Siblings & hitting
lizzylynn27@...
Looking for some advice in regards to siblings hitting/getting phyiscal each other. My kids are 8,6,4 and almost 2 (the 2 year old isn't hitting...yet). The hitting seems to stem from the oldest. I've been trying to figure this out for a while now, recently we were able to talk about it and it seems like the hitting stems from 3 things: 1: he's annoyed/frustrated by his brothers and can't stop himself in the heat of the moment 2: he's bored so he starts trouble, and 3: he's trying to get a raise out of the younger ones cause he thinks the way they screech is funny. Often it starts #2 or 3 and the younger ones get frustrated with him and we end up with #1. I admit that I used to use time outs, I was raised being spanked so I thought it was a good alternative but we no longer do that. I've been trying to offer alternative things to do when he is feeling bored or needs some amusement and he did come up with a short list of things he might rather do and that has helped some. Yet everyday they're still at it. To the folks I know IRL the hitting seems minor (they're advice is the typical spank, yell, take stuff away) but I believe we all have the right to live here without being hit or harassed by someone else (including me) even if it is "minor" I've been reading here for a while now and find the advice to be so helpful and insightful. So with hope and an open heart & mind I ask for your advice. Thank you!
Sandra Dodd
-=- I've been trying to offer alternative things to do when he is feeling bored or needs some amusement and he did come up with a short list of things he might rather do and that has helped some. Yet everyday they're still at it. -=-
Be with them more.
Don’t leave them all together as much.
More details on how I dealt with my kids is at the link below, but I said “you can hit IF…”
That seemed easier thatn “You can never hit.” And don’t tell a child NEVER to hit, because he might need to defend himself someday.
Our “you can hit if” was
First, talk about it.
If talking doesn’t help, get a grown-up’s help.
If that doesn’t help, you can hit him.
It never got to that point, but the kids didn’t know it wouldn’t, when they were little.
Please read more:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
Sandra
Be with them more.
Don’t leave them all together as much.
More details on how I dealt with my kids is at the link below, but I said “you can hit IF…”
That seemed easier thatn “You can never hit.” And don’t tell a child NEVER to hit, because he might need to defend himself someday.
Our “you can hit if” was
First, talk about it.
If talking doesn’t help, get a grown-up’s help.
If that doesn’t help, you can hit him.
It never got to that point, but the kids didn’t know it wouldn’t, when they were little.
Please read more:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
Sandra
Cass Kotrba
-=- recently we were able to talk about it and it seems like the
hitting stems from 3 things-=-
If you are nearby, noticing what is going on, you will not have to ask your
son what is going on with him because you will know by your own
observation. Most people, especially young people, are often not very good
at understanding why they feel the way they do, especially when they're
upset. Asking your son is not as useful as being present. Once you
start to understand through your own observation what is triggering these
moments you will have more information on how to proceed.
If you are present, you will feel the energy changing in the room
and can look for ways to diffuse negative
emotions before they get to the level of physical aggression. You can
help your son before he gets to a point where he feels pushed beyond his limits.
Little things like doing something goofy, offering ice cream, distracting the
little ones to another space - aimed at changing the dynamic in that moment in a
light hearted, positive way.
My son, now 11, used to get quite aggressive with his sister. She is
a little older but he is stronger and it became a scary thing for her.
Before learning from this group, I would get mad at my son for his physical
aggression toward her. Instead of trying to get to the source of
the problem I would put him in time out or send him to his room to
"think about it". All very humiliating and isolating for him, in
hindsight. I was trying to change a behavior instead of trying to
understand my son.
I learned from this group to be more present and aware so that I could
intervene sooner. I learned to look right at him and try to understand what he
was thinking and feeling. I softened toward him. I became more patient,
more compassionate about what he was feeling, thinking, needing. He was not able
to verbalize what he needed & felt so he let things build up inside of him
until something triggered it and he exploded. It was really important for
me to tune in to what was going on with him and patiently figure it out
together.
I realized that when I would ask him things like "how could you do that to
your sister?" he didn't understand why and he began to think that he
was a bad person with "an anger problem". He didn't want to hurt her but he
couldn't control himself so he was a bad, angry kid. That's what he
thought.
When I first started to change my approach, there were times that he would
seem to quickly snap, become very angry and charge at her. I stayed
close enough that I could physically intervene to protect my daughter and also
understand the nuance of what had triggered it. There were times that I
would literally leap between them. For a time, after he started trusting
me but before he knew what else to do with his big emotions, I would leap
between them & he would physically crash/collapse into me and
discharge much of that pent up anger. I could tell that he was trying
not to hurt me and would try to have us tumble onto the couch or somewhere
safe together that we could land in a big, angry, confused hug. Then
I would separate them to different rooms and listen to both sides.
Because I was there and saw the build up there was no he said/she
said. I was able to have deeper, more meaningful conversations
with them about what had happened and try to encourage empathy,
understanding, patience and forgiveness on both sides.
One thing that came to light was that he was frustrated that I was always
taking his sister's side. I saw it as protecting her, he saw it as me
taking her side and him getting in trouble/her winning. We
talked about that, at quiet times when no one was upset. I made more
effort to help him feel that I am always on his side and here to support
and protect him as well. I listened to him, tried to make him feel
important & understood, did special things with him just the two of
us. I still do those things. We have almost no fighting in our house
now.
I can imagine that if I were 8 and I had a 6, 4 and 2 year old always
messing up my stuff and getting in my way that it would be very
frustrating. I imagine that if my mom didn't understand my frustration but
instead got angry at me and "took sides" with the other children (from his
perspective) that would make me sad and mad. I might feel misunderstood,
alone. I might wonder what was wrong with me for not being a better
child. I might long for a closer connection with my parents and siblings
but I might not know how to get there.
