Dealing with kids who aren't as nice
Sandra Dodd
This is posted anonymously. The anonymous author wanted me to use this as a subject, but I don't like it:
"Resources/input for dealing with mean kids"
The text of the anonymous question:
___________________________________________________________________
My son just turned nine years old, and last week had a bad experience at basketball camp with a mean kid targeting him. Prior to this, we have been very lucky to have nice kids in his activities. He has attended several small-group activities each week for the past two school years (dance, scouts, seasonal Y sports leagues, etc.), with a parent watching/waiting or, in cub scouts, attending with him. He is more shy and quiet than at home, but chooses to attend happily, participates appropriately and gets along fine.
Basketball camp was 3 hours long, for 4 days. After the second day, my son told me it was clear to him that another boy was being mean and specifically targeting him. In retrospect, the kid was mean from the very first word he spoke, but my son took it more as thoughtlessness rather than intentional mean-spiritedness. (The kid pronounced my son's (last) name, altering it to include the word "shit", and my son laughed along.) It accelerated from there to repeatedly cutting in front of him in line, not giving him the ball when it was his turn, trying to get all the kids in the group not to give him the ball, to grabbing the ball out of his hands, laughing and making snide comments when he missed, etc. This was not a game situation, it was drillwork where the boys were supposed to be lined up taking turns doing certain tasks, mostly shooting baskets. The other kid was clearly going out of his way to be mean to my son. To keep a long story short, morning of the third day, I talked to one of the coaches, who talked to the kid being mean, who then got sneakier and meaner. Morning of the fourth day, my son said he was tired of it, and three days was enough. So he didn't go the last day.
We got through this, but as my son is more and more interested in participating in activities/situations which it so happens that parents and other adults are not closely supervising, it's likely he will encounter this again. I am looking for resources that have helped other unschoolers be better prepared to deal with bully/mean situations. I would welcome any suggestions of specific movies, shows, videos or chapter books that would help him learn more about good ways to respond to meanness in real life. I'm interested in resources for parents, as well.
What has helped you and your children?
Thanks so much.
"Resources/input for dealing with mean kids"
The text of the anonymous question:
___________________________________________________________________
My son just turned nine years old, and last week had a bad experience at basketball camp with a mean kid targeting him. Prior to this, we have been very lucky to have nice kids in his activities. He has attended several small-group activities each week for the past two school years (dance, scouts, seasonal Y sports leagues, etc.), with a parent watching/waiting or, in cub scouts, attending with him. He is more shy and quiet than at home, but chooses to attend happily, participates appropriately and gets along fine.
Basketball camp was 3 hours long, for 4 days. After the second day, my son told me it was clear to him that another boy was being mean and specifically targeting him. In retrospect, the kid was mean from the very first word he spoke, but my son took it more as thoughtlessness rather than intentional mean-spiritedness. (The kid pronounced my son's (last) name, altering it to include the word "shit", and my son laughed along.) It accelerated from there to repeatedly cutting in front of him in line, not giving him the ball when it was his turn, trying to get all the kids in the group not to give him the ball, to grabbing the ball out of his hands, laughing and making snide comments when he missed, etc. This was not a game situation, it was drillwork where the boys were supposed to be lined up taking turns doing certain tasks, mostly shooting baskets. The other kid was clearly going out of his way to be mean to my son. To keep a long story short, morning of the third day, I talked to one of the coaches, who talked to the kid being mean, who then got sneakier and meaner. Morning of the fourth day, my son said he was tired of it, and three days was enough. So he didn't go the last day.
We got through this, but as my son is more and more interested in participating in activities/situations which it so happens that parents and other adults are not closely supervising, it's likely he will encounter this again. I am looking for resources that have helped other unschoolers be better prepared to deal with bully/mean situations. I would welcome any suggestions of specific movies, shows, videos or chapter books that would help him learn more about good ways to respond to meanness in real life. I'm interested in resources for parents, as well.
What has helped you and your children?
Thanks so much.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Resources/input for dealing with mean kids-=-
Part of living in the world is living with people who aren't as nice. For one's mother to dismiss another person as "mean" might not be the most helpful thing to do.
I now some unschooled kids who could be called "mean kids," but it's better for their parents to find ways for them to be happier and calmer and all that.
So I'd like to start at the "mean kid" point.
