) to make
up for having talked my cousin Nada out of homeschooling her first
child, when I was childless. But it was fun, and I kept on, and was
invited to speak and I started meeting more families I really liked.
They can't take that away from me.
When AOL's homeschooling forum went small and stunted and was run by
people who weren't even homeschoolers, and a great deal of what we
used to be able to get to was gone, I realized that I really wanted
to find ways to make the good stuff available. So I experimented
with various little free webpages (some of them are still out there
because they provided no way at all to delete the pages), and
eventually got a good site where I could collect things.
They can't take that away from me.
Both yahoogroups and googlegroups provide simple ways to create and
maintain discussion lists which people can read by e-mail, digest-by-
e-mail, or at the websites. I've kept this list for nearly five
years, and UnschoolingDiscussion, whose name and ownership have
changed a few times, is old now, seven and a half years old now (and
moved to googlegroups).
They can't take that away.
Yet there are a few people, a handful, who WANT to take those things,
or change them, or claim them.
They can't.
They can't have my birthday.
They can't have my husband.
They can't have my computer, even.
They can't be me.
-=-They and their kids are a team, and if one side loses,
the whole team loses. The goal is a win-win, and all
the advisers are only on the sidelines, including the
homeschooling lists.-=-
YES.
They can take small and large steps to make their own lives better,
but there seem to be a few in each season who think (in some
unhealthy way) that if they can only prove the happy families wrong
that the curve will change and their family's score will be better.
It's fascinating like a wreck.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kerrin Taylor
<<<<Yet there are a few people, a handful, who WANT to take those things,
or change them, or claim them.
They can't.>>>>
It IS only a very small handful.
There are many, many more on these lists, who have learned and grown and
grasped unschooling. Some of us with speed and grace, some struggling to
hang on to old ideas before finally letting go.
When I'm feeling bad about something I've done or said to one of my kids, or
I feel vaguely wrong about how I'm unschooling, I read here and it comes
clear again. I get refreshed and energised.
I love to have this place where it's assumed that the best think I can do is
love and help my kids, to be honest with and supportive to them, to be their
ally in whatever they choose to pursue.
Kerrin.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/447 - Release Date: 13/09/2006
or change them, or claim them.
They can't.>>>>
It IS only a very small handful.
There are many, many more on these lists, who have learned and grown and
grasped unschooling. Some of us with speed and grace, some struggling to
hang on to old ideas before finally letting go.
When I'm feeling bad about something I've done or said to one of my kids, or
I feel vaguely wrong about how I'm unschooling, I read here and it comes
clear again. I get refreshed and energised.
I love to have this place where it's assumed that the best think I can do is
love and help my kids, to be honest with and supportive to them, to be their
ally in whatever they choose to pursue.
Kerrin.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/447 - Release Date: 13/09/2006
[email protected]
Hi Sandra,
Sorry you are feeling worn out. Let's face it, in our society almost everything is set up as product and sales. And some people simply Don't Get It - and maybe never will. John Holt talked about Hippopotamus questions. When people would ask questions that had no connection to what he was talking about. They just wanted to get attention directed back to themselves so they could talk about how un/homeschooling wouldn't work.
Guess you surely know by now there are plenty of people that aren't going to understand, or even try to understand unschooling. It makes them too afraid, to face the fact that the whole structure that they know and strongly believe in doesn't even need to exist for learning and growth to happen. It would be a big jump for many people.
On the other hand, sometimes people take that idea, let it simmer and eventually work it, and work it, and decide that they can entertain making some change in their view of education.
So here's a hug (((((((((((((((((Sandra)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Hope you feel strong and well soon!
Love,
Connie
Who has also been put-down, misunderstood, and attacked thro the years - :-)
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sorry you are feeling worn out. Let's face it, in our society almost everything is set up as product and sales. And some people simply Don't Get It - and maybe never will. John Holt talked about Hippopotamus questions. When people would ask questions that had no connection to what he was talking about. They just wanted to get attention directed back to themselves so they could talk about how un/homeschooling wouldn't work.
Guess you surely know by now there are plenty of people that aren't going to understand, or even try to understand unschooling. It makes them too afraid, to face the fact that the whole structure that they know and strongly believe in doesn't even need to exist for learning and growth to happen. It would be a big jump for many people.
On the other hand, sometimes people take that idea, let it simmer and eventually work it, and work it, and decide that they can entertain making some change in their view of education.
So here's a hug (((((((((((((((((Sandra)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Hope you feel strong and well soon!
Love,
Connie
Who has also been put-down, misunderstood, and attacked thro the years - :-)
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sorry you are feeling worn out. Let's face it, in our society
almost everything is set up as product and sales. And some people
simply Don't Get It - and maybe never will.-=-
I'm not feeling worn out, I'm feeling really energized.
The more energy and the more activity, the more resentment I think I
have for people who treat me like a high school sales girl.
I've been thinking about product vs. process a lot in the past few
days. What we're doing is so most definitely *process* that someone
who comes along treating it like product totally messes up the process.
I defend people's processes. <g>
Another product thought I've had concerns the types of unschooling
and homeschooling sites that are out there and why they're out
there. If one is connected with a magazine, then the magazine has
an interest in luring a quantity of people, not a quality of people.
They will not want very radical ideas there, or at least will balance
them other kinds of radical ideas because the baseline is is that
they have a product. Their primary process is to gain readership,
paid or otherwise. Numbers DO count, because they need stats to show
advertisers, and because the publishers have mortgages and car payments.
In a situation like Joyce's page, or mine, we don't have to
compromise or give equal time to another philosophy, because we're
giving information away at our own expense, not at the expense of
glossy-full-page-international-advertising.
I think magazines can be great, because not everyone has the
internet, and it's a way for people who prefer print media or depend
on it to get some current inspiration, and also some awareness of
what resources they COULD buy or can buy if they want to. And lots
of the things advertised are just fun music and toy and art things.
That's cool. But still, advertisers get opinions about content and
they can vote with their feet (figuratively speaking).
So my volunteer time has to do with process of ideas, or parenting,
of inspiring people and pointing out where things look like shaky
justifications. That's what I like to do and that's what some
people want. I'm still somehow surprised every time someone objects
so strongly, like I stepped into their path in the dark and surprised
them, especially when they came to a place I either set up or that I
help maintain or where I'm a regular.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
almost everything is set up as product and sales. And some people
simply Don't Get It - and maybe never will.-=-
I'm not feeling worn out, I'm feeling really energized.
The more energy and the more activity, the more resentment I think I
have for people who treat me like a high school sales girl.
I've been thinking about product vs. process a lot in the past few
days. What we're doing is so most definitely *process* that someone
who comes along treating it like product totally messes up the process.
I defend people's processes. <g>
Another product thought I've had concerns the types of unschooling
and homeschooling sites that are out there and why they're out
there. If one is connected with a magazine, then the magazine has
an interest in luring a quantity of people, not a quality of people.
They will not want very radical ideas there, or at least will balance
them other kinds of radical ideas because the baseline is is that
they have a product. Their primary process is to gain readership,
paid or otherwise. Numbers DO count, because they need stats to show
advertisers, and because the publishers have mortgages and car payments.
In a situation like Joyce's page, or mine, we don't have to
compromise or give equal time to another philosophy, because we're
giving information away at our own expense, not at the expense of
glossy-full-page-international-advertising.
I think magazines can be great, because not everyone has the
internet, and it's a way for people who prefer print media or depend
on it to get some current inspiration, and also some awareness of
what resources they COULD buy or can buy if they want to. And lots
of the things advertised are just fun music and toy and art things.
That's cool. But still, advertisers get opinions about content and
they can vote with their feet (figuratively speaking).
So my volunteer time has to do with process of ideas, or parenting,
of inspiring people and pointing out where things look like shaky
justifications. That's what I like to do and that's what some
people want. I'm still somehow surprised every time someone objects
so strongly, like I stepped into their path in the dark and surprised
them, especially when they came to a place I either set up or that I
help maintain or where I'm a regular.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cindy Fox
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
specifically like this. It really makes me think as I certainly did
view unschooling as a product until I 'got' it more thoroughly and
for me that took a while because there was no literalness to it. I
am such a literal person that I only knows what I know until I knows
something different. I'm still working on quanitfying uncshooling
for my own understanding because that is simply my nature and how I
am built, but I try to keep that inside. :)
Because I have been so misundersood myself throughout my life, I try
my best to consider that everyone is doing the best that they can
with what they have. When they give feedback, I accept that is
where they are at the moment and that it is more about themselves
than it is at all about me, do I can listen mindfully (most of the
time) and acknowledge their feelings without agreeing. Or go away
from them if they are so loud that I can't hear myself. Then I can
remind myself of what I feel and think and let go of any frustration
that others can't see my point.
