Brother unhappy and wants control
melgqd
Hi all,
This week my two boys (8 and 11) have gone from one fight to the next. They all seem to have a similar pattern. Here is the latest and biggest. My 8 yo, Quinn, wants to see a particular movie before an upcoming trip to Chicago. My older, Griffin, wants to wait and see it after we return. The point of contention is that Griff does not want Q. to see it before he does. The pattern I notice is that when G. wants to get his way it very often involves not letting Q. get his or controlling his behavior in some way. Where as when Q. wants something, it does not involve controlling what G. does.
G. is very upset about the movie plan and is upset that my husband and I don't just do what he wants. We are inclined to let each child see the movie when they want but we don't feel it is right to tell Q. he can't see it when he wants because his brother doesn't want that. G. is now claiming that we like Q. more and "he always wins". My husband and I try to get each child what they need but it is hard when the one child wants to control the other.
Lately, G. has been generally unhappy and says he feels like he is waiting for something to happen or opportunities to be presented to him but doesn't know what. He doesn't like to go out, doesn't have any friends for playdates (his choice..He was never very social with playdates and such and after he left school (in 3rd) he slowly fell out with his 1 friend). We have a large family and he sees many of them throughout the week and we are always together. He does not want to take any class that involves other people. He has interests in special effects makeup, but feels he doesn't have the skill to pursue it, and doesn't want to develop the skills (he knows that basic drawing and sculpting is important for that field but doesn't want to work on those). This causes him much frustration. He also loves history esp. war time. We are going to the eastern U.S. for wartime tourist stuff in the fall. We watch a lot of movies and I try to bring in things he will enjoy but I find it hard to go out to find things to bring in. My 8yo doesn't like me to go out without him (even when he can stay with Dad) and he doesn't really like to go out so I'm feeling a bit limited.
I'm hoping you all can see something that I can't..
Thank you,
Melissa
This week my two boys (8 and 11) have gone from one fight to the next. They all seem to have a similar pattern. Here is the latest and biggest. My 8 yo, Quinn, wants to see a particular movie before an upcoming trip to Chicago. My older, Griffin, wants to wait and see it after we return. The point of contention is that Griff does not want Q. to see it before he does. The pattern I notice is that when G. wants to get his way it very often involves not letting Q. get his or controlling his behavior in some way. Where as when Q. wants something, it does not involve controlling what G. does.
G. is very upset about the movie plan and is upset that my husband and I don't just do what he wants. We are inclined to let each child see the movie when they want but we don't feel it is right to tell Q. he can't see it when he wants because his brother doesn't want that. G. is now claiming that we like Q. more and "he always wins". My husband and I try to get each child what they need but it is hard when the one child wants to control the other.
Lately, G. has been generally unhappy and says he feels like he is waiting for something to happen or opportunities to be presented to him but doesn't know what. He doesn't like to go out, doesn't have any friends for playdates (his choice..He was never very social with playdates and such and after he left school (in 3rd) he slowly fell out with his 1 friend). We have a large family and he sees many of them throughout the week and we are always together. He does not want to take any class that involves other people. He has interests in special effects makeup, but feels he doesn't have the skill to pursue it, and doesn't want to develop the skills (he knows that basic drawing and sculpting is important for that field but doesn't want to work on those). This causes him much frustration. He also loves history esp. war time. We are going to the eastern U.S. for wartime tourist stuff in the fall. We watch a lot of movies and I try to bring in things he will enjoy but I find it hard to go out to find things to bring in. My 8yo doesn't like me to go out without him (even when he can stay with Dad) and he doesn't really like to go out so I'm feeling a bit limited.
I'm hoping you all can see something that I can't..
Thank you,
Melissa
Carla-Marie Sutton
I really feel for you as I have a similar older child who often tries to control the younger siblings. Its a very difficult situation and I have had to remind the older child on occasion (sometimes quite bluntly) that they do not have the right to control what their younger siblings do and how would they feel if the situation were reversed.
Good luck - I hope you mange to work your way through this, Carla-Marie
Good luck - I hope you mange to work your way through this, Carla-Marie
Meredith
"melgqd" <boisei@...> wrote:
That's probably a big part of why there's a lot of conflict right now - it's hard and stressful to have that feeling of dissatisfaction. I've watched my kids go through phases like that at various times, and I've gone through phases like that as an adult, too. For that matter, my partner spent the winter in a phase like that - not knowing what he wanted, not really happy with anything... and he's in his 40s. Sometimes it's hard to know what's next.
More than just being stressful, that kind of state can feel very out of control - so there's a natural tendency to look for things To control. Help your son find More Appropriate things to control than other people (which is an act of futility anyway and only feeds in to feeling helpless). What sort of control Does he have in his life? Are there ways to broaden that?
