Video game/TV viewing
Howdy
Hello all,
Throughout the past 2 years we have evolved from 5 kids (8, 9, 11, 13, and 15) in private school to homeschooling, and finally this winter to unschooling. The one issue that my husband and i just can't get past is the unlimited video game/tv time issue. We talk about it, I feel like i've read every link available on the subject, and then we say, "Ok, let's do it"....Fast forward to 9 days of our kids looking at screens for 7-12 hours apiece, we question it. The little ones are weepy and bickering by the end of the day; and the big kids are zombies.
We have seen glimpses of positive results with our older boys as we've spent time with them while gaming. However, not sure it outweighs the "Night of the Living Dead" experience that goes with it. lol
I posted the Pam Sorooshian article on FB about marginal utility and tv viewing, and 20+ people poked holes through her argument. They were all well meaning, and i had asked for their input....so i guess, what did i expect? However, i'm not sure where to go with it.
Anyway, I'd like to know what other people's experiences have been with transitioning to the unlimited screen time, especially in regard to pre-teen/teenage boys and gaming. How long did it take for them to level out? etc.
Any input is appreciated as this is new to us, and I am attempting not to be frantic. :)
Thank you,
Brigitte
Throughout the past 2 years we have evolved from 5 kids (8, 9, 11, 13, and 15) in private school to homeschooling, and finally this winter to unschooling. The one issue that my husband and i just can't get past is the unlimited video game/tv time issue. We talk about it, I feel like i've read every link available on the subject, and then we say, "Ok, let's do it"....Fast forward to 9 days of our kids looking at screens for 7-12 hours apiece, we question it. The little ones are weepy and bickering by the end of the day; and the big kids are zombies.
We have seen glimpses of positive results with our older boys as we've spent time with them while gaming. However, not sure it outweighs the "Night of the Living Dead" experience that goes with it. lol
I posted the Pam Sorooshian article on FB about marginal utility and tv viewing, and 20+ people poked holes through her argument. They were all well meaning, and i had asked for their input....so i guess, what did i expect? However, i'm not sure where to go with it.
Anyway, I'd like to know what other people's experiences have been with transitioning to the unlimited screen time, especially in regard to pre-teen/teenage boys and gaming. How long did it take for them to level out? etc.
Any input is appreciated as this is new to us, and I am attempting not to be frantic. :)
Thank you,
Brigitte
sandralynndodd
-=-We have seen glimpses of positive results with our older boys as we've spent time with them while gaming. However, not sure it outweighs the "Night of the Living Dead" experience that goes with it. lol -=-
The "lol" is the worst thing in your post. If you don't want to be compassionate and understanding of your children's interests, unschooling won't work out for you. If you're disdainful and call them zombies, they are unlikely to share their joys and lives with you openly.
-=-I posted the Pam Sorooshian article on FB about marginal utility and tv viewing, and 20+ people poked holes through her argument. They were all well meaning, and i had asked for their input....so i guess, what did i expect? However, i'm not sure where to go with it.-=-
"Poked holes" or took shots?
Do you know those twenty people personally? How happy are their families? Because I'm sitting one table over from where Pam Sorooshian is sitting talking to some other unschooling moms. Two of her young-adult daughters are sitting with her. Across the room, her other daughter is involve din a board game with seven other people--a dad, two of my kids, a young boy...
-=i'm not sure where to go with it.-=-
If you wanted someone to suggest that Pam (who teaches economics at a college and has for many years) doesn't understand the principles of economics, then you found what you wanted!
If you would prefer to believe that Pam would have bullshitted those ideas rather than drawing on her personal experience with unschooling her children who get along remarkably well with each other and with their parents, then you went to the right place.
Those twenty+ families... Any unschoolers? Any economists? Any of them really trying to help you have a more loving relationship with your children?
Sandra
The "lol" is the worst thing in your post. If you don't want to be compassionate and understanding of your children's interests, unschooling won't work out for you. If you're disdainful and call them zombies, they are unlikely to share their joys and lives with you openly.
-=-I posted the Pam Sorooshian article on FB about marginal utility and tv viewing, and 20+ people poked holes through her argument. They were all well meaning, and i had asked for their input....so i guess, what did i expect? However, i'm not sure where to go with it.-=-
"Poked holes" or took shots?
Do you know those twenty people personally? How happy are their families? Because I'm sitting one table over from where Pam Sorooshian is sitting talking to some other unschooling moms. Two of her young-adult daughters are sitting with her. Across the room, her other daughter is involve din a board game with seven other people--a dad, two of my kids, a young boy...
-=i'm not sure where to go with it.-=-
If you wanted someone to suggest that Pam (who teaches economics at a college and has for many years) doesn't understand the principles of economics, then you found what you wanted!
If you would prefer to believe that Pam would have bullshitted those ideas rather than drawing on her personal experience with unschooling her children who get along remarkably well with each other and with their parents, then you went to the right place.
Those twenty+ families... Any unschoolers? Any economists? Any of them really trying to help you have a more loving relationship with your children?
Sandra
Schuyler
>>We talk about it, I feel like i've read every link available on the subject, and then we say, "Ok, let's do it"....Fast forward to 9 days of our kids looking at screens for 7-12 hours apiece, we question it. The little ones are weepy and bickering by the end of the day; and the big kids are zombies.<<Did you read this page? http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely%c2%a0It's not about video games. It's not about computer time. It's not about television. It may not have fallen within your original search. It's about time with a child even though the title of the piece is how to unschool. It's about being generous with your time with your children. While they are playing are you hanging out with them? Are you looking for ways to connect with them and with their interest? Are you touching them while they play, making sure that they have food at regular intervals during the day, bringing them drinks? Are you taking the time to be with them, at least the same amount of time that you were spending with them before you decided to do it?
Weepy and bickering suggests tired and hungry. Rather than laying hungry and tired at the door of television watching and video game playing think about how long a day they've had, think about what they've eaten. Feed them. Set up something quiet and calm for them to do. Read to them. Watch a movie together. Listen to music. Or maybe go out somewhere. To the mall. To a movie. For an evening swim at an indoor pool.
