erinnalethea@...

Hi, we have been deschooling/unschooling our almost 8 year old daughter for about two years. We love it and it has been wonderful for each of our personalities. My daughter did attend kindergarten for about a month and a half and it was horrible for her. Even after such a short time it took almost a year for her to regain the vivaciousness and exuberance for things she had lost.


I have read and continue to read about unschooling and listen to unschooling podcasts. Despite all that I am unprepared for the amount of anger I have about a situation we are in. We have lived in our current home for six years and recently had new neighbors move in, a dad, who has shared custody of an 8 year old boy, and the dad's girlfriend. Since my daughter is an introvert (like both of us) and an only child we try to let her play with whatever kids are available as long as she wants to play with them. The boy is mostly fine, a bit goofy and whiny, like lots of kids but they played together pretty well. He has blamed my daughter for some things recently that weren't her fault which is annoying but not too serious and we talk to our daughter about all these situations. I just found out that he told her she can't know stuff and doesn't know how to read and can't learn because she doesn't do worksheets. This is pretty frustrating since my daughter can read but is not confident about it. She also is taller than him, better at certain physical things from gymnastics, and enjoys learning about animals, etc. which seems to bother him sometimes. I do have sympathy for his situation because when he is here with his dad he is always going to activities, church events, even working out at the gym and he just seems to need to chill. And if we tell the dad anything about the kids he immediately reprimands his son even in front of all of us. 


Another aspect to this is that we are not religious and their family is. I told them that we are not religious pretty soon after they moved in because it's just easier to get out of the way. (For reference, my husband and I both grew up in evangelical churches and met at bible college where we both have degrees from so it is not for lack of knowledge that we are not christians.) This hasn't been a big deal although we have been invited to watch The Shack movie and my daughter was recently invited to attend VBS. She seems interested and I don't really mind her going because we talk about any experiences we have but I'm hesitant to take her because I don't feel like I trust the situation to go well.


I guess I'm looking for some perspective because I feel like my anger at religiousness is mucking up my thoughts on how to deal with the comments he said about learning to my daughter. We have talked about how families all do different things and how there are so many ways to learn about things and how just because someone does things different or believes in god doesn't mean they are bad. I'm afraid I'm almost more mad that their son treats my daughter meanly yet I speculate that they are feeling better about themselves because they go to church and check off all the acceptable societal parenting boxes. I do realize this is my hang up and I'm working on it.


What can I talk about with my daughter to mitigate the feelings that come up when another child tells her this stuff? She is pretty sensitive so even if she doesn't really believe it she will have a hard time understanding why someone would even say those things and want to talk about that over and over. Thanks.


nancy.moustafa@...

My son is also almost 8 years old (sensitive kiddo, too) and the way I've addressed people saying mean things is as an opportunity to discuss this phenomenon in general. For example, you might tell your daughter, "Suzy, when Jacob said you weren't smart, those were unkind words. When people say unkind things, it's usually not because they are true, but because someone said those unkind words to them and the don't know what to do with them. Imagine an unkind word as a piece of coal. When they say an unkind word to another person, they are trying to have that piece of coal to them. What might be another way to handle that coal?".... And she can give her suggestions... Throw it away, or tell the person,"please don't pass this on to me, I don't want it." or whatever. Let her know that this doesn't excuse what Jacob said, but it explains that it's not about her. And that there will be people that we come across throughout our lives that will say unkind things (pass on the coal). But there are also many more that have kind words to say (you can ask what kind words are if unkind words are coal? Are they flowers or candy?). .. Let us be from those that spread positive/kind words!

To the boy, you may want to have a chat with him as well. Check out Dr. Marshall Rosenberg's Non Violent Communication concept for tips on how to talk to him since his dad isn't handling the situation appropriately.

I'm sorry you are going through this! Best of luck!

Nancy

Belinda D

Firstly It’s unclear to me exactly what you are angry about.  There’s a lot of frustration and anger evident but each thing that you are listing as a problem you then mitigate with ‘annoying but not too serious’, ’this hasn’t been a big deal although’ ….‘I don’t really mind her going because’ ….etc.

What bothers HER the most?  You don’t mention that she’s particularly stressed or upset about any of the comments in particular, just that you think she will be because she is sensitive.

You acknowledge that you   "feel like my anger at religiousness is mucking up my thoughts on how to deal with the comments he said about learning to my daughter” and it does seem muddled.  I would  suggest you try to bring the focus back to your daughter, and her relationship (not your idea of her relationship) with the family.  Is it adding to the richness and joy of her life?  Does she enjoy being there or being in the boy’s company despite the glitches?  You are there to partner her through the glitches if they are worth the overall balance of more happiness, and to shield her if not.  She did not choose who moved in next door, or their religious views.