I can imagine how grateful I'd be for a mom who took the time to stop and
understand me, help me find some space of my own, love me through my imperfect
moments. I can imagine how hopeful that would make me feel.
-Cass
Sandra Dodd
I deleted a post from the queue, from mom with very young children. It was linking a blog post on a site that wasn’t about unschooling. Unless there’s no equivalent or better unschooling resource, outside links can be a problem. First problem is the thousands (maybe only hundreds are reading) of members of this group who might provide hits to a commercial site
Second problem is that the advice might not be great, and I don’t want us to spend much time analyzing things that weren’t by and for unschoolers anyway.
In this case, it matches a post I returned from here yesterday, though in another topic, so I’m going to bring two things here as bad examples.
A quote from the article I didn’t love (sorry, to the mom who brought it; I hope you’ll understand):
_________
I gently acknowledged that they both seemed upset and wanted the bean bag. I then allowed the scuffle to proceed with the repeated use of the phrase:
“I won’t let you touch her. I need to keep you safe!”
This meant ensuring they had no physical contact with each other. They could struggle as much as they liked over the actual bean bag but were not permitted to touch each other.
_____________
The title of the article talked about “one simple phrase,” but that’s two phrases, and not simple and in kid-world, it’s a long speech.
-=-“I won’t let you touch her. I need to keep you safe!”-=-
But meanwhile they can tussle over physical property? And struggle as much as they like? WHY? They can still get hurt without physical contact with each other. Sticks, rocks, snowballs, guns… that’s no physical contact.
Two days ago, I returned a post that had this advice (though in another topic). I will post my response to the author below that. It only went to her and the moderators at the time.
________________________
-=-I refuse to get involved in squabbles unless someone has done something to harm another or is doing something that will keep them out of heaven. Everything else I allow them to resolve. If it's too contentious, they are idle, tired, or being selfish. -=-
________________
My response:
________________
It’s not a safe environment if the children are left to squabble, and then insulted as “idle, tired or selfish” if they DO squabble. MANY adults have reported serious emotional, physical and sexual abuse from siblings whose parents had policies like “work it out” and “don’t tattle.” I will never let advice like that stand in any discussion I’ve organized and provided a space for. Those traditional, harmful philosophies are available in a million other places. The Always Learning discussion will not be one of them.
___________end of quote________
Had the person actually been interested in polishing her approach to unschooling (she didn’t seem to have one to polish), I would have pointed out the negativity and rejection in "I refuse to get involved in squabbles…”
One can’t “refuse” without having had a request. So if one of her children asked for help, or a rescue, or intervention, she would refuse?
How does that create safety, trust, partnership or learning?
There is a sea of information just a few cicks away from here—to any search engine and there you are, overwhelmed.
For here, let’s only bring things that have to do with principles that will help unschooling to thrive.
Thanks,
Sandra
Second problem is that the advice might not be great, and I don’t want us to spend much time analyzing things that weren’t by and for unschoolers anyway.
In this case, it matches a post I returned from here yesterday, though in another topic, so I’m going to bring two things here as bad examples.
A quote from the article I didn’t love (sorry, to the mom who brought it; I hope you’ll understand):
_________
I gently acknowledged that they both seemed upset and wanted the bean bag. I then allowed the scuffle to proceed with the repeated use of the phrase:
“I won’t let you touch her. I need to keep you safe!”
This meant ensuring they had no physical contact with each other. They could struggle as much as they liked over the actual bean bag but were not permitted to touch each other.
_____________
The title of the article talked about “one simple phrase,” but that’s two phrases, and not simple and in kid-world, it’s a long speech.
-=-“I won’t let you touch her. I need to keep you safe!”-=-
But meanwhile they can tussle over physical property? And struggle as much as they like? WHY? They can still get hurt without physical contact with each other. Sticks, rocks, snowballs, guns… that’s no physical contact.
Two days ago, I returned a post that had this advice (though in another topic). I will post my response to the author below that. It only went to her and the moderators at the time.
________________________
-=-I refuse to get involved in squabbles unless someone has done something to harm another or is doing something that will keep them out of heaven. Everything else I allow them to resolve. If it's too contentious, they are idle, tired, or being selfish. -=-
________________
My response:
________________
It’s not a safe environment if the children are left to squabble, and then insulted as “idle, tired or selfish” if they DO squabble. MANY adults have reported serious emotional, physical and sexual abuse from siblings whose parents had policies like “work it out” and “don’t tattle.” I will never let advice like that stand in any discussion I’ve organized and provided a space for. Those traditional, harmful philosophies are available in a million other places. The Always Learning discussion will not be one of them.
___________end of quote________
Had the person actually been interested in polishing her approach to unschooling (she didn’t seem to have one to polish), I would have pointed out the negativity and rejection in "I refuse to get involved in squabbles…”
One can’t “refuse” without having had a request. So if one of her children asked for help, or a rescue, or intervention, she would refuse?
How does that create safety, trust, partnership or learning?
There is a sea of information just a few cicks away from here—to any search engine and there you are, overwhelmed.
For here, let’s only bring things that have to do with principles that will help unschooling to thrive.
Thanks,
Sandra
Clare Kirkpatrick
A few thoughts:
"(the 2 year old isn't hitting...yet)."
You definitely need to change your thinking. This will make a difference to the way you see your children and, therefore, how you approach supporting them with conflict. Children often hit when they are lost for any other way to manage the situation. Tempers flare and they are relatively immature so lack the resources older children and adults have to reach for before hitting out. Our job as parents is to be present enough to help them use those other tools before hitting begins. So don't see your children as having something wrong with them for using hitting as a tool when they lose their tempers - see them as young, wonderful beings that, like all young people, need help from an adult to figure out dealing with anger and frustration. Talk, at other times, about how violence and anger get in your way; describe examples of when hitting out makes a situation worse; talk about how situations escalate and how to recognise when that's starting to happen and to consider if stepping away will be the most productive, helpful thing he can do at that point. If you see it happening, say things like 'I can see you're all starting to get a bit wound up. Do you want some help? Shall we do something different?'