A zombie is a lurching, brain-seeking, fictitious creature. That might be fun. I don't know if that's really what you mean. It may help if you think about what you mean and write those words instead of grab for the word that seems funny while also being cruel. It's also not descriptive. I don't really know what it means. Whatever it means, it could indicate that you think video games or television watching are the equivalent to being dead and that they have risen again to lurch about. It indicates that you don't yet see video games or television watching as a valuable thing. You see them as something that you want your children to self-regulate to a level that is in accordance with what you deem appropriate. Maybe that isn't true, but the use of the term zombie isn't a happy embracing of their choices.
Nor is the vision of them looking at screens. I have screens on my windows to keep insect out. I need a few more. But when I'm at the computer or playing a video game or watching a television show or a movie, all of those are really different from just staring at a screen. Today, for example, I watched this group called CDZA perform as a human jukebox with a speed up and slow down setting as street performers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbdewwtm70w. I shared that with my 15 year old son. It led us through to a few other CDZA videos and then I answered a few e-mails while Simon researched more about a role playing game he's interested in playing. Just now. Just this moment, or that moment past, Linnaea came over and asked me to compare, for cuteness, owls versus cockatiels. Sloths won. But giant earthworms came into the discussion. The computer was a tool in the conversation. Nobody was left lurching about seeking brains. The bickering was part of
the conversation. It wasn't in solitude.
Deb Lewis wrote once, and I didn't keep it and I wish I had 'cause I can't find it to show off to all and sundry, that time is the key. That whenever people come and say something isn't working with unschooling her first thought is that they need to spend more time with their child or with their children. Time. Spend time with your children. Hang out with them while they are doing what they love. Find out why they love it. Know that it has value because these valuable people value it.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely%c2%a0
sorry it didn't come through the first time.
________________________________
From: Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, 29 December 2012, 19:18
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Video game/TV viewing
Weepy and bickering suggests tired and hungry. Rather than laying hungry and tired at the door of television watching and video game playing think about how long a day they've had, think about what they've eaten. Feed them. Set up something quiet and calm for them to do. Read to them. Watch a movie together. Listen to music. Or maybe go out somewhere. To the mall. To a movie. For an evening swim at an indoor pool.
A zombie is a lurching, brain-seeking, fictitious creature. That might be fun. I don't know if that's really what you mean. It may help if you think about what you mean and write those words instead of grab for the word that seems funny while also being cruel. It's also not descriptive. I don't really know what it means. Whatever it means, it could indicate that you think video games or television watching are the equivalent to being dead and that they have risen again to lurch about. It indicates that you don't yet see video games or television watching as a valuable thing. You see them as something that you want your children to self-regulate to a level that is in accordance with what you deem appropriate. Maybe that isn't true, but the use of the term zombie isn't a happy embracing of their choices.
Nor is the vision of them looking at screens. I have screens on my windows to keep insect out. I need a few more. But when I'm at the computer or playing a video game or watching a television show or a movie, all of those are really different from just staring at a screen. Today, for example, I watched this group called CDZA perform as a human jukebox with a speed up and slow down setting as street performers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbdewwtm70w. I shared that with my 15 year old son. It led us through to a few other CDZA videos and then I answered a few e-mails while Simon researched more about a role playing game he's interested in playing. Just now. Just this moment, or that moment past, Linnaea came over and asked me to compare, for cuteness, owls versus cockatiels. Sloths won. But giant earthworms came into the discussion. The computer was a tool in the conversation. Nobody was left lurching about seeking brains. The bickering was part of
the conversation. It wasn't in solitude.
Deb Lewis wrote once, and I didn't keep it and I wish I had 'cause I can't find it to show off to all and sundry, that time is the key. That whenever people come and say something isn't working with unschooling her first thought is that they need to spend more time with their child or with their children. Time. Spend time with your children. Hang out with them while they are doing what they love. Find out why they love it. Know that it has value because these valuable people value it.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sorry it didn't come through the first time.
________________________________
From: Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, 29 December 2012, 19:18
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Video game/TV viewing
>>We talk about it, I feel like i've read every link available on the subject, and then we say, "Ok, let's do it"....Fast forward to 9 days of our kids looking at screens for 7-12 hours apiece, we question it. The little ones are weepy and bickering by the end of the day; and the big kids are zombies.<<Did you read this page? http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely%c2%a0It's not about video games. It's not about computer time. It's not about television. It may not have fallen within your original search. It's about time with a child even though the title of the piece is how to unschool. It's about being generous with your time with your children. While they are playing are you hanging out with them? Are you looking for ways to connect with them and with their interest? Are you touching them while they play, making sure that they have food at regular intervals during the day, bringing them drinks? Are you taking the time to be with them, at least the same amount of time that you were spending with them before you decided to do it?
Weepy and bickering suggests tired and hungry. Rather than laying hungry and tired at the door of television watching and video game playing think about how long a day they've had, think about what they've eaten. Feed them. Set up something quiet and calm for them to do. Read to them. Watch a movie together. Listen to music. Or maybe go out somewhere. To the mall. To a movie. For an evening swim at an indoor pool.
A zombie is a lurching, brain-seeking, fictitious creature. That might be fun. I don't know if that's really what you mean. It may help if you think about what you mean and write those words instead of grab for the word that seems funny while also being cruel. It's also not descriptive. I don't really know what it means. Whatever it means, it could indicate that you think video games or television watching are the equivalent to being dead and that they have risen again to lurch about. It indicates that you don't yet see video games or television watching as a valuable thing. You see them as something that you want your children to self-regulate to a level that is in accordance with what you deem appropriate. Maybe that isn't true, but the use of the term zombie isn't a happy embracing of their choices.
Nor is the vision of them looking at screens. I have screens on my windows to keep insect out. I need a few more. But when I'm at the computer or playing a video game or watching a television show or a movie, all of those are really different from just staring at a screen. Today, for example, I watched this group called CDZA perform as a human jukebox with a speed up and slow down setting as street performers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbdewwtm70w. I shared that with my 15 year old son. It led us through to a few other CDZA videos and then I answered a few e-mails while Simon researched more about a role playing game he's interested in playing. Just now. Just this moment, or that moment past, Linnaea came over and asked me to compare, for cuteness, owls versus cockatiels. Sloths won. But giant earthworms came into the discussion. The computer was a tool in the conversation. Nobody was left lurching about seeking brains. The bickering was part of
the conversation. It wasn't in solitude.