Talking to the coach was probably a good idea, but coaching your own child to have spoken to the coach after that, if it didn't stop, might've been better. If that coach wasn't able to make things better, maybe talking to the boss of the coach would've helped. Four days isn't long enough to resolve problems, so I'm talking about future situations.
-=-He is more shy and quiet than at home, but chooses to attend happily, participates appropriately and gets along fine. -=-
Apparently not always.
Sometimes participating appropriately might involve saying "Be nice" to someone else, or "It's my turn," and practicing a steady gaze, or practicing saying to an adult in charge, "Can you help me, please?" Loudly and strongly stated, the adult should come over, and the kid should say what's wrong.
OR, alternatively, the parent could say "Some kids are that way," and smile and say "Maybe you can have fun for two more days even if he's disruptive." Calling him disruptive or impolite might be a better example for your child than to define him as "a mean kid."
The origin of "mean" in this sort of context is "inferior." A lower class of person. And the effect can be that the "nice kid" sees himself as superior (in rank or value) to "the mean kid." And it might be true. :-) But in the case of picking, picking, teasing, attention-getting behavior, helping a child with ways to roll with it might be more useful than ways to resist it.
In very literal terms, maybe aikido would be helpful. Some martial art, but aikido specifically might give him ideas (and the mom or parents, too! it might be a thing to do as a family) for standing firm when someone else is aggressive, and letting it pass on by.
Sandra
Part of living in the world is living with people who aren't as nice. For one's mother to dismiss another person as "mean" might not be the most helpful thing to do.
I now some unschooled kids who could be called "mean kids," but it's better for their parents to find ways for them to be happier and calmer and all that.
So I'd like to start at the "mean kid" point.
Talking to the coach was probably a good idea, but coaching your own child to have spoken to the coach after that, if it didn't stop, might've been better. If that coach wasn't able to make things better, maybe talking to the boss of the coach would've helped. Four days isn't long enough to resolve problems, so I'm talking about future situations.
-=-He is more shy and quiet than at home, but chooses to attend happily, participates appropriately and gets along fine. -=-
Apparently not always.
Sometimes participating appropriately might involve saying "Be nice" to someone else, or "It's my turn," and practicing a steady gaze, or practicing saying to an adult in charge, "Can you help me, please?" Loudly and strongly stated, the adult should come over, and the kid should say what's wrong.
OR, alternatively, the parent could say "Some kids are that way," and smile and say "Maybe you can have fun for two more days even if he's disruptive." Calling him disruptive or impolite might be a better example for your child than to define him as "a mean kid."
The origin of "mean" in this sort of context is "inferior." A lower class of person. And the effect can be that the "nice kid" sees himself as superior (in rank or value) to "the mean kid." And it might be true. :-) But in the case of picking, picking, teasing, attention-getting behavior, helping a child with ways to roll with it might be more useful than ways to resist it.
In very literal terms, maybe aikido would be helpful. Some martial art, but aikido specifically might give him ideas (and the mom or parents, too! it might be a thing to do as a family) for standing firm when someone else is aggressive, and letting it pass on by.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
This was sent straight to me. I think it was an error.
____________________
Sandra Dodd wrote:
I've never before said to my son that another child was a "mean kid".
Thing is, when I came in at the end of the second day of basketball camp, I saw him. This kid WAS being mean. He was not goofing around. He was obviously an experienced bully, and he was definitely targeting my child. My son was not that bothered by him at first. He noticed the kid was impolite and not following the rules, but my son didn't realize it was only directed at him, and he didn't expect it to get any worse. He didn't take it personally. Then the kid made it loud and clear that he intended to be Mean, specifically, Mean to one certain child who happens to be my son. He was bigger, stronger, much better at making baskets, and way more aggressive. He knew other kids in the group, was not shy, and he knew how to exclude and intimidate and sneak. He targeted my child. My son didn't know anyone in his group, was very quiet and shy, couldn't make baskets, and had no experience with being excluded or intimidated.
At the end of day 3, another mother approached me and said her son had told her on day 1 that camp wasn't fun, especially since this kid in their group was "bullying" my kid. So on day 2, she observed. She told me she could barely keep from running out on the floor and saying something to the kid! I was not over-reacting. I've never called someone a "mean kid" to my son before. That's why I was asking for advice here. I realize my nine year old needs to know how to deal with kids who Really Are Being Mean. On purpose.
You gave good suggestions, Sandra. Thank you.
