Sandra Dodd: Hiya, Marta!

Sandra Dodd: Transcript from last week's chat on Nature Intelligence:  https://chattranscripts.blogspot.com/2016...

ErinElizabeth: Hello!

Serah: hi it is sarahs son

Marta Venturini: Hi Sandra!

Sandra Dodd: Is Sarah okay?

Marta Venturini: And Erin and Serah's son. :)

Serah: yeah fine

Sandra Dodd: Okay. I thought you were coming to give us bad news. Spooked me.

Serah: no just filling while my mom is busy

Sandra Dodd: Interesting, about seat fillers. At the academy awards show, they want no empty seats in the audience, so if someone needs to get up, there are people dressed way up who are there just for the job of sitting in the spot until the person gets back.

Serah: whats the topic today ?

Sandra Dodd: Holly just was at a campout event that had three days (among other days) of white tantric meditation, where everyone was wearing white, and they were meditating in pairs (changed around each day), but because it involved pairs of people (a thousand people, but by twos), if someone needed the bathroom or to go get food, someone replaced them while they were gone.

Marta Venturini: Sandra, this list that you lifted from wikipedia regarding spiritual intelligence is so good!

Sandra Dodd: The topic is always up at the top, and in the e-mail that comes the week before

Sandra Dodd: spiritual intelligence

Sandra Dodd: I shouldn't say "always" anymore. :-)

Serah: nice

Sandra Dodd: I agree, Marta. I was impressed by that list and thought maybe we could go through it as the agenda/schedule today. :-)

Serah: the medition sounds so cool

Marta Venturini: Good idea!

Serah: sounds like a nice calm relaxing thing to do

Serah: my son left i am back :)

ErinElizabeth: Looking at that list, it looks like that is what Al Turtle's whole website is aimed at helping us develop in the interest of creating what he calls vintage love

Sandra Dodd: It also looks like emotional maturity, which might be what he means by vintage love? (I'm guessing)

ErinElizabeth: I'd guess that vintage love can't be achieved without emotional maturity

Serah: interesting list up top

Sandra Dodd: I think the reason Howard Gardner didn't include this, and when it was proposed to him he didn't say "good idea," is that these things are immeasurable kinds of things, probably/maybe. :-)

Sandra Dodd: When I was a teen and studying psychology, it wasn't respected At ALL.

ErinElizabeth: maybe also unlike the other intelligences where people have their own innate potental emotional maturity is something that everyone is supposed to be able to achieve?

Sandra Dodd: Older professors (to be old in the 1970's meant being born 1910ish) objected to it being a science, or even a social science, for purposes of credits for degrees.

Sandra Dodd: I don't think so, Erin. I was trying to justify why this list might sound like marriage-counselling material.

Sandra Dodd: it's proposed as an intelligence that should be considered alongside Gardner's whole set, but the difference between this and those is the nebulous topic. :-)

Sandra Dodd: Knowing others, knowing oneself---those can't be easily measured, either, but they're acknowledged as useful and real.

Tinlizzy: Sorry I'm late we were baking cookies and I didn't realize the time

Sandra Dodd: Even if it can't be measured, it's possible to know that one person has a lot of self-knowledge and doesn't get flustered talking about it, while another person is awkwardly clueless about similar questions. :-)

Sandra Dodd: The list isn't going to match what we've been doing because it's a side issue.

Sandra Dodd: So the first item on the author's list IS "intrapersonal intelligence."

Sandra Dodd: So if we stick it on the graph that's come up a few times, it should overlap that one, at least.

Sandra Dodd: TIME OUT. I have a story to tell about a chat a couple of months ago. Was anyone who's here now also here when we discussed the advantage of having a witness (real or imagined)?

Marta Venturini: I think I was here, yes.

Sandra Dodd: Serah? I think you were.

Serah: not sure... jog my memory pls!

Sandra Dodd: There was a story—Holly said her friend had told her a story about a holy man who told two students to go and kill a chicken, where no one could witness it.

Sandra Dodd: Later Holly asked what book the story had been in. Her friend said she read it in a book.

Marta Venturini: I remember that story.

Serah: oh yes! i remember

Sandra Dodd: The book was Be Here Now. I told Holly I had that book. So the next time she was in town, I brought the book and set it in front of her. It's my third copy. I gave the first two away. Now I've given that to Holly.

