Margaret

We are at a crossroads and not sure which way to go here.

A little history: My 11yo has been in a private school since
kindergarten, has always had trouble dealing with homework and
worksheets and being told what to do. I think that's understandable.
We have offered him homeschooling/unschooling in the past but he has
been resistant to leave his school because of his friends. He blames
a lot of his problems on his private school and has been campaigning
to be allowed to attend public school. He doesn't take responsibility
for his role in his trouble (giving up at the first sign of
difficulty, etc.) We believe that public school will be at best a
waste of time, at worst a meat grinder which will grind him up and
spit him out in little pieces (pardon the disgusting analogy). (Of
course we would pull him from public school if any hint if the meat
grinder scenario became apparent.)

He was SO upset last night about doing homework. He says he doesn't
want to do ANYTHING, he just wants to sleep and read all the time and
doesn't want to be pushed into anything. He wants to spend his days
in the library. Frankly, that sounds FANTASTIC to me, I have no
problem with it. But he is still resistant to leaving school all
together. He actually said he's scared of not going to school now
because he'll end up flipping burgers some day. I just don't think
it's right for an 11yo of his intelligence to be worrying about that
right now.....

We told him that he can either stay in school and do what's expected,
in which case he can try public school in the fall, or he can leave
school now and commit to a year of unstructured learning, after which
he can return to school if he wants. I'm hoping that he will make an
active decision, but I'm worried that he is going to just let others
make the decision for him, which seems so disempowering......

I guess I'm looking for feedback here. Has anyone else dealt with a
kid who is miserable in school, but resistant to leaving school? Am I
dealing with Stockholm Syndrome here? (where kidnapped people begin
to sympathize with their captors)

I really appreciate any feedback, I'm having a hard time here, I want
to do right by my incredible smart wonderful boy!

Thanks--Margaret

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 23, 2006, at 8:27 AM, Margaret wrote:

> But he is still resistant to leaving school all
> together. He actually said he's scared of not going to school now
> because he'll end up flipping burgers some day. I just don't think
> it's right for an 11yo of his intelligence to be worrying about that
> right now.....


http://sandradodd.com/teens

There are stories there that might help him.
You might also get a copy of The Teenage Liberation Handbook to read
yourself or read good parts to him, or leave out where he might find
it. It doesn't need to be read front to back to be helpful.

-=-We told him that he can either stay in school and do what's expected,
in which case he can try public school in the fall, or he can leave
school now and commit to a year of unstructured learning, after which
he can return to school if he wants-=-

That sounds altogether harsh.
Why should he decide NOW what he has to do next fall? If he leaves
school, why should he have to commit to a year?
You're scaring him unnecessarily.

-=-I'm hoping that he will make an
active decision, but I'm worried that he is going to just let others
make the decision for him, which seems so disempowering......
-=-

But it seems "an active choice" means letting YOU make the decision
for him, which seems so disempowering.

http://sandradodd.com/choice

-=-I guess I'm looking for feedback here. Has anyone else dealt with a
kid who is miserable in school, but resistant to leaving school? Am I
dealing with Stockholm Syndrome here? (where kidnapped people begin
to sympathize with their captors)-=-

Lots of people have.
Give him a gentle, honest, OPEN choice.

http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice

If he knows that he could come home tomorrow, school will be better
for him. In the meantime, you would do well to read more about
unschooling in general. The links above lead to lots of other links.
http://sandradodd.com/help
that does too

Sandra

Betsy Hill

** We told him that he can either stay in school and do what's expected,
in which case he can try public school in the fall, or he can leave
school now and commit to a year of unstructured learning, after which
he can return to school if he wants.**

Oh. I wouldn't ask for a full year commitment for *either* public
school *or* for being at home.

I'd be inclined to take an approach like this --

"Yes, I think your private school gives too much homework. I don't
think this is a good way for you to learn. (optional: I believe you can
learn a lot going places with me and watching TV and reading and having
fun.) I encourage you to take a vacation from school, starting now.
Yes, if you want to try public school in September, you can try that."

