Sandra Dodd

This is an extreme case, harshly worded.

I'm removing the author from association with it.  The e-mail had too much identifying info, and another problem or two, so I'm bringing the middle part of it hoping others here will share impressions and suggestions.

____________________

So right now my marriage sucks in part to two different ideas on what’s important for our children and how this deeply affects me.

My children are awesome with beautiful colorful personalities.  Nobody loves my children more than me.  At the same time my wife does not seem to care whether our children are well behaved or not, practice good manners, show respect, clean up after themselves, litter, wash their hands after going potty, leaving lights on, television sets, eating wherever they want (like my beautiful bedroom. my domain. Sanctuary)  Literally, my 10, 8, 6, and not my 3, will leave their trash (wrappers from food, lollipop sticks, whatever) on the floor, counter or wherever they open this item or when they are done with them.  There also seems to be no boundaries whatsoever.  If my kids want something they should get it.  Like saying no to them is saying there is something wrong with me like I’m some horrible person.  If my kids want to go to the bowling alley and spend money on dumb games they should be able to do this whenever they want even though it’s money we must give them and literally in 15 minutes $20 bucks is gone.  They have wii, playstation, and ipads.
 
To me having good manners, throwing trash away (would I throw trash out my car window, in the ocean), washing hands, cleaning up after self, not being able to “get” and “do” whatever they want, turning lights off are behaviors that are important.  It makes me feel like they are wild animals and wife could care less.     
 
Yes, I care if they come upstairs into my bedroom when I am trying to relax or at any time with plum juice, dripping fruit (no napkins of course) or sugary candy sticky hands and lollipops.  It makes me crazy.
________

End of anonymized quote
Responses welcome.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-My children are awesome with beautiful colorful personalities.  Nobody loves my children more than me. -=-

Sounds pretty adversarial about whether you love them more than their mother does.

-=-At the same time my wife does not seem to care whether our children are well behaved or not, practice good manners, show respect, clean up after themselves, litter, wash their hands after going potty, leaving lights on, television sets, eating wherever they want (like my beautiful bedroom. my domain. Sanctuary) -=-

MY bedroom?  Not "our bedroom"?

Maybe if the marriage gets more priority, everything will be better. 

Holly and I went to see the movie Boyhood yesterday.  What would have been good for that boy would have been for his parents to stay together—not to have had to move, and move, and have scary, abusive step-people.  At one point the dad says the mom might have been more patient, early on, while he was young and learning his job.

The idea of birth control came up several times, too.

It is not easy to be a child.  
It is not easy to be an unschooled child whose parents don't spend a LOT (a WHOLE lot) of time with them.  Much of the post sounds like the father doesn't know or like the children, and sees their "dumb games" and activities as something irritating and separate from the parents.   And (from the tone of it) the parents separate from each other as well.

It CAN change people, if they want to change.  If people take, from unschooling's ideas, the principles that will make ANY life better—gratitude, abundance, compassion, patience, LEARNING (nowhere in that post was there anything that reminded me of the idea of creating an unschooing environment where learning is happening)—then the parents' lives get better.  

If a person wants to unschool without changing himself, or herself, it's not going to work.  Normal, hostile, resentful, inflexible people can't be unschooling parents.  As deschooling happens, as unschooling begins to work, the parents change.

IF the mother has adopted unschooling against the dad's will, without him understanding it, and she's not been able to be persuasive that's a problem.

But above and around that, nobody (adult or child) should be throwing trash around the house.  But if a child HAS trash, where should it go?  Does every room have a wastepaper basket?  Does every parent have a wet washcloth close at hand to help keep the kids hands clean?  Are both parents nearby and willing to help kids get food?  Can't a plum be cut up and put in a bowl, and the child given a fork?   When a child needs the toilet, and he's at home and not at school and has two parents there, can't he get some help?

The post sounded like "I want to be in my room by myself, while my kids are playing with their wii, playstation, and ipads."

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

I'm going to comb through the knotty original post again.  It had a lot of clues.

-=-So right now my marriage sucks in part to two different ideas on what’s important for our children and how this deeply affects me.-=-

SUCKS!
how this deeply affects *me*

If parents focus on being good parents rather than expecting marriage or children to make the parents' lives good, every single life involved will improve right then.

But if there are "two different ideas on what's important for our children," if that means the parents have two large sets of beliefs that don't match, they went ten years without getting it together.  That's a problem.  

If unschooling is new for the family, they need to slow down and understand it better.  Step thoughtfully and mindfully step by step WITH the children, TOGETHER, everyone.

Too much sudden change does  create problems.

If that's not the case for this family, it might be the case for others reading here.

-=-practice good manners, show respect, clean up after themselves, litter, wash their hands after going potty, leaving lights on, television sets, eating wherever they want-=-

What jumps out at me is "practice good manners" and "show respect."

It wasn't very good manners, and it wasn't very respectful, for this dad to have written so harsh a post to so many people.  

Parents should show respect and be mannerly toward their children, and that is how children will learn it.  They should help their children.  

Those kids are young, too, though.  There are adults who are imperfect about the things on that list. It's likely that the dad is expecting too much—he has an image of "good kids" and his kids are themselves, not his imagined kids.  (And if that's not true of this family, it might be of others.)

I think this meant to be "now" rather than "not":

-=-Literally, my 10, 8, 6, and not my 3, will leave their trash (wrappers from food, lollipop sticks, whatever) on the floor, counter or wherever they open this item or when they are done with them. -=-

That is not good.  IF (if) it is true that the mom is not changing that behavior, that is something that should change.  
If I had a child who left something like that out and wanted another one, I would say "No.  You threw the wrapper on the floor last time, and I don't want the wrapper on the floor."  I wouldn't say it meanly.  I would say it calmly.  Or "Only if you put the wrapper in the trash."  And I would mean it.  But I wouldn't be hateful.

Or if the child were six or three, I would pay attention and when the wrapper or stick was there, I would get it and throw it away myself.

-=-Like saying no to them is saying there is something wrong with me like I’m some horrible person.-=-

The tone of the post was kind of horrible.  It wasn't loving, or hopeful, or supportive, or loving.

-=- If my kids want to go to the bowling alley and spend money on dumb games they should be able to do this whenever they want even though it’s money we must give them and literally in 15 minutes $20 bucks is gone. -=-

Surely they're not going by themselves.  I don't know what "dumb games" they're wanting to play, but maybe what they want is a fun life, stimulation, excitement.  And unschooled kids SHOULD have that.  

And what does "it's money we must give them" mean!?  How are kids who are 10, 8, 6 and 3 to get money otherwise?