Sandra Dodd: But...

Sandra Dodd: She sat down and opened it.

Sandra Dodd: She opened it to this page:

Sandra Dodd: She said kind of quiet and spooky: "Mom..." and she started reading aloud:

Sandra Dodd: /WitnessChicken

Serah: too cool!

Serah: it's like she was meant to open THAT book.

Tinlizzy: The advantage is that a witness changes our behavior

Tinlizzy: ?

Sandra Dodd: It makes you more thoughtful and aware.

Sandra Dodd: Self-conscious in a goo way, Tinlizzy.

Sandra Dodd: https://chattranscripts.blogspot.com/2016/04/having-witness-april-15.html if you want to read more about that later.

Sandra Dodd: She opened right to that page.

Robin B.: Doo-doo-doo-doo... :-)

Marta Venturini: Robin! :)

Sandra Dodd: Perhaps people who are good at whatever "spiritual intelligence" turns out to be find it easy to unschool.

Sandra Dodd: -=-Spontaneity: Living in and being responsive to the moment.-=-

Serah: "There is no such thing as coincidence"

Robin B.: Twilight Zone reference, in case folks wondered.

Marta Venturini: :)

Robin B.: "There is no such thing as coincidence" - really?

Serah: its from Matrix - i think

Robin B.: Ah, well, that explains it. ;-)

Sandra Dodd: I think that when people are trying to learn to live in and be responsive to the moment, it can (has, does) help them (to help them accept things) to think that it's the will of God, or that there are no coincidences.

Sandra Dodd: There's no big difference between "no coincidence" and "will of God" or "plan of the universe" or whatever pat soothing label someone puts on things like... that Holly opened the book to that very page. :-)

Sandra Dodd: But another way to see it is that a hundred things could happen—a thousand things could happen—and we can't control it, so being calmly accepting (or joyfully welcoming) whatever does happen is probably healthier than turning all red-faced and pissed off that it wasn't the ONE thing you WANTED to have happen.

ErinElizabeth: for me, being "in the moment" is more an acknowledgment that I don't control anything but my own actions.

ErinElizabeth: that also includes a refusal on my part to put my actions in the control of any god or planned universe

Sandra Dodd: Finding a calm way to accept it, no matter what story one tells herself, is part of spiritual intelligence, according to this list. :-)

Sandra Dodd: And it's a GREAT skill to have when small children are factored in.

Sandra Dodd: And (I'm finding) even when they're grown.

Marta Venturini: :)

Sandra Dodd: -=-Being vision- and value-led: Acting from principles and deep beliefs, and living accordingly.-=-

ErinElizabeth: Pretty helpful with spouses too, I think

Sandra Dodd: Principles. Understanding. That's big in the middle of unschooling (at least on my site and Joyce's... I could name a few where they're not sure what principles are)

Sandra Dodd: Decisions made on beliefs.

Sandra Dodd: That works with or without a religious framework.

Sandra Dodd: Knowing what you want your home to "look like" (not physically, but how you want it to feel) helps move toward "getting warmer."

Marta Venturini: I have no religious framework whatsoever right now (I come from a Catholic family) and I've grown more, spiritually and emotionally and morally, than ever before.

Sandra Dodd: Without a vision, without values, people just stumble around or follow the loudest, pushiest friend

Sandra Dodd: There's no reason not to, without principles to trump the friend's crazy ideas. :-)

ErinElizabeth: understanding this made a really big difference in how comfortable I felt with unschooling. Before I got it I kept telling other people they were "doing it wrong" but now I don't have to be that "loud pushy friend" to be comfortable in my own beliefs and actions

Sandra Dodd: Many years ago in the first online homeschooling forum (user group), over half were Christian homeschoolers.

Sandra Dodd: One of them asked me one day how, without fear (of God, of hell, I don't remember the exact wording) my kids would ever be good.

Sandra Dodd: It was really a deep question, but she was asking it from the shallow waters. :-)

Sandra Dodd: My kids will never be able to decide to change religions.

Sandra Dodd: Well they COULD. But what I mean is that someone who goes to a particular church, and behaves this way or that BECAUSE of the church, and the people there, and fear of God, if he decides to leave that church, then all the fear stays back there. All the reasons to be good stay back there and he's "free"

Sandra Dodd: I suppose irresponsible unschoolers sometimes start there, with their little kids, telling them they can do whatever they want to.