Deb Lewis wrote once, and I didn't keep it and I wish I had 'cause I can't find it to show off to all and sundry, that time is the key. That whenever people come and say something isn't working with unschooling her first thought is that they need to spend more time with their child or with their children. Time. Spend time with your children. Hang out with them while they are doing what they love. Find out why they love it. Know that it has value because these valuable people value it.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Fast forward to 9 days of our kids looking at screens for 7-12 hours apiece, we question it. -=-
If they were reading, would you say "9 days of our kids looking at paper"?
-=-Anyway, I'd like to know what other people's experiences have been with transitioning to the unlimited screen time, especially in regard to pre-teen/teenage boys and gaming. -=-
Our kids didn't transition because we didn't limit.
"Screen time" is a boogeyman.
Do you measure cloth time at your house? Paper time? Human-interaction time?
http://sandradodd.com/screentime
-=-Any input is appreciated as this is new to us, and I am attempting not to be frantic. :)-=-
Don't jump in before you see where you're going. :-)
Don't do things you don't understand.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If they were reading, would you say "9 days of our kids looking at paper"?
-=-Anyway, I'd like to know what other people's experiences have been with transitioning to the unlimited screen time, especially in regard to pre-teen/teenage boys and gaming. -=-
Our kids didn't transition because we didn't limit.
"Screen time" is a boogeyman.
Do you measure cloth time at your house? Paper time? Human-interaction time?
http://sandradodd.com/screentime
-=-Any input is appreciated as this is new to us, and I am attempting not to be frantic. :)-=-
Don't jump in before you see where you're going. :-)
Don't do things you don't understand.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jencookies43
Video games and TV were "MY" hardest points to overcome. My kids have no problem with video games or TV. I sure did. Even though I played with them and had fun, I couldn't let go of that thought in my brain that I was somehow leading them down a bad road. I stopped one day and really took some time to think about what was causing me so much anxiety about TV and video games? I had full access to TV as a child and games were quite new in the 70's and I really wasn't very interested in them later in life, until the Internet became available. What I discovered was my need to control and protect. I did not have the relationship with my parents that I have with my kids. When I saw something on TV that I did not understand or something on the news that scared me, I did not feel comfortable talking to my parents about it and kept it inside and worried away at it and it grew to more than what it was. My parents were violent with me, so I really felt no safety in my little world.
Fast forward to today. My kids do have me to help them feel safe and guide them to comfort and be a comfort to them. I do play games with them or am at least nearby if not in the same room. I really stink at Black Ops, so I tend to be the last person in the house invited to play this game with them. Maybe if they need target practice I'll get invited. My middle son taught himself to read while playing games. I love watching most of the shows my kids watch. Our house favorite is The Regular Show. My kids delight when I tell them it reminds me of my teen years in the 80's with hair nation rock and silly 80's jargon. This often leads to other discussions about my teen years, etc. So grateful for DVR's. My youngest will pause during most shows to start a conversation.
Our life did not end up revolving around TV and video games, which was a fear of mine. These things are part of our life and they revolve around our life. We do many other things as well. We connect, we play at the park, we have snowball fights, we bike ride as fast as we can downhill, we drop cupcakes from 20 feet in the air just to hear the splat, we talk about our view points when others bring up horrible subjects of real life shooters who have played video games (gee, hasn't everyone under the age of 30???), we lay around in bed together talking, laughing, wrestling with our dogs, and just last night stayed up till 4am playing a new video game. I actually passed out long before 4 am, but the kids tucked themselves in bed about that time. We also spend time apart working on our own little projects or two of us might be working on a project together. We have two engineer types in the house that can get completely absorbed in soldering irons and shop tools. I love how life ebbs and flows. Swirls in different directions or just stays on one course for a while. I just love my life and my family. It's a good thing to have fun and make memories and bonds of love and trust.
Fast forward to today. My kids do have me to help them feel safe and guide them to comfort and be a comfort to them. I do play games with them or am at least nearby if not in the same room. I really stink at Black Ops, so I tend to be the last person in the house invited to play this game with them. Maybe if they need target practice I'll get invited. My middle son taught himself to read while playing games. I love watching most of the shows my kids watch. Our house favorite is The Regular Show. My kids delight when I tell them it reminds me of my teen years in the 80's with hair nation rock and silly 80's jargon. This often leads to other discussions about my teen years, etc. So grateful for DVR's. My youngest will pause during most shows to start a conversation.
Our life did not end up revolving around TV and video games, which was a fear of mine. These things are part of our life and they revolve around our life. We do many other things as well. We connect, we play at the park, we have snowball fights, we bike ride as fast as we can downhill, we drop cupcakes from 20 feet in the air just to hear the splat, we talk about our view points when others bring up horrible subjects of real life shooters who have played video games (gee, hasn't everyone under the age of 30???), we lay around in bed together talking, laughing, wrestling with our dogs, and just last night stayed up till 4am playing a new video game. I actually passed out long before 4 am, but the kids tucked themselves in bed about that time. We also spend time apart working on our own little projects or two of us might be working on a project together. We have two engineer types in the house that can get completely absorbed in soldering irons and shop tools. I love how life ebbs and flows. Swirls in different directions or just stays on one course for a while. I just love my life and my family. It's a good thing to have fun and make memories and bonds of love and trust.
jencookies43
>"The little ones are weepy and bickering by the end of the day; and the big kids are zombies.We have seen glimpses of positive results with our older boys as we've spent time with them while gaming. However, not sure it outweighs the "Night of the Living Dead" experience that goes with it. lol "
Try sitting with the little ones and reminding them to treat each other kindly. With a sweet voice with loving arms and a smile. Your reaction to how they behave could make all the difference.
The older boys can stay up late and sleep in late. They will regulate themselves on this. My internal regulator is to wake up at dawn and fall asleep at sundown. I will take a nap if I need to during the day if I stayed up later than I normally do the night before. Sometimes the kids will snuggle up next to me and nap too. Even the older ones.
Don't forget that you can invite them to other opportunities as well. There have been times when my kids were totally into a game and dropped it like a hot potato when I ask if anyone wants to play frisbee golf or go out to lunch or the dollar theater. There have been times when they declined the invitation and were content to play video games and hubby and I will have a date night while they are doing their thing. Or we all simply meld together and all play games or just hang out in the same room.
