Food and unschooling

What's the deal!?

Transcript of chat from Friday, February 27, 2009, somewhat edited, still will be hard to follow because we typed FAST and people were happily excited.

WARNING: much greasy meat discussed early on; some mention of sex later; a little bit of "the F word" (in context of cooking shows, not gratuitously)

Schuyler: Food. I like food.

JillP: Food , Yum. I love it.

Schuyler: Hi Laura

LauraBowman: i like food too
no, i looove food

hahamommy: : Since I just finished my Sunnyside Up, I'm ready to wax poetic about eggs and bacon .:-D

Zamozo: me too!

Schuyler: But not chocolate on fruit

LauraBowman: LOL

RobynC: Is it a good thing to come to a food chat when hungry?

Schuyler: or fruit under chocolate
I'm hungry.
I'm cooking dinner though

Zamozo: What is it about bacon? I'm hearing and seeing about it everywhere.

JillP: ::::plugs ears :::::: and will not listen to Diana. /jealous

hahamommy: chocolate and fruit

LauraBowman: i just had a banana and apple

Schuyler: So I may be sated before the talk is done

RobynC: I'm procrastinating making breakfast until Jayn gets up.

hahamommy: I recently filled a double boiler with chocolate chunks and left it there, simmering with pretzels, marshmallows and graham crackers nearby... I was pretty dang popular that week ..;-)

LauraBowman: that sounds gooood

JillP: I'm now hungry. just got in from walking the dogs.

Zamozo: They're holding a bacon festival in Iowa this month - bacon capital of the world!

RobynC: How long can chocolate simmer before (or if) it goes funky somehow?

LauraBowman: i'm looking at the names here and thinking i'm probably the only person coming here to learn something...LOL

hahamommy: It was such an odd thought, to leave warm chocolate out and about... though It was one of those "sure wish someone had done it for me" moments

LauraBowman: you guys are all old pros

hahamommy: a couple of hours/day for a few days and it's still yummy ..

LauraBowman: i have sooo many of those "wish someone had done it for me" guides a lot of my parenting

RobynC: OK - definitely a to do!

SandraDodd: Hey, I was eating green seedless grapes and Thin Mint Girl Scout cookies!

hahamommy: I used to think midwest bacon was best, then I met Jon and discovered what I really love is Jewish bacon
(no offense intended!!)
"wish someone had done it for me" drives my attitude towards food in general I wish no one had called me Thunder Thighs at 14...

SandraDodd: I like the breakfast bacon in England. It's nothing like anything, and it looks like Canadian bacon, kind of, but it tastes like Virginia ham.

hahamommy: I wish I was related to someone who has a healthy relationship with food...

JillP: Need some good traveling food ideas. We're going to Denver later (Xtreme Challenge gym!) I don't have much in the house, but will stop at grocery before we leave town.

hahamommy: (thank goodness I'm working hard so Hayden will never have to say that!!)

RobynC: I recall the bacon in Australia still has the rind attached. It gets chewy.

SandraDodd: Chocolate should only be done over boiling water, not straight-on-simmering, officially, though I do hot fudge and normal fudge cooking over a fire, but you have to be there and stir it. "Not long." That's the answer

mindyh: My kids will go through 3 lbs of bacon like it's nothing...a foody favorite around here

LauraBowman: it's chips and salsa that we go through here like crazy

Zamozo: I often make muffins - bran & raisin, or banana/choc chip for car trips

SandraDodd: Laura, I really will come back to the chat-related bit you posted, but first I have this to say about bacon: ahem

hahamommy: Protein is *so* important! Like just now, without making issue of it, I know Hayden's been up all night to go to a homeschool thingie later this morning.... So we have a standing Friday Date, wherein we drive Scotty to work at 8 and pick up breakfast!

SandraDodd: Last week I made bacon for the first time in months and months. I made bacon sandwiches for me and Marty.

RobynC: Travel foods- there is a new fruit bar at Costco. Like fruit leathers but thicker and softer. They end up costing about 75 cents per bar, the equivalent of two pieces of fruit (they do make you poop!) And the brand is Sun-Rype Fruitsource.

mindyh: Jill, one of our favorite travel foods is to make popcorn with coconut oil, and top it with butter and salt. I fix a big bag for each kid.

LauraBowman: the only time i miss bacon is when i think of a BLT...mmm...but i don't care much for fake bacon

SandraDodd: But the best thing was the byproduct, which was I poured off the clean bacon grease and fried eggs in it twice that week and THAT is better than all the bacon in the world, eggs over easy fried in bacon grease

hahamommy: I like to mix craisins, banana chips and almonds for anytime snacky - totally portable! I get dry toast (to avoid the diary) and the cook puts my bacon on top of it for the ride home ..;-)

mindyh: John's grandma (from Northern England) made a bacon dripping sandwich every day for lunch.

Zamozo: we do gorp or trail mix - mixed nuts, raisins/craisin, m&m's etc. and put it in a ziplock with a couple of paper cups handy for snacking in the car.

JillP: Good ideas...I make popcorn lots, and then don't think about traveling with it...that's going with us today!

LauraBowman: my fave car food is chips =)...lay's original!!! keeps the car sickness away

hahamommy: no one can eat just one! pistachios!

SandraDodd: Mindy, what's that like? Just dip the bread in it? Use it as a spread?

Zamozo: my kids like Slim Jims (a kind of spicy meat stick) -- special treat -- only when we're taking a driving trip -- I'd buy it for them other times if they wanted but they like saving it for car trips.

mindyh: Sophie LOVES Lays Original...she's a purist about those chips!

LauraBowman: i knew i liked that girl sophie!!

RobynC: I still make ham or turkey sandwiches cut into quarter triangles for the food bag. We also love jerky and tend to look for roadside stands or local smokehouses.

hahamommy: funny, Hayden like Beef Jerkey, mostly in the car ..

Schuyler: Bacon drippings in the middle. Like a spread a s'pose

hahamommy: is it because it's sold in gas stations??

Schuyler: I s'pose

SandraDodd: When the sorooshians visited, they brought us some chips and I didn't pay enough attention to know what it was, but they were pressure cooked without grease, and not baked, I think.

RobynC: Jayn's favorite chip is Tim's Hawaiian Maui Onion.

JillP: Sandra, get that recipe that sounds yummy.

LauraBowman: onion...mmm

JillP: Oh did they make them or buy them?

SandraDodd: bought

Schuyler: Simon and Linnaea really like potato peelings fried in our deep fat fryer at the moment They trump store bought

hahamommy: I'm getting really chip spoiled, moving just down the road from Kettle Chips ..;-)

mindyh: Sandra, she would lay hot bacon fat on toasted bread and eat it like a sandwhich.

SandraDodd: It sounds simultaneously horrible and wonderful.

RobynC: Costco has freeze dried fat free potatoe chips, (as well as the freeze dried fruits). I think they taste like paper. But other people seem to like them. Better with a dip of some kind.

SandraDodd: I guess it's too early in California for me to wake Roxana up and ask her about potato chips.

Zamozo: cut up veggies - like carrots, blanched snow peas, cauliflower etc. would be good on a car trip

JillP: I think I want a deep fat fryer. I've been making beignets.

SandraDodd: It's a grease fest in here thusfar!

mindyh: John said she waould also put butter on the bread before she put the bacon fat on...theyy also made fried bread a lot, and anytime there is leftover bacon fat, John will heat it up and cook bread in it.

JennyC: just joining, jenny here from Oregon with 2 kids 14 and 7

Schuyler: I love our deep fat fryer

SandraDodd: Diana, I meant to ask you in advance to invite the blogger who allegedly supposedly says she can't possibly unschool because my kids are fat.

RobynC: We have one. I wish I knew someone making biodiesel to give my oil to. But I don't - nearby anyway.

hahamommy: Ah, thank goodness she's not in my realm I only had to *hear* about her ..;-)

JillP: Yes, I've been reading all your frying things, Schuyler. that's waht makes me want one.

SandraDodd: I want to show her photos of my kids.

hahamommy: But it did ocme up on a list again, the thought of no restrictions leading directly to obesity

Schuyler: Last night Simon asked for more cabbage with salt on it. He was full up of all the other stuff, but the red cabbage was what really appealed

hahamommy: I think of my own childhood, barren of food, though worse than my mother's family....

Zamozo: I'm obese and I was restricted. I suspect that I have suppressed food control memories from my childhood -- I remember some but not enough to explain my messed up relationship with food

RobynC: If no restrictions leads to obesity, then restrictions should mean no obesity - but it doesn't.

SandraDodd: I bought red cabbage just a few days ago for a salad. I put just a little lettuce, proportional to lots of avocado, tomato and mushrooms. And grilled tuna on the top.

hahamommy: My mother and her sister especially struggle with their weight/feelings of being depraved deprived -- oops!