-=-To me having good manners, throwing trash away (would I throw trash out my car window, in the ocean), washing hands, cleaning up after self, not being able to “get” and “do” whatever they want, turning lights off are behaviors that are important.-=-

To me, being a good parent means heping children throw trash away, and helping them wash their hands, cleaning up after them, and helping them get and do LOTS of fun things.  I think parents should turn the lights off when they want them off.  Learning to be a more patient person is behavior that's important.  Keeping families together is a behavior that's important.

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

The same dad had written last Spring:  

"I love having our children home. I was the biggest failure in
school there ever was and now live a very successful life with everything I
ever wanted, especially my children home, far away from school. Hated
school. Hated every aspect. Drank, drugs, homelessness, jails, you name
it, to drown out school's pressures and my parents voices. Grateful for all
of it because it makes enjoying the good in my life so easy. Thanks for the
unschooling. Keep rocking!"

No one can decide to unschool once and have that work for years.  Unschooling and peaceful parenting and being with children and being attentive involves many choices every day.  It's a way to live.  You can't buy unschooling.  You can't tell your partner to do it while you watch movies in another room with the door closed.

A few hours of my morning were spent on side e-mails concerning the situation.

Anyone and everyone who might be having the smallest hesitation or confusion about unschooling should go here:
You can't read it all; don't even try to read ALL of it.  But if you have not gone through Pam Laricchia's introductory series, please do.  It's linked on that help page.  Doing it as a couple would be even better.  Buy one of her books while you're in there; the e-mail series is free.

Maybe buy one of my books while you're in here: 

Subscribe to this:
But subscribing isn't magic.  READ it.  If that doesn't seem like enough inspiration to make your day better, click the link in the post.  If there isn't one, click the title and go to the blog and click some other link.

Free comfort and inspiration is being sent out every single day.  More material than anyone could ever read is available on several websites, searchable as one, at the bottom of sandradodd.com/search

That is a lot of help, freely available.

Please do use it.

Sandra

Stacey Johnny Valnes

Sandra, you seem almost defensive, like you are trying to call me out?  Why?  What point are you trying to make.
I believe everyone of your responses to my post this morning has been about me.

I was expressing FRUSTRATION and you have turned up my frustration by what feels like belittling me.  Not once did you address my questions and concerns and now you pull previous posts.  Why?  Instead you pointed out stuff like "me" "my"

My questions and concerns were not once addressed by you - OUR children being allowed to throw their trash wherever (and yes we have trash cans throughout OUR home).  Our children not washing their hands after going potty.  Our children being able to eat food and candy wherever they want.  Our children cruising the house with messy hands.  Our children getting and doing what they want when they want, like going to the bowling alley and spending money on frivolous throw away games and toys. 

I was wondering if this is accepted behavior with unschooling families because to ME it seems unhealthy, rude, disrespectful, a lack of discipline and a way to set up for bad behavior down the road and a way to create stress now which is what we are dealing with.  I would not like for my children to behave the way I have described in someone elses home.  This is what is bothering me and why I reached out for support and all I got was a spanking from you.


To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 20:29:02 -0600
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] A dad angry about kids making messes

 
The same dad had written last Spring:  

"I love having our children home. I was the biggest failure in
school there ever was and now live a very successful life with everything I
ever wanted, especially my children home, far away from school. Hated
school. Hated every aspect. Drank, drugs, homelessness, jails, you name
it, to drown out school's pressures and my parents voices. Grateful for all
of it because it makes enjoying the good in my life so easy. Thanks for the
unschooling. Keep rocking!"

No one can decide to unschool once and have that work for years.  Unschooling and peaceful parenting and being with children and being attentive involves many choices every day.  It's a way to live.  You can't buy unschooling.  You can't tell your partner to do it while you watch movies in another room with the door closed.

A few hours of my morning were spent on side e-mails concerning the situation.

Anyone and everyone who might be having the smallest hesitation or confusion about unschooling should go here:
You can't read it all; don't even try to read ALL of it.  But if you have not gone through Pam Laricchia's introductory series, please do.  It's linked on that help page.  Doing it as a couple would be even better.  Buy one of her books while you're in there; the e-mail series is free.

Maybe buy one of my books while you're in here: 

Subscribe to this:
But subscribing isn't magic.  READ it.  If that doesn't seem like enough inspiration to make your day better, click the link in the post.  If there isn't one, click the title and go to the blog and click some other link.

Free comfort and inspiration is being sent out every single day.  More material than anyone could ever read is available on several websites, searchable as one, at the bottom of sandradodd.com/search

That is a lot of help, freely available.

Please do use it.

Sandra

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

<<<<
My questions and concerns were not once addressed by you - OUR children being allowed to throw their trash wherever (and yes we have trash cans throughout OUR home).  Our children not washing their hands after going potty.  Our children being able to eat food and candy wherever they want.  Our children cruising the house with messy hands.  Our children getting and doing what they want when they want, like going to the bowling alley and spending money on frivolous throw away games and toys. >>>>>>>

Yes it was addressed many times!

Here:

<<
But above and around that, nobody (adult or child) should be throwing trash around the house.  But if a child HAS trash, where should it go?  Does every room have a wastepaper basket?  Does every parent have a wet washcloth close at hand to help keep the kids hands clean?  Are both parents nearby and willing to help kids get food?  Can't a plum be cut up and put in a bowl, and the child given a fork?   When a child needs the toilet, and he's at home and not at school and has two parents there, can't he get some help?>>>>>>>

and here:

<<<<<<
That is not good.  IF (if) it is true that the mom is not changing that behavior, that is something that should change.  
If I had a child who left something like that out and wanted another one, I would say "No.  You threw the wrapper on the floor last time, and I don't want the wrapper on the floor."  I wouldn't say it meanly.  I would say it calmly.  Or "Only if you put the wrapper in the trash."  And I would mean it.  But I wouldn't be hateful.

Or if the child were six or three, I would pay attention and when the wrapper or stick was there, I would get it and throw it away myself.>>>>>>>

and here:

<<<
To me, being a good parent means heping children throw trash away, and helping them wash their hands, cleaning up after them, and helping them get and do LOTS of fun things.  I think parents should turn the lights off when they want them off.  Learning to be a more patient person is behavior that's important.  Keeping families together is a behavior that's important.>>>>>>>



 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Thursday, August 28, 2014 11:39 PM, "Stacey Johnny Valnes staceyvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
Sandra, you seem almost defensive, like you are trying to call me out?  Why?  What point are you trying to make.
I believe everyone of your responses to my post this morning has been about me.

I was expressing FRUSTRATION and you have turned up my frustration by what feels like belittling me.  Not once did you address my questions and concerns and now you pull previous posts.  Why?  Instead you pointed out stuff like "me" "my"

My questions and concerns were not once addressed by you - OUR children being allowed to throw their trash wherever (and yes we have trash cans throughout OUR home).  Our children not washing their hands after going potty.  Our children being able to eat food and candy wherever they want.  Our children cruising the house with messy hands.  Our children getting and doing what they want when they want, like going to the bowling alley and spending money on frivolous throw away games and toys. 

