hmschleidt

Hi, I have only posted once and got very helpful resources, so I
thought I would pose a couple of questions, since I have
been "lurking" and am curious as to the answers.

My questions are not meant in any way, shape or form as a criticism
of those that radically unschool as a lifestyle, only as information
to file for future reference.

I see that many people use unschooling in their life, and not as an
educational only philosophy. What I mean is that there are fewer
disciplines, fewer rules or mandatory commitments (say to piano for 1
year or swimming lessons, etc - if the child becomes disinterested,
there is a philosophy to discontinue that route). Fewer mandatory
bedtime rituals, forced eating habits, etc.

My main question is "Where did this idea of 'radical' unschooling
begin and if the answer if basically from John Holt, could you point
me in the direction of his writings that back this idea up?? I am
reading much of John Holt's work and while I find it to support
educational unschooling, I have yet to come across the lifestyle
unschooling I describe.

I am intrigued by this and have considered it as an option when my
children get a little bit older, but with a 1, 3, 5, and 8 year old,
we need a little more authority-type leading in our house or I feel
that it would be chaotic, at best. I already am very unstructured,
child-led educationally. I buy into "Better Late than Early"
concepts and the idea that a child will really only learn with
retention if they are interested or passionate about something. We
consider anything we "have" to do that we aren't interested in to
be "hoop-jumping". (Evaluations, etc)

Anyway, as I stated, this is not a judgement because I am looking at
this as a possible future way of living, but need a little more in
the resource department to really see that it works. Furthermore, I
have very unsupportive parents about the unschooling process, both
educationally and lifestyle ways. I have learned to defend myself in
some areas, but any help you could provide would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance and hope everyone has a wonderful 2009!
Heather

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Here is a collection of quotes from Holt:
http://sandradodd.com/holt/quotes
most are not compatible wit an authoritary parenting home.
But my question for you is:
What is authoritary parenting to you?
Why do you think you could not unschool "radicaly"?
Why do you think your home would be chaotic?
Unschooling is about trusting your chld to learn what she needs, wants when she is ready. How can you trust your child to do that nad not trust her in other aspects of her life?
More on Holt
http://sandradodd.com/johnholt

Some other good reads that might help you understand why whole life unschooling:
http://sandradodd.com/option
http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/stages
http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/control

http://sandradodd.com/haveto


 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

This answers your question directly:
http://sandradodd.com/chore/option
here it is- go to the pages for links to more reading-

 In a message dated 1/9/2004 SandraDodd wrote at [email protected]:
If a family shows up here who's still doing school at home and wants to unschool, maybe the talk about food and chores and bedtimes is just going to overwhelm and confuse them. Because there CAN be unschooling in a family where kids also have chores and bedtimes and have to clean their plates. I don't personally think it will have the depth or benefit, ultimately, as a house where the children's preferences and freedoms have high priority, but it could still absolutely be, in homeschooling terms, unschooling.
I think this is a good point, and something I had been wondering about. We have unschooled for the past five years. My children had no assigned academic work; no TV, computer, or video game rules; and in general did what they wanted to when they wanted to. But they did have chores, and they did have regular meal and snack times and no food in between, and they did have bedtimes.
On the other hand, after being on this list for only a few days, I started to get the point of doing away with bedtimes, food control, and chores. I saw the whole picture and respect my children a lot more because of it. We no longer have assigned chores and surprise, surprise, my children often are willing to help out anyways. We no longer have any food controls, and I ask my children what they would like before I go to the grocery store, and believe it or not, I think they eat healthier than before. We no longer have bedtimes, and the kids do stay up a lot later than they used to, and they're sometimes too noisy even when I tell them that I'm trying to rest, but this is still new to them, and I think they'll settle down after a while when they trust the situation more.
I think it's great that all these topics were discussed on this list. This is a great place for other unschoolers like myself to see that there can be so much more to unschooling than just not doing formal academics.
Jacqueline (Ivorygrace7...)
________________________________


