Misa Knight

We have one son, who will be seven in a few months. We've been trying
to eliminate parent-enforced bedtimes, something we've tried to do
before, with no luck.


The issue is that, typically, no matter what time he goes to sleep, he
wakes up at the same time (within a half hour timeframe, usually). But
it's very obvious that he's still tired a good chunk of the time.
There will be times where, if he sits down somewhere, he'll start
drifting to sleep and will force himself awake and get himself moving
so he doesn't fall asleep.


What has happened when we've tried this before is that, within a few
days, he's very emotional, blowing up at things that would normally
not be a big deal for him, and such. He gets cranky, rude, and mean
(as a lot of people do when they're very entired). Eventually, we
end up making him go to bed at the regular time again, because it's
obviously unpleasant for him and unpleasant for us, too. And I'd like
to not feel like we have to do that.


Nothing we say will encourage him to try to go back to sleep or even
just lie down. Aside from making everyone around him have a much
harder time, I want him to be happy, not miserable. And I feel like
all the outbursts, frustration, anger, etc. can't be making his life
better.


Did anyone else have this happen? Are we just not giving it enough
time? Any ideas to encourage him to go back to sleep if he's tired,
even if it's time he would "normally" be awake? Or to go to bed
earlier, if need be? Or at least to make the time he's awake be not as
unpleasant for all concerned?


Thanks,
Misa

Sandra Dodd

-=-Eventually, we
end up making him go to bed at the regular time again, because it's
obviously unpleasant for him and unpleasant for us, too. And I'd like
to not feel like we have to do that.-=-

You don't "have to."  That can be the starting place to breaking your cycle.

But he's six.  If he can't stay up by himself, he's too young for that anyway.

You have chosen to "eliminate parent-enforced bedtime," which I think means to tell him he can stay up as long as he wants.  If I'm wrong, it would help for you clarify (help you, and help the discussion :-)).

Going from one extreme to the other and back and forth isn't balance. It's thrashing.

Gradual changes for good reasons will make more sense that "eliminating" anything.  Provide more.  Don't eliminate.
Give, don't take away.

-=-Nothing we say will encourage him -=-

That is antagonism.  You trying to change him and him resisting.  It's not a description of a partnership.
"Have to" is powerlessness.  You feel you're powerless about taking away his options.  That's a lot of lack of power.

-=-Any ideas to encourage him to go back to sleep if he's tired,
even if it's time he would "normally" be awake? Or to go to bed
earlier, if need be? -=-

He's probably staying up late because he thinks you'll rescind the offer soon.  And he's been right at least once.  Twice?  More?


Sandra

Pam Sorooshian

Do you have to "make him go to bed" at the regular time? Can you not help him get to sleep at the regular time? 

Lower the lights. Lower the sound in the house. Have some cuddling time. Create a cozy space for him to watch an old movie or you read a book to him or something that will encourage falling asleep.

-pam

-pam

On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Misa Knight love2boardgame@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
We have one son, who will be seven in a few months. We've been trying
to eliminate parent-enforced bedtimes, something we've tried to do
before, with no luck.


The issue is that, typically, no matter what time he goes to sleep, he
wakes up at the same time (within a half hour timeframe, usually). But
it's very obvious that he's still tired a good chunk of the time.
There will be times where, if he sits down somewhere, he'll start
drifting to sleep and will force himself awake and get himself moving
so he doesn't fall asleep.


What has happened when we've tried this before is that, within a few
days, he's very emotional, blowing up at things that would normally
not be a big deal for him, and such. He gets cranky, rude, and mean
(as a lot of people do when they're very  entired).  Eventually, we
end up making him go to bed at the regular time again, because it's
obviously unpleasant for him and unpleasant for us, too. And I'd like
to not feel like we have to do that.


Nothing we say will encourage him to try to go back to sleep or even
just lie down. Aside from making everyone around him have a much
harder time, I want him to be happy, not miserable. And I feel like
all the outbursts, frustration, anger, etc. can't be making his life
better.


Did anyone else have this happen? Are we just not giving it enough
time? Any ideas to encourage him to go back to sleep if he's tired,
even if it's time he would "normally" be awake? Or to go to bed
earlier, if need be? Or at least to make the time he's awake be not as
unpleasant for all concerned?


Thanks,
Misa


------------------------------------
Posted by: Misa Knight <love2boardgame@...>
------------------------------------


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Misa Knight


<<

-=-Eventually, we
end up making him go to bed at the regular time again, because it's
obviously unpleasant for him and unpleasant for us, too. And I'd like
to not feel like we have to do that.-=-


You don't "have to."  That can be the starting place to breaking your cycle.