I was wondering if this is accepted behavior with unschooling families because to ME it seems unhealthy, rude, disrespectful, a lack of discipline and a way to set up for bad behavior down the road and a way to create stress now which is what we are dealing with.  I would not like for my children to behave the way I have described in someone elses home.  This is what is bothering me and why I reached out for support and all I got was a spanking from you.


To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 20:29:02 -0600
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] A dad angry about kids making messes

 
The same dad had written last Spring:  

"I love having our children home. I was the biggest failure in
school there ever was and now live a very successful life with everything I
ever wanted, especially my children home, far away from school. Hated
school. Hated every aspect. Drank, drugs, homelessness, jails, you name
it, to drown out school's pressures and my parents voices. Grateful for all
of it because it makes enjoying the good in my life so easy. Thanks for the
unschooling. Keep rocking!"

No one can decide to unschool once and have that work for years.  Unschooling and peaceful parenting and being with children and being attentive involves many choices every day.  It's a way to live.  You can't buy unschooling.  You can't tell your partner to do it while you watch movies in another room with the door closed.

A few hours of my morning were spent on side e-mails concerning the situation.

Anyone and everyone who might be having the smallest hesitation or confusion about unschooling should go here:
http://sandradodd.com/help
You can't read it all; don't even try to read ALL of it.  But if you have not gone through Pam Laricchia's introductory series, please do.  It's linked on that help page.  Doing it as a couple would be even better.  Buy one of her books while you're in there; the e-mail series is free.

Maybe buy one of my books while you're in here: 
http://sandradodd.com/help

Subscribe to this:
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
But subscribing isn't magic.  READ it.  If that doesn't seem like enough inspiration to make your day better, click the link in the post.  If there isn't one, click the title and go to the blog and click some other link.

Free comfort and inspiration is being sent out every single day.  More material than anyone could ever read is available on several websites, searchable as one, at the bottom of sandradodd.com/search

That is a lot of help, freely available.

Please do use it.

Sandra



Sandra Dodd

-=-Sandra, you seem almost defensive, like you are trying to call me out? Why? What point are you trying to make.
I believe everyone of your responses to my post this morning has been about me.-=-

Your post was about you. How your sucky marriage and horribly behaved children was affecting you.
Parents must change for unschooling to work. Parents must become more the way they want their children to be. If you don't want to change, unschooling will not work for you. You have four children and a pregnant wife. I was trying to keep your argument private, without names, because if the level of immaturity you were showing, but you insisted on bringing it out more publically.

I won't say everything I know, from half a day spend in side e-mails, a question you never answered though I asked it twice, and several exchanges with your wife, who was with it enough to know I wanted it to be be dealt with without names attached. I will say there is more to this, and that you intended to draw other people into what should be a loving discussion between the parents of four, nearly five children.

-=-Sandra, you seem almost defensive, like you are trying to call me out? -=-

I am defensive of the tone and the usefulness of this discussion, which I have maintained (with help from a few moderators) for over a dozen years. Longer than you have been a father, Always Learning has been the best place to discuss unschooling. You've been a member for nearly a year, I think. But I don't think you've been reading it. I think when you got pissed off about your own life you tried to use me (as I said in an e-mail to you and your copy list and my moderators)—"using me (by name) as some sort of tie-breaking opinion." Because you addressed your original e-mail "Sandra—"

If you're aware of the concept of projection, this might be an example of that. You're accusing me of "trying to call you out," but you addressed your harsh post (about which you wrote, when I pointed out the harshness " I feel harsh.") to me, by name. It seemed you were accusing me and unschooling of making your marriage suck. That is why, eventually, I quoted you (without your name) from a few months back when you were enthusiastic about unschooling.

-=-I was expressing FRUSTRATION and you have turned up my frustration by what feels like belittling me. -=-

I was doing you a favor by not putting your name and phone number, which your original post had.
I was doing your family a favor by hoping you could calm down without people knowing whose husband was being so rash in such a public place.

-=-Not once did you address my questions and concerns and now you pull previous posts. Why? Instead you pointed out stuff like "me" "my"-=-

It does happen that someone will come here and say "this is my question" and when we point out the evidence they have brought that indicates why they are not seeing the answer to their question, they say "Why are you talking about other things? Just answer my question."

I'm not sure what answer you think you wanted. You didn't ask a question so much as you ranted and insulted your children and your spouse. That is not good for them. That is not good for YOU. I wrote things I thought might help you see better, different ways to be, and reasons to think differently about your situation.

-=-Not once did you address my questions and concerns -=-

Because you have written this and it is so profoundly untrie, I think you should probably find someone to talk to, for the sake of your family and of your future as a father.
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
I think Graham Dusseldorp would be perfect to help you balance work and fatherhood better.

Spend more time with your children. Sweet time, not critical time.
Look for what you have, rather than what you think you would like to have.
http://sandradodd.com/gratitude
http://sandradodd.com/abundance

-=-My questions and concerns were not once addressed by you - OUR children being allowed to throw their trash wherever (and yes we have trash cans throughout OUR home). Our children not washing their hands after going potty. Our children being able to eat food and candy wherever they want. Our children cruising the house with messy hands. Our children getting and doing what they want when they want, like going to the bowling alley and spending money on frivolous throw away games and toys. -=-

Did you really truly think this was some kind of help desk where someone would write and tell you (as a tie-breaker in an argument with your wife) exactly what to do about throwing trash? And if you think I did not address it, why did you write "and yes we have trash cans..."?

-=-My questions and concerns were not once addressed by you - ... Our children not washing their hands after going potty. -=-

Did you expect me to tell you to spank them if they didn't do it? Or to yell at your wife? I thought I suggested being with them more and helping them. Having a wet wash cloth at hand for messes. Maybe you should read through the e-mails again.

-=-My questions and concerns were not once addressed by you - .... Our children being able to eat food and candy wherever they want. Our children cruising the house with messy hands. Our children getting and doing what they want when they want, like going to the bowling alley and spending money on frivolous throw away games and toys. -=-

You are the father of four children. I only had three. You should have more experience than I do at helping them with snacks and cleanliness. I think I suggested being with them more in several ways and for several reasons. If going to the bowling alley is the best thing they have to do, what are YOU doing during that time?

Make their lives more interesting. GIve them more attention, more interaction, rather than waiting pissed off in your sanctuary upstairs for one of them to rudely show up with dirty hands. Does this feel belittling to you? Be bigger, then.

You intended to embarrass your wife in this group. You intended to attempt to look big, and right, and put-upon, but you failed in that. I'm sure you suceeded in embarrassing your wife. Perhaps I should not have brought your post at all, not even anonymously.