After all, frustration seems to come from false expectations and
that's something I have come a long way in with my family, so why
not extend that gift to others. :) The gift of accepting them as
they are.
I still have hope for some people I know to see the light and go
from eclectic to unschooling, but I may be totally wrong about
that. Either way, by accepting and flowing along with them, gently
pointing things out along the way, I hope to be a long term
influence, on the kids anyway, if not the parents. :) I've spent
too much of my life blocking the doorway, demanding that people
prove their acceptance of what I say before allowing them access and
in my mind, I try to keep the advice of a past mentor who showed me
you can be gentle with others while still not changing your own
mind. ;)
Personally, I like to get feedback. I don't always do what people
recommend. In fact, it depends quite a lot on where the feedback
comes from and what it entails as to whether I take that as valuable
input to do the exact opposite! :)
Take care, c.
wrote:
> What we're doing is so most definitely *process* that someoneI like this differentiation and I've never seen it pointed out
> who comes along treating it like product totally messes up the
> process.
specifically like this. It really makes me think as I certainly did
view unschooling as a product until I 'got' it more thoroughly and
for me that took a while because there was no literalness to it. I
am such a literal person that I only knows what I know until I knows
something different. I'm still working on quanitfying uncshooling
for my own understanding because that is simply my nature and how I
am built, but I try to keep that inside. :)
Because I have been so misundersood myself throughout my life, I try
my best to consider that everyone is doing the best that they can
with what they have. When they give feedback, I accept that is
where they are at the moment and that it is more about themselves
than it is at all about me, do I can listen mindfully (most of the
time) and acknowledge their feelings without agreeing. Or go away
from them if they are so loud that I can't hear myself. Then I can
remind myself of what I feel and think and let go of any frustration
that others can't see my point.
After all, frustration seems to come from false expectations and
that's something I have come a long way in with my family, so why
not extend that gift to others. :) The gift of accepting them as
they are.
I still have hope for some people I know to see the light and go
from eclectic to unschooling, but I may be totally wrong about
that. Either way, by accepting and flowing along with them, gently
pointing things out along the way, I hope to be a long term
influence, on the kids anyway, if not the parents. :) I've spent
too much of my life blocking the doorway, demanding that people
prove their acceptance of what I say before allowing them access and
in my mind, I try to keep the advice of a past mentor who showed me
you can be gentle with others while still not changing your own
mind. ;)
Personally, I like to get feedback. I don't always do what people
recommend. In fact, it depends quite a lot on where the feedback
comes from and what it entails as to whether I take that as valuable
input to do the exact opposite! :)
Take care, c.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I like this differentiation and I've never seen it pointed out
specifically like this. It really makes me think as I certainly did
view unschooling as a product until I 'got' it more thoroughly and
for me that took a while because there was no literalness to it. -=-
I love this statement and I also don't understand it.
"No literalness" like what?
(specify what it didn't have. ha! No, seriously, like what?)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
specifically like this. It really makes me think as I certainly did
view unschooling as a product until I 'got' it more thoroughly and
for me that took a while because there was no literalness to it. -=-
I love this statement and I also don't understand it.
"No literalness" like what?
(specify what it didn't have. ha! No, seriously, like what?)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cindy Fox
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
like specifics and exactness. This may be what you don't like about
product vs. process, but I think a structure could be applied to
either.
For example, NVC often gets criticized because of its 'formulaic'
method, but it does give a clear starting point that can then be
adjusted and modified. This allows discussion of specifics for
understanding and acceptance or rejection. That sort of specific or
literalness is what I have been looking for in Unschooling.
I recently feel like the ball is moving more quickly for me or
perhaps it is a result of what you were referring to on the L&L list
as redefining pathways in how we think. Maybe my pathways are
undergoing construction. :)
Other things you've said lately about working towards things rather
than seeing only two choices have also been speaking to me. Having
goals and making choices that move us towards those goals is a
specific that I can take, put into practice and get better at.
I wonder, have these things been said all along and I can only now
hear them, even though I've been listening with all my might or have
the right words just finally come along for me to hear?
If there weren't a google of messages on this list, I would go back
and re-read them all. :) I may still go back and read some old ones
just to see if I see them differently now. :)
In any case, I am certainly feeling progres in my sorting and
ordering the concepts I am learning and I continue to refine and
comprehend as well as I can.
Always Learning! :)
Thanks!
c.
wrote:
> I love this statement and I also don't understand it.No literalness as in 'do this and that will happen'. In general, I
> "No literalness" like what?
like specifics and exactness. This may be what you don't like about
product vs. process, but I think a structure could be applied to
either.
For example, NVC often gets criticized because of its 'formulaic'
method, but it does give a clear starting point that can then be
adjusted and modified. This allows discussion of specifics for
understanding and acceptance or rejection. That sort of specific or
literalness is what I have been looking for in Unschooling.
I recently feel like the ball is moving more quickly for me or
perhaps it is a result of what you were referring to on the L&L list
as redefining pathways in how we think. Maybe my pathways are
undergoing construction. :)
Other things you've said lately about working towards things rather
than seeing only two choices have also been speaking to me. Having
goals and making choices that move us towards those goals is a
specific that I can take, put into practice and get better at.
I wonder, have these things been said all along and I can only now
hear them, even though I've been listening with all my might or have
the right words just finally come along for me to hear?
If there weren't a google of messages on this list, I would go back
and re-read them all. :) I may still go back and read some old ones
just to see if I see them differently now. :)
In any case, I am certainly feeling progres in my sorting and
ordering the concepts I am learning and I continue to refine and
comprehend as well as I can.
Always Learning! :)
Thanks!
c.
Sandra Dodd
-=-No literalness as in 'do this and that will happen'. In general, I
like specifics and exactness. This may be what you don't like about
product vs. process, but I think a structure could be applied to
either.
-=-
Oh!
http://sandradodd.com/checklist
This might be as close as I've come to structure. <g>
http://sandradodd.com/wishlists
That might be helpful for structured types too.
How about this: Those who do like outlines and structures (I have
some in-person friends who twitch mightily at the way I do and
explain and discuss things in areas other than unschooling, so I know
intellectually if not emotionally of the need), what are some
unschooling things that ARE good for people who like schedules and
structure? Are there articles on my site or Joyce's or elsewhere
that would be good? I could link them in one place and when people
come by who say "What is all this insubstantial murk!?" we can send
them to the list.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
like specifics and exactness. This may be what you don't like about
product vs. process, but I think a structure could be applied to
either.
-=-
Oh!
http://sandradodd.com/checklist
This might be as close as I've come to structure. <g>
http://sandradodd.com/wishlists
That might be helpful for structured types too.
How about this: Those who do like outlines and structures (I have
some in-person friends who twitch mightily at the way I do and
explain and discuss things in areas other than unschooling, so I know
intellectually if not emotionally of the need), what are some
unschooling things that ARE good for people who like schedules and
structure? Are there articles on my site or Joyce's or elsewhere
that would be good? I could link them in one place and when people
come by who say "What is all this insubstantial murk!?" we can send
them to the list.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-For example, NVC often gets criticized because of its 'formulaic'
method, but it does give a clear starting point that can then be
adjusted and modified. This allows discussion of specifics for
understanding and acceptance or rejection. That sort of specific or
literalness is what I have been looking for in Unschooling. -=-
Ah. NVC gags me. I've tried a few times to read some more because
people I like and respect can really get into that, but every time I
try it gags me again.
-=-I recently feel like the ball is moving more quickly for me or
perhaps it is a result of what you were referring to on the L&L list
as redefining pathways in how we think.-=-
That was someone else's quote, referring to "What the bleep do we
know," a source that also gags me. I don't think people need to
bathe their brains in channelled messages from 40,000 year old
warriors (what the bleep is THAT!?), but they need to consciously and
mindfully and logically CHOOSE what to do in the second.
Some people see choice as some kind of "what do you want to be when
you grown up" one single big choice. I see it as do I keep typing
this, or should I go and start the dishwasher and make some tea and
then come back to this? Should Holly and I drive 90 miles to get a
kitten my nephew wants to give us, or should I wait a week until he
can come down here? There are other things we could do on that trip
north. Monday would be a good day. I need to make phone calls.