Schuyler: David has ideas on food choice

LauraBowman: red cabbage with EVOO and salt...good stuff

Schuyler: If I can get him to sit down and tell me stuff
I'll type

SandraDodd: Laura wanted something. I'm looking in my first saved-off word file...

LauraBowman: i have tons of food issues from watching my mom struggle with obesity and its effect on her health all my life

hahamommy: soy sauce/powdered ginger/oil makes a great dressing for cabbage salad, too .. sunflower seeds and craisins...

Schuyler: There are a few studies on food choice in children.

LauraBowman: i wanted somethign???

mindyh: I have had issues with food my entire life...we were pretty restricted as kids. My mom was a health food nut for a lot of my childhood. We had really good stuff, like she ground her own wheat, made all of our bread, etc. But I remember all us kids sneakin

SandraDodd: NO, I guess I wanted something fro you, Laura. Examples, please:
" i have sooo many of those "wish someone had done it for me" guides a lot of my parenting"

Schuyler: If food is withheld and given as a reward or certain foods are withheld

SandraDodd: (David, don't worry about the conversations overlapping each other. It happens in these chats.)

Schuyler: then children tend not to be able to control their intake of theose foods.

RobynC: I'm so glad that I read about really young kids eating healthily if allowed to graze a wide range of foods while I was pregnant. The next step of truly letting go of ideas about labelling food "junk" or "nutritious" was much easier ..

LauraBowman: oh yeah, simple stuff like when i was a kid if you asked for something the response was "get it yourself"

JennyC: what was worse for me than withholding, was the being forced to eat things that I didn't want to eat

RobynC: because I knew a modicum of science

hahamommy: we didn't have a lot, much of the time, so when we *did* get something in quantity, we had to quickly consume it "to get our share" -- soon my mom stopped buying things like milk, because we drank it. Still it's tough for me to see a full fridge consumed quickly, I want to SEE a lot of food.

LauraBowman: i was at a friends house and she asked for choc milk and her mom got it for made a huge impression on me

hahamommy: instead of making an issue, I just shop more often

JillP: So it messes up that satiated feeling, David? Schuyler?

Schuyler: Yes. Absolutely

mindyh: sneaking chocolate chips because that was only thing sweet in the house. We also have a family story about the time my dad brought home one snicker bar to share between all five kids and himself. When i went to get my 1/6 of the snickers. my dad took it away because he thought I had taken 2 pieces.

Schuyler: David's been working on a paper based in some large part on Pam's Economics of TV Watching
Schuyler: They don't know when they are full
Girls are particularly bad at self-regulating their diet after they've been controlled by their parents

They no longer know what full is because they've been told what it is for so long

LauraBowman: that's sad mindy =(

SandraDodd: I remember when I was a kid being told repeatedly in school that humans had no instincts left.

hahamommy: oh mindy, I remember eating my aunt's AYDS (diet candies/appetite suppesors) because they were *close* to chocolate

SandraDodd: So why would it even have occurred to me that I would "know" anything like that I was full? Seriously...

RobynC: Oh those ads for AYDS are on the Failblog.

SandraDodd: But my kids won't eat a single nut more than they actually want. It's stunning, really. It still surprises me.

hahamommy: I ate boxes and boxes as a kid my babysitting mission was to find them!

mindyh: I always say to my dad, "Hey guess what? I just bought all the kids their very own candy bar!"

JennyC: and some kids, like me, when I was little, didn't like the feeling of full and would have liked to stop eating prior to that and couldn't

LauraBowman: LOL mindy

Zamozo: I limited my kids when they were younger -- not proud of it, still seeing the effects

LauraBowman: me too zamozo

SandraDodd: Mindy, it's sad, a memory like missing out on 1/6 of a candy bar.

Jenners26: We had sort of a weird situation where my mother would buy nothing but junk food. She would buy dozens of those little debbie style treats at a time....and then leave them on the counter and we were supposed to only have 1/2 a package at a time...

JillP: How old were they when you stopped, Chris?

RobynC: Jayn also eats only exactly as much as she wants on any occasion. The only food that has any magic to her is a Birthday Cake.

hahamommy: Foods, especially things like homemade cookies, tasted so good and were so foreign to my experience, I didn't want the experience to end, so I ate long after being full

LauraBowman: i'm still working on not offering something"healthy" when they ask for something "not healthy"

SandraDodd: I remember my mom counting out M&Ms into cups so the four of us would have exactly the same number.
And she counted grapes, too, I just remembered (sitting here with a whole stem of grapes to myself)

Zamozo: about 6 and 12

Jenners26: like if 2 twinkies were wrapped together, we could only eat one of them. It led to some major sneaking/overeating issues for me later on

JennyC: i used to eat half a jelly bean and put it back in my desk, which was in my bedroom, to save for later because we only got them every once in a while

Schuyler: The way the studies are done is they give children shakes that have either lots of calories or almost no calories.
Those children who haven't had food access limited or manipulated will not eat after they've had a calorie rich shake
The children who have had food controlled will eat a bunch after either shake

JillP: I can see where Sandra, really get's people to stop restricitng / controlling. Now. It does have long term effects.

hahamommy: Hayden picked his own flavor 1/2 birthday cake, was so excited about it, after eating breakfast, he got his cake "to go" and brought it home for Scotty!

SandraDodd: Diana, I was the same way, and still occasionally am. I love chocolate cake and I think each one might be the last one I ever see in this lifetime, apparently.

mindyh: I also controlled my kids in the beginning. It wasn't until I was and heard Sandra and Ren talking about food that it clicked for me. Letting them make their own choices about food was no different than letting them make their own choices

JillP: Best chocolate cake ever....Red Devil Cake. has beets in it %-)

hahamommy: I'd like that one Jill!!

LauraBowman: we didn't have food restrictions..but there was always a sense of "not enough"

hahamommy: I'm all about coloring food with beets!!

Schuyler: Food was a weird one for us because the story is that we are focused on fats and sugars because they were rare in the environments that humans spent most of their time adapting to

SandraDodd: Pam, what were those chips you brought when you came to visit, that Roxana loves so much?

LauraBowman: to go around i mean

hahamommy: pink mashed taters ..

Jenners26: It's amazing to me sometimes when I make cookies, to watch my five year old actually limit himself....he'll eat two or three, and then say, "No more junk food for me...I'll get sick!"

SandraDodd: Jenners, but he's calling homemade cookies "junk food"? Evil term.

Jenners26: He has a pretty sensitive tummy, and he's really learned to follow his own cues

RobynC: It's a shame that he thinks of your beautiful cookies "junk food"

hahamommy: When I make a cake "just because" no wait, I do that because "I wish someone had done it for me"

Jenners26: lol

mindyh: I struggled with the "get my fair share" thing for a long time. I had to get over that feeling and emotion so I could get to a place where I wasn't overeating.

Jenners26: that's ture true

hahamommy: I leave it out with forks and we all nibble on it for the next couple of days

Schuyler: But it seems we are more flexible than that, rare good doesn't have to be fats and sugars. Rare good in our house can be rice crackers or ripe, just picked strawberries

JennyC: The fresh berries here for sure!

hahamommy: food with though is a super treat around here, doesn't much matter what it IS

Schuyler: Seasonal things are much rarer than are candy bars and potato chips

JennyC: Those don't last at our house, they get eaten down to the very last berry, and then I have to go pick more

LauraBowman: me too mindy...i still struggle with that scarcity thign

hahamommy: burger for Meatloaf Monday makes Hayden veeery happy

RobynC: Jayn wanted a cheesecake. I discovered that too much does a number on my tummy. But it was a huuuuge cake - so we are freezing it in cut portions for later. I just make sure my portion is smaller. However there is still 1/3 of the thing left

Zamozo: my 17yo, once restricted (5 years ago) eats a lot more snack food when his friends are over - social eating?

SandraDodd: Keith brought raspberries from costco the other day, and blackberries, and we just opened them and people ate them as they passed by. They lasted a full day. They were great.

LauraBowman: cheesecake...mmm. scotty makes the best cheesecake

Schuyler: Are you offering lots of food when his friends are over? Is it faster and easier to get at food?

Zamozo: chips, crackers, cheese puffs -- veggies, cheese, fruit yes, but they're available when the friends aren't here too

LauraBowman: i think social situations burn more calories

Jenners26: You are killing a pregnant girl here with all this cheesecake talk!!

Schuyler: Right, but maybe the turn around time is more important when his friends are over.

JennyC: and it's fun to eat with other people

mindyh: It is very apparent when kids come over who are resticted. I've mentioned on a local list that we have a family of friends, and when they come over, especially without their parents, they will go through baked goods like locusts. I'm talking 5 dozen...

LauraBowman: the talking, laughing, all that makes you sex

hahamommy: eating and talking... makes sense

SandraDodd: How could cheesecake hurt a pregnant girl?