Try to commiserate with your son about feeling at loose ends. Offer him new things gently. It can be super annoying to have someone throwing lots of bad ideas at you ;)
Whoa-up there! That's a lot of schoolish thinking, and that's bound to be part of the problem.
Get him some special effects make-up kits. I know they're around, I've seen them at unschooling gatherings. Find a real live make-up artist (maybe online) - not necessarily a special effects artist, but someone who knows make-up and body paint so you can get some recommendations for good supplies to play with. Get him a cosmetology head if he wants, or let him paint you and dad and any other friend or family member who will sit still long enough. Look up zombie art and cos-play online and find examples of home-made special effects. Go to a comic or movie or anime convention and geek out over the people in costume. Chat up some real life costumers and make-up artists and ask them how they got started - it wasn't with "building skills" it was with playing around, having fun with ideas, and making messes. Make sure he has space to make messes!
If your response to his ideas has tended to be "these are the skills you need to learn first" then it's no wonder he's feeling stuck - he Is stuck. To help him get unstuck find a way to say Yes to what he wants Right Now - not "once you've mastered the basics".
A quick search on deviant art pulls up this:
http://browse.deviantart.com/?q=zombie+make-up
http://browse.deviantart.com/?q=cosplay+makeup
Are you going to a re-enactment? That could be fun - and give him a chance to meet people who do make-up on the side as hobbies. Look into any kind of re-enactment groups you can find locally to see if any resonate with him. There's nothing like having fellow enthusiasts to share your interests.
Internet. Does he play any fighting video games? WoW or one of the survival Minecraft games? Bioshock?
What about comics? If there's a small comic shop in your area, go check it out. There will be war-related comics, for sure - everything from GI Joe to more "serious" period comics (I'm looking at an ad in an IDW comic right now for "Wild Blue Yonder" - WWII fighter pilots).
And comic shops often run gaming groups: table-top warfare and roll playing. And they're good places to learn about conventions and other cos-play venues.
---Meredith
>**************
> Lately, G. has been generally unhappy and says he feels like he is waiting for something to happen or opportunities to be presented to him but doesn't know what.
That's probably a big part of why there's a lot of conflict right now - it's hard and stressful to have that feeling of dissatisfaction. I've watched my kids go through phases like that at various times, and I've gone through phases like that as an adult, too. For that matter, my partner spent the winter in a phase like that - not knowing what he wanted, not really happy with anything... and he's in his 40s. Sometimes it's hard to know what's next.
More than just being stressful, that kind of state can feel very out of control - so there's a natural tendency to look for things To control. Help your son find More Appropriate things to control than other people (which is an act of futility anyway and only feeds in to feeling helpless). What sort of control Does he have in his life? Are there ways to broaden that?
Try to commiserate with your son about feeling at loose ends. Offer him new things gently. It can be super annoying to have someone throwing lots of bad ideas at you ;)
>>He has interests in special effects makeup, but feels he doesn't have the skill to pursue it, and doesn't want to develop the skills (he knows that basic drawing and sculpting is important for that field but doesn't want to work on those). This causes him much frustration.*************
Whoa-up there! That's a lot of schoolish thinking, and that's bound to be part of the problem.
Get him some special effects make-up kits. I know they're around, I've seen them at unschooling gatherings. Find a real live make-up artist (maybe online) - not necessarily a special effects artist, but someone who knows make-up and body paint so you can get some recommendations for good supplies to play with. Get him a cosmetology head if he wants, or let him paint you and dad and any other friend or family member who will sit still long enough. Look up zombie art and cos-play online and find examples of home-made special effects. Go to a comic or movie or anime convention and geek out over the people in costume. Chat up some real life costumers and make-up artists and ask them how they got started - it wasn't with "building skills" it was with playing around, having fun with ideas, and making messes. Make sure he has space to make messes!
If your response to his ideas has tended to be "these are the skills you need to learn first" then it's no wonder he's feeling stuck - he Is stuck. To help him get unstuck find a way to say Yes to what he wants Right Now - not "once you've mastered the basics".
A quick search on deviant art pulls up this:
http://browse.deviantart.com/?q=zombie+make-up
http://browse.deviantart.com/?q=cosplay+makeup
>>He also loves history esp. war time. We are going to the eastern U.S. for wartime tourist stuff in the fall.*************
Are you going to a re-enactment? That could be fun - and give him a chance to meet people who do make-up on the side as hobbies. Look into any kind of re-enactment groups you can find locally to see if any resonate with him. There's nothing like having fellow enthusiasts to share your interests.