~Jen
Karen
> Don't jump in before you see where you're going. :-)I responded to a Facebook friend's question about what I wished I knew before I began unschooling with this answer:
> Don't do things you don't understand.
>
> Sandra
"I can be impulsive at times.
My dad came to visit me several years ago. He's a handy man. He doesn't like to sit and talk. He enjoys finding things that aren't working, and fixing them. The faucet in our kitchen was leaking. It was slowly ruining our wooden counter tops. He wanted to fix it. He wanted me to help, so that I might be able to do the same thing one day when he wasn't there. I like that kind of thing, so I happily agreed. He found our tool box, handed me a couple tools, asked me to wait a moment, and told me he would be right back. While he was in the other room momentarily, I (over-enthusiastically) began to take the faucet apart. He returned just as I was disassembling all the pieces, paused in the doorway, and said, "Oh, no! What are you doing? Do you know how they all go back together?" I said, "No." He signed and said, "You don't just take things apart without paying attention to all the pieces and how they fit together. Slow down. Pay attention to what you are doing. Otherwise, you just end up with a big mess that may or may not be workable in the end."
At the time, my feelings were hurt. It had been something I had heard from my dad many times in the past. Unfortunately, it wasn't until I did the same thing with Unschooling, that I understood his point. I can't be a plumber without understanding the way all the plumbing components come together to work as they do. I can't be an Unschooler without an understanding of how natural learning occurs and how meaningful relationships function best. Neither can happen simply because I wish for it, or claim it to be so. Both can happen when I slow down, pay attention to what I'm doing, and notice how the parts come together to make a well-functioning whole.
I can be long-winded at times...but that's another story..."
It seemed appropriate here. The best thing I did after I realized I took apart all the of the pieces before I knew what I was hoping to accomplish (both with my dad and with unschooling) was to slow down, become a bit more humble, pay attention to those who know more than me, listen, try a bit, watch, and learn. And, with unschooling, spending as much time with my son as possible, doing the things he loves was, and is, key to understanding how he learns and what is valuable to him. It also has the added benefit of being a lot of fun most of the time :-)
Tiffani
We have never had limits on anything like tv, video games or computers. My husbands loves video games so my kids have always had them available. I am currently struggling with types of games. We have always had fighting games, war games and such along with cutesy light hearted games. I get really uncomfortable when the game has a lot of sexual stuff in it or a lot of cussing. My teen sons were not into video games but my 11 year old son is really into them. He has been asking for games where the label says sexual content. I do not think that is his reason for wanting them but it is in there. He current plays Teen and Mature content games. I know there are games where the player can kill prostitutes and cops and such and I really do not like that. Again I do not know that my son would even be interested in that part of the game. I do want to encourage that kind of disregard for human life and I know it is a game. I also know a lot of young
men who have played this type of game and grew up to be loving husbands and fathers and to my knowledge have not actually killed anyone. Any thougths?
Tiffani
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men who have played this type of game and grew up to be loving husbands and fathers and to my knowledge have not actually killed anyone. Any thougths?
Tiffani
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Regan
It might be helpful to focus on being kind to your children, rather than on letting go of previous limits. Your focus on screen time (either feast or famine), is getting in the way of your childrens' peace and happiness.
If you focus more on helping your children have wonderful days, the ends of those days are less likely to be full of "weepy", "bickering" and "zombies".
Your previous limit on video games and tv wasn't helpful. But neither is a reactive response on your part, of simply providing them with the converse. When there has been any kind of unwanted lack, lots of care and support and time are usually needed to happily make the transition to abundance.
A fundamental aspect of unschooling, is the importance of supporting your children in their explorations of the world. It is more fundamental than whether or not you limit their access to tv.
Help your children enjoy more access to things that were previously limited. It will take time for it to feel peaceful to them and will be different for each child. The more you are engaged with your children through this process, the more smooth will be the transition. Tuning in to where they're at with it all, will help you to support them as they transition from living an arbitrarily limited life to one in which their desires are important.
Deb.
If you focus more on helping your children have wonderful days, the ends of those days are less likely to be full of "weepy", "bickering" and "zombies".
Your previous limit on video games and tv wasn't helpful. But neither is a reactive response on your part, of simply providing them with the converse. When there has been any kind of unwanted lack, lots of care and support and time are usually needed to happily make the transition to abundance.
A fundamental aspect of unschooling, is the importance of supporting your children in their explorations of the world. It is more fundamental than whether or not you limit their access to tv.
Help your children enjoy more access to things that were previously limited. It will take time for it to feel peaceful to them and will be different for each child. The more you are engaged with your children through this process, the more smooth will be the transition. Tuning in to where they're at with it all, will help you to support them as they transition from living an arbitrarily limited life to one in which their desires are important.
Deb.
On 29/12/2012, at 1:37 PM, Howdy wrote:
>
> Throughout the past 2 years we have evolved from 5 kids (8, 9, 11, 13, and 15) in private school to homeschooling, and finally this winter to unschooling. The one issue that my husband and i just can't get past is the unlimited video game/tv time issue. We talk about it, I feel like i've read every link available on the subject, and then we say, "Ok, let's do it"....Fast forward to 9 days of our kids looking at screens for 7-12 hours apiece, we question it. The little ones are weepy and bickering by the end of the day; and the big kids are zombies.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
>Fast forward to 9 days of our kids looking at screens for 7-12 hours apieceNine days? You haven't actually tried anything, yet. You're giving the kids a holiday from limits so naturally they're behaving like sailors on shore leave - grabbing every moment of liberty, no matter the cost, because any day now the limits will come crashing back down.
It would have been better to go slowly, saying yes more over time - not much help to you, now, but someone else will hopefully find that useful information: Go Slowly! Don't drop all the rules at once! Sometimes kids will ask "what's going on?" when they realize you're saying yes a lot more, but if they don't ask, don't make some kind of announcement like "no more rules!"
But since you're already there...
>>The little ones are weepy and bickering by the end of the dayAre you bringing snacks and drinks? That can help. Are there enough games to go around? What are they bickering about?