A mom on a discussion list had questions, and Robyn Coburn gave these inspiring answers:
Q:I have been reading more on unschooling and I keep getting "stuck" on the whole no limitations or restrictions on food, tv, video games, computer time, bedtimes, participation in chores, etc. After reading some of the opinions/interpretations of other unschoolers I have become almost leary of using the term to describe what we do. So my question....are you an unschooler if you DO have guidelines on these issues?????
Technically, Unschooling is simply "not doing school" - trusting that your children will learn all they need from living a life of engaging in their interests.
If you don't want to Radically or Whole Life Unschool, then don't - no one is going to send the goon squad over to your house to insist that you drop all restrictions, or even that you ease your restrictions gently. However, we might suggest this as a way to greater joy and partnership with your children, instead of continuing to live in an adversarial manner with them, even if it is only mildly adversarial.
I would encourage you to do more reading about living by Principles instead of rules, and especially to read at www.sandradodd.com/unschooling and http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
One major foundation of Unschooling is the Principle of Trust. Unschooling will never be as sparkling and joyful and transcendently brilliant while you are only prepared to trust your children as long as they are making the same choices that you would make on their behalf. What you are then depriving them and yourself of are the startlingly brilliant, extraordinary, more creative choices that they would make for themselves, when they are able to be the fully autonomous arbiters of their own learning and managers of their own time.
Whilever you are the person deciding which of their needs or interests is worthy of fulfilling, you are depriving them of the opportunity to fully know themselves. Q:We do alot of things together as a family because it's just what we do...we don't offer them the choice to not participate with family/household responsibilites - it's not really questioned, it's just what we do.
By relinquishing the desire to control, you help your child onto the path of living mindfully themselves, making choices and decisions mindfully and deliberately, instead of reactively.
How would you react if the lack of choice *were* to be questioned one day? Would your subsequent actions be likely to enhance or detract from your relationship with your children?
You are assuming that given the choice the children would never choose to help. The lists are full of stories of children spontaneously helping, doing unasked cleaning or tidying as gifts for their parents, doing *more* than the children with externally directed chores ever offer or do. Q:The tv does not stay on all day...I really haven't felt at this point like I have to RESTRICT their tv watching because there is typically something more interesting for them to do but it does go off after our rather late breakfasts. BUT if they did decide that ALL they wanted to do ALL day EVERY day was watch tv.....I would have a problem with that. (I can't really see that happening but...)
It happens here sometimes, and then it doesn't sometimes. I make no rules, give no directives, although I do remind her of other things that might be available in the smorgasbord of activities. My dd gets to choose what activities are of value *to her*. Sometimes that includes a lot of tv. Then she is done for a while. I Trust her to know her own desires. I verbally and physically appreciate her enthusiasm and joy in her chosen love of the moment.
Switch it around a bit with different words:
"But if they did decide that ALL they wanted to do ALL day EVERY day was read books"...
"But if they did decide that ALL they wanted to do ALL day EVERY day was Dig in the garden"....
"But if they did decide that ALL they wanted to do ALL day EVERY day was Play their violins"...
"But if they did decide that ALL they wanted to do ALL day EVERY day was Ride their horse"...
"But if they did decide that ALL they wanted to do ALL day EVERY day was Swim"....The fact is that even if it is ALL they want to do for ALL day EVERY day, it will still be temporary; EVERY day would still not last forever. It would be a temporary need being fulfilled. Discovering and facilitating the children's passions is another tentpole of Unschooling practice. A child discovering something that they *want* every day is cause for celebration.
The only way to know if your children genuinely, truly want to do the other activities is if they have the option to choose not to do them. They can only choose to switch it off when they have the option to leave it on. Q:The girls don't choose when they go bed. We don't have a "set" bedtime...it flexes depending on what time they got up, what we're doing the next day and how early we have to get up and how everyone is acting and feeling. Ultimately though, when it's time...it's time. Once again, it's not typically questioned because they're tired and we have a nice routine that we follow and they share a bed/bedroom so they chit chat and do shadow puppets,etc. BUT if they decided that they wanted to stay up till 11 or 12 or later....well, I don't consider that an option for a 7 and 5 year old.
Certainly there is no need to fix what isn't broken, or borrow trouble from a currently non-existent future scenario.
However what I would encourage you to think about is just how arbitrary the times are that you mention. There is nothing magical about any particular hour on the clock, especially if the next day is fluid. Some children are naturally night owls, even when they are 7 and 5. Some are going to be early rising morning people for their entire lives. What is important is understanding and facilitating everyone's needs as much as is possible. At present it seems like everyone's needs are being met. Things can change, which is one reason why Principles work better in Unschooling, than rules or dictates.
Every time you feel the urge to control a choice, you can ask yourself "why?" and begin to question the assumptions (or fears) about children, parenting, learning and living joyfully that you are holding on to.
Intentions matter. Guidance offered from the place of partnership and Trust has a different feeling, avoids rebellion, and is just plain less focused on the trivial. Guidance means optional acceptance instead of mandatory compliance. Guidance means parents being safety nets, not trap doors or examiners. Guidance facilitates mindfulness. Directives shut it down, and may even foster resentment instead.
The idea of Unschooling is for parents to be the facilitators of options, the openers of doors, the creators of environments of freedom, and the guardians of choice, not the installers of roadblocks and barriers. Unschoolers are making the huge and wonderful choice to renounce our legal entitlements to be the authoritarian controllers of our children's lives, and instead choose to be their partners.
Robyn L. Coburn
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hmschleidt

Thank you for the information. I will really look at it and see how
I can change some of the things we do to be more trusting of the
children.

Overall, I think I, personally, am very trusting of my children,
especially when it comes to the things most people get worried about -
reading and math. My 8 yo reads on a upper 1st grade level (if
someone were to compare him) but I think that is just fine - it is
his level, he taught himself to read mostly and he enjoys being read
to. He has expressed an interest in learning to spell because he
can't spell much and we have looked into some ways for him to improve
his spelling. Some days, when he is interested, I work with him on
writing letters to friends or relatives. It is laborious, but it is
what he has asked for.

I think the big issue with the "rules" of the household is my
husband. He wants the kids in bed at a certain time (all three boys
share one room) and demands they listen to him because he is
the "authority" and what he says goes. I know that he gets this type
of parenting from his parents. My parents were VERY trusting and
didn't give me any rules or curfews, etc. It worked for me, but not
for my sister - who was constantly doing the wrong things (drinking,
staying out until 3 am, skipping school). I am trying to role model
the idea of peaceful parenting, trusting my kids with non-academic
things (my husband is almost completely on board now with unschooling
educationally).

I guess my thoughts are that right now the timing for our family - me
AND my husband - are not ideal for me to push for an unschooling
lifestyle beyond education. Since this is my goal as a destination,
I am looking for ways to ease into this style of living while not
bombarding my husband with a list of demands as to how we need to
change our lives NOW.

It is chaotic at our house as it is with four young children any way
you look at it. I appreciate the posts and look forward to
researching this further. I believe that my journey with unschooling
has just begun and can only get better.

Heather


--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> Here is a collection of quotes from Holt:
> http://sandradodd.com/holt/quotes
> most are not compatible wit an authoritary parenting home.
> But my question for you is:
> What is authoritary parenting to you?
> Why do you think you could not unschool "radicaly"?
> Why do you think your home would be chaotic?
> Unschooling is about trusting your chld to learn what she needs,
wants when she is ready. How can you trust your child to do that nad
not trust her in other aspects of her life?
> More on Holt
> http://sandradodd.com/johnholt
>
> Some other good reads that might help you understand why whole life
unschooling:
> http://sandradodd.com/option
> http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/stages
> http://sandradodd.com/rules
> http://sandradodd.com/control
>
> http://sandradodd.com/haveto
>
>
>  
> Alex Polikowsky
> http://polykow.blogspot.com/
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
>  
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 27, 2008, at 2:53 PM, hmschleidt wrote:

> My questions are not meant in any way, shape or form as a criticism
> of those that radically unschool as a lifestyle

I can't recall any of the regulars reacting as though criticized on
the list.