-=-I was wondering if this is accepted behavior with unschooling families because to ME it seems unhealthy, rude, disrespectful, a lack of discipline and a way to set up for bad behavior down the road and a way to create stress now which is what we are dealing with. -=-

If you were a participant in this group, a regular reader, if you were going to unschooling meet-ups (camp-outs, which I know they have in California) or conferences (I spoke in California recently; that would have been a good place to learn more, if you want to understand it better), you would know more about the potential and behavior or unschooled children outside your family. If you have rude children, perhaps they need a better example, in an ongoing way. Perhaps they need help to understand *why* to act differently, but as the oldest is ten, if you're expecting them to understand more than young children can understand, that's part of the problem too.

Being around other unschoolers would help. If you can't do that or don't want to, read about child development, and how children's thinking and learning is at different ages, maybe. Or if you don't want to do that, just be a nicer, more patient father and let them learn naturally in a peaceful, loving environment which is the core of unschooling anyway.

http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely

-=- I would not like for my children to behave the way I have described in someone elses home. This is what is bothering me and why I reached out for support and all I got was a spanking from you.-=-

If logic feels like a spanking, think about that.
If you think of spankings, what was with your own childhood? Do you want to repeat the worst parts of your own childhood?

You didn't "reach out for support." You wrote a hateful, harsh report. You were blaming your wife yesterday, and your children. Now you're blaming me.

If you don't want to see the world differently, it will not hurt me or my children.
If you don't want to see the world differently, it will hurt you, and your children.

I would prefer that this not continue. Turn your attention toward links in the e-mails, to information about what makes unschooling work well, what makes parents more mindful and more peaceful. If you have a question look it up with one of the two search boxes here:
http://sandradodd.com/search

Read a little and then put it into action.
http://sandradodd.com/readalittle

Make many little choices every day that take you away from being a harsh, angry dad who thinks "belittle" and "spank".
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
http://sandradodd.com/choices

We have provided resources. Yesterday you abused this discussion.

Be generous and loving and fully attentive, to your wife and your children, and half your problems will disappear before the end of the day.

Sandra

CASS KOTRBA

-=-  My questions and concerns were... OUR children being allowed to throw their trash wherever (and yes we have trash cans throughout OUR home). Our children not washing their hands after going potty. Our children being able to eat food and candy wherever they want. Our children cruising the house with messy hands. Our children getting and doing what they want when they want, like going to the bowling alley and spending money on frivolous throw away games and toys. -=-
 
-=-I was wondering if this is accepted behavior with unschooling families because to ME it seems unhealthy, rude, disrespectful, a lack of discipline and a way to set up for bad behavior down the road and a way to create stress now which is what we are dealing with. I would not like for my children to behave the way I have described in someone elses home.-=-
 
You are asking us what the inside of your home "should" look like and we can't answer that for you.  We can tell you that life and creativity are often messy processes.  In my house I choose to think of it as a "creative and/or joyful mess".  You can choose to look at your wife, children and home with a critical, judgemental eye or with a loving, compassionate, joyful eye full of gratefulness.  How wonderful that you have 4 beautiful, healthy young children running around your home creating happy messes.  How blessed you are to have this bright & brave woman in your life providing all these rich, memory making experiences. 
 
Changing over to unschooling is a BIG change for all of you.  Not to mention the added challenges of  your wife being pregnant with your fifth child.  Switching from a traditional parenting/schooling perspective to an unschooling one is wonderful & very much worthwhile but it is by no means without it's challenges.  It can be a messy deal.  Working through those challenges takes time, love, patience. 
 
When you have an employee or a work situation it is ok to have expectations and standards that they are required to meet.  But families don't work well under that type of top down management system.  A strong family is a team.  You are a member of that team.  You are not the coach or the manager.  You are there to play & work, just the same as everyone else.  If you come into the game & see that your pitcher, quarterback or whatever is struggling, what do you do?  Do you beat that person down or do you try to help out where you can to try to keep the game going in a winning direction?  What is best for the team?  How can you help improve the things you are unhappy about in your home?  To what extent is this an actual problem and how much a lack of perspective on your part?  Can you find a way to see your wife in a more compassionate, loving light?  Have you yourself ever spent a day caring for the 4 children either in the home or at an event?  Do you think such an activity might give you a different perspective?
 
A lot of what you are worrying about in the statements above seem to indicate a fear that you are losing control.  Where does that worry come from?  Do you really believe it's good to try to control other people?  Children learn kindness, patience, generosity & respect by being treated (& seeing Mom & pets treated) with love, respect, kindness, generosity & patience.
 
You are upset about a bowling trip where family funds were spent.  Was it money you could not afford to spend or is it the way in which it was spent that you object to?  If you had been included in the trip & had been wrapped up in the fun & excitement of the moment with them do you think it would have still seemed like a waste?  Have you ever gone to the bar to have a few drinks when you could have stayed home & drank them less expensively?  Would you enjoy it if they could try to include you in some of these fun type of family outings? 
 
Think about what you are really upset about & why.  Do you think that being grumpy & cross with your wife will help you guys come to a better place or make it more difficult?  Are a few dollars and a bit of stickiness/untidiness worth ruining relationships over?  How much would a divorce cost?  How messy would that make life?  Can you find a way to be a part of the solution instead of part of the problem?
 
-Cass
 
 

CASS KOTRBA

-=- When you have an employee or a work situation it is ok to have expectations and standards that they are required to meet. But families don't work well under that type of top down management system. -=-
 
If you treat your wife & children like employees then some day they may decide to quit you.  How sad & lonely would that be?  How much would you long for their happy chatter & messes?
 
-Cass

janine davies

>>>Sandra, you seem almost defensive, like you are trying to call me out?  Why?  What point are you trying to make.

This place as has been said many times is a discussion, a conversation, and ideas arena ,a place to get a fresh outlook, and what I read was an incredibly helpful and informative reply to what was in my opinion quite a disturbing and uncomfortable original post to read. 
In fact I found myself quite stunned by it and knew that Sandra or one of the other very experienced unschoolers would be the best to handle this, and when I read Sandra's response I felt relief for you - her reply email was profoundly helpful  and  I instantly thought phew! thats exactly what he needs to read and felt grateful again for this resource. 

Sandra read and responded as the very experienced unschooler of 20 plus years that she is.

Her response has already helped you to see more clearly if you really look.

>>I believe everyone of your responses to my post this morning has been about me.<<<

Thats because it is about 'you', it read very much about you not being tolerant, or helpful, or seeking or seeing the learning, as expecting too much from them, and trying to be away from them in 'domains' and rubbishing their fun, and seeming to be resenting a lot. Angry. 