Sandra Dodd: The kids will figure out that they can't. But at least they're figuring it out in little-kid scenarios.

Sandra Dodd: If it's someone with some money and a car and a job who goes "free" that's dangerous!

Sandra Dodd: ErinElizabeth, there are some people (not many, I hope) who change their educational approach every six months or so, to impress some new friend.

Sandra Dodd: We had a family come through our unschooling group twice, each time, born-again unschoolers, absoLUTELY sure this is IT, the only way, the best way.

Sandra Dodd: And before it had been another homeschool method, or another charter school, and then back out to something else after six months. Those kids were never in school for a full year, though they were in school several times.

ErinElizabeth: I used to be that way with my diet, I don't miss being a know it all

Marta Venturini: (be right back, Conchinha needs me)

Sandra Dodd: Her principles seemed to be "always look for something better" and "impress your new friends." Sandra Dodd: /rules (for principles)

Sandra Dodd: This is HUGELY in the center of unschooling as I've lived and presented it:

Sandra Dodd: -=-Holism: Seeing larger patterns, relationships, and connections; having a sense of belonging.-=-

Sandra Dodd: Connections. :-) Being already IN the world, not preparing the enter the real world.

Sandra Dodd: /connections

Sandra Dodd: -=-Compassion: Having the quality of "feeling-with" and deep empathy.-=-

Sandra Dodd: Paying direct attention to a child without filters is a gateway to that. :-)

Sandra Dodd: Really caring what a baby wants, not just seeing it as a grub that can be scheduled and trained, but seeing an infant as a person who is expressing himself as clearly as he can, and who is learning from everything around him... if that can be continued for years, that's compassion.

ErinElizabeth: I'm having a hard time with this one currently

Sandra Dodd: /babies/

ErinElizabeth: I'm very out of touch with my own feelings of anger and it makes it really hard for me to be with my little boys in theirs

Sandra Dodd: /babies/infants

Sandra Dodd: Don't "be with them in their anger" if that's the phrase you're thinking of.

Sandra Dodd: Help them live without having things to be angry about. Promote peace. Be a cool, cheery cruise director.

ErinElizabeth: I mean it's hard for me to be physically around an angry person

Sandra Dodd: arrange for less anger to be around you.

Sandra Dodd: What they're angry about—avoid those factors.

Sandra Dodd: The phrasing you used sounds like a book or philosophy or someone else's words. It's not the direct being I'm talking about.

Sandra Dodd: /being has a few hundred ideas, if you follow links from there.

ErinElizabeth: it is someone elses words, thanks for the reminder :)

Sandra Dodd: -=-Celebration of diversity: Valuing other people for their differences, not despite them.-=-

Sandra Dodd: /wonder

Sandra Dodd: /joy

Sandra Dodd: /abundance

Sandra Dodd: Seeing the richness of the world around and appreciating it.

Sandra Dodd: -=-Field independence: Standing against the crowd and having one's own convictions.-=-

Robin B.: When I have felt like that ErinElizabeth I realized I was focusing on myself, not what my daughter needed. What I needed to be was the calm and strong rock at times or the cool, cheery cruise director, as Sandra put it. I wish I'd understood that earlier than I did. :-) It helped immensely to refocus away from what I was feeling.

Sandra Dodd: In the list, I'm not sure why she has this separate from -=-Being vision- and value-led: Acting from principles and deep beliefs, and living accordingly.-=-

ErinElizabeth: I'd guess because it's possible to adopt the values of those around you and live accordingly

Sandra Dodd: Robin, I see it as part of being the child's partner (to the item above, about compassion)—helping her be comfortable.

Robin B.: Yes.

Sandra Dodd: "Field independence" is interesting. Maybe I should get the book and see what she sees as the difference there. I've only looked at the list.

Sandra Dodd: There have been some unschooling "tribes" that ended up wandering off together away from good unschooling.

Sandra Dodd: Because "tribe" was more important than unschooling, when one of the stronger personalities starts compromising, the others did too

Sandra Dodd: But again, as with my school-hopping friend, their principles were NOT anchored in learning and peace.