What gets defended is the quality of ideas put on the list about
joyful relationships with kids.

It would be interesting to see what responses you thought were
reactions to criticism.

The regulars already know radical unschooling works so there's no
need to defend it against criticism. No one who pops onto the list
and says "That's ridiculous!" has any power to change what is already
working for us! But they do need to pipe down if they go on and on
with their fears. Not because it's threatening but because it's a
waste of time for the list members who are have set aside their fears
about this radical system to come here to find out how to make it
work in their families.


> I am intrigued by this and have considered it as an option when my
> children get a little bit older, but with a 1, 3, 5, and 8 year old,
> we need a little more authority-type leading in our house or I feel
> that it would be chaotic, at best.

Do you think the people on the list have a higher tolerance for
chaos? Or that the little kids of families on this list are mellower?

Those are serious questions. You've looked at what we do and assumed
chaos. Better to ask what really happens than to assume! :-) Tell us
your situation and people will give their personal experiences.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by authority-type leading. Certainly
radical unschooling parents use their greater knowledge of the world
to help kids find better ways to get what they want. If there's a
consensus among the kids that they all want to play on the highway,
mom's not going to say okay! ;-) She's going to help them find a
safer, better way to meet whatever need they have.

But if by authority-type leading you mean "Only 2 cookies," because
you're sure you know what their bodies need better than they do, you
may be able to control those cookies, but you'll be paying for it
with kids who learn they need to cling to their own initial ideas in
the face of your ideas because it's the only way to get what they
want. You'll make the future shift to radical unschooling more
difficult because they kids won't trust that you're their partner.

> Anyway, as I stated, this is not a judgement because I am looking at
> this as a possible future way of living, but need a little more in
> the resource department to really see that it works.

Depends what your definition of "works" is!

If your goal is strong relationships between family members, it
works beautifully. If your goal is model children who behave
regardless of what situation they're put in, then you'll think it's a
miserable failure!

> Furthermore, I
> have very unsupportive parents about the unschooling process, both
> educationally and lifestyle ways. I have learned to defend myself in
> some areas, but any help you could provide would be appreciated.

I think defense tends to ramp up offense. They can't push unless you
give them something to push against.

Their strong reactions are because they care. They're worried. What
you're doing looks like madness and they're concerned for your kids
because you apparently don't care or you wouldn't be doing these
wacky things (or have some kind of screw loose that you can't see the
obvious consequences you're headed towards).

Some simple approaches are:

"Thanks, I'll think about that."

"What we're doing is working for now. When it stops working we'll try
something different."

If someone is persistent in wanting to debate, then one approach is
to compile a list of books and articles from the internet and say
you'd love to debate it if they could get up to speed.

Sandra Dodd has lots of information:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

and mine has a lot of answers to common unschooling questions:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Erin

"But they do need to pipe down if they go on and on
with their fears. Not because it's threatening but because it's a
waste of time for the list members who are have set aside their fears
about this radical system to come here to find out how to make it
work in their families."

This list is specifically designed for those that are seeking out
information on the basics of unschooling and they may have
many "fears" or concerns about certain things. I think this would be
a great place for them to voice those "fears" and get feedback. It
seems a bit harsh to consider someone that has multiple "fears" or
concerns they are posting about to be "wasting time for the list
memebers who have set aside their fears".


--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 27, 2008, at 2:53 PM, hmschleidt wrote:
>
> > My questions are not meant in any way, shape or form as a
criticism
> > of those that radically unschool as a lifestyle
>
> I can't recall any of the regulars reacting as though criticized
on
> the list.
>
> What gets defended is the quality of ideas put on the list about
> joyful relationships with kids.
>
> It would be interesting to see what responses you thought were
> reactions to criticism.
>
> The regulars already know radical unschooling works so there's no
> need to defend it against criticism. No one who pops onto the list
> and says "That's ridiculous!" has any power to change what is
already
> working for us! But they do need to pipe down if they go on and on
> with their fears. Not because it's threatening but because it's a
> waste of time for the list members who are have set aside their
fears
> about this radical system to come here to find out how to make it
> work in their families.
>
>
> > I am intrigued by this and have considered it as an option when my
> > children get a little bit older, but with a 1, 3, 5, and 8 year
old,
> > we need a little more authority-type leading in our house or I
feel
> > that it would be chaotic, at best.
>
> Do you think the people on the list have a higher tolerance for
> chaos? Or that the little kids of families on this list are
mellower?
>
> Those are serious questions. You've looked at what we do and
assumed
> chaos. Better to ask what really happens than to assume! :-) Tell
us
> your situation and people will give their personal experiences.
>
> I'm not quite sure what you mean by authority-type leading.
Certainly
> radical unschooling parents use their greater knowledge of the
world
> to help kids find better ways to get what they want. If there's a
> consensus among the kids that they all want to play on the
highway,
> mom's not going to say okay! ;-) She's going to help them find a
> safer, better way to meet whatever need they have.
>
> But if by authority-type leading you mean "Only 2 cookies,"
because
> you're sure you know what their bodies need better than they do,
you
> may be able to control those cookies, but you'll be paying for it
> with kids who learn they need to cling to their own initial ideas
in
> the face of your ideas because it's the only way to get what they
> want. You'll make the future shift to radical unschooling more
> difficult because they kids won't trust that you're their partner.
>
> > Anyway, as I stated, this is not a judgement because I am looking
at
> > this as a possible future way of living, but need a little more in
> > the resource department to really see that it works.
>
> Depends what your definition of "works" is!
>
> If your goal is strong relationships between family members, it
> works beautifully. If your goal is model children who behave
> regardless of what situation they're put in, then you'll think it's
a
> miserable failure!
>
> > Furthermore, I
> > have very unsupportive parents about the unschooling process, both
> > educationally and lifestyle ways. I have learned to defend
myself in
> > some areas, but any help you could provide would be appreciated.
>
> I think defense tends to ramp up offense. They can't push unless
you
> give them something to push against.
>
> Their strong reactions are because they care. They're worried.
What
> you're doing looks like madness and they're concerned for your
kids
> because you apparently don't care or you wouldn't be doing these
> wacky things (or have some kind of screw loose that you can't see
the
> obvious consequences you're headed towards).
>
> Some simple approaches are:
>
> "Thanks, I'll think about that."
>
> "What we're doing is working for now. When it stops working we'll
try
> something different."
>
> If someone is persistent in wanting to debate, then one approach
is
> to compile a list of books and articles from the internet and say
> you'd love to debate it if they could get up to speed.
>
> Sandra Dodd has lots of information:
> http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
>
> and mine has a lot of answers to common unschooling questions:
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Ren Allen