_____________________________
-=- So on day 2, she observed. She told me she could barely keep from running out on the floor and saying something to the kid! -=-
Then maybe she should have done that! Or you and she should have talked to someone who could do something, right then, instead of just talking to each other and fuming and letting it continue.
-=-I've never before said to my son that another child was a "mean kid".-=-
When people write (here or anywhere) their unseen thoughts come out. Your subconscious, your beliefs, your attitudes, can show to strangers at a distance. Why do you think your own child who knows you well would not know what you think?
It seems perhaps (this could be wrong, because tone can be tricky to read, even though words are cut-and-pasteable) that the original poster was very angry at a child, and now is very angry at this group (or maybe just me) for pointing out problematical thoughts and ideas.
You can't childproof the world. The better goal is to worldproof your child.
If the camp was stressful, and he comes home and the mom is stressed, where will he have peace?
Here's about peace: http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
and here's about words: http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2011/12/flow-of-words.html
Sandra
P.S. Here's why I don't want e-mail just to me: http://sandradodd.com/oneonone
____________________
Sandra Dodd wrote:
>>>>>>-=-Resources/input for dealing with mean kids-=-Yes. I very much agree. "disruptive", "impolite", "being inappropriate", "having a hard time getting along".
>>>>>>Part of living in the world is living with people who aren't as nice. For one's mother to dismiss another person as "mean" might not be the most helpful thing to do.
>>>>>>OR, alternatively, the parent could say "Some kids are that way," and smile and say "Maybe you can have fun for two more days even if he's >>>>>>disruptive." Calling him disruptive or impolite might be a better example for your child than to define him as "a mean kid."
I've never before said to my son that another child was a "mean kid".
Thing is, when I came in at the end of the second day of basketball camp, I saw him. This kid WAS being mean. He was not goofing around. He was obviously an experienced bully, and he was definitely targeting my child. My son was not that bothered by him at first. He noticed the kid was impolite and not following the rules, but my son didn't realize it was only directed at him, and he didn't expect it to get any worse. He didn't take it personally. Then the kid made it loud and clear that he intended to be Mean, specifically, Mean to one certain child who happens to be my son. He was bigger, stronger, much better at making baskets, and way more aggressive. He knew other kids in the group, was not shy, and he knew how to exclude and intimidate and sneak. He targeted my child. My son didn't know anyone in his group, was very quiet and shy, couldn't make baskets, and had no experience with being excluded or intimidated.
At the end of day 3, another mother approached me and said her son had told her on day 1 that camp wasn't fun, especially since this kid in their group was "bullying" my kid. So on day 2, she observed. She told me she could barely keep from running out on the floor and saying something to the kid! I was not over-reacting. I've never called someone a "mean kid" to my son before. That's why I was asking for advice here. I realize my nine year old needs to know how to deal with kids who Really Are Being Mean. On purpose.
You gave good suggestions, Sandra. Thank you.
_____________________________
-=- So on day 2, she observed. She told me she could barely keep from running out on the floor and saying something to the kid! -=-
Then maybe she should have done that! Or you and she should have talked to someone who could do something, right then, instead of just talking to each other and fuming and letting it continue.
-=-I've never before said to my son that another child was a "mean kid".-=-
When people write (here or anywhere) their unseen thoughts come out. Your subconscious, your beliefs, your attitudes, can show to strangers at a distance. Why do you think your own child who knows you well would not know what you think?
It seems perhaps (this could be wrong, because tone can be tricky to read, even though words are cut-and-pasteable) that the original poster was very angry at a child, and now is very angry at this group (or maybe just me) for pointing out problematical thoughts and ideas.
You can't childproof the world. The better goal is to worldproof your child.
If the camp was stressful, and he comes home and the mom is stressed, where will he have peace?
Here's about peace: http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
and here's about words: http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2011/12/flow-of-words.html
Sandra
P.S. Here's why I don't want e-mail just to me: http://sandradodd.com/oneonone
Joyce Fetteroll
At the end of day 3, ...
A lot of what you've written is "Here's why I felt so helpless!"
It's possible your son feels that too. He may have picked up that you were clueless too. Which isn't going to help him feel more confident that he can handle it.
This incident is over. The details, the way it unfolded isn't important now. What's important is identifying the parts that your son and you may encounter in the future. And then coming up with some tools he can use. Like responses he can use. Like getting someone's help.
