Sandra Dodd

There have been some side conversations in the past few weeks that I thought should be brought to Always Learning, about gender identity issues and unschooling families. Brie has an intro to post, but I wanted to come and set some conditions.

This is not the place to decide “it” (whatever “it” might be), nor the place for ANYone to get pushy or strident. For those who prefer such discussions, just leave a link to a discussion or resource you’re familiar with and are recommending, but it really ought to have something to do with parenting, family relations and child development, more than politics. People can find political discussions on their own very easily.

Be thoughtful, be nice, only post what will help people keep a peaceful learning environment.
Remember it’s an unschooling discussion.

Thanks!

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

brmino@...

I’d like to start a conversation about gender and unschooling. Gender: We probably don’t even all agree what this word means. And, perhaps more challenging, many of our kids are bumping up against definitions we hadn't considered before. For the purpose of this discussion, it will probably be helpful to focus the conversation, as much as possible, on how our kids are experiencing gender, it’s definitions and manifestations. Many of us may, if we haven’t already, have one of our kids or their friends’ ask to be referred to by different pronouns than we’re used to using. Some kids will want to change their names. Some embark on (or ask to start on) a path of biomedical transition to the opposite gender while others are content to mess with traditional gender categories in other ways, sometimes choosing to “socially transition” to the opposite sex without any kind of medical intervention. For lots of prepubertal children who display interest in playing with opposite gender norms, social transition is becoming the norm.

Where/how does unschooling fit into all this? As unschoolers, we’re used to supporting our children’s interests. What happens when the interest is gender-focused, especially in a world where biomedical options are becoming increasingly available, supported and encouraged? How do unschooling principles help us figure out how best to support an interest in “playing” (not meant in a condescending way) with gender norms? Specifically, how do these unschooling principles inform the ways we support our kids depending on the developmental stage, experiences, and personality of each individual child?

I'll talk about my personal experience some, as an unschooling mom whose child considered possibly being in the "wrong body" for a few years, but I'm mostly curious to hear other people's ideas about unschooling and gender issues

Brie

Sandra Dodd

-=-Many of us may, if we haven’t already, have one of our kids or their friends’ ask to be referred to by different pronouns than we’re used to using. Some kids will want to change their names. Some embark on (or ask to start on) a path of biomedical transition to the opposite gender while others are content to mess with traditional gender categories in other ways, sometimes choosing to “socially transition” to the opposite sex without any kind of medical intervention. For lots of prepubertal children who display interest in playing with opposite gender norms, social transition is becoming the norm.-=-

“The norm” among unschoolers?
Not in my experience, though I know a few.
Although SURELY there are and always have been some legitimate transgender individuals, things are moving beyond and away from biological considerations now, and it seems to me like a fad or a contagious wave, and that could be a problem for some unschooling families’ peace and properity.

For those who want to know more, I’ve started collecting links, and one is to a very recent BBC program (part of a documentary series) which can be viewed in the UK for another two or three weeks at a site linked there, and other places (I don’t know how long) at a link that needs a password. The password is here, too:

http://sandradodd.com/transgender

Sandra

brmino@...

---"“The norm” among unschoolers?"----

In some communities, yes. Entire friend groups of unschooling tween/teens are "transitioning" or identifying as something other than the biological sexual characteristics they were born with. That's why I wanted to bring this here - it's something many of us with younger kids are going to face, in some way or another.

I would guess that most unschooling teens with active social lives (both online and in their communities) know at least one person who has changed their pronouns, their name, and perhaps even their hormonal levels, to better fit into a gender that doesn't match their biological sex.

Noor started encountering trans and pangender kids and parents about three years ago, and I was blindsided because on the surface - of course, I would affirm someone's chosen identity. But then, I realized that was problematic (and a bit like bullying) because according to the affirmative model - NO one besides the person doing the identifying has any right to ask questions - that's called "transphobic," questions are anxiety-inducing and "triggering" - all discussion, according to the current, mainstream ways of dealing with these announcements, is supposed to be wholly supportive, never critical (questioning). For me, someone who believes gender is a performance anyway, that was hard to swallow.

Very quickly, knowing a few trans and pangender kids and adults led to Noor thinking maybe she, too, was in the wrong body. The peer pressure was enormous, both online and in face-to-face activities - again, why I think this is a relevant topic for us to be discussing here. 

When she would talk about being in the wrong body, my first reaction was to ask more questions. From there, it quickly seemed likely that the ideas she had about "being female" and what being female means in our culture were causing the problem  - not that there was something wrong with either her brain or her body.

These conversations were harrowing at times. At first, I was told by others and nearly everything I read that I needed to be supportive and affirming (or there was a good chance she'd kill herself, thanks to some wildly exaggerated statistic).
 
Brie

Sandra Dodd

-=-and perhaps even their hormonal levels-=-

Because of a discussion here earlier in January, I got jumped for suggesting that a nine year old girl wait a few years to speak more seriously of a possible gender change. I was criticized by someone in the discussion, who seemed sure that there was No Time to WASTE and it was the most pressing of the array of problems the family had.