" I admit that I used to use time outs"
This will take a long time to deschool from, I imagine. Have patience with helping your oldest learn that this won't be a tool you're interested in using nowadays. It'll take a while for him to learn that you are there to help him not to punish him and that *will* affect how he learns about the inappropriateness of physical violence.
"I've been trying to offer alternative things to do when he is feeling bored or needs some amusement and he did come up with a short list of things he might rather do and that has helped some."
Don't offer a list of things to a child who is feeling bored. Boredom is an emotion. Instead, offer your presence. Relate to his feeling of boredom. Before long, a loving, snuggly chat will soon lead to something fun. I think many children feel a sense of shame or incapability when we offer long lists of things to do when they say they're bored and none of them are attractive to them (at the time). It's easy to feel like your whole life is boring and nothing is fun and that can lead to a feeling of hopelessness - never a good path to go down! If I'm bored, ideas thrown at me by my well-meaning husband never help me. I'm feeling a sense of ennui rather than not having anything to do. Nothing feels attractive. I simply have to find out how to be at peace with that feeling of ennui and, usually, it then passes. Calling a friend for a chat usually shifts the feeling, or surfing the net. So I now never offer ideas to bored children but use the opportunity to be close to them and connect with them until the feeling has passed and inspiration has struck.
Here is some great writing about boredom on Sandra's site:
http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore
http://sandradodd.com/boredom/
"I believe we all have the right to live here without being hit or harassed by someone else (including me) even if it is "minor""
I think you're right. You do need to protect those being hit *and* to help the person who is doing the hitting learn not to do it.
"1: he's annoyed/frustrated by his brothers and can't stop himself in the heat of the moment"
If you embrace their need for you to be more present at the moment, then you will be there and notice when his frustration is rising and be able to step in. You don't necessarily need to step in and make a point about whatever it is that's going on, but you can steer the game or situation in a different direction. If he needs some physical contact, why not go for some rough and tumble play (I think it's known as rough-housing to some?). Bring calm and peace to the situation, not fear. If you're feeling dismayed or annoyed yourself, that won't help. Be the adult they need in the room.
"2: he's bored so he starts trouble"
I've mentioned boredom. Again, if you're present you may notice this and be able to head it off. Even better, pre-empt it and help him keep busy and connected with fun and interesting things to do.
"3: he's trying to get a raise out of the younger ones cause he thinks the way they screech is funny."
This is not OK - tell him so. Tell him it's not OK. I think this is unlikely for him to do if he's busy and enjoying his time already so, again, pre-empt it. Be present, be connected, do things with them.
"(the 2 year old isn't hitting...yet)."
You definitely need to change your thinking. This will make a difference to the way you see your children and, therefore, how you approach supporting them with conflict. Children often hit when they are lost for any other way to manage the situation. Tempers flare and they are relatively immature so lack the resources older children and adults have to reach for before hitting out. Our job as parents is to be present enough to help them use those other tools before hitting begins. So don't see your children as having something wrong with them for using hitting as a tool when they lose their tempers - see them as young, wonderful beings that, like all young people, need help from an adult to figure out dealing with anger and frustration. Talk, at other times, about how violence and anger get in your way; describe examples of when hitting out makes a situation worse; talk about how situations escalate and how to recognise when that's starting to happen and to consider if stepping away will be the most productive, helpful thing he can do at that point. If you see it happening, say things like 'I can see you're all starting to get a bit wound up. Do you want some help? Shall we do something different?'
" I admit that I used to use time outs"
This will take a long time to deschool from, I imagine. Have patience with helping your oldest learn that this won't be a tool you're interested in using nowadays. It'll take a while for him to learn that you are there to help him not to punish him and that *will* affect how he learns about the inappropriateness of physical violence.
"I've been trying to offer alternative things to do when he is feeling bored or needs some amusement and he did come up with a short list of things he might rather do and that has helped some."
Don't offer a list of things to a child who is feeling bored. Boredom is an emotion. Instead, offer your presence. Relate to his feeling of boredom. Before long, a loving, snuggly chat will soon lead to something fun. I think many children feel a sense of shame or incapability when we offer long lists of things to do when they say they're bored and none of them are attractive to them (at the time). It's easy to feel like your whole life is boring and nothing is fun and that can lead to a feeling of hopelessness - never a good path to go down! If I'm bored, ideas thrown at me by my well-meaning husband never help me. I'm feeling a sense of ennui rather than not having anything to do. Nothing feels attractive. I simply have to find out how to be at peace with that feeling of ennui and, usually, it then passes. Calling a friend for a chat usually shifts the feeling, or surfing the net. So I now never offer ideas to bored children but use the opportunity to be close to them and connect with them until the feeling has passed and inspiration has struck.
Here is some great writing about boredom on Sandra's site:
http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore
http://sandradodd.com/boredom/
"I believe we all have the right to live here without being hit or harassed by someone else (including me) even if it is "minor""
I think you're right. You do need to protect those being hit *and* to help the person who is doing the hitting learn not to do it.
"1: he's annoyed/frustrated by his brothers and can't stop himself in the heat of the moment"
If you embrace their need for you to be more present at the moment, then you will be there and notice when his frustration is rising and be able to step in. You don't necessarily need to step in and make a point about whatever it is that's going on, but you can steer the game or situation in a different direction. If he needs some physical contact, why not go for some rough and tumble play (I think it's known as rough-housing to some?). Bring calm and peace to the situation, not fear. If you're feeling dismayed or annoyed yourself, that won't help. Be the adult they need in the room.