Jenners26: Must add cream cheese to my food shopping list!

Zamozo: Laura -- LOL!

mindyh: ...cookies once at Christmas. My kids just don't do that.

Jenners26: I just meant I want some now ..

hahamommy: that's right Laura, It's a lot of work to warm a room the way I do ..;-)

SandraDodd: some sex? (OH.... wait....)

RobynC: Pam's here - she could answer that chip question

Jenners26: LOL
either one

SandraDodd: I asked her but she didn't.

LauraBowman: my nieces and nephews will gorge on fruit when they come to my house because it's abundant here but they don't have it at home

hahamommy: When I'm tight on cash, I find things away from my kitchen to do with my niece and nephew... sometimes I can afford their Binge at Auntie's house, but not regularly!

LauraBowman: LOL, diana

JennyC: I had a neighbor boy that did that too, he'd come over and eye our fruit bowl and want every thing in it because he never had fruit at home

PamSoroosh: what was the chip question?

RobynC: I love finding new exotic fruits to try, either dried or fresh. Last trip to TJ's we bought dried hibiscus flowers and miniature pears.

SandraDodd: We used to get those freezer ops for company. Cheap, mostly water, BIG excitement for kids with limits at home.

hahamommy: then again, I was that binging kid at others' homes, so I make a point to give back when I can (and sometimes when I think I can't!)

SandraDodd: the freezer pops in plastic tubes

JennyC: TJ's is good for that!

SandraDodd: Pam, you brought chips when you came to visit. What were those? Cooked some artsy way

JennyC: We always keep popcorn and we have an air popper, it's cheap and filling and almost everybody likes it

PamSoroosh: Otter Pops - we get them at target in big boxes and keep them in the freezer and offer them to the kids when they came to swim in the pool.

SandraDodd: Those are the ones.

PamSoroosh: Pop Chips.

JennyC: In the summer we do popcycles, the big bags of cheap ones

SandraDodd: Otter pop chips!??

PamSoroosh: We first got them at Jamba Juice - but then they started having them at grocery stores.


PamSoroosh: Yeah - like otters would taste good

SandraDodd: Thanks.

Schuyler: Somebody will have to ship them for us to try. Dangit

RobynC: I know I was controlled and limited as a child. But I also remember being sent to the kitchen to eat at the counter if I had misbehaved some way. I have no recollection of the offenses just the punishment. I liked eating alone so I could read

JennyC: Chamille would like those chips!

SandraDodd: I could try to bring some in July. Send a grocery list.

Schuyler: I'll have a bacon dripping sandwich instead

SandraDodd: So, Schuyler...

hahamommy: aaah schuyler, less than 90 days, I'll buy you some at Safeway ..

Schuyler: Or a black pudding

SandraDodd: What does David figure about children regaining the ability to sense what their body needs? Oh right! Schuyler will be here before long.

RobynC: My favorite English food is sausage rolls

LauraBowman: good question sandra...

mindyh: like black pudding??? John loves it, but I just cannot eat it!

Schuyler: I like pork pies

hahamommy: I like saying Pork Pies I'd crack up Linnaea

Schuyler: David says, the scientific literature hasn't gone there, so he can't speak from applied science

PamSoroosh: My kids eat great at home, but they are very busy young adults and fast food is much more convenient for them than getting hungry and waiting to go home to make something to eat.

SandraDodd: But what does he think?

PamSoroosh: And, it is difficult to eat much fast food without way overeating fats.

Schuyler: But he assumes that you can change the marginal utility of any food

hahamommy: Pam, do you find they're fussy about their fast food?

Schuyler: But it will take time

SandraDodd: Because I'm better at it, but I don't think I'll ever be "cured"

Schuyler: It will take a willingness to let them be sated and more

PamSoroosh: They are fussy about their fast food in a way, yes.

SandraDodd: And my kids don't have the problem at all.

hahamommy: hayden's gotten more of a refined palate... not just any ol' burger any more

JennyC: my kids are very fussy about their fast food

Zamozo: my 11 yo still has trouble discerning whether she's hungry or feeling some other kind of discomfort

Schuyler: I've never had black pudding But it was at the butcher's today
And wild rabbit
Simon wants to try it.

RobynC: Jayn will tell the server at the food court to stop piling more on her plate.

SandraDodd: I used to go through two or three drive-throughs for my kids, and it was healing for me.

mindyh: We have had endless dialogue about fast food. My oldest, Alex, absolutely won't eat fast food, but the others have no problem with it.

SandraDodd: I'll still do it. I offered to do it for Holly the other day, if she wanted something from Blakes and I wanted Wendy's.

Zamozo: I do that too Sandra

hahamommy: the more adventurous Hayden becomes with food, the more he demands from his food - it's not the right word...

JennyC: Sandra, I think the younger you are, the easier and more likely you will be to regain your natural food abilities

LauraBowman: mindy, do you think that has to do with his being the oldest and maybe more affected by earlier "healthy" ideas about food...that seems to be the case with samuel.

SandraDodd: I bet it's not just biological.

PamSoroosh: but, they do like french fries and chicken sandwiches that are deep friend and real (not diet) soda. Once in a while is fine, but when someone eats fast food most of the time, it seems inevitable that they will put on extra weight.

RobynC: We have done multiple drive throughs a lot. Usually two - one for Jayn, one for James. I am usually able to find something I like at any one.

Schuyler: Simon and Linnaea have high standards when it comes to food, is that what you meant Diana?

SandraDodd: I mean this is also biological, but I think the feeling of shame or fear is harder to get rid of than a neutral assessment of desire for a food.

PamSoroosh: ha - i said deep friend -- -mean deep fried.

LauraBowman: we usually have to hit a taco bell for sadie if we go to get pizza because she doesn't like pizza

hahamommy: My weight didn't shift based on my fast-food consumption....

SandraDodd: If all the voices in your head argue with you even when you yourself think you know if you're hungry or not, maybe it's hard-to-impossible to overcome.

RobynC: deep Freud?

SandraDodd: We had a dog when I was a kid and my parents never let her in the house at all.

hahamommy: though moving more, I crave different foods (brightly colored naturally)

LauraBowman: i like deep friends too

hahamommy: and that has shifted my weight

JennyC: Yes, and that fear and shame can definitely override any persons inate sense of what they need in regards to food

Schuyler: How do you separate comfort from food

SandraDodd: Once they were gone, and we tried to get the dog in, to show her around, but she would NOT come in.

Schuyler: ?

PamSoroosh: All of us notice our weight going up when we have a month or two of eating really a lot of fast food.

SandraDodd: NO WAY. We tried to carry her in, and she resisted.

Guest79: I've never wanted to eat at Mc Donalds. I did nce in a while when I was in my 20's because it was convenient, but it was never a forbidden fruit (although it wasn't around in France and Tahiti when I was growing up). I actually never much liked the taste

SandraDodd: Her training was bigger than our invitations.

hahamommy: Sometimes I knowingly crave food-for-comfort

Guest79: of any fast food.

hahamommy: I go ahead and eat what I need, knowing my soul's comfort is important too....

JennyC: good question Schuyler

Schuyler: I had the best Burger King burger the other day
it was so evocative and so yummy and so perfect

hahamommy: like the other night, I was alone and I had to have my very own happy meal so I got one

Schuyler: I even got to take the pickles off like I always used to do

SandraDodd: I have never had a burger king burger. Sometimes I think I will, but when I get there the fish sandwich calls me.

RobynC: Guest79, I lived in Tahiti for a year when I was 7. (196 .8-)

Schuyler: I had a second and it wasn't as good, but still, it was good.

hahamommy: and ate every single fry my own self (healing that inner 5 year old who's mother ate all the fries on the drive home, is a lot of work!)

SandraDodd: And I will say this about living in a Catholic area: It is FISH SANDWICH season everywhere!

RobynC: Emoticon madness nineteen sixty eight

mindyh: Laura, I don't know...we all discuss different attributes and detriments to choosing different foods, it just seems to have hit a nerve with Alex. We used to eat at McDonalds every Wednesday after rock climbing, and he had no problem with it then, His...

PamSoroosh: We eat with great relish - don't get me wrong. But then we do notice our clothes not fitting and I can always trace it to having been way more busy than usual and eating way more fast food. BeaMantovani: Hi, guest 79 was me, forgot to sign in. Cool robyn

SandraDodd: I suppose in England, burger king wouldn't be the best place to go for fish, though, right?

mindyh: ...opinion has changed alot over the past few years. He is now very interested in where his food is coming from.