~~This list is specifically designed for those that are seeking out
> information on the basics of unschooling and they may have
> many "fears" or concerns about certain things. I think this would
be a great place for them to voice those "fears" and get feedback.~~


Absolutely!
It IS a place for people to share fears and get lots and lots of feedback.

~~ It
> seems a bit harsh to consider someone that has multiple "fears" or
> concerns they are posting about to be "wasting time for the list
> memebers who have set aside their fears".~~

I don't think it was meant that someone shouldn't share their fears. I
believe (and I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) that the kind of posts
being referred to are the ones that are abrasive and shouting about
how "wrong" we all are. It's about the person's fears, but it's also
about the new member wanting to let us know we're all
crazy/wrong/stupid for trusting our children.

Some of us have been living this lifestyle so long that it seems the
only natural way to live.:) It's sometimes hard to remember how it
felt to question the sanity of trusting your children, or the dance of
considering all needs with respect (even your own).

But we all questioned at some point...many earlier than myself. We've
all faced certain kinds of fears and most of us are raising our
children very differently than how we were raised, which takes a LOT
of mindfulness and questioning.

Squawking about fears is different than questioning fears to me. The
person that is here to understand, rather than tell everyone they are
wrong/crazy is easy to relate to and continue a conversation with.:)

Post your fears, your questions, your concerns and joys. Yes,
yes....and be prepared to be questioned back.

Ren

Meridith Richardson

I have many fears, but the laws of attraction keep pulling me towards this free and trusting way of life.  I guess time will tell the path to which God leads us, but for now we seem to be heading in this direction.  I do enjoy seeing other people post their fears as many are/were mine, and the feedback to these posts is often priceless to me.
Thanks
Meridith
mom to Faith 7


--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:

From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling as an educational only philosophy
To: [email protected]
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 11:21 AM






~~This list is specifically designed for those that are seeking out
> information on the basics of unschooling and they may have
> many "fears" or concerns about certain things. I think this would
be a great place for them to voice those "fears" and get feedback.~~

Absolutely!
It IS a place for people to share fears and get lots and lots of feedback.

~~ It
> seems a bit harsh to consider someone that has multiple "fears" or
> concerns they are posting about to be "wasting time for the list
> memebers who have set aside their fears".~~

I don't think it was meant that someone shouldn't share their fears. I
believe (and I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) that the kind of posts
being referred to are the ones that are abrasive and shouting about
how "wrong" we all are. It's about the person's fears, but it's also
about the new member wanting to let us know we're all
crazy/wrong/ stupid for trusting our children.

Some of us have been living this lifestyle so long that it seems the
only natural way to live.:) It's sometimes hard to remember how it
felt to question the sanity of trusting your children, or the dance of
considering all needs with respect (even your own).

But we all questioned at some point...many earlier than myself. We've
all faced certain kinds of fears and most of us are raising our
children very differently than how we were raised, which takes a LOT
of mindfulness and questioning.

Squawking about fears is different than questioning fears to me. The
person that is here to understand, rather than tell everyone they are
wrong/crazy is easy to relate to and continue a conversation with.:)

Post your fears, your questions, your concerns and joys. Yes,
yes....and be prepared to be questioned back.

Ren


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Geneva Goza

You may enjoy reading Summerhill by A. S. Niell

I may have misspelled his last name. At any rate, the book is widely
available.







Geneva





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 28, 2008, at 11:05 AM, Erin wrote:

> It
> seems a bit harsh to consider someone that has multiple "fears" or
> concerns they are posting about to be "wasting time for the list
> memebers who have set aside their fears".

Which is why I said "goes on and on."

If someone is determined to cling to their fears and insists they
can't do what unschoolers suggest, they're wasting everyone's time.
Someone actively working to let go of fears, who asks advice on how
to let go is exactly what the list is good for. :-) Someone who
repeatedly insists they can't do something is just fishing for
agreement that their particular fear and situation is unique and way
more important to cling to than their child's joy.

Working on examining and releasing fears is hard! Clinging to them is
easy. I suspect the people who cling to fears assume it's easy for
other folks who are letting go or that they don't have fears. For the
most part that's not true. (There are always people who find
unschooling naturally fits with their thinking but most of us aren't
so lucky!) So the list is here to help the people willing to do the
hard work, not the ones who want to cling to their fears and have the
list soothe them.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Erin

Excellent! Thank you, Ren, for your response...that makes sense! I
thought she meant people posting about the normal fears all (or at
least many) of us face as we come into this way of life, not
actual "flaming" type behavior!

Thank you!!!

