I put this post up on Radical Unschooling Info on facebook, September 12, 2019. It got some interesting, fine responses, but when I commented on one, it turned argumentative. There's no evidence that anyone read the comments other than group moderators, which is fine. I brought it here so it's not "just deleted." I think these kinds of arguments are interesting.
If you want to go to the page where other comments are, click the photo.
I have a few questions, and anyone can answer.
Do they sell these fold-out display boards outside of the U.S.? When I was a kid we built our own science fair displays, but these are for sale now, and seem to be required. Are there science fairs, in schools, in Portugal? The U.K.? Australia? India? Does the grocery store carry "project boards"?
Those who have participated and visited science fairs in schools, what are the best projects you can remember?
And the important question: Without bringing us anything from wikipedia or a dictionary, do you have (already in you) a good definition of "science"? Does it help you with unschooling, that knowledge? Did it come from school?
Briefly, if possible (or super-interestingly, if it's long) write something about science that clarifies your thinking and might help with someone else's.
After you write, you can look it up and come back and comment on your own response if you want. 🙂 But don't write us a report about science. I'm wondering what is internalized, in some people who are unschooling.
I did one in 7th grade about what coca-cola does to teeth. I got spare teeth from a dentist and put them in coke and recorded the data over like 2 weeks. They literally turn to sponges! I learned people should stop drinking sodas from that project even though I bombed the oral report because I'm shy.Sandra Dodd:
"Literally"? To sponges?AmyAnne:
The animals-in-the-ocean sponges, or the cellulose-kitchen-scrubber sponges?Now that there are time-lapse cameras on every phone, there should be videos on youtube.
Coke is strong and fizzy for the first little while, but not for hours. Not for two weeks.
What is it in a coke, that will turn a tooth to a sponge?
Do dentists really give people "spare teeth"?
If a coke does that, what else will do that?
Without testing more than one liquid, there was no test group and control group. It seems that for a science fair project, with spare teeth, some teeth should have been in coke, but some in other liquids. So it wasn't a scientific experiment.
People used to say it would dissolve baby teeth.
Now you're asserting "spare teeth from dentists."
To be scientific, other liquids would be needed, and various kinds of teeth. Maybe human (different ages; baby teeth are temporary from the get-go, and are not always in strong shape when they fall out), and also dog teeth, and cows, and hippopotamus teeth.If Coke is the culprit, then different types of coke products could be tested to see what is really turning a tooth to sponge. The recipe is ultimately a big secret, but that's the flavors. Most elements are known. Will American Coke be worse than Mexican or European coke (I don't know what Canadian Cokes are sweetened with—not to leave Canadians out, one should find out).
But even if dentists give spare teeth (?) to kids, and if coke can destroy enamel, maybe another test would be to see if it could dissolve wood (like a popsicle stick, or a twig), or cloth. A plastic coffee-cup stirrer.
But if it would dissolve that, how can it stay in a plastic bottle? I don't think coke has ever dissolved steel (back in the day) or aluminum, or glass or the metal lids of bottled coke. It might not do well in a paper cup for two weeks, but that depends on the materials and construction of the cup. I have had both water and Dr. Pepper stay in a covered paper cup in my van for weeks, and not leak out. I'm willing to try the butt end of a drive-through coke in the same way, if I can get a passenger to drink most of it. I don't like coke.
I'm not trying to pick on one science fair project, though if this story was told in response to my "what are the best projects you can remember?" it's not a very good example, for not having used the scientific method.
Sandra Dodd just because you don't see something as a good example "to you", does not mean it wasn't eye opening for me or someone else who has done this project. When I did the experiment I had clear cups with the teeth inside, each cup had a different soda in it to compare etc. It's the acids in the soda that deteriorates the enamel of the teeth. It's a common project, I will link a similar one below :Sandra Dodd:"Soft drinks normally contain acids that can dissolve the enamel of teeth. The pH levels of the soft drinks that we consume are between 2.5 to 4.0. Any solution with a pH level below 5.0 is strong enough to cause erosion in our teeth. Even the natural juices found in fruits like lemons and oranges contain citric acid and ascorbic acid, which can eat away at our tooth enamel.'The most common offenders in soft drinks are phosphoric acid and citric acid. Although occasional drinking of soft drinks will not do much harm to our teeth and health, it is the habitual drinkers that have much to worry about. Sipping the drinks slowly will only prolong the exposure of the teeth to acid and will only cause more damage to one’s tooth enamel."
But the topic here is SCIENCE, and what is logical and scientific.AmyAnne:ConclusionThe proof goes on about sugar and caffeine? That's not scientific. That is propaganda.