>>We watch a lot of movies and I try to bring in things he will enjoy but I find it hard to go out to find things to bring in.***************
Internet. Does he play any fighting video games? WoW or one of the survival Minecraft games? Bioshock?
What about comics? If there's a small comic shop in your area, go check it out. There will be war-related comics, for sure - everything from GI Joe to more "serious" period comics (I'm looking at an ad in an IDW comic right now for "Wild Blue Yonder" - WWII fighter pilots).
And comic shops often run gaming groups: table-top warfare and roll playing. And they're good places to learn about conventions and other cos-play venues.
---Meredith
Ali Zeljo
Hi Melissa,
I have 2 boys 10 & 13 with a very similar dynamic- except in our case it is the younger who wants to control the older.
One thing I have found is that my 'controlling' kid has a very hard time communicating his needs calmly and verbally. It's like he reaches out desperately to control because he doesn't have the skills to communicate what his true issue is.
In the case you describe, have you attempted to help Griffin communicate why he doesn't want Quinn to view the movie first? And why he wants to wait until after Chicago? With my boys, it sometimes helps to get very detailed with the reasons for things. Why does Quinn want to see the movie before Chicago? After I have gathered as much detail, I facilitate a discussion between them. So, Quinn wants to see the movie before because he's been waiting for months for it to come out and doesn't want to wait any longer (or whatever his reason is) but Griffin wants to wait until he finishes reading the book... And he's very worried Quinn will tell him what happens... Or whatever their reasons are. And then we have a discussion brainstorming how we can make everyone happy. Usually the kids can come up with the solutions- and often miraculously they each give a little-- but also it happens sometimes that my easy going 13 year old just decides to let it go his brother's way. I think it makes a difference for him to know what his brother's reasons for the demand happen to be. And if it sounds reasonable, he's often okay with it.
These discussions have also revealed that my younger child can sometimes be rigid for no specific reason that he can explain. Almost seems like he's so willful that he is holding on to the fight just because he can't bear to lose. It is then that I explain why it is important to some of us to do it another way. I'll say something like maybe it would help you to hear why it's important to me to do it this way... And often that helps too- like giving him a pathway that allows him to break the stubbornness- to save face- to allow it to go his brother's way because mom also has a reason for it to happen.
Hope this helps,
Ali
I have 2 boys 10 & 13 with a very similar dynamic- except in our case it is the younger who wants to control the older.
One thing I have found is that my 'controlling' kid has a very hard time communicating his needs calmly and verbally. It's like he reaches out desperately to control because he doesn't have the skills to communicate what his true issue is.
In the case you describe, have you attempted to help Griffin communicate why he doesn't want Quinn to view the movie first? And why he wants to wait until after Chicago? With my boys, it sometimes helps to get very detailed with the reasons for things. Why does Quinn want to see the movie before Chicago? After I have gathered as much detail, I facilitate a discussion between them. So, Quinn wants to see the movie before because he's been waiting for months for it to come out and doesn't want to wait any longer (or whatever his reason is) but Griffin wants to wait until he finishes reading the book... And he's very worried Quinn will tell him what happens... Or whatever their reasons are. And then we have a discussion brainstorming how we can make everyone happy. Usually the kids can come up with the solutions- and often miraculously they each give a little-- but also it happens sometimes that my easy going 13 year old just decides to let it go his brother's way. I think it makes a difference for him to know what his brother's reasons for the demand happen to be. And if it sounds reasonable, he's often okay with it.
These discussions have also revealed that my younger child can sometimes be rigid for no specific reason that he can explain. Almost seems like he's so willful that he is holding on to the fight just because he can't bear to lose. It is then that I explain why it is important to some of us to do it another way. I'll say something like maybe it would help you to hear why it's important to me to do it this way... And often that helps too- like giving him a pathway that allows him to break the stubbornness- to save face- to allow it to go his brother's way because mom also has a reason for it to happen.