What Sandra was pointing out is that the answer to this starts with you, looking at yourself and your response's and thinking on all this - she and the others who have written have knocked the nail on the head but its uncomfortable for you and thats ok, because it can be, especially if your childhood has been difficult. 
Mine was and I still at 50yrs old work on myself everyday and some days make big conscious efforts to turn away from it and not dwell and make sure I see and understand where certain unwanted by me behaviour is coming from, and it still takes me by surprise the intensity and power  past experiences and damage can have. 

Please take from this if you can, put your ego aside and see the wonderful advice being given freely here, your family sounds wonderful and your post from last spring so positive and joyful, but unschooling needs to be much more deeply rooted in you.

I am actually really grateful to you that you wrote here as it has been incredibly helpful to me personally and I'm sure to many others as a reminder that unschooling is not a magic potion that we take once and then its all peaceful, happy and lovely, once the original euphoria settles the old stuff creeps back in and side blinds us, its like peeling away at layers of an onion and the deeper this way of living and learning is ingrained in us, gets right to the core of us, the more layers are removed and we are left with a fresh, open, incredibly loving, kind and true heart that looks forward and is always learning.

Janine x









To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 21:55:30 -0700
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] A dad angry about kids making messes

 

<<<<
My questions and concerns were not once addressed by you - OUR children being allowed to throw their trash wherever (and yes we have trash cans throughout OUR home).  Our children not washing their hands after going potty.  Our children being able to eat food and candy wherever they want.  Our children cruising the house with messy hands.  Our children getting and doing what they want when they want, like going to the bowling alley and spending money on frivolous throw away games and toys. >>>>>>>

Yes it was addressed many times!

Here:

<<
But above and around that, nobody (adult or child) should be throwing trash around the house.  But if a child HAS trash, where should it go?  Does every room have a wastepaper basket?  Does every parent have a wet washcloth close at hand to help keep the kids hands clean?  Are both parents nearby and willing to help kids get food?  Can't a plum be cut up and put in a bowl, and the child given a fork?   When a child needs the toilet, and he's at home and not at school and has two parents there, can't he get some help?>>>>>>>

and here:

<<<<<<
That is not good.  IF (if) it is true that the mom is not changing that behavior, that is something that should change.  
If I had a child who left something like that out and wanted another one, I would say "No.  You threw the wrapper on the floor last time, and I don't want the wrapper on the floor."  I wouldn't say it meanly.  I would say it calmly.  Or "Only if you put the wrapper in the trash."  And I would mean it.  But I wouldn't be hateful.

Or if the child were six or three, I would pay attention and when the wrapper or stick was there, I would get it and throw it away myself.>>>>>>>

and here:

<<<
To me, being a good parent means heping children throw trash away, and helping them wash their hands, cleaning up after them, and helping them get and do LOTS of fun things.  I think parents should turn the lights off when they want them off.  Learning to be a more patient person is behavior that's important.  Keeping families together is a behavior that's important.>>>>>>>



 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Thursday, August 28, 2014 11:39 PM, "Stacey Johnny Valnes staceyvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
Sandra, you seem almost defensive, like you are trying to call me out?  Why?  What point are you trying to make.
I believe everyone of your responses to my post this morning has been about me.

I was expressing FRUSTRATION and you have turned up my frustration by what feels like belittling me.  Not once did you address my questions and concerns and now you pull previous posts.  Why?  Instead you pointed out stuff like "me" "my"

My questions and concerns were not once addressed by you - OUR children being allowed to throw their trash wherever (and yes we have trash cans throughout OUR home).  Our children not washing their hands after going potty.  Our children being able to eat food and candy wherever they want.  Our children cruising the house with messy hands.  Our children getting and doing what they want when they want, like going to the bowling alley and spending money on frivolous throw away games and toys. 

I was wondering if this is accepted behavior with unschooling families because to ME it seems unhealthy, rude, disrespectful, a lack of discipline and a way to set up for bad behavior down the road and a way to create stress now which is what we are dealing with.  I would not like for my children to behave the way I have described in someone elses home.  This is what is bothering me and why I reached out for support and all I got was a spanking from you.


To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 20:29:02 -0600
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] A dad angry about kids making messes

 
The same dad had written last Spring:  

"I love having our children home. I was the biggest failure in
school there ever was and now live a very successful life with everything I
ever wanted, especially my children home, far away from school. Hated
school. Hated every aspect. Drank, drugs, homelessness, jails, you name
it, to drown out school's pressures and my parents voices. Grateful for all
of it because it makes enjoying the good in my life so easy. Thanks for the
unschooling. Keep rocking!"

No one can decide to unschool once and have that work for years.  Unschooling and peaceful parenting and being with children and being attentive involves many choices every day.  It's a way to live.  You can't buy unschooling.  You can't tell your partner to do it while you watch movies in another room with the door closed.

A few hours of my morning were spent on side e-mails concerning the situation.

Anyone and everyone who might be having the smallest hesitation or confusion about unschooling should go here:
You can't read it all; don't even try to read ALL of it.  But if you have not gone through Pam Laricchia's introductory series, please do.  It's linked on that help page.  Doing it as a couple would be even better.  Buy one of her books while you're in there; the e-mail series is free.

Maybe buy one of my books while you're in here: 

Subscribe to this:
But subscribing isn't magic.  READ it.  If that doesn't seem like enough inspiration to make your day better, click the link in the post.  If there isn't one, click the title and go to the blog and click some other link.

Free comfort and inspiration is being sent out every single day.  More material than anyone could ever read is available on several websites, searchable as one, at the bottom of sandradodd.com/search

That is a lot of help, freely available.

Please do use it.

Sandra




janine davies

I would just like to clarify my own words after reading this back.

'' make sure I see and understand where certain unwanted by me behaviour is coming from, and it still takes me by surprise the intensity and power  past experiences and damage can have. "

I mean MY unwanted behaviour in this sentence not my kids! Unwanted harmful behaviour and responses to my kids that can still catch me out from old programming and hurts.

Thanks
Janine x








From: daviesj69@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] A dad angry about kids making messes
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 07:11:41 +0000

>>>Sandra, you seem almost defensive, like you are trying to call me out?  Why?  What point are you trying to make.

This place as has been said many times is a discussion, a conversation, and ideas arena ,a place to get a fresh outlook, and what I read was an incredibly helpful and informative reply to what was in my opinion quite a disturbing and uncomfortable original post to read. 
In fact I found myself quite stunned by it and knew that Sandra or one of the other very experienced unschoolers would be the best to handle this, and when I read Sandra's response I felt relief for you - her reply email was profoundly helpful  and  I instantly thought phew! thats exactly what he needs to read and felt grateful again for this resource. 

Sandra read and responded as the very experienced unschooler of 20 plus years that she is.