"2: he's bored so he starts trouble"
I've mentioned boredom. Again, if you're present you may notice this and be able to head it off. Even better, pre-empt it and help him keep busy and connected with fun and interesting things to do.
"3: he's trying to get a raise out of the younger ones cause he thinks the way they screech is funny."
This is not OK - tell him so. Tell him it's not OK. I think this is unlikely for him to do if he's busy and enjoying his time already so, again, pre-empt it. Be present, be connected, do things with them.
On 28 November 2015 at 13:28, lizzylynn27@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:Looking for some advice in regards to siblings hitting/getting phyiscal each other. My kids are 8,6,4 and almost 2 (the 2 year old isn't hitting...yet). The hitting seems to stem from the oldest. I've been trying to figure this out for a while now, recently we were able to talk about it and it seems like the hitting stems from 3 things: 1: he's annoyed/frustrated by his brothers and can't stop himself in the heat of the moment 2: he's bored so he starts trouble, and 3: he's trying to get a raise out of the younger ones cause he thinks the way they screech is funny. Often it starts #2 or 3 and the younger ones get frustrated with him and we end up with #1. I admit that I used to use time outs, I was raised being spanked so I thought it was a good alternative but we no longer do that. I've been trying to offer alternative things to do when he is feeling bored or needs some amusement and he did come up with a short list of things he might rather do and that has helped some. Yet everyday they're still at it. To the folks I know IRL the hitting seems minor (they're advice is the typical spank, yell, take stuff away) but I believe we all have the right to live here without being hit or harassed by someone else (including me) even if it is "minor" I've been reading here for a while now and find the advice to be so helpful and insightful. So with hope and an open heart & mind I ask for your advice. Thank you!
Clare Kirkpatrick
"I refuse to get involved in squabbles unless someone has done something to harm another or is doing something that will keep them out of heaven."
When do ideas about which things will keep a child out of heaven really get in the way of unschooling? How do Christian unschoolers manage such things? I'm not really interested in whether or not a thing is counted as a 'sin' but I am interested in whether or not it hurts or harms someone or something else either physically or emotionally.
"Everything else I allow them to resolve."
Children learn how to do things by being shown how to do them. They learn from the people around them doing those things and helping the them do the things when needed. How likely is it that a child in the heat of a squabble will have the ability to break away and ask an adult to step in? If they can do that, it's likely they'll have learned good ways of resolving a dispute themselves already. As parents, it's our job to help our children when they need it *even* if they're not in a place to be able to ask for that help, surely? If I was asked explicitly not to (it has happened!) of course I would step away (not too far, though ;) ) - I'm not talking about imposing unwanted help. But when you are close with your children and know them well, knowing when they need help and when they don't isn't so difficult and children often *do* need help at times they're not able to ask for it.
"If it's too contentious, they are idle, tired, or being selfish."
:( That's just a nasty way to talk about children. Unschooling is bound to be really tricky to do well if you have ideas like that in your head, let alone coming out of your mouth/keyboard.
When do ideas about which things will keep a child out of heaven really get in the way of unschooling? How do Christian unschoolers manage such things? I'm not really interested in whether or not a thing is counted as a 'sin' but I am interested in whether or not it hurts or harms someone or something else either physically or emotionally.
"Everything else I allow them to resolve."
Children learn how to do things by being shown how to do them. They learn from the people around them doing those things and helping the them do the things when needed. How likely is it that a child in the heat of a squabble will have the ability to break away and ask an adult to step in? If they can do that, it's likely they'll have learned good ways of resolving a dispute themselves already. As parents, it's our job to help our children when they need it *even* if they're not in a place to be able to ask for that help, surely? If I was asked explicitly not to (it has happened!) of course I would step away (not too far, though ;) ) - I'm not talking about imposing unwanted help. But when you are close with your children and know them well, knowing when they need help and when they don't isn't so difficult and children often *do* need help at times they're not able to ask for it.
"If it's too contentious, they are idle, tired, or being selfish."
:( That's just a nasty way to talk about children. Unschooling is bound to be really tricky to do well if you have ideas like that in your head, let alone coming out of your mouth/keyboard.
On 29 November 2015 at 15:55, Clare Kirkpatrick <claremkirkpatrick@...> wrote:A few thoughts:
"(the 2 year old isn't hitting...yet)."
You definitely need to change your thinking. This will make a difference to the way you see your children and, therefore, how you approach supporting them with conflict. Children often hit when they are lost for any other way to manage the situation. Tempers flare and they are relatively immature so lack the resources older children and adults have to reach for before hitting out. Our job as parents is to be present enough to help them use those other tools before hitting begins. So don't see your children as having something wrong with them for using hitting as a tool when they lose their tempers - see them as young, wonderful beings that, like all young people, need help from an adult to figure out dealing with anger and frustration. Talk, at other times, about how violence and anger get in your way; describe examples of when hitting out makes a situation worse; talk about how situations escalate and how to recognise when that's starting to happen and to consider if stepping away will be the most productive, helpful thing he can do at that point. If you see it happening, say things like 'I can see you're all starting to get a bit wound up. Do you want some help? Shall we do something different?'
" I admit that I used to use time outs"
This will take a long time to deschool from, I imagine. Have patience with helping your oldest learn that this won't be a tool you're interested in using nowadays. It'll take a while for him to learn that you are there to help him not to punish him and that *will* affect how he learns about the inappropriateness of physical violence.
"I've been trying to offer alternative things to do when he is feeling bored or needs some amusement and he did come up with a short list of things he might rather do and that has helped some."