And then I hope he takes your offer to be on vacation now, and I hope he
will chose to extend it indefinitely. After the whole decompression
period of crashing on the couch, if he finds engrossing things to do and
people to do these things with, he will be more likely to chose to stay
home.

Do discuss your thoughts about public school with him, but save it for a
few months from now when he's under less stress.

Oh, and maybe go to the unschooling conference with him if you are
anywhere within traveling distance of New Mexico. Otherwise see if you
can meet some fascinating and accomplished unschoolers nearer to home.
(Let them impress him with their knowledge and competence. It'll scare
the burger-flipping bogeyman away!0)

Betsy

Robyn Coburn

<<<< We told him that he can either stay in school and do what's expected,
in which case he can try public school in the fall, or he can leave
school now and commit to a year of unstructured learning, after which
he can return to school if he wants. I'm hoping that he will make an
active decision, but I'm worried that he is going to just let others
make the decision for him, which seems so disempowering......>>>>

Why can't he go to public school at once? Maybe what is left of the year
(after Spring break) will enough to show him that public school is not what
he wants (or maybe it will be :/ ) but there is summer to look forward to so
very soon.

Maybe that way this coming summer vacation will last "forever" and this idea
of a new thing, a new place that he evidently expects might solve his
problems, will not be tainting what should be a wonderful time of relaxation
over summer.

BTW one year (or any arbitrary time frame) of any kind of "learning" if it
has been constructed as a "commitment" that he is making to you could be a
barrier to actually getting to Unschooling with joy.

Most children who have been in school need to decompress ("Deschool" as it
is called) for (approximately) one month per year of school attendance
before the *child* starts to show any kind of lively interest in anything
that looks remotely like learning to an adult.

I think that you would be better removing any of the time pressures and
living in the present moment with him. What about just quietly fulfilling
the legal obligations for home schooling in your state (if possible) so that
you are then free to ask him each day if he wants to go to school "today".

I wonder if this "do what's expected" dictum is feeling like an ultimatum or
even abandonment to him. How could you support him being in a school where
he has his friends, but not enforce or support the "do what's expected"
part? (I don't have an answer to this question, I'm putting out there as an
thinking tool).

One of the reasons to home school, let alone Unschool, is to avoid having to
answer to some one else's idea of what is "expected".

As for answering his fears for the future, you might get him Life Learning
magazine where Peter Kowalke publishes a column about the adult successes
(and challenges but they seem good) of formerly Unschooled kids or the book
"The Teenage Liberation Handbook". For a glimpse of his possible future you
could all come to the Conference in September:
(www.liveandlearnconference.org see Sandra's site for some links to photos
from last year)

Robyn L. Coburn





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Robyn Coburn

<<< We believe that public school will be at best a
waste of time >>>>

Here is another concept/hidden assumption that bears investigating if
Unschooling is going to blossom.

Yes childhood is fleeting, but the idea that time spent by a child
investigating something they have asked for is "wasted", because the
activity turns out to be later rejected, is one that could be a barrier to
Unschooling.

It also implies a goal that public school will not be meeting. I'm guessing
that your goal is having ds home, so from your pov, no PS won't be meeting
it. However it might meet your son's goals, temporarily, and might be easier
to walk away from too!

I wanted to say that there are times Jayn is not going to stick with
something that she has started, but then I tried to think of an example and
couldn't. I don't know if she simply has stuck with everything, or if our
whole life and all our projects are so seamlessly "ongoing" that the concept
of wasted time is just not in existence.

Ah! I've remembered one.

Two years ago Jayn did a couple of sessions of ice skating. We stopped going
half way through the second session (despite the $$$) because Jayn stopped
liking it. I don't consider the time wasted - and we will probably go again
soon too.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Sandra Dodd

On Mar 23, 2006, at 10:19 AM, Robyn Coburn wrote:

>
> Why can't he go to public school at once?

She was writing about someone who's already in school.

-=-I wonder if this "do what's expected" dictum is feeling like an
ultimatum or
even abandonment to him. How could you support him being in a school
where
he has his friends, but not enforce or support the "do what's expected"
part? (I don't have an answer to this question, I'm putting out there
as an
thinking tool).-=-

Detaching emotionally can help.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
Seeing school as a small thing in a big world instead of as "a
child's job," and "preparing for the world" that can help too.