2 player games? It can take a certain amount of bickering for some kids to figure out how to play 2-player games together, and every player isn't suited to 2-player games - or at least not with just anyone. My daughter gets very crabby playing 2-player games unless the other person has the same goals for the game. She does well with group projects on Minecraft, but she's choosey about them - she makes sure she and the other builders have the same goals to start with. Lately she's been dabbling in fan-fiction and trying to decide if she wants to write a story With someone else - and her experience with games is helping her decide what kind of person would make a good writing partner for her.
So bickering isn't necessarily a bad thing - it's part of how they're learning about complex social skills like teamwork and compromise. Do make sure there are enough games to go around so no-one is stuck with the option of either playing a 2-player game or not playing at all, and make sure other needs are being met.
If you think some of the frustration is coming from too much time indoors, it can help to plan something fun to start first thing in the morning so you can sweep up the whole crew to go do something and work out some "ants in the pants" before they all settle down to some serious gaming.
>>the big kids are zombies.You mean they're getting so involved in doing something they enjoy they're forgetting to eat, sleep, and bathe? That would describe many of the artisans I know, including my partner ;) Passionate people can sometimes get alllllll wrapped up in a project. It helps to bring food and gently take care of details for them.
> Anyway, I'd like to know what other people's experiences have been with transitioning to the unlimited screen time, especially in regard to pre-teen/teenage boys and gaming. How long did it take for them to level out? etc.**************
My stepson left school and a home with severe restrictions on computer use when he was 13 - a big instant change, since we weren't going to impose the restrictions he had been used to - and for close to two years spent the majority of his waking hours playing Runescape, mostly at night. Now he's 19, just got back from working on an organic farm all autumn, and is currently out digging a foundation for an improvement on his little cabin in the woods. He's rarely even in front of a computer.
My daughter is 11 and unschooled from the start and if her life were measured in "screen time" there would be a lot of it. A great deal of what she does involves a computer: writing, reading online, drawing, animating, games, socializing, researching. I don't expect that to "level out" in the sense of her giving up the computer for other things.
In fact "leveling out" is kind of insulting. It implies that passion is undesirable, a fault. When will my daughter's writing "level out"? My partner's artistry? I wouldn't want either of them to be anything other than who they are, for all they're sometimes inconvenient people who don't wash dishes or fold laundry.
---Meredith
Robert and Colleen
****I posted the Pam Sorooshian article on FB about marginal utility and tv
viewing, and 20+ people poked holes through her argument. They were all well
meaning, and i had asked for their input....so i guess, what did i expect?
However, i'm not sure where to go with it.****
In Pam's article, she's talking about things through an "economist's eyes"
(as she says) - and as I've passed the link to the article on to various
parents and grandparents (unschoolers and non-unschoolers both) I've found
that the ones who are most open to the ideas she presents are those who also
look at the world through a similar lens, or who are willing while they're
reading and thinking to set aside their normal world-view and look at things
in a new way.
It's sort of like reading Freakonomics (or watching the documentary) - the
ideas put forth by the economist-authors resonate the most those whose eyes
are open to seeing the world that same way.
Somewhere on the Freakonomics blog, the authors shred to pieces the idea of
eating local. I eat many local foods, as do my husband and son. We know
our meat farmers personally and love farmers' markets and belong to a CSA.
Their blog post really bothered me - and then as I thought about why, I
realized it was because I don't eat local for the reasons the authors were
focused on when they wrote. They were arguing against things that weren't
even on my radar. The questions they were asking about local food (did it
really cost less, is it really better for the environment, is it a practical
way to feed the world, etc. as I recall) weren't my questions. I eat local
because local food tastes good - because I like knowing who grows my food -
because of a lot of reasons. Their economics-perspective, in that case,
wasn't helpful to me - so I set it aside and went on happily eating my food
because I *wanted* to and not because it was going to please or not-please
economists who weren't eating with me anyway :-)
On the other hand, when I read Pam's article for the first time years ago -
it immediately clicked for me. It explained in a totally different language
(economics) so many things about why restrictions don't work - and was so
clear about what happens when parents try to restrict TV or food or
videogames or anything else. Do I personally boil the whole world down to
the same ideas and use the same terms economists do? Nope. But can I
appreciate what Pam is saying, understand it, and send it off as the best
explanation I have yet found for anyone who asks me why we don't try to
control my 9 year old's eating, watching, playing, etc.? Yep :-)
If I posted the article on my own Facebook wall, I'm certain I have
relatives and friends who have closed minds and closed ears on the topic of
restrictions, or different not-up-for-discussion opinions on the subject,
who would read it and feel about it the same way I felt about the local food
blog entry - they'd be disagreeing and jumping up and down and telling me
how wrong it all is. But that doesn't mean it really is wrong - it means
they can't (or won't) see where it's right - or that it simply doesn't speak
to their own particular rationale behind restrictions, and so it doesn't
click with them (there are articles out in the world that speak against
restrictions from different perspectives - psychology, people's unhealthy
desire for control over others, etc. - the economist's is but one view, but
it's such a clear and direct view in this case, it seems just about perfect
to me :-)).
If the article makes sense to you, and if reading it inspires you to stop
and pause and think every time you debate trying to restrict your kids as
they game or eat or play, then that's great! Guaranteeing it will make
sense to others is beyond what you can do. I wouldn't stop eating CSA
carrots because grocery store carrots are cheaper - and you're not going to
get people to agree with Pam simply because you know she's right :-)
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
viewing, and 20+ people poked holes through her argument. They were all well
meaning, and i had asked for their input....so i guess, what did i expect?
However, i'm not sure where to go with it.****
In Pam's article, she's talking about things through an "economist's eyes"
(as she says) - and as I've passed the link to the article on to various
parents and grandparents (unschoolers and non-unschoolers both) I've found
that the ones who are most open to the ideas she presents are those who also
look at the world through a similar lens, or who are willing while they're
reading and thinking to set aside their normal world-view and look at things
in a new way.
It's sort of like reading Freakonomics (or watching the documentary) - the
ideas put forth by the economist-authors resonate the most those whose eyes
are open to seeing the world that same way.
Somewhere on the Freakonomics blog, the authors shred to pieces the idea of
eating local. I eat many local foods, as do my husband and son. We know
our meat farmers personally and love farmers' markets and belong to a CSA.