Hope this helps,
Ali
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CASS KOTRBA
>>He has interests in special effects makeup, but feels he doesn't have the skill to pursue it, and doesn't want to develop the skills (he knows that basic drawing and sculpting is important for that field but doesn't want to work on those). This causes him much frustration.*************
Do you get the Syfy channel, by any chance? There is a great reality show called "Face Off" where contestants create crazy characters through designing & creating their own make-up, masks & costumes. http://www.syfy.com/faceoff/<http://www.syfy.com/faceoff/> The judges set the inspiration (ex, one week they had some Marvel Comics people as guest judges, often it's horror, sometimes more fairy tale oriented) & the artists go crazy with ideas. There have been 3 seasons with a 4th coming in August so there are lots of reruns. They show a lot of the artists process and it's very informative & inspiring, not to mention fun! Maybe you could order some silicone or other medium online & he could practice making molds. Order some clay so he can come up with his own creations to mold.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CASS KOTRBA
-=-Maybe you could order some silicone or other medium online & he could practice making molds. Order some clay so he can come up with his own creations to mold. -=-
Maybe he'd like to create something in clay, create a silicone mold of it and use that mold to make candles or melt & pour soap. I'm envisioning a brain shape, dog poop or whatever he finds entertaining - maybe it's a military item or something. I think simpler is better at first because it's easy to get frustrated & down on yourself when you can't get it the way you envision. There is no need to draw up a plan, just see what evolves. Some of my best creations started out as mistakes. It's all just how you look at it. Candle making in general might be a fun thing for him. It feels a little scary, with the hot wax. Personally, I like to try things that push me & scare me just a little bit. Start small & simple... maybe just start off melting some parafin wax from the grocery store in an old can that's sitting in a pan of hot water. When it melts try adding crayon pieces & swirling them around to partially melt. Poor it into a clear container & admire. Experiment.
Maybe he'd like to create something in clay, create a silicone mold of it and use that mold to make candles or melt & pour soap. I'm envisioning a brain shape, dog poop or whatever he finds entertaining - maybe it's a military item or something. I think simpler is better at first because it's easy to get frustrated & down on yourself when you can't get it the way you envision. There is no need to draw up a plan, just see what evolves. Some of my best creations started out as mistakes. It's all just how you look at it. Candle making in general might be a fun thing for him. It feels a little scary, with the hot wax. Personally, I like to try things that push me & scare me just a little bit. Start small & simple... maybe just start off melting some parafin wax from the grocery store in an old can that's sitting in a pan of hot water. When it melts try adding crayon pieces & swirling them around to partially melt. Poor it into a clear container & admire. Experiment.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<He has interests in special effects makeup, but feels he doesn't have the skill to pursue it, and doesn't want to develop the skills (he knows that basic drawing and sculpting is important for that field but doesn't want to work on those).>>>>
I am thinking here that you are still seeing things from a very schoolish point of view . Can you just buy him some Holloween make up and let him play with make up ? Lots of kids do it. Some will do a pretty great job making zombies and they have not done any drawing or sculpting!
<<<<< My 8yo doesn't like me to go out without him (even when he can stay with Dad) and he doesn't really like to go out so I'm feeling a bit limited.
I'm hoping you all can see something that I can't..>>>>>>
If my 8 year old did not want me to go anywhere because he did not like going places and he could stay home with dad , I would go anyway to take my other child places he wanted to go. It would be that simple.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am thinking here that you are still seeing things from a very schoolish point of view . Can you just buy him some Holloween make up and let him play with make up ? Lots of kids do it. Some will do a pretty great job making zombies and they have not done any drawing or sculpting!
<<<<< My 8yo doesn't like me to go out without him (even when he can stay with Dad) and he doesn't really like to go out so I'm feeling a bit limited.
I'm hoping you all can see something that I can't..>>>>>>
If my 8 year old did not want me to go anywhere because he did not like going places and he could stay home with dad , I would go anyway to take my other child places he wanted to go. It would be that simple.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
melgqd
-
Maybe I'm too close to this, does that still seem schoolish?
Melissa
> I am thinking here that you are still seeing things from a very schoolish point of view . Can you just buy him some Holloween make up and let him play with make up ? Lots of kids do it. Some will do a pretty great job making zombies and they have not done any drawing or sculpting!We have tons of makeup and kits and latex, armatures, alginate etc. and he has made prosthetic cuts and stuff but feels that they don't look very good. Both my husband and I thought they were pretty good and told him so. He wants to be great but feels frustrated with his efforts so far. We have been in contact with a few special effects makeup artists and most of the advice is to work on drawing the human form (if you are a creature creator - which my son likes) because everything is based on the human form. G. hates drawing so we've been trying to find other things to work on; sculpt or paint or just do makeup. I don't think it is necessary to do things in a particularly linear way but I have mentioned to him that practice is the best way to get better.
>
Maybe I'm too close to this, does that still seem schoolish?
Melissa
Pam Sorooshian
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 5:12 AM, Carla-Marie Sutton <
carlamarie_33@...> wrote:
there are reasons for the behaviors. Those younger kids were always cuter
than I was, always got to stay being "the baby" and got that sweetest kind
of loving attention. It may not have been true, but that is how the older
child perceives it and the feelings are 100 percent real. I would have
simultaneously been embarrassed to be treated like a baby and desperately
wanted to be treated that way (and I mean loved and hugged and talked to
super sweetly and taken care of and carried!! Carried - believe me I
noticed and it caused me grief that my younger siblings could still be
carried in my parents' arms long after they couldn't any longer carry me.).
