Stacey Valnes

This perfectly put-together father with messy kids was at a car dealership yesterday looking at a new vehicles with his gorgeous beautiful pregnant (#5 ya’ll) wife.  Cadillac dealership.  Beautiful.  My 8, 5, and 3 we’re off to the races inside each dealership, running around, hopping in and out of any and every car they saw.  My 3 year old was simply following the older kids.  I could see how the salesmen were uncomfortable as was I.  They were told not to run and not to hop in and out of each and every car several times by me to no avail.  One it’s dangerous and two I feel it’s not cool to be running around a car dealership in this manner.  They were like pinballs having the time of their life. My wife thought this behavior was perfectly fine (how she was as a kid she says) and so here we are at the crossroads again.  Same crossroads as leaving trash everywhere (not messes), eating wherever with juicy sticky hands.  Not sure if I’m a controlling uptight person who needs to chill out or if running around a car dealership in this manner is  what I think it is, poor manners and disrespectful to the dealership and the people trying to do their jobs and customers trying to enjoy the new car experience.  

 

When my wife and I were out of sight for 10 minutes towards the end, the kids were hanging out in the kitchen area of the dealership, told to be cool, eat their dinner if they wanted (stopped and brought food), watch sponge bob (what they choose) and to not touch any of the coffee machines.  This lasted 5 minutes and when I walked past this area, I noticed the floor was soaking wet as well as the countertops, magazines, and about 10 cups were filled with water and overall just one big mess.  This cool because it doesn’t feel cool.

 

 

 

 


Joyce Fetteroll

From what you describe the kids weren't ready to be in a dealership without someone right near helping. Since your wife saw it differently -- either more tolerant of wild behavior or less sensitive to kid energy -- it would be your responsibility.

If you couldn't be with them -- because you were looking at cars -- the whole family needed to not be there.

Your'e telling us how your wife is failing to keep the kids in line to your standards. But she isn't a clone of you.

We can help you change yourself so you can live more peacefully with your wife and kids and help them live more respectfully with others. We can't help you change your wife so that she does it for you.

If she wants to ask for help in changing, people here can help her.

I'm sorry if somewhere somehow someone got the idea that unschooling was kids running about without someone right there with them to help them be more respectful. I'm sorry if somewhere somehow someone got the idea that unschooling meant kids would never drop things or have sticky fingers.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-so here we are at the crossroads again.-=-

What does "at the crossroads" mean to you?  Two days ago you were "at the crossroads" and today you are again?

-=-This perfectly put-together father ...-=-
-=-Perfect Father with Messy Kids-=-

If I say that you're seeing yourself as perfect, would you say I'm only talking about you and not your children?

I would not have taken the children to the dealership.  Get a babysitter. Find another family to leave with them next time. 

-=- Not sure if I’m a controlling uptight person who needs to chill out or if running around a car dealership in this manner is  what I think it is, poor manners and disrespectful to the dealership and the people trying to do their jobs and customers trying to enjoy the new car experience.  -=-

Those aren't the only two choices. 
And either of your two false-dichotomy extremes still leaves your wife to do all the parenting.

If you are not with your children enough to model and coach, then why are you thinking of yourself as a perfect father?  Nice clothes and clean hands aren't the important part of parenting.

-=-When my wife and I were out of sight for 10 minutes towards the end-=-

No one should leave children that young in someone else's place of business for ten minutes.  

-=- the kids were hanging out in the kitchen area of the dealership, told to be cool, eat their dinner if they wanted (stopped and brought food)-=-

I would not ever take food like that anywhere except a public park or my own home.  Not into a business.

-=-This lasted 5 minutes and when I walked past this area, I noticed the floor was soaking wet as well as the countertops, magazines, and about 10 cups were filled with water and overall just one big mess.  This cool because it doesn’t feel cool.-=-

It's not cool that you left young children that way.
It's not cool that you're writing to us two days with the same kinds of problems, instead of going through those links and trying to make the kinds of changes that would make your family life more peaceful and productive.

Sandra





Stacey Valnes

The “crossroads” is a difference of opinion between me and my wife.

I had a realization last night my wife and I fight about our differences (like whether it’s ok for kids to be running around a dealership) rather then searching for the solution, like not taking them with us next time.  We bickered on the way home from the dealership.

Me saying I thought the running around was not ok and my wife saying the running around was ok.  Not once did we discuss findng a solution.

 

I’m joking when referring to myself as perfect.  Although my wardrobe is top notch, filled with flavor, I am so far from perfect and perfect is not something I desire in me or anyone else.

 

Thanks for your responses.  Helpful.

 

 

 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 9:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Perfect Father with Messy Kids

 

 

-=-so here we are at the crossroads again.-=-

 

What does "at the crossroads" mean to you?  Two days ago you were "at the crossroads" and today you are again?

 

-=-This perfectly put-together father ...-=-

-=-Perfect Father with Messy Kids-=-

 

If I say that you're seeing yourself as perfect, would you say I'm only talking about you and not your children?

 

I would not have taken the children to the dealership.  Get a babysitter. Find another family to leave with them next time. 

 

-=- Not sure if I’m a controlling uptight person who needs to chill out or if running around a car dealership in this manner is  what I think it is, poor manners and disrespectful to the dealership and the people trying to do their jobs and customers trying to enjoy the new car experience.  -=-

 

Those aren't the only two choices. 

And either of your two false-dichotomy extremes still leaves your wife to do all the parenting.

 

If you are not with your children enough to model and coach, then why are you thinking of yourself as a perfect father?  Nice clothes and clean hands aren't the important part of parenting.

 

-=-When my wife and I were out of sight for 10 minutes towards the end-=-

 

No one should leave children that young in someone else's place of business for ten minutes.  

 

-=- the kids were hanging out in the kitchen area of the dealership, told to be cool, eat their dinner if they wanted (stopped and brought food)-=-

 

I would not ever take food like that anywhere except a public park or my own home.  Not into a business.

 

-=-This lasted 5 minutes and when I walked past this area, I noticed the floor was soaking wet as well as the countertops, magazines, and about 10 cups were filled with water and overall just one big mess.  This cool because it doesn’t feel cool.-=-

 

It's not cool that you left young children that way.