Their blog post really bothered me - and then as I thought about why, I
realized it was because I don't eat local for the reasons the authors were
focused on when they wrote. They were arguing against things that weren't
even on my radar. The questions they were asking about local food (did it
really cost less, is it really better for the environment, is it a practical
way to feed the world, etc. as I recall) weren't my questions. I eat local
because local food tastes good - because I like knowing who grows my food -
because of a lot of reasons. Their economics-perspective, in that case,
wasn't helpful to me - so I set it aside and went on happily eating my food
because I *wanted* to and not because it was going to please or not-please
economists who weren't eating with me anyway :-)
On the other hand, when I read Pam's article for the first time years ago -
it immediately clicked for me. It explained in a totally different language
(economics) so many things about why restrictions don't work - and was so
clear about what happens when parents try to restrict TV or food or
videogames or anything else. Do I personally boil the whole world down to
the same ideas and use the same terms economists do? Nope. But can I
appreciate what Pam is saying, understand it, and send it off as the best
explanation I have yet found for anyone who asks me why we don't try to
control my 9 year old's eating, watching, playing, etc.? Yep :-)
If I posted the article on my own Facebook wall, I'm certain I have
relatives and friends who have closed minds and closed ears on the topic of
restrictions, or different not-up-for-discussion opinions on the subject,
who would read it and feel about it the same way I felt about the local food
blog entry - they'd be disagreeing and jumping up and down and telling me
how wrong it all is. But that doesn't mean it really is wrong - it means
they can't (or won't) see where it's right - or that it simply doesn't speak
to their own particular rationale behind restrictions, and so it doesn't
click with them (there are articles out in the world that speak against
restrictions from different perspectives - psychology, people's unhealthy
desire for control over others, etc. - the economist's is but one view, but
it's such a clear and direct view in this case, it seems just about perfect
to me :-)).
If the article makes sense to you, and if reading it inspires you to stop
and pause and think every time you debate trying to restrict your kids as
they game or eat or play, then that's great! Guaranteeing it will make
sense to others is beyond what you can do. I wouldn't stop eating CSA
carrots because grocery store carrots are cheaper - and you're not going to
get people to agree with Pam simply because you know she's right :-)
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brice Johnson
As I wrote this, I did not take into account none of you personally know me
and how I interact with my children. I am far from perfect, but I don't
think anyone that knows me would accuse me of being disdainful, or calling
my children demeaning names. On the contrary, I'm more commonly accused of
being "too grace filled" and a "free spirit". For that reason, I will be
much more cautious in my writing.
I did not ask these questions in a spirit of rudeness or in wanting to
challenge what Pam wrote, as it actually resonated very clearly with me. I
do not know one other unschooling family, so what I am really looking for is
support and encouragement that it has worked for other people. I put in the
FB reference to give a balanced picture of how I'm trying to come to terms
with this issue, not as a challenge to what she wrote. Perhaps I came
across as too blunt in my writing, as it seems that what my heart is, did
not come through in my request. I was trying to deal with something that is
very serious to me, in a light hearted manner..i realize now that it was a
wrong method given that we're not in relationship.
Please accept my apologies for any offense, as it was not my intent at all.
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of sandralynndodd
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 12:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Video game/TV viewing
-=-We have seen glimpses of positive results with our older boys as we've
spent time with them while gaming. However, not sure it outweighs the "Night
of the Living Dead" experience that goes with it. lol -=-
The "lol" is the worst thing in your post. If you don't want to be
compassionate and understanding of your children's interests, unschooling
won't work out for you. If you're disdainful and call them zombies, they are
unlikely to share their joys and lives with you openly.
-=-I posted the Pam Sorooshian article on FB about marginal utility and tv
viewing, and 20+ people poked holes through her argument. They were all well
meaning, and i had asked for their input....so i guess, what did i expect?
However, i'm not sure where to go with it.-=-
"Poked holes" or took shots?
Do you know those twenty people personally? How happy are their families?
Because I'm sitting one table over from where Pam Sorooshian is sitting
talking to some other unschooling moms. Two of her young-adult daughters are
sitting with her. Across the room, her other daughter is involve din a board
game with seven other people--a dad, two of my kids, a young boy...
-=i'm not sure where to go with it.-=-
If you wanted someone to suggest that Pam (who teaches economics at a
college and has for many years) doesn't understand the principles of
economics, then you found what you wanted!
If you would prefer to believe that Pam would have bullshitted those ideas
rather than drawing on her personal experience with unschooling her children
who get along remarkably well with each other and with their parents, then
you went to the right place.
Those twenty+ families... Any unschoolers? Any economists? Any of them
really trying to help you have a more loving relationship with your
children?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and how I interact with my children. I am far from perfect, but I don't
think anyone that knows me would accuse me of being disdainful, or calling
my children demeaning names. On the contrary, I'm more commonly accused of
being "too grace filled" and a "free spirit". For that reason, I will be
much more cautious in my writing.
I did not ask these questions in a spirit of rudeness or in wanting to
challenge what Pam wrote, as it actually resonated very clearly with me. I
do not know one other unschooling family, so what I am really looking for is
support and encouragement that it has worked for other people. I put in the
FB reference to give a balanced picture of how I'm trying to come to terms
with this issue, not as a challenge to what she wrote. Perhaps I came
across as too blunt in my writing, as it seems that what my heart is, did
not come through in my request. I was trying to deal with something that is
very serious to me, in a light hearted manner..i realize now that it was a
wrong method given that we're not in relationship.
Please accept my apologies for any offense, as it was not my intent at all.
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of sandralynndodd
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 12:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Video game/TV viewing
-=-We have seen glimpses of positive results with our older boys as we've
spent time with them while gaming. However, not sure it outweighs the "Night
of the Living Dead" experience that goes with it. lol -=-
The "lol" is the worst thing in your post. If you don't want to be
compassionate and understanding of your children's interests, unschooling
won't work out for you. If you're disdainful and call them zombies, they are
unlikely to share their joys and lives with you openly.
-=-I posted the Pam Sorooshian article on FB about marginal utility and tv
viewing, and 20+ people poked holes through her argument. They were all well
meaning, and i had asked for their input....so i guess, what did i expect?
However, i'm not sure where to go with it.-=-
"Poked holes" or took shots?
Do you know those twenty people personally? How happy are their families?