The hypothesis that immersing teeth in soft drinks will cause tooth erosion and the teeth to lose some of their weight has been proven to be true.Soft drinks are very popular among children, teenagers and adults. Other than tooth enamel erosion, soft drinks are also associated with obesity, low nutrition and diabetes. This is because most soft drinks contain high levels of sugar, including fructose and sucrose. The presence of caffeine in some soft drinks can also cause sleep disorders and anxiety.
The next section there:
Also considerThey're equating chalk with teeth, it seems.
The science fair project can also be repeated to test the effects of soft drinks on other calcium-rich materials, by using pieces of chalk instead of teeth.The experiment may also be modified to test the effects of fruit juice on tooth enamel, by using natural juices like lemon juice, orange juice or pineapple juice.
And orange juice is stronger than coke. I don't know about lemon or pineapple.Here's a more careful experiment with whether Coke will dissolve nails (another standard claim):
"Will Coke Dissolve A Nail?" Experiment, with a full report, photos, and follow-up testing.-=- Sandra Dodd just because you don't see something as a good example "to you", does not mean it wasn't eye opening for me or someone else who has done this project.--=-
I hope unschooling parents will actually BE scientific, with their children's questions, and learning. Not science-fairific. Not decide first what is evil or bad, or what old wive's tales are to be proven, and THEN do the "experiment."
Sandra Dodd I have to assume you like to argue or debate, (or were you triggered?) and I will elaborate. The irony here is that the idea of radical unschooling is a lot about freedom, yet you have compartmentalized "what is science" to exclude what I, personally, remembered of a science experiment in order to claim it does not count and adds nothing to the conversation. Observation and experimenting is itself a definition of science so I consider this Science. The experiment is what it is and there is no debating the results, but it is your page, and so of course you will always win. Have a lovely evening.Jo Isaac:
==The irony here is that the idea of radical unschooling is a lot about freedom==AmyAnne:No, it isn't.
==The experiment is what it is and there is no debating the results==
There is absolutely cause to question the results, and the methods, and thus the conclusions. If an experimental design is flawed, its results don't count.
Jo Isaac Seriously? What has gotten into you guys? When did this stop being about sharing memories of projects to arguing with people, who are interested in the same things, on the internet? If that is what you are really about then I dont want to be a part of it. Yes freedom is important to me, not the confined rules set neatly into articles you follow as dictated by your unschooling leaders. Talk about irony.Sandra Dodd:
-=- When did this stop being about sharing memories of projects to arguing with people, who are interested in the same things, on the internet?-=-Sandra Dodd:"The same thing," in this group, is what helps radical unschooling work well for a family. It's the only topic.
The post didn't answer any of the questions in my initial post. It told a story of a poorly designed "experiment." Unschooling parents should know and care about what science is, and if this topic didn't make someone want to know more, then that reader isn't using this group as well as it could be used. :-)
If you don't want to follow the links and read more, then this probably won't be a good group for you.
-=-Seriously? What has gotten into you guys? -=-
Do you know who Jo Isaac is? Can you tell her from others in this group? She's an admin, for one thing. She is a scientist, for another. /joisaac/
If you have no idea who I am, then you could ask what has gotten into me. But I have been consistent, about unschooling, and logic, and clarity.
-=-When did this stop being about sharing memories of projects-=-
Please re-read my post above, with thoughts of WHY I would have written that, and what the point was. One small part of it was "Briefly, if possible (or super-interestingly, if it's long) write something about science that clarifies your thinking and might help with someone else's."
I think the part you responded to was "Those who have participated and visited science fairs in schools, what are the best projects you can remember?"
Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I meant what science fair projects were the best—really good ones that anyone can remember. If an "experiment" without scientific methodology was the best you can remember, then that says something about science fairs.
The link Jo Isaac brought is not about "confined rules." It's about what "freedom" isn't and why it's not a good basis for someone's unschooling philosophy. Learning is better. Peace and contentedness are better. CHOICES are fantastic.
Clarity, throughout all of that, and mindfulness of what the unschooling parent is doing, and why, will raise unschooling up from muddly whatever, to a longterm life of shared learning.
On that same science fair site, this page is better. It has directions for the scientific method, and how to set up with variables and a control group. Those are all links, on the page. Sciencer Project Coach The Science Fair: An IntroductionJessica Hughes:The Science Fair
An IntroductionScientific Method
The Question
Research
HypothesisThe Experiment
How to perform your experiment
The experiment variables
The control group
Materials
I've heard of this experiment and I always wondered how soaking teeth in something for two weeks is evidence of what happens when that something is briefly introduced, repeatedly, to teeth with intermittent cleansing.Sandra Dodd:You said you "learned people should stop drinking soda" but not that you learned they should stop drinking orange juice or lemonade even though you subsequently reference the similar effects of citric acids on tooth enamel. That suggests to me there was more issue with soda as a "junk" drink than with the science behind its effects on teeth.
One of the most important parts of Unschooling is to not parent out of fear. Examining places where we might make unnecessarily limiting decisions based on unfounded fears is important.