-=- For a glimpse of his possible future you
could all come to the Conference in September:
(www.liveandlearnconference.org see Sandra's site for some links to
photos
from last year)
-=-

http://sandradodd.com/abq

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Margaret

I am very very grateful for the responses so far. Lots to think
about. I am really torn up by this whole thing--I just don't know
what's the right thing to do, and maybe I CAN'T know, and that's hard
to accept when it's my boy we're talking about......

FYI, I have and continue to read Teenage Liberation Handbook--I love
it. I've given it to my son but I don't know how much he's read. It
might help him make a decision......

I have a couple of specific concerns. One is that he not feel like
he "failed" at school, because he is very down on himself in terms of
ability. He frequently says he "can't" do assignments which are
certainly within his capabilities, and he seems to really believe
that he "can't." But he stops before he even tries. I don't want to
end up with him even more down on himself than he is, by not
finishing the year.

I guess we are also worried about him being rewarded for rolling over
on some of the stuff that's been expected of him. It sounds silly,
given that some of what's been expected has been in his eyes a waste
of time. But I don't want him to feel like everything is so loosey-
goosey that he can just stop if he hits a challenge. You know?

I really appreciate the ideas so far and will share them with spouse
tonight. I appreciate any additional thoughts and links. (And I am
seriously considering taking my boy to New Mexico in September!)

Thanks,

Margaret



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 23, 2006, at 10:19 AM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
>
> >
> > Why can't he go to public school at once?
>
> She was writing about someone who's already in school.
>
> -=-I wonder if this "do what's expected" dictum is feeling like an
> ultimatum or
> even abandonment to him. How could you support him being in a
school
> where
> he has his friends, but not enforce or support the "do what's
expected"
> part? (I don't have an answer to this question, I'm putting out
there
> as an
> thinking tool).-=-
>
> Detaching emotionally can help.
> http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
> Seeing school as a small thing in a big world instead of as "a
> child's job," and "preparing for the world" that can help too.
>
> -=- For a glimpse of his possible future you
> could all come to the Conference in September:
> (www.liveandlearnconference.org see Sandra's site for some links
to
> photos
> from last year)
> -=-
>
> http://sandradodd.com/abq
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 23, 2006, at 2:19 PM, Margaret wrote:

> I really appreciate the ideas so far and will share them with spouse
> tonight. I appreciate any additional thoughts and links. (And I am
> seriously considering taking my boy to New Mexico in September!)

It would do more good to take your husband.

Check here to see if there are any unschoolers near you:
http://sandradodd.com/local
and there are some other conferences in May (I don't know where you
are):
http://sandradodd.com/conferences

-=-I guess we are also worried about him being rewarded for rolling over
on some of the stuff that's been expected of him.-=-

Yuck.
Bad attitude on your parts.
http://sandradodd.com/empowerment

Please don't buy into the "you have to finish what you start" stuff.

Won't you (by your own reasoning) by "rolling over" on getting him
through school, since you put him in?
If you started screaming or spanking, would you press yourself to
finish just because you had started, or wouldn't you pride yourself
on your ability to stop and change course as SOON as you saw it
wasn't good?

If someone starts a course of poison, it's better to throw the
remaining pills in the trash than to finish it all just because you
started.

Sandra

katherand2003

--- In [email protected], "Margaret" <mamamk@...>
wrote:
>
> I have a couple of specific concerns. One is that he not feel like
> he "failed" at school, because he is very down on himself in terms of
> ability. He frequently says he "can't" do assignments which are
> certainly within his capabilities, and he seems to really believe
> that he "can't." But he stops before he even tries. I don't want to
> end up with him even more down on himself than he is, by not
> finishing the year.

My husband is fond of saying "I can't want it" which is like saying
"I'm completely unmotivated."

Think of it this way: If someone were to decide for you that you must
learn a language you have absolutely no interest in, what would it
take to sustain you through fulfilling what is essentially someone
else's requirement of you? There is an assumption resting in
expectations especially when applied to children-- children can't
think for themselves and have to be told, cajoled, or shown what is
good for them. In your opinion, is that correct? Or are your
expectations about something or someone else?