Because I'm sitting one table over from where Pam Sorooshian is sitting
talking to some other unschooling moms. Two of her young-adult daughters are
sitting with her. Across the room, her other daughter is involve din a board
game with seven other people--a dad, two of my kids, a young boy...
-=i'm not sure where to go with it.-=-
If you wanted someone to suggest that Pam (who teaches economics at a
college and has for many years) doesn't understand the principles of
economics, then you found what you wanted!
If you would prefer to believe that Pam would have bullshitted those ideas
rather than drawing on her personal experience with unschooling her children
who get along remarkably well with each other and with their parents, then
you went to the right place.
Those twenty+ families... Any unschoolers? Any economists? Any of them
really trying to help you have a more loving relationship with your
children?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Noe
Oh my gosh, I have so much to say about this subject, but no hard and fast
answers. Probably because there aren't any. I have experience with
unlimited gaming, decades of it. My two oldest would rather game than eat
or sleep, though eventually those needs do get met! My oldest was obsessed
with Pokemon on the game boy when he was 7. It escalated and intensified
from then on, and he was unschooled from then on too.
We had to concern ourselves with the recommended age groups several times
but he showed us he could master them and he is far more interested in
puzzle style games and depth of plot than just shoot em ups. He did play
the shooter games, but he loved hacking them. It was fascinating to see
what he did. He wold make the guns shoot other guns out instead of
bullets, etc. he has always wanted to go into gaming as a profession and
probably will. He loves creative games like minecraft and unusual games
like portal. He knows the best game creators and respects them. He is very
dismissive when people claim that violent killers "were known to play video
games, oh my!"
My second teen has followed in his footsteps but his interests are slightly
different. He is an athlete who practices 4 hours a day 5 days a week. He
is homeschooled but he uses an online college prep school so he is NCAA
eligible for his sport. He and his teammates and friends love to play the
group shooting games all together. They can have fun and get together at
all hours and their parents don't have to drive them all over. He also
likes to shoot real guns at ranges, maybe 3-4 x a year, we do not own
guns.
I think he plays too much. But he still does it. He is expected to do
well in school and he is. I wish he'd go outside more. I have not found a
great solution. But he does do school and plenty !!! Of sport.
Next son has some developmental delays and is 9 but maturity of a 7. He
has also loved gaming forever too. Unschooled too. Plays a lot of the
time. He is not allowed any of the shooting games except minecraft which
isn't really. He was thrown off Toontown years ago for hacking and then
also from club penguin for the same thing. I admit to being a little proud
( he called it "finding glitches" where he could float in the air and have
unlimited money etc) but of course not for breaking the rules /things he
agreed to. Since we moved, he is back on Toontown ( new ip) and very
involved in it. My worst thing about this is that when they go to battle
the bosses there are other people on the team depending on you. And the
attack lasts a loooong time. Well, what if your mom as to take you some
where? This is not good because I do not like making him unhappy and
making him let down other kids.
Part of me is envious of those no screen families. So many other
activities. My kids tend to find other things "boring." I worry that
gaming is to life like porn compared to real life sex. It may affect
neurotransmitters like some kind of opiate.
And the other part of me says we are going down this tech path as humans
and we go where it leads and try to bring our humanity, goodness, and
morality to the process. They talk tech and are very interested in where
things are going.
I have never bought them grand theft auto but the oldest has still "gotten
it" somehow and showed it to me and showed me the fun parts of it and he is
not interested in the hooker parts and prefers to play a cop rather than a
bad guy. He showed me how creatively it was made, etc. his dream is to
make hockey games.
Nancy
Excuse all the errors, babe sleeping in my arms
answers. Probably because there aren't any. I have experience with
unlimited gaming, decades of it. My two oldest would rather game than eat
or sleep, though eventually those needs do get met! My oldest was obsessed
with Pokemon on the game boy when he was 7. It escalated and intensified
from then on, and he was unschooled from then on too.
We had to concern ourselves with the recommended age groups several times
but he showed us he could master them and he is far more interested in
puzzle style games and depth of plot than just shoot em ups. He did play
the shooter games, but he loved hacking them. It was fascinating to see
what he did. He wold make the guns shoot other guns out instead of
bullets, etc. he has always wanted to go into gaming as a profession and
probably will. He loves creative games like minecraft and unusual games
like portal. He knows the best game creators and respects them. He is very
dismissive when people claim that violent killers "were known to play video
games, oh my!"
My second teen has followed in his footsteps but his interests are slightly
different. He is an athlete who practices 4 hours a day 5 days a week. He
is homeschooled but he uses an online college prep school so he is NCAA
eligible for his sport. He and his teammates and friends love to play the
group shooting games all together. They can have fun and get together at
all hours and their parents don't have to drive them all over. He also
likes to shoot real guns at ranges, maybe 3-4 x a year, we do not own
guns.
I think he plays too much. But he still does it. He is expected to do
well in school and he is. I wish he'd go outside more. I have not found a
great solution. But he does do school and plenty !!! Of sport.
Next son has some developmental delays and is 9 but maturity of a 7. He
has also loved gaming forever too. Unschooled too. Plays a lot of the
time. He is not allowed any of the shooting games except minecraft which
isn't really. He was thrown off Toontown years ago for hacking and then
also from club penguin for the same thing. I admit to being a little proud
( he called it "finding glitches" where he could float in the air and have
unlimited money etc) but of course not for breaking the rules /things he
agreed to. Since we moved, he is back on Toontown ( new ip) and very
involved in it. My worst thing about this is that when they go to battle
the bosses there are other people on the team depending on you. And the
attack lasts a loooong time. Well, what if your mom as to take you some
where? This is not good because I do not like making him unhappy and
making him let down other kids.
Part of me is envious of those no screen families. So many other
activities. My kids tend to find other things "boring." I worry that
gaming is to life like porn compared to real life sex. It may affect
neurotransmitters like some kind of opiate.
And the other part of me says we are going down this tech path as humans
and we go where it leads and try to bring our humanity, goodness, and
morality to the process. They talk tech and are very interested in where
things are going.
I have never bought them grand theft auto but the oldest has still "gotten
it" somehow and showed it to me and showed me the fun parts of it and he is
not interested in the hooker parts and prefers to play a cop rather than a
bad guy. He showed me how creatively it was made, etc. his dream is to
make hockey games.