Sandra Dodd:If we look scientifically at the science fair project brought as an example (instructions for a project), I've found another couple of objections. The image. Without overtly saying so, the suggestion is that this is evidence.
The "conclusion" given for people to use if they use that science fair project is NOT "a conclusion." A conclusion should be a summary of the findings of the experiment. Soaking teeth in Coke does NOT prove their "conclusion," which was:
ConclusionThe page does NOT present a good example of a science experiment. It doesn't follow the guidelines presented on the other page (above) about how an experiment should be set up.
The hypothesis that immersing teeth in soft drinks will cause tooth erosion and the teeth to lose some of their weight has been proven to be true.Soft drinks are very popular among children, teenagers and adults. Other than tooth enamel erosion, soft drinks are also associated with obesity, low nutrition and diabetes. This is because most soft drinks contain high levels of sugar, including fructose and sucrose. The presence of caffeine in some soft drinks can also cause sleep disorders and anxiety.
Jessica Hughes wrote "I always wondered how soaking teeth in something for two weeks is evidence of what happens when that something is briefly introduced, repeatedly, to teeth with intermittent cleansing."AmyAnne:Saliva counteracts damage in the mouth, too. And even if mouths were bone dry like a long-extracted tooth, the soda is in there for seconds. But mouths are NOT dry, and saliva is there to encapsulate (in a way) and neutralize whatever people eat.
So if my expirement memory did not meet your strict regulations Sandra, why not ignore it? You felt the need to attack it. For as much as you guys argue, disagree, and post frequent articles it's really surprising. What a waste of energy just trying to be right all the time, and while supposedly being radical? You completely missed my point earlier. Do you really expect all radical unschoolers to follow you and your minions every rule? We pave our own paths, I'm not spending my hours reading your rules to everything, I dont like your manner of authority so I'll remain rebellious. I dont use fear on my kids Jessica, they've tried soda and they dont like the bubbles. Science is not always about the results Sandra, it's also about the experimenting and observation. Im starting to see why there are people who hate this group. I really dont need the strict regulations of this group so go ahead and remove me. Enjoy the day and not random comments you dont like on the internet ladies.Sandra Dodd:
Posts in this group should not ever be "random comments."AmyAnne:If it did not meet the FEW guidelines for posts, the reason it should NOT be ignored is because the purpose of the group is to help people understand unschooling better. You didn't "randomly" enter this group. You requested membership, and were approved by an admin. Even before joining, you could have (should have) read the purpose of the group. Every month or so, there's a note to read the pinned posts.
Though you joined in 2016, it seems you didn't post until this topic. That's okay, but if you're shocked at the way the group is, it seems you might have noticed before this week.
On the side, someone wrote:
It definitely came off as a back door attempt at fear mongering. Also "Unschooling is about freedom" but also "people should stop drinking soda."
Congratulations you missed the point again. I stand by what I say and to me it has nothing to do with "fear" but obviously you saw it that way. You are so hung up on your guidelines and how unschooling is represented that you dont realize that it also isolates people into not liking the group. Now I'm seeing the negative aspect of it right now. Your manner comes across like you are on a high horse. The filter to comply is too thick. I co admin our local group and we stress the importance of not isolating people and being accepting of the differences each family has in personal choices like religion etc. If I dont drink sodas because I see them as unhealthy then instead of taking it personally because you drink them try to ignore the trigger and move on. No one is exactly alike. My post wasn't even about drinking the soda it was the experimenting with teeth in soda which IS science. Yes freedom is part of the point of unschooling, you dont own the idea or the word so you cant enforce that rule, I dont agree with your rule about freedom but I will agree to disagree. You said we have the freedom of choice, and that I agree with.Jessica Hughes:
[AmyAnne] you said "You are so hung up on your guidelines and how unschooling is represented that you dont realize that it also isolates people into not liking the group."As Sandra Dodd [wrote?says?] the purpose of this group is not to have the most people like it, it is to improve the lives of children and families *specifically* through the principles of Radical Unschooling. As clearly stressed in the pinned posts to which Sandra Dodd alluded, comments are to be carefully thought out and geared toward *all readers* not just a single poster, which is why it does not matter whether *you personally* felt you were fear-mongering. Your language as posted, *was* exactly that. "I learned that people *should stop drinking soda*" [because soda "literally" turns teeth to sponges] is a fear-based declaration of "ought" and as such was appropriately challenged for the benefit of the hundreds of readers who might see that and think "Oh my goodness! Soda will turn my children's teeth to LITERAL SPONGES?!"
Also: "If I dont drink sodas because I see them as unhealthy then instead of taking it personally because you drink them try to ignore the trigger and move on."