Flexibility and awareness are valuable to me. I like to see those in
others. My husband had an SCA squire (who's now a knight, but it
wasn't a good match) who couldn't GET that people wanted him to be
flexible and aware. He wanted a checklist of things to do, and
wanted someone else to tell him when he had done them sufficiently to
quit and go on to another thing. Bad match. Keith wanted him to
figure out what to do and quit when it was done.
-=-Having
goals and making choices that move us towards those goals is a
specific that I can take, put into practice and get better at.-=
If the goal is something physical or temporal, though (longterm, I
mean, like "become a gold medal skier" or "move to Texas by 2008),
decisions made with a view toward reaching those goals might make
unschooling dull or unworkable. If making baskets of pineneedles
wouldn't get one to Texas, then it might be rejected as an unworthy
activity.
Marty made a hatband of pine needles last time he camped in the
mountains. It's beautiful. I tried to photograph it but my camera
doesn't do closeups well. It goes around the hat twice. That's
more process than product.
If unschooling is the goal, then looking at maps of Texas, checking
one's finances, seeing what's required locally before moving,
watching movies about Texas, learning to change tires or repair the
car, reupholstering a favorite chair--all those can fulfill learning
AND Texas goals.
Flexibility. Broadness of base. Expansion of scope, not narrow-beam
vision.
-=-I wonder, have these things been said all along and I can only now
hear them, even though I've been listening with all my might or have
the right words just finally come along for me to hear?-=-
Half and half, maybe. I listened to the Peaceful Parenting tape
because I was doing a talk called Big Noisy Peace. There were some
things there I hadn't said for a while, and I repeated some stories
in that other talk. Some people (Diana Jenner, especially) swear by
that recorded session, but few people are easily capable of listening
to cassette tapes anymore, and it's not on CD. The new one will be
on CD. So I'm not planning to order more copies of the Peaceful
Parenting after these last ones are sold. I have about fifteen.
http://sandradodd.com/tapes
I could use some money, too, so anyone feeling the need for other
forms of input, if you buy something I have a better chance of paying
off the print bill for the second printing of Moving a Puddle.
Charge card bill came. $1200 for books, and we brought in $405 at
the conference even counting used tie-dyed t-shirts @$5. <bwg>
But wait, that wasn't the question...
I think lately there's been lots of analytical talk about what helps
and what doesn't, and also that people go through levels of
understanding and receptiveness, and some things that are there won't
make sense to some people.
Joyce and I were mysteriously criticized two years ago (behind our
backs, on some other list) for having taught advanced unschooling.
First, we didn't. Or she didn't. But why the criticism? The first
and second Live and Learn conferences had lots of talks to appeal to
beginners. Turns out, though, there were few beginners there. So
for the Peabody/Boston conference, we were asked to do things
experienced unschoolers could use. I had planned three talks--
beginning, intermediate and advanced. It was really more like a
three part talk. Or would've been, but one of my spots was given to
someone else, so I combined the intermediate into the other two and
it wasn't as clearly done.
A few people (the same small few who squawk periodically, whose
squawking has caused other problems in the past, such as the closing
of the unschooling.com message boards) seem to want others to think
there is no such thing as advanced unschooling, that unschooling is
easy to understand, just don't use a curriculum, that's all, no more,
there are no experts, there's nothing to know, and no one can tell
you you can't do it or that you could do it better. WHY they would
want others to think that I don't know, unless they like to think
they know as much about it as anyone, as much as anyone possibly could.
Me, though, I've seen people do it for a few years and get stuck or
back out, because there were things they hadn't thought of, or they
had bought into some claim that it was fine for little kids but not
older kids. I've seen people try it and fail because the
organization of their home was more important than learning, and they
really NEEDED (they felt) to have the kids in school so they could
clean the house every day without kids around.
The process of knowing WHY one is unschooling is part of
unschooling. The first simple "She hates school" won't serve to
support and maintain ten years of parental involvement. New motives
and underpinnings need to be seen and embraced all along the way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
method, but it does give a clear starting point that can then be
adjusted and modified. This allows discussion of specifics for
understanding and acceptance or rejection. That sort of specific or
literalness is what I have been looking for in Unschooling. -=-
Ah. NVC gags me. I've tried a few times to read some more because
people I like and respect can really get into that, but every time I
try it gags me again.
-=-I recently feel like the ball is moving more quickly for me or
perhaps it is a result of what you were referring to on the L&L list
as redefining pathways in how we think.-=-
That was someone else's quote, referring to "What the bleep do we
know," a source that also gags me. I don't think people need to
bathe their brains in channelled messages from 40,000 year old
warriors (what the bleep is THAT!?), but they need to consciously and
mindfully and logically CHOOSE what to do in the second.
Some people see choice as some kind of "what do you want to be when
you grown up" one single big choice. I see it as do I keep typing
this, or should I go and start the dishwasher and make some tea and
then come back to this? Should Holly and I drive 90 miles to get a
kitten my nephew wants to give us, or should I wait a week until he
can come down here? There are other things we could do on that trip
north. Monday would be a good day. I need to make phone calls.
Flexibility and awareness are valuable to me. I like to see those in
others. My husband had an SCA squire (who's now a knight, but it
wasn't a good match) who couldn't GET that people wanted him to be
flexible and aware. He wanted a checklist of things to do, and
wanted someone else to tell him when he had done them sufficiently to
quit and go on to another thing. Bad match. Keith wanted him to
figure out what to do and quit when it was done.
-=-Having
goals and making choices that move us towards those goals is a
specific that I can take, put into practice and get better at.-=
If the goal is something physical or temporal, though (longterm, I
mean, like "become a gold medal skier" or "move to Texas by 2008),
decisions made with a view toward reaching those goals might make
unschooling dull or unworkable. If making baskets of pineneedles
wouldn't get one to Texas, then it might be rejected as an unworthy
activity.
Marty made a hatband of pine needles last time he camped in the
mountains. It's beautiful. I tried to photograph it but my camera
doesn't do closeups well. It goes around the hat twice. That's
more process than product.
If unschooling is the goal, then looking at maps of Texas, checking
one's finances, seeing what's required locally before moving,
watching movies about Texas, learning to change tires or repair the
car, reupholstering a favorite chair--all those can fulfill learning
AND Texas goals.
Flexibility. Broadness of base. Expansion of scope, not narrow-beam
vision.
-=-I wonder, have these things been said all along and I can only now
hear them, even though I've been listening with all my might or have
the right words just finally come along for me to hear?-=-
Half and half, maybe. I listened to the Peaceful Parenting tape
because I was doing a talk called Big Noisy Peace. There were some
things there I hadn't said for a while, and I repeated some stories
in that other talk. Some people (Diana Jenner, especially) swear by
that recorded session, but few people are easily capable of listening
to cassette tapes anymore, and it's not on CD. The new one will be
on CD. So I'm not planning to order more copies of the Peaceful
Parenting after these last ones are sold. I have about fifteen.
http://sandradodd.com/tapes
I could use some money, too, so anyone feeling the need for other
forms of input, if you buy something I have a better chance of paying
off the print bill for the second printing of Moving a Puddle.
Charge card bill came. $1200 for books, and we brought in $405 at
the conference even counting used tie-dyed t-shirts @$5. <bwg>
But wait, that wasn't the question...
I think lately there's been lots of analytical talk about what helps
and what doesn't, and also that people go through levels of
understanding and receptiveness, and some things that are there won't
make sense to some people.
Joyce and I were mysteriously criticized two years ago (behind our
backs, on some other list) for having taught advanced unschooling.
First, we didn't. Or she didn't. But why the criticism? The first
and second Live and Learn conferences had lots of talks to appeal to
beginners. Turns out, though, there were few beginners there. So
for the Peabody/Boston conference, we were asked to do things
experienced unschoolers could use. I had planned three talks--
beginning, intermediate and advanced. It was really more like a
three part talk. Or would've been, but one of my spots was given to
someone else, so I combined the intermediate into the other two and
it wasn't as clearly done.
A few people (the same small few who squawk periodically, whose
squawking has caused other problems in the past, such as the closing
of the unschooling.com message boards) seem to want others to think
there is no such thing as advanced unschooling, that unschooling is
easy to understand, just don't use a curriculum, that's all, no more,
there are no experts, there's nothing to know, and no one can tell
you you can't do it or that you could do it better. WHY they would
want others to think that I don't know, unless they like to think
they know as much about it as anyone, as much as anyone possibly could.