To put another perspective on it, two years is really quite near the start of an unschooling journey.  I know at that stage I was still feeling uncertain and insecure about my choices at times.  Your feeling that your neighbours feel superior to you - that “they are feeling better about themselves because they go to church and check off all the acceptable societal parenting boxes” seems to bother you and I wonder if this is the source of some of your anger.   After a longer time of active unschooling, aligning yourself with the right people, reading here, looking at and nurturing happiness in your family, each day working towards more peace, looking at what’s right in front of you, in YOUR home, you will start to feel less sensitive to the opinions of those around you who simply won’t understand your choices and will genuinely worry about your daughter because they buy into the idea that school (and religion)  is necessary.   

A few years down the line for us, and we have to check ourselves sometimes, when WE feel just a bit  ‘better about ourselves’ than our neighbours, when they are shouting at their children and having schooly stress.  They are nice folk but we do feel a tad smug sometimes, like they are the ‘ muggles’ (Harry Potter reference, sorry!) and feel we discovered something wonderful but private.  I am sure they feel sorry for us and our ‘uneducated’ children, but they have to - the amount of time, effort and money they put into schooling means they have to think it’s necessary and that we are a bit mad.  (our boys were in the same primary school class at one stage). 

It is sometimes necessary to actively restrict your connections to conventional parenting in order to build up your confidence.  And from how you feel about the family and their religion I would imagine your daughter attending VBS (I had to look that up!!!) will not help your unschooling journey at this stage.

Lastly: 

"Since my daughter is an introvert (like both of us) and an only child we try to let her play with whatever kids are available as long as she wants to play with them.”

Does that actually mean "try to get her to play?”  I wonder why the ‘try to’ is in the sentence otherwise.

That sounds like you worry that she doesn’t have enough friends and that you are hoping that she WILL play with those kids.  Introverts (I have a whole family of them) in my understanding are very selective about their friends.  They would rather have one or two fantastic ones (often via Skype, not even nearby), than a gaggle of local kids to run with.  My boy never hangs out with the boy next door despite them being the same age, and knowing each other quite well. They just don’t click.  It’s part of the job of unschooling, to actively curate wonderful nourishing friendships, not just the ones that happen to be next door.




Belinda 


erinnalethea@...

Hi Belinda thanks for your comments. I think you're correct that we are still pretty early into the unschooling journey. My main question was how do you talk to your children and provide them things to say to others when kids tell them they don't know things or aren't really learning. I probably mucked up that question with all the background. 

I think you read into my comments about introversion and friendship. The introverted sentence does not mean "try to get her to play" I said "try to let her play" I was simply saying that when opportunities arise for her to get together with kids and she wants to we try to make that happen for her. I am not worried that she doesn't have enough friends, as I said my husband and I are also introverts and understand the preference for a couple close friends instead of tons. But my daughter has said that she wishes she could find one or two friends who are more available to play with as she's been disappointed with some friends we've tried to connect with recently. We don't care if they are next door just available sometimes. 

sukaynalabboun@...

Our own feelings about things can sometimes muck it up for our kids. Maybe her perceptions of things are softer, less burdened with negativity, than yours. 

Part of being a partner is definitely helping to negotiate difficult people or situations. Life has frustrations, and good tools for coping are great skills to pick up along the way.

I have been heartbroken for my kids only to find that they didn't have the same weight or intensity attached to a situation. It's like the loving home life was a buffer and they could let go of things, or hadn't become jaded (and they are all three introverts, sensitive). I learned to let them cue me in on how upsetting something was, and if they wanted or needed my help. I learned to see physical, verbal or other clues that they were becoming uncomfortable....and when that was enough to warrant my getting involved.

I would probably explain that he might not understand how unschooling works, but I do. I might reassure her of many things she does know.  Maybe even explain that lots of parents are upset they cannot or will not homeschool, so sometimes they feel better by talking down to others. Whatever appropriate way to get the msg across that sometimes people act in unkind or unthoughtful ways. That's life, sometimes. Unfortunately, the world doesn't become kinder or softer because we have chosen that for ourselves. We can be right there to help our kids negotiate those times, and listen to their input about what is bothersome.

Jo Isaac

== My main question was how do you talk to your children and provide them things to say to others when kids tell them they don't know things or aren't really learning.==

In your original post you don't say if your daughter was particularly bothered about this  or not, you made it very clear *you* were, though:

==What can I talk about with my daughter to mitigate the feelings that come up when another child tells her this stuff? She is pretty sensitive so even if she doesn't really believe it she will have a hard time understanding why someone would even say those things and want to talk about that over and over.==

She will? Or she did?