Sandra Dodd: -=-Humility: Having the sense of being a player in a larger drama, of one's true place in the world.-=-

Sandra Dodd: I'm big on humility as a virtue.

Sandra Dodd: People can't learn anything if they think they know more than everyone else around them.

Sandra Dodd: They can't even SEE what others are doing if they're looking at them through that filter.

Marta Venturini: Hey ladies, I'm really really sorry but I need to go. Conchinha isn't feeling well and Bruno isn't home (he took my aunt to the doctor because she hasn't been doing well lately...).

Marta Venturini: Sandra, thank you so much for hosting these chats!

Sandra Dodd: Okay, Marta. Thanks.

Sandra Dodd: /humility

Marta Venturini: The chats have been so important to me! At the same time, I'm glad you're taking some time off. I hope you manage to rest and do other interesting and fun things! Bye everyone!

ErinElizabeth: I can't remember who said it but I found comparing a protester boycotting nestle (or whatever) to some ant but as an elephant stamping on their child's preferences/interests very helpful

Sandra Dodd: years back when I would recommend to one mom or another, in discussions, that it might help to advise the child to have humility, in one situation or another (involving teams, or karate teachers, or whatever), before I had a page to send them to :-), two different times a mom said "I don't WANT my child to be humble."

ErinElizabeth: I'm tiny in the sense of the world but I'm huge in my family

Sandra Dodd: And one said "I don't want my child to be humiliated."

Sandra Dodd: So really, they hadn't thought about the idea at all.

Sandra Dodd: And it's not unusual for people (Americans especially) not to even know the term, seriously. It's a problem. :-)

ErinElizabeth: why is having humility a good thing but to be humiliated bad?

Sandra Dodd: Sarah Dickinson, in Northern Ireland, wrote that about Nestle and the elephant.

Sandra Dodd: "You stamping your foot is like a butterfly to Nestlé but like an elephant to your children, so don't squish them."

Serah: i think humility is something you do to yourself and being humiliated is done by someone to you

Sandra Dodd: Exactly. What Serah said.

Sandra Dodd: "humiliation" is crushing.

Sandra Dodd: Humility is personal power.

Sandra Dodd: This is a great one for unschooling and parenting!!

Sandra Dodd: -=-Tendency to ask fundamental "Why?" questions: Needing to understand things and get to the bottom of them.-=-

Sandra Dodd: "Why" is the key to knowledge and thought, to peace, to reason.

Sandra Dodd: /why

Sandra Dodd: not much there, but lots in my head. :-)

Sandra Dodd: /5ws (Notes from a talk I did on "the five W's", and my point was the most important one is "why?")

Sandra Dodd: This one might be related to logical/mathematicalinte​lligences intelligence:

Sandra Dodd: -=-Ability to reframe: Standing back from a situation or problem and seeing the bigger picture or wider context.-=-

Sandra Dodd: Analysis. The ability to see dispassionately

Sandra Dodd: Many parents take their own child's side regardless of other factors, and defend him even when he's has been inexcuseable, somehow.

Sandra Dodd: It's possible to see the problem and still be compassionate.

ErinElizabeth: it's interesting that you relate that to logical/analytical thinking, that's an area my husband is very strong in, EXCEPT with regards to relationships

Sandra Dodd: Children can't learn to see themselves in the context of the world if the parents' view is skewed

Sandra Dodd: If the parent has no objective vision, the child will be confused, and less secure. But IF all of this constitutes a separate intelligence (if), then it should be something that some people can do excellently well and some can't do much at all.

Sandra Dodd: So appreciate it if you have it, and learn to trust second opinions if you don't, I guess. :-)

Sandra Dodd: Some people can play chess and some can play people. :-)

Sandra Dodd: Some can't do either.

Sandra Dodd: Some do both.

Sandra Dodd: Unschoolers get better at this. It's also related to humility, I think.

Sandra Dodd: -=-Positive use of adversity: Learning and growing from mistakes, setbacks, and suffering.-=-

Sandra Dodd: "I can do better next time."

Sandra Dodd: If something goes wrong—car breaks down, electric bill isn't paid, yard flooded... What can be changed to help prevent it in the future? One needs the ability to calmly look back and see what (if anything) they contributed to the failure.