Me, though, I've seen people do it for a few years and get stuck or
back out, because there were things they hadn't thought of, or they
had bought into some claim that it was fine for little kids but not
older kids. I've seen people try it and fail because the
organization of their home was more important than learning, and they
really NEEDED (they felt) to have the kids in school so they could
clean the house every day without kids around.
The process of knowing WHY one is unschooling is part of
unschooling. The first simple "She hates school" won't serve to
support and maintain ten years of parental involvement. New motives
and underpinnings need to be seen and embraced all along the way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
If there weren't a google of messages on this list, I would go back
and re-read them all. :) I may still go back and read some old ones
just to see if I see them differently now. :)-=-
Well yahoo has changed their site and you can now search the message
archives pretty decently!
And if you get the list by e-mail there's a link at the bottom of
each now that will take you straight to the archives. I just went
and put in the word "specifics" and got 38 returns, back to 2001, and
each had three lines of text so you could see the word in the midst
of that to see if it was worth reading.
Then (this is SO COOL) I clicked on one, Kids and Spirituality, and
it brought up that post, and beneath it, the whole thread in which it
appeared. Perfect, huh?
So you can read old stuff without having to dig through too much riff
raff.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If there weren't a google of messages on this list, I would go back
and re-read them all. :) I may still go back and read some old ones
just to see if I see them differently now. :)-=-
Well yahoo has changed their site and you can now search the message
archives pretty decently!
And if you get the list by e-mail there's a link at the bottom of
each now that will take you straight to the archives. I just went
and put in the word "specifics" and got 38 returns, back to 2001, and
each had three lines of text so you could see the word in the midst
of that to see if it was worth reading.
Then (this is SO COOL) I clicked on one, Kids and Spirituality, and
it brought up that post, and beneath it, the whole thread in which it
appeared. Perfect, huh?
So you can read old stuff without having to dig through too much riff
raff.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cindy Fox
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/wishlist
There but for the want of an 's' :) (sorry about the googol
misspelling! I am a google addict and it has become my favorite
site in the world!). Wikipedia is up there, though.
Those lists do help, thanks! I had seen them before, but I see I
needed reminding!
When Richie first asked at age 4, "Why can't I stay home and you
teach me?", I just grinded mentally to a halt because I had no
reason to say no and yet no direction or even any idea of a
direction. I had simply never thought of it.
I'm glad I found unschooling so soon after that. It took a while to
grasp, but it was basically what was left after eliminating all the
options that didn't make sense. I still have those first few weeks
of columns and rows for tracking each 'subject' in each week. Yet,
as I kept looking at the state standards, and just watched my son as
I kept researching all the options out there, curriculums (and even
tracking by subject) seemed rather basic and arbitrary and I started
wondering why I even needed one. Once that was settled, it just made
radical unschooling the next logical step and that is the journey we
are on.
Sandra, to me, your site and Joyce's combined are a most powerful
source of information. I love Joyce's lists on each side and yours
on the left because I can so easily see the topics that interest me
the most. I do have to remember to keep going back, but the
discussion lists are taking all my time!
It all helps! No magic answers! :) Too bad, but just thinking of RU
as a process and a goal rather than a product is a very large,
helpful step for both my thinking and will help my explaining it to
others.
RU as a parenting style is easier for me to describe and work with
than 'unschooling' as a 'curriculum/philosophy' as it falls in many
homeschooling groups. To compare unschooling to other homeschooling
curriclums seems backwards. I see more similariy between RU and NVC
than I do between unschooling and any other homeschooling
philosophy. There are too many unspoken, assumed parenting pardigms
in any other homeschool method.
c.
wrote:
> http://sandradodd.com/checklistAre you messing with me? :) These links don't work. :)
> This might be as close as I've come to structure. <g>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/wishlists
> That might be helpful for structured types too.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/wishlist
There but for the want of an 's' :) (sorry about the googol
misspelling! I am a google addict and it has become my favorite
site in the world!). Wikipedia is up there, though.
Those lists do help, thanks! I had seen them before, but I see I
needed reminding!
When Richie first asked at age 4, "Why can't I stay home and you
teach me?", I just grinded mentally to a halt because I had no
reason to say no and yet no direction or even any idea of a
direction. I had simply never thought of it.
I'm glad I found unschooling so soon after that. It took a while to
grasp, but it was basically what was left after eliminating all the
options that didn't make sense. I still have those first few weeks
of columns and rows for tracking each 'subject' in each week. Yet,
as I kept looking at the state standards, and just watched my son as
I kept researching all the options out there, curriculums (and even
tracking by subject) seemed rather basic and arbitrary and I started
wondering why I even needed one. Once that was settled, it just made
radical unschooling the next logical step and that is the journey we
are on.
Sandra, to me, your site and Joyce's combined are a most powerful
source of information. I love Joyce's lists on each side and yours
on the left because I can so easily see the topics that interest me
the most. I do have to remember to keep going back, but the
discussion lists are taking all my time!
It all helps! No magic answers! :) Too bad, but just thinking of RU
as a process and a goal rather than a product is a very large,
helpful step for both my thinking and will help my explaining it to
others.
RU as a parenting style is easier for me to describe and work with
than 'unschooling' as a 'curriculum/philosophy' as it falls in many
homeschooling groups. To compare unschooling to other homeschooling
curriclums seems backwards. I see more similariy between RU and NVC
than I do between unschooling and any other homeschooling
philosophy. There are too many unspoken, assumed parenting pardigms
in any other homeschool method.
c.
Sandra Dodd
-=---- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/wishlist-=-
EEEEK!
VERY, very very sorry.
Thanks for giving good ones.
Interestingly...
I knew they were wrong and meant to change them, and also had
intended to put up pages on those easily-misguessed addresses (and
I'm going to, so those will work for some who don't read mail until
tomorrow or Monday)... and I got distracted by relatives, phone
calls, SCA stuff, my hot tub, Kirby waking up and talking to me...
Many activatious happenings seemed exciting at the time. <g>
I apologize to any and all who clicked bad links. My whole entire
fault.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wrote:
> http://sandradodd.com/checklistAre you messing with me? :) These links don't work. :)
> This might be as close as I've come to structure. <g>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/wishlists
> That might be helpful for structured types too.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/wishlist-=-
EEEEK!
VERY, very very sorry.
Thanks for giving good ones.
Interestingly...
I knew they were wrong and meant to change them, and also had
intended to put up pages on those easily-misguessed addresses (and
I'm going to, so those will work for some who don't read mail until
tomorrow or Monday)... and I got distracted by relatives, phone
calls, SCA stuff, my hot tub, Kirby waking up and talking to me...
Many activatious happenings seemed exciting at the time. <g>
I apologize to any and all who clicked bad links. My whole entire
fault.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sandra, to me, your site and Joyce's combined are a most powerful
source of information. I love Joyce's lists on each side and yours
on the left because I can so easily see the topics that interest me
the most. I do have to remember to keep going back, but the
discussion lists are taking all my time! -=-
I'm totally jealous of Joyce's.
If you ever tire of clicking the lists that are on mine, go to the
site news link and click some newer ones there. Some are too minor
to go on the main list, but ideally something on the main list leads
directly to everything else, not counting the lizard page which can
now be reached by going to
http://sandradodd.com/game/nintendogold
following the cat photo to the parody on Crystal's page, and clicking
the lizard link in her intro.
Now THAT is one obscure link!!!!
Double checking...
http://sandradodd.com/game/nintendogold
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
source of information. I love Joyce's lists on each side and yours
on the left because I can so easily see the topics that interest me
the most. I do have to remember to keep going back, but the
discussion lists are taking all my time! -=-
I'm totally jealous of Joyce's.
If you ever tire of clicking the lists that are on mine, go to the
site news link and click some newer ones there. Some are too minor
to go on the main list, but ideally something on the main list leads
directly to everything else, not counting the lizard page which can
now be reached by going to
http://sandradodd.com/game/nintendogold
following the cat photo to the parody on Crystal's page, and clicking
the lizard link in her intro.
Now THAT is one obscure link!!!!
Double checking...
http://sandradodd.com/game/nintendogold
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I see more similariy between RU and NVC
than I do between unschooling and any other homeschooling
philosophy.-=-
Still, why does it have be be compared?
It's unique. It's special.
If it's like anything, I think it's like attachment parenting and the
open classroom, the gradual rollover from one to the other, only the
classroom in question is the whole universe, real and imagined, past,
present and future.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
than I do between unschooling and any other homeschooling
philosophy.-=-
Still, why does it have be be compared?