Find more ways to be on his team - share more jokes with just him, offer
him things, find a movie he wants to watch and watch with him, take him
with you places alone. And please please cuddle up with him, touch him,
kiss the top of his head, brush his cheek with your hand, look into his
eyes with love!!! Do a TON of it. Don't say, "I do all that." Do more
anyway.
And I'd say do NOT tell him he can't control his brother, etc. Let that go
for a while - maybe 6 months. Just work around it best you can. I'm not
saying let him, but find workarounds and be calm and matter-of-fact about
it. When you say, "Well, the best solution I can think of is he watches it
now and you want it later," and he says, "NO, I do not want him to watch
first," just be sympathetic and say, "Yeah, I can understand that." Smile.
"Oh well." And move on quickly and calmly and assume that this is just one
of life's little setbacks and he can handle it. It is okay if he is
unhappy for a bit - that's life. Move on quickly to something else.
But don't make those interactions your focus. Make your focus be on loving
him for the next few months in a way you have slipped away from as he got
so grown up.
Don't embarrass him with it, but really love him. Look in his eyes a lot.
Remember every time he talks to you turn around and really look at him with
full attention.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carlamarie_33@...> wrote:
> Its a very difficult situation and I have had to remind the older child onAs a controlling older child myself, please please try to remember that
> occasion (sometimes quite bluntly) that they do not have the right to
> control what their younger siblings do and how would they feel if the
> situation were reversed.
there are reasons for the behaviors. Those younger kids were always cuter
than I was, always got to stay being "the baby" and got that sweetest kind
of loving attention. It may not have been true, but that is how the older
child perceives it and the feelings are 100 percent real. I would have
simultaneously been embarrassed to be treated like a baby and desperately
wanted to be treated that way (and I mean loved and hugged and talked to
super sweetly and taken care of and carried!! Carried - believe me I
noticed and it caused me grief that my younger siblings could still be
carried in my parents' arms long after they couldn't any longer carry me.).
Find more ways to be on his team - share more jokes with just him, offer
him things, find a movie he wants to watch and watch with him, take him
with you places alone. And please please cuddle up with him, touch him,
kiss the top of his head, brush his cheek with your hand, look into his
eyes with love!!! Do a TON of it. Don't say, "I do all that." Do more
anyway.
And I'd say do NOT tell him he can't control his brother, etc. Let that go
for a while - maybe 6 months. Just work around it best you can. I'm not
saying let him, but find workarounds and be calm and matter-of-fact about
it. When you say, "Well, the best solution I can think of is he watches it
now and you want it later," and he says, "NO, I do not want him to watch
first," just be sympathetic and say, "Yeah, I can understand that." Smile.
"Oh well." And move on quickly and calmly and assume that this is just one
of life's little setbacks and he can handle it. It is okay if he is
unhappy for a bit - that's life. Move on quickly to something else.
But don't make those interactions your focus. Make your focus be on loving
him for the next few months in a way you have slipped away from as he got
so grown up.
Don't embarrass him with it, but really love him. Look in his eyes a lot.
Remember every time he talks to you turn around and really look at him with
full attention.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
melgqd
--- In [email protected], "CASS KOTRBA" <caskot@...> wrote:
Melissa
> Do you get the Syfy channel, by any chance? There is a great reality show called "Face Off" where contestants create crazy characters through designing & creating their own make-up, masks & costumes. http://www.syfy.com/faceoff/<http://www.syfy.com/faceoff/>We are totally devoted to that show! It is inspiring to see what people can do and frustrating because these guys are so good and they make it look easy.
Melissa
melgqd
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
I have been feeling like I've been letting Griffin down lately because I'm out of ideas of things to do at home aside from laptop stuff (watching, searching for things) and video games) and the occasionally bout of sword fighting or gardening. As an 11 yo he is not into toys anymore really, but not really into projects that I can help with. We still play some role playing games but when we all play together he and Quinn usually get in a disagreement about the rules of the game and one will leave because he is no longer enjoying it.
Melissa
>Thanks Pam. I think this probably accounts for so much. Griffin has increasingly been sending messages that he wants to be left alone. e.g. he watches his laptop or plays video games with a sheet over him. So it feels like it is getting harder to share what he is doing. He does invite me to watch certain parts of three stooges movies for example and I'll share something with him, but I guess generally i've gotten in the habit of leaving him alone. Conversely Quinn (8) is very social with me and wants to talk or play games or go with me quite often. Quinn is also very good at saying "I need attention now" whereas Griff would never say that.
> Find more ways to be on his team - share more jokes with just him, offer
> him things, find a movie he wants to watch and watch with him, take him
> with you places alone. And please please cuddle up with him, touch him,
> kiss the top of his head, brush his cheek with your hand, look into his
> eyes with love!!! Do a TON of it. Don't say, "I do all that." Do more
> anyway.