Erin

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~This list is specifically designed for those that are seeking out
> > information on the basics of unschooling and they may have
> > many "fears" or concerns about certain things. I think this would
> be a great place for them to voice those "fears" and get feedback.~~
>
>
> Absolutely!
> It IS a place for people to share fears and get lots and lots of
feedback.
>
> ~~ It
> > seems a bit harsh to consider someone that has multiple "fears"
or
> > concerns they are posting about to be "wasting time for the list
> > memebers who have set aside their fears".~~
>
> I don't think it was meant that someone shouldn't share their
fears. I
> believe (and I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) that the kind of posts
> being referred to are the ones that are abrasive and shouting about
> how "wrong" we all are. It's about the person's fears, but it's also
> about the new member wanting to let us know we're all
> crazy/wrong/stupid for trusting our children.
>
> Some of us have been living this lifestyle so long that it seems the
> only natural way to live.:) It's sometimes hard to remember how it
> felt to question the sanity of trusting your children, or the dance
of
> considering all needs with respect (even your own).
>
> But we all questioned at some point...many earlier than myself.
We've
> all faced certain kinds of fears and most of us are raising our
> children very differently than how we were raised, which takes a LOT
> of mindfulness and questioning.
>
> Squawking about fears is different than questioning fears to me. The
> person that is here to understand, rather than tell everyone they
are
> wrong/crazy is easy to relate to and continue a conversation with.:)
>
> Post your fears, your questions, your concerns and joys. Yes,
> yes....and be prepared to be questioned back.
>
> Ren
>

Erin

Thank you, Joyce!!! I see what you mean!

Erin

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 28, 2008, at 11:05 AM, Erin wrote:
>
> > It
> > seems a bit harsh to consider someone that has multiple "fears" or
> > concerns they are posting about to be "wasting time for the list
> > memebers who have set aside their fears".
>
> Which is why I said "goes on and on."
>
> If someone is determined to cling to their fears and insists they
> can't do what unschoolers suggest, they're wasting everyone's
time.
> Someone actively working to let go of fears, who asks advice on
how
> to let go is exactly what the list is good for. :-) Someone who
> repeatedly insists they can't do something is just fishing for
> agreement that their particular fear and situation is unique and
way
> more important to cling to than their child's joy.
>
> Working on examining and releasing fears is hard! Clinging to them
is
> easy. I suspect the people who cling to fears assume it's easy for
> other folks who are letting go or that they don't have fears. For
the
> most part that's not true. (There are always people who find
> unschooling naturally fits with their thinking but most of us
aren't
> so lucky!) So the list is here to help the people willing to do
the
> hard work, not the ones who want to cling to their fears and have
the
> list soothe them.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Meryl Ranzer

Reading Sandra's article on "How To Raise A Respected Child", I came
across this:

"With the freedom to choose to stay up or to go to bed, I saw toddlers
ask to go to bed because they were tired, and then saw them go to
sleep smiling, and wake up happy. They had all the waking they wanted,
and all the sleep they wanted, instead of feeling deprived of either."

In the last few weeks Logan, (just turned 2) is resistant to going to
sleep.
He used to tell me he was ready for sleep.
Now, when all of the signs are there, glazed eyes, leaning into his
dad or me, he may not want to go to sleep.
We have been following his lead, but bed times have been getting
later, and later...11:30pm, used to be 9:30-10:00pm.
Some mornings he'll get up later, but not always.
The thing is, he co-sleeps and nurses a lot during the night, he is
also a very restless sleeper, (kicking his dd quite a bit).
So, dh and I wake up so tired, and WE want to go to sleep earlier so
we get enough rest.
How can we do this without creating "bed time rules"?
We don't have any power struggles now because he has so much freedom
to "be".
I'd love some ideas from anyone who has been in this situation.


Meryl Ranzer
mranzer@...





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ulrike Haupt

Hi Meryl

You wrote:
In the last few weeks Logan, (just turned 2) is resistant to going to
sleep.
He used to tell me he was ready for sleep.
Now, when all of the signs are there, glazed eyes, leaning into his
dad or me, he may not want to go to sleep.
<snip>
The thing is, he co-sleeps and nurses a lot during the night, he is
also a very restless sleeper, (kicking his dd quite a bit).
So, dh and I wake up so tired, and WE want to go to sleep earlier so
we get enough rest.
How can we do this without creating "bed time rules"?
We don't have any power struggles now because he has so much freedom
to "be".
I'd love some ideas from anyone who has been in this situation.

*** Ok let's try this:
Maybe he needs some additional assistance in 'falling asleep' and maybe the
co-sleeping needs a little tweaking.
When my youngest granddaughter has difficulties falling asleep, even when
she is 'dead tired' at times it helps to get her away from the other
people - at least six feet away - and hold her and swing her softly and hum
to her. This has to do with the energetics of wht I found in Human Design.
And it may also be relevant to the slepping patterns your little one is
showing. Sometimes the inner energies of certain people have an influence on
the energies of the people around them that makes it very difficult for
these to relax and become calm. This is absolutely not personal, but I found
that since I know about this (and my daughter knows, too, so it is easier to
implement certain unconventional actions) it has made life so much more
easier for all of us.
So, there may be a person around who would be the best to be near to when
the little one is tired to enable him to actually fall asleep. My guess is
that the same person could be a good co-sleeping partner. To have all the
others with possible 'turning on' energies around may give this whole
exercise a very varied result.
To know about the energy designs you can get HD charts for free from most HD
websites. Then give me an email call and I am willing to tell you more -
also for free, off group, of course.
Another way to work with this sleeping issue would be EFT, but I find that
going to the root of the energies makes the whole experience less traumatic
in the end.

My authority comes from having five children with different sleeping
patterns and needs and at least two grandchildren living with us often
enough to experience sleeping issues first hand.

Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia - somewhere in Africa

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

In the last few weeks Logan, (just turned 2) is resistant to going to
sleep.
He used to tell me he was ready for sleep.
Now, when all of the signs are there, glazed eyes, leaning into his
dad or me, he may not want to go to sleep.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There has been many things that help my kids stop figthing when sleepy.
When they are like that, tired but too busy to sleep I usually do one of these( but you need to find out what works for you):
After getting ready for bed ;pippi, pjs ( or not), brush teeth, water , make sure they are not hungry,...
GO to a darkened, quiet room and put his toys around and play with him until he jumps in you lap and nurse to sleep.
I sit in my comfy recliner with the lights down and put a movie for the child in the DVD so we can watch together.
I take the toys to bed and I rest while the child plays and is ready to sleep.
Ands what i do the most nowadays that works for me:
 We put all her Barbies and Horse, and Unicorns to sleep then we got to a quiet darkened room , I sit in my comfy chair,
turn my little TV on with my shows DV'rd, this room has lots of toys. Gigi will jump on my lap nurse , then play, then she will finally jump on and nurse to sleep.
I don't' fight with them to go to sleep. It is counterproductive.
If I am tired I will relax on a comfy recliner or my bed while the child plays and joins me to sleep.
Hope it helps.

Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lovejoy

-----Original Message-----


From: hmschleidt <hmschleidt@...>


I see that many people use unschooling in their life, and not as an
educational only philosophy. What I mean is that there are fewer
disciplines, fewer rules or mandatory commitments (say to piano for 1
year or swimming lessons, etc - if the child becomes disinterested,
there is a philosophy to discontinue that route). Fewer mandatory
bedtime rituals, forced eating habits, etc.

My main question is "Where did this idea of 'radical' unschooling
begin and if the answer if basically from John Holt, could you point
me in the direction of his writings that back this idea up?? I am
reading much of John Holt's work and while I find it to support
educational unschooling, I have yet to come across the lifestyle
unschooling I describe.  

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I don't think John Holt actually *said* or *wrote* that unschooling should leak into the rest of your life. But it was plain to *me*, in reading his books and articles and copies of Growing Without Schooling, that he truly believed children to be waaay more capable than adults gave them credit for. As a *child*, *I* knew I was waaay more capable than most adults gave me credit for!

I think that, if you read his last book, you will see how very radical his thinking was becoming. Yes, we may be reading more into it than he'd planned, but my guess is that what we espouse here is only the tip of Holt's personal iceberg, had he lived=2
0this long.




The difference is that we have children, have used his thought processes (and taken them further), and have seen---with our own eyes---what can happen when children are treated with respect and trust and dignity. Holt was kind of the instigator, but I feel that we have followed through. He gave us his hypothesis, but we're writing the dissertation. <G> 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I am intrigued by this and have considered it as an option when my
children get a little bit older, but with a 1, 3, 5, and 8 year old,
we need a little more authority-type leading in our house or I feel
that it would be chaotic, at best. 

-=-=-=-=-=-

Are you saying my house is chaotic? OK, granted, I have two boys, 20 & 12;


but I had a houseFULL of unschoolers last weekend---32 of them. No chaos. Quite peaceful, as a matter of fact.


No one is saying "You must do it this way." What we write on a regular basis is that we have seen the benefits---and they're amazing. But you should never do anything that *you* don't think is right. I have friends who are/were dictators. It works for them. Of course, their children are now grown and visit very rarely and have not very nice things to say about their parents---but it worked for the parents. I have bigger goals.


-=-=-=-=-=-

I already am very unstructured,


child-led educationally. I buy into "Better Late than Early"
concepts and the idea that a child will really only learn with
r
etention if they are interested or passionate about something. We
consider anything we "have" to do that we aren't interested in to
be "hoop-jumping". (Evaluations, etc)

--=-=-=-=-=-

And yet swimming lessons and piano lessons seem important to you. They are "hoops"?

--=-=-=-=-=-

Anyway, as I stated, this is not a judgement because I am looking at
this as a possible future way of living, but need a little more in
the resource department to really see that it works. 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


I can guarantee that it will be harder to implement the longer you wait. The younger your children *are*, the less damage you have to undo. It's that simple. 




I canNOT recommend enough the idea of attending an unschooling conference. You will be able to see teens who have been treated with trust and respect----there's NOTHING like it! You can see them interact with each other, with their parents, with grandparents, and with younger children and babies. THAT's the proof you need. Seriously.




--=-=-=-=-=-=-


Furthermore, I
have very unsupportive parents about the unschooling process, both
educationally and lifestyle ways. I have learned to defend myself in
some areas, but any help you could provide would be appreciated.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I have very little patience with this.

They are YOUR children. YOU are the parent. They had their chance to rear their own child(ren). If they think they did a god job, they need to step=2
0back and let you proceed in the manner that *you* feel is right.

If they think they did a *bad* job, they need to step WAAAY back and stay the hell out of the way so that their mistakes aren't repeated.

BUT...if that's the attitude you take, you need to keep your own advice and be respectful of your own children and how they choose to rear *their* babies. <G>




~Kelly
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa Gray

YEP!!!

I told my parents that they are welcome to birth their own...adopt,
whatever. But my kids are my kids and I'll parent how I want. I don't
even have to prove it will work.


On Dec 29, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Kelly Lovejoy wrote:

>
> I have very little patience with this.
>
> They are YOUR children. YOU are the parent. They had their chance
> to rear their own child(ren). If they think they did a god job,
> they need to step=2
> 0back and let you proceed in the manner that *you* feel is right.
>
> If they think they did a *bad* job, they need to step WAAAY back
> and stay the hell out of the way so that their mistakes aren't
> repeated.
>
> BUT...if that's the attitude you take, you need to keep your own
> advice and be respectful of your own children and how they choose
> to rear *their* babies. <G>
>
> ~Kelly



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

aenclade

More on sleep

All 3 of my boys have challenged me when it comes to sleeping...
they are active and ready to enjoy life so sleeping is not always on
their agenda
we finally embraced unschooling as a lifestyle and this is what is
working for us now:

We say goodnight when we are ready to get in bed, shut our house down,
give him a flashlight and tell him to come to bed when he is ready.
Sometimes he watches TV for awhile and knows how to turn it off when
he is done. He usually appears in our bed within 15 minutes and is
ready to fall asleep easily.