But he's six.  If he can't stay up by himself, he's too young for that anyway.
>>

The staying up part wasn't an issue. He was fairly respectful about noise levels (we talked about how we know there are kids who have to get up in the morning in the apartment next to us and below us, so we needed to respect that and be quiet).

But you're definitely right. We don't "have to".


<<
You have chosen to "eliminate parent-enforced bedtime," which I think means to tell him he can stay up as long as he wants.  If I'm wrong, it would help for you clarify (help you, and help the discussion :-)).
>>

We told him that we'd like him to learn to listen to his body about when he gets tired so he could stay up until he was tired.

Last night, insisted he wasn't tired. He stayed up a while, then went to "rest his body". He fell asleep but woke up about five or ten minutes later, when the light was turned off. At that point, he insisted that he hadn't fallen asleep (both he and his dad have a hard time recognizing when they've been asleep for a short period of time). Then, he got up and insisted on doing other things (playing and reading - both quietly). When we went to bed, he said he wasn't tired enough to go to bed. We asked him to play quietly in his room, with the lights off elsewhere (my husband can't sleep in the light and we leave our bedroom door open because it makes our son feel safer and allows the cats in and out). A few minutes later, he climbed into our bed.

<<

Going from one extreme to the other and back and forth isn't balance. It's thrashing.

Gradual changes for good reasons will make more sense that "eliminating" anything.  Provide more.  Don't eliminate.
Give, don't take away.
>>

I agree. Part of the reason I wrote was because we're trying not to bounce back and forth. Back when we first start trying to move in this direction, we'd let him stay in his room and play after bedtime routine (we each read him a chapter of a book), until he was sleepy. At first, it was a longer period of time, but after a week or so, he'd often go to bed within half an hour. Then there were some traumatic things happening elsewhere (this is was a year and half ago)  and all of a sudden, it did not work. He'd stay up until three or four in the morning, get up at seven or so, and we were all very unhappy. So we went back to regular bedtimes.

It seemed like all of that was behind us and we had less time commitments after we moved across the country, so that's why we decided to try this out. It seemed like there would be less of an impact here if sleep schedules were irregular for a while than there was in our previous home.

 <<
-=-Nothing we say will encourage him -=-

That is antagonism.  You trying to change him and him resisting.  It's not a description of a partnership.
"Have to" is powerlessness.  You feel you're powerless about taking away his options.  That's a lot of lack of power.

-=-Any ideas to encourage him to go back to sleep if he's tired,
even if it's time he would "normally" be awake? Or to go to bed
earlier, if need be? -=-

He's probably staying up late because he thinks you'll rescind the offer soon.  And he's been right at least once.  Twice?  More?


Sandra
>>

That makes a lot of sense. So, since we've already started this, do you think the better option be to continue doing it until he's no longer afraid we'll take away again? It seems like he'd have reason to worry about this even more if we stopped and tried it again another time.

- Misa

Misa Knight

> Do you have to "make him go to bed" at the regular time? Can you not help
> him get to sleep at the regular time?
>
> Lower the lights. Lower the sound in the house. Have some cuddling time.
> Create a cozy space for him to watch an old movie or you read a book to him
> or something that will encourage falling asleep.
>
> -pam

That's a really good idea. He will actually pinch himself to stay
awake or jump up so he's not falling asleep but maybe if it's
something cozy and enjoyable, he won't do that, and that could help a
lot.

- Misa

Sandra Dodd

-=-We told him that we'd like him to learn to listen to his body about when he gets tired so he could stay up until he was tired. -=-

Things would probably have gone better if you had not said "we would like for you to learn to listen to your body about when you get tired."

Let things happen because they happen, not because you assign it as something to do or think about.

I hope you aren't saying "We're reading to you because we would like for you to develop an appreciation for narrative, and the written word" and so forth.  Live a rich, happy life, and the learning will happen as a part of that.   The less you talk about it (or think about it) the smoother the learning will be.  Too much talking can bring learning to a halt, and it's not good for the relationship, either.