That seemed political to me. It seemed that the person wasn’t in the discussion to help people have stable homelives of happy learning so that unschooling would work, but was trying to bully ALL of us into agreeing that the girl would commit suicide if the family didn’t treat her as a boy NOW. But they were living in a religious Bible-Belt grandmother’s house (husband’s grandmother, child’s great-grandmother). The dad was skeptical. I thought the mom should ask the daughter to save that particular problem until they had their own place, and more leeway (and the dad had more time to think).

When one agenda clashes with another, priorities won’t match. But for unschooling if one parent takes a child’s side against the other parent in something like this, unschooling could end for them. I don’t think it’s too selfish of me to think that I would prefer to spend my volunteer time maintaining a group that will actually help parents be calm, rational, peaceful and thoughtful. Some of what I’ve read seems reactionary, and dangerous.

Sandra

Megan Valnes

I'm glad this conversation has come up. I will admit, I find myself perplexed about these gender issues at the forefront for young people today--and I'm only 35! The cultural landscape has changed quickly since I was a girl in high school and I suppose that's always been the way it is from generation to generation. I have had a hard time wrapping my head around the issue because I have always been so thoroughly female, enough that I've never once questioned my gender anyway. In an effort to keep up with my kids perspective, I have tried not to judge the phenomenon reactively, but objectively. I recently watched a documentary on trans-kids and it really helped me learn and soften about the subject. I've been speaking with others about it that have a different perspective than my own, and I myself have friends who consider themselves queer or genderless. And yet, people like Bruce or Caitlin Jenner (please don't slam me) make we wary that this indeed a trend and being responded to rather cavalierly rather than with the seriousness such an issue requires. My mom owned a hair salon and lived in the 80s/90s in a town with a yearly gay-parade, so gays and transvestites are nothing new to me. I've never suffered homophobia. But this is different than drag queens and homosexuality. This is a different take on sexuality than we've yet to have in mainstream American culture. Some young adults are forever altering their bodies and brain chemistry. How will that flesh out later in life(no pun intended, really)? 

My kids and I do talk about this subject very openly because there's no way around it. I sort of made a "pan sexual" joke for a few days there, referring to myself as pan-sexual and then asking my 10-year old what that meant. It was a light way to get the conversation started. She, my 12 year old son, and I chatted for awhile about how it must feel to feel as though one were in the wrong body. Or that one felt genderless. Heart wrenching and strange, I'm sure. I shared my experience of always being sure about who I was, and am, and they too shared that they have never questioned their own gender. My 12 year old offered up that he's "definitely not gay, but has no issue with it." I then shared with them that I had researched a bit on Roman sexuality because they were another culture known for their interesting and open sexuality. It was commonplace for Roman men to take both male and female lovers, and there are a few instances of transgender behavior in Roman record. Bi-sexuality was the norm and not questioned nor looked down upon, for the men anyway. There is less evidence regarding female-female sexuality, though some did exist. This is just one culture, not to mention the Greeks and many others, I imagine, that have more open sexual practices.

In America, we are born of Puritan values, like it or not, and those Puritans were awfully closed-minded when it came to sex and sexuality (a lot of things, really). I try to remember that when I want to make a quick judgment. I have my thoughts and ideas and my kids have their's. My ten year old is very open-minded toward gender, but says she doesn't really understand all the different choices or situations. She's more interested in horses at the moment :). My 12-year-old seems entirely uninterested in the conversation (on a whole--he and his buddies talk about video games and comic books). I continue to digest the information as it comes in. My elder senses say we're going to ride this one out...and see what comes next. 

And, finally, our family has encountered transgender kids at some of our park days and we respect those individuals and their decisions. 






Warmly,
Megan
keeping it real since 1981




On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 5:35 PM, brmino@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

---"“The norm” among unschoolers?"----


In some communities, yes. Entire friend groups of unschooling tween/teens are "transitioning" or identifying as something other than the biological sexual characteristics they were born with. That's why I wanted to bring this here - it's something many of us with younger kids are going to face, in some way or another.

I would guess that most unschooling teens with active social lives (both online and in their communities) know at least one person who has changed their pronouns, their name, and perhaps even their hormonal levels, to better fit into a gender that doesn't match their biological sex.

Noor started encountering trans and pangender kids and parents about three years ago, and I was blindsided because on the surface - of course, I would affirm someone's chosen identity. But then, I realized that was problematic (and a bit like bullying) because according to the affirmative model - NO one besides the person doing the identifying has any right to ask questions - that's called "transphobic," questions are anxiety-inducing and "triggering" - all discussion, according to the current, mainstream ways of dealing with these announcements, is supposed to be wholly supportive, never critical (questioning). For me, someone who believes gender is a performance anyway, that was hard to swallow.