SandraDodd: So maybe there I would get a burger

Schuyler: No, the chippies are where you go for fish
Big fish
Foot long fish

BeaMantovani: I was never restricted or controlled about food. (I was the good child, my brother was the problem child, he "didn't eat anything" and my parents had huge battles with him to try to get him to eat. )

hahamommy: Mindy, so is Hayden. He gets burger & fries from the local place, with traceable beef, instead of the combo at bk for the same price

RobynC: Try "The Omnivore's Dilemma" for one man's lengthy exploration of where his food comes from.

hahamommy: I want to read that Robyn!

RobynC: I have the sequel too, sitting on my nightstand waiting.

PamSoroosh: I like his newer book even better - I forgot the name......

hahamommy: I like Douglas Adam's take on eating meat, in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe... I talk to the neighbor's cows as if they work there ..;-)
(they were bred to tell us it's okay to eat them)

JennyC: My oldest daughter has decided that any source of meat is not going to be ok with her, so she doesn't eat meat. sometimes she will eat fish though

RobynC: "Consider my liver"

mindyh: Alot of this change has occured since we moved. We now belong to a CSA, get our milk from our neighbor, raise our own chickens, etc. This has created more of an awareness in all the kids,
Alex is just a bit more "intense" in his opinions/decisions.

RobynC: Walking away for just a minute...

LauraBowman: he and samuel are a lot alike minday =)

hahamommy: US too!! It's an awareness factor he didn't have before

PamSoroosh: Anyway - my kids have had no food issues, no psychological problems with it, and have had absolute food freedom all their lives.

Schuyler: Linnaea's just started eating meat, we've always been good about where we source it, but it is even more important now.

SandraDodd: Look at Pam's family:

mindyh: Laura..I've always thought that! But, Samuel is a vegetarian, right? Not Alex. He likes his meat, just from a local source!


PamSoroosh: But as young adults they've decided to watch the fast food intake - they're careful about how much they eat there - because of experiencing unwanted weight gain.

LauraBowman: we've been on food freedom for a little over a year now

SandraDodd: I lifted that photo just yesterday, from Roya's blog.

LauraBowman: mindy, i'm thinking personality stuff =)

JennyC: My youngest child has had a lot more food freedom from the beginning of her life and is much more able to eat healthier than my older daughter, who was regulated some when she was very little. She had to sort of relearn to listen to what her body needs

hahamommy: Hayden's given up fast food, for the most part, because we live surrounded by incredibly appealing other foods...

PamSoroosh: Their weight gain concern, I should say, has to do with clothes not fitting. They like clothes - they spend time figuring out what to wear and shopping for clothing they like and stuff like that.

mindyh: Definately Laura...maybe that's one reason he likes you so "get" him!

hahamommy: sometimes he asks to go, so he can give thanks for the animals who died for their food. Like McDonald's as his church ..;-)

Schuyler: I lost 20 pounds following Pam's suggestion of eating what I wanted and not what was there.

JennyC: Pam, the clothing issue can flow over into other areas of life too, I've seen it happen with relatives

Schuyler: That was a powerful thing, to choose food and not to eat because I was bored or fidgety. And to enjoy the experience

RobynC: Back. "In Defense of Food" Michael Pollan.

PamSoroosh: I had to give myself my own suggestion again recently - I'd gained weight back. It is entirely psychological for me - eating based on all kinds of things other than hunger.

Schuyler: Oh, I've looked at that book

LauraBowman: sandra directed me to pam awhile back at the beginning of my journey and that made the biggest impression on me...eating what you want...what a concept

RobynC: Diana, I can send you Omnivore's Dilemma if you don't already have it.

PamSoroosh: Thanks Robyn -- I really liked that book. I LOVE the title!!

hahamommy: I don't Robyn I'd love it!!

JennyC: Gaining and losing constantly, and then projecting that onto kids, through food, clothes, etc. The need to buy things that fit right because of the constant weight flucuations.

LauraBowman: i eat when i'm bored...especially in the winter!!

Schuyler: I eat when I'm cold

LauraBowman: and i feel like i just HAVE TO eat when reading or watching tv...mindlessly

hahamommy: I comfort eat and I saw that with Hayden, too, especially after Hannah died... then I thought, well, I'm glad I don't smack or scream... eating is less dangerous than what I *could* do

Schuyler: I like enjoying food. Enjoying food seems like such a big part of sourcing food.

hahamommy: and dealing with my issues in an open and honest way has gone a long way towards not giving those issues to Hayden

Schuyler: If I care about where I came from surely I should enjoy it when I eat it.

mindyh: We began letting go of food controls when Alex was about 5...that was 9 years ago. I think my kids are incredibly healthy. They like food. Alot. They try new things, are free to not like said new things. They have alll surprised me not eating what I had..

PamSoroosh: My point, I think, about the fast food is that my kids had absolute food freedom and truly have no food issues, but they each became aware of the drawbacks of eating a whole lot of fast food or at leat aware that it was possible to choose fast foods that served them better.

BeaMantovani: I eat when I'm tired, I think sometimes I have trouble figuring out if I'm tired because I need to sleep or because i'm hungry (in the middle of the day, not at nigh)

RobynC: I tend not to feel hungry until I am very hungry. I notice my behavior cues, I'll start snacking on nearby bits or polishing Jayn's leftovers. Then I realize that I am probably hungry.

PamSoroosh: I really like seeing my kids gusto for food - I like it that they can really really enjoy it. But they can leave it too if it doesn't please them.

SandraDodd: I've been getting just the sandwich and not the whole meal (fries and drink) more often.

mindyh: always considered a "treat", because they were full. Imagine that? They don't consider sewwts, or dessert a reward in the same I did growing up. I have had to retrain my own self to not consider food as a reward.

JennyC: One thing that really helped me get over the "wasting food" issue, was something Sandra said a long time ago about imagining that they had eaten it and thinking of it being the same, either way the food is gone

LauraBowman: this is really good to hear all the different stories around food and freedom and your early experiences and the outcomes

hahamommy: Food and Comfort: I had a really sad moment when the food I just *knew* would make me feel better was totally unavailable to me!! Wow! that was a wake up call! I actually said to myself "that croissant really isn't gonna make you feel better!!"

SandraDodd: I love fries, but they get me so full I don't eat all the fish. And until easter, it's a drive-through fish-fest.

Schuyler: Oh, I don't live in a Catholic rich world anymore.
I hadn't even thought of lent

hahamommy: Tee hee hee

Schuyler: Talk about food limitations

hahamommy: celebrating Freya day every week!! cracks me up!
And it makes sushi cheaper, too!!

Schuyler: I loved going down to Holy Name Church for the fish fry ups

JennyC: I LOVE the movie Chocolate, it's a great food movie!

SandraDodd: Jenny, I'm trying to remember what I said

PamSoroosh: Part of our food success, i think, has been concentrating on what we want, not on restricting, not on the negatives.

hahamommy: Like Water for Chocolate is, too...
though it's a horny movie ..;-)

BeaMantovani: My three year old will give up a piece of chocolate for a piece or raw carrot or raw brocolli

JillP: Addi wanted to try giving up something, this Lent idea was new to her. Then she said, nah, there's nothing i want to give up.

Schuyler: My dad was a politician so he'd be back there frying the fish and hamming it up (pork on Frydays?)

SandraDodd: Was it about the cost of the food? Like don't worry once it's bought whether they eat it or not? Please clarify.

LauraBowman: my friend was explaining lent and giving up something they like to their kids and their son asked if they couldn't just give up jesus for lent...LOL

PamSoroosh: So even with this fast food realization, that we gain more weight than we like if we eat fast food often, the answer hasn't been so much to not eat fast food as to be more focused on having food we love prepared in advance and

JennyC: Sandra, it was something along the lines of, if you give a kid some food and they don't eat it all and you need to toss it, you could think of it as if they'd eaten it, either way the food would be gone

Schuyler: Give up going to church on Sunday?

RobynC: I just can't imagine the energy that it would take to try to force Jayn to eat or not eat a certain way, the draining energy it would take to try to make her clean her plate or make her wait.

PamSoroosh: on choosing things we like more, at the fast food places. Being more thoughtful about what we choose. Not feeling deprived or restricted.

JennyC: That's funny Schuyler!

BeaMantovani: lent: my husband is giving up chocolate for lent, he does that every year and then eat dozens of chocolate bars at easter. *sigh* I tell him maybe there's another way, but it's his choice, so I respect it ..

SandraDodd: OH right! I've told Keith that, when he wants to finish something just because it's there. His home food-training was harsh and deep.

RobynC: I remember being young and hungry at my grandmother's house, waiting for dinner an hour or two away and looking at pictures of food in cookbooks to keep me going until the food was ready.

Schuyler: The clean plate club was a part of my childhood

SandraDodd: So I've said you could either run it through your body and poop it out, or just put it in the compost; which is better for you?

hahamommy: I give up mourning alone for Lent, almost every year ..;-)

SandraDodd: Laura, only if they REALLY LOVE Jesus.