It's unique. It's special.
If it's like anything, I think it's like attachment parenting and the
open classroom, the gradual rollover from one to the other, only the
classroom in question is the whole universe, real and imagined, past,
present and future.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cindy Fox
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> rote:
works for me and it helps me to just do three steps in the way that
I perceive NVC:
1. Identify my feelings. (this is tough for me)
2. Identify and verbalize my specific request from someone else.
3. Accept their response and self-soothe if necessary. (like if I
don't get what I want).
I REALLY didn't like one NVC faciliator's answer when I asked what
if you can't get your needs met.
She said, 'then you mourn the death of that need'
That stinks! But the reality is that you can't make other people do
what you want without compromising the relationship and that where I
see the similarity of NVC to Unschooling.
To 'mourn the death of that need' is to accept that the need IS
important to ME, but perhaps NOT important to others and that
doesn't make me or them bad or good, just different. To 'mourn the
death of that need' is to acknowledge that the need is important to
me, but that I just can't get it met and rather than to get angry,
revengeful or other things I don't want to be, I can accept and
grieve, then let go and move on.
NVC's purpose is to build connections between people, NOT to get
what you want at any costs. It's not always an appropriate tool to
use in every situation, but it is working well for me in our family
situation.
messages and thought I remembered correctly.
to continually choose in a different direction is to change your
mind and your attitude. It takes time, but it does work.
continuum, but I also have gotten stuck in the idea that there may
be only one path to something, but that is just something I have to
keep reminding myself is not true.
Even if we are all going to the top of the same mountain, we may be
all taking different routes!
Scary that your thoughts of should I do this or that are remarkably
like mine. :) My husband said he would get tired if he thought that
much all the time!
flexible in a situation if you don't even know what accepted
behavior is. :)
We went to the Estrella War last year. It was interesting to see
the different activities, like the blacksmithing and bread making
and so on, but I would never put on an outfit there without feeling
WAY comfortable that I knew the unspoken rules.
Thinking about that, that is a lot of how I feel in unschooling.
There are unspoken rules and even many people may disagree on a
certain decision or path.
I'm not looking for a checklist per se, just more of a philosophical
approach to the ideal unschooling life. :)
unschooling or RU in our house is happy children, happy family.
I can't see 'unschooling' itself as a goal. I can only see it as a
process to getting to a different goal, such as producing happy,
confident, comfortable people. :)
That's where I think I was having my problem.
When you say 'unschooling is the goal' then it seems you are
treating it as a product and not a process. I think we agree that
it's a process and so maybe it's just the terminology or use of the
word that is confusing to me.
I already bought a copy of your Peaceful Parenting tape. :) I'm
going to use Richie's Kareoke machine to listen to it. :)
I did listen to Big Noisy Peace and it was interesting, but I'm
thinking I will get more out of the Peaceful Parenting tape,
although for me, I prefer to read, so edited transcripts, websites
and books are my favorite. :) I did already buy Moving a Puddle
before you ask! :)
computer training, I often have to explain something two or three
ways until I see that click of comprehension in someone's eyes.
It's too bad there's no faster, better way to get it, but there we
go. All being human, I suppose.
your website? It would be interesting to me to hear your shifting
movties and underpinnings throughout the years...
I am very happy with my purpose of growing happy, confident kids,
but I'm always interested to hear what other purposes and goals may
be out there on the unschooling road. :)
c.
> Ah. NVC gags me. I've tried a few times to read some moreI can see that. :) My husband feels the same way. It's a tool that
> because people I like and respect can really get into that, but
> every time I try it gags me again.
works for me and it helps me to just do three steps in the way that
I perceive NVC:
1. Identify my feelings. (this is tough for me)
2. Identify and verbalize my specific request from someone else.
3. Accept their response and self-soothe if necessary. (like if I
don't get what I want).
I REALLY didn't like one NVC faciliator's answer when I asked what
if you can't get your needs met.
She said, 'then you mourn the death of that need'
That stinks! But the reality is that you can't make other people do
what you want without compromising the relationship and that where I
see the similarity of NVC to Unschooling.
To 'mourn the death of that need' is to accept that the need IS
important to ME, but perhaps NOT important to others and that
doesn't make me or them bad or good, just different. To 'mourn the
death of that need' is to acknowledge that the need is important to
me, but that I just can't get it met and rather than to get angry,
revengeful or other things I don't want to be, I can accept and
grieve, then let go and move on.
NVC's purpose is to build connections between people, NOT to get
what you want at any costs. It's not always an appropriate tool to
use in every situation, but it is working well for me in our family
situation.
> That was someone else's quote, referring to "What the bleep do weSorry, I almost wrote 'someone' but I had been reading too many
> know," a source that also gags me.
messages and thought I remembered correctly.
> but they need to consciously andYES! But this is what I took out of the conversation and also that
> mindfully and logically CHOOSE what to do in the second.
to continually choose in a different direction is to change your
mind and your attitude. It takes time, but it does work.
> Some people see choice as some kind of "what do you want to beYes, luckily I've been lots of things and I do see even that as a
> when you grown up" one single big choice.
continuum, but I also have gotten stuck in the idea that there may
be only one path to something, but that is just something I have to
keep reminding myself is not true.
Even if we are all going to the top of the same mountain, we may be
all taking different routes!
Scary that your thoughts of should I do this or that are remarkably
like mine. :) My husband said he would get tired if he thought that
much all the time!
> Flexibility and awareness are valuable to me.Yah, I agree, but as in your example of the squire, you can't be
flexible in a situation if you don't even know what accepted
behavior is. :)
We went to the Estrella War last year. It was interesting to see
the different activities, like the blacksmithing and bread making
and so on, but I would never put on an outfit there without feeling
WAY comfortable that I knew the unspoken rules.
Thinking about that, that is a lot of how I feel in unschooling.
There are unspoken rules and even many people may disagree on a
certain decision or path.
I'm not looking for a checklist per se, just more of a philosophical
approach to the ideal unschooling life. :)
> If unschooling is the goal...Right, but then how would 'unschooling' be defined. :)
> Flexibility. Broadness of base. Expansion of scope, not narrow-Not where I am coming from. For instance, for me, the 'goal' of
> beam vision.
unschooling or RU in our house is happy children, happy family.
I can't see 'unschooling' itself as a goal. I can only see it as a
process to getting to a different goal, such as producing happy,
confident, comfortable people. :)
That's where I think I was having my problem.
When you say 'unschooling is the goal' then it seems you are
treating it as a product and not a process. I think we agree that
it's a process and so maybe it's just the terminology or use of the
word that is confusing to me.
I already bought a copy of your Peaceful Parenting tape. :) I'm
going to use Richie's Kareoke machine to listen to it. :)
I did listen to Big Noisy Peace and it was interesting, but I'm
thinking I will get more out of the Peaceful Parenting tape,
although for me, I prefer to read, so edited transcripts, websites
and books are my favorite. :) I did already buy Moving a Puddle
before you ask! :)
> people go through levels ofYes, we all have ways that things make sense to us. :) When I do
> understanding and receptiveness, and some things that are there
> won't make sense to some people.
computer training, I often have to explain something two or three
ways until I see that click of comprehension in someone's eyes.
It's too bad there's no faster, better way to get it, but there we
go. All being human, I suppose.
> The process of knowing WHY one is unschooling is part ofAh, interesting thoughts. Have you expounded on this somewhere on
> unschooling. The first simple "She hates school" won't serve to
> support and maintain ten years of parental involvement. New
> motives and underpinnings need to be seen and embraced all along
> the way.
your website? It would be interesting to me to hear your shifting
movties and underpinnings throughout the years...
I am very happy with my purpose of growing happy, confident kids,
but I'm always interested to hear what other purposes and goals may
be out there on the unschooling road. :)
c.
queenjane555
> The process of knowing WHY one is unschooling is part ofthe >way.
> unschooling. The first simple "She hates school" won't serve to
> support and maintain ten years of parental involvement. New
>motives and underpinnings need to be seen and embraced all along
Its funny how one can read something on this list (or another one),
and it not sink in at the time, and then a year or two or more
later, one can "get it." Awhile back, it was noted somewhere
(mightve been UD, or unschooling.com or here)that its not a great
idea to re-hash school wounds, to talk and talk about how hard and
horrible school was for either us as parents or our children. That
while it can be cathartic in the beginning, it doesnt really move
someone closer to the peace of unschooling. At the time, i think i
felt a little defensive about it. I felt that one shouldnt
be "hushed" about their real experiences with school.