> I don't want him to feel like everything is so loosey-
> goosey that he can just stop if he hits a challenge. You know?


Challenged to do what? It's not necessary to set up challenges or
obstacles. Sometimes challenges aren't scary... just about jumping
through hoops. You probably *will* learn *something* but you have a
greater chance of feeling failure or annoyance when being challenged.
Of course the intelligent thing is to avoid challenges when you're
already feeling challenged enough just attending school.

Nothing is a sure success. But connections have meaning and are a
better guarantee of success in many things, enjoyment, excitement,
learning, making friends, having interests, doing new things...
Unschooling is about providing an environment that encourages kids to
make connections about all they encounter throughout life. It will
only be loosey goosey if the parents don't provide an exciting
environment.

Kathe

Betsy Hill

Disclaimer: I'm using a lot of schooly language here, because we are
debating about a kid who is still in school.

** I have a couple of specific concerns. One is that he not feel like
he "failed" at school, because he is very down on himself in terms of
ability. He frequently says he "can't" do assignments which are
certainly within his capabilities, and he seems to really believe
that he "can't." But he stops before he even tries. I don't want to
end up with him even more down on himself than he is, by not
finishing the year.

I guess we are also worried about him being rewarded for rolling over
on some of the stuff that's been expected of him. It sounds silly,
given that some of what's been expected has been in his eyes a waste
of time. But I don't want him to feel like everything is so loosey-
goosey that he can just stop if he hits a challenge. You know?**


If you haven't been marinating in unschooling ideas long, then what I'm
gonna say may sound crazy to you.

I think each kid is a better judge of what he can and can't do than his
parent or his teacher is. That's maybe hard to believe if you have a
kid who hangs back cautiously from new experiences, as I do, but on some
level, at least, I do believe it.

It can be attractive to think that pushing and encouraging and noodging
can improve a kid's performance. (Eep!) But, I have seen kids come up
with wildly imaginative and varied ways to challenge themselves. The
tasks that they freely chose for themselves can be so creative that they
put "lesson plans" of a teacher to shame. It is really really hard to
flog ourselves thru a series of hoops or tasks set up by others. I
don't think learning has to be this hard. (And I'm a morning person, so
plowing through homework in the evening when my brain is fried is
especially hard.)

(I wish I could think of some of these creative challenge examples, but
my brain isn't retrieving them right now. I hope others will post some.)

A kid who struggles with a difficult task, say homework, doesn't
necessarily have a sense of elation or accomplishment when the paper
comes back with an "A" on it. (Even if we expect him to, or think we
would in his place.) And even if he did feel happy and satisfied for
many minutes, the satisfaction from completion or from his grade might
still not be strong enough to wipe out whatever self-talk and
self-perception was happening while struggling with the task. A kid
could carve a very long lasting memory (meme?) into his brain like "I'm
terrible at handwriting" or "Sentence diagramming stinks" or "I stink at
fractions". (Doing a math assignment without understanding the concept
being practiced strikes me as an especially bad idea.)

There's some good stuff written by Frank Smith that talks about the fact
that we can't really learn when we are confused or frightened. And I
think grades and competition can increase how frightened we feel.
Sometimes our self-esteem is on the line.

Betsy

Robyn Coburn

<<<< > Why can't he go to public school at once?

She was writing about someone who's already in school. >>>

Someone currently in private school who is agitating to go to public school.
He apparently believes it will make a difference to his happiness level. I'm
reading that his parents doubt it would be a better situation.

My intention was to promote the idea of not using some externally imposed
time line as a reason to delay giving a kid what they are asking for,
reportedly repeatedly.

Some private schools promote themselves as being more academically rigorous
than public schools. I wonder if he wants to go to a new place in order to
make a fresh start, without being pigeon holed in whatever role he currently
is in at his current school. Possibly the role of "gifted" or "brainy" is
becoming too pressured.

Unschooling frees us from needing to label our children, or to buy into the
limiting roles that schoolish thinking may impose on them.