>
> And I'd say do NOT tell him he can't control his brother, etc. Let that go
> for a while - maybe 6 months. Just work around it best you can. I'm not
> saying let him, but find workarounds and be calm and matter-of-fact about
> it. When you say, "Well, the best solution I can think of is he watches it
> now and you want it later," and he says, "NO, I do not want him to watch
> first," just be sympathetic and say, "Yeah, I can understand that." Smile.
> "Oh well." And move on quickly and calmly and assume that this is just one
> of life's little setbacks and he can handle it. It is okay if he is
> unhappy for a bit - that's life. Move on quickly to something else.
>
I have been feeling like I've been letting Griffin down lately because I'm out of ideas of things to do at home aside from laptop stuff (watching, searching for things) and video games) and the occasionally bout of sword fighting or gardening. As an 11 yo he is not into toys anymore really, but not really into projects that I can help with. We still play some role playing games but when we all play together he and Quinn usually get in a disagreement about the rules of the game and one will leave because he is no longer enjoying it.
Melissa
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 23, 2013, at 7:34 PM, melgqd wrote:
There are several things I've wanted to do in life that I didn't enjoy the process of getting better at. Japanese and guitar to name two. I watched my daughter play around with the guitar. She enjoyed the challenge of figuring out various skills like tapping and making up her own riffs and solos. I didn't. I just wanted to jump right to playing a song well. Now she plays really well and writes her own stuff. I can stumble through Judas Priest's Breaking the Law.
It *is* frustrating to want to be more skillful than you're capable of. My daughter despaired over the years that she couldn't draw as well as people she admired on deviantArt. I suggested she try copying them. That didn't interest her. But she did keep drawing things she liked in her own style. Not for the purposes of practice. But because she enjoyed doing that. Interestingly -- and significantly -- the people she admired were in their early 20s. Now that she's approaching 22 she's had a recent jump in skills and her ability is similar to the people she admired. There's probably a big leap in brain maturity in the early 20s. So what she's doing now she wasn't capable of before no matter how much she drew. And she has been drawing loads and loads since she was 4.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> but I have mentioned to him that practice is the best way to get better.There's two things that will help. Getting older. And doing stuff you enjoy. Practice that's rote is likely to yield the ability to do things mechanically. If he dislikes the practice he may decide what he's practicing for isn't worth the irritation.
There are several things I've wanted to do in life that I didn't enjoy the process of getting better at. Japanese and guitar to name two. I watched my daughter play around with the guitar. She enjoyed the challenge of figuring out various skills like tapping and making up her own riffs and solos. I didn't. I just wanted to jump right to playing a song well. Now she plays really well and writes her own stuff. I can stumble through Judas Priest's Breaking the Law.
It *is* frustrating to want to be more skillful than you're capable of. My daughter despaired over the years that she couldn't draw as well as people she admired on deviantArt. I suggested she try copying them. That didn't interest her. But she did keep drawing things she liked in her own style. Not for the purposes of practice. But because she enjoyed doing that. Interestingly -- and significantly -- the people she admired were in their early 20s. Now that she's approaching 22 she's had a recent jump in skills and her ability is similar to the people she admired. There's probably a big leap in brain maturity in the early 20s. So what she's doing now she wasn't capable of before no matter how much she drew. And she has been drawing loads and loads since she was 4.
Joyce
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Joyce Fetteroll
Sorry, this may show up twice at some point. Or not ...
On Jun 23, 2013, at 7:34 PM, melgqd wrote:
> but I have mentioned to him that practice is the best way to get better.
There's two things that will help. Getting older. And doing stuff you enjoy. Practice that's rote is likely to yield the ability to do things mechanically. If he dislikes the practice he may decide what he's practicing for isn't worth the irritation.
There are several things I've wanted to do in life that I didn't enjoy the process of getting better at. Japanese and guitar to name two. I watched my daughter play around with the guitar. She enjoyed the challenge of figuring out various skills like tapping and making up her own riffs and solos. I didn't. I just wanted to jump right to playing a song well. Now she plays really well and writes her own stuff. I can stumble through Judas Priest's Breaking the Law.
It *is* frustrating to want to be more skillful than you're capable of. My daughter despaired over the years that she couldn't draw as well as people she admired on deviantArt. I suggested she try copying them. That didn't interest her. But she did keep drawing things she liked in her own style. Not for the purposes of practice. But because she enjoyed doing that. Interestingly -- and significantly -- the people she admired were in their early 20s. Now that she's approaching 22 she's had a recent jump in skills and her ability is similar to the people she admired. There's probably a big leap in brain maturity in the early 20s. So what she's doing now she wasn't capable of before no matter how much she drew. And she has been drawing loads and loads since she was 4.