Kids in school WILL say stuff like that to kids who don't go to school. Partly because it seems unfair to them they need to go to school (it IS unfair!) so they want to justify it to themselves that it has a point. Partly because probably when they go home after playing with kids who don't go to school - they will ask their parents why - and the parent will tell them they can't learn without school...it's the easiest answer for the parent, and then repeated by the child back to your child.

You need to work on deschooling so that things like this don't rattle you - they ARE going to happen - probably multiple times, different kids, over the years. It's happened to us - it still does with cousins...I'm sure it will happen multiple times again..

The first few times, my son and I (briefly - not a long convoluted conversation) - came up with a response he could use - if they quizzed him on math questions (which they have done) or asked him if he knows X schooly fact, he responds by asking them what geological time period X dinosaur lived in (or whatever else he knows really well, and they don't know at all). 

I wouldn't go into any kind of huge explanation to your daughter - I've just said that the kids are probably sad they have to go to school, so they need to think it's for a good reason.

==I just found out that he told her she can't know stuff and doesn't know how to read and can't learn because she doesn't do worksheets.==

If she's worried - reassure her that worksheets are not the only way to learn, and not a good way to learn, and that she is learning by doing all the time. If she wants a response for the future, I'd just say something like 'I learn things in different ways', or else a response like my sons where you respond to a 'quiz' with a 'quiz' of her own.

Jo



From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of erinnalethea@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]>
Sent: 07 June 2017 17:36
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Neighborhood Friends
 
 

Hi Belinda thanks for your comments. I think you're correct that we are still pretty early into the unschooling journey. My main question was how do you talk to your children and provide them things to say to others when kids tell them they don't know things or aren't really learning. I probably mucked up that question with all the background. 


I think you read into my comments about introversion and friendship. The introverted sentence does not mean "try to get her to play" I said "try to let her play" I was simply saying that when opportunities arise for her to get together with kids and she wants to we try to make that happen for her. I am not worried that she doesn't have enough friends, as I said my husband and I are also introverts and understand the preference for a couple close friends instead of tons. But my daughter has said that she wishes she could find one or two friends who are more available to play with as she's been disappointed with some friends we've tried to connect with recently. We don't care if they are next door just available sometimes. 

Robyn Coburn

===want to talk about that over and over. ===

The answer to this little bit is to listen over and over, as often as she wants to talk about it. My daughter, now 17, processes by verbalizing repeatedly. She always has. I love that about her. If someone else tries to hurry her up or remarks that she is repeating herself, she gets angry. Usually when she keeps talking it out, she herself comes to the same conclusion that I might have said to her. 

Quiet but attentive listening helps. Asking if she wants some advice helps my daughter much more than telling her things before she has asked for my input. (Usually she won't ask.) She has always been this way. 

If you think your daughter is worried or upset but keeping quiet, rather than telling her something, you could ask her how she feels, or what she thinks about, what the other kid said, in as neutral a tone as possible, and usually while you are doing some other activity together. Talking while we were climbing rocks, playing with Barbies or drawing pictures has always given rise to the best conversations between Jayn and I.

Robyn C.


Sandra Dodd

-=-Check out Dr. Marshall Rosenberg's Non Violent Communication concept for tips on how to talk to him since his dad isn't handling the situation appropriately. -=-

I would prefer people talk about unschooling here, from an unschooling point of view. NVC isn’t helpful with unschooling.

-=- "Suzy, when Jacob said you weren't smart, those were unkind words. When people say unkind things, it's usually not because they are true, but because someone said those unkind words to them and the don't know what to do with them.-=-

There are a few problems with this.
It suggests that everything your own child will say will be something someone said to her. That’s not a good way to look at communications or language or relationships.

And if a neighbor says to a child “You won’t learn because you don’t go to school,” they did NOT hear that from someone else. What they heard was “You need to go to school so you will learn.”


-=-... since his dad isn't handling the situation appropriately. -=-
That dad probably thinks a family that won’t send kids to school is not handling the situation appropriately.


Sandra

Sarah Thompson

What's wrong with Non Violent Communication from an unschooling viewpoint? Is it that it is too contrived, and subject to manipulation? My experience with it has been that if everyone doesn't understand it and commit to that type of exchange (and the intention behind it of not being defensive or projecting), it's a way to shut down a debate. But when I read about it, I liked the idea of agreeing to communicate in a non-combative way when tensions are high. 