It's not cool that you're writing to us two days with the same kinds of problems, instead of going through those links and trying to make the kinds of changes that would make your family life more peaceful and productive.

 

Sandra

 

 

 

 


Deb Lewis

***I could see how the salesmen were uncomfortable as was I. ***
 
It is unreasonable to expect children to act like adults. It is unreasonable to take your children to a car dealership and not stay right with them all the time.  And if you’re thinking of getting a “beautiful” Cadillac that will be too good for your “messy” children you’re setting your family up for even more unhappiness. Get a used minivan. The “perfect” you won’t look as cool, but you’ll be less likely to have a public tantrum if your kids spill juice in the car.
 
If your kids are really active then take them places where they can be active and have fun. Don’t take them where they’re going to be disruptive, bored and ignored by you and then be surprised when they are active kids. 

You could have stayed at a park, playing with your kids and eating takeout while your wife looked at cars.  You could have skipped car shopping until you were alone.
 
If *you* did not care enough about the feelings of the staff at the dealership to help your kids be mannerly while you were there,  how can you expect little children to care?
They should not have been there with food.  You could have been sitting in your car with them while they ate.

And why did you “walk past” when you saw your children needed your help after you left them alone in the kitchen? I hope you stopped and cleaned up the spilled water. I hope you took responsibility and apologized to the staff. I hope you figured out that it’s not cool to leave your kids alone.
 
You are a parent. Live your life like your children matter. Don’t try to live like you don’t have children.  Take their feelings, needs and abilities into consideration with every choice you make. Every time you consider when and where to visit, eat, shop and when and where to take your children, expect to be their partner and helper, not a perfectly put together critic of children you intend to ignore.
 
Deb Lewis 
 
 

Pam Sorooshian


On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 9:48 AM, 'Deb Lewis' d.lewis@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
​<<​
You are a parent. Live your life like your children matter. Don’t try to live like you don’t have children. 
​>>​


​And stop blaming your wife. They are your children, too. Help them. Spend all the time with them that you can. Support your wife who, from your posts, appears not only to be raising some really high-energy kids by herself, but doing it under the pressure of your constant criticism and shaming.​ No wonder she feels defensive. And your children are bound to know what you think of them - how you claim to love them, but are really disgusted by them. The kids will pick up on that. 

Focus on changing yourself. Become a supportive and kind husband and father. Help them with love and kindness and gentleness. See their strengths and stop whining about them and step up and do your part. Get on the same team. 

-pam



-pam


Stacey Valnes

Wow…if you’re an example of unschoolling, no thanks.  What a finger pointing, judgemental email.

Hate for you to be my mom.  Yikes.  I have other words for you like the capital B word but I’ll refrain.

 

Maybe we thought it would be fun for all of us to go.  Maybe my wife doesn’t want to go without me being there.

 

You have no idea what I am like as a father to my children.  I happen to be super cool dad who works from home to be around his children when I could be at an office all day escaping.

 

 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 9:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Perfect Father with Messy Kids

 

 

***I could see how the salesmen were uncomfortable as was I. ***

 

It is unreasonable to expect children to act like adults. It is unreasonable to take your children to a car dealership and not stay right with them all the time.  And if you’re thinking of getting a “beautiful” Cadillac that will be too good for your “messy” children you’re setting your family up for even more unhappiness. Get a used minivan. The “perfect” you won’t look as cool, but you’ll be less likely to have a public tantrum if your kids spill juice in the car.

 

If your kids are really active then take them places where they can be active and have fun. Don’t take them where they’re going to be disruptive, bored and ignored by you and then be surprised when they are active kids. 

You could have stayed at a park, playing with your kids and eating takeout while your wife looked at cars.  You could have skipped car shopping until you were alone.

 

If *you* did not care enough about the feelings of the staff at the dealership to help your kids be mannerly while you were there,  how can you expect little children to care?

They should not have been there with food.  You could have been sitting in your car with them while they ate.

And why did you “walk past” when you saw your children needed your help after you left them alone in the kitchen? I hope you stopped and cleaned up the spilled water. I hope you took responsibility and apologized to the staff. I hope you figured out that it’s not cool to leave your kids alone.

 

You are a parent. Live your life like your children matter. Don’t try to live like you don’t have children.  Take their feelings, needs and abilities into consideration with every choice you make. Every time you consider when and where to visit, eat, shop and when and where to take your children, expect to be their partner and helper, not a perfectly put together critic of children you intend to ignore.

 

Deb Lewis 

 

 


Stacey Valnes

So many of the responses to my posts are filled with finger pointing, judgmental, clueless people.

To say I’m disgusted by my kids is so far from the truth and a reckless statement.  My kids are fricken awesome.  I’m disgusted by a lot of the responses and know it all’s.  We thought it would be fun to go together as a family and go car shopping and for the most part we had a blast being together for the day.  The kids wanted to go with us.  We laughed our butt off.  We could have left them with babysitters all day but wanted to be together.  My wife would never go to a dealership by herself.

 

I was simply reaching out to learn different solutions when things come up like my kids not being able to handle being at a car dealership.  I was not attacking my wife nor blaming her.  I said, she felt the running around was ok.  I didn’t.  No blame.  Just pointing out the difference of opinion.  Interesting how nobody shared this – how about one of you sit with the kids while one of you look at the cars and switch off.  I realize now, not taking the 5 and 8 together is probably the best solution or like I said one of us chilling with them while one of us looks at the car.  This way we can still be together and they don’t have to be stuck at home with a babysitter.

 

So much judgment and finger pointing.  Uugghh!

 


Stacey Valnes

And BTW I’m just learning about unschooling as is our family.  My world is pretty busy aside from our family.

Sounds like a lot of you get to do this full time.  I don’t have the same time as a lot of you.

I’m learning the woman are the responders and harsh with their

“you should do this” “ and you shouldn’t be like this” and blah blah blah.

 

If this is your world it doesn’t feel peaceful and loving.  It feels critical and harsh.