Her response has already helped you to see more clearly if you really look.

>>I believe everyone of your responses to my post this morning has been about me.<<<

Thats because it is about 'you', it read very much about you not being tolerant, or helpful, or seeking or seeing the learning, as expecting too much from them, and trying to be away from them in 'domains' and rubbishing their fun, and seeming to be resenting a lot. Angry. 

What Sandra was pointing out is that the answer to this starts with you, looking at yourself and your response's and thinking on all this - she and the others who have written have knocked the nail on the head but its uncomfortable for you and thats ok, because it can be, especially if your childhood has been difficult. 
Mine was and I still at 50yrs old work on myself everyday and some days make big conscious efforts to turn away from it and not dwell and make sure I see and understand where certain unwanted by me behaviour is coming from, and it still takes me by surprise the intensity and power  past experiences and damage can have. 

Please take from this if you can, put your ego aside and see the wonderful advice being given freely here, your family sounds wonderful and your post from last spring so positive and joyful, but unschooling needs to be much more deeply rooted in you.

I am actually really grateful to you that you wrote here as it has been incredibly helpful to me personally and I'm sure to many others as a reminder that unschooling is not a magic potion that we take once and then its all peaceful, happy and lovely, once the original euphoria settles the old stuff creeps back in and side blinds us, its like peeling away at layers of an onion and the deeper this way of living and learning is ingrained in us, gets right to the core of us, the more layers are removed and we are left with a fresh, open, incredibly loving, kind and true heart that looks forward and is always learning.

Janine x









To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 21:55:30 -0700
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] A dad angry about kids making messes

 

<<<<
My questions and concerns were not once addressed by you - OUR children being allowed to throw their trash wherever (and yes we have trash cans throughout OUR home).  Our children not washing their hands after going potty.  Our children being able to eat food and candy wherever they want.  Our children cruising the house with messy hands.  Our children getting and doing what they want when they want, like going to the bowling alley and spending money on frivolous throw away games and toys. >>>>>>>

Yes it was addressed many times!

Here:

<<
But above and around that, nobody (adult or child) should be throwing trash around the house.  But if a child HAS trash, where should it go?  Does every room have a wastepaper basket?  Does every parent have a wet washcloth close at hand to help keep the kids hands clean?  Are both parents nearby and willing to help kids get food?  Can't a plum be cut up and put in a bowl, and the child given a fork?   When a child needs the toilet, and he's at home and not at school and has two parents there, can't he get some help?>>>>>>>

and here:

<<<<<<
That is not good.  IF (if) it is true that the mom is not changing that behavior, that is something that should change.  
If I had a child who left something like that out and wanted another one, I would say "No.  You threw the wrapper on the floor last time, and I don't want the wrapper on the floor."  I wouldn't say it meanly.  I would say it calmly.  Or "Only if you put the wrapper in the trash."  And I would mean it.  But I wouldn't be hateful.

Or if the child were six or three, I would pay attention and when the wrapper or stick was there, I would get it and throw it away myself.>>>>>>>

and here:

<<<
To me, being a good parent means heping children throw trash away, and helping them wash their hands, cleaning up after them, and helping them get and do LOTS of fun things.  I think parents should turn the lights off when they want them off.  Learning to be a more patient person is behavior that's important.  Keeping families together is a behavior that's important.>>>>>>>



 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Thursday, August 28, 2014 11:39 PM, "Stacey Johnny Valnes staceyvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
Sandra, you seem almost defensive, like you are trying to call me out?  Why?  What point are you trying to make.
I believe everyone of your responses to my post this morning has been about me.

I was expressing FRUSTRATION and you have turned up my frustration by what feels like belittling me.  Not once did you address my questions and concerns and now you pull previous posts.  Why?  Instead you pointed out stuff like "me" "my"

My questions and concerns were not once addressed by you - OUR children being allowed to throw their trash wherever (and yes we have trash cans throughout OUR home).  Our children not washing their hands after going potty.  Our children being able to eat food and candy wherever they want.  Our children cruising the house with messy hands.  Our children getting and doing what they want when they want, like going to the bowling alley and spending money on frivolous throw away games and toys. 

I was wondering if this is accepted behavior with unschooling families because to ME it seems unhealthy, rude, disrespectful, a lack of discipline and a way to set up for bad behavior down the road and a way to create stress now which is what we are dealing with.  I would not like for my children to behave the way I have described in someone elses home.  This is what is bothering me and why I reached out for support and all I got was a spanking from you.


To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 20:29:02 -0600
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] A dad angry about kids making messes

 
The same dad had written last Spring:  

"I love having our children home. I was the biggest failure in
school there ever was and now live a very successful life with everything I
ever wanted, especially my children home, far away from school. Hated
school. Hated every aspect. Drank, drugs, homelessness, jails, you name
it, to drown out school's pressures and my parents voices. Grateful for all
of it because it makes enjoying the good in my life so easy. Thanks for the
unschooling. Keep rocking!"

No one can decide to unschool once and have that work for years.  Unschooling and peaceful parenting and being with children and being attentive involves many choices every day.  It's a way to live.  You can't buy unschooling.  You can't tell your partner to do it while you watch movies in another room with the door closed.

A few hours of my morning were spent on side e-mails concerning the situation.

Anyone and everyone who might be having the smallest hesitation or confusion about unschooling should go here:
You can't read it all; don't even try to read ALL of it.  But if you have not gone through Pam Laricchia's introductory series, please do.  It's linked on that help page.  Doing it as a couple would be even better.  Buy one of her books while you're in there; the e-mail series is free.

Maybe buy one of my books while you're in here: 

Subscribe to this:
But subscribing isn't magic.  READ it.  If that doesn't seem like enough inspiration to make your day better, click the link in the post.  If there isn't one, click the title and go to the blog and click some other link.

Free comfort and inspiration is being sent out every single day.  More material than anyone could ever read is available on several websites, searchable as one, at the bottom of sandradodd.com/search

That is a lot of help, freely available.

Please do use it.

Sandra




Sandra Dodd

-=-I am actually really grateful to you that you wrote here as it has been incredibly helpful to me personally and I'm sure to many others as a reminder that unschooling is not a magic potion that we take once and then its all peaceful, happy and lovely-=-

Thank you, Janine, for writing that.

There is another discussion that Joyce Fetteroll owned primarily, and Pam Sorooshian and I were moderators. Unschooling Discussion. It existed concurrently with this one, which I created and Joyce and Pam have always helped with (and a few others, too, and I'm so grateful!).

The only difference between them is that Joyce didn't like the tussles and harsh arguments, so that one was more even-keeled. If someone was rude there, Joyce was likely to reject the post. At Always Learning, I was willing to respond to rudeness.