Sarah

Jo Isaac

==What's wrong with Non Violent Communication from an unschooling viewpoint?==

Sandra's site has a number of quotes and articles on what is wrong with NVC from an unschooling point of view:

  1. Meredith said 'Specific parenting/communication strategies! Like Non-violent communication (NVC), or consensus processing. When sticking to a particular format for problem solving becomes more important than real people with real needs. Somewhat ironically, the NVC, consensus, and non-coercion folks seem to be the most likely to try to talk their kids into submission, explaining and explaining and explaining until the kids give in (if they're lucky).'

    From here: http://sandradodd.com/priorities



2. Andrea Quenneville
I believe that Sandra has said (multiple times) that nonviolent communication (NVC) can get in the way of unschooling, because people get caught up in the NVC rules or insist that their children follow the method. NVC is often touted as a gentle parenting technique.

Here's an article with some thoughts on NVC: 
Nonviolent Communication can hurt people
REALSOCIALSKILLS.ORG


From here: http://sandradodd.com/otherideas



3. From an interview with Sandra:

"2. What’s your perspective on non-violent communication?

I don't like the false overlay "NVC" puts on the world. I've seen people fail to have direct presence and mindfulness because they were mentally trying to label people and judge their expressions of feeling or desire. I prefer people be compassionate and flexible about communicating with others, rather than to pre-decide there is only one way they will communicate or accept being communicated with.

Although it can be a good healing tool for an adult who suffered years of verbal abuse and is in recovery, as a starting place, as something to impose on or require of others, it's unnatural. As for communication between a child and his parents, it's overkill and takes time that could be better used just listening to one another without wondering what a book or a coach would have to say about it.

Choices and compassion will cover that, in an unschooling family where children and parents live closely together as partners."


From here: http://sandradodd.com/interviews/naturalparenting2010



From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Sarah Thompson thompsonisland@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]>
Sent: 08 June 2017 13:15
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Neighborhood Friends
 
 

What's wrong with Non Violent Communication from an unschooling viewpoint? Is it that it is too contrived, and subject to manipulation? My experience with it has been that if everyone doesn't understand it and commit to that type of exchange (and the intention behind it of not being defensive or projecting), it's a way to shut down a debate. But when I read about it, I liked the idea of agreeing to communicate in a non-combative way when tensions are high. 


Sarah

Sandra Dodd

-=-But when I read about it, I liked the idea of agreeing to communicate in a non-combative way when tensions are high. -=-

Communicate lovingly. Have peace as a goal, and good relationships as a goal. Don’t triangulate on a book. Don’t have that book, or that method, or that author, as part of your family’s communication. Be directly with your child.

-=-I liked the idea of agreeing to communicate in a non-combative way-=-

Who agreed with you? Your partner? Your child? Before you communicate, are they required to agree to communicate in that way?

-=- Is it that it is too contrived, and subject to manipulation?-=-

It’s VERY contrived, and it is BUILT of manipulation.
Anyone who communicates outside those rules is a jackal or something, right?

It’s a game. It’s animal cosplay. It’s rules for international negotiations, isn’t it?

-=-My experience with it has been that if everyone doesn't understand it and commit to that type of exchange (and the intention behind it of not being defensive or projecting), it's a way to shut down a debate.-=-

Children will not communicate by the book. You can gradually, gently, help them see if they’re being defensive (when they’re older) or projecting (in a natural way, by examples and by explaining not by saying “You’re projecting”—because the word isn’t as easy to understand now as it was when movie projectors were normal and understood). You can watch out for those things in your own arguments too.

Better yet, avoid arguments!

http://sandradodd.com/peace

Also, the recommendation in this discussion was made about an 8-yr-old neighbor boy. "To the boy, you may want to have a chat with him as well. Check out Dr. Marshall Rosenberg's Non Violent Communication concept for tips on how to talk to him since his dad isn't handling the situation appropriately.”

Wouldn’t the mom have needed to get his agreement to follow the rules in that book, for this to be effective?

I think it was not a good suggestion to make in a discussion where ALL the ideas should be from and about unschooling.

This is on a list of priorities that can hamper unschooling. Meredith N. wrote it:
"Meredith:
Specific parenting/communication strategies! Like Non-violent communication (NVC), or consensus processing. When sticking to a particular format for problem solving becomes more important than real people with real needs. Somewhat ironically, the NVC, consensus, and non-coercion folks seem to be the most likely to try to talk their kids into submission, explaining and explaining and explaining until the kids give in (if they're lucky).”
http://sandradodd.com/priorities

More on how it can be a problem:
http://sandradodd.com/issues/nvc

Sandra