JennyC: Bea, watch the movie Chocolate! It's a great movie and it has Jonnie Depp in it
Something like that Sandra!

mindyh: I also think something that was very important to me when I began letting go of the control in a general sense was the idea that certain foods were "bad" Again, this came from Sandra on days. Food is food. Placing judgement on my kids just confused them.

Schuyler: And you get the leftovers before compost sometimes.

LauraBowman: the food is gone either way...oh that is such good information for me to have in my head!! thank you!!!

RobynC: Also "Like Water for Chocolate".

Schuyler: There is a very moral judgement about food

JennyC: It struck a chord with me because I was forced to eat all my food, the clean your plate club, which was a holdover of my dad's poverty stricken childhood

LauraBowman: my niece and nephew would have to be "clean plate rangers"

hahamommy: I found giving up judgment about a whole lotta things makes unschooling better ..;-)

Schuyler: I think for me the key has been realizing that sometimes I really want a snickers bar.

SandraDodd: And it's often dishonest, mindy. People will say "junk" or "bad" or "fast" and then glorify something that's really not very good, but because it's expensive or takes a long time to fix or adults like it better than kids, it gets treated like it's.... like it's a BOOK or something!!

Schuyler: Sometimes there is nothing else that will satisfy me, not a salad, not a sandwich, nothing

Schuyler: So if I have that need, why can't I honor Simon and Linnaea having similar needs

JennyC: Yesterday Chamille at muffins all day long

Schuyler: Or at least understand it.

JennyC: That was all she wanted and that is what she ate

SandraDodd: Schuyler, that "clean plate" and "empty plate" language and concept is why I called my food page "The Full Plate Club."

mindyh: I just read the most facinating article about food and sex. The author was saying that the old morality concerning sex has transferrred to a new morality about food.

JennyC: I love buffets for that!

RobynC: I love that Jayn goes out of her way to offer her candies to her friends when they visit, because they don't have many. She will make sure they have one to take home with them in their pockets.

JennyC: Especially going to a resaurant and being able to eat as much as you want and fill your plate as often as you want and throw away anything you don't want

LauraBowman: i'm having this weird feeling...almost like i'm going to cry right now

Zamozo: (((Laura)))

hahamommy: ((((Laura)))

mindyh: ((((laura))))

PamSoroosh: I was with someone the other day and we wanted to go out to eat. I wanted to go to a salad buffet place - they have pizza, potatoes, soups, pasta - not just sald. She said no - she always eats too much there.

RobynC: Oh Laura. It's OK. ((((((())))))))

hahamommy: Breathe....

LauraBowman: i feel something lifting out of my body!!

RobynC: Go ahead and cry - it's lubrication

LauraBowman: i've been on this journey for what i thought was forever but i know i still have a long way to go

hahamommy: Sandra's honesty with her own childhood food issues, then seeing her kids over days and days of eating, healed something HUGE in me... *I* too am capable of raising kids without food issues.... poweful realization!

JennyC: Food issues weigh so heavy on us don't they?

mindyh: Robyn, I think that's so true...when there is an abundance, people will gladly share. When they feel something is scarce, they will cling to it and horde it for themselves.

SandraDodd: Mindy, the seven deadly sins included gluttony.

Schuyler: Oh, Jenny, was that a pun?

LauraBowman: mindy, there was a great ST voyager episode about hording in a void...that sharing when everyone had only a little made more for everyone

JennyC: I am acting as the buffer for food issues. I grew up with food issues and became an adult with food issues, BUT, I get to be the buffer of all that so my kids don't have to have food issues yes sort of Schuyler!

SandraDodd: I feel that way about lots of areas, Jenny---food and other things too

hahamommy: It's the gift/curse of the first generation unschooing parents ..;-)

RobynC: And then it feeds back and our kids are models for us!

SandraDodd: YES, Robyn.

hahamommy: YES Robyn, that is the best GIFT1

mindyh: Sandra, another pivotal moment for me was when my sister and I came to visit you years ago, and Holly walked to freezer, pulled out the ice cream, and fixed a bowl. Then she asked if anyone else wanted any. We would have NEVER been allowed to do that...

SandraDodd: I emulate my kids lots of times.

LauraBowman: so true robyn

hahamommy: WWMUD - What would my unschooler do?

SandraDodd: Kirby was a hot-headed kid and threw things and broke them, but I was able to help him find ways to change his responses. And now he's a total model of calm,.

mindyh: growing up. It was this overwhelming sense of freedom, that keyed into all the other aspects of unschooling that were becoming clearer and clearer to me.

SandraDodd: I learned those tools and tricks as an adult, and for me they're mental. I recite what i should do and then I tell myself to do it and then I consciously do it.

LauraBowman: LOL, diana...i said WWLD once and had to explain to the kids the WWJD reference...they didn't get it

JennyC: I see Margaux transforming her wild self, in calm ways all the time!

SandraDodd: But Kirby l earned them when he was little, and he doesn't have to think
Cool, Mindy! (About Holly)

JennyC: It really is something that you have to do consciously!

PamSoroosh: So - we can "slip up" and regress to old negative patterns of thought and behavior. But our kids can't "regress" to old negative patterns and behaviors.

LauraBowman: i would like to hear more stories like mindy is sharing about those first pivotal moments when letting go...

SandraDodd: It's so interesting, Mindy and Pam and Diana, the things you've each seen about my kids and food that seemed to cause a little epiphany about unschooling, because I don't consider the food stuff to be unschooling-related, at our house.

SandraDodd: And if I were to say to Holly, "Okay, a homeschooling family is coming over, so do something inspiring," what would she do!?

Schuyler: Simon asked me not to fix carrot cake so much as he wanted it to be a special treat.

LauraBowman: what a stage to set sandra

Schuyler: I would never have turned down a special treat

JennyC: Sweetly offer half her cupcake?

Schuyler: Special was rare
And Simon got that But I thought special was inherent, I didn't get the connection between rare and special
I got it intellectually but not on the ground, practically

SandraDodd: But them just being the way they really are seems to have made a good impression on a lot of people.
Except some blogger, somewhere, who told people (or blogged) that she can't unschool because my kids are fat.

mindyh: Sandra, for me, Unschooling was an opening for me. We were very traditional in our parenting until we discovered unschooling. So, I let the edumacation stuff go, but the other things, what people now refer to as radical or whole life unschooling took a little longer. Again, it was that sense of freedom. Holly was "free" to get a *****bowl of ice cream. I had never even considered that possibility. The freedom thing has been huge for me ever since. And yeah, I don't think you could have planned a better A-HA moment for me, even if you scripted it .

PamSoroosh: That's so interesting Schuyler.

JennyC: Something that has helped Margaux be sweeter to neighbor kids, was to treat them as very special house guests

PamSoroosh: It seems such a part of human nature - so significant in so many areas of life.

Schuyler: If she couldn't unschool because your kids were fat I imagine there are lots of other things that come between her and her kids and decisions for them

SandraDodd: It helped me to be nicer to my own kids, to treat them as guests.


PamSoroosh: Not so much treat them AS guests - treat them at least as nicely as I would guests.

JennyC: Margaux doesn't always like the neighbor kids!

PamSoroosh: I want to repeat what Schuyler wrote earlier - it got a little lost in the fast pace and is so very important.....

RobynC: I'm worried that someone will read about the scarcity/desireability idea and come away thinking "well all I have to do is withhold fruits to make them valued"

PamSoroosh: "I thought special was inherent. I didn't get the connection between rare and special."

Schuyler: I've watched children "steal" from our candy bowls. Sneak food when we weren't visibly watching

Schuyler: That's marginal utility, isn't it?

PamSoroosh: LOL - that would work, Robyn.

hahamommy: no, Sandra, you were part of that whole "mommy healing" that is required for unschooling success...
THAT is what paved the way for the unschooling part to be easier...
more of my fears centered around bringing my childhood garbage into my children's reality... you modeling how *not* to do that really helped

Schuyler: Utility is inherent, marginal is rare .

PamSoroosh: But, of course, it would also mean you were withholding fruits, so they wouldn't be eating them. They'd VALUE them highly, but not have many.

PamSoroosh: I'd use the word "scarce" - rare is too extreme.

JennyC: the rare things tend to circulate around here, naturally

RobynC: It wouldn't be the first illogical logic used in parenting..

Schuyler: Scarce then

Zamozo: withholding vegetables wouldn't make them more valuable to my 11 yo

SandraDodd: Here's a recent photo of my "fat" daughter, btw. She took it by the light of the stove hood, with the other kitchen lights turned off.

(photo is a link)

JennyC: we eat them until we are tired of them and then we don't for a long time, and getting that item again feels special the next time

PamSoroosh: I mean - doesn't have to be that rare to feel scarce.