However it is the deschooling process that lets these ideas be purged from
inside the child - and the adult. It is the deschooling process that will
allow our own innate knowledge of our authentic "capabilities", to use the
schoolish word that has been applied, to become restored.

The parents need to deschool their thinking too. It isn't just "we aren't in
school"; it is also "school isn't in us today". The ideas are insidious,
sometimes buried. I'm still deschooling myself and rediscovering my joys.
The sooner that process begins the sooner the joy can enter your lives.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Sandra Dodd

> > I don't want him to feel like everything is so loosey-
> > goosey that he can just stop if he hits a challenge. You know?


Everything IS that loosey-goosey.
People can quit jobs. They can (and do) walk away from leases, from
debts. It doesn't make them better people, but neither does it make
a person better to stay in a soul-sucking job, to pay too much for a
horrible apartment for too long, or to stay where they're not
appreciated and respected.

If you start looking at choices instead of "have to's" you will be
happy IMMEDIATELY. And wiser.

http://sandrdodd.com/haveto

What is the opposite of loosey-goosey? Important to consider.


Sandra

Sandra Dodd

> Disclaimer: I'm using a lot of schooly language here, because we are
> debating about a kid who is still in school.


Yes. And honestly, we should NOT be debating about a kid who is in
school.

Let's try to move back toward the principles of unschooling, as a
group, if we can.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 23, 2006, at 7:37 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:

> <<<< > Why can't he go to public school at once?
>
> She was writing about someone who's already in school. >>>
>
> Someone currently in private school who is agitating to go to
> public school.

========

Oh. You're right. Sorry. I didn't see the "public" part and
thought it was just why can't he go to school.

My fault.

But that said, that makes it even MORE off topic for an unschooling
list.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Drew & Tami

>>> What is the opposite of loosey-goosey? Important to consider.


Sandra <<<


Tighty..umm..whitey? Eeewww.

Tami, always willing to hazard a guess <G>!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jenstarc4

>
> Some private schools promote themselves as being more academically
rigorous
> than public schools. I wonder if he wants to go to a new place in
order to
> make a fresh start, without being pigeon holed in whatever role he
currently
> is in at his current school. Possibly the role of "gifted"
or "brainy" is
> becoming too pressured.
>

I just wanted to add to this train of thought here from a personal
note.

I did go to private school, and I did make the choice to go to
public school, even though my parents probably would've prefered me
to stay in private school.

Here's my thoughts...
You think kids in public school are mean spirited, you try going to
a private school. Private schools tend to attract the more wealthy
kids who come from homes that DO look down on others because of
their affluence. Even if you go to a nice private school that has a
good diverse population, which I have yet to see, you still have
that other set to deal with. Cliques are terrible in private
school, the amount of peers to choose from are limited even more
than a public school. If you get ostracized for something,
anything, it stays FOREVER simply because you can't get away from
those people. Everyone knows everyone, everyone's parents know
everyone else's parents. There is no escaping, no sanctuary.

Public schools have all kinds of kids from all kinds of
backgrounds. So, even if the schools themselves stink, it
inherently might be more interesting than what the private school
offers with all the uniforms and the uniformity of all the kids and
people there.

After I had a taste of the public school, I really wanted not part
in school at all, but that wasn't a choice for me. It could be for
the kid in question here though.

katherand2003

I never had academic pressure, challenge or anything in any school,
private or public. I went to private school but it was too expensive
for my parents so I mostly went to public school. What jenstar said
was my experience also. The silliest snobbery I've come in contact
with. Public school wasn't much better. There's plenty classism and
bigotry there too. I didn't want to be there. Looking back on it, I
can't imagine I would have liked homeschool either but I wasn't given
the choice. Never knew it existed until way after hs.