Very quickly, knowing a few trans and pangender kids and adults led to Noor thinking maybe she, too, was in the wrong body. The peer pressure was enormous, both online and in face-to-face activities - again, why I think this is a relevant topic for us to be discussing here. 

When she would talk about being in the wrong body, my first reaction was to ask more questions. From there, it quickly seemed likely that the ideas she had about "being female" and what being female means in our culture were causing the problem  - not that there was something wrong with either her brain or her body.

These conversations were harrowing at times. At first, I was told by others and nearly everything I read that I needed to be supportive and affirming (or there was a good chance she'd kill herself, thanks to some wildly exaggerated statistic).
 
Brie


Sandra Dodd

I’ve added a few links to my page, and was just sent two more, and so will add those.

Back to the story of the family in Georgia:

If a nine-year-old girl is given hormones to block puberty, won’t it affect brain development, too? That affects learning.
Won’t it affect ability to mature in ways other than “secondary characteristics”? That will affect health, and peace, which Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs says affects learning.

Sterility seems an issue. In a place where a minor child can’t get a tattoo or a car loan, should parents really be saying “Oh, sure” about something that might cause sterility?
That affects the family for years into the future. Not for “generations,” if the next generation has been prevented.

But my big question is: Are parents feeling that unschoolers have no choice but to do whatever a child (or a child’s friends) request? Is unschooling causing some parents to feel powerless? Because that’s NOT what unschooling ought to be doing.

Sandra

Megan Valnes

-=-Are parents feeling that unschoolers have no choice but to do whatever a child (or a child’s friends) request? Is unschooling causing some parents to feel powerless?-=-

I don't feel powerless. If one of my children approached me about this issue, I imagine we would approach it like any other issue of such intense gravity: with prudence and caution. A lot of talking, discussing, and *learning*. I would (and do) encourage my kids to look at things from more than one angle (thanks, Sandra, Joyce, & co). I do not feel pressured by society to do anything, including agree with things I don't view as safe or healthy. 

We don't have any close friends that are transgender, so our opinions have not been welcome to those we know. If I had a close friend with a young child asking for hormone therapy or transgender therapies, I would share my concern for future physical and mental health. I would encourage that parent and child to wait until sexuality becomes more relevant, say during the teenage years. And even then, things change quickly and dramatically. But to be precise, no, unschooling does not cause me to feel powerless. 






Warmly,
Megan
keeping it real since 1981




On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

I’ve added a few links to my page, and was just sent two more, and so will add those.

Back to the story of the family in Georgia:

If a nine-year-old girl is given hormones to block puberty, won’t it affect brain development, too? That affects learning.
Won’t it affect ability to mature in ways other than “secondary characteristics”? That will affect health, and peace, which Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs says affects learning.

Sterility seems an issue. In a place where a minor child can’t get a tattoo or a car loan, should parents really be saying “Oh, sure” about something that might cause sterility?
That affects the family for years into the future. Not for “generations,” if the next generation has been prevented.

But my big question is: Are parents feeling that unschoolers have no choice but to do whatever a child (or a child’s friends) request? Is unschooling causing some parents to feel powerless? Because that’s NOT what unschooling ought to be doing.

Sandra


Megan Valnes

-=-If I had a close friend with a young child asking for hormone therapy or transgender therapies-=-

I want to clarify this statement. By transgender therapies, I mean medical procedures. If a child wants to try dressing as another gender or being called a different name, our family would and does respect that. If one of my kids wanted to change their name and/or be known as a different gender, we would support that child. However, I would not support hormonal and/or medical intervention therapies during the developing years.

Warmly,
Megan
keeping it real since 1981

Nicole

Hormonal therapies are so important during the early years and can save so much pain and heartache down the line.  Not every child is ready to make that step
But for those who are, who have been properly counseled, I am horrified people would with hold hormone blockers or hormonal therapy. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 26, 2017, at 8:57 PM, Megan Valnes meganvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

-=-If I had a close friend with a young child asking for hormone therapy or transgender therapies-=-

I want to clarify this statement. By transgender therapies, I mean medical procedures. If a child wants to try dressing as another gender or being called a different name, our family would and does respect that. If one of my kids wanted to change their name and/or be known as a different gender, we would support that child. However, I would not support hormonal and/or medical intervention therapies during the developing years.

Warmly,
Megan
keeping it real since 1981

Sandra Dodd

-=-Hormonal therapies are so important during the early years and can save so much pain and heartache down the line. Not every child is ready to make that step
But for those who are, who have been properly counseled, I am horrified people would with hold hormone blockers or hormonal therapy. -=-

I almost didn’t let this through, because I don’t see it address or follow any of this, from my initial post:

-=-Be thoughtful, be nice, only post what will help people keep a peaceful learning environment.
Remember it’s an unschooling discussion.-=-

So important to what? To a peaceful learning environment for unschooling?
“The early years” as in what years?

-=-who have been properly counseled-=-

Part of the larger problem is what “properly counseled” consists of.

This is too far, and is not thoughtful or nice:
-=-I am horrified -=-

HORRIFIED?
No one has withheld anything, in this discussion. You’ve jumped up and claimed strong offense where there was none.
If you can’t discuss this thoughtfully and from the point of view of unschooling, don’t post.

It’s easy to express indignation and “shock” and create an us-vs.-them situation. That is not the purpose of Always Learning.
http://sandradodd.com/offended

Sandra

brmino@...

This was sent to me with a request to post anonymously:

-------

Whenever I hear about gender issues, I am reminded of myself when I was a little kid. I wanted to be a boy. I dressed like a boy. I borrowed my brothers clothes. I hung out with boys. I went everywhere with my dad and my brother. I helped them work on cars. My dream as a kid was to grow up and be a race car driver. I don't think I identified as a boy but I definitely thought that my life would have been so much better if I had been born a boy. 


The thing that sticks out most about this is the fact that I don't ever recall anybody saying anything about it. I wasn't shamed. I wasn't made to feel bad about it in my family. That is who I was. Nobody questioned it or made a big deal out of it. I also liked to wear dresses and do girly stuff on occasion. I remember being 11 or so and my best friends were boys. We went and played in the woods and played with bugs and snakes and all kinds of boy stuff. I had Barbies too. And those boys would come to my house and play Barbie's with me and we would build stuff for them. My parents let me be. Whether I wanted to go work on cars with my dad or go cook in the kitchen with mom, it was all good. Even now, as an adult, I tend to see myself as more masculine than feminine at times. 


I bring this stuff up because I think the way my parents dealt with it was very much in line with unschooling principles. They went with the flow. I didn't specifically ask them to be a boy. I just did it and there were no questions and no crap. 


We live in a different age now and it seems like people are hyperaware of gender. I have one daughter that likes to dress in clothes that are boyish. She had really short hair for a while and was afraid to use the restroom because people would give her funny looks. She would ask me to go to the bathroom with her. I have supported her by telling her that I will be happy to go to the bathroom with her and if anybody says anything I will be more than happy to do the talking and let people know to buzz off. A person's gender identity isn't really anybody's business. 


brmino@...

----Hormonal therapies are so important during the early years and can save so much pain and heartache down the line.-----

According to most mainstream material you'll find today, this is the standard line: it is better to start hormone blockers before a child starts puberty and then move to the opposite sex hormones when ready to push puberty.

What this does, is stop a child from developing (not just their sexual organs but also their brain) with the chemicals specific to the body they were born in. 

Blockers are touted as a "pause button." However, 100% of children who start blockers move into cross sex hormone therapy. In other words, according to the data, blockers are not being used to allow time to explore other options or treatments for the issues the child is facing. They're used as the first step in a lifetime of specialized biomedical care.

That's troubling, to me, primarily because we will soon have a decent size population of adults who are not only sterile (hormone therapy that's started before puberty and followed with cross-sex hormones leads to sterility 100% of the time for male bodies and almost always for female ones) but because it reinforces that
1) something is wrong with the child and there is a (lifetime) medical fix
2) the cure for dysphoria is medical 

In my opinion, the cure for dysphoria, for the vast majority of people, is realizing that gender is make-believe. Prior to the mass use of blockers (and the 40 new gender clinics specifically focused on children that have opened in the last 7 years) 80% of children who presented with dysphoria grew up to be okay in the bodies they were born into. They also grew up to be gay ;)

And that's critically important information because a lot of the kids presenting at clinics are probably gay, but they've come to the conclusion that there's something wrong with them because of who they're sexually attracted to

----Not every child is ready to make that step-----

This is where I was hoping we could focus specifically on unschooling, parenting, learning, and relationships.

How does one know?

If a child is seeing a therapist who uses the affirming model of identity therapy, as most do, no major questions are asked or other options explored. According to the identity model, if a child says she's transgender, she is, and to deny whatever she asks for is tantamount to abuse.

This is why I think it is important to talk about this trend as unschoolers

---But for those who are, who have been properly counseled----


And what does that look like?  Did you read the articles Sandra linked to on her page? This is the current state of gender therapy in the US:
Layers of Meaning | The Jung Soul

 




---I am horrified people would with hold hormone blockers or hormonal therapy.----

I am horrified that somewhere along the line, biomedicalization became the treatment for waking up and realizing that gender norms suck and you don't want to participate in them. 

Wouldn't it be so much better, for most kids, to learn that it's okay to be/like/dress however they want but that their bodies are fine the way they are? Like with ADHD - it isn't that something is wrong with the child's brain, but that there is something wrong with a culture that expects little ones to sit quietly still while they absorb information they're not interested in. I see a lot of the medicalization around transitioning genders in the same light: it isn't the person who needs fixing, it is the culture

What would happen if, instead of offering up surgeries and hormones, gender clinics (ideally, parents) helped kids break down harmful ideas about gender differences?

This may be helpful reading: The idea that gender is a spectrum is a new gender prison – Rebecca Reilly-Cooper | Aeon Essays

 



Brie


---In [email protected], <greenmagick328@...> wrote :

Hormonal therapies are so important during the early years and can save so much pain and heartache down the line.  Not every child is ready to make that step
But for those who are, who have been properly counseled, I am horrified people would with hold hormone blockers or hormonal therapy. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 26, 2017, at 8:57 PM, Megan Valnes meganvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

-=-If I had a close friend with a young child asking for hormone therapy or transgender therapies-=-

I want to clarify this statement. By transgender therapies, I mean medical procedures. If a child wants to try dressing as another gender or being called a different name, our family would and does respect that. If one of my kids wanted to change their name and/or be known as a different gender, we would support that child. However, I would not support hormonal and/or medical intervention therapies during the developing years.

Warmly,
Megan
keeping it real since 1981

Nicole

Hormones do make a difference. Growing breasts, developing facial hair and a beard, these are all things that can dramatically affect a child that is transgender. Gender fluid is different, sure gender is a construct. Sure one should dress and act the way that is authentic to themselves, but transgender is a different issue. 

As I am not transgender myself I won't continue the topic, I just know from those I know that hormone blockers and later therapies were very important to them. 

Nicole 

Sandra Dodd

Say this more plainly:

-=-80% of children who presented with dysphoria grew up to be okay in the bodies they were born into. They also grew up to be gay ;)-=-

What is “presented with dysphoria”? Sounds too clinical.

Were unhappy in their bodies? Wished to be other?

80% grew up to be at peace with their own bodies? and ALL of them were gay? That doesn’t sound right.

What about girls who were prevented from doing something they could have done if they were boys…. IF that still happens in the world today.

For me, there were three things my dad would have let me do, had I been a boy, that he said no about because I was a girl:
get a job
have a motorbike (the little motorcycles that were popular then—Yamahas, mostly)
join a rock’n’roll band (one asked me to be their singer, and my dad said no)

That was happening when I was 14, 15, and my period was awful. I loved school but I would need to come home when my period started, and curl up on my bed and cry.

I was doing well in school, not being bullied and I had a boyfriend—with another waiting in the wings—all through my teens. Not short-term. Year-long, and wo year relationships. Yet sometimes I was unhappy being a girl.

That was the 1960’s. I HOPE people aren’t keeping their kids from doing things just on the basis of gender so much anymore.

But my point is that I felt strongly that if I were a boy, things would be better. But I still knew some good things about being a girl. And I wasn’t a girly girl—one of my favorite articles of clothing was a men’s shirt my dad had found at a dump (along with a velvet couch and mountain lion rug that went into my cousin’s bedroom)—some rich someone had died, I guess, and stuff had been carted away. The shirt was gold and tan, woven with a thick weave, and was cotton and silk. It had two big breast pockets, so I could wear it without a bra, and did, at 14. My boyfriend thought it was daring. I thought it was comfortable.

When I would sit and wish I had been born a boy instead, I thought if I were a boy, my name should be Keith. I didn’t know any real-world Keiths at all, and didn’t until ten years later. I met a guy who later became my longterm husband and father of my three children, as “Gunwaldt,” his name in the medieval studies group we were in (SCA) and I got to know him pretty well and we sang madrigals together (I was the group leader and he was the best tenor), and he liked me in a special way before I discovered his name was Keith.

What if people had come and persuaded me to be unhappier than I was, and told my parents that if they didn’t pay to have my breasts removed and to get me hormone blockers and replacements that I would surely kill myself? For the sake of the planet, there would have been fewer people. This forum wouldn’t exist. Kirby wouldn’t have worked at a gaming store, and later at Blizzard for a long time, before moving back to Albuquerque and getting married. Marty wouldn’t have married a former highschool cheerleader and been baron of the local SCA group at the very young age of 25. Holly wouldn’t be running around northern New Mexico irritatating anybody (nor helping anyone). I suppose that’s all okay.

But my unhappy times were brief and reactionary to situations and limitations. My periods of happiness were solid and real and long lasting.

Becoming happy with who one is is what growing up is. It’s what maturation is about. Without pressure to ONLY wear certain clothes in a totally inflexible and uncomfortable way, like the 19th century, like the early 20th century, then people CAN wear comfortable shoes and soft cloth, t-shirts and jeans, or leggings, or skirts. If people can find friends who don’t care what they’re wearing and accept that sweats are more comfortable than suits and hard shoes, then they might be less susceptible to outsiders telling them they should be unhappy.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Sent on the side with a request to post it anonymously:
________________________

I am grateful for this conversation. The Sit-down-and-Shut-up and Apologize for honest questions and observations! nature of the discussion around this topic is upsetting to me-I don't want to feel like I can't converse openly with people, and I REALLY don't want my kids growing and learning in an atmosphere where exploration is taboo. I think that last is what worries me most-that they will feel pressure to conform to social norms of discourse that are narrow and constantly shifting. Social change towards greater acceptance of everyone's unique journey is a positive, but substituting one set of rigid rules for another is not growth.

When I was a child, "Free to be you and me" was the ethos. When I am with a person, I want to just be with them. If they are trans, or queer, or any other designation, or anything *not* related to sexuality, for that matter:) I am listening and honoring their experience. But if a child wants to change their body, I want to know what's underneath that. What does it mean to be a woman, or a man? How can a person know what it means to be any of the things, on anyone else's terms? Are we talking about aesthetics, sexual desires, social roles, personalities, types of intelligences? If I am highly analytical and have to work harder at empathy, am I more male? Or is that just a more masculine trait? Would I need a different body to go with that mind? Can a 9yo really, truly understand what it means to turn herself into a man? I don't have any way of answering these questions with certainty, and it is challenging if even *asking* them is taboo.

I want kids, and all people, to love their bodies. To love their minds. To know that they are just right for their path and have a purpose in the world. When I was growing up, I was the beneficiary of a social upheaval that had led to greater acceptance for women and girls as who and what they are born as, and what they make in the world, rather than just the more narrow social roles that had applied to previous generations.

I have no way of knowing whether gender transition is right for someone else. But why wouldn't I dig deeper if my child wanted to make dramatic and irreversible changes to his or her young body, just as I would dig deeper if they made any other declaration of certitude about what specific things they would do as an adult, for work or for play? I don't understand why this particular area of growth an exploration is different from any other, with respect to unschooling.
_____________________________

Sandra Dodd

-=-Growing breasts, developing facial hair and a beard, these are all things that can dramatically affect a child that is transgender. -=-

According to some of the things I’ve been reading, there are people who are saying that “gender identity” is something separate from biology, and separate from psychology.
That seems to mean that it is not scientific, but is just….
What is left? Social? Political? Superstitious? Delusion?

-=-Gender fluid is different, sure gender is a construct.-=-

If gender is a construct, why are people (some who are transgender, and some who aren’t) investing so much to pressure strangers to change?

There’s something very odd about it.

-=-As I am not transgender myself I won't continue the topic…-=-

But you expressed horror. You were horrified, about people you don’t know, about kids you’ve never seen, who weren’t specific children with actual issues. You expressed horror about an “if” statement..


-=-... I just know from those I know that hormone blockers and later therapies were very important to them. -=-

Were these unschooled kids?
At what age were “hormone blockers” begun?
How many people do you know?

If you can’t continue in the discussion because you’re not an unschooling parent or you don’t have any experience that will help them, that’s fine.
If you want to come back in to clarify whether you know things that can help, come on back.

Sandra

Vicki Dennis

Responses are interspersed.  If I were more techy I would put in a different color.

Vicki

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 9:45 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Sandra: Say this more plainly:

-=-80% of children who presented with dysphoria grew up to be okay in the bodies they were born into. They also grew up to be gay ;)-=-

What is “presented with dysphoria”? Sounds too clinical.


+++++++++++
Vicki:  It IS clinical.   These statistics come from those who "presented" to a clinic with or for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Usually (majority, not all)  those with a diagnosis of childhood gender dysphoria did grow up to be sexually oriented to those of the same biological sex.

I appreciate the previous posters who have written about their own childhood experience and trying to continue the same of recognizing that it is fine to have an extremely broad range of behaviours and presentations for any biological sex.    "Boys who wear glitter instead of girls with penises"  and "Girls who like construction rather than boys without penises".

++++++++++++++++++++++
Sandra: Were unhappy in their bodies? Wished to be other?


80% grew up to be at peace with their own bodies? and ALL of them were gay? That doesn’t sound right.

What about girls who were prevented from doing something they could have done if they were boys…. IF that still happens in the world today.



+++++

Vicki: Absolutely still happens.   Maybe with some different twists.   And not always as blatant as the 50s and 60s.  

SNIPPED

Sandra: When I would sit and wish I had been born a boy instead,


Vicki:  My opinion is that many children being "socially transitioned" (especially for females)  is not necessarily because the child wishes to have been born differently,.    In many ways we have stricter gender roles now than 50 years ago.   Parents and children are bombarded with ideas that if a child is outside rigid gender roles then they must be in the wrong sexual body.    I would like to see an acceptance of and support for children (and teens) exploring roles without being told they need to alter their body.    I have noticed in the past couple of decades a swing for teens that IF you are attracted physically or emotionally to someone outside acceptable boxes that the issue is a gender disconnect in one of you........that is preferable to being non-heterosexual.  AND more societally acceptable in the 21st century.

++++++++++++++++++++++


Sandra Dodd

-=-Growing breasts, developing facial hair and a beard, these are all things that can dramatically affect a child that is transgender. -=-

I think NOT growing breasts, never developing a beard, or operational testes, could have a much more dramatic affect on an adult whose friends had been involved in gender exploration when they were all kids, and who agreed to be a part of the group, and whose parents were assured that their only option was acceptance/assistance or Certain Suicide… but who was swept along by pressure and fear to abandon nature.

If there is a huge wave of kids being given a menu of problems and identities they might adopt, and being told “If you’re the Least BIT unhappy, we can tell you why, and can FIX it!” then let’s say that a third of those just got swept up in a movement, and will find later that natural maturation would’ve solved some of their discomfort. Growing up has never been comfortable and easy. “Growings pains” are real physical pains—joints can hurt, heads hurt, hormonal changes can hurt. Voices cracking and changing—that’s not comfortable, whether it’s natural or hormonally induced.

So if 100 kids had hormone therapy, and later 30 of them regret it, what will be said to them, by their parents? Their grandparents?
The gender identity counsellors won’t be apologizing, I’m sure. They will have taken their money and gone on.

But of 100 kids, I don’t think it’s 30 who will regret it. I think the number will be much higher. And in a family, with ONE child who is exploring the possibilities, it’s not a statistic. It’s an all, a whole, a life, a shared life.

Will there not be lawsuits, by people who discover at 30 that they would MUCH rather have been fertile and to have spent their youths on something other than a movement that made thousands unhappy, and destroyed relationships and families? Who will they sue? Where will they complain?

I think it’s more ethical to feel sympathy for those who might have been happier for life with changes, who CAN legally pay for hormones and surgery themselves when they’re 18, or 20, or 21 (depending on the laws where they live) than to chemically sterilize or to cut parts off of anyone who isn’t even old enough to get a tattoo.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- In many ways we have stricter gender roles now than 50 years ago. -=-

Please name some.

Sandra Dodd

-=- I have noticed in the past couple of decades a swing for teens that IF you are attracted physically or emotionally to someone outside acceptable boxes that the issue is a gender disconnect in one of you........that is preferable to being non-heterosexual. AND more societally acceptable in the 21st century. -=-

A couple of decades, really?

If there were biological markers to show that it was a chromosomal problem, yes, a couple of decades ago, right? Like a child born with some degree of hermaphrodism, or who could be shown scientifically to be “the wrong sex”?

When the sex change clinic to go to was in Trinidad, Colorado, for many years (1970’s, 80’s, before there were many other options), the director of that facility required their clients to have lived as the other gender for a year (not just dress up at night, but all the time, day and night, and at work) to make sure, and to have many hours with a psychologist, because they did NOT want to be cutting off something the person would would back later.

The current movement seems frenzied, and reckless, and it sounds like “THERE IS NO TIME TO WASTE, and it’s none of their parents’ business.”

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-When the sex change clinic to go to was in Trinidad, Colorado,…-=-

That was mostly male to female, the surgery, and subsequent hormone therapy.

Does anyone have any stats or accounts of what the current flow is? It seems most of what I’ve read and seen is about girls being persuaded they really want to be boys.
I wouldn’t mind being wrong, but if (as several critics point out) the knowledge and pressure are coming from internet discussions, is it that more girls are in social discussions?

If people are afraid to write in public, send something to me or Brie Jontry on the side and we can put it up anonymously.

Sandra

Vicki Dennis



On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-Growing breasts, developing facial hair and a beard, these are all things that can dramatically affect a child that is transgender. -=-

According to some of the things I’ve been reading, there are people who are saying that “gender identity” is something separate from biology, and separate from psychology.

+++++++++++++
 The dogma has moved past just being separate.   Now the line is that what was long considered biological sex follows gender identity.    Notice how many people born male but calling themselves women  now say "I am female".    It has even been codified in some interpretations of civil rights laws.(specifically Title IX).

I think that unschoolers who wish to be their childs advocate could adopt (or seek out) stories along the lines of the homosexual "It Gets Better" campaign.     Find mentors among adults who can identify with your child experiencing discordant interface with current societal norms because they did also. Could be mentors for both the child and the parent .    Offering which actions by their own parents or supporters helped them.     I think it also a good idea to seek out the people who regret doing chemical or even physical transitions as teens or early 20s.     Some are starting to create internet presence so that a tween seeking information (the world is different for the 2017 kids than for even 1980 kids) can find something other than "You need to transition as soon as possible to be happy".

vicki

Sandra Dodd

-=- I have noticed in the past couple of decades a swing for teens that IF you are attracted physically or emotionally to someone outside acceptable boxes that the issue is a gender disconnect in one of you........that is preferable to being non-heterosexual. AND more societally acceptable in the 21st century. -=-

So that’s social, too.

Some families have rligious or social or moral aversion to acceptance of homosexuality?
And so if so, they could accept a proven “error” or biological truth?

In the 1980’s there wa a lot of noise from gay activists saying there was NO SUCH THING as bi-sexuality, that people were either wholly and fully heterosexual, or absolutely and forever homosexual.
That never made sense to me at the time, and it seemed designed to control, to shame, and to solidify an us-and-them stance. But I’ve known lots of people who have had partners of both sexes, and functioned, and been happy. Yet there were people telling them that they had no right to be happy, that they were liars, and didn’t know their own minds or bodies.

I don’t think unschoolers should be doing that to each other, or to their own children, or to anyone.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- A person's gender identity isn't really anybody's business. -=-

Without the term “gender identity,” that whole piece of writing about choosing clothes and activities as one wishes, without pressure, is about living and being. Not about wishing not to be, not about lack or frustration.

It seems to me that the anonymous post Brie brought is describing the way anyone can and should live, with unschooling, and thousands do and have.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Here is that same video, on YouTube, with this note:

Uploaded on 7 Dec 2016
This powerpoint presentation outlines some concerns about the rush to affirm a young person's self-diagnosis as transgender, encouraging them down a road toward permanent, drastic medical intervention. There is no scientific basis to the notion of innate gender identity. We ought to try other, less invasive methods of supporting gender nonconforming youth before suggesting that they become life long medical patients.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpHgpqQefBA



The creator/speaker is Lisa Marchiano. You can read more about her here:
http://www.lisamarchiano.com

And what you can’t see there, which I found out yesterday and she’s said it’s fine for me to share here, is that she was once involved in unschooling and has already read lots fo my writing. I didn’t know about that connection, I just knew I liked her writings about this. And I’m glad there’s a video with graphs and numbers and faces and stories.

So as you listen to it, it might help to know that she understands unschooling, too. Not so distant.

I’m going to embed this on the page of transgender links and resources for unschoolers.

Sandra

brmino@...

----Say this more plainly:

-=-80% of children who presented with dysphoria grew up to be okay in the bodies they were born into. They also grew up to be gay ;)-=-

What is “presented with dysphoria”? Sounds too clinical.-------

Thanks, you're right.  Gender dysphoria = discomfort with their bodies. 

-----Were unhappy in their bodies? Wished to be other?-----

Yes, exactly - although, in some cases, "dysphoria" seems to be a knee-jerk diagnosis when a child "simply" likes opposite gender clothing or toys or displays opposite gender characteristics (like the boy who "runs like a girl" in the BBC documentary - in other words, the "stress" caused by one's gender is externally applied from those around them

Gender Identity Disorder (GID)/Gender Dysphoria (current DSM-5) are clinical diagnoses with these conventions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

----80% grew up to be at peace with their own bodies? and ALL of them were gay? That doesn’t sound right.----

One of the largest studies to date only looked at boys, and it found 12% of the kids persisted in wanting to change their gender while the rest stopped seeking medical treatment over the course of their adolescence. However, "63.6% of participants were classified as bisexual/ homosexual in fantasy and 47.2% participants were classified as bisexual/homosexual in behavior."


Two reviews of the literature that are helpful, if people are interested in what little data there is.

From the first link:

ABOUT THE CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS WITH GD/GV 
What We Know 

● The gender dysphoria of the majority of children with GD/GV does not persist into adolescence, and when it does not the children are referred to as “desisters.” 

● Prospective studies indicate that the majority of those who desist by or during adolescence grow up to be gay, not transgender, and that a smaller proportion grow up to be heterosexual. 

This is an older review of the literature:  

Gender Identity Disorders in Childhood and Adolescence: Currently Debated Concepts and Treatment Strategies


----What about girls who were prevented from doing something they could have done if they were boys…. IF that still happens in the world today. ---


Of course it still happens! It happens to boys, too! 


That's the problem with taking what someone looks like and believing that defines how they should feel, or what they should like to do, or be good at doing.


Brie



brmino@...

---Vicki:  My opinion is that many children being "socially transitioned" (especially for females)  is not necessarily because the child wishes to have been born differently,.    In many ways we have stricter gender roles now than 50 years ago.   Parents and children are bombarded with ideas that if a child is outside rigid gender roles then they must be in the wrong sexual body.    I would like to see an acceptance of and support for children (and teens) exploring roles without being told they need to alter their body. ---

YES! Exactly!

This is what I hope more and more families will talk about, focus on, be willing to get all messy with! And this is where, as unschooling parents, I'm really glad we're talking about this stuff openly

What does being (and, separately, "feeling" like) a boy/girl man/woman human mean?
What are the differences between sex and gender?

Maybe I'll make bumper stickers: fuck with gender roles, not your body

Brie

brmino@...


---Does anyone have any stats or accounts of what the current flow is?---

Yes - this is from one *pediatric* clinic in Canada:

1999–2005 
Males: 36 (67.9%)
Females:  17 (32.1%)

2006–2013
Males: 73 (36.1%)
Females: 129 (63.9%)


More breakdown of the numbers at various other clinics here: Why are more girls than boys presenting to gender clinics?