Schuyler: Scarce doesn't have to make it good

hahamommy: eating guacamole, happily by myself, after offering it to hayden convinced him that maybe he should give it a chance... he did and he loves it!

Schuyler: It has to have inherent utility to have marginal utility operate on it

Zamozo: ah, right

RobynC: I love people's stories about "what they did that time when...." I have these images in my mind and can recall them when I need guidance. Pam did that, Sandra said this, Valerie did this....

LauraBowman: i had an a-ha moment around ice cream too, a restaurant with ren and rue and my kids wanting ice cream and my wanting them to eat "lunch" was a moment when i had a chance to look really closely at the "why" of it because I had observers

JennyC: We had a similar quac moment the other day Diana

PamSoroosh: Right - it has to be something people like, then if you restrict it, the value of having just one more goes really high.

RobynC: Observers! Yes - my child is watching me, what do I want her to hear or see.

hahamommy: always learning, those observers!! careful!

RobynC: Also what if Sandra were standing over there? What would I want her to see?

Schuyler: When I was thinking about letting go of food limitations, and I can remember David and my discussions about it very clearly, there was a woman on unschoolingdiscussion who was letting her son eat all the ice cream he wanted.
It was a big thing.
The freezer was separate from the house and she had to walk from the house to the outbuilding with the freezer and get ice cream
and he ate bowl after bowl
But it tapered off It tapered off quickly

hahamommy: Inviting unschoolers to my house (in my head) really helped me too!

LauraBowman: the observers (in my mind, in that moment) were Ren and Rue!!

JennyC: I like stopping at the grocery store in the middle of summer in the middle of the day, just to buy a pack of ice cream bars for all of us!

Schuyler: that was the story that held me rapt

Zamozo: my kids seem to labor over allowing themselves the things I used to limit -- 5 years into no parental limiting. Sometimes it feels that my earlier limiting created a sense of insecurity on their part—a false trust in my knowledge and ability to keep .. them safe

JennyC: Yes, there can be hang ups in that

JillP: On hot summer evenings we have popsicles....we're too hot to eat much , and the popsicles are so cooling.

LauraBowman: zamozo, like they're still testing if it's real and dependable

SandraDodd: Once Marty kept on me about french fries, he wanted some, could I make him some, could I take him to get some, and I was trying to finish some project that needed to be printed or mailed, I forget what it was, but I couldn't. So when I could, an hour or two later I thought I should get MORE fries to make up for it

Zamozo: not sure if I'm being clear -- but I worry about if they'll ever relax over their food choices

SandraDodd: So I said "Let's go see whose fries are the best,

JennyC: side by side taste comparisons!

GailH: One of my big moments was the giant bowl of candy in Kelli Lovejoys house and just watching as the kids who had been limited on food just eat and eat it and the unschoolers maybe take one or two...I have these giant bowl of candy as you come in my house now and it continually reinforces it Zamozo: no, Laura, more like they are worried about choosing what they want vs. what they should

LauraBowman: i think the same think Z

reneecabatic: taste tests are the best tests!

hahamommy: Z: ah, stress about their stress, hoping it leads to less stress?

SandraDodd: and we got in the car and drove. We live right next to a major street with lots of drive through's, so we went to every drive-through and just ordered a small order of fries, and then on the the next, and before we ever got to Blakes' Lotaburger (which I KNOW is the best)

SandraDodd: He was too full and wanted to go home. I hadn't expected that, but I shouldn't have been surprised. I think he was 11 or so.

Schuyler: The kids who've snuck candy and chips from our house are so informative to me.

hahamommy: there is sucha thing as too many fries?!

SandraDodd: And I didn't intend to stuff him with fries until he begged me to stop, like when someone makes a kid smoke until he's sick GailH: It's funny that even when the kids know its okay to get it they are still sneaky about it

RobynC: Zamozo - I think I would try more of the buffet style eating at mealtimes, monkey platters at home and try never making any comment about food for a while.

JennyC: I know right? oh please more fries always! for me anyway

SandraDodd: (which I've seen done, and tried to do to my neighbor, and his dad backed us up)'

Zamozo: my older one seems to worry less, and his worries are centered more around money -- should he eat up something that will cost us money to replace -- if he isn't really hungry

LauraBowman: gail, we have the candy bowl on and off (scotty said it's hard to have it around for him)...but i noticed my kids lovin kelli's candy bowl and missing i've gotta do it again!!

reneecabatic: we have friends who come over and gorge on "sweets" and then tell me their Ma doesn't want them to eat that stuff because she loves them.

RobynC: If you can let go of your stress, meditate it away if possible, it will help.

SandraDodd: Jenny, I predict if you were to go to each fast food place and buy small fries and eat them, after the third or fourth stop you'd be done.

Schuyler: You just have to keep not having limitations

hahamommy: We have chocolate covered almonds, rolled in sugar and sea salt, in the cupboard from last week's trip to Trader Joe's..... They're rare, they're special, they're wonderful and all three of us make them last as long as we can... one or two a day, without pre planning, we just all savor them that much

Schuyler: You just have to keep food around that he likes and ask what he likes and not worry

JennyC: Zamozo, it all costs money to replaced! But you don't have to call it replacing, just, getting more because it was soo good!

RobynC: Oh yeah "I love you, so I can't let you have that candy". So what does that make Jayn and me - I don't love her?

Zamozo: it comes up for him, more often when we're out - away from home, eating at a restaurant or fast food

Schuyler: You screwed up, but you don't need to keep feeling bad about it.

JennyC: Oh I know Sandra, I was kidding! I love fries though, ever soooo much

Schuyler: It doesn't help them if you keep feeling bad about it

Zamozo: good point, Schuyler reneecabatic: exactly!!! Robyn---apparantly I don't love my kids enough to control their eating?!?!?

Schuyler: Say you're sorry and get them the food they want.

Zamozo: I don't talk about it with them at all -- except when they ask for my input, which my younger one does A LOT

Schuyler: Linnaea really likes soda .
She likes coke.
For Christmas last year I got a soda bottle that you put CO2 canisters in to fizz the water with

hahamommy: One little girl came to me and told me she can't have soda because she can't have corn syrup, I did her a little favor and told her she can find coca-cola made with SUGAR .:-D

RobynC: Z - What about if you gave him a special allowance to spend on special snacks? Show him maybe on paper that you really do have enough in the budget for this.

LauraBowman: potatoes, oil, and salt in any combonation is good good good

SandraDodd: I had a moment when Kirby was five and Marty was two and I was pregnant with Holly. We were in California to go to Disneyland and went out to dinner at someplace like Applebees, but quieter. Fern bar restaurant, anyway, about 1991. And we were with six other childless friends who'd known me a long time

Schuyler: When we ran out a couple of the soda chargers a couple of weeks ago I polled everybody for syrup flavors

Zamozo: She thinks a whole lot about whether or not she should eat various things Robyn - good ideas

Schuyler: We got apple and cinnamon and cherry

reneecabatic: XuMei asked me yesterday, "Why do people put food out and then tell their kids they can only have 2?"

hahamommy: Z, maybe you could even say, Ya know, it took me a long time to feel good about food and I'd really like to help you get there waaaaaaaay sooner than me, how can I help?

SandraDodd: no other kids there, and so we go into a fairly quiet restaurant, lots of adults at a big table talking boring stuff and I fear the kids will get antsy and embarrass me or cause me to miss the conversation

Schuyler: Apple was gone in 2 weeks
I got apple and pear a couple of days ago
Coke is staying for days

SandraDodd: So as soon as the waitress came I ordered pie. Apple pie, I think. for the kids

Schuyler: It's about choices, not limits

hahamommy: apple pie! full of all the good stuff!!

Schuyler: If I can give them choices they can get what they want, not be limited to what I think they need.

SandraDodd: And someone there said now they won't eat any of their meals, or I guess when I ordered their food someone said they weren't going to eat it because they'd already had dessert. But Keith and I knew they would, and I didn't argue.

JennyC: I've had apple pie for dinner before

SandraDodd: No sense arguing when two pie-kids start in on the chicken strips and potatoes and corn right after the pie.
I figured if they had something to do and weren't hungry, it was better for all of us.

hahamommy: apple pie (well, mine's the best of course) is a great meal on it's own... another thing left around with a fork in it at our house ;D

SandraDodd: But too many families in restaurants are using the restaurant as some kind of training ground.

Zamozo: He'll usually get what he wants after we reassure him it's okay. But... our income is variable (self employed) and he hears us talking about tight funds at times. I think he figures his food consumption is one of the few ways he can help??