But lately, talking about my son's negative school experiences
doesnt feel right to me. I posted on another list about meeting
another HSing family on the train back from Albuquerque. I had lunch
with the mom during our layover in Chicago. Practically the first
thing out of her mouth was her son's entire negative elementary
school experience (including being put in special ed)...The son
(almost 16 yrs)looked pretty mortified about it. I also had talked
during the conference, and on the train to another unschooler, about
some things that had happened to my son during kindergarten. But
i've found that lately, i want to focus on what's good about our
lives, what brings us happiness, our passions, and not on the
behavior of some crappy school teacher three years ago. I'm hoping
that by the time *my* son is 16, i won't even remember his bad K
experiences.
Unschooling, for us, has become more a positive way of being in the
present and not a reaction to the negative experiences in the past.
Katherine
Cindy Fox
You ask why I compare and then you compare. :) I do it for the same
reason you do - for understanding, for a path that works for me.
I never learned about Attachment Parenting nor Open Classroom until
AFTER I learned about unschooling. I didn't travel those paths so
they don't mean much to me.
My intent was to observe that NVC and RU generally have similar
goals as I see it. Which is what I hear you saying about AP and OC
if I understand correctly. Same mountain, different trail to
understanding!
NVC helps me on my path by giving me tools that help me to be the
best for my kids. I hope it will help someone else, but surely I
don't expect everyone (or even anyone) to follow my path. It is
just out there to be taken if useful or ignored if not. :)
c.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
reason you do - for understanding, for a path that works for me.
I never learned about Attachment Parenting nor Open Classroom until
AFTER I learned about unschooling. I didn't travel those paths so
they don't mean much to me.
My intent was to observe that NVC and RU generally have similar
goals as I see it. Which is what I hear you saying about AP and OC
if I understand correctly. Same mountain, different trail to
understanding!
NVC helps me on my path by giving me tools that help me to be the
best for my kids. I hope it will help someone else, but surely I
don't expect everyone (or even anyone) to follow my path. It is
just out there to be taken if useful or ignored if not. :)
c.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
>the
> -=-I see more similariy between RU and NVC
> than I do between unschooling and any other homeschooling
> philosophy.-=-
>
> Still, why does it have be be compared?
>
> It's unique. It's special.
>
> If it's like anything, I think it's like attachment parenting and
> open classroom, the gradual rollover from one to the other, onlythe
> classroom in question is the whole universe, real and imagined,past,
> present and future.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-You ask why I compare and then you compare. :) I do it for the same
reason you do - for understanding, for a path that works for me.
-=-I never learned about Attachment Parenting nor Open Classroom until
AFTER I learned about unschooling. I didn't travel those paths so
they don't mean much to me.-=-
It seemed your comparison was a stretch, and mine were related,
that's why.
-=-My intent was to observe that NVC and RU generally have similar
goals as I see it. Which is what I hear you saying about AP and OC
if I understand correctly. Same mountain, different trail to
understanding!-=-
What mountain?
NVC is about personal relations, isn't it? It's like a way for
people who aren't naturally aware ("intrapersonal intelligence"?) to
find a way to communicate?
I've seen NVC used as a club, personally. I've seen it used to tell
others that they're using jackal language (or whatever), to criticize
them for not having GUESSED how the NVC people think others should
communicate. It seems to me to be making up rules to use in an
environment in which there are already traditions and courtesies in
place. Unless everyone in a family, or a club, or a church, or a
neighborhood, agrees that they will ALL "be NVC" then those who don't
learn those dialogs are considered to be rude, it seems.
-=-I don't expect everyone (or even anyone) to follow my path.-=-
Does it work if only one person is doing it? Can it be a solo pursuit?
All in all, it's only communication.
Unschooling involves all aspects of life, not just communication.
Attachment parenting involves touch, sleep, eating, being.
Open classroom involves every method of gathering information and
touching and understanding and discussion.
I don't see unschooling as a way to communicate.
Probably I'm misunderstanding NVC, but it seems to be a narrow-focus
tool, and more a set of rules than a process.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reason you do - for understanding, for a path that works for me.
-=-I never learned about Attachment Parenting nor Open Classroom until
AFTER I learned about unschooling. I didn't travel those paths so
they don't mean much to me.-=-
It seemed your comparison was a stretch, and mine were related,
that's why.
-=-My intent was to observe that NVC and RU generally have similar
goals as I see it. Which is what I hear you saying about AP and OC
if I understand correctly. Same mountain, different trail to
understanding!-=-
What mountain?
NVC is about personal relations, isn't it? It's like a way for
people who aren't naturally aware ("intrapersonal intelligence"?) to
find a way to communicate?
I've seen NVC used as a club, personally. I've seen it used to tell
others that they're using jackal language (or whatever), to criticize
them for not having GUESSED how the NVC people think others should
communicate. It seems to me to be making up rules to use in an
environment in which there are already traditions and courtesies in
place. Unless everyone in a family, or a club, or a church, or a
neighborhood, agrees that they will ALL "be NVC" then those who don't
learn those dialogs are considered to be rude, it seems.
-=-I don't expect everyone (or even anyone) to follow my path.-=-
Does it work if only one person is doing it? Can it be a solo pursuit?
All in all, it's only communication.
Unschooling involves all aspects of life, not just communication.
Attachment parenting involves touch, sleep, eating, being.
Open classroom involves every method of gathering information and
touching and understanding and discussion.
I don't see unschooling as a way to communicate.
Probably I'm misunderstanding NVC, but it seems to be a narrow-focus
tool, and more a set of rules than a process.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Ooops. Thought I had sent this before the long leisurely trip to the
mall...
-=-I REALLY didn't like one NVC faciliator's answer when I asked what
if you can't get your needs met.
She said, 'then you mourn the death of that need'
-=-
Too dramatic for me.
Recommending mourning sounds awful.
Seems healthier to say "some 'needs' were fleeting ideas and can't
or shouldn't be met."
Going around telling people what one needs seems extremely... NEEDY.
The other day one of the teens at the conference came up and said
"You need to sign my shirt." I said "I have no such need. Do you
mean that you want me to sign your shirt?"
She didn't get it, but I came back at her later for saying something
thoughtless/doofy and she thought a few seconds and smiled and said
"I like that!"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mall...
-=-I REALLY didn't like one NVC faciliator's answer when I asked what
if you can't get your needs met.
She said, 'then you mourn the death of that need'
-=-
Too dramatic for me.
Recommending mourning sounds awful.
Seems healthier to say "some 'needs' were fleeting ideas and can't
or shouldn't be met."
Going around telling people what one needs seems extremely... NEEDY.
The other day one of the teens at the conference came up and said
"You need to sign my shirt." I said "I have no such need. Do you
mean that you want me to sign your shirt?"
She didn't get it, but I came back at her later for saying something
thoughtless/doofy and she thought a few seconds and smiled and said
"I like that!"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Awhile back, it was noted somewhere
(mightve been UD, or unschooling.com or here)that its not a great
idea to re-hash school wounds, to talk and talk about how hard and
horrible school was for either us as parents or our children. That
while it can be cathartic in the beginning, it doesnt really move
someone closer to the peace of unschooling.-=-
Pam Sorooshian is willing to hear people out, when they call her for
local information. She knows it's therapeutic for them.
I cut people off, when they call me and start telling me a school
story. I say "WAIT, wait, wait." Loudly if they're trying to plow
through and tell me the whole story against my will." I will say
"STOP. It doesn't matter." I tell them what to do that day, and the
next, and to step away from the school, to turn their backs on the
school, that they do NOT need school's permission or approval to
unschool.
I go with the "It can't hurt you anymore now" angle.
But if someone recites it regularly, a five minute incident can last
a month, a year!
-=-i've found that lately, i want to focus on what's good about our
lives, what brings us happiness, our passions, and not on the
behavior of some crappy school teacher three years ago.-=-
Or three years. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
(mightve been UD, or unschooling.com or here)that its not a great
idea to re-hash school wounds, to talk and talk about how hard and
horrible school was for either us as parents or our children. That
while it can be cathartic in the beginning, it doesnt really move
someone closer to the peace of unschooling.-=-
Pam Sorooshian is willing to hear people out, when they call her for
local information. She knows it's therapeutic for them.
I cut people off, when they call me and start telling me a school
story. I say "WAIT, wait, wait." Loudly if they're trying to plow
through and tell me the whole story against my will." I will say
"STOP. It doesn't matter." I tell them what to do that day, and the
next, and to step away from the school, to turn their backs on the
school, that they do NOT need school's permission or approval to
unschool.