D. Regan

One of the wonderful things about being a parent is that you get to share in your children's lives.   You get to be there as they explore things, learn about things, make connections.   You get to understand them and know them.  And love them.  You get the chance to develop wonderful relationships with them.  The chance to enjoy them.

People whose focus is strongly on themselves and their own needs and desires, may find it harder to enjoy their kids, especially when the children are needing attention or assistance.   The children's needs are competing with the parent's needs.  It takes some time and dedication to get to being comfortable focussing outside of oneself, but doing so will bring more peace, and better relationships with your children, and others.

It may help to reflect on any unmet needs from the past which may be driving current self-centred habits.  
It will help to take as many moments as you can to stop and really try to see things you'd normally pass over.  Take time to notice the child who is nearby.  What is their focus, what are they interested in, what are they doing, what do they love?   Are they tired? wanting engagement? absorbed? lost? contented? antsy?...

Help to make things work well for them, as much as you can.  Don't set things up so that you take them to a new and interesting place like a car dealership, and then repeatedly tell them not to run.  It won't work - for them, or you, or the dealership.  If you see things from their perspectives, you will know that they will want to run and explore in a car dealership, and that that's not going to work well.  So you'll arrange things differently.

When you care about and relate to their perspectives, you will be better able to support them as they grow and learn.  And you will feel less frustrated and burdened.     

Debbie.


This perfectly put-together father with messy kids was at a car dealership yesterday looking at a new vehicles with his gorgeous beautiful pregnant (#5 ya’ll) wife.  Cadillac dealership.  Beautiful.  My 8, 5, and 3 we’re off to the races inside each dealership, running around, hopping in and out of any and every car they saw.  My 3 year old was simply following the older kids.  I could see how the salesmen were uncomfortable as was I.  They were told not to run and not to hop in and out of each and every car several times by me to no avail.  One it’s dangerous and two I feel it’s not cool to be running around a car dealership in this manner.  They were like pinballs having the time of their life. My wife thought this behavior was perfectly fine (how she was as a kid she says) and so here we are at the crossroads again.  Same crossroads as leaving trash everywhere (not messes), eating wherever with juicy sticky hands.  Not sure if I’m a controlling uptight person who needs to chill out or if running around a car dealership in this manner is  what I think it is, poor manners and disrespectful to the dealership and the people trying to do their jobs and customers trying to enjoy the new car experience.  
 
When my wife and I were out of sight for 10 minutes towards the end, the kids were hanging out in the kitchen area of the dealership, told to be cool, eat their dinner if they wanted (stopped and brought food), watch sponge bob (what they choose) and to not touch any of the coffee machines.  This lasted 5 minutes and when I walked past this area, I noticed the floor was soaking wet as well as the countertops, magazines, and about 10 cups were filled with water and overall just one big mess.  This cool because it doesn’t feel cool.


Sandra Dodd

-=-Hate for you to be my mom. Yikes. I have other words for you like the capital B word but I’ll refrain-=-

You should have refrained from writing "You come off like the biggest know it all bitch. You don’t anything about me or my family." to one of the people who posted in this topic, trying to help you.

When someone writes in public, for you to write an attack in private e-mail is the equivalent of following someone home from a public meeting and attacking her in her own entryway. It is not honorable. It is not noble. It's MUCH worse than anything and everything you have told thousands of strangers that your children do.

-=-Hate for you to be my mom. Yikes. -=-

I am not in any way offering to be your mom. I was the mother of three people who agreed (generously, knowing what they were doing) for me to share stories of their lives in public so that other parents would be nicer to their own children. And that I've done, since La Leche League meetings, and asked them when the stories were potentially embarrassing, and they always thought a bit and said okay, because they know that there ARE people who want to be more present and more mindful with their children, and that they benefit from stories of successful partnerships within families.

You had a mom. Either it was great and you should do just like that, or it wasn't so great and you should do better. Complaining and blaming and insulting people here is not helping you or your children or your marriage.

Sandra

fundayeveryday

Funny- I was just sitting at my computer reading the recent responses from Deb and Pam thinking how perfectly eloquent they were and how the contributors are always right-on target in their responses. The writers here are amazingly intelligent in their knowledge of child psychology, adult psychology, and parenting. It is a shame how a well- intentioned helpful response can be taken so bitterly. The tone of the responses from contributors here have been calm,kind, and loving. Hopefully, the original poster will do some deep breathing and internal soul searching, calm down, and be at peace with his family.


On Sunday, August 31, 2014 2:58 PM, "Stacey Valnes staceyvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
And BTW I’m just learning about unschooling as is our family.  My world is pretty busy aside from our family.
Sounds like a lot of you get to do this full time.  I don’t have the same time as a lot of you.
I’m learning the woman are the responders and harsh with their
“you should do this” “ and you shouldn’t be like this” and blah blah blah.
 
If this is your world it doesn’t feel peaceful and loving.  It feels critical and harsh.



Sandra Dodd

-=-To say I’m disgusted by my kids is so far from the truth and a reckless statement. -=-

Reckless in what way?
Are you threatening us?

To write in such a way that others perceived you to be disgusted by your children was very literally reckless.  I did try to shield you from your intent to badmouth your family in an identifiable way, but you didn't want to be protected.

It would be good for you to stop sharing your personal shortcomings as a father in public if you don't want ideas or assistance.

-=- I’m disgusted by a lot of the responses and know it all’s. -=-

You were not court-ordered to join this discussion, nor to post, nor to read.
If you're not careful, you might find yourself being court-0rdered to support your children from afar.  You are doing and writing things that are not conducive to family peace and togetherness (as several experienced, married, successful unschoolers have generously pointed out).  

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-We thought it would be fun to go together as a family and go car shopping and for the most part we had a blast being together for the day.  The kids wanted to go with us.  We laughed our butt off.  We could have left them with babysitters all day but wanted to be together.  My wife would never go to a dealership by herself-=-

And then you thought it would be fun to ruin the whole thing by writing here and complaining about your kids' behavior.