Schuyler: T
That's sweet
And generous

Zamozo: He is very sweet and generous

Schuyler: And something to thank him for

Zamozo: yes

Schuyler: Include him in the conversation about money

JennyC: We don't go out to each much, so when we do, the kids order whatever they want, I don't care what or how much

SandraDodd: Does he go shopping with you?

katyj: Richard feels that way sometimes, so we talk about other ways to cut back on costs.

hahamommy: during those tight times, hayden will ask for fewer convenience foods ..;-) very convienient I must say ..;-)

Schuyler: Simon and Linnaea help us make choices about what to get

RobynC: We are strapped financially right now. The one thing we don't skimp on is the quality of food that we buy. However we are eating out/ordering in way less.

SandraDodd: Oh Katy!~ Hi!

katyj: Hi, first chat I have caught!

hahamommy: I make sure to make more of the bigger production meals, which cost less and mean a bit more

Zamozo: Shopping -- sometimes he does and it comes up then too -- I have to almost push him to let me get what he wants --

SandraDodd: Katy lives in Alamogordo really close to Keith's parents.

hahamommy: ...and she's got a pretty dang cool kid, herself ..;-) hugs to richard!

SandraDodd: Keith's mother, who STILL asks him how much he weighs and criticizes his food choices.

katyj: Really close! Small town! Thanks Diana! Hayden is pretty cool too.

JennyC: Yesterday I went shopping with only a tiny bit of money and opted to buy more muffins instead of cookies even though both were requested, but I came home and made cookies to save the cost of having to buy them

hahamommy: z, do you surprise her/them?

Zamozo: sometimes

RobynC: Yeah but she sounds like a cow, Sandra. James' ma is on a crusade to get him to lose weight too. She sends over diet books. Ah something to sell on Amazon.

Schuyler: Can you be more open about money with Zach?

hahamommy: Hayden has his own "drawer" of food he especially likes - mac & cheese, rice & beans, granola bars, roll-ups, etc... sometimes I'll buy something new and extravagant when i can and just stash it there until it's discovered!

Zamozo: we were visitng my dad and step-mom in TX recently and they had some yummy new foods so when we got home - I renewed my membership to Costco and bought those

katyj: I make cookies and freeze the dough in little balls to pop in the oven. Cheap and yummy.

Schuyler: Mac and cheese is a rare good here. Yumm

SandraDodd: Zamozo, what was it? There are some really good things at Costco.

hahamommy: Costco has the sugar coke!!!

RobynC: Coming full circle back to Costco.

SandraDodd: I feel I'm in the lap of luxury, with costco and Trader Joe's and Keller's farm store all around me.

RobynC: I love the fast food there - it is a great deal

JennyC: Sometimes, when we've bought pizza, the nice expensive pies that Chamille likes and she balks a little because of the price and she knows how much it costs, I tell her the person earning the money wants to do this for her because he loves her

hahamommy: Sandra, that IS tha lap of luxury!!

Zamozo: Kirkland Cranberry Macadamia Nut cereal and Nonni's Panetin Garlic Parmesan toast

reneecabatic: we're lactose intolerant so we make a comfort food here that is like macand cheese but cheese less called "pastine"--love it

katyj: I would love to have a Trader Joe's. Our natural food store is small and expensive.

RobynC: We make our own crispy crust pizzas using flour tortillas as the base.

hahamommy: gonna try that one Rene!

Zamozo: Panetini

JennyC: we do that too, or naan bread works too

GailH: Wish we had a Trader Joe..guess I'd need to move to Albuquerque though ..

JennyC: a lot of times I make the pizza dough in the bread machine, but it has to be prethought out because it takes a couple of hours

Zamozo: Schuyler - yes we could be more open about money with Zach -- he is a very good money miser -- Me, not so much.

katyj: I buy or make whole wheat pizza dough and fold it over fillings for home made calzones. Yummy!

RobynC: Also middle eastern style flatbread. There is no waiting a couple of hours when Jayn has a hankering!

hahamommy: I found a great little refrigerated local dough, I throw pizza together for the boys and bread sticks for me and viola! super mom credit for 1/3 the price ..;-)

reneecabatic: It's Italian and I may be saying/typing it wrong (and making it non-traditionally) but we still love it

Zamozo: At worse, I'll be embarrassed that I don't manage our money as well as he might theink I should

RobynC: I think a money chat would be a good idea, Sandra

hahamommy: Z, I worry about the money part of it too... then again, I think I'm doing him a great favor by being honest about the struggles, so he'll be farther along the road by 40 !!

katyj: Definetely a money chat. I often worry that I share too much about money worries with Richard

SandraDodd: ME? MONEY!? Keith would laugh and laugh Holly and Marty...

JennyC: We went from a stable income to a self employed income and it's been a difficult transition for all of us

SandraDodd: I accuse them of being agents of the bank of keith

hahamommy: LOL

reneecabatic: Zamozo--my 7 year olds are way better with money than I am

SandraDodd: They go shopping with me and they just say "No thanks" or "you don't need that, mom" or " Wait until it's on sale
They're NO FUN

hahamommy: Renee, your kids are better with money than me, too!!

Zamozo: We're talking about money a bit more lately as we're figuring out what college classes he wants to take -- what the school district will pay for and what not

katyj: Richard is so good with money. I am jealous of his money sense!

LauraBowman: we have always had money ups and downs...but right now we're recovering from a job loss back in november...things are looking up now

JennyC: Sandra, Chamille does that too!

SandraDodd: Or they will, as Holly did yesterday, turn down an offer of lunch and say, "Let's jsut go home and eat."
HOW RUDE they are.

RobynC: Or we could just do it now.....

GailH: As your kids are getting older, do you find that they are enjoying cooking some?

PamSoroosh: oh - costco - the big bags of dried blueberries are wonderful. They are so delicious. I'm eating some right now on my cheerios.

hahamommy: Never turn down a free meal, my grampa always said!

katyj: Richard does that, I want fast food and he reminds me of what is in the freezer!

Zamozo: That's the kind of stuff Zach does -- maybe it's healthy and not leftover from being controlled?

hahamommy: maybe it's a cash thing, too

Zamozo: What Holly does

SandraDodd: Keith gets those dried blueberries and keeps a snack mix of his own making in one of the Costco cashews containers. It has cashews, almonds, dried fruit and chocolate chips.

hahamommy: Hayden's directing more in the kitchen, exploring spices, partenering in the process, though not cooking alone yet

katyj: Richard loves cooking, watches the food network almost as much as Speed!

hahamommy: We've been watching Ace of Cakes together .. We want our own bakery!

SandraDodd: I think, Zamozo, that it's the result of a feeling of plenty, of richness of

GailH: Logan has recently started cooking a lot from watching Good Eats

SandraDodd: (what's the word?)

Zamozo: My kids don't like to cook much at all -- although Zoe and I made a fruit salad from her Cooking Trainer DS game the other day and she loved it! First time she's been willing to follow a recipe

katyj: He asked for a Magic Bullet last year, his grandpa gave him one. He loves to make things in it.

RobynC: Jayn is 9. She makes bacon and scrambled eggs. She makes grilled cheese sandwiches. She makes peas. She sometimes makes popcorn. She would probably use the microwave more if it were on a lower shelf. But that is not possible at this time.

hahamommy: I think it's "Plenty"

LauraBowman: i love alton brown, gail!!!

SandraDodd: Abundance!

JennyC: When people get all weird about food being good or bad or potentially not even food at all, I always think of the foodnetwork

PamSoroosh: None of my kids cooked - but Roya lives on her own now and is VERY into cooking. She shares recipes with me all the time.

hahamommy: oh you said that! yes!! ABUNDANCE ..

RobynC: Jayn also likes cooking show and Gordon (Beep) Ramsay

SandraDodd: Kirby didn't cook here much, but he does in Austin
Holly's starting to cook.

GailH: He did a Vlog of making pizza this week on OurSevenCents ..It's on YouTube

hahamommy: (gordon's my secret boyfriend!)

SandraDodd: Her specialty so far is variations on ramen and mac and cheese, but she does do some cool stuff.

katyj: Gordon is awesome, and Alton Brown.

JennyC: one has only to watch a few shows on the foodnetwork to see the wonders of food

RobynC: How many secret boyfriends can one momma have, Diana?

Zamozo: Thanks so much for all your help, everyone. I gotta run. I'll look forward to catching up with the transcript.

hahamommy: lots and lots and lots ..;-)

SandraDodd: NONE if she keeps telling people who her secret boyfriends are! THis transcript will take more than two hours to read. I've been here and haven't read it all.

GailH: Logan likes Alton because of all the science of food stuff he talks about

JennyC: We love Alton Brown!

hahamommy: 2 hours to read and a lifetime of enlightenment!

katyj: We watch unwrapped too. Richard loves learning the history of food.

RobynC: Oh there are some great shows about food science - like "Unwrapped".

JennyC: Sometimes Margaux says he talks too much, but I never think that

Schuyler: There is a great science cookbook that we have On Food and Cooking

SandraDodd: What was that video people were watching of a guy making pancakes in some little kitchen in NYC? A few months ago

Schuyler: Heston Blumenthal is a British cook that talks alot about the science of cooking

katyj: There was a video of a really famous cook in his tiny kitchen, maybe that was it?