Encourage him to do things he enjoys. Sympathize that it's frustrating to want to be better. Reassure him he'll be better as his brain matures. Maybe talk about stuff he found difficult at one time that's now easy.
Joyce
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<<<<<<<<. Griffin has increasingly been sending messages that he wants to be left alone. e.g. he watches his laptop or plays video games with a sheet over him. So it feels like it is getting harder to share what he is doing. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Does he have his own room so that he can retreat and do his things privately? It is really important for my son to be able to have his room to retreat and be alone in a private place. He will invite his sister to play with him sometimes for half the day but he can just tell her he wants to be alone too.
Alex Polikowsky
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Does he have his own room so that he can retreat and do his things privately? It is really important for my son to be able to have his room to retreat and be alone in a private place. He will invite his sister to play with him sometimes for half the day but he can just tell her he wants to be alone too.
Alex Polikowsky
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melgqd
--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
Soon we are going to get another game system and TV and put it in their room. That will split things up, different game systems in different places, hopefully for the better.
Melissa
> Does he have his own room so that he can retreat and do his things privately? It is really important for my son to be able to have his room to retreat and be alone in a private place. He will invite his sister to play with him sometimes for half the day but he can just tell her he wants to be alone too.I wish we had the space for him to have his own room, but we don't and the boys have to share. But no one uses the room during the day. I've suggested that Griff could move back there sometimes when he is under blanket and too warm and he says he prefers to be in the same room with everyone else.
>
Soon we are going to get another game system and TV and put it in their room. That will split things up, different game systems in different places, hopefully for the better.
Melissa
Meredith
> Maybe he'd like to create something in clay, create a silicone mold of it and use that mold to make candles or melt & pour soap.*************
This is getting off topic, but I've made molds professionally - don't start with silicone! Start with a brush-on polyurethane. It's much cheaper and it's super-easy to use. And you can get small kit size orders of the stuff.
---Meredith
Meredith
"melgqd" <boisei@...> wrote:
What about playing around with images someplace like Deviant Art? Honestly, the advice to "work on blah blah blah" Does still sound pretty schooly. He doesn't Want to work on skills, he wants to do what he wants to do. And part of that may include getting frustrated and deciding he doesn't want to do it any more. It's not working for him. That's a normal artist's reaction: this isn't working for me.
My daughter loves animation but her drawing ability is... pretty average for her age (11). I could advise her to practice drawing - it's normal educational advice for someone in her position - but that would be really belittling to her. She doesn't want to Become and animator, she wants to make an animation. So I make sure she has lots and lots of resources which let her make basic animations with the skills she has right now - slide-show sorts of things with drawings modified from stock images of cartoon characters.
Has your son looked at the sorts of things kids his age are doing - via youtube or whatever? I'm thinking talking to adult make-up artists might have been a mistake (I know, I suggested it, too, didn't I?) because it skewed his standards. He's not Going to do the same kind of work adults do and looking at what they do may be dragging down his opinion of himself and his skills. It helped Mo a lot to look at other kid videos so she could shift her expectations to what was really possible for someone with her skills.
I also know from experience that sometimes artists take breaks from things for months and even years - intentionally or otherwise. Giving up on make-up art now doesn't necessarily mean he'll never do it again. He may just need to do something else for awhile - that's a very natural way of "building new skills" actually. I know several artists who have dropped something only to come back later and find we've learned a lot of things that inform our art... all without intending to do so. That's how learning works in real life, after all.
If he's a natural perfectionist, then it may be something he's just going to have to work through, over and over - because he's going to fall short of his own unrealistic standards over and over. That's something my partner goes through, and I don't have any great advice as to how to help... other than it Doesn't help to say "oh, but your work is really good". That only brings on a litany of all the flaws he sees! Instead I treat it like depression - I can't fix it, but I can be here for you.
---Meredith
>We have been in contact with a few special effects makeup artists and most of the advice is to work on drawing the human form (if you are a creature creator - which my son likes) because everything is based on the human form. G. hates drawing so we've been trying to find other things to work on; sculpt or paint or just do makeup.*************
What about playing around with images someplace like Deviant Art? Honestly, the advice to "work on blah blah blah" Does still sound pretty schooly. He doesn't Want to work on skills, he wants to do what he wants to do. And part of that may include getting frustrated and deciding he doesn't want to do it any more. It's not working for him. That's a normal artist's reaction: this isn't working for me.