-=-I was simply reaching out to learn different solutions when things come up like my kids not being able to handle being at a car dealership.  I was not attacking my wife nor blaming her.  I said, she felt the running around was ok.  I didn’t.  No blame. -=-

We can read what you write better than you can.  You were not "simply" doing anything. 
It's not about "solutions."  It's about you becoming a better father.   You had NO time to read and try the things people had written or sent links for.  Nothing going to change in two days.  

Nothing is EVER going to change if you yourself do not change you yourself.

-=-like my kids not being able to handle being at a car dealership-=-

YOU, the adult, were not able to handle having four children at a car dealership.
The failure was not in your children.

-=- Interesting how nobody shared this – how about one of you sit with the kids while one of you look at the cars and switch off. -=-

Interesting that you want strangers to tell you how to be with children you've had for years.

How about you hold the hand of one child and carry another one?  How about you hire a teen to go with you, if you won't want the to "have to be stuck at home with a babysitter."  Being at home with games and someone new to play with would be worlds better than being set up to fail, again, by a father who criticizes his children in public.

-=-So much judgment and finger pointing.  Uugghh!-=-

Denial and delusion.

Sandra



Sandra Dodd

-=-The tone of the responses from contributors here have been calm,kind, and loving.-=-

I thought so, too, and thank you for your post as well, Kristen.

The reason I didn't mind letting a few more posts through, even though they were hateful and ranting, is that perhaps others will appreciate the progress they have made in their own lives, when they see someone flailing and frothing.

-=-Hopefully, the original poster will do some deep breathing and internal soul searching, calm down, and be at peace with his family.-=-

For the sake of his children and his wife, I hope so, too.  It's not a very peaceful nest for a new baby to be born into.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-You don’t anything about me or my family.-=-

We know a LOT about you.
I know more than you've written, because your wife and a friend have written, too.
None of it impresses me at all, and you're batting away suggestions that would help you immediately.

-=-You have no idea what I am like as a father to my children. I happen to be super cool dad -=-

You happen to be delusional and arrogant.

There are thousands of people subscribed to this discussion. Even if only hundreds are reading, no super cool dad would badmouth his children (and by extension their pregnant mother) as you have been doing. Denial won't save you. It is in cut-and-pasteable form. It is in forwardable form. Perhaps you should print it all out and take it with you, when you go to a counselor. It would do you good to read it when it's cold, when you're calm, when you actually do stop lashing out and start looking in.

-=-I happen to be super cool dad -=-

You could become one, if you would stop thinking of yourself as super cool and perfect (joking or not, you wrote the word twice, and mailed it to thousands). Your arrogance will keep you from learning. Your denial will make you blind in a time you will never get back again.

You can ruin the lives of seven people, or you can change. What you have described to us, what you have confessed of your action and thought, is a story of ruination.

-=-You don’t anything about me or my family.-=-

You've told us that your marriage sucks and you are at the crossroads again. Crossroads of what? What "crossroads" means is not a disagreement, but a choice of direction. You can make better choices, or you can choose to continue on the downward path you've described to us.

http://sandradodd.com/choice

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

On Aug 31, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Stacey Valnes staceyvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> They were told not to run and not to hop in and out of each and every car several times by me to no avail.

Their actions were saying, "We can't."

> Maybe we thought it would be fun for all of us to go. Maybe my wife doesn’t want to go without me being there.

There aren't magical words that unschoolers have that will make children listen.

The most powerful parenting skill unschoolers have is listening to a partner and kids. Your kids were saying, "We have a lot of energy! We need a way to burn it off!"

If your kids had said with words, "We have a lot of energy! We need a way to burn it off! What ideas do you have, Dad?" what ideas would you have for them? A stop at a playground? Several playgrounds if there were several dealerships? McDonald's Playspace? Letting your wife take them to a safe place to run around once they reached the "Too much" point?

The second most powerful parenting tool is creativity. Which sometimes means bailing on plans when kids show they can't handle it.

Kids often don't speak their needs in words. Their communication is in actions, tone and body language. Learning to understand that language is a big step towards helping them. Even better is learning that language they communicate in before they reach the "We're way beyond listening!" stage.

Joyce

Deb Lewis

***Maybe we thought it would be fun for all of us to go. Maybe my wife
doesn’t want to go without me being there.***

It is great to do things with your kids. But knowing they're active kids and
knowing that you'd want to talk to dealers and not just look with your kids,
it wasn't great judgment on your part to choose car shopping as a family
outing. There are kid friendly places you can go. Places where children are
welcome and not expected to act like little adults. Next time you want fun
for the whole family, make sure the destination is a place for your kids.
When you want to go somewhere that's not a good fit for four active
children, change your plans, or go alone.

Deb Lewis

Pam Sorooshian


On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 12:20 PM, fundayeveryday kristenssrr@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

​>>​
The tone of the responses from contributors here have been calm,kind, and loving.
​>>

Well, also increasingly blunt.
>>​
Hopefully, the original poster will do some deep breathing and internal soul searching, calm down, and be at peace with his family.
​<<

I was hoping he wouldn't reject everything said, but read it over and over and let it sink in how he is coming across and what he, himself, could do to make life better for his family.

Blaming other people gets you nowhere. When your focus is on trying to change others, it lets you avoid seeing your own problems. Ironically, others CAN change, too, if you stop trying to change them and only work on making changes in yourself.

-pam




semajrak@...

<<I could see how the salesmen were uncomfortable as was I.>>

If you could see that the salesmen were uncomfortable and you did nothing to remedy that, what are your children learning?  That it's okay to ignore the discomfort you are bringing to another person, even when you are in their space?  That it's okay to continue doing whatever we want, even when we risk causing damage to property, our own reputation, and the reputation and credibility of the people in our company?  

Learning happens all the time.  Understanding this will move you closer to unschooling well, and will help you cultivate respectful relationships with your wife, your children *and* the people in your community.  Your example matters.  The way you talk to and about people matters.  The way you treat people matters.  Your children will learn from how you interact in the world.  When you model respect, thoughtfulness and integrity, your children will learn how to be respectful, thoughtful, and honourable young people.  What are your goals for your children?  Fun is wonderful.  Fun at all costs is careless and irresponsible.  