Don't offer a list of things to a child who is feeling bored. Boredom is an emotion. Instead, offer your presence. Relate to his feeling of boredom. Before long, a loving, snuggly chat will soon lead to something fun. I think many children feel a sense of shame or incapability when we offer long lists of things to do when they say they're bored and none of them are attractive to them (at the time). It's easy to feel like your whole life is boring and nothing is fun and that can lead to a feeling of hopelessness - never a good path to go down! If I'm bored, ideas thrown at me by my well-meaning husband never help me. I'm feeling a sense of ennui rather than not having anything to do. Nothing feels attractive. I simply have to find out how to be at peace with that feeling of ennui and, usually, it then passes. Calling a friend for a chat usually shifts the feeling, or surfing the net. So I now never offer ideas to bored children but use the opportunity to be close to them and connect with them until the feeling has passed and inspiration has struck.
Here is some great writing about boredom on Sandra's site:
http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore
http://sandradodd.com/boredom/
"I believe we all have the right to live here without being hit or harassed by someone else (including me) even if it is "minor""
I think you're right. You do need to protect those being hit *and* to help the person who is doing the hitting learn not to do it.
"1: he's annoyed/frustrated by his brothers and can't stop himself in the heat of the moment"
If you embrace their need for you to be more present at the moment, then you will be there and notice when his frustration is rising and be able to step in. You don't necessarily need to step in and make a point about whatever it is that's going on, but you can steer the game or situation in a different direction. If he needs some physical contact, why not go for some rough and tumble play (I think it's known as rough-housing to some?). Bring calm and peace to the situation, not fear. If you're feeling dismayed or annoyed yourself, that won't help. Be the adult they need in the room.
"2: he's bored so he starts trouble"
I've mentioned boredom. Again, if you're present you may notice this and be able to head it off. Even better, pre-empt it and help him keep busy and connected with fun and interesting things to do.
"3: he's trying to get a raise out of the younger ones cause he thinks the way they screech is funny."
This is not OK - tell him so. Tell him it's not OK. I think this is unlikely for him to do if he's busy and enjoying his time already so, again, pre-empt it. Be present, be connected, do things with them.On 28 November 2015 at 13:28, lizzylynn27@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:Looking for some advice in regards to siblings hitting/getting phyiscal each other. My kids are 8,6,4 and almost 2 (the 2 year old isn't hitting...yet). The hitting seems to stem from the oldest. I've been trying to figure this out for a while now, recently we were able to talk about it and it seems like the hitting stems from 3 things: 1: he's annoyed/frustrated by his brothers and can't stop himself in the heat of the moment 2: he's bored so he starts trouble, and 3: he's trying to get a raise out of the younger ones cause he thinks the way they screech is funny. Often it starts #2 or 3 and the younger ones get frustrated with him and we end up with #1. I admit that I used to use time outs, I was raised being spanked so I thought it was a good alternative but we no longer do that. I've been trying to offer alternative things to do when he is feeling bored or needs some amusement and he did come up with a short list of things he might rather do and that has helped some. Yet everyday they're still at it. To the folks I know IRL the hitting seems minor (they're advice is the typical spank, yell, take stuff away) but I believe we all have the right to live here without being hit or harassed by someone else (including me) even if it is "minor" I've been reading here for a while now and find the advice to be so helpful and insightful. So with hope and an open heart & mind I ask for your advice. Thank you!
Sandra Dodd
-=-. If you see it happening, say things like 'I can see you're all starting to get a bit wound up. Do you want some help? Shall we do something different?’-=-
But not all of that.
And maybe much less.
If being nearer and making a light suggestion doesn’t help, maybe gently and naturally (for a legitimate reason) remove one person (to go to the toilet, or get a drink, or go with you to check the mail, or something), as a pressure-release. If it doesn’t seem like a simple single change will help, maybe pause the video for a moment and ask if anyone’s ready for lunch, or introduce something into the mix—paper and pens, playdoh….. but sometimes a single element changing will defuse and diffuse things.
-=-" I admit that I used to use time outs”
**This will take a long time to deschool from, I imagine.**
Recovery, more than “deschooling.”
When a family has spanked, or punished, or required chores, they’re not starting from the beginning to create a new way of being. First the child will need time to trust that the parents have really changed. The children’s reactions will be to the spanking or new lack, or the time out or new lack, and it will take a while for them to trust the parents to be different. Any relapse or steps back on the part of the parent will solidify the lack of trust even longer. It’s not easy to change, but there are solid ideas for it here:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
-=- If he needs some physical contact, why not go for some rough and tumble play (I think it's known as rough-housing to some?).-=-
Many moms (especially) underestimate the amount of physical activity boys (especially) need. Some kids (girls or boys) need and want to move much more than older, sedate parents might feel like facilitating.
http://sandradodd.com/physicality
Maybe hire an older-child neighbor/friend to play with that child, like a run in the park, or to play ball outside, if the mom has younger kids who are better staying in.
Clare’s ideas are good ones, and I’m glad she brought the links to pages about boredom. There are other ideas collected there.
-=-"2: he's bored so he starts trouble”-=-
When a parent can really begin to see and develop a better partnership with each child, it might look more like the “trouble” was created by the parent leaving the child alone too long. Children shouldn’t be taking care of themselves, nor wholly entertaining themselves.
One reason I bristle when I read other people’s/places’ statements like “He will be in charge of his own education” or “He will be in charge of his own learning” is that it seems harsh and lonely and lazy, on the parents’ part. It doesn’t encourage interaction. The parents shouldn’t be waiting for a child to ask questions, or to declare an interest or a need.
Pam Sorooshian’s article about unschooling NOT being “child led” might be helpful.
https://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/unschooling-is-not-child-led-learning/
In an enriched and attentive environment there will be more learning and less fighting.