My daughter loves animation but her drawing ability is... pretty average for her age (11). I could advise her to practice drawing - it's normal educational advice for someone in her position - but that would be really belittling to her. She doesn't want to Become and animator, she wants to make an animation. So I make sure she has lots and lots of resources which let her make basic animations with the skills she has right now - slide-show sorts of things with drawings modified from stock images of cartoon characters.
Has your son looked at the sorts of things kids his age are doing - via youtube or whatever? I'm thinking talking to adult make-up artists might have been a mistake (I know, I suggested it, too, didn't I?) because it skewed his standards. He's not Going to do the same kind of work adults do and looking at what they do may be dragging down his opinion of himself and his skills. It helped Mo a lot to look at other kid videos so she could shift her expectations to what was really possible for someone with her skills.
I also know from experience that sometimes artists take breaks from things for months and even years - intentionally or otherwise. Giving up on make-up art now doesn't necessarily mean he'll never do it again. He may just need to do something else for awhile - that's a very natural way of "building new skills" actually. I know several artists who have dropped something only to come back later and find we've learned a lot of things that inform our art... all without intending to do so. That's how learning works in real life, after all.
If he's a natural perfectionist, then it may be something he's just going to have to work through, over and over - because he's going to fall short of his own unrealistic standards over and over. That's something my partner goes through, and I don't have any great advice as to how to help... other than it Doesn't help to say "oh, but your work is really good". That only brings on a litany of all the flaws he sees! Instead I treat it like depression - I can't fix it, but I can be here for you.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-. Griffin has increasingly been sending messages that he wants to be left alone. e.g. he watches his laptop or plays video games with a sheet over him.-=-
Can you make him a desk or kind of private area?
Can you let him have the room alone to play video games so he doesn't need a sheet over him?
Lack of space and privacy can cause problems in the best of people. This page has a link to something about a "rat park" study:
http://sandradodd.com/protect
The topic of the page might not seem to be applicable, but it might be more than you think. (Some parts might apply.)
People need privacy, especially introverts. Perhaps he's an introvert and you're not? That could make him seem odd, or wrong. And if you're talking to him about it, you're probably talking too much.
Some pages on my site with reference to introversion and what might help, or what parents should remember or consider:
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/logic
http://sandradodd.com/tvchoice.html
http://sandradodd.com/minecraft
http://sandradodd.com/groups
http://sandradodd.com/t/gilligan
http://sandradodd.com/t/cartoons
http://sandradodd.com/physicality/
http://sandradodd.com/chats/bigbook/page25_Dads.html
http://sandradodd.com/chats/pushing (long; search for "introvert")
http://sandradodd.com/images/introverts.jpg
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Can you make him a desk or kind of private area?
Can you let him have the room alone to play video games so he doesn't need a sheet over him?
Lack of space and privacy can cause problems in the best of people. This page has a link to something about a "rat park" study:
http://sandradodd.com/protect
The topic of the page might not seem to be applicable, but it might be more than you think. (Some parts might apply.)
People need privacy, especially introverts. Perhaps he's an introvert and you're not? That could make him seem odd, or wrong. And if you're talking to him about it, you're probably talking too much.
Some pages on my site with reference to introversion and what might help, or what parents should remember or consider:
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/logic
http://sandradodd.com/tvchoice.html
http://sandradodd.com/minecraft
http://sandradodd.com/groups
http://sandradodd.com/t/gilligan
http://sandradodd.com/t/cartoons
http://sandradodd.com/physicality/
http://sandradodd.com/chats/bigbook/page25_Dads.html
http://sandradodd.com/chats/pushing (long; search for "introvert")
http://sandradodd.com/images/introverts.jpg
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Sandra Dodd
-=-I wish we had the space for him to have his own room, but we don't and the boys have to share. -=-
I don't think "have to" is necessary, even in a small house.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't think "have to" is necessary, even in a small house.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
A good sized closet can work for a tiny little computer room. A slightly bigger one can work for a little bed room.
Book-cases can be temporary walls - or maybe not so temporary, but not built into the house. A couple book-cases bracketing a corner is a small private room. Hang a sheet across the opening and it even has a door.
Or you can hang fabric from the ceiling (if you don't mind attaching things to the ceiling) and make a soft-sided room, like an indoor tent.
---Meredith
>> Can you make him a desk or kind of private area?*************
> Can you let him have the room alone to play video games so he doesn't need a sheet over him?
A good sized closet can work for a tiny little computer room. A slightly bigger one can work for a little bed room.
Book-cases can be temporary walls - or maybe not so temporary, but not built into the house. A couple book-cases bracketing a corner is a small private room. Hang a sheet across the opening and it even has a door.
Or you can hang fabric from the ceiling (if you don't mind attaching things to the ceiling) and make a soft-sided room, like an indoor tent.
---Meredith