I go with the "It can't hurt you anymore now" angle.
But if someone recites it regularly, a five minute incident can last
a month, a year!
-=-i've found that lately, i want to focus on what's good about our
lives, what brings us happiness, our passions, and not on the
behavior of some crappy school teacher three years ago.-=-
Or three years. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cindy Fox
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
two until I finally saw it from a different perspective.
needs ARE fleeting, but others are not, so the difference between
the two responses would be that the first acknowledges that your
need is important where as your and my initial response is one of
dismissiveness. If that works for you, okay, but for me, that would
make me angry and I can't just 'let go' of things that are important
to me, so to let something go by acknowleging that it IS important,
lets me self-parent and self-soothe even if no one else can do that
for me.
of your needs.
For me, the important part is when something IS a need, that you
should recognize it internally and clearly articulate your request
rather than assume others will understand.
As I said, I use my modified three steps. I don't need to rehash.
Do you have this need? :)
Other important points for me are to avoid anger, blame, shame, etc.
and taking responsibility internally for things that are my needs.
her request. It would have been easy for you to decide to help her
meet her need or not.
c.
wrote:
> Too dramatic for me.That was my initial reaction. I had to sit with it for a week or
> Recommending mourning sounds awful.
two until I finally saw it from a different perspective.
> Seems healthier to say "some 'needs' were fleeting ideas andAgain, sounds like my initial thoughts, and I do agree that 'some'
> can't or shouldn't be met."
needs ARE fleeting, but others are not, so the difference between
the two responses would be that the first acknowledges that your
need is important where as your and my initial response is one of
dismissiveness. If that works for you, okay, but for me, that would
make me angry and I can't just 'let go' of things that are important
to me, so to let something go by acknowleging that it IS important,
lets me self-parent and self-soothe even if no one else can do that
for me.
> Going around telling people what one needs seems extremely...Certainly, nothing about NVC suggests you should tell everyone ALL
> NEEDY.
of your needs.
For me, the important part is when something IS a need, that you
should recognize it internally and clearly articulate your request
rather than assume others will understand.
As I said, I use my modified three steps. I don't need to rehash.
Do you have this need? :)
Other important points for me are to avoid anger, blame, shame, etc.
and taking responsibility internally for things that are my needs.
> The other day one of the teens at the conference came up and saidYes, you would have preferred she used NVC and stated HER need and
> "You need to sign my shirt." I said "I have no such need. Do
> you mean that you want me to sign your shirt?"
her request. It would have been easy for you to decide to help her
meet her need or not.
c.
Cindy Fox
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
should have used the word tool. I would say that NVC is more in the
line of ACOA. Would that make sense to you?
is 'learned' as you seemed to refer to below when you said:
"It seems to me to be making up rules to use in an environment in
which there are already traditions and courtesies in place."
Maybe the traditions and courtesies (sets of rules) don't always
work the same everywhere. I was trained not to trust myself. I've
had to relearn that. When I said I wanted x or y, I was told I
didn't want that, I wanted z. So for me, just to identify what
exactly I DO want is work and then to communicate it directly (as
you westerners do) instead of the eastern passive-agressive mode
(southerns are more direct than mid-atlantic and north!) was a great
stretch for me.
NVC helps me be clear, direct and not attacking, belittling or
underhanded, all communication techniques designed to get someone
what they want, not designed to build relationships.
people will. People can use anything as a weapon, even NVC.
Religion has certainly made an excellent weapon over the years.
Preaching tolerance and being intolerant. Preaching acceptance and
not accepting. That doesn't mean the concepts are wrong, just that
the people applying them have cruel or mean motives.
Viewing the world through a lens that sees every person's actions as
a reflection of their own needs can let one be more sensitive and
tolerant of others.
NVC can be practiced alone in helping one determine how 'best' to
communicate with others. NVC is simply another tool in the box.
but a tool to help one achieve unschooling.
assimilating) is that how you communicate is very important in being
successful at unschooling.
Communication comes up quite often in all the unschooling convos I
see.
literal, so it might take me a bit to get anything that is
assumed. :)
I didn't see the AP and OC as being a process since I am not very
familiar with them, but now I see what you were getting at before.
Thanks for the dialog. It helps me suss out even more nuances. :)
c.
wrote:
> It seemed your comparison was a stretch, and mine were related,I guess I mis-spoke when I used the word 'comparison' as really, I
> that's why.
should have used the word tool. I would say that NVC is more in the
line of ACOA. Would that make sense to you?
> What mountain?Metaphor for a journey to understanding (at the top).
> NVC is about personal relations, isn't it? It's like a way forI would have to say that communication isn't 'natural' but instead
> people who aren't naturally aware ("intrapersonal intelligence"?)
> to find a way to communicate?
is 'learned' as you seemed to refer to below when you said:
"It seems to me to be making up rules to use in an environment in
which there are already traditions and courtesies in place."
Maybe the traditions and courtesies (sets of rules) don't always
work the same everywhere. I was trained not to trust myself. I've
had to relearn that. When I said I wanted x or y, I was told I
didn't want that, I wanted z. So for me, just to identify what
exactly I DO want is work and then to communicate it directly (as
you westerners do) instead of the eastern passive-agressive mode
(southerns are more direct than mid-atlantic and north!) was a great
stretch for me.
NVC helps me be clear, direct and not attacking, belittling or
underhanded, all communication techniques designed to get someone
what they want, not designed to build relationships.
> I've seen NVC used as a club, personally. I've seen it used toI certainly wouldn't apply it that way, but I could see that other
> tell others that they're using jackal language (or whatever), to
> criticize them for not having GUESSED how the NVC people think
> others should communicate. It seems to me to be making up rules
> to use in an environment in which there are already traditions and
> courtesies in place. Unless everyone in a family, or a club, or
> a church, or a neighborhood, agrees that they will ALL "be NVC"
> then those who don't learn those dialogs are considered to be
> rude, it seems.
people will. People can use anything as a weapon, even NVC.
Religion has certainly made an excellent weapon over the years.
Preaching tolerance and being intolerant. Preaching acceptance and
not accepting. That doesn't mean the concepts are wrong, just that
the people applying them have cruel or mean motives.
> Does it work if only one person is doing it? Can it be a soloYes. I thought I had explained that, but perhaps not clearly.
> pursuit?
Viewing the world through a lens that sees every person's actions as
a reflection of their own needs can let one be more sensitive and
tolerant of others.
NVC can be practiced alone in helping one determine how 'best' to
communicate with others. NVC is simply another tool in the box.
> All in all, it's only communication.Which is pretty important.
> Unschooling involves all aspects of life, not just communication.Again, just a tool on the path. Of course it's not the same thing,
but a tool to help one achieve unschooling.
> I don't see unschooling as a way to communicate.But what I was saying (and of course I am still learning and
assimilating) is that how you communicate is very important in being
successful at unschooling.
Communication comes up quite often in all the unschooling convos I
see.
> Probably I'm misunderstanding NVC, but it seems to be a narrow-No, you're right. I see what you're saying here. Remember, I'm
> focus tool, and more a set of rules than a process.
literal, so it might take me a bit to get anything that is
assumed. :)
I didn't see the AP and OC as being a process since I am not very
familiar with them, but now I see what you were getting at before.
Thanks for the dialog. It helps me suss out even more nuances. :)
c.
Nancy Wooton
On Sep 16, 2006, at 8:00 PM, Cindy Fox wrote:
at least the first time you use the term, the way a newspaper does.
You'd be amazed how many things Google finds called "NVC," for example
<g>
" I didn't see the AP and OC as being a process "
Hmm, AP must be Attachment Parenting, and Orange County... no, that
can't be right...
TIA <g>
Nancy (guessing ACOA is the same as ACA :-) (And for those still
scratching their heads -- Adult Children of Alcoholics, a 12-step group
spun off of Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon.)
> I guess I mis-spoke when I used the word 'comparison' as really, IIt would make more sense to *me* if you spelled out your abbreviations,
> should have used the word tool. I would say that NVC is more in the
> line of ACOA. Would that make sense to you?
at least the first time you use the term, the way a newspaper does.
You'd be amazed how many things Google finds called "NVC," for example
<g>
" I didn't see the AP and OC as being a process "
Hmm, AP must be Attachment Parenting, and Orange County... no, that
can't be right...