Sandra
But not all of that.
And maybe much less.
If being nearer and making a light suggestion doesn’t help, maybe gently and naturally (for a legitimate reason) remove one person (to go to the toilet, or get a drink, or go with you to check the mail, or something), as a pressure-release. If it doesn’t seem like a simple single change will help, maybe pause the video for a moment and ask if anyone’s ready for lunch, or introduce something into the mix—paper and pens, playdoh….. but sometimes a single element changing will defuse and diffuse things.
-=-" I admit that I used to use time outs”
**This will take a long time to deschool from, I imagine.**
Recovery, more than “deschooling.”
When a family has spanked, or punished, or required chores, they’re not starting from the beginning to create a new way of being. First the child will need time to trust that the parents have really changed. The children’s reactions will be to the spanking or new lack, or the time out or new lack, and it will take a while for them to trust the parents to be different. Any relapse or steps back on the part of the parent will solidify the lack of trust even longer. It’s not easy to change, but there are solid ideas for it here:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
-=- If he needs some physical contact, why not go for some rough and tumble play (I think it's known as rough-housing to some?).-=-
Many moms (especially) underestimate the amount of physical activity boys (especially) need. Some kids (girls or boys) need and want to move much more than older, sedate parents might feel like facilitating.
http://sandradodd.com/physicality
Maybe hire an older-child neighbor/friend to play with that child, like a run in the park, or to play ball outside, if the mom has younger kids who are better staying in.
Clare’s ideas are good ones, and I’m glad she brought the links to pages about boredom. There are other ideas collected there.
-=-"2: he's bored so he starts trouble”-=-
When a parent can really begin to see and develop a better partnership with each child, it might look more like the “trouble” was created by the parent leaving the child alone too long. Children shouldn’t be taking care of themselves, nor wholly entertaining themselves.
One reason I bristle when I read other people’s/places’ statements like “He will be in charge of his own education” or “He will be in charge of his own learning” is that it seems harsh and lonely and lazy, on the parents’ part. It doesn’t encourage interaction. The parents shouldn’t be waiting for a child to ask questions, or to declare an interest or a need.
Pam Sorooshian’s article about unschooling NOT being “child led” might be helpful.
https://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/unschooling-is-not-child-led-learning/
In an enriched and attentive environment there will be more learning and less fighting.
Sandra
Megan Valnes
-=-Recovery, more than “deschooling.” -=-
Having come into unschooling when my oldest was 8 (and he's now 11), I can definitely vouch for the time it takes to recover from past damage and overcome the loss of trust between parent and child that mainstream parenting and school causes. There is no magic formula to gain trust back overnight. You must go through the process, there's really no getting around it, and once your child begins to trust you again and know in his gut that you are serious and committed to the big changes, he will start to relax into the comfort of unschooling.
Like so many have said, you need to be there more. Be with them. Play with them. Let the house go for a little bit. My oldest is 11 and when he's complaining of being bored, it often means he wants someone to hang out with (usually me). When he's bored I say "I'm sorry you're feeling bored, how can I help?" If he says, "I don't know!!" then I offer some things I can do with him that I know he enjoys. Like I said, his bored is almost always wanting my company or a friend's company, so we work that out for him.
Having 5 children, I can tell you the best way to stop hitting is to be there with them as they play, learn their dynamics, and try your best to refrain from reverting to past behaviors, such as yelling and timeouts. I know that is not an easy task at first, but if you can pause in the moments of distress and see your children for what they are--little people learning their way around the world, your empathy will have a chance to kick in and you can handle the situation more effectively. The more practice you get the better you will become and your children will catch on and suddenly you'll find that there aren't nearly as many angry situations to break up.
Perhaps your oldest son needs some more special attention from you. You have a 2 year old, so I'm sure you're busy with that child, but can you find a way to spend more one on one time with your oldest? Maybe while the toddler is napping? And use that time to do whatever he wants and really be engaged. Even 20 minutes can mean a lot!
Warmly,
Megan
Megan Valnes
Another link for a resource that was and is a tremendous help. With little ones, reading long posts can be daunting, but listening in the car or while doing dishes is totally doable.
Also, I print out the readings that resonate with me so I can refer back to them or be reminded of them daily.
Warmly,
Megan
On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Megan Valnes <meganvalnes@...> wrote:-=-Recovery, more than “deschooling.” -=-Having come into unschooling when my oldest was 8 (and he's now 11), I can definitely vouch for the time it takes to recover from past damage and overcome the loss of trust between parent and child that mainstream parenting and school causes. There is no magic formula to gain trust back overnight. You must go through the process, there's really no getting around it, and once your child begins to trust you again and know in his gut that you are serious and committed to the big changes, he will start to relax into the comfort of unschooling.Like so many have said, you need to be there more. Be with them. Play with them. Let the house go for a little bit. My oldest is 11 and when he's complaining of being bored, it often means he wants someone to hang out with (usually me). When he's bored I say "I'm sorry you're feeling bored, how can I help?" If he says, "I don't know!!" then I offer some things I can do with him that I know he enjoys. Like I said, his bored is almost always wanting my company or a friend's company, so we work that out for him.Having 5 children, I can tell you the best way to stop hitting is to be there with them as they play, learn their dynamics, and try your best to refrain from reverting to past behaviors, such as yelling and timeouts. I know that is not an easy task at first, but if you can pause in the moments of distress and see your children for what they are--little people learning their way around the world, your empathy will have a chance to kick in and you can handle the situation more effectively. The more practice you get the better you will become and your children will catch on and suddenly you'll find that there aren't nearly as many angry situations to break up.Perhaps your oldest son needs some more special attention from you. You have a 2 year old, so I'm sure you're busy with that child, but can you find a way to spend more one on one time with your oldest? Maybe while the toddler is napping? And use that time to do whatever he wants and really be engaged. Even 20 minutes can mean a lot!Warmly,Megan
Cass Kotrba
-=- Many moms (especially) underestimate the amount of physical activity
boys (especially) need. Some kids (girls or boys) need and want to move much
more than older, sedate parents might feel like facilitating. -=-
I was thinking about this aspect, too. This was an important piece
for finding a peaceful balance in our home.