I don't drink soda. I don't personally like it. No one here has taken anything personally or been "triggered" by your post. They are doing what they've done with every post made in your entire tenure of membership here: Examining its validity, parsing its meaning as it may be seen by others seeking information on how to bring more joy and more experience into their lives, and responding accordingly to keep the conversation on track. That track being the expression and exploration of the principles of Radical Unschooling.
And: "My post wasn't even about drinking the soda it was the experimenting with teeth in soda which IS science."
The initial comment originally said "I learned to stop drinking sodas from that project" but had been edited to say "I learned that people should stop drinking sodas..."
Which does not square with your original post at all. Since by your own words you say you "learned people should stop drinking sodas from that experiment." It is this kind of self-contradiction that careful thought rather than impassioned defense of a point can help avoid.
When I started here I was also a little put off by the strictures of the group, but seven years here has shown me the benefit of examining our word choices, crafting our responses and comments with care. Many times I began to write something but following these guidelines - that are so well tended here as nowhere else - made me take my time, think hard about what I was going to say or ask, and so often I found I already had the answer, or that I needed to ruminate more before jumping in. This is not a support group. It is not a social circle. It is a very focused place and that focus has been beneficial for many hundreds of families. If it were to be a "Come one, come all, say what you like and get a 'Like'" kind of group (of which I belong to many) it would lose what makes it so effective.
I hope you can look beyond the personal affront of your comment having been questioned, and see the benefit to be had from the particular way this group functions. If not, you won't be the first to flounce away. It's not a flavor everyone can stomach. Here, the quality and veracity of information posted is more important than any one person's feelings, and that can be hard. I've been on the receiving end so I know. But the benefits our family has enjoyed thanks to the quality of information I found here has been well worth it.
Sandra Dodd:
-=-You are so hung up on your guidelines and how unschooling is represented that you dont realize that it also isolates people into not liking the group.-=-Sandra Dodd:You're not isolated. You're one click away from all of the rest of the internet.
You're still in your own house! We have not taken any of your friends or relatives away.There are millions of groups on facebook. Nobody could like all of them. Some people don't like any of them. 🙂 Don't stay in a group you don't like.
-=- Your manner comes across like you are on a high horse.-=-
Please try not to use phrases that are living in your head from having heard others use them. It's the transference of insult, but it's not clear thought.
-=- The filter to comply is too thick.-=-
What filter?
There is a pinned post/announcement that says very plainly to read before posting:
BEFORE YOU POST, there is some reading.READ THAT BEFORE POSTING!
-=-I co admin our local group and we stress the importance of not isolating people and being accepting of the differences each family has in personal choices like religion etc. -=-
That's a local meet-up group. I ran one for years when my kids were little. That's a very different thing from a group set up to discuss philosophy and principles, internationally. That can be done without even knowing what people's religion or politics are, or what country they live in, whether they're gay, straight, married, single, divorced, polyamorous, dog lovers, cat lovers, allergic to all animals, whether they're rich with nannies and cleaning ladies or whether they're poor on welfare.... VERY rarely something comes up, and it usually doesn't change the way that principles should be considered and applied.
The way kids learn openly and honestly from the world around them can be hampered if parents have not deschooled well. If parents are still attached to school or schoolishness, if parents have prejudices or places they don't want to examine, they can't be as good at unschooling as parents who relax back into learning.
I've seen many families succeed, I've seen some wander off because it's not easy, and I've seen some fail. This group exists to help more succeed, and fewer fail.
Feel free to wander off, if you want to. Staying here will not change the group.
I'm going to take all of this elsewhere without the name of the person who wrote it. In a way it's a waste of time, but another facet of it is a demonstration of an unwillingness to consider that something might not be scientific, or valid, and is worth reconsidering.
-=-Yes freedom is part of the point of unschooling, you dont own the idea or the word so you cant enforce that rule...I dont agree with your rule about freedom-=-
There is no "rule" anyone has tried to enforce. One of the admins made a clarification and offered you something to read. You don't want to click the link and read, but a dozen others probably will. I won't check. If they learn from it, that will bring more peace to their families. If they don't it won't take any peace away from mine.
I don't own the idea or the word "unschooling," but I do own this group (within facebook guidelines).
When you join another group, please read the introductory posts. Try not to wait three years before posting, or if you do, please don't get angry that the group is just as it was before you joined, and when you joined.
-=-You are so hung up on your guidelines and how unschooling is represented that you dont realize that it also isolates people into not liking the group.-=-I'm not "hung up." I am dedicated. I am committed, to the group, and to how unschooling is represented here.
I don't care if people like the group or not. It's based on several other discussions over the past 25 years, on platforms that are gone now, but some of the participants are the same from ten, fifteen, twenty—a few from AOL, when my oldest was seven or eight years old.
Some people like it.
Some people don't.I will maintain the group, while I can. If all the others decide they don't like it, and leave, there are LOTS of things I can do with this time.
When Parents have IssuesDeschooling