TIA <g>
Nancy (guessing ACOA is the same as ACA :-) (And for those still
scratching their heads -- Adult Children of Alcoholics, a 12-step group
spun off of Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon.)
Diane Bentzen
I like plans and to know what we're doing. My latest
attempt to control the chaos is to write down ideas in
my planner of things we want to do together. Then when
we have a half day free, we can look and see what to
do.
So far, we've gone to It'z (pizza buffet with games
and rides) and ridden RailRunner and the bus. Still
waiting on the list are playing Putt-Putt and going to
an RV store to look at all the RVs.
For me, having the written list has helped a lot,
because before we'd have things we wanted to do, but
couldn't remember what they were when we had time to
do them.
Not an article or link, but it might help someone.
:-) Diane
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
attempt to control the chaos is to write down ideas in
my planner of things we want to do together. Then when
we have a half day free, we can look and see what to
do.
So far, we've gone to It'z (pizza buffet with games
and rides) and ridden RailRunner and the bus. Still
waiting on the list are playing Putt-Putt and going to
an RV store to look at all the RVs.
For me, having the written list has helped a lot,
because before we'd have things we wanted to do, but
couldn't remember what they were when we had time to
do them.
Not an article or link, but it might help someone.
:-) Diane
> How about this: Those who do like outlines and__________________________________________________
> structures (I have
> some in-person friends who twitch mightily at the
> way I do and
> explain and discuss things in areas other than
> unschooling, so I know
> intellectually if not emotionally of the need), what
> are some
> unschooling things that ARE good for people who like
> schedules and
> structure? Are there articles on my site or Joyce's
> or elsewhere
> that would be good? I could link them in one place
> and when people
> come by who say "What is all this insubstantial
> murk!?" we can send them to the list.
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-" I didn't see the AP and OC as being a process "
Hmm, AP must be Attachment Parenting, and Orange County... no, that
can't be right...-=-
As I had mentioned attachment parenting and open classroom, I figured
it was for "open classroom," but it's better to spell out terms than
create new (and more) codes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hmm, AP must be Attachment Parenting, and Orange County... no, that
can't be right...-=-
As I had mentioned attachment parenting and open classroom, I figured
it was for "open classroom," but it's better to spell out terms than
create new (and more) codes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
I joke sometimes about creating an "unschooling workbook," (for
parents who are wanting to begin unschooling), but I really do
understand and identify with Cindy's urge for concrete steps, etc.
and it isn't entirely a joke. I see how there are steps that people
could go through and that there are people who would get a better
understanding of unschooling, more quickly, if they were walked
through some of those early steps in a more linear manner. I'm
considering really creating a workbook-style "How to Unschool" book.
Joining the unschooling lists is like jumping into a flowing stream -
sometimes the flow is gentle and people might float along for a while
and pretty soon they start swimming along; others start swimming
along right away. But sometimes joining the lists feels like diving
into a river with lots of white-water rapids - people feel like
they're bashing into rocks and it all sounds out of control and wild
and very scary. Some of this is a function of what happens to be
happening on the lists at the time the person joins, and some of it
is the nature of the person, not the lists. There are also people who
jump in and struggle against the flow and thrash around and make
things harder for people to swim, and there are a very few people who
actually join in order throw rocks at us while we're swimming.
-pam
parents who are wanting to begin unschooling), but I really do
understand and identify with Cindy's urge for concrete steps, etc.
and it isn't entirely a joke. I see how there are steps that people
could go through and that there are people who would get a better
understanding of unschooling, more quickly, if they were walked
through some of those early steps in a more linear manner. I'm
considering really creating a workbook-style "How to Unschool" book.
Joining the unschooling lists is like jumping into a flowing stream -
sometimes the flow is gentle and people might float along for a while
and pretty soon they start swimming along; others start swimming
along right away. But sometimes joining the lists feels like diving
into a river with lots of white-water rapids - people feel like
they're bashing into rocks and it all sounds out of control and wild
and very scary. Some of this is a function of what happens to be
happening on the lists at the time the person joins, and some of it
is the nature of the person, not the lists. There are also people who
jump in and struggle against the flow and thrash around and make
things harder for people to swim, and there are a very few people who
actually join in order throw rocks at us while we're swimming.
-pam
On Sep 16, 2006, at 8:34 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-No literalness as in 'do this and that will happen'. In general, I
> like specifics and exactness. This may be what you don't like about
> product vs. process, but I think a structure could be applied to
> either.
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-I joke sometimes about creating an "unschooling workbook," (for
parents who are wanting to begin unschooling), but I really do
understand and identify with Cindy's urge for concrete steps, etc.
and it isn't entirely a joke.-=-
I've had a joke for years about a deck of cards that are 365 days of
unschooling, with a thing to do each day, and after a year (or 365
cards) of that, people would just get it.
But most of those ideas are here
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/stages
http://sandradodd.com/typical
http://sandradodd.com/math
http://sandradodd.com/music
http://sandradodd.com/arts
http://sandradodd.com/connections
http://sandradodd.com/history
http://sandradodd.com/movies
http://sandradodd.com/mirrors
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
If people can't figure out how to do it themselves with THIS MUCH
help AND a flowing stream, then they can use a school or a
curriculum. Through their frustrations with that, they might at
least figure out what NOT to do if they still want to figure out
unschooling.
There are intro to unschooling talks, and tapes of those. I'll sell
one to anyone here for $7.50 right now today, and I need the money, too.
http://sandradodd.com/tapes
I don't think anyone comes to any of these lists without being given
links to my pages or Joyce's, and I KNOW that there is enough
information on those two sites to let people get it.
It IS a process. Learning it is a process, and it's a process that
one's learning. For people who only like product, unschooling isn't
going to become "product."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
parents who are wanting to begin unschooling), but I really do
understand and identify with Cindy's urge for concrete steps, etc.
and it isn't entirely a joke.-=-
I've had a joke for years about a deck of cards that are 365 days of
unschooling, with a thing to do each day, and after a year (or 365
cards) of that, people would just get it.
But most of those ideas are here
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/stages
http://sandradodd.com/typical
http://sandradodd.com/math
http://sandradodd.com/music
http://sandradodd.com/arts
http://sandradodd.com/connections
http://sandradodd.com/history
http://sandradodd.com/movies
http://sandradodd.com/mirrors
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
If people can't figure out how to do it themselves with THIS MUCH
help AND a flowing stream, then they can use a school or a
curriculum. Through their frustrations with that, they might at
least figure out what NOT to do if they still want to figure out
unschooling.
There are intro to unschooling talks, and tapes of those. I'll sell
one to anyone here for $7.50 right now today, and I need the money, too.
http://sandradodd.com/tapes
I don't think anyone comes to any of these lists without being given
links to my pages or Joyce's, and I KNOW that there is enough
information on those two sites to let people get it.
It IS a process. Learning it is a process, and it's a process that
one's learning. For people who only like product, unschooling isn't
going to become "product."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Sep 16, 2006, at 3:58 PM, Cindy Fox wrote:
principles and appreciating and learning from the more general
discussions about it) is the scripted sound of the communications
between people who embrace it. I end up feeling that I'm having
something "done to me." That isn't a pleasant feeling and feels, to
me, like it would come between a parent and child, rather than
enhance a deep and authentic relationship between them.
I do understand that it is not the goal of NVC for people to do this
- that the idea is to take the principles and make them your own, to
be able to express yourself in your own unique way. But that doesn't
seem to pan out - even the emails I get, occasionally, from long-time
NVCers, all follow such a predictable script-like pattern, that I
tend to disregard all the "observations, feelings, needs, and
requests" because they don't seem, somehow, "real."
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> NVC helps me on my path by giving me tools that help me to be theWhat turns me off about it (in spite of agreeing with all the
> best for my kids. I hope it will help someone else, but surely I
> don't expect everyone (or even anyone) to follow my path. It is
> just out there to be taken if useful or ignored if not. :)
principles and appreciating and learning from the more general
discussions about it) is the scripted sound of the communications
between people who embrace it. I end up feeling that I'm having
something "done to me." That isn't a pleasant feeling and feels, to
me, like it would come between a parent and child, rather than
enhance a deep and authentic relationship between them.
I do understand that it is not the goal of NVC for people to do this
- that the idea is to take the principles and make them your own, to
be able to express yourself in your own unique way. But that doesn't
seem to pan out - even the emails I get, occasionally, from long-time
NVCers, all follow such a predictable script-like pattern, that I
tend to disregard all the "observations, feelings, needs, and
requests" because they don't seem, somehow, "real."
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]