If you are taking the younger kids to the park maybe the 8
year old would enjoy things for older kids like parkour,
skateboarding/razor riding, climbing type activities, larping.
I do play some tackling games with him but at this point we are almost the
same size so he has to be careful with me. We also do larping on the
trampoline and I try to throw the ball for him. (I remind him that he needs
practice catching poorly thrown balls too!) I drag him through
the snow on a sled with our 4 wheeler for hours in the winter. He has his
own chainsaw and he enjoys things like cutting down small, dead trees or
cutting firewood on our property when the weather is warm - with me
there.
I talked to my husband at one point about Ben's need for more physical
activities and he makes an effort to do tickling/tackling/ball throwing
activities with him. Even though my husband is sometimes tired in the evenings
he reminds himself that it's important for our son's happiness and their
relationship and that this time they have together is fleeting. It is healing
for him to do things with our son that he wished his dad would have done with
him.
Ben has gotten into football in the past couple of years and that has
been a great outlet. He plays on a team seasonally and
also enjoys playing football with Dad or friends, football video games,
reading sports magazines, memorizing tons of information & then patiently
trying to explain things to me, watching football with Dad. Lots of
different interests that have sprung up around that one topic. Now that
our son is older he is developing a different relationship with his dad and
that's been pretty cool. Those are activities between just the two of
them, no sister involved, and that is nice.
-=- My oldest is 11 and when he's complaining of being bored, it often
means he wants someone to hang out with (usually me). -=-
-=- Boredom is an emotion. Instead, offer your presence. Relate to
his feeling of boredom. Before long, a loving, snuggly chat will soon lead to
something fun.-=-
I guess I haven't really thought of boredom as an emotion and I like
that idea. I have noticed that both of my kids, but especially
my daughter (13), will sometimes come to me and say she's bored. She seems
sort of stuck and dissatisfied. Many times we'll just talk for awhile
and then she'll remember something that she had wanted to do and go off
happily. Other times we will do something together, like go to the
grocery store or work on decorating her room, and then she pops
out of it and feels inspired again.
-=-Perhaps your oldest son needs some more special attention from you. You
have a 2 year old, so I'm sure you're busy with that child, but can you find a
way to spend more one on one time with your oldest?-=-
I have found that special attention can sometimes be as
simple and fast as a loving look, a long hug, rubbing a head or back. Just
taking a moment to notice each child and send them little loving looks,
gestures, words goes a long way.
One special thing that has developed between my son and I is the bond we
share in caring for our animals. Currently we have dogs, cats,
goats, chickens and ducks. One day, while Ben was in this healing period
and toward the beginning of our journey with farm animals, - (which,
I'd say both of my kids are still - 3 years later - healing from
their years of being sent to school and being over socialized/under
supported with peers outside of school. On top of having parents who
lacked skills in fully supporting them) - one of our sweet, shy little ducks
started limping. I examined her and saw that she had a cut between her leg
and her body. I wanted to spray some medicine on it but I couldn't
hold her and spray it at the same time. I went in the house and asked the
kids if one of them would help. Jade said "eww" and Ben said "sure".
He came out there with me twice a day for about a week, never a complaint, and
sprayed that medicine on the little duck's body. As he did this task I
could see and feel a sense of gentleness & protectiveness rise in him.
Also a sense of pride and confidence in himself that he was able to help both
his mom and this duck in a meaningful way.
That precious kid has become a huge help to me! He
enjoys it and I see him swell with pride and this sense of feeling his own power
and ability to be helpful, do good. Protect innocence. He is a
steady, clear thinking assistant and I am so proud of him. And
grateful for his help!!
Recently we have been rehoming some of our young goats from last spring in
an effort to make room for the next round of babies (we have a few dairy goats
and they need to breed each year in order to provide milk). I wanted to
vaccinate them before sending them out into the world but I was not sure how to
pull off this task. I asked Ben if he would mind helping me and he said
"Mind helping? I'd LOVE to do that! Sounds fun!" This has
been completely unplanned and very healing for him. For us.
The point of that story is that #1 - you never know where learning
& healing will come from. And #2 - right now it may seem
like you are the one doing most of the giving to your family. But
when you take the time to put love and patience in you will end up being on the
receiving end of that love and patience. Kids are not like a slot machine
where you put your money in and take your chances. What you put in is what
you will get out. <3
-Cass
Cass Kotrba
-=- This was an important piece for finding a peaceful balance in our
home. -=-
I sometimes think of that peaceful, joyful balance found in an
unschooling home as being like Disneyland. If you decide you want to go to
Disneyland you have to start where you are and head in that direction.
Maybe you've never seen Disneyland but you've heard about it or seen the travel
brochure and you've decided you'd like to take your family there. Previous
unschoolers have left maps for you to follow, there are various routes of
transportation. But you have to start where you are and begin moving
toward your goal.
Maybe you'll see signs along the way that indicate that you are heading in
the right direction but if you're busy and distracted it is easy to miss those
little signs. But no matter where you're starting or what means of
transportation you have, you've got to keep moving toward Disneyland. If
you drive toward Disneyland for awhile, get frustrated and lose faith that you
will ever get there or doubt it's existence and retreat to old ways that is
like turning your car around and driving back toward home. Then you decide
to try again for awhile so you turn your car around and drive back toward
Disneyland.