Sandra

Rinelle

> Did anyone else have this happen? Are we just not giving it enough
> time?
Any ideas to encourage him to go back to sleep if he's tired,
> even if
it's time he would "normally" be awake? Or to go to bed
> earlier, if need
be? Or at least to make the time he's awake be not as
> unpleasant for all
concerned?
I found it helped to make the bedroom dark (dark curtains etc), white noise, to minimise my daughter being disrupted by other people’s sounds/movement, and to give it time. We shifted gradually, which helped as well. My daughter was also more likely to go back to sleep when she stirred if I was there in bed with her!
 
You spoke of your son sleeping in another room, and I’m wondering if this is causing some of his reluctance to go to sleep? Has he always slept in his own room? Is he scared of monsters? (I remember six/seven being about the time my daughter suddenly got scared of monsters under the bed, and found it quite difficult to go to sleep for a year or two.)
 
I found it helpful to step away from using tiredness as an excuse whenever my daughter got upset. (Even if I felt tiredness was a factor.) When I could look at her upset and try to help her with it, instead of saying she wouldn’t be so upset if she just had enough sleep, then it removed some of the antagonism over going to sleep. She didn’t have anything to ‘prove’.
 
Because bedtimes had been such an issue for us, it did take time for us to make this shift. But now, a couple of years later, my daughter is quite happy to say she’s tired and wants to go to sleep. She also copes much better those days when she isn’t getting enough sleep, and catches up on another day without issues.
 
Tamara

Tiffani

When we had scheduled bed times I would bathe the kids help them with their teeth. Then we would cuddle and I would read to them. Then from youngest to oldest I would sit and talk about their day individually. We have 5 kids so this took a lot of time. We began right after dinner. Everyone was in bed by 9. Then we learn about unschooling and one day I announce okay all no more bedtime. "Yay!!!!" was everyones response. I just stopped doing everything I was doing. No more nighttime ritual. No more one on one time with Mom. Very quickly it all fell apart and I thought these people are all wrong. To have the family run smoothly and for me to get any rest we must have bedtime. And one of my sons said you were a great mom untill you listened to your friends. From his perspective it was not about giving up bedtime it was a loss of my attention.

So here is what I have learned in the past 7 years of learning about unschooling. Your children might go to be around 8pm they might stay up. You can still say hey kids let go get in the tub. When one kid is against going you can let that one not have a bath that night. Baths are not limited to bedtime. Remind them to brush and offer help if they like that. Offer a book and some snuggles. Offer conversation. Then the kids might fall asleep maybe not. They get filled up with your love. My youngest mostly falls asleep on my lap while I am watching tv. My kids are much older now. One has recently moved out 3 are teenagers and the youngest is 10.  

This was the hardest transition for me. For me in retrospect I did a bedtime ritual because I enjoyed it. We were connecting. I thought it was because I wanted to kids in bed at a specific time. So maybe you have taken some special time away from your son and that is why he is not settling into sleep. And maybe he is trying to see how long it will be before you take this new freedom away. I am not sure how long it took for it all to settle down here but I remember it feeling like a really long time. It was when I realized they were loosing connection with me that things became much smoother around here.

Tiffani

From: "Misa Knight love2boardgame@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Waking up at the same time each day

 
> Do you have to "make him go to bed" at the regular time? Can you not help
> him get to sleep at the regular time?
>
> Lower the lights. Lower the sound in the house. Have some cuddling time.
> Create a cozy space for him to watch an old movie or you read a book to him
> or something that will encourage falling asleep.
>
> -pam

That's a really good idea. He will actually pinch himself to stay
awake or jump up so he's not falling asleep but maybe if it's
something cozy and enjoyable, he won't do that, and that could help a
lot.

- Misa


Sandra@...

-=-Then we learn about unschooling and one day I announce okay all no more bedtime. "Yay!!!!" was everyones response.-=-

I wish somehow magically we could keep this from ever happening in any family ever again (and while it's magic…. go back and undo those where it fell out that way).

Saying "ummm… Sure!  Okay.  You can stay up another hour" is WAY more exciting than "Yesterday bedtime was important; now I don't care." :-)

Gradual change, and lots of "yes!" is the way to go.

Here's a short podcast by Amy Childs on bedtimes:


Adam Daniel is in there (he and his family will be speaking at the Albuquerque symposium in December.  Rose Sorooshian is, too.  (She's spoken the last two years, and plans to next year, but this year her family is otherwise occupied. :-) )

If you want to know more about those voices you're hearing there, here:
Adam Daniel

 

Rose Sorooshian

 

Brie Jontry talks about her daughter Noor, and bedtime:

Brie Jontry


(Wow!  My site matches that podcast quite well. :-) )


Sandra