Kathe




--- In [email protected], "jenstarc4"
<jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Some private schools promote themselves as being more academically
> rigorous
> > than public schools. I wonder if he wants to go to a new place in
> order to
> > make a fresh start, without being pigeon holed in whatever role he
> currently
> > is in at his current school. Possibly the role of "gifted"
> or "brainy" is
> > becoming too pressured.
> >
>
> I just wanted to add to this train of thought here from a personal
> note.
>
> I did go to private school, and I did make the choice to go to
> public school, even though my parents probably would've prefered me
> to stay in private school.
>
> Here's my thoughts...
> You think kids in public school are mean spirited, you try going to
> a private school. Private schools tend to attract the more wealthy
> kids who come from homes that DO look down on others because of
> their affluence. Even if you go to a nice private school that has a
> good diverse population, which I have yet to see, you still have
> that other set to deal with. Cliques are terrible in private
> school, the amount of peers to choose from are limited even more
> than a public school. If you get ostracized for something,
> anything, it stays FOREVER simply because you can't get away from
> those people. Everyone knows everyone, everyone's parents know
> everyone else's parents. There is no escaping, no sanctuary.
>
> Public schools have all kinds of kids from all kinds of
> backgrounds. So, even if the schools themselves stink, it
> inherently might be more interesting than what the private school
> offers with all the uniforms and the uniformity of all the kids and
> people there.
>
> After I had a taste of the public school, I really wanted not part
> in school at all, but that wasn't a choice for me. It could be for
> the kid in question here though.
>

Margaret

I really appreciate the thought that you all have put into my dilemma.
Here's an update:

I decided that I agree with you about being harsh in all the
requirements we were imposing on my son. We don't see a purpose in
continued torment on ANY front!

So I told him that he can choose to stop attending the private school
now, and that if he does, he can still choose to go to public school
if he wants. Or he can go to public school now. Or he can not go back
to school at all. He was SO relieved, and even though he had been
feeling like he didn't want to go back, now that he has the choice,
he's thinking he WILL go back to the private school until the end of
the year. I told him he is free to change his mind if he wants.

He seems very grateful for having his wishes listened to and
respected. I continue to be skeptical and a bit frightened of public
middle school, but unless I find something actually dangerous, I'm
going to let him give it a try if it is what he really wants. We're
all going to go meet with the principal to talk over a few things next
month.

His school is closed for ten days during Passover, and during that
time I'm going to try to spend a lot of time with unschooling groups
in town so he can get a look at what that's really like.

I am realizing that part of my insecurity has to do with lack of faith
in my ability to provide a stimulating unschooling environment. There
are SOME things that he does enjoy at school, which I don't think I
would have even thought of to offer as an opportunity. For example, he
learned several poetry genres and had fun putting together various
forms of poetry. That being said, I don't think that lesson was worth
the angst and agony of the other subjects which he has suffered through…….

I am going to continue to try to leave as much in his hands as
possible while providing a loving and steady hand to hold if he wants
to. But oy, it ain't easy!!!!!!! (As you all know.)

Thank you thank you thank you for all your help and support on this. I
appreciate your bearing with me as we went "off-topic!"

Margaret

Pamela Sorooshian

On Mar 26, 2006, at 7:48 PM, Margaret wrote:

> There
> are SOME things that he does enjoy at school, which I don't think I
> would have even thought of to offer as an opportunity.

But you'll offer lots of OTHER opportunities that they didn't offer
there, too.

> For example, he
> learned several poetry genres and had fun putting together various
> forms of poetry.

There are no guarantees that he'll be exposed to exactly the same set
of things as he'd be exposed to in school. That's unlikely. But
poetry exists outside of school and, in fact, if he likes poetry,
he'll find it and he'll have a LOT more fun with it outside of
school. My older daughter writes lots of poetry - over the years
she's watched and participated in "poetry slams," got lots and lots
of books of poetry of all kinds from the library, engaged in "writing
marathons" with online friends, created a lot of 'zines that included
her own and other people's poetry, utilized an online writing course
called "Ringer's Secret School of Writing" (secretschool.com), and
even ran writing workshops at Not Back to School Camp.

My middle daughter reads a lot of poetry, doesn't write it as far as
I know (she might be keeping it private).

My youngest daughter occasionally reads a bit of poetry.

None of them have any hint of negative attitudes about "poetry."
That's more than can be said about most kids who've been "exposed" to
it in school.

-pam


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