To try to keep them both equally allive, when yahoogroups stopped being the greatest place for discussions (a few years ago), I used to post my new topics in every-other-one—balancing my attention. it was too much work. :-)

But still, every time a particularly strident post comes by, or someone who seems a little crazed (temporarily or situationally or what, can't tell), I think of Joyce not liking those kinds of arguments, and whether it could do the person more harm than good for us (me, and whoever else will help) to really start untangling the knotted up thoughts they've brought and dumped on the table. Maybe they don't realize how antagonistic they're being, I think.

This guy, though, seemed clearly to know, and if he continued on the path he was on, it was going to lead to divorce. I don't like divorce. I don't want any children who can avoid that disaster in their lives to live with it for the rest of their lives (and any parent who wants to think it doesn't affect the child forevermore is practicing self-comfort at their children's expense). I would much rather, when and if it's possible, help the parents both be the kind of people who care more about their children than they do about themselves.

Something BIG happens when a person turns away from selfishness to service.
Something HUGE happens when a person can care about another person more than about himself.

The big, huge thing might seem mundane and invisible. It might be a marriage that can last 40, 50 years, so that grandchildren can visit their grandparents in one place, not a morass of single or remarried grandparents here and there, with no familiy photos out because they don't want to acknowledge their former marriages. It might be children who are not put in the position of choosing where to live, or taking sides, or lying to their mother to keep her from crying, or growing up expecting people to abandon them.

And when a person becomes selfless, they become better people. More comfortable people to be around. It makes others want to be generous with them, and kind to them.

Sometimes when someone volunteers to be a very bad example of parenting it's a big boost to others who are reading. And when things get heated, sometimes the heightened emotions can unearth previously unexamined ideas in the readers that wouldn't have been felt in a staid, calm "pass the crumpets" conversation.

Researchers in learning know that school children sitting quietly in rows (some falling asleep) are not at the optimal level of mental arousal to learn. Neither panic (too much arousal) nor "shhhhhh.... sit still for 50 minutes without moving or wiggling" is the sweet spot where learning works. Learning works best when someone perks up like a prairie dog, like a meerkat, at some stimulus. Food? Danger? Nothing? Okay.

For unschoolers, good, new ideas for ways to be closer to our children and to provide a better environment can be like food.

Sandra

semajrak@...

<<So right now my marriage sucks>>

When you find your thoughts coming up with phrases like this, stop.  Seriously.  Stop.  Think of one thing good about your wife or your marriage.  Can you spot your wife's walk from a mile away?  That's connection.  Do her eyes flutter when she sleeps?  Don't know?  Look and see.  It's hard to think "You suck" when looking down at a sleeping loved one.  What song makes you think of a nice moment shared with your wife? What was the last thing you both laughed about?  Find those little connections that soften hearts and look at those when you find yourself getting particularly harsh and critical.  It will help bring you back to center.  It might cause you to pause before you share such difficult to recover from statements (to several thousand readers) about a person you once promised to love and honour. 

<<Nobody loves my children more than me.>>

One of the greatest hopes I have for my son is that he will be well loved, both by me and by every other good-hearted person he invites into his life.  If they love him more than me, I will consider him well blessed indeed.  Open your heart to include a whole lot of love for your children.  Allow it to be bigger than you.  I can think of no greater gift.  At the very least consider that your wife, the mother of your children, at least loves the kids as much as you.  I find it difficult to believe you would choose to bring five lives into this world without that condition being true.

<<Literally, my 10, 8, 6, and not my 3, will leave their trash (wrappers from food, lollipop sticks, whatever) on the floor, counter or wherever they open this item or when they are done with them.>>

Go to the grocery store and pick up some medium-sized free cardboard boxes.  Bring them home, and decorate them with your kids favourite things  -- characters, hobbies, colours, memories, whatever makes their hearts sing.  Invite the kids to join you.  Put a grocery bag in each one and make it their personal waste baskets.  Put them close to where they snack.  Play basket trash with them.  As you work together, side by side, talk about how you feel.  Not in a mean way, and not too wordy.  Maybe "I'd really appreciate it if we can start to remember to through our trash in the garbage."  Invite your wife to help you.  Tell her how you feel.  "It bugs me having garbage on the floor.  I don't want them doing this in other people's homes.  Can we work together to get the kids to throw out their trash?"  

That is just one suggestion off the top of my head, and it might not work for you.  Trust that when you can be creative and open and honest and calm, the people you love will want to work with you.  It might take some practice on all your parts, but it's really worth the effort.

<<Like saying no to them is saying there is something wrong with me like I’m some horrible person.>>

This statement seems extreme.  I sincerely doubt your children think you are a horrible person for saying no.  I received more nos than yeses as a child.  I didn't think my parents were horrible people.  Unfair and hypocritical sometimes, yes.  Horrible, no. When you think in extremes like this, you make it difficult for yourself to think reasonably.  In your mind it's either say yes or you're a horrible person.  That would be an awfully difficult place to be.  In reality, there are a whole lot of reasonable choices in between those two extremes. When you can, think of two choices and make the better one. 

http://sandradodd.com/betterchoice.html

Life has real limits.  It's unreasonable to expect to be able to say yes all the time.  You would not be helping your children live responsibly in the world if you were to allow them to believe they could always have whatever they wanted.  Look at the real limits in your lives and from your circumstances, and make your choices from that real place.

<<If my kids want to go to the bowling alley and spend money on dumb games they should be able to do this whenever they want even though it’s money we must give them and literally in 15 minutes $20 bucks is gone.>>

Do your children have their own spending money?  Can you give them so much each, and let them use it as they would like, without judgement?  

When I was a girl I used to spend my allowance ($2/week) on candy.  I used to walk down to the Mac's Milk variety store near my home and fill a brown paper bag with all the candy I could afford.  I would eat it all before the afternoon was over.  It was so much fun.  I loved the colours, the shapes, the flavours, and the textures.  It was my money to spend, and I enjoyed that liberty immensely.  Maybe someone looking at me from the outside might have seen waste and junk and frivolity.  Thankfully nobody voiced that to me, because I saw and felt joy and richness and abundance.  

Think about how you can support your own children feeling joy and richness and abundance, even (and maybe especially) when you can only see "dumb games".  The more you come to understand unschooling, the more you will understand that your children are learning all the time.  And, you have great influence over what they learn.  Think about what they are learning when they see you begrudgingly handing over money for their "dumb games"? Let yourself imagine, what would they learn if they witnessed you generously sharing a few dollars with them for something you knew they enjoyed.  What would they learn if you stood there and cheered them on, instead of crossed your arms and judged them critically. What would they learn if they heard you say, "That's all the money I have for this for now, but I can't wait to do this again soon!  I loved watching your mad skills and wonderful enthusiasm!"?