Every time you go back to old ways or veer off into hurtful habits it's
like getting lost in a residential neighborhood or a mall parking lot.
Like heading for the highway and ending up in a parking garage. But if you
stay the course, trust the map, you can get there. If you drive
straight for Disneyland and try avoid detours you will get there much
faster. The trip will also be easier if you pack yummy snacks and fun
games! Look for the joy, laughter and learning along the
journey.
Now I feel like every day with my family is better than Disneyland.
The best part is that now that we're here we don't have to
turn our car around and go back home. We're already home
and we can take our Disneyland with us where ever we
go!
-Cass
Cass Kotrba
-=- found in an unschooling home as being like Disneyland. -=-
Found in SOME unschooling homes.
Sandra Dodd
-=- I sometimes think of that peaceful, joyful balance found in an unschooling home as being like Disneyland. -=-
She clarified: -=-Found in SOME unschooling homes.-=-
Cass’s new Disneyland analogy! (Or new to this group discussion anyway.)
I have this to say about that:
Unschooling is not as expensive as Disneyland and not as tiring, and you can drink water from the tap instead of $3 a bottle or some such
Otherwise, it’s a pretty great analogy, especialy about getting lost in parking lots and neighborhoods. :-)
I liked -=- If you drive toward Disneyland for awhile, get frustrated and lose faith that you will ever get there or doubt its existence and retreat to old ways that is like turning your car around and driving back toward home. -=-
Most people never go to Disneyland. Some never wanted to. Some live on continents without one, some go to Disney World or Lego Land. That’s not the point, though. :-)
IF people DO want something (a peaceful family) and they doubt the existence of such a thing, I have a few things they might want to look at, in secret, in private:
http://sandradodd.com/feedback
The lefthand column has a dozen new reports I’ve collected in the past week.
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
People said they thought they were unschooling, but they reached another, better level that they hadn’t expected.
And if that’s not enough to persuade you the reader, here’s a page about how unschooling changes people:
http://sandradodd.com/change.html
And for the more advanced unschoolers:
http://sandradodd.com/spirituality
But mostly, do what Cass suggested. Approach it as if you’re going somewhere, and don’t keep turning back around and going home. :-)
Sandra
She clarified: -=-Found in SOME unschooling homes.-=-
Cass’s new Disneyland analogy! (Or new to this group discussion anyway.)
I have this to say about that:
Unschooling is not as expensive as Disneyland and not as tiring, and you can drink water from the tap instead of $3 a bottle or some such
Otherwise, it’s a pretty great analogy, especialy about getting lost in parking lots and neighborhoods. :-)
I liked -=- If you drive toward Disneyland for awhile, get frustrated and lose faith that you will ever get there or doubt its existence and retreat to old ways that is like turning your car around and driving back toward home. -=-
Most people never go to Disneyland. Some never wanted to. Some live on continents without one, some go to Disney World or Lego Land. That’s not the point, though. :-)
IF people DO want something (a peaceful family) and they doubt the existence of such a thing, I have a few things they might want to look at, in secret, in private:
http://sandradodd.com/feedback
The lefthand column has a dozen new reports I’ve collected in the past week.
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
People said they thought they were unschooling, but they reached another, better level that they hadn’t expected.
And if that’s not enough to persuade you the reader, here’s a page about how unschooling changes people:
http://sandradodd.com/change.html
And for the more advanced unschoolers:
http://sandradodd.com/spirituality
But mostly, do what Cass suggested. Approach it as if you’re going somewhere, and don’t keep turning back around and going home. :-)
Sandra
Cass Kotrba
-=- Cass’s new Disneyland analogy! (Or new to this group discussion
anyway.)-=-
Yup, brand new. :D
lizzylynn27@...
Thank you for all your insightful responses. I had to take a few days to really read/listen and process them but now I see the light! The trouble was with me. I had fallen into a habit of getting things done and parenting from the sidelines while they seemed engaged in an activity rather than being WITH them. I also was focusing too much on asking why he did X rather than understanding where he was coming from. I'm sure he did feel as if I was taking the younger kids side as he told me how they were annoying him yet all I focused on was pointing out how much more (to my perspective) he was annoying them. My expectations were off too. Just because he is older or "should know better" doesn't give him self control or the skills to deal with his frustrations.
Over the last few days I have done better at being WITH them, playing with them (encouraging physical activity rather than telling them to calm down and be quieter cause it gets a bit loud for me). Being an active participant makes it easier to intervene at an early stage and when that isn't working well one of them will come with me which also gives them some 1 on 1 time which has historically been in short supply. Things have turned around already and that feeling I had of missing something has gone away. Thank you! Thank you!
Sandra Dodd
I’m glad things are going well. Here’s another step toward peace and prosperity for you:
-=-Being an active participant makes it easier to intervene at an early stage-=-
Don’t think of it as “intervening.’
You’re helping them get along. You should be doing that before there’s anything to “intervene” about!
Setting up the room, choosing a movie, making sure they’ve eaten—all of that helps with peace and harmony.
If you think or speak a negative word, try to rephrase (in your thoughts) to something more positive, and the next time you might be a step closer to being relaxed and to feeling confident and competent being a partner to each of your children.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
Sandra
-=-Being an active participant makes it easier to intervene at an early stage-=-
Don’t think of it as “intervening.’
You’re helping them get along. You should be doing that before there’s anything to “intervene” about!
Setting up the room, choosing a movie, making sure they’ve eaten—all of that helps with peace and harmony.
If you think or speak a negative word, try to rephrase (in your thoughts) to something more positive, and the next time you might be a step closer to being relaxed and to feeling confident and competent being a partner to each of your children.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
Sandra