I don't know if this would work with a 2 year old but maybe
he would probably love using a flashlight and finding his way to the
bedroom.

Amanda
--- In [email protected], "Ulrike Haupt" <rica@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Meryl
>
> You wrote:
> In the last few weeks Logan, (just turned 2) is resistant to going to
> sleep.
> He used to tell me he was ready for sleep.
> Now, when all of the signs are there, glazed eyes, leaning into his
> dad or me, he may not want to go to sleep.
> <snip>
> The thing is, he co-sleeps and nurses a lot during the night, he is
> also a very restless sleeper, (kicking his dd quite a bit).
> So, dh and I wake up so tired, and WE want to go to sleep earlier so
> we get enough rest.
> How can we do this without creating "bed time rules"?
> We don't have any power struggles now because he has so much freedom
> to "be".
> I'd love some ideas from anyone who has been in this situation.
>
> *** Ok let's try this:
> Maybe he needs some additional assistance in 'falling asleep' and
maybe the
> co-sleeping needs a little tweaking.
> When my youngest granddaughter has difficulties falling asleep, even
when
> she is 'dead tired' at times it helps to get her away from the other
> people - at least six feet away - and hold her and swing her softly
and hum
> to her. This has to do with the energetics of wht I found in Human
Design.
> And it may also be relevant to the slepping patterns your little one is
> showing. Sometimes the inner energies of certain people have an
influence on
> the energies of the people around them that makes it very difficult for
> these to relax and become calm. This is absolutely not personal, but
I found
> that since I know about this (and my daughter knows, too, so it is
easier to
> implement certain unconventional actions) it has made life so much more
> easier for all of us.
> So, there may be a person around who would be the best to be near to
when
> the little one is tired to enable him to actually fall asleep. My
guess is
> that the same person could be a good co-sleeping partner. To have
all the
> others with possible 'turning on' energies around may give this whole
> exercise a very varied result.
> To know about the energy designs you can get HD charts for free from
most HD
> websites. Then give me an email call and I am willing to tell you
more -
> also for free, off group, of course.
> Another way to work with this sleeping issue would be EFT, but I
find that
> going to the root of the energies makes the whole experience less
traumatic
> in the end.
>
> My authority comes from having five children with different sleeping
> patterns and needs and at least two grandchildren living with us often
> enough to experience sleeping issues first hand.
>
> Blissings
> Ulrike
> from Namibia - somewhere in Africa
>

Nicole Willoughby

YEP!!!

I told my parents that they are welcome to birth their own...adopt,
whatever. But my kids are my kids and I'll parent how I want. I don't
even have to prove it will work.>>>>>>>>>>

Ok Im sorry I'm kinda jumping in in the middle of a thread but ugh! What do you do when your mother comes to visit and then continualy mumbles under her breath that your severly autistic son can learn he just needs someone to blister his bottom, that she loves him but he is getting on her nerves, etc etc. Besides punch her and send her on her way ?


Nicole

Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are always watching you--Robert Fulghum



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lovejoy

I've never had that happen, but if I *did*:



I would tell her just what I wrote before: "You had the opportunity to raise me as you saw fit. If you think you did a good job, you should trust my judgment and leave us alone. If you think you did a bad job, you need to get OUT of my way so that I'm sure not to make the same mistakes you made.




If she agrees to quit mumbling, she may stay. If she doesn't, she must leave NOW---and I would be happy to pack her bags for her.




*My* responsibility is to make my CHILD as happy and comfortable and safe in his own home as possible---NOT her. If she cannot accept him as he is, she may just want to use the phone and computer to correspond for a while.




I would also offer her as much info on autism as I could and suggest that she read it thoroughly so that she knows what I'm really dealing with. If she refuses, I'd be happy to blister her bottom.


~Kelly


-----Original Message-----
From: Nicole Willoughby <cncnawilloughby@...>]


Ok Im sorry I'm kinda jumping in in the middle of a thread but ugh! What do you
do when your mother comes to visit and then continualy mumbles under her breath
that your severly autistic son can learn he just needs someone to blister his
bottom, that she loves him but he is getting on her nerves, etc etc. Besides
punch her and send her on her way ?











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lovejoy

I had a friend with this issue: her mom was watching her son during the day. One day she came home, and as her son ran to greet her, her mom grabbed him and smacked him hard for running in the house. My friend got really angry and said, "I told you not to hit him!" The grandmom said that she had told him before not to run and he just wasn't listening. 



My friend complained to me. I suggested that, the next time it happened, she should simply smack her mom for not listening. <G>




I'm not advocating the smacking. <G> I'm simply pointing out the irony.


~Kelly




-----Original Message-----
From: Nicole Willoughby <cncnawilloughby@...>


Ok Im sorry I'm kinda jumping in in the middle of a thread but ugh! What do you
do when your mother comes to visit and then continualy mumbles under her breath
that your severly autistic son can learn he just needs someone to blister his
bottom, that she loves him but he is getting on her nerves, etc etc. Besides
punch her and send her on her way ?