Our own actions have the most influence on our children.  If we want to raise generous, compassionate children, we need to be generous, compassionate parents.  It hardly works any other way.

Tam Palmer

My eight year old, Finn, loves arcades. Actually my younger children do too, but Finn especially. Whenever we get the chance to have some time with just the two of us, he'll often choose the arcade. His favourite one is at the bowling alley. He's not bothered about going bowling, or the burger place that's there too, just the arcade. We usually take £20. He loves the change machine, that's like a jackpot of pound coins when you put a note in, or ten Ps when you put a pound in. He loves the giant versions of some of his iPad games, like doodle jump. He loves the sit on versions of some of his console games, like Mario Kart. He loves the penny push games and the grabber machines and the basketball. He loves going head to head with me on the zombie shooters. He loves seeing what new games they've got in since we last went. He loves that there's a machine that actually makes candy floss while you wait. (It plays Sugar Sugar by the Archies. Ha!)
Some of the machines give out little prize tickets depending on your score. Last time we went he won the ticket jackpot on one of them, and the machine was reeling out these tickets for maybe five minutes, as he scooped them up in his arms. But not before he'd literally done laps of the arcade punching the air :D Total and complete joy! He still talks about that day now :)
Without even breaking down what he's learning from the games at the arcade (and he is), it's all about that joy. I'm so lucky to be one of the people that not only gets to say yes when he asks to go there, but gets to be a part of it with him. It's not 'just' an arcade, as it might be written off as. And 'dumb' doesn't even come onto the radar. It's happy, and joyful, and bonding, and just plain fun. I'm actually struggling to put into words how awesome our visits there are, as I can just see his smiling face in my mind when I think about it! We've usually spent the £20 within about an hour, and he's usually had his fill of the games by then, but an hour of that much fun and happiness and closeness (and squealing!) for £20? Total bargain.

Tam

Sandra Dodd

This is something Jenny Cyphers wrote in on a different forum about a different topic, but I think it's applicable to this topic:

-=-If you are going to do this unschooling thing, do it well, do it with gusto, do it as if your child's whole future is at stake and you WANT them to be happy and bright and inquisitive and do what it takes to make that happen. If whatever advice is offered to you, if it isn't the means to that end goal, then scrap it. I'm saying right now that causing your child to know and feel like there is something wrong with them WILL NOT DO THAT! It will not create a happy and bright and inquisitive person.-=-

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

A couple of things in Tam's post are Brit-speak that will confuse Americans.

Tam wrote "-=- He's not bothered about going bowling, or the burger place that's there too, just the arcade.-=-

"Not bothered" means has no strong opinion—no preference.  

To Americans, the statement might look more like "He doesn't mind when we make him bowl, or press him to eat a burgher, but he is disturbed by the arcade."  

If you ask someone "do you want to go for pizza, or for noodles?" in the UK and the person shrugged and says "i'm not bothered," it means "whichever you want is fine."  

-=-He loves that there's a machine that actually makes candy floss while you wait. (It plays Sugar Sugar by the Archies. Ha!)-=-

Cotton candy machine.

-=-We've usually spent the £20 within about an hour, and he's usually had his fill of the games by then, but an hour of that much fun and happiness and closeness (and squealing!) for £20? Total bargain.-=-

Total bargain.
$33. :-)

When our kids were younger, old enough to go to arcades without us, but not teens, they collected tickets pooled them and bought me and Keith some little stainless-steel balancing toys—ten or so.  Each an athlete doing something, but a pin balances on a base, and it moves a bit.   We used to take them out on Christmas and set them up to play with them. I haven't done it for a few years.  I should do that next time we're all together.  

Sandra

Tam Palmer

-=-When our kids were younger, old enough to go to arcades without us, but not teens, they collected tickets pooled them and bought me and Keith some little stainless-steel balancing toys—ten or so.-=-

I meant to say, too, when Finn won all those tickets he chose a little toy for himself and a packet of stickers each for his brother and sister. Very sweet :)

Tam





semajrak@...


<<Sandra, you seem almost defensive, like you are trying to call me out?  Why?>>

Sandra actively removed your name from the post in the hopes of sheltering you (and your wife and children) from the consequences of your harsh words.  If that was not clear to you, *you* might need to look at why yourself.  

<<I was expressing FRUSTRATION and you have turned up my frustration>>

One of the most enlightening realizations I have yet to make in my short 44 years is that no other person can make me feel anything.  No one other than myself can make me angry.  No one other than myself can make me happy.  No one other than myself can make me frustrated.  I own my own feelings.  

Sandra does not have the power to turn up your frustration.  Don't hand that power over to anyone. You own it.  And, use it wisely.

K Pennell

I've seen lots of good advice from lots of people, but since I have had a similar experience, I'll share in case it is useful to anyone.

Since our son was school-age, my husband has been home with him days while I worked full time (he worked part time, different hours). While I knew we were doing a cool thing, sometimes I would come home and the house would be such a mess. My job was stressing me out, and I really wanted to feel like I could come home and relax, but I'd come home feeling tense about all I'd have to do at home. I found it hard to relax when it was very messy. I would clean, with a lot of resentment that my DH had all day to enjoy our son, and now I had to pick up after DH, instead of relaxing with our son. One day I sort of exploded to my husband about the mess ("What do you DO all day?"). He was very annoyed, but I did get a full list of a very wonderful day they had exploring nature, playing ball, watching Mythbusters, playing, talking about all sorts of things. I realized I didn't REALLY want my husband to ignore our son to clean house all day. I knew I didn't want my son to miss out on the wonderful relationship he had with his Dad. From that conversation and from posts here,  I realized I was jealous because I wanted to be the one home doing those wonderful things with my DS. I felt I was missing out. Realizing that, I became more cheerful about relaxing my housekeeping standards. I also had a great conversation with DH about my feelings of missing out, and he gladly helped with housework AFTER I got home so that I could have some special time with DS too. This particular solution may not work for everyone, but I think improving communication (calm, respectful kind communication) can help a lot, even if nothing else changes right away.
From: "semajrak@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2014 8:02 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: A dad angry about kids making messes




<<Sandra, you seem almost defensive, like you are trying to call me out?  Why?>>

Sandra actively removed your name from the post in the hopes of sheltering you (and your wife and children) from the consequences of your harsh words.  If that was not clear to you, *you* might need to look at why yourself.  

<<I was expressing FRUSTRATION and you have turned up my frustration>>

One of the most enlightening realizations I have yet to make in my short 44 years is that no other person can make me feel anything.  No one other than myself can make me angry.  No one other than myself can make me happy.  No one other than myself can make me frustrated.  I own my own feelings.  

Sandra does not have the power to turn up your frustration.  Don't hand that power over to anyone. You own it.  And, use it wisely.