Schuyler: I can find him on youtube

katyj: All expected his kitchen to be huge.

SandraDodd: OH! Another kind of freudian thing... "shoving away food"


JennyC: Our kitchen is tiny, I wonder if his is tinier

SandraDodd: No, it was like... macaroni and cheese pancakes?

That's Kenny Shopsin
I really like Kenny Shopsin

RobynC: Michael Pollan on Amazon

hahamommy: he's got secret boyfriend potential ..;-)

SandraDodd: What's that movie with Catherine Zeta-Jones being a cook, and her rival cook makes spaghetti for her niece? That was one cool scene.
She keeps wanting the kid to eat exotic food


that's the movie Chocolate

SandraDodd: But she wants spaghetti.
Some people don't seem to want to acknowledge that kids have different tastes.

katyj: I like Chocolat, woman starts chocolate store in tiny catholic town during lent.

JennyC: or, what I took from it, was that surely the really expensive and time consuming was better

SandraDodd: It has helped immensely here for us to say "Marty doesn't like spinach yet." It means don't even try to pressure or cajole him about spinach, but if he changes his mind, let him change his mind!

RobynC: No Reservations

SandraDodd: Yes. Rough story but that one part is a great scene.

JennyC: chamille discovered that she like broccolini, even though she doesn't like broccoli

katyj: Oh! Yet is a good thing. Richard has started really liking chile, didn't used to.

hahamommy: I've passed that along to my little cousin... the concept of using YET, especially when her baby's only 2! She can get used to saying it now

Schuyler: Kids have different food needs
Oh, I can get David, maybe, to chime in

katyj: Richard loves broccoli. Never heard of brocolini...

SandraDodd: The love of green chile comes along at some point to just about everyone who lives in New Mexico, and some who just pass through.

JennyC: broccolini is baby broccoli
it's milder and more tender

Schuyler: Kids need their food in denser energy packets, more starch more protein more fat
David says
They just need more calories per unit of food

JennyC: I LOVE green chile

RobynC: Gordon Ramsay on BBC America

SandraDodd: We have fifteen minutes. If anyone is shy or slow to type, get your questions or concerns in here.

Schuyler: I didn't LOVE green chile til after moving to the UK
Gordon Ramsey amuses me so much

SandraDodd: And there might be another more Australia-time-friendly food chat later in the weekend or next week, just so's ya know.

Schuyler: He is such an unpleasant man.

katyj: Gordon ramsay seems much nicer on the british version of his show.

JennyC: Is that a little like craving fresh cherries in the middle of winter while you are pregnant?

Schuyler: Really?
Maybe it's contextual
Brits are so good at saying fuck all the time
Gordon Ramsey doesn't stand out so much in his own culture

SandraDodd: Ali G seemed nicer in the U.K. than here too.

katyj: He yells and throws things more often on american version...

SandraDodd: And the little Britain guys too.
Some of that is funny when Brits do it and other Brits respond, but mixing Brits and an unsuspecting American audience isn't funny.

RobynC: I like the F word, because we see him at home with his kids, with friends, losing cooking contests and laughing about it. The really harsh, angry man is a bit of a put on for tv I suspect.

SandraDodd: (I don't know if that works for food shows too. )

Schuyler: Ali G. was really mean to Americans
I haven't been able to watch Borat yet

LauraBowman: my husband is a chef and he says chefs yelling is very real...he's been called ramsay in the past...oh man!!! but he could never really be like him

Schuyler: Lenny Henry was in a series called Chef

Guest10: Hello, I forgot it nearly over? ..

JennyC: nearly but not yet

Schuyler: Lots of yelling but not quite Gordon Ramsey
Ramsey is good for shock value

katyj: I saw Ramsay on TV signing autographs, he seemed nice. His publicist or something was being really rude telling him to hurry up and he told her to piss off, these people had been waiting for him!

LauraBowman: cool

JennyC: my kids love shock value, but it's not so shocking when you love it so much is it?

RobynC: He really does help people with his Kitchen NIghtmares show.

katyj: Love that show

Schuyler: He's in a bit of trouble with the media at the moment for having an affair

JennyC: Aaaa tabloids!

ShellinNZ: I can't see any of what has been said already

Schuyler: No, he admited it

RobynC: Oh NO. His wife is so gorgeous too. Diana, what have you been up to?

Schuyler: not just tabloids

JennyC: our Mayor is in a bit of trouble for having an affair

SandraDodd: Holly is sitting across the table from me googling WhichWich, a sandwich shop she raved about after she visited Kirby last year. There's apparently one in Albuquerque now. Any of you know this place?

Schuyler: Is Wagamama in Albuquerque yet ?
It seems to be everywhere all at once.

SandraDodd: No. Is it a sandwich place?

JennyC: I've never heard of either

Schuyler: But I don't know WhichWich
It's an pan-Asian place

katyj: I live in such a small place, we never get any cool little restaurants.

JennyC: ShellinNZ, what were you looking for?

SandraDodd: Central this side of Yale (across from the university) is where Holly and I will be before long

Schuyler: Oh, I know where that is.

RobynC: Also "The Gospel of Food"Barry Glasner

SandraDodd: Gail and her family will be in Albuquerque in June to visit relatives. I'm really looking forward to getting to see them.

LauraBowman: i just want to say, again, real quick how much i appreciate all the input here today (and on sandra's site) has been so huge to learn all these things and begin the healing process in our family over food!! thank you!!!

SandraDodd: Good, Laura! It's always good to know when these things help.

LauraBowman: it seems like i'm always back at the beginning of this journey...but i'm getting there.

Schuyler: Is your family suffering or is it you, Laura?

JennyC: It's incredibly freeing to eat and enjoy food!

SandraDodd: Sometimes I worry that it's just causing people to spend time away from their kids, stuff like chats and me sending them more damned weblinks.

RobynC: Jayn is sleeping.

LauraBowman: no one is suffering anymore...but it used to be all of us.

JennyC: Both of my kids are sleeping too

katyj: The food issue has always been so huge with me. I am so glad that I found Sandra's site and unschooling so that Richard doesn't have the same issues with it.

Schuyler: I cooked a chicken and am now eating dinner during this chat

LauraBowman: LOL, it is always sooooo helpful!!!

SandraDodd: In July I get to go to Schuyler's house! And from there I want to go and eat Yorkshire pudding in a pub.

katyj: Richard just woke up, I am watching my friend's toddler, but she is sleeping.

JennyC: I was late to the chat because I was puting stuff in a slow cooker

RobynC: Oh I love my slow cooker!

Schuyler: Oh. A pub. I'm sure there still be some open by then
Apparently they are closing everywhere these days

katyj: I was late too, we were making scrambled eggs. Late breakfast.

JennyC: But that is a signature of England!

Schuyler: Our slow cooker is an oven

SandraDodd: That, a Learn Nothing Day chat, and going to a conference. And other than those things I'll just see whatever roadways and ironwork there is.
Oh. And I want to go to an appliance store.

Schuyler: David can make yorkshire pudding

SandraDodd: Well okay, but I want a reason to go to a pub, too, then

Schuyler: The first British appliance store I went to was in Belize

RobynC: What about a pub band?

JennyC: yorkshire pudding was my favorite food as a child

Schuyler: Maybe there is a pub where David's family came from in Norfolk They had an estate and all
They left it to the Quakers though

JennyC: My dad only made it every once in a while because it was time consuming to make

SandraDodd: A Quaker pub...

Schuyler: Oh, Jenny, suddenly I feel guilty because I haven't managed to figure out how to send sourdough starter to you
A Quaker pub, hmmm

JennyC: that's ok
I've been making regular bread

Schuyler: I'll figure it out, or bring it on the plane

JennyC: no hurries

katyj: My mom always had sourdough starter when I was a kid. I have never made sourdough bread though, maybe I should try...

JennyC: I wonder what a quaker pub would be like

Schuyler: Not so much beer

SandraDodd: Okay.... I'm going to put up the chat transcript later tonight or tomorrow, and I'm going to take Holly to WhichWich. She's already ready to go.

LauraBowman: well, kids waiting to use the 'puter...going to make lunch too...thanks so much for hosting this sandra and everyone for showing up and sharing!! can't wait to read the transcipt!!

Schuyler: Separate sections for men and women?

katyj: Thanks Sandra! I hope WhichWich is good.

JennyC: which sort of defeats the purpose of a pub

Schuyler: Both purposes
Have fun

SandraDodd: Feel free to stay in here and talk if you want to. And if you make a monkey platter, take it's picture and send it to me!

Monkey Platter Page
now with photos and new ideas!

Another food chat

Ideas and reassurance: