Can I afford Unschooling?
Saood Hashim
Hello members
While I have been on this group for quite some time now, I have frankly been just homeschooling traditionally (for the last one year).
My kids (daughter of 12 years and 7 years) were going to school with which we were not at all satisfied. I had heard about homeschooling but felt that while this was a better choice than schooling it was practically bringing school at home. Then I heard about unschooling last year and it inspired me and I intended to begin with unschooling with all the sort of liberty for the child. However, we have never been able to come out of traditional homeschooling. Yes we try to give as much liberty to our kids as possible, but there are certain things that we force them to do - like maths, grammar and history and I can see that they are not keen on learning it and it really troubles me.
The thing that forces us to not dispense with these subjects is because, in Pakistan, our child has to go through one of the few good universities where a minimum academic standard would be required and unless you are able to pass the tests of the schools and colleges (which can be given without attending school), you wont be able to enter the schools.
My other choice would be to let them enjoy and let them pursue their interests without any pressure from my side to spare some time for other so-called "important" areas. I really want to do this, but I feel I am bound by the system that I am living in and will have to accept it as a reality and my kids will be forced to learn the other "important" subjects.
One thing that I have thought to be a middle way, is to continue with my elder daughter in the traditional style (and she is sort of used to it) and give some liberty to the younger one so that she can pursue her interests fully and leave it to time to see how events unfold 5 years down the line.
I hope I have been able to pass the message across and would love to hear from you all.
Thank you and Regards
Saood
Sandra Dodd
First, a reminder about the purpose of this group from what was once easy to find and now is not as obvious (since Yahoogroups revamped their format):
________________
How and why does unschooling work? What kind of parents and parenting
does it take? What will help, and what will hinder?
This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling
and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based
on the principles underlying unschooling.
______________
This is brought to remind Saood in Pakistan that it’s not the purpose of the group to help people feel better about NOT unschooling. So anyone who wants to help answer those concerns is welcome to do so, but it would be best if the responses can be made with other readers in mind.
Culturally, as to the attitude toward university entrance and test scores, it might be good for you to join the discussion in India. There will be people there who have already been thinking about this, and some of whom (though perhaps not many) have kids who have reached late teens or early 20’s.
There’s this website that might help you with ideas and possibly contacts.
http://multiworldindia.org/taleemnet/
And this, which is based in anti-English-tradition—finding a different way to see things that were adopted from colonial days and contacts.
http://www.swaraj.org/shikshantar/
*IF* it is not an option for you to step away from the prescribed path to and through university, then unschooling will not be good for you and you shouldn’t even think about it. One aspect of unschooling (for some) is the luxury of being able to help our children in other ways. Some unschooled children have gone through universities—there are lots I know of with bachelors’ degrees and a few with masters’—but many have taken other routes.
There’s no guarantee, even with expensive schooling and daily pressure, of academic “success.” And what is called “academic success” has killed people, too—their souls, their minds, or their bodies. So perhaps taking the gloss off your idea of what universities can provide could help you, as a parent, emotionally.
I’ll take some phrases from what you wrote, and look at them in an unschooling light, in another post.
Sandra
________________
How and why does unschooling work? What kind of parents and parenting
does it take? What will help, and what will hinder?
This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling
and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based
on the principles underlying unschooling.
______________
This is brought to remind Saood in Pakistan that it’s not the purpose of the group to help people feel better about NOT unschooling. So anyone who wants to help answer those concerns is welcome to do so, but it would be best if the responses can be made with other readers in mind.
Culturally, as to the attitude toward university entrance and test scores, it might be good for you to join the discussion in India. There will be people there who have already been thinking about this, and some of whom (though perhaps not many) have kids who have reached late teens or early 20’s.
There’s this website that might help you with ideas and possibly contacts.
http://multiworldindia.org/taleemnet/
And this, which is based in anti-English-tradition—finding a different way to see things that were adopted from colonial days and contacts.
http://www.swaraj.org/shikshantar/
*IF* it is not an option for you to step away from the prescribed path to and through university, then unschooling will not be good for you and you shouldn’t even think about it. One aspect of unschooling (for some) is the luxury of being able to help our children in other ways. Some unschooled children have gone through universities—there are lots I know of with bachelors’ degrees and a few with masters’—but many have taken other routes.
There’s no guarantee, even with expensive schooling and daily pressure, of academic “success.” And what is called “academic success” has killed people, too—their souls, their minds, or their bodies. So perhaps taking the gloss off your idea of what universities can provide could help you, as a parent, emotionally.
I’ll take some phrases from what you wrote, and look at them in an unschooling light, in another post.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-However, we have never been able to come out of traditional homeschooling. Yes we try to give as much liberty to our kids as possible, but there are certain things that we force them to do - like maths, grammar and history and I can see that they are not keen on learning it and it really troubles me. -=-
You force them to do certain things, but you cannot force them to learn. Learning doesn’t come of force. Short-term memorization is the best you can hope for.
Second use of “force”:
-=-The thing that forces us to not dispense with these subjects is because, in Pakistan, our child has to go through one of the few good universities-=-
“Has to”? Is it law? Will you be put into prison if your child doesn’t go through one of the universities there?
Be very careful about using the phrase “has to,” or “have to.” It’s self limiting. “Self limiting” is putting it lightly. It’s more like crippling and disempowering yourself and your family to accept the idea of “have to” without REALLY CAREFULLY examining it, to the point that you can talk about it without “have to.”
Third use of “force,” with a side of “bound”:
-=-I feel I am bound by the system that I am living in and will have to accept it as a reality and my kids will be forced to learn the other "important" subjects.-=-
I don’t think you really believe that someone can “force” someone to learn something, do you?
And haven’t you thought about the side-effects of such “force” or “learning”? What will really be learned from it?
Don’t answer these questions in writing to this group. I don’t really want to discuss why someone would believe those things. We all know why. But consider the questions in your own heart.
Second “have to”:
-=--I feel I am bound by the system that I am living in and will have to accept it as a reality…-=-
If that reality is more important than experimenting with alternative education (and it very well might be), then don’t waste time thinking about unschooling. It might only fill you with regret.
I will leave some links here, anyway, to help with the negativity and the “have to.”
http://sandradodd.com/battle
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Sandra
You force them to do certain things, but you cannot force them to learn. Learning doesn’t come of force. Short-term memorization is the best you can hope for.
Second use of “force”:
-=-The thing that forces us to not dispense with these subjects is because, in Pakistan, our child has to go through one of the few good universities-=-
“Has to”? Is it law? Will you be put into prison if your child doesn’t go through one of the universities there?
Be very careful about using the phrase “has to,” or “have to.” It’s self limiting. “Self limiting” is putting it lightly. It’s more like crippling and disempowering yourself and your family to accept the idea of “have to” without REALLY CAREFULLY examining it, to the point that you can talk about it without “have to.”
Third use of “force,” with a side of “bound”:
-=-I feel I am bound by the system that I am living in and will have to accept it as a reality and my kids will be forced to learn the other "important" subjects.-=-
I don’t think you really believe that someone can “force” someone to learn something, do you?
And haven’t you thought about the side-effects of such “force” or “learning”? What will really be learned from it?
Don’t answer these questions in writing to this group. I don’t really want to discuss why someone would believe those things. We all know why. But consider the questions in your own heart.
Second “have to”:
-=--I feel I am bound by the system that I am living in and will have to accept it as a reality…-=-
If that reality is more important than experimenting with alternative education (and it very well might be), then don’t waste time thinking about unschooling. It might only fill you with regret.
I will leave some links here, anyway, to help with the negativity and the “have to.”
http://sandradodd.com/battle
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Sandra
sukaynalabboun@...
We live in Lebanon which also has two government tests ( French system) students must pass to enter university. I understand. I would also like to say, you have made several either/ or dichotomies in your letter, which may be limiting your options.
Why does the child *have* to go to Uni? Also, is it impossible to learn maths and grammar outside of curriculum ( yes- it is possible! Especially when they are internally motivated to learn for a good reason, like they want to go to uni and pass the test, or they find it fulfilling! My kids ask their Baba to make them trig or algebra problems to solve for fun,not everybody's thing, but it does happen- they enjoy it like a puzzle, they say 😊)
Unschooling is not about liberty or freedom, really. More about learning how to work together, to understand each other, to enjoy and flourish. Principles, not rules or black and white thinking guide our day to day lives. I know when and if they want to, I can partner with my girls to prepare and take the required steps to go to university, or any other goal they have in mind. That support and facilitating is the heart of what makes unschooling work.
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On Apr 24, 2016, at 3:38 PM, Saood Hashim saoodhashim@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello membersWhile I have been on this group for quite some time now, I have frankly been just homeschooling traditionally (for the last one year).My kids (daughter of 12 years and 7 years) were going to school with which we were not at all satisfied. I had heard about homeschooling but felt that while this was a better choice than schooling it was practically bringing school at home. Then I heard about unschooling last year and it inspired me and I intended to begin with unschooling with all the sort of liberty for the child. However, we have never been able to come out of traditional homeschooling. Yes we try to give as much liberty to our kids as possible, but there are certain things that we force them to do - like maths, grammar and history and I can see that they are not keen on learning it and it really troubles me.The thing that forces us to not dispense with these subjects is because, in Pakistan, our child has to go through one of the few good universities where a minimum academic standard would be required and unless you are able to pass the tests of the schools and colleges (which can be given without attending school), you wont be able to enter the schools.My other choice would be to let them enjoy and let them pursue their interests without any pressure from my side to spare some time for other so-called "important" areas. I really want to do this, but I feel I am bound by the system that I am living in and will have to accept it as a reality and my kids will be forced to learn the other "important" subjects.One thing that I have thought to be a middle way, is to continue with my elder daughter in the traditional style (and she is sort of used to it) and give some liberty to the younger one so that she can pursue her interests fully and leave it to time to see how events unfold 5 years down the line.I hope I have been able to pass the message across and would love to hear from you all.Thank you and RegardsSaood
Sandra Dodd
The original post in this thread had “force” three times and “have to” twice.
If unschooling can’t be a family’s priority, it will be difficult for them to become good, effective, at-peace unschoolers. I don’t say that to be mean or discouraging. I don’t say it to ask people to throw off other priorities. I mean not to try to pretend that unschooling can be one of several “priorities.”
Once, about health food and child’s happiness, a mom wrote:
-=-You seem to be saying that the two priorities are mutually exclusive.-=-
Well, yes! Priorities are never equal. That’s why they use the word “priority.”
If a person has five important beliefs/desires/intentions, they will NOT be equal. If there are only two, they will still not be equal. One MUST take precedence over the other, or there will be no clarity of thought and no basis for decisionmaking.
Prior means coming before. Either it was there first, or it’s of more importance. So when someone is trying to figure out whether unschooling can fit in with their prior ideas, “lifestyle,” cultural expectations, religion, diet, superstition, fears, phobias…. whatever that person might have, inside, that jumps up to argue with unschooling—it will be up to that person to sort through desires and realities and see what will work.
The Always Learning discussion isn’t intended for that purpose, but there are static pages now in the thousands that might help people think about these ideas, and to adopt some that can fit into nooks and crannies of what they feel trapped in by “have to.” There are also ideas there for stepping gradually out of the “have to,” for those who can and want to.
IT IS POSSIBLE (at a guess, for me) that the “have to” and pressure a Pakistani father feels about his daughters could have to do with marriage. If arranged marriage factors are part of this, few people in this group will be able to help, but there are some, Moslem from other parts of the world, and some in or from India who have experience with arranged marriages. I’ve heard that among educated families in India, the starting bid for a candidate for an arranged marriage to a doctor or engineer is that she have a Master’s Degree. That’s a Master’s Degree not to make money, not to work outside the home, but to beat out the other “applicants,” and to be a mother at home.
I’m not opposed to arranged marriages, honestly. They do better than high-school based pairings, it seems, where kids found each other in public school, beause they lived in the same district. Sheesh…
But in homeschooling in the United States, the arranged marriages are in the fundamentalist Christian school-at-home right-wing…. I’m getting off topic now! :-)
I’ll try to stir some assistance up in there from those quarters. Not the Bible-abusing southeastern U.S.—I mean the Asian/mid-Eastern group members, who might be busy with other things. :-)
Sandra
If unschooling can’t be a family’s priority, it will be difficult for them to become good, effective, at-peace unschoolers. I don’t say that to be mean or discouraging. I don’t say it to ask people to throw off other priorities. I mean not to try to pretend that unschooling can be one of several “priorities.”
Once, about health food and child’s happiness, a mom wrote:
-=-You seem to be saying that the two priorities are mutually exclusive.-=-
Well, yes! Priorities are never equal. That’s why they use the word “priority.”
If a person has five important beliefs/desires/intentions, they will NOT be equal. If there are only two, they will still not be equal. One MUST take precedence over the other, or there will be no clarity of thought and no basis for decisionmaking.
Prior means coming before. Either it was there first, or it’s of more importance. So when someone is trying to figure out whether unschooling can fit in with their prior ideas, “lifestyle,” cultural expectations, religion, diet, superstition, fears, phobias…. whatever that person might have, inside, that jumps up to argue with unschooling—it will be up to that person to sort through desires and realities and see what will work.
The Always Learning discussion isn’t intended for that purpose, but there are static pages now in the thousands that might help people think about these ideas, and to adopt some that can fit into nooks and crannies of what they feel trapped in by “have to.” There are also ideas there for stepping gradually out of the “have to,” for those who can and want to.
IT IS POSSIBLE (at a guess, for me) that the “have to” and pressure a Pakistani father feels about his daughters could have to do with marriage. If arranged marriage factors are part of this, few people in this group will be able to help, but there are some, Moslem from other parts of the world, and some in or from India who have experience with arranged marriages. I’ve heard that among educated families in India, the starting bid for a candidate for an arranged marriage to a doctor or engineer is that she have a Master’s Degree. That’s a Master’s Degree not to make money, not to work outside the home, but to beat out the other “applicants,” and to be a mother at home.
I’m not opposed to arranged marriages, honestly. They do better than high-school based pairings, it seems, where kids found each other in public school, beause they lived in the same district. Sheesh…
But in homeschooling in the United States, the arranged marriages are in the fundamentalist Christian school-at-home right-wing…. I’m getting off topic now! :-)
I’ll try to stir some assistance up in there from those quarters. Not the Bible-abusing southeastern U.S.—I mean the Asian/mid-Eastern group members, who might be busy with other things. :-)
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
I forgot to include the link to the page this came from:
________
-=-You seem to be saying that the two priorities are mutually exclusive.-=-
Well, yes! Priorities are never equal. That’s why they use the word “priority.”
________
A guessable link: http://sandradodd.com/priorities
Sandra
________
-=-You seem to be saying that the two priorities are mutually exclusive.-=-
Well, yes! Priorities are never equal. That’s why they use the word “priority.”
________
A guessable link: http://sandradodd.com/priorities
Sandra
[email protected]
Thank you Sandra for your rather comprehensive reply. I would like to touch upon a couple of matters but for this emal i would like to know what are some of those other routes apart from university that most unschooled students have taken? |
From: Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]>;
To: <[email protected]>;
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Can I afford Unschooling?
Sent: Sun, Apr 24, 2016 3:46:58 PM
|
First, a reminder about the purpose of this group from what was once easy to find and now is not as obvious (since Yahoogroups revamped their format): |
Sandra Dodd
I’m bringing this anonymously. I requested back-up help from people with more specialized experience.
_____________________________
I was about to write ( was still thinking ) to say for our Muslim family, my husband and I made several deliberate choices pertaining to cultural norms and our beliefs and our kids. One was that we would start from the " No compulsion in religion" clause, and show our kids what we thought were the best parts of religion, answering their questions thoughtfully.
There is **tremendous** cultural pressure to get PhD status (mostly for bragging over tea, as far as I can tell), and alot of marriageability is based on income, housing, education etc. I have many Pakistani, Iranian, and Iraqi friends.....and of course, I have been fine (since my kids were small) with being the weirdo who holds her baby too much, or talks to them too much etc etc. I am ok with being the mom who was unafraid of challenging (softly, firmly in my home and with my family) cultural norms.
We decided we cared most about a loving and strong trust-based relationship with our kids, so it follows that we trust them to select their own spouses, if they choose to marry. I am a graduate of a very good university, and I saw how little they expect of their PhD candidates, so for me, it is almost meaningless. I think if someone bases their interest in my daughter on the degree she paid for, then maybe the marriage is not going to have any real base.
If she is happy, enjoying her life and comfortable in her own skin, then I think she would make an excellent partner or mother, should she choose to do so. That is much more valuable, Islamically, than a degree in a formal setting. The refined and honorable character is far more important spiritually and materially; their inner peace and contentment is what matters for us, their quality as humans and Muslims is based on ekhlaq (character), not some degree.
Incidentally, this trust has paid off in having three girls who are modest, cover (hijab), pray and fast of their own accord. I trust them to create their own relationship with The Creator.
I also trust them to come to me for help, if they need it, on anything, and also, to decide for themselves how they would like to spend the days of their lives. So far, they are very unhappy about what types of subjects are on offer and do not want to travel, so they feel the university will not enrich their lives or help them to reach their goals. The eldest one is particularly unimpressed as she tutors and edits for her friends who attend the top school- the American University of Beirut; she is stunned by the low expectations. They know that when and if they need our help, in any way, if possible, we will be there for them.
Also, all the parental control in the Muslim or near Eastern Culture has usually resulted in super tense relations, often destroyed or severely damaged families, so I was not willing to go that route!
Sandra, you are welcome to use any or all of this as you see fit! I hope it is helpful in some way.
_____________________________
_____________________________
I was about to write ( was still thinking ) to say for our Muslim family, my husband and I made several deliberate choices pertaining to cultural norms and our beliefs and our kids. One was that we would start from the " No compulsion in religion" clause, and show our kids what we thought were the best parts of religion, answering their questions thoughtfully.
There is **tremendous** cultural pressure to get PhD status (mostly for bragging over tea, as far as I can tell), and alot of marriageability is based on income, housing, education etc. I have many Pakistani, Iranian, and Iraqi friends.....and of course, I have been fine (since my kids were small) with being the weirdo who holds her baby too much, or talks to them too much etc etc. I am ok with being the mom who was unafraid of challenging (softly, firmly in my home and with my family) cultural norms.
We decided we cared most about a loving and strong trust-based relationship with our kids, so it follows that we trust them to select their own spouses, if they choose to marry. I am a graduate of a very good university, and I saw how little they expect of their PhD candidates, so for me, it is almost meaningless. I think if someone bases their interest in my daughter on the degree she paid for, then maybe the marriage is not going to have any real base.
If she is happy, enjoying her life and comfortable in her own skin, then I think she would make an excellent partner or mother, should she choose to do so. That is much more valuable, Islamically, than a degree in a formal setting. The refined and honorable character is far more important spiritually and materially; their inner peace and contentment is what matters for us, their quality as humans and Muslims is based on ekhlaq (character), not some degree.
Incidentally, this trust has paid off in having three girls who are modest, cover (hijab), pray and fast of their own accord. I trust them to create their own relationship with The Creator.
I also trust them to come to me for help, if they need it, on anything, and also, to decide for themselves how they would like to spend the days of their lives. So far, they are very unhappy about what types of subjects are on offer and do not want to travel, so they feel the university will not enrich their lives or help them to reach their goals. The eldest one is particularly unimpressed as she tutors and edits for her friends who attend the top school- the American University of Beirut; she is stunned by the low expectations. They know that when and if they need our help, in any way, if possible, we will be there for them.
Also, all the parental control in the Muslim or near Eastern Culture has usually resulted in super tense relations, often destroyed or severely damaged families, so I was not willing to go that route!
Sandra, you are welcome to use any or all of this as you see fit! I hope it is helpful in some way.
_____________________________
Sandra Dodd
Another non-anon Muslim mom:
___________________
From what it seems from what I read, the family is not really unschooling.
And the dad seems very caught up in the cultural status quo.
Although I can understand in arranged marriage situations that the families of super educated boys would be looking for at least the same standard when looking for match able girls.
If there is some kind of test taking that can happen for his daughters to take to be admitted into post secondary education (assuming the girls want that) then if they fully embrace unschooling and see how learning can and does happen naturally it may be easier to study for an entrance exam 6 months before taking it rather then starting from now.
__________________
___________________
From what it seems from what I read, the family is not really unschooling.
And the dad seems very caught up in the cultural status quo.
Although I can understand in arranged marriage situations that the families of super educated boys would be looking for at least the same standard when looking for match able girls.
If there is some kind of test taking that can happen for his daughters to take to be admitted into post secondary education (assuming the girls want that) then if they fully embrace unschooling and see how learning can and does happen naturally it may be easier to study for an entrance exam 6 months before taking it rather then starting from now.
__________________
Sandra Dodd
From a mom in India:
___________
I have a friend a very close one.. A Kashmiri Muslim who completed her master's along with me. Finding her a groom turned out to be a nightmare since she was so highly qualified. Her father was insistent that the groom be higher qualified than her and she eventually married at the age of 28 much later than she would have wanted to to a person who had a PhD and was working in Europe.
Those years of trying to find a groom were extremely stressful for her.. She had wished her family were not rigid about the higher-than-her qualification requirement but apparently it's a complex dynamics of the fear of being treated worse because of the assumption that her being higher qualified would lead her to being looked upon as haughty in the event that she married someone not as qualified as her, yet the need for a well educated person to ensure that she be given Independence post marriage.
Let's just say that despite all the schooling the arranged marriage situation was not a cake walk for her or her groom:)
She has a daughter now and says that she would tell her daughter that marriage itself is optional, rather than go through a gruelling process of meeting repeated prospective grooms and trying to ascertain her "net worth".
I have other Muslim friends (to other muslims and non muslims) who married for love and did not worry about qualifications and have endured less agony over marraige prospects and continue to remain happily married.
____________________
___________
I have a friend a very close one.. A Kashmiri Muslim who completed her master's along with me. Finding her a groom turned out to be a nightmare since she was so highly qualified. Her father was insistent that the groom be higher qualified than her and she eventually married at the age of 28 much later than she would have wanted to to a person who had a PhD and was working in Europe.
Those years of trying to find a groom were extremely stressful for her.. She had wished her family were not rigid about the higher-than-her qualification requirement but apparently it's a complex dynamics of the fear of being treated worse because of the assumption that her being higher qualified would lead her to being looked upon as haughty in the event that she married someone not as qualified as her, yet the need for a well educated person to ensure that she be given Independence post marriage.
Let's just say that despite all the schooling the arranged marriage situation was not a cake walk for her or her groom:)
She has a daughter now and says that she would tell her daughter that marriage itself is optional, rather than go through a gruelling process of meeting repeated prospective grooms and trying to ascertain her "net worth".
I have other Muslim friends (to other muslims and non muslims) who married for love and did not worry about qualifications and have endured less agony over marraige prospects and continue to remain happily married.
____________________
Sandra Dodd
Elsewhere I wrote "Another non-anon Muslim mom:” which should have been another anon Muslim mom.
She was anonymous. :-) Sorry to fumble it.
And I’m grateful to those people with more knowledge of and experience of the dynamics that might be at play with the original question. And if I’ve guessed wrong about it being marriage-related, the ideas still might help, a bit.
As to alternatives, it depends entirely on the interests of the individuals. Different people move in different directions, when relieved of a currculum and prescribed path.
When my kids were younger, I thought (because of school and beause of laws) that at 18, the deal was over—the unschooling portion of their lives. The obligation to explain and defend to the school district or the state was over, but it didn’t mean they jumped up and left home, or went away to school.
My husband was “late” to graduate from college, as a school-kid. He was in and out of the university for eleven years before getting a cobbled-together degree in Computer Science with minors in math and theatre. He was 29, I think, when he graduated. I was 21 when I graduated, but by the time Keith (who’s a bit younger than I am) had a degree, at that point, stopped teaching.
So for our kids not to have degrees at 29 wouldn’t be a shock. :-) They might never have degrees, but they all have shown the ability to obtain and keep jobs, and to take good care of their money. They can do their own taxes (though Holly likes to do it with her dad). They’re happy, have hobbies, friends, and still get along well with us.
All around us we see dynamics in the families of friends and relatives—people we’ve known since they were young, or unborn—and many of their stories are NOT as good. Horrible student loan debt. Lack of communication, or honesty about what they’re doing and why. Unhappiness and frustration.
There are some good relationships, too, but none of them because of school or schooling.
I’ve seen parents help their unschooled teens and young adult offspring travel, obtain equipment for hobbies (cameras, music equipment, art equipment, ceramics set-ups), find mentors and opportuniities, or schools if they want them. I hope others here will have stories, too, but what I have not done, and never would, never will, is to start a data base of whose kids have done what. Stories come as they come. Unschoolers aren’t tested or traced or ‘researched’—not by me, not in the way some people would like to see it. There aren’t going to be statistics generated by or around me, about things like education or income. None of that is static. Their curves will not match mainstream graphs.
There is a family with a father from Iran, but not Muslim. He asked that his children get college degrees. It was particularly important to him. They did, but started in their mid teens taking classes in music and art and poetry-type things—low-pressure classes, for fun. By the time they were older, college classes and that environment weren’t mysterious or intimidating to them.
One had a PhD program laid out and a fellowship, but decided to stay near her family and work on a second master’s degree instead.
There are other interests and hobbies in that family, too—it’s not all academics. Everyone could make a living at things unrelated to those university degrees.
Maybe in my own family it’s easier and more relaxed for many reasons, but partly my “life’s goal” when I was young was to be a teacher. At 21, I “succeeded." At 27, I quit.
My husband wanted theatre, then to teach math, then to learn computers, and to be an engineer, and kept getting jobs and quitting school and going back to school. He was an engineer, but not until he was 30.
Probably everyone here could tell a story, or six, or friends or relatives who have fancy degrees and little money, or great debt, or misfortune, and a few stories of success for a while that dies out. And a few stories of great success until retirement. And probably everyone here knows someone (maybe more than one) who has no fancy education but who lives comfortably and happily anyway.
Sandra
She was anonymous. :-) Sorry to fumble it.
And I’m grateful to those people with more knowledge of and experience of the dynamics that might be at play with the original question. And if I’ve guessed wrong about it being marriage-related, the ideas still might help, a bit.
As to alternatives, it depends entirely on the interests of the individuals. Different people move in different directions, when relieved of a currculum and prescribed path.
When my kids were younger, I thought (because of school and beause of laws) that at 18, the deal was over—the unschooling portion of their lives. The obligation to explain and defend to the school district or the state was over, but it didn’t mean they jumped up and left home, or went away to school.
My husband was “late” to graduate from college, as a school-kid. He was in and out of the university for eleven years before getting a cobbled-together degree in Computer Science with minors in math and theatre. He was 29, I think, when he graduated. I was 21 when I graduated, but by the time Keith (who’s a bit younger than I am) had a degree, at that point, stopped teaching.
So for our kids not to have degrees at 29 wouldn’t be a shock. :-) They might never have degrees, but they all have shown the ability to obtain and keep jobs, and to take good care of their money. They can do their own taxes (though Holly likes to do it with her dad). They’re happy, have hobbies, friends, and still get along well with us.
All around us we see dynamics in the families of friends and relatives—people we’ve known since they were young, or unborn—and many of their stories are NOT as good. Horrible student loan debt. Lack of communication, or honesty about what they’re doing and why. Unhappiness and frustration.
There are some good relationships, too, but none of them because of school or schooling.
I’ve seen parents help their unschooled teens and young adult offspring travel, obtain equipment for hobbies (cameras, music equipment, art equipment, ceramics set-ups), find mentors and opportuniities, or schools if they want them. I hope others here will have stories, too, but what I have not done, and never would, never will, is to start a data base of whose kids have done what. Stories come as they come. Unschoolers aren’t tested or traced or ‘researched’—not by me, not in the way some people would like to see it. There aren’t going to be statistics generated by or around me, about things like education or income. None of that is static. Their curves will not match mainstream graphs.
There is a family with a father from Iran, but not Muslim. He asked that his children get college degrees. It was particularly important to him. They did, but started in their mid teens taking classes in music and art and poetry-type things—low-pressure classes, for fun. By the time they were older, college classes and that environment weren’t mysterious or intimidating to them.
One had a PhD program laid out and a fellowship, but decided to stay near her family and work on a second master’s degree instead.
There are other interests and hobbies in that family, too—it’s not all academics. Everyone could make a living at things unrelated to those university degrees.
Maybe in my own family it’s easier and more relaxed for many reasons, but partly my “life’s goal” when I was young was to be a teacher. At 21, I “succeeded." At 27, I quit.
My husband wanted theatre, then to teach math, then to learn computers, and to be an engineer, and kept getting jobs and quitting school and going back to school. He was an engineer, but not until he was 30.
Probably everyone here could tell a story, or six, or friends or relatives who have fancy degrees and little money, or great debt, or misfortune, and a few stories of success for a while that dies out. And a few stories of great success until retirement. And probably everyone here knows someone (maybe more than one) who has no fancy education but who lives comfortably and happily anyway.
Sandra
Saood Hashim
Thanks Sandra. Really appreciate your input.
After raising this query on this group, I came across a lady from Pakistan named Sadaf Farooqi. She too has moved from traditional homeschooling to unschooling. I thought the two blog post of hers on unschooling might add to the knowledge of the members regarding the similarities and differences of considerations when people from Pakistan think about moving to homeschooling and more specifically unschooling.
The two questions that I found very much related to the question at hand were these (in the part 2 of the blog post):
------------
Will you prepare your children to give exams?
We might, if the need arises.
My husband and I have diligently given many exams as youths. We were both very “پڑھاکو” as it is called in Urdu (meaning: studious bookworms).
Despite our cramming-for-exams-filled past, we both now think that examinations and grades are very over-rated, and that they in no way indicate, guarantee or harbinger a child’s future success in life as an adult, whether on a personal or professional level.
In particular, we have learned the hard way that making a child ace his school exams with high marks in no way means that he or she will be able to easily and successfully overcome practical challenges and problems later on in life, as an adult.
So yes, while he and I grudgingly acknowledge that a young person does need a degree to get their foot inside the corporate door (i.e. especially if they want to pursue a career as a yes-sir-uttering, on-a-short-leash ‘servant’ employee of a company, and not a self-employed entrepreneur), and in order to get that degree, they will have to pass exams, we will not beat up our children for ‘failing’ an examination or for not getting good grades, insha’Allah.
But you know what? I think that that might not happen, because I don’t think our children will be forced to sit exams that they do not want to give.
When a person studies for a subject that they love, they don’t have to be motivated to study for it’s exams, or pushed to get high grades. It is more or less a self-directed and self-motivated process fueled by inner passion and ambition.
And if our children’s current zeal for learning is in any way a sign, we think they’ll probably do okay, insha’Allah.
Will you put them into universities at age 18?
We might. We think that a basic undergraduate university degree is a necessity of life, sort of like a driver’s license, National ID card, or a passport. You need it to be considered worthwhile as an adult.
We don’t really want our children growing up with any sense of deprivation, or any kind of social stigma.
Wait a minute, did I just say ‘social’?
Why, yes of course, because a degree is more a status symbol nowadays, as well as a facilitator of marriage (into a specific social class), than a sign of credibility as a professional. And as I said, it helps get your foot into the door when/if you are looking for a job.
But does having a university degree (from a reputed institution) really translate to future professional success?
Just ask the 20-something, 30-something, or 40-something unemployed professional who has one Bachelors and two Masters degrees (one local, one from abroad) under his or her belt, yet hasn’t been able to land a job offer for over a year, who is wondering in frustration, with his head in his hands, where s/he went wrong.
------------
Would love to see yours as well as other members comments to the above.
Regards
Saood
From: "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 25 April 2016, 6:42
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Can I afford Unschooling?
Elsewhere I wrote "Another non-anon Muslim mom:” which should have been another anon Muslim mom.
She was anonymous. :-) Sorry to fumble it.
And I’m grateful to those people with more knowledge of and experience of the dynamics that might be at play with the original question. And if I’ve guessed wrong about it being marriage-related, the ideas still might help, a bit.
As to alternatives, it depends entirely on the interests of the individuals. Different people move in different directions, when relieved of a currculum and prescribed path.
When my kids were younger, I thought (because of school and beause of laws) that at 18, the deal was over—the unschooling portion of their lives. The obligation to explain and defend to the school district or the state was over, but it didn’t mean they jumped up and left home, or went away to school.
My husband was “late” to graduate from college, as a school-kid. He was in and out of the university for eleven years before getting a cobbled-together degree in Computer Science with minors in math and theatre. He was 29, I think, when he graduated. I was 21 when I graduated, but by the time Keith (who’s a bit younger than I am) had a degree, at that point, stopped teaching.
So for our kids not to have degrees at 29 wouldn’t be a shock. :-) They might never have degrees, but they all have shown the ability to obtain and keep jobs, and to take good care of their money. They can do their own taxes (though Holly likes to do it with her dad). They’re happy, have hobbies, friends, and still get along well with us.
All around us we see dynamics in the families of friends and relatives—people we’ve known since they were young, or unborn—and many of their stories are NOT as good. Horrible student loan debt. Lack of communication, or honesty about what they’re doing and why. Unhappiness and frustration.
There are some good relationships, too, but none of them because of school or schooling.
I’ve seen parents help their unschooled teens and young adult offspring travel, obtain equipment for hobbies (cameras, music equipment, art equipment, ceramics set-ups), find mentors and opportuniities, or schools if they want them. I hope others here will have stories, too, but what I have not done, and never would, never will, is to start a data base of whose kids have done what. Stories come as they come. Unschoolers aren’t tested or traced or ‘researched’—not by me, not in the way some people would like to see it. There aren’t going to be statistics generated by or around me, about things like education or income. None of that is static. Their curves will not match mainstream graphs.
There is a family with a father from Iran, but not Muslim. He asked that his children get college degrees. It was particularly important to him. They did, but started in their mid teens taking classes in music and art and poetry-type things—low-pressure classes, for fun. By the time they were older, college classes and that environment weren’t mysterious or intimidating to them.
One had a PhD program laid out and a fellowship, but decided to stay near her family and work on a second master’s degree instead.
There are other interests and hobbies in that family, too—it’s not all academics. Everyone could make a living at things unrelated to those university degrees.
Maybe in my own family it’s easier and more relaxed for many reasons, but partly my “life’s goal” when I was young was to be a teacher. At 21, I “succeeded." At 27, I quit.
My husband wanted theatre, then to teach math, then to learn computers, and to be an engineer, and kept getting jobs and quitting school and going back to school. He was an engineer, but not until he was 30.
Probably everyone here could tell a story, or six, or friends or relatives who have fancy degrees and little money, or great debt, or misfortune, and a few stories of success for a while that dies out. And a few stories of great success until retirement. And probably everyone here knows someone (maybe more than one) who has no fancy education but who lives comfortably and happily anyway.
Sandra
She was anonymous. :-) Sorry to fumble it.
And I’m grateful to those people with more knowledge of and experience of the dynamics that might be at play with the original question. And if I’ve guessed wrong about it being marriage-related, the ideas still might help, a bit.
As to alternatives, it depends entirely on the interests of the individuals. Different people move in different directions, when relieved of a currculum and prescribed path.
When my kids were younger, I thought (because of school and beause of laws) that at 18, the deal was over—the unschooling portion of their lives. The obligation to explain and defend to the school district or the state was over, but it didn’t mean they jumped up and left home, or went away to school.
My husband was “late” to graduate from college, as a school-kid. He was in and out of the university for eleven years before getting a cobbled-together degree in Computer Science with minors in math and theatre. He was 29, I think, when he graduated. I was 21 when I graduated, but by the time Keith (who’s a bit younger than I am) had a degree, at that point, stopped teaching.
So for our kids not to have degrees at 29 wouldn’t be a shock. :-) They might never have degrees, but they all have shown the ability to obtain and keep jobs, and to take good care of their money. They can do their own taxes (though Holly likes to do it with her dad). They’re happy, have hobbies, friends, and still get along well with us.
All around us we see dynamics in the families of friends and relatives—people we’ve known since they were young, or unborn—and many of their stories are NOT as good. Horrible student loan debt. Lack of communication, or honesty about what they’re doing and why. Unhappiness and frustration.
There are some good relationships, too, but none of them because of school or schooling.
I’ve seen parents help their unschooled teens and young adult offspring travel, obtain equipment for hobbies (cameras, music equipment, art equipment, ceramics set-ups), find mentors and opportuniities, or schools if they want them. I hope others here will have stories, too, but what I have not done, and never would, never will, is to start a data base of whose kids have done what. Stories come as they come. Unschoolers aren’t tested or traced or ‘researched’—not by me, not in the way some people would like to see it. There aren’t going to be statistics generated by or around me, about things like education or income. None of that is static. Their curves will not match mainstream graphs.
There is a family with a father from Iran, but not Muslim. He asked that his children get college degrees. It was particularly important to him. They did, but started in their mid teens taking classes in music and art and poetry-type things—low-pressure classes, for fun. By the time they were older, college classes and that environment weren’t mysterious or intimidating to them.
One had a PhD program laid out and a fellowship, but decided to stay near her family and work on a second master’s degree instead.
There are other interests and hobbies in that family, too—it’s not all academics. Everyone could make a living at things unrelated to those university degrees.
Maybe in my own family it’s easier and more relaxed for many reasons, but partly my “life’s goal” when I was young was to be a teacher. At 21, I “succeeded." At 27, I quit.
My husband wanted theatre, then to teach math, then to learn computers, and to be an engineer, and kept getting jobs and quitting school and going back to school. He was an engineer, but not until he was 30.
Probably everyone here could tell a story, or six, or friends or relatives who have fancy degrees and little money, or great debt, or misfortune, and a few stories of success for a while that dies out. And a few stories of great success until retirement. And probably everyone here knows someone (maybe more than one) who has no fancy education but who lives comfortably and happily anyway.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Quoting from an e-mail:
_______________________
I grew up within an Iranian ( non Muslim ) family in the a Middle East with extremely high expectations of going to University.
The Faith my family grew up with and lives with emphasises the importance of education equally for men and women. ( for women as they will be future mothers , influencing children by spending significant amount of time with their children)
Attending University was normal aspiration and expectation both within my family and within the culture in general.
Western style schooling, knowledge of English and French and further education was highly regarded, seen as necessary for both social reasons as well as career and financial opportunities.
"Good schooling" is also like a passport, often giving access to studying and working in the West.
With almost every single member of my direct family having studied at the American University in Beirut or later on abroad, there was immense pressure and expectation to simply do as others had done and continue onto that road.
Such a privilege and honour was not to be given up lightly.
I was seen as the odd one in my family " reverting back" with my ideas of parenting and not sending my children to school.
It was mind boggling to all for me to be on such a different path but learning to take one year at a time, reassuring particularly my parents that the options are there, gave some space , time to see how learning does happen while the years roll on!
Cultural pressure and expectations remain, but being confident with my choices, seeing how my children learn, knowing that there are options at various stages especially if they choose to attend college at some stage, putting my children's well being ahead of anything else, learning to acknowledge family concerns and reassure inquisitive family members have all become part of life.
__________________________
_______________________
I grew up within an Iranian ( non Muslim ) family in the a Middle East with extremely high expectations of going to University.
The Faith my family grew up with and lives with emphasises the importance of education equally for men and women. ( for women as they will be future mothers , influencing children by spending significant amount of time with their children)
Attending University was normal aspiration and expectation both within my family and within the culture in general.
Western style schooling, knowledge of English and French and further education was highly regarded, seen as necessary for both social reasons as well as career and financial opportunities.
"Good schooling" is also like a passport, often giving access to studying and working in the West.
With almost every single member of my direct family having studied at the American University in Beirut or later on abroad, there was immense pressure and expectation to simply do as others had done and continue onto that road.
Such a privilege and honour was not to be given up lightly.
I was seen as the odd one in my family " reverting back" with my ideas of parenting and not sending my children to school.
It was mind boggling to all for me to be on such a different path but learning to take one year at a time, reassuring particularly my parents that the options are there, gave some space , time to see how learning does happen while the years roll on!
Cultural pressure and expectations remain, but being confident with my choices, seeing how my children learn, knowing that there are options at various stages especially if they choose to attend college at some stage, putting my children's well being ahead of anything else, learning to acknowledge family concerns and reassure inquisitive family members have all become part of life.
__________________________
Sandra Dodd
I’m really enjoying gathering and sharing this input. It might not even be what the original poster needed, but I’m learning a lot of fascinating details of cultural differences.
________________________________
Another mom sent this for me to share:
________________________________
In the Indian context whether the girl is Muslim or not, it is true that a professional boy (orphan or not) would want a professional girl even if she's a teacher (not a doctor or an engineer herself) who just ends up being a housewife despite her post graduate qualification, in an arranged marriage.
It is extremely unlikely for a professional boy to consider settling down with a girl who has never been to school or has no educational degree if it's an arranged match.
While the parents can most definitely veto, the boy (however rarely) can still go against them if he so chooses.
The answer to your initial question of whether unschooled girls could still get married is that they definitely can, but most likely not in an arranged set up because families do tick off a basic check list on education, physical appearance, caste/subcaste, horoscope match (Hindu only) etc. before going any further to even meet or to get to know each other.
If a boy is looking for an arranged match through an online portal (quite popular these days) he would most likely filter out potential candidates not meeting certain basic criteria along these lines.
An exception here could be if the families already know each other well and they feel the girl irrespective of her educational background is well suited for the boy, the alliance might just work out.
__________________________________
Sandra note:
It seems to me that hiring someone to help make a match might be done from within the alternative-education movement—and there MUST be people who are social activist, creative types who would think having been unschooled was better than a degree.
ALSO… seems…. if the parents saved up what the university would have cost and sent it with the daughter, that might help. :-)
There was an article a few years ago about how much better financially it could be to save and invest the cost of education, and after 40 years or something, it was worth more that way than through the potential of earning more money.
But that doesn’t “win the race,” when families are wanting bragging rights about not just having a son who’s a doctor, but which specialty he has and which hospital hired him. I had a serious boyfriend, nearly four years, of an Indian family living in New Jersey. He was the middle of five, and oldest of three boys. His sisters did well. His younger brothers are medical specialists. He, though, is the family failure, for having gone into psychiatry and then adding ayurvedic medicine, while his brothers are doing heart and cancer treatment, or whatever. :-)
Jewish families in the U.S. can do the same thing, in terms of being ashamed of one child who isn’t up to the doctor-and-lawyer level of the rest of the family.
________________________________
Another mom sent this for me to share:
________________________________
In the Indian context whether the girl is Muslim or not, it is true that a professional boy (orphan or not) would want a professional girl even if she's a teacher (not a doctor or an engineer herself) who just ends up being a housewife despite her post graduate qualification, in an arranged marriage.
It is extremely unlikely for a professional boy to consider settling down with a girl who has never been to school or has no educational degree if it's an arranged match.
While the parents can most definitely veto, the boy (however rarely) can still go against them if he so chooses.
The answer to your initial question of whether unschooled girls could still get married is that they definitely can, but most likely not in an arranged set up because families do tick off a basic check list on education, physical appearance, caste/subcaste, horoscope match (Hindu only) etc. before going any further to even meet or to get to know each other.
If a boy is looking for an arranged match through an online portal (quite popular these days) he would most likely filter out potential candidates not meeting certain basic criteria along these lines.
An exception here could be if the families already know each other well and they feel the girl irrespective of her educational background is well suited for the boy, the alliance might just work out.
__________________________________
Sandra note:
It seems to me that hiring someone to help make a match might be done from within the alternative-education movement—and there MUST be people who are social activist, creative types who would think having been unschooled was better than a degree.
ALSO… seems…. if the parents saved up what the university would have cost and sent it with the daughter, that might help. :-)
There was an article a few years ago about how much better financially it could be to save and invest the cost of education, and after 40 years or something, it was worth more that way than through the potential of earning more money.
But that doesn’t “win the race,” when families are wanting bragging rights about not just having a son who’s a doctor, but which specialty he has and which hospital hired him. I had a serious boyfriend, nearly four years, of an Indian family living in New Jersey. He was the middle of five, and oldest of three boys. His sisters did well. His younger brothers are medical specialists. He, though, is the family failure, for having gone into psychiatry and then adding ayurvedic medicine, while his brothers are doing heart and cancer treatment, or whatever. :-)
Jewish families in the U.S. can do the same thing, in terms of being ashamed of one child who isn’t up to the doctor-and-lawyer level of the rest of the family.
Sandra Dodd
It’s interesting that the article mentioned “passport” and marriageability. So my guess wasn’t so far off, and one of the moms who sent me help for the discussion described it as being like a passport, too.
Certainly it’s easier to learn something someone’s interested in.
And to rephrase that, it’s impossible to learn something someone is NOT interested in, or is resistant to even considering. So force doesn’t help; force hurts.
Without options, people are powerless and trapped.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
This surprised me, in the context of the other writing:
-=-Will you put them into universities at age 18?
We might. -=-
“Put them into universities” sounds like “Put them into prison.”
Perhaps it’s a language difference. We’re used to “send them to university,” not “put them into” so maybe it’s just that difference. :-)
But being “put” or sent either one, by parents, is not going to flow easily from unschooling.
Sandra
Certainly it’s easier to learn something someone’s interested in.
And to rephrase that, it’s impossible to learn something someone is NOT interested in, or is resistant to even considering. So force doesn’t help; force hurts.
Without options, people are powerless and trapped.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
This surprised me, in the context of the other writing:
-=-Will you put them into universities at age 18?
We might. -=-
“Put them into universities” sounds like “Put them into prison.”
Perhaps it’s a language difference. We’re used to “send them to university,” not “put them into” so maybe it’s just that difference. :-)
But being “put” or sent either one, by parents, is not going to flow easily from unschooling.
Sandra
sukaynalabboun@...
I know of many people raised in the US, with graduate degrees and in good ivy league universities, who are haunted and have had their relationships poisoned by this competition. I am speaking about muslim families here, but it also exists for the more mainstream population. Parents who fight with kids, kids who resent parents and arranging meetings at every opportunity, being forced to study things they dislike for approval.....sounds toxic to me:-/
Several of these sweet, sweet young adults have decided to never marry, out of spite, and to prevent having a family like the one they grew up in. That is sad- to me- when something that is supposed to open doors ends up ruining the very essence of Life: family, friends, love, peaceful relationships.
The time for mandatory university degrees seems to be fading. Employers and younger people also seem to know that. I really like your idea about saving the tuition for something else, Sandra!
Several of these sweet, sweet young adults have decided to never marry, out of spite, and to prevent having a family like the one they grew up in. That is sad- to me- when something that is supposed to open doors ends up ruining the very essence of Life: family, friends, love, peaceful relationships.
The time for mandatory university degrees seems to be fading. Employers and younger people also seem to know that. I really like your idea about saving the tuition for something else, Sandra!
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I really like your idea about saving the tuition for something else, Sandra!-=-
Tuition, room and board, transportation, books…
AND the kids could have four or eight more years of employment history (or travel, instead).
In the U.S., that would be more money paid into retirement funds, and social security, which will make retirement easier later.
And in the sad case of student loans it would save all that horrible interest. Student loans are ruining lives, but that’s a whole ‘nother topic. Or maybe not.
WHY are higher degrees wanted? For more money? But doctors and lawyers are expected to live in bigger houses and drive better cars.
What if the parents just help the kids buy houses, now instead of in ten or fifteen years when the prices are higher?
What if the parents help the children be happy with less, and help them keep a car running by subsidizing repairs?
I think if it’s house and car the parents want kids to have, houses and cars can cost less than university educations.
I don’t know. I’m not a good measure, because I’m hippiesh and live in New Mexico where people can go to the theatre in jeans (the other night four of us went—Marty, the youngest, was wearing a nice shirt and slacks. I was wearing pants that look like a skirt and a top with lacey decorations. But my husband and brother in law were wearing jeans, and nobody looked or cared… so that’s a reason people can totally disregard my opinion if they want to).
If a child is a musician, the parents might do better to provide good instruments and equipment and space, rather than paying for university musical training the child might not want or need. If the child is an artist, a studio and supplies might be more useful than art school. Same with writing, film-making—get jobs that use those skills, or get jobs being around people who are doing those things.
It seems in many cultures (not all) that parents punish children who get jobs early by refusing to help them. But what if a family accepts a low-paying job, knowing it could lead to much more? I knew of a couple (relatives of relatives): She started as a stewardess at TWA in the 1940’s. He was a bellhop at a Hilton hotel, from the 1930’s. They didn’t know each other. Each got promotions, and in-house training, and ended up vice-presidents of their companies. When they were in their 50’s they met and married and at retirement, they could fly anywhere in the world on TWA for free, and stay in any Hilton hotel. :)
My son Kirby played games. Board games, video games, large in-person role-playing games.
He had a job in a gaming shop (table and board games, chess, collectible cards) from 14 to 18. He learned LOTS. He was trusted and respected by kids and their parents, and owners and customers. He was also taking karate classes, and was trusted to “house sit” the dojo and shop when the teacher was out of town. He taught children's beginning classes and was patient and creative.
At 20 he was offered a job with Blizzard entertainmet. He applied, but they had already decided to hire him, and he worked there for eight years. He could have stayed—they liked him—but he wanted to come back to New Mexico.
Nothing at any public school or any university would have helped him with any of those jobs. The preparation he had, and needed, for them, came because he had the time, options, interest, talent and experience with games and interpersonal relationships—dealing with people older and younger and different.
Sandra
Tuition, room and board, transportation, books…
AND the kids could have four or eight more years of employment history (or travel, instead).
In the U.S., that would be more money paid into retirement funds, and social security, which will make retirement easier later.
And in the sad case of student loans it would save all that horrible interest. Student loans are ruining lives, but that’s a whole ‘nother topic. Or maybe not.
WHY are higher degrees wanted? For more money? But doctors and lawyers are expected to live in bigger houses and drive better cars.
What if the parents just help the kids buy houses, now instead of in ten or fifteen years when the prices are higher?
What if the parents help the children be happy with less, and help them keep a car running by subsidizing repairs?
I think if it’s house and car the parents want kids to have, houses and cars can cost less than university educations.
I don’t know. I’m not a good measure, because I’m hippiesh and live in New Mexico where people can go to the theatre in jeans (the other night four of us went—Marty, the youngest, was wearing a nice shirt and slacks. I was wearing pants that look like a skirt and a top with lacey decorations. But my husband and brother in law were wearing jeans, and nobody looked or cared… so that’s a reason people can totally disregard my opinion if they want to).
If a child is a musician, the parents might do better to provide good instruments and equipment and space, rather than paying for university musical training the child might not want or need. If the child is an artist, a studio and supplies might be more useful than art school. Same with writing, film-making—get jobs that use those skills, or get jobs being around people who are doing those things.
It seems in many cultures (not all) that parents punish children who get jobs early by refusing to help them. But what if a family accepts a low-paying job, knowing it could lead to much more? I knew of a couple (relatives of relatives): She started as a stewardess at TWA in the 1940’s. He was a bellhop at a Hilton hotel, from the 1930’s. They didn’t know each other. Each got promotions, and in-house training, and ended up vice-presidents of their companies. When they were in their 50’s they met and married and at retirement, they could fly anywhere in the world on TWA for free, and stay in any Hilton hotel. :)
My son Kirby played games. Board games, video games, large in-person role-playing games.
He had a job in a gaming shop (table and board games, chess, collectible cards) from 14 to 18. He learned LOTS. He was trusted and respected by kids and their parents, and owners and customers. He was also taking karate classes, and was trusted to “house sit” the dojo and shop when the teacher was out of town. He taught children's beginning classes and was patient and creative.
At 20 he was offered a job with Blizzard entertainmet. He applied, but they had already decided to hire him, and he worked there for eight years. He could have stayed—they liked him—but he wanted to come back to New Mexico.
Nothing at any public school or any university would have helped him with any of those jobs. The preparation he had, and needed, for them, came because he had the time, options, interest, talent and experience with games and interpersonal relationships—dealing with people older and younger and different.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
A mom from India (not Muslim, not Hindu) wrote:
I would share Swaraj University website for plenty of examples of other routes apart from university that have been taken, and the list is growing:
• Swaraj University - Home
http://www.swarajuniversity.org/
Swaraj University is India's first university dedicated to regenerating local cultures , local economies and local ecologies.
I would share Swaraj University website for plenty of examples of other routes apart from university that have been taken, and the list is growing:
• Swaraj University - Home
http://www.swarajuniversity.org/
Swaraj University is India's first university dedicated to regenerating local cultures , local economies and local ecologies.
Sandra Dodd
From India:
________
The thing is that whatever part of the world you are in, unschooling means shifting from fear or 'have to, or...' to trust.
One doesn't have to go to university. There is sooo much work to be done in the world, and none of it requires degrees. Most of the work that require degrees are not important work at all. In fact those jobs and professions are poisoning the earth, water and air.
Having said that, if an unschooling child wishes to go to university, trust that they will have the ability to sit exams and apply for admission and then get accepted. And if they don't, then there is an interesting journey without, nevertheless 😄.
One of my three children learned to write at age 18 because he wanted to study for 'O' levels and learn to sit exams. He went from zero to grade 9 in six months, and just today, his facilitators told us he can clear two exams this coming November, and the next three in March '17. Complete surprise to me! One teacher asked me, "Are you happy with your son?" "I am always happy with my son!" I replied.
_____________
Sandra again:
I was thinking this, too:
Some families need to be brave enough to accept the risks of stepping away from the lit path.
It can help to remember the problems you’ve seen on the lit path, and not to glorify it.
Parents like to think they’re envisioning realistic requirements of the present, but WAY more often than not, they’re looking at what they and their parents *thought* was a “have to” from twenty years before. What none of us can look at is what will actually be in another ten, fifteen, or twenty years.
I came across this from Pam Sorooshian, on Just Add Light. I’ll link that post and the page the quote came from.
"Looking back, we can often see the path pretty clearly. But we can't look ahead and know what the path is going to be."
—Pam Sorooshian
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-path-behind.html
http://sandradodd.com/flitting
Sandra
________
The thing is that whatever part of the world you are in, unschooling means shifting from fear or 'have to, or...' to trust.
One doesn't have to go to university. There is sooo much work to be done in the world, and none of it requires degrees. Most of the work that require degrees are not important work at all. In fact those jobs and professions are poisoning the earth, water and air.
Having said that, if an unschooling child wishes to go to university, trust that they will have the ability to sit exams and apply for admission and then get accepted. And if they don't, then there is an interesting journey without, nevertheless 😄.
One of my three children learned to write at age 18 because he wanted to study for 'O' levels and learn to sit exams. He went from zero to grade 9 in six months, and just today, his facilitators told us he can clear two exams this coming November, and the next three in March '17. Complete surprise to me! One teacher asked me, "Are you happy with your son?" "I am always happy with my son!" I replied.
_____________
Sandra again:
I was thinking this, too:
Some families need to be brave enough to accept the risks of stepping away from the lit path.
It can help to remember the problems you’ve seen on the lit path, and not to glorify it.
Parents like to think they’re envisioning realistic requirements of the present, but WAY more often than not, they’re looking at what they and their parents *thought* was a “have to” from twenty years before. What none of us can look at is what will actually be in another ten, fifteen, or twenty years.
I came across this from Pam Sorooshian, on Just Add Light. I’ll link that post and the page the quote came from.
"Looking back, we can often see the path pretty clearly. But we can't look ahead and know what the path is going to be."
—Pam Sorooshian
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-path-behind.html
http://sandradodd.com/flitting
Sandra
sukaynalabboun@...
Thank you! This is what I was trying to get at....that leap, priorities, the similarities of what makes unschooling work are the same in NM, India, anywhere.
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On Apr 25, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
From India:
________
The thing is that whatever part of the world you are in, unschooling means shifting from fear or 'have to, or...' to trust.
One doesn't have to go to university. There is sooo much work to be done in the world, and none of it requires degrees. Most of the work that require degrees are not important work at all. In fact those jobs and professions are poisoning the earth, water and air.
Having said that, if an unschooling child wishes to go to university, trust that they will have the ability to sit exams and apply for admission and then get accepted. And if they don't, then there is an interesting journey without, nevertheless 😄.
One of my three children learned to write at age 18 because he wanted to study for 'O' levels and learn to sit exams. He went from zero to grade 9 in six months, and just today, his facilitators told us he can clear two exams this coming November, and the next three in March '17. Complete surprise to me! One teacher asked me, "Are you happy with your son?" "I am always happy with my son!" I replied.
_____________
Sandra again:
I was thinking this, too:
Some families need to be brave enough to accept the risks of stepping away from the lit path.
It can help to remember the problems you’ve seen on the lit path, and not to glorify it.
Parents like to think they’re envisioning realistic requirements of the present, but WAY more often than not, they’re looking at what they and their parents *thought* was a “have to” from twenty years before. What none of us can look at is what will actually be in another ten, fifteen, or twenty years.
I came across this from Pam Sorooshian, on Just Add Light. I’ll link that post and the page the quote came from.
"Looking back, we can often see the path pretty clearly. But we can't look ahead and know what the path is going to be."
—Pam Sorooshian
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-path-behind.html
http://sandradodd.com/flitting
Sandra
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Posted by: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
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jenstarc4
"i would like to know what are some of those other routes apart from university that most unschooled students have taken?" At the core of unschooling vs schooling is the difference between how we view people. In school, and being college bound is part of this, children are a product. The end result is a finished product. Unschooling is more about process. That's kind of simplistic. How that works in practice is where unschooling lives in people's homes and hearts. If we value the process, and schools pay lip service to this idea without really doing it, we allow for children to discover things without being attached to the outcome. If an unschooled kid decides they want a specific outcome, then college can be a great way to get that. College can be a part of a process. The vast majority of people I know who go to college, don't think of college as a part of the process. It's just a step to being that finished product, adulthood, hireable, a giant stamp of approval (a degree) stating that this person has reached a certain level of knowledge and skill. Without that, and I get why this is hard, how exactly can young adults ever be successful and independent? And that's the conversation that should be happening all around us, even for schooled kids. All these years of supporting kids as they've been interested in this or that, has led to jobs and ideas for adulthood, outside of college. If one of my kids decided that they needed a degree for something specific that requires one, then just like all other processes they've gone through, they'll do that. Until that point, they can continue doing things they love and are interested in and continue to gain knowledge and mastery in those things in the same ways as they always have, by immersing themselves in it. |
-------- Original message --------
From: "'saoodhashim@...' saoodhashim@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
Date: 04/24/2016 11:52 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Can I afford Unschooling?
Saood Hashim
---Quote--
The vast majority of people I know who go to college, don't think of college as a part of the process. It's just a step to being that finished product, adulthood, hireable, a giant stamp of approval (a degree) stating that this person has reached a certain level of knowledge and skill.
The vast majority of people I know who go to college, don't think of college as a part of the process. It's just a step to being that finished product, adulthood, hireable, a giant stamp of approval (a degree) stating that this person has reached a certain level of knowledge and skill.
--Unquote---
Thanks for that. Sometimes you are looking for words to clear up some confusions. While I did understand earlier your words have further helped strengthen my understanding of unschooling and college.
Coming back to why I asked about the other routes apart from college what really caught my attention (in Sandra's earlier email) was "that MOST unschooled students that she knows have not taken the college route". Previously (and still) I feel is that most will take the college route and only some of them will take the other routes. Perhaps this is because I live in Pakistan and in our side of the world, opportunities for creativity as well as value for creativity is limited and therefore when unschooled kids evaluate their interest and how they can further it, their choices at hand will move them to take the college route rather than that other route to further their interests. This might not be true in the West because of the underlying circumstances of the place.
One more reason why I feel that the college route may be the most opted for route is - well let me explain this with a discussion with one of my office colleague whom I asked a question. Culturally in our part of the world, while we do have women working in the corporate environment, generally their responsibility in a family setting is to be looking after the matters related to inside the home. Keeping this cultural reality in mind, here is the dialogue that took place between me and my colleague:
One more reason why I feel that the college route may be the most opted for route is - well let me explain this with a discussion with one of my office colleague whom I asked a question. Culturally in our part of the world, while we do have women working in the corporate environment, generally their responsibility in a family setting is to be looking after the matters related to inside the home. Keeping this cultural reality in mind, here is the dialogue that took place between me and my colleague:
My Question: Why do you think that a degree is required, especially for a girl in our society, when it is not expected of her to be taking care of the financial needs of the house?
His Answer: I think the girls should be educated.
My Question: I never said we should not educate them. Why are you equating degree with education?
His Answer: O! It seems I too have ingrained the subconscious belief that education and degree go hand in hand. Any ways, I still feel that she should have a degree because no one knows about tomorrow. If circumstances require her to take up a job (for eg. after the death of the husband/father/bread winner), her degree will be required (of course it wont be the only requirement, but an important one among the many other requirements).
If this is how it is felt for women's degrees, who are not at all expected to be looking after the financial needs of a family, you can make up what would be going in the head of a unschooled male young adult when he is thinking of the available routes.
As a side note, one of our statistic about schools is that girls are better performer than boys. Among the top 10 positions in many schools, you would very likely and consistently find 7 to 8 girls. Perhaps this is because our society does not "judge" them on their academic performance whereas boys are judged on the school performance and this is actually negatively impacting their attitude towards studies. Looks like I am straying off topic......Sorry for that.
Speaking of the other routes, the one thing that I can think of which may not require going through the college / university route is doing your own business - a small scale one requiring less startup funds. However, not everyone is courageous enough to start their own business venture especially when you have very less to lose. The risk is high. While a person can after failing in his own business endeavor can continue with the college route with a break, but still he would feel about the lost time.
Keeping aside everything above, I would be really interested to know examples of the other routes that most unschooled kids you know of have taken. I am interested in this information because of multiple reasons:
a. As information about the opportunities out there in your part of the world.
b. As one more reason among the many reasons for me to opt the unschool path.
c. Like I said at the beginning of this email, sometimes words go a long way in lighting up the path. Perhaps these "non-college route" stories may just provide us with that visibility.
d. Just out of my natural innate curiosity.
Thanks and regards
Saood
From: "jenstarc4 jenstarc4@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: "'saoodhashim@...' saoodhashim@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, 25 April 2016, 22:25
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Can I afford Unschooling?
"i would like to know what are some of those other routes apart from university that most unschooled students have taken?" At the core of unschooling vs schooling is the difference between how we view people. In school, and being college bound is part of this, children are a product. The end result is a finished product. Unschooling is more about process. That's kind of simplistic. How that works in practice is where unschooling lives in people's homes and hearts. If we value the process, and schools pay lip service to this idea without really doing it, we allow for children to discover things without being attached to the outcome. If an unschooled kid decides they want a specific outcome, then college can be a great way to get that. College can be a part of a process. The vast majority of people I know who go to college, don't think of college as a part of the process. It's just a step to being that finished product, adulthood, hireable, a giant stamp of approval (a degree) stating that this person has reached a certain level of knowledge and skill. Without that, and I get why this is hard, how exactly can young adults ever be successful and independent? And that's the conversation that should be happening all around us, even for schooled kids. All these years of supporting kids as they've been interested in this or that, has led to jobs and ideas for adulthood, outside of college. If one of my kids decided that they needed a degree for something specific that requires one, then just like all other processes they've gone through, they'll do that. Until that point, they can continue doing things they love and are interested in and continue to gain knowledge and mastery in those things in the same ways as they always have, by immersing themselves in it. |
-------- Original message --------
From: "'saoodhashim@...' saoodhashim@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
Date: 04/24/2016 11:52 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Can I afford Unschooling?
Sandra Dodd
-=- what really caught my attention (in Sandra's earlier email) was "that MOST unschooled students that she knows have not taken the college route". -=-
Saood quoted me (above) and continued:
-=-Previously (and still) I feel is that most will take the college route and only some of them will take the other routes. -=-
I’m talking about most of real unschoolers who are now aduts. I’m not guessing.
But the second statement is based only on guessing.
-=-Perhaps this is because I live in Pakistan and in our side of the world, opportunities for creativity as well as value for creativity is limited and therefore when unschooled kids evaluate their interest and how they can further it, their choices at hand will move them to take the college route rather than that other route to further their interests. -=-
Opportunities for creativity aren’t available to kids in school, but unschoolers would not BE kids in school. The value of creativity would need to change in the minds of the parents, so that it would be able to open up and blossom.
Unschooled kids don’t need to "evaluate their interest and how they can further it.” This is a schoolish view of what unschooling might possibly be like. But the purpose of this discussion is to help people see how different real unscholing is from what a schoolbound mind can guess at.
The questions and comments in this post are NOT about living differently in the moment, exploring the world. They’re about staying on track with school’s schedules and expectations.
IF school and schooling are the goal, forget unschooling.
If unschooing is the goal, forget school and school’s schedule.
-=-One more reason why I feel that the college route may be the most opted for route is - well let me explain this with a discussion with one of my office colleague whom I asked a question. -=-
Before I even read the rest of that I’m going to say this: Unless your office colleague is an unschooling parent with more experience than people in this discussion have, then why look there? If you want justification for an insistence on school, stay with and within school-supporting groups.
Sandra
Saood quoted me (above) and continued:
-=-Previously (and still) I feel is that most will take the college route and only some of them will take the other routes. -=-
I’m talking about most of real unschoolers who are now aduts. I’m not guessing.
But the second statement is based only on guessing.
-=-Perhaps this is because I live in Pakistan and in our side of the world, opportunities for creativity as well as value for creativity is limited and therefore when unschooled kids evaluate their interest and how they can further it, their choices at hand will move them to take the college route rather than that other route to further their interests. -=-
Opportunities for creativity aren’t available to kids in school, but unschoolers would not BE kids in school. The value of creativity would need to change in the minds of the parents, so that it would be able to open up and blossom.
Unschooled kids don’t need to "evaluate their interest and how they can further it.” This is a schoolish view of what unschooling might possibly be like. But the purpose of this discussion is to help people see how different real unscholing is from what a schoolbound mind can guess at.
The questions and comments in this post are NOT about living differently in the moment, exploring the world. They’re about staying on track with school’s schedules and expectations.
IF school and schooling are the goal, forget unschooling.
If unschooing is the goal, forget school and school’s schedule.
-=-One more reason why I feel that the college route may be the most opted for route is - well let me explain this with a discussion with one of my office colleague whom I asked a question. -=-
Before I even read the rest of that I’m going to say this: Unless your office colleague is an unschooling parent with more experience than people in this discussion have, then why look there? If you want justification for an insistence on school, stay with and within school-supporting groups.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-If this is how it is felt for women's degrees, who are not at all expected to be looking after the financial needs of a family, you can make up what would be going in the head of a unschooled male young adult when he is thinking of the available routes. -=-
“It is felt” refers vaguely to the co-worker and others who know nothing about unschooling?
Let’s not fill Always Learning up with the whole world outside of it. This group should be a place where the topic is always radical unschooling. The rest of it is out there, one click away.
-=-you can make up what would be going in the head of a unschooled male young adult-=-
No, you can’t.
Yes, you can, but you would be wrong.
If you’re so sure that you can predict what people will feel and think and want, then unschooling isn’t likely to work at all.
People (parents) must change before they can relax enough to see natural learning all around them. It’s easier NOT to see it and NOT to change than it is to do the work it takes to get there. It can’t be installed from outside. It must be gradually developed inside, over time, because of desire and review of what one already thinks and “knows” and what else might be even more important, if the goals are different.
http://sandradodd.com/change.html
-=-doing your own business - a small scale one requiring less startup funds. However, not everyone is courageous enough to start their own business venture especially when you have very less to lose. The risk is high. -=-
School is risky. School ranks people from best to worst. More people fail than succeed.
Many are certified, with low grades and scores, to be failures. They have it on paper.
Unschoolers don’t get that. They can be competent at what they do if they’re not competing in such a narrow channel. And some school-desiring people can make better scores with those gone who might’ve made some top scores if all the unschoolers WERE in there.
But though some of the unschoolers would have been “top of the class” (and some become so, if they got an academic route), others might not have and yet will not be failures.
Sandra
“It is felt” refers vaguely to the co-worker and others who know nothing about unschooling?
Let’s not fill Always Learning up with the whole world outside of it. This group should be a place where the topic is always radical unschooling. The rest of it is out there, one click away.
-=-you can make up what would be going in the head of a unschooled male young adult-=-
No, you can’t.
Yes, you can, but you would be wrong.
If you’re so sure that you can predict what people will feel and think and want, then unschooling isn’t likely to work at all.
People (parents) must change before they can relax enough to see natural learning all around them. It’s easier NOT to see it and NOT to change than it is to do the work it takes to get there. It can’t be installed from outside. It must be gradually developed inside, over time, because of desire and review of what one already thinks and “knows” and what else might be even more important, if the goals are different.
http://sandradodd.com/change.html
-=-doing your own business - a small scale one requiring less startup funds. However, not everyone is courageous enough to start their own business venture especially when you have very less to lose. The risk is high. -=-
School is risky. School ranks people from best to worst. More people fail than succeed.
Many are certified, with low grades and scores, to be failures. They have it on paper.
Unschoolers don’t get that. They can be competent at what they do if they’re not competing in such a narrow channel. And some school-desiring people can make better scores with those gone who might’ve made some top scores if all the unschoolers WERE in there.
But though some of the unschoolers would have been “top of the class” (and some become so, if they got an academic route), others might not have and yet will not be failures.
Sandra
Saood Hashim
I dont know but I am sensing that I am being seen as a promoter of schooling over here instead of a person who is genuinely looking for answers to some of his valid questions. Yes, they may sound like a very immature but then that what unschooling is all about. At the moment, I feel I am like a kid who is genuinely seeking answers for questions that come up in a childs mind. But I am being made to feel that you are not allowed to ask questions - sounds very schoolish and very unlike unschoolish.
Looks like I will have to stop asking questions....
From: "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 26 April 2016, 20:03
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Can I afford Unschooling?
-=-If this is how it is felt for women's degrees, who are not at all expected to be looking after the financial needs of a family, you can make up what would be going in the head of a unschooled male young adult when he is thinking of the available routes. -=-
“It is felt” refers vaguely to the co-worker and others who know nothing about unschooling?
Let’s not fill Always Learning up with the whole world outside of it. This group should be a place where the topic is always radical unschooling. The rest of it is out there, one click away.
-=-you can make up what would be going in the head of a unschooled male young adult-=-
No, you can’t.
Yes, you can, but you would be wrong.
If you’re so sure that you can predict what people will feel and think and want, then unschooling isn’t likely to work at all.
People (parents) must change before they can relax enough to see natural learning all around them. It’s easier NOT to see it and NOT to change than it is to do the work it takes to get there. It can’t be installed from outside. It must be gradually developed inside, over time, because of desire and review of what one already thinks and “knows” and what else might be even more important, if the goals are different.
http://sandradodd.com/change.html
-=-doing your own business - a small scale one requiring less startup funds. However, not everyone is courageous enough to start their own business venture especially when you have very less to lose. The risk is high. -=-
School is risky. School ranks people from best to worst. More people fail than succeed.
Many are certified, with low grades and scores, to be failures. They have it on paper.
Unschoolers don’t get that. They can be competent at what they do if they’re not competing in such a narrow channel. And some school-desiring people can make better scores with those gone who might’ve made some top scores if all the unschoolers WERE in there.
But though some of the unschoolers would have been “top of the class” (and some become so, if they got an academic route), others might not have and yet will not be failures.
Sandra
“It is felt” refers vaguely to the co-worker and others who know nothing about unschooling?
Let’s not fill Always Learning up with the whole world outside of it. This group should be a place where the topic is always radical unschooling. The rest of it is out there, one click away.
-=-you can make up what would be going in the head of a unschooled male young adult-=-
No, you can’t.
Yes, you can, but you would be wrong.
If you’re so sure that you can predict what people will feel and think and want, then unschooling isn’t likely to work at all.
People (parents) must change before they can relax enough to see natural learning all around them. It’s easier NOT to see it and NOT to change than it is to do the work it takes to get there. It can’t be installed from outside. It must be gradually developed inside, over time, because of desire and review of what one already thinks and “knows” and what else might be even more important, if the goals are different.
http://sandradodd.com/change.html
-=-doing your own business - a small scale one requiring less startup funds. However, not everyone is courageous enough to start their own business venture especially when you have very less to lose. The risk is high. -=-
School is risky. School ranks people from best to worst. More people fail than succeed.
Many are certified, with low grades and scores, to be failures. They have it on paper.
Unschoolers don’t get that. They can be competent at what they do if they’re not competing in such a narrow channel. And some school-desiring people can make better scores with those gone who might’ve made some top scores if all the unschoolers WERE in there.
But though some of the unschoolers would have been “top of the class” (and some become so, if they got an academic route), others might not have and yet will not be failures.
Sandra
Tara Mara
This film, Schooling the World, by Carol Black keeps coming to my mind as I read these posts. Perhaps others will find it useful to understand the intended and unintended effects of Schooling the World in a European model.
Here is a link to Carol's webpage where the film can be viewed.
Warmest Regards,
Tara Mara
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 26, 2016, at 11:03 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-If this is how it is felt for women's degrees, who are not at all expected to be looking after the financial needs of a family, you can make up what would be going in the head of a unschooled male young adult when he is thinking of the available routes. -=-
“It is felt” refers vaguely to the co-worker and others who know nothing about unschooling?
Let’s not fill Always Learning up with the whole world outside of it. This group should be a place where the topic is always radical unschooling. The rest of it is out there, one click away.
-=-you can make up what would be going in the head of a unschooled male young adult-=-
No, you can’t.
Yes, you can, but you would be wrong.
If you’re so sure that you can predict what people will feel and think and want, then unschooling isn’t likely to work at all.
People (parents) must change before they can relax enough to see natural learning all around them. It’s easier NOT to see it and NOT to change than it is to do the work it takes to get there. It can’t be installed from outside. It must be gradually developed inside, over time, because of desire and review of what one already thinks and “knows” and what else might be even more important, if the goals are different.
http://sandradodd.com/change.html
-=-doing your own business - a small scale one requiring less startup funds. However, not everyone is courageous enough to start their own business venture especially when you have very less to lose. The risk is high. -=-
School is risky. School ranks people from best to worst. More people fail than succeed.
Many are certified, with low grades and scores, to be failures. They have it on paper.
Unschoolers don’t get that. They can be competent at what they do if they’re not competing in such a narrow channel. And some school-desiring people can make better scores with those gone who might’ve made some top scores if all the unschoolers WERE in there.
But though some of the unschoolers would have been “top of the class” (and some become so, if they got an academic route), others might not have and yet will not be failures.
Sandra
sukaynalabboun@...
I dont know but I am sensing that I am being seen as a promoter of schooling over here instead of a person who is genuinely looking for answers to some of his valid questions. Yes, they may sound like a very immature but then that what unschooling is all about. At the moment, I feel I am like a kid who is genuinely seeking answers for questions that come up in a childs mind. But I am being made to feel that you are not allowed to ask questions - sounds very schoolish and very unlike unschoolish.Looks like I will have to stop asking questions....
No, Agha. But the groups guidelines or parameters clearly state what is / is not to be posted. I thought Sandra and others had let this go *way* off topic, in the interest of trying to answer your questions.
These are not questions everyone else has, everywhere. The answers given were applicable across the board- and it seems like you keep wanting us to coach you or "sell" you unschooling, as opposed to telling you what **helps** or ** hinders** radical unschooling.
No one here has any obligation to offer examples, answer questions, or try to convince you to join our team. That is not very unschooley :-)
All of us have made a choice, after careful analysis, to unschool and in many cases, question what our culture says is 'normal' or 'expected'. It seems like you are waiting for us to tell you Pakistan is different, therefore keep homeschooling but you can call it unschooling, or that somehow it just cannot work where you are, so you are absolved.
Sandra said it happens inside of you, your family. There is not any static formula to follow, but rather ideas about what makes it harder to achieve peace, joy, flow. We cannot give one to one instructions; we do not know your children; we are not teachers.
I wish your family the best and this is meant as kindly as possible.
Sandra Dodd
-=-the intended and unintended effects of Schooling the World in a European model. -=-
That film is great. Disturbing, and I think of it sometimes unexpectedly. It connects to very many things.
I second the recommendation, for anyone who could handle a bit of anthropology, geography, history and emotional discomfort. Don’t watch it if you’re fragile this month or have a politics-overloaded brain right now.
Thanks, Tara Mara, for bringing that.
http://carolblack.org/schooling-the-world/
Sandra
That film is great. Disturbing, and I think of it sometimes unexpectedly. It connects to very many things.
I second the recommendation, for anyone who could handle a bit of anthropology, geography, history and emotional discomfort. Don’t watch it if you’re fragile this month or have a politics-overloaded brain right now.
Thanks, Tara Mara, for bringing that.
http://carolblack.org/schooling-the-world/
Sandra
cheri.tilford@...
>>But I am being made to feel that you are not allowed to ask questions<<
one thing I've noticed about people's responses in this group is that the point at which you voice your discomfort about the responses given to your question is exactly the point at which you should stop talking, stop posting, and examine what's going on internally. what are the thoughts and feelings you're having and where are they coming from? whose storyline are you following, or attempting to follow?
no one can be "made to feel" anything. ever. unschooling involves examining the words you use in thought, speech, and writing. words help create reality. what is the world you've created for yourself by giving other people the power to "make you feel" something? what are your children possibly learning by such an example? those questions are not meant to be offensive, and they're not meant to be answered.
in my opinion, unschooling as a parent involves noticing what we are responsible for and being conscious about what that means to our children. we can choose to allow our culture to dictate our lives - we all do this to varying degrees in different aspects of our lives. but don't blame outside forces for choices you make.
choosing school means many things will happen in the life of a child and family, some of them predictably harmful and destructive to creativity and relationships, among other things. choosing to live without school is less predictable, leaving the world open and uncharted, which makes some people so uncomfortable they can't or won't do it.
be responsible for your own thoughts and feelings, and notice when your thoughts are borrowed.
read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
truly words of wisdom.
cheers,
cheri
sukaynalabboun@...
Thank you for the suggestion. My oldest and I watched it, and she spent the rest of the day refining her baking skills ( a loaf of bread and cinnamon rolls from scratch) because she felt she wanted to work on regaining some self-subsistence skills. A huge discussion about what she remembers from being at school, here in the third world, as well as the legacy of colonization. Sadness and also gratitude. Very thought provoking, tonnes of connections!
On Apr 27, 2016, at 1:36 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-the intended and unintended effects of Schooling the World in a European model. -=-
That film is great. Disturbing, and I think of it sometimes unexpectedly. It connects to very many things.
I second the recommendation, for anyone who could handle a bit of anthropology, geography, history and emotional discomfort. Don’t watch it if you’re fragile this month or have a politics-overloaded brain right now.
Thanks, Tara Mara, for bringing that.
http://carolblack.org/schooling-the-world/
Sandra
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Posted by: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
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