Robin B.: I need to go, as well. Weekly appointments have been changed to Thursdays. Thanks for the chat, Sandra. I know I was in and out (work stuff). Bye all.

Sandra Dodd: I COULD say "Fords always break down; the power company SUCKS; my yard is stupid."

ErinElizabeth: but none of those will help make tomorrow easier

Sandra Dodd: But it's better to think "I should check the oil more often; paying the bill early is better than waiting til the last minute; I need to clear that drain so the water can flow out.

Sandra Dodd: The last one on that list is interesting in context. :-)

Sandra Dodd: -=-Sense of vocation: Feeling called upon to serve, to give something back.-=-

Sandra Dodd: So the author of the list suggests that part of "spiritual intelligence" is the feeling that one should serve others.

Sandra Dodd: Again, related to humility.

Sandra Dodd: /service

Sandra Dodd: That didn't come up until I was writing The Big Book of Unschooling, I think, and when people started writing to me, after having read that, I started a page to collect their responses.

Sandra Dodd: Sarah Dickinson, who wrote about the Nestle boycott, was the first to respond to that. I've been to her house. Nice, huh?

Sandra Dodd: People have asked me why I help unschoolers, even after my kids are grown.

ErinElizabeth: you have touched many lives and your writings have helped make a lot of homes nicer places to visit :)

Sandra Dodd: It has been useful to so many families that I don't know why I would stop.

Sandra Dodd: Thanks, ErinElizabeth.

Sandra Dodd: Good point, if I'm going to visit. Kind of selfish, if you put it that way. "Enlightened self-interest," sounds like, nearly. :-)

Sandra Dodd: But it is enlightened self-interest, to make the world better.

Sandra Dodd: But sometimes I wonder what's enough.

Sandra Dodd: Just Add Light and Stir might be enough.

Sandra Dodd: My website might be enough.

ErinElizabeth: that's been one of my goals as a parent

ErinElizabeth: while my boys are young I'm making the world a better place by helping them be the best they can be

ErinElizabeth: and by making my house a better place

Serah: you know internally whats enough

Sandra Dodd: Lately the chat seems like too much, so this is going to be the last one for a while. We might have a different chatroom; I might not renew this one. It's $130 a year, and with the chats so small, it might not be worth the rent.

Serah: if it starts feeling like a "have to" instead of a "choose to" then stop. Serah: I agree with Marta on this one. I love the chats, but also am happy that you are taking the summer off and to do other exciting things.

Sandra Dodd: In late October, after I'm back from travels and Kirby's married, I'll think again.

Sandra Dodd: One thing that makes me think that spiritual intelligence IS a thing is that it seems to run in families.

Sandra Dodd: What can be tracked easily is religious leaders. They tend (in religions where they can reproduce) to produce others with that ability or bent.

Sandra Dodd: And sometimes a family will have several priests or nuns, in just a few generations, so even though they can't have children, their genetics seem to lean toward that intellectual or moral side.

Serah: yes, that is interesting indeed.

Sandra Dodd: There are other things than religion that I see it in, too. Scout leaders.

Serah: I know many families like that

Sandra Dodd: Families willing to help other families (or other families' children) like boy scouts, girl guides, 4-H.

Sandra Dodd: "A tradition of service," people will say.

Sandra Dodd: "Our family has a tradition of service." But perhaps, genetically, they have whatever "spiritual intelligence" will turn out to be, when people look at it for a few more decades, at the same time they're learning more about biochemistry and learning and genetics.

ErinElizabeth: could that also be doing what you're expected to though? Instead of showing high emotional intelligence, doing what everyone expects you to do could look the same without the internal motivation

Sandra Dodd: In India, the Brahmins were bred to continue to be religious leaders.

Sandra Dodd: That's the nature vs. nurture question. It probably takes some of both.

Sandra Dodd: Someone from a family of doctors (because there ARE families of doctors) might do it from pressure, but if he didn't have the natural aptitude, he might be a crap doctor. :-)

Sandra Dodd: It might look the same, but it won't BE the same.

Sandra Dodd: Please subscribe to this:

Sandra Dodd: https://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd: It will give you things to read that you might not have found otherwise.

Sandra Dodd: Sometimes there are two or three in a month. Sometimes some time passes.

Sandra Dodd: There are three posts saved up, each having a page that needs a bit of work before it's launched. :-)