I've said to Ethan when he was younger: "This isn't a playground.  I'll take you to a place to climb and run as soon as we leave.  Can I just have a few more minutes to look around?"  Sometimes he was too excited to give me a few more minutes, so we would just leave.  Sometimes I was given a bit more time.  Then I would take him to the playground of his choosing, and I would run around and play with him for as long as he wanted or for as much time or energy as I had to do so.

If it were me, I might think about where I *could* bring my kids to have some car exploration fun.  Maybe bumper cars or car rides at state fairs.  Maybe a car show.  Coin operated cars used to be more popular than they are now, I think.  Car simulation games in arcades are fun.  Sounds like you have a little money to spend if you're shopping for Cadillacs.  So, maybe remote controlled cars would be fun.  Toy cars.  Ride in cars.  If I wanted to make an outing of shopping for cars (I know Ethan would think that was fun), I would let him and any other children in my care know ahead of time what I and the business expected of them.  If they were too excited to be respectful, I would leave.  Not angrily, but in a "Yeah, this isn't going to work" kind of way.  

Maybe it's the store environment that your kids enjoyed.  I've been to quite a few children's museums that have mock stores in them.  Perhaps there is one in your area.  The kids could  run around a bit more there. They would still need some guidance in accommodating other people's preferences for play.  You could make a store at home.  My own son loved to do this when he was young.  I saved cereal boxes and milk cartons, recovered yogurt cups, refilled jars with non-perishable items.  We had a couple cash registers, and some homemade and pretend money.  We made signs and price tags.  We made storefronts out of large cardboard boxes.  We made food out of play dough.  And, we played for hours and hours this way.  While we played, we acted out scenarios.  

The next time I went to a business with my kids, I would come with a bag full of activities to do -- a tablet, a portable dvd player, colouring books, picture books, origami, a couple stuffed toys or other little playthings -- things I knew my kids would enjoy while they waited.  I would plan for one of us to sit with the kids and keep them happy while the other one looked around.  Maybe one or two of the children could come with the parent who was looking around, but only on the condition they could be calm and respectful.   

I'll say this again, because it really is crucial to fully appreciating unschooling...Learning happens all the time.  That goes not only for your kids, but for yourself too.  Take a moment to reflect on what people have shared with you here.  I sincerely hope you trust me when I say the insights people have shared with you come from the goodness of their hearts.  People here want you to succeed.  They want you to have a rich relationship with your wife and your kids.  You *can* be the coolest dad *and* the best example for them of a decent human being at the same time.  Please stop calling these wonderful people unkind names.  Calm down a bit.  There is a richness to this life that you will miss if you can't see past your defenses.

Karen James.

kgharriman1@...

I think when you're learning about unschooling, and we have really only been learning about unschooling since the end of last year, there's a tendency to slip into permissive or anything goes parenting. Saying yes more often CAN slip into "I have to say yes somehow to everything or I am not doing this right". I have been there and done that and recognise that this is certainly NOT getting it at all. 

So, I come back to working with the idea of "living like school doesn't exist" which brings unschooling for me back to just that, living with our kids together AND the wonderful principle of treating your children as you would a guest in your house. That one always brings home the whole thing for me.

Nowhere in these ideas are there implications that your children can do what they want when they want, or they can run riot anywhere. That's not respectful. Now does it doesn't mean we leave them to drop wrappers everywhere and complain about it. Usually we pick them up because, like the girls bedroom, it seems too much to expect and I know that just because they're dropping wrappers now doesn't mean they will drop them when they're an adult. Right now they're busy playing and learning and often forget to find the bin or get distracted or whatever.  

anna.black@...

My family recently went car shopping so your message felt familiar,  I have two children, 4 and 7.  

They were interested in the cars for a short time, and when they stopped being interested I took them to play in the little cafe/play area the dealership had thoughtfully provided.  We had hot chocolates, and played for a little while.  When my husband wanted my opinion, we switched, and he played with the girls,  

When my four year old had really had enough, I took the two of them to a nearby McDonalds to get dinner and play.  My husband joined us when all the paperwork was finished.  It was fun, we had a lovely time and bought a new car.  

What I didn't do at all was leave my children alone for even a minute.  They could damage a new car.  They could get hurt climbing.  They could irritate other people there looking at cars.  They could need my help for all kinds of things.  They could wander out of the door into the road.  

I was pleased when we were asked why our kids weren't at school as I like being able to tell people we homeschool/unschool, because I think my children are lovely, polite unschool ambassadors. I don't expect more  than is reasonabl from them, and in public I am right with them all the time to help them navigate and be respectful.  

Unschooling means more attention and engagement from parents, not less.  It's one of the reasons I stopped at two, as I know my limits and I'm not sure I could comfortably provide the level of engagement necessary to do unschooling well with more.  

CASS KOTRBA

-=- So many of the responses to my posts are filled with finger pointing, judgmental, clueless people.-=-
 
You misunderstand our intention.  You wrote to us claiming that your home life is a mess.  You are a complete stranger to us so the only details we know are those that you've provided.  The words that you use to describe yourself & your situation tell us much more than you realize.  We are trying to help you pull it all apart & think it through.  We do it with love in our hearts, not a feeling of judgment or superiority.
 
Have you ever gone fishing?  Have you ever had your line miserably tangled all in on itself?  Our internal worlds are kinda like that fishing line.  As we grow, depending on our environment, often times that line gets tangled and confused.  It sounds like you had the type of childhood that many of us had, lots of opportunities for tangling and knotting.  The more we thrash around in anger the tighter those knots get.  What we are suggesting to you is to stop thrashing and look at the fishing line inside of you.  Can you feel how tangled and confused it is?  Maybe you can't because it is the only internal world you have ever had.  I've been there and I know how miserable & uncomfortable it is when everything is all tangled up and I have also experienced the calm, peaceful relief that comes from sorting it out.  What we are suggesting to you are tools to help you start untangling.  No one here has any ill will toward you.  We would love to see you be successful in turning things around.  That is the reason we take time out of our full and busy lives to help a stranger.  Not because we want to feel superior, because we genuinely want to help you and your family get to a better place. 
 