He now knows some kids can be deliberately hurtful. He'll be less confused next time. Bullies exist. Unschooling doesn't make them magically vanish.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
I had forgotten that the original post was anonymous (I posted it for the writer), so that's why she wrote to me instead of the group.
I've asked her to review the posting guidelines ( http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS ) and to post directly, next time.
From the original post, the final question was
"I am looking for resources that have helped other unschoolers be better prepared to deal with bully/mean situations. I would welcome any suggestions of specific movies, shows, videos or chapter books that would help him learn more about good ways to respond to meanness in real life. I'm interested in resources for parents, as well."
From a follow-up e-mail (some of which would not be helpful here) the question was asked a different way:
-=-If anyone can suggest resources that helped them and their child feel more prepared to deal with being targeted and treated meanly by another child, I would appreciate it. His dad and I have talked to him about being assertive when he needs to, keeping away from kids who act that way if possible, etc. But I know he responds well to videos and loves reading chapter books. I'm really hoping to find a couple applicable movies and/or books. That could be empowering.-=-
Talking to a child about being assertive when the parents can't be isn't as good as the parents living the way they want the child to live, and being the way they want the child to be.
The two questions above are quite schoolish, from the term "chapter book" to the apparent request for a curriculum, or materials that will "cover" the topic.
If people here know of good examples in movies or books that's fine with me, but I think living by principles, being available, being realistic, and assisting him as a partner in dealing with things as they come up is a better unschooling "method" than "finding resources" designed to teach or illustrate something.
Sandra
I've asked her to review the posting guidelines ( http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS ) and to post directly, next time.
From the original post, the final question was
"I am looking for resources that have helped other unschoolers be better prepared to deal with bully/mean situations. I would welcome any suggestions of specific movies, shows, videos or chapter books that would help him learn more about good ways to respond to meanness in real life. I'm interested in resources for parents, as well."
From a follow-up e-mail (some of which would not be helpful here) the question was asked a different way:
-=-If anyone can suggest resources that helped them and their child feel more prepared to deal with being targeted and treated meanly by another child, I would appreciate it. His dad and I have talked to him about being assertive when he needs to, keeping away from kids who act that way if possible, etc. But I know he responds well to videos and loves reading chapter books. I'm really hoping to find a couple applicable movies and/or books. That could be empowering.-=-
Talking to a child about being assertive when the parents can't be isn't as good as the parents living the way they want the child to live, and being the way they want the child to be.
The two questions above are quite schoolish, from the term "chapter book" to the apparent request for a curriculum, or materials that will "cover" the topic.
If people here know of good examples in movies or books that's fine with me, but I think living by principles, being available, being realistic, and assisting him as a partner in dealing with things as they come up is a better unschooling "method" than "finding resources" designed to teach or illustrate something.
Sandra
semajrak@...
<<After the second day, my son told me it was clear to him that another boy was being mean and specifically targeting him.>>
If this was my son, I would ask him if he wanted to go over some things he could say to the boy next time, to the teacher/coach before class, or if he would like me to come and observe, only stepping in with his permission.
When Ethan was younger, he usually asked me to step in for him or talk with the parent of the child involved. If I stepped in, I did my best not to embarrass anyone (especially Ethan), while being clear, brief and firm. I would (and still do) stick around most of the time (especially in new situations), so if he was having a hard time with a child or an adult, he could come over and sit with me for a bit. Usually when he comes over he doesn't say much. I think he just likes knowing he has that support while he thinks about what approach he wants to take. Sometimes I'll ask "Everything okay?" Sometimes he tells me what's going on. I'll ask if he wants my help. He'll say yes or no. I respect whichever answer he gives.
Over the past couple/few years, I've seen him step in when a friend was being treated unkindly. Sometimes he'll just go and stand beside the friend for support. Other times he'll speak up or act in the friend's interest. He doesn't seem to feel the need to come to anyone's rescue, but he will offer help and/or support if it looks like it would be appreciated. That's what I've done for him. I don't try to fix things for him, but I do try to help him come up with solutions that might work for him, and I do hang around, at least at first, to get a sense of the dynamic and whether or not he wants me to continue to be there.
<<I am looking for resources that have helped other unschoolers be better prepared to deal with bully/mean situations.>>
Stay calm. Be there for support. Treat every situation and every personal interaction uniquely and with due consideration. Talk with you son about how he feels and how he'd like to move forward. Don't take over. Help him move toward greater and greater confidence as each situation lends more information and more experience to future interactions and relationships.
Karen James