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Punch her and send her on her way?
There are many alternatives to that.
one is simple telling her that if she does not respect you, your home and your children and stop saying things like that that she is not welcome to come anymore. Tell her that you will not have her talk about physical abuse or be verbally abusive in your house.
Say it and mean it.
When my son was little and would not go with anyone but me my MIL one day tried to take him out of my arms ( as he screamed) ,telling me she had raised 4 kids and taken care of many grandchildren, and that it was OK for him to cry ( he was screaming loud) I told her that I was the mother and that I did not believe in it and this was the way I parented and I was not going to let my child cry. I said politely, direct and I meant it.
When My daugther was born and she was much easier than my son, my MIL loved to hold her until she started fussing and she would them come find me and tell me she needed me. What a change!
Because I set boundaries early on my MIL may not agree with how I raise my kids but she respects my choices and we get along great.
With my mom is the same thing. She does not agree with video games but she respects our choice to have them and play them as much as me and my kids want.
Alex Polikowsky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicole Willoughby

lol! I know and of course I wouldnt have punched my mom in the mouth <grin>

I just busted out laughing though . Its been about an hour since she left and I grabbed the shark to just clean up another mess my son made real quick.
My 9 year old comes out and says momma don't worry about it you should just relax for a while. I told her she was sooo sweet but it was just going to take me a minute and I was going to play on the computer for a bit .
She said no really mom please just leave it for a while the house is just better now. I look at her a little confused and she sasy well grandma just dosen't understand that we have 3 kids living here and the house just cant be spotless all the time .

I just laughed...and the crumbs are still out there on the floor


Nicole

Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are always watching you--Robert Fulghum



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicole Willoughby

*My* responsibility is to make my CHILD as happy and comfortable and safe in his own home as possible---NOT her. If she cannot accept him as he is, she may just want to use the phone and computer to correspond for a while.

I would also offer her as much info on autism as I could and suggest that she read it thoroughly so that she knows what I'm really dealing with. If she refuses, I'd be happy to blister her bottom.>>>>

Ive done the part you wrote before what I quoted and she gets better for a little while then goes back to her old self sigh. I don't know I think that next time she invites herself up I'll get her a motel room and if I dont have them money say sorry we have stuff to do, will be out of town, kids are really sick , whatever that weekend .


Nicole

Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are always watching you--Robert Fulghum



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lovejoy

I wouldn't lie or skirt the issue.



Either she abides by the rules in my house (you know---all the "under MY roof..." junk) or she doesn't see her grandkids.




Hell, *especially* if she's inviting herself! And *she* would have to foot that bill for a hotel. *She* is the one who not behaving herself!




But that's just me. <g>


~Kelly




-----Original Message-----
From: Nicole Willoughby <cncnawilloughby@...>


Ive done the part you wrote before what I quoted and she gets better for a
little while then goes back to her old self sigh. I don't know I think that next
time she invites herself up I'll get her a motel room and if I dont have them
money say sorry we have stuff to do, will be out of town, kids are really sick ,
whatever that weekend .











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicole Willoughby

Hell, *especially* if she's inviting herself! And *she* would have to foot that bill for a hotel. *She* is the one who not behaving herself!

But that's just me. <g> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

SIgh sometimes I'm just way to nice.


Nicole

Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are always watching you--Robert Fulghum



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa Gray

My parents tried that with my severely autistic kid. We did not visit
each other for about three years. My kids are a heck of a lot more
important to me than my parents.
If they said it one time, I'd warn them. I am the parent, and if they
can't handle it, they can't visit. And then they do not come over. I
don't answer the phone, don't return emails. I'm not playing. It's
taken me this many years to get over that mentality as a child, and
I'm not saddling my children with it, neurotypical or not.


On Dec 29, 2008, at 12:55 PM, Nicole Willoughby wrote:

> YEP!!!
>
> I told my parents that they are welcome to birth their own...adopt,
> whatever. But my kids are my kids and I'll parent how I want. I don't
> even have to prove it will work.>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Ok Im sorry I'm kinda jumping in in the middle of a thread but ugh!
> What do you do when your mother comes to visit and then continualy
> mumbles under her breath that your severly autistic son can learn
> he just needs someone to blister his bottom, that she loves him but
> he is getting on her nerves, etc etc. Besides punch her and send
> her on her way ?
>
>
> Nicole
>
> Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are
> always watching you--Robert Fulghum
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicole Willoughby

It's
taken me this many years to get over that mentality as a child, and
I'm not saddling my children with it, neurotypical or not.>>>

I think this is a big part of my problem :)

That and wanting her to understand. She dosent really know Courtney unschools but just little things like trying to get her to understand that when I ask courtney Would you like to help me set the table? and she says no there is absolutely no need for grandma to give disaproving looks and say come on help your mom.

Some nights this same awesome 9 year old cooks the entire meal for her family is choosing not to help one night really a big deal ?

I guess some people arent ever gooing to get some things :(


Nicole

Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are always watching you--Robert Fulghum



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicole Willoughby

We have a sleep problem here. Ds will sometimes fall asleep at 7pm then be back up at 4 am. If I stay up really late then Im really worn out and cranky all day after getting up at 4. dd5 is usualy out no later than 9 on school nights because she has to get up early the next day and has adjusted her schedule to it. dd9 however will stay up till 3 am and sleep in till 10 or 11.

so dh usualy after dinner dh takes ds while I help dd5 get a bath and get relaxed and dd9 usualy hangs out with dh and ds or snatches my computer for a while .
Then either ds will have already fallen asleep while we are bahing or dh will take him on our bed and start laying down with him. I usualy lay down on with dd5 while she falls asleep . Dd9 is either still with dad and brother or is playing quietly in the room with us . I will often fall asleep between 8 and 9 with dd5 . Dh will carry ds to his bed then I go to our room. Sometimes around midnight Im back up for an hour because I enjoy a little quiet time to myself or with Courtney and sometimes I sleep all night.
I sometimes feel bad that dd9 is up by herself for so ling but 1. She knows she can come get us at any time and 2. We get to spend a lot of time together during the day.

So anyhow maybe not the best answer lol but know that they will get older and more independant and just do what you can to rest and make their environment restfull.


Nicole

Don't worry that children never listen to you : worry that they are always watching you--Robert Fulghum



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]