When Sandra suggested that you see a therapist that is her way of saying that you might benefit from having a third party help you untangle some of the bigger knots.  Not because something is "wrong" with you and you are "imperfect".  Healing is not a punishment, it is a gift.  In our family we have found a variety of energetic healing techniques that have been helpful.  But you don't NEED an external person to help you.  And no amount of expensive therapy can help someone who isn't willing to take in that insight & do the work.  I have said it before in other posts, the advice given on this list is the best therapy that money can't buy.  But we can't do it for you.  You can choose to take the words and think them through, try to untangle all these jumbled up thoughts, or you can choose to turn your back and walk away. 
 
My suggestion to you would be to take a step back from the words that have been written in response to your posts.  Save those posts but do not read them again now.  Start reading other, less emotionally charged stuff.  Read words written to other people so it doesn't seem so personal & emotionally charged.  Read the pages from Sandra and Joyce's sites that appeal to you.  http://sandradodd.com/unschooling.html  http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/ Read other people's questions to this group and listen to the responses.  Are there things that you can learn that you can apply to yourself?
 
-=- My kids are fricken awesome.-=-
 
Remind yourself of that while you are reading.  Bring the words you read inside of your psyche & see what you can uncover.  Remind yourself that whatever baggage you are carrying you will pass on to your kids.  You don't want them to be saddled with all the crap that you got, do you?  Of course you don't.  Be brave, be fearless.  Every time you heal something within yourself or have one of those amazing "light bulb moments" you are giving your family a huge gift that no amount of money can buy.
 
After you've had some time to think & reflect, after the emotions stop feeling so raw - then go back and reread your posts to us and our responses.  Hopefully you will see something entirely different at that time.  You would certainly not be the first to get offended and mad initially then come back later with a different perspective.  All the answers you seek have been written about many times and are in the archives or on those pages that I linked. 
 
I think the best advice is to read a little, wait a little, try a little, watch.  The goal, in my mind at least, is to try not to pass those tangled messes on to your kids.  Try to give them a nice straight, strong line to take with them into adulthood.  The more you work on yourself now the less your kids will be burdened with in the future. 
 
Best of luck,
Cass

Stacey Valnes

Yep, if we could do it again we would do the switch routine.  Figured this out yesterday by thinking it through because…

What most posters missed is the decision to be with our children for the day instead of leaving them home with a babysitter (where they would not want to be and where we could have easily left them if we wanted to “IGNORE” them).  80% of the time we were cruising from dealership to dealership having a blast in the car, singing, laughing.  We love cars.  The only time the kids were out of sight was the 10 minutes in the kitchen play are where from past experience we thought the kids could handle it.  This area was in the back of the dealership and open to the showroom so many ways even here they were never out of sight.  I’m extremely aware of where my children are at all times.  We’re a car family and we wanted the kids with us as did they.  I do not regret the experience and neither does my wife and kids.  Overall we had such a blast and the kids were part of the car buying experience we even though we didn’t come close to buying a car nor did we ever test drive a car.  So many of the posts were harsh-filled judgments saying the kids were “ignored”, I would “never” finger pointing posts like we committed some crime when I was simply looking for a solution, which you have offered and I had already figured out as I like having my kids around me – why I choose to work from home when I can work from anywhere on the planet.

 

 

Stacey “Johnny” Valnes

 

“Hub” (our new RE studio) opens Nov 15 | 6pm

 

310 390 6280 | stacey@...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 9:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Perfect Father with Messy Kids

 

 

My family recently went car shopping so your message felt familiar,  I have two children, 4 and 7.  

 

They were interested in the cars for a short time, and when they stopped being interested I took them to play in the little cafe/play area the dealership had thoughtfully provided.  We had hot chocolates, and played for a little while.  When my husband wanted my opinion, we switched, and he played with the girls,  

 

When my four year old had really had enough, I took the two of them to a nearby McDonalds to get dinner and play.  My husband joined us when all the paperwork was finished.  It was fun, we had a lovely time and bought a new car.  

 

What I didn't do at all was leave my children alone for even a minute.  They could damage a new car.  They could get hurt climbing.  They could irritate other people there looking at cars.  They could need my help for all kinds of things.  They could wander out of the door into the road.  

 

I was pleased when we were asked why our kids weren't at school as I like being able to tell people we homeschool/unschool, because I think my children are lovely, polite unschool ambassadors. I don't expect more  than is reasonabl from them, and in public I am right with them all the time to help them navigate and be respectful.  

 

Unschooling means more attention and engagement from parents, not less.  It's one of the reasons I stopped at two, as I know my limits and I'm not sure I could comfortably provide the level of engagement necessary to do unschooling well with more.  


Sandra Dodd

-=-Yep, if we could do it again we would do the switch routine. -=-

You will have many opportunities to do "it" in the future—to find ways to be close by your children.

-=-What most posters missed is ...-=-

You keep acting like you paid us $800 for a summary analysis of your bad day and you're not going to hire our think-tank in the future.  We're talking about what will help radical unschooling work well in your family.  That's ALL this discussion group is about, and it's all it ever was about.  

Improving your own awareness will help you, your children and your wife. 
We aren't missing anything.

What are the odds that you ARE missing the purpose and intention of the responses to your writing?  (I won't say questions, because pretty much you're telling stories of how put-upon and embarrassed you are, and how much better you are, and what a fantastic dad you are, and people are suggesting that you put that energy into seeing how great your wife and children are, and doing things for and with them, lovingly, patiently, sweetly, as many moments every day as you can for at least the next 18 years.   You seem to want input about some OTHER matter, but there is no other matter.

-=-So many of the posts were harsh-filled judgments saying the kids were “ignored”-=-

You weren't there when water was spilled.   Ten minutes is a long, long time as regards a child's safety, and the safety of someone else's property.

-=-I would “never” finger pointing posts-=-

If you would read through what you write, it would help you to see what you're expressing, and to see where you've left words out or written faster than you're thinking.  Lots of people are reading these things without posting.  

But you wrote many finger-pointing posts.  You were pointing at your wife's and children's flaws and shortcomings.

-=-... like we committed some crime when I was simply looking for a solution-=-

The solution has been offered to you over and over and over and over and over and over and over, but you're not thinking about your children so much as you are thinking about what a great guy YOU are.  That's not a crime, but it leads away from being an unschooling dad, and not toward.  It leads away from being a good husband, and not toward.

-=- I like having my kids around me – why I choose to work from home when I can work from anywhere on the planet.-=-

You are expressing this image:  YOU have the whole PLANET!  But your children have only your home, where you graciously stay (in your room upstairs, hoping they don't show up in there with their sticky fingers).

A much better way to see unschoolins is that you can give your children the whole planet, and work where you need to work in order to give them experiences they wouldn't have if they were in school.

And then you left your work links at the bottom of your e-mail, as I've asked you twice not to do.

Stacey, as much as it is helping some people to see how far you will go to defend yourself, it would be better for you and your family if you stopped posting and started working on making some of the changes people have suggested, and reading some of the webpages and sites people have linked here.

Here's another one, from yesterday, on Pam Sorooshian's blog:

Sandra



Stacey Valnes

You’re assuming I did nothing.  How do you know I did nothing?  More finger pointing,  assumptions.  Of course I spoke with my children, teaching them.  You speak to me like I’m a caveman.  I happen to be extremely successful.  My success is based on my relationships with people.  My life is spent being of service to my clients, family, and friends. 

My original post was asking a question – is it ok for my children to run around wild at a car dealership.  That’s it.  My wife and I seem to have a difference of opinion on these matters and I’m simply trying to learn what unschoolers think about certain situations.

The judgment, assumptions, criticism is a big turn off.

 

 

<<I could see how the salesmen were uncomfortable as was I.>>

 

If you could see that the salesmen were uncomfortable and you did nothing to remedy that, what are your children learning?  That it's okay to ignore the discomfort you are bringing to another person, even when you are in their space?  That it's okay to continue doing whatever we want, even when we risk causing damage to property, our own reputation, and the reputation and credibility of the people in our company?  

 

Learning happens all the time.  Understanding this will move you closer to unschooling well, and will help you cultivate respectful relationships with your wife, your children *and* the people in your community.  Your example matters.  The way you talk to and about people matters.  The way you treat people matters.  Your children will learn from how you interact in the world.  When you model respect, thoughtfulness and integrity, your children will learn how to be respectful, thoughtful, and honourable young people.  What are your goals for your children?  Fun is wonderful.  Fun at all costs is careless and irresponsible.  

 

I've said to Ethan when he was younger: "This isn't a playground.  I'll take you to a place to climb and run as soon as we leave.  Can I just have a few more minutes to look around?"  Sometimes he was too excited to give me a few more minutes, so we would just leave.  Sometimes I was given a bit more time.  Then I would take him to the playground of his choosing, and I would run around and play with him for as long as he wanted or for as much time or energy as I had to do so.

 

If it were me, I might think about where I *could* bring my kids to have some car exploration fun.  Maybe bumper cars or car rides at state fairs.  Maybe a car show.  Coin operated cars used to be more popular than they are now, I think.  Car simulation games in arcades are fun.  Sounds like you have a little money to spend if you're shopping for Cadillacs.  So, maybe remote controlled cars would be fun.  Toy cars.  Ride in cars.  If I wanted to make an outing of shopping for cars (I know Ethan would think that was fun), I would let him and any other children in my care know ahead of time what I and the business expected of them.  If they were too excited to be respectful, I would leave.  Not angrily, but in a "Yeah, this isn't going to work" kind of way.  

 

Maybe it's the store environment that your kids enjoyed.  I've been to quite a few children's museums that have mock stores in them.  Perhaps there is one in your area.  The kids could  run around a bit more there. They would still need some guidance in accommodating other people's preferences for play.  You could make a store at home.  My own son loved to do this when he was young.  I saved cereal boxes and milk cartons, recovered yogurt cups, refilled jars with non-perishable items.  We had a couple cash registers, and some homemade and pretend money.  We made signs and price tags.  We made storefronts out of large cardboard boxes.  We made food out of play dough.  And, we played for hours and hours this way.  While we played, we acted out scenarios.  

 

The next time I went to a business with my kids, I would come with a bag full of activities to do -- a tablet, a portable dvd player, colouring books, picture books, origami, a couple stuffed toys or other little playthings -- things I knew my kids would enjoy while they waited.  I would plan for one of us to sit with the kids and keep them happy while the other one looked around.  Maybe one or two of the children could come with the parent who was looking around, but only on the condition they could be calm and respectful.   

 

I'll say this again, because it really is crucial to fully appreciating unschooling...Learning happens all the time.  That goes not only for your kids, but for yourself too.  Take a moment to reflect on what people have shared with you here.  I sincerely hope you trust me when I say the insights people have shared with you come from the goodness of their hearts.  People here want you to succeed.  They want you to have a rich relationship with your wife and your kids.  You *can* be the coolest dad *and* the best example for them of a decent human being at the same time.  Please stop calling these wonderful people unkind names.  Calm down a bit.  There is a richness to this life that you will miss if you can't see past your defenses.

 

Karen James.


Stacey Valnes

It was not a bad day.  Another critical judgment, assumption.  Did you no read my posts.  I said we had a blast.

Even when the kids were running riot, the joy they were experiencing was priceless.  They were acting like children.

 

 

 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2014 8:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Perfect Father with Messy Kids

 

 

-=-Yep, if we could do it again we would do the switch routine. -=-

 

You will have many opportunities to do "it" in the future—to find ways to be close by your children.

 

-=-What most posters missed is ...-=-

 

You keep acting like you paid us $800 for a summary analysis of your bad day and you're not going to hire our think-tank in the future.  We're talking about what will help radical unschooling work well in your family.  That's ALL this discussion group is about, and it's all it ever was about.  

 

Improving your own awareness will help you, your children and your wife. 

We aren't missing anything.

 

What are the odds that you ARE missing the purpose and intention of the responses to your writing?  (I won't say questions, because pretty much you're telling stories of how put-upon and embarrassed you are, and how much better you are, and what a fantastic dad you are, and people are suggesting that you put that energy into seeing how great your wife and children are, and doing things for and with them, lovingly, patiently, sweetly, as many moments every day as you can for at least the next 18 years.   You seem to want input about some OTHER matter, but there is no other matter.

 

-=-So many of the posts were harsh-filled judgments saying the kids were “ignored”-=-

 

You weren't there when water was spilled.   Ten minutes is a long, long time as regards a child's safety, and the safety of someone else's property.

 

-=-I would “never” finger pointing posts-=-

 

If you would read through what you write, it would help you to see what you're expressing, and to see where you've left words out or written faster than you're thinking.  Lots of people are reading these things without posting.  

 

But you wrote many finger-pointing posts.  You were pointing at your wife's and children's flaws and shortcomings.

 

-=-... like we committed some crime when I was simply looking for a solution-=-

 

The solution has been offered to you over and over and over and over and over and over and over, but you're not thinking about your children so much as you are thinking about what a great guy YOU are.  That's not a crime, but it leads away from being an unschooling dad, and not toward.  It leads away from being a good husband, and not toward.

 

-=- I like having my kids around me – why I choose to work from home when I can work from anywhere on the planet.-=-

 

You are expressing this image:  YOU have the whole PLANET!  But your children have only your home, where you graciously stay (in your room upstairs, hoping they don't show up in there with their sticky fingers).

 

A much better way to see unschoolins is that you can give your children the whole planet, and work where you need to work in order to give them experiences they wouldn't have if they were in school.

 

And then you left your work links at the bottom of your e-mail, as I've asked you twice not to do.

 

Stacey, as much as it is helping some people to see how far you will go to defend yourself, it would be better for you and your family if you stopped posting and started working on making some of the changes people have suggested, and reading some of the webpages and sites people have linked here.

 

Here's another one, from yesterday, on Pam Sorooshian's blog:

 

Sandra

 

 


Sandra Dodd

-=-You’re assuming I did nothing.  How do you know I did nothing?  More finger pointing,  assumptions.  Of course I spoke with my children, teaching them.-=-

You complained one day about your childrens' behavior, and came back two days later with similar complaints.
We assumed you had not read the suggestions, or didn't realize that "be with your children more" which was suggested about the food in the house complaints would apply two days later at a Cadillac dealership.

We know you "did nothing" because you TOLD us what your kids were doing and what you thought about it.
People reacted to what you chose to express.

-=-Of course I spoke with my children, teaching them.-=-

This is the best thing you've written.  It will help you turn a corner, if you will consider what you've just shown us.

If you think that telling a child what to do it "teaching him" and that's what unschooling needs, turn away from that.
All learning happens in the learner.  What your children learn will be gradually, and not from "being taught," but from learning in real ways, from parents being right with them, setting a good example, talking about WHY it's better to do one thing than another, and when and where what sorts of behavior is appropriate, and why, and helping them behave appropriately, directly, thousands of moments, not one incident of "teaching."

If you replace "teaching" with "learning" everyime you write, speak or think "teach," you will move toward unschooling.  ALL we care about here is helping you move toward unschooling. 

Sandra



Joyce Fetteroll


On Sep 1, 2014, at 10:49 AM, Stacey Valnes staceyvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

What most posters missed is the decision to be with our children for the day

I can guarantee that no one thought the children just followed you ;-)

But one value of the list is that outsiders are better able to see the situation through the kids' eyes without the parent emotions getting in their way. Parents can get stuck on how they want the day to go and miss that the kids can't yet handle it. 

The list won't work as well if we're required to limit answers to what the parents want for the kids. Because sometimes what sounds like a great idea in theory doesn't work out in practice. And sometimes parents get stuck in a loop without being able to see that what they want isn't the only option.

What you can then do is ignore the ideas that don't work for you. It's not up to the list to decide what ideas will work for you.

You don't need to tell us how important cars are to your family. That isn't relevant. You don't need to tell us what a great time the family had. That's irrelevant. What you were telling us was that your kids couldn't be calm in the dealership. You told us they made a mess in the kitchen.

You told us these two things about your kids that was bothering you

*** They were told not to run and not to hop in and out of each and 
every car several times by me to no avail. ***
*** When my wife and I were out of sight for 10 minutes towards the end, 
the kids were hanging out in the kitchen area of the dealership, told to be cool ***

Unschooled kids don't have special listening powers. Unschooling parents don't have special speaking powers. Unschooling parents do have special listening powers that allow them to understand what their kids' actions say. If "Stop" doesn't work, it's not the child's fault if a second "Stop" doesn't work. The child's reaction to the first said, "I can't." (Though "Do this instead" works much better than "Stop". *Still* if the child is showing you they can't, then they can't.) 

Then it was up to you. Since it didn't bother your wife, it wasn't relevant that it didn't bother her. It wasn't relevant that she lets the kids drop wrappers. It was up to you to step in to stop behavior that was bothering *you*. You were focused on what you wanted -- shopping for cars with the whole family -- and missing what your kids actions were saying they needed. You needed to be with your kids. You could have bailed on the dealership and taken them to a park so you could return later.

You've learned -- hopefully -- from this experience more about your kids' limits. And you can make a choice that's more in keeping with their abilities. And you can learn to listen to their actions as if they were words asking for you to help them.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-The judgment, assumptions, criticism is a big turn off.-=-

So it's about your comfort again.  
The poster to whom you are complaining was not trying to turn you on.  She was trying to help you with what you need to avoid the problems you're complaining about.

-=-My original post was asking a question – is it ok for my children to run around wild at a car dealership.  That’s it.  My wife and I seem to have a difference of opinion on these matters and I’m simply trying to learn what unschoolers think about certain situations.-=-

Your original post was NOT about the car dealership, and several people have said the same thing, which you are insulting and batting away.  Children should not have been running around at a car dealership, but it is not your wife's fault that they were.  

-=- I’m simply trying to learn what unschoolers think about certain situations.-=-

I think this is the third use of "simply," and it's irritating.

We're not writing about "certain situations."  We're writing about principles and concepts and tools.

Sandra