Nancy
Excuse all the errors, babe sleeping in my arms
On Saturday, December 29, 2012, Tiffani wrote:
> **
>
>
> We have never had limits on anything like tv, video games or computers.
> My husbands loves video games so my kids have always had them available.
> I am currently struggling with types of games. We have always had
> fighting games, war games and such along with cutesy light hearted games. I
> get really uncomfortable when the game has a lot of sexual stuff in it or a
> lot of cussing. My teen sons were not into video games but my 11 year old
> son is really into them. He has been asking for games where the label says
> sexual content. I do not think that is his reason for wanting them but it
> is in there. He current plays Teen and Mature content games. I know there
> are games where the player can kill prostitutes and cops and such and I
> really do not like that. Again I do not know that my son would even be
> interested in that part of the game. I do want to encourage that kind
> of disregard for human life and I know it is a game. I also know a lot of
> young
> men who have played this type of game and grew up to be loving husbands
> and fathers and to my knowledge have not actually killed anyone. Any
> thougths?
> Tiffani
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I can't be an Unschooler without an understanding of how natural learning occurs and how meaningful relationships function best. Neither can happen simply because I wish for it, or claim it to be so. Both can happen when I slow down, pay attention to what I'm doing, and notice how the parts come together to make a well-functioning whole.-=-
Nice.
We had a long, busy day today at the Always Learning Live Symposium here in Albuquerque.
The schedule today was this:
Saturday, December 29
9:30 Moderators of the Always Learning discussion (Sandra, Joyce, Pam, Jill, and any others who might be there): "Why don't you just answer the question I asked!?"
10:45 Renee Cabatic, Stories and Moments
There are thousands of small moments of connection that make for good relationships, and I'll share stories of our life that helped us understand unschooling principles.
12:00-2:00 lunch
2:00 Carl Fetteroll (and maybe Joyce) What's wrong with school math?
Carl will share tales of college students who didn't learn math in school, his experiences teaching them math and the kind of thinking jobs need versus the kind schools are providing. I'll be adding in Kathryn's experience playing video games and how that prepared her better not only for college math but real world math than what the schools are doing.
3:15 Pam Sorooshian: "Learning is Learning: Unschooling Everything"
What was the basis for our decision to unschool? What made us think it was a good idea? What were we hoping to get out of it? How did we first apply our ideas about how children learn to conventional school subjects and then begin to go beyond that to apply them to all kinds of learning? And, along the way, what did we learn about unschooling?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nice.
We had a long, busy day today at the Always Learning Live Symposium here in Albuquerque.
The schedule today was this:
Saturday, December 29
9:30 Moderators of the Always Learning discussion (Sandra, Joyce, Pam, Jill, and any others who might be there): "Why don't you just answer the question I asked!?"
10:45 Renee Cabatic, Stories and Moments
There are thousands of small moments of connection that make for good relationships, and I'll share stories of our life that helped us understand unschooling principles.
12:00-2:00 lunch
2:00 Carl Fetteroll (and maybe Joyce) What's wrong with school math?
Carl will share tales of college students who didn't learn math in school, his experiences teaching them math and the kind of thinking jobs need versus the kind schools are providing. I'll be adding in Kathryn's experience playing video games and how that prepared her better not only for college math but real world math than what the schools are doing.
3:15 Pam Sorooshian: "Learning is Learning: Unschooling Everything"
What was the basis for our decision to unschool? What made us think it was a good idea? What were we hoping to get out of it? How did we first apply our ideas about how children learn to conventional school subjects and then begin to go beyond that to apply them to all kinds of learning? And, along the way, what did we learn about unschooling?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My middle son taught himself to read while playing games.-=-
It's a large step closer to understanding unschooling if you say that he learned to read, rather than "taught himself."
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
-=-. I love how life ebbs and flows. Swirls in different directions or just stays on one course for a while. I just love my life and my family. It's a good thing to have fun and make memories and bonds of love and trust. -=-
That's beautiful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's a large step closer to understanding unschooling if you say that he learned to read, rather than "taught himself."
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
-=-. I love how life ebbs and flows. Swirls in different directions or just stays on one course for a while. I just love my life and my family. It's a good thing to have fun and make memories and bonds of love and trust. -=-
That's beautiful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I did not ask these questions in a spirit of rudeness or in wanting to
challenge what Pam wrote, as it actually resonated very clearly with me. I
do not know one other unschooling family, so what I am really looking for is
support and encouragement that it has worked for other people. I put in the
FB reference to give a balanced picture of how I'm trying to come to terms
with this issue, not as a challenge to what she wrote.-=-
You didn't answer my questions about whether your 20+ people were unschoolers, or were helping you be more peaceful or a better parent.
I'm assuming, then, that they were not.
-=-For that reason, I will be much more cautious in my writing. -=-
Honestly, I'm weary of people not reading the guidelines for posting here before they post.
Be cautious about your writing ALL the time.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
challenge what Pam wrote, as it actually resonated very clearly with me. I
do not know one other unschooling family, so what I am really looking for is
support and encouragement that it has worked for other people. I put in the
FB reference to give a balanced picture of how I'm trying to come to terms
with this issue, not as a challenge to what she wrote.-=-
You didn't answer my questions about whether your 20+ people were unschoolers, or were helping you be more peaceful or a better parent.
I'm assuming, then, that they were not.
-=-For that reason, I will be much more cautious in my writing. -=-
Honestly, I'm weary of people not reading the guidelines for posting here before they post.
Be cautious about your writing ALL the time.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Oh my gosh, I have so much to say about this subject, but no hard and fast answers. -=-
Four of the six active moderators of Always Learning are here in Albuquerque with me this weekend. A couple of us discussed this post a bit, and considered rejecting it.
"Hard and fast answers" is not the point of this discussion. What IS the point is discussing ideas in the light of what will help radical unschooling thrive.
Millions of people could have lots to say about any of these subjects, but the successful experiences of longtime radical unschoolers are valued more highly than more mainstream, fearful ideas.
-=-We had to concern ourselves with the recommended age groups several times but ...-=-
I'm not sure what that would mean.
I do know that "had to" is a fallacy within the context of making mindful choices.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
-=-I think he plays too much. But he still does it. He is expected to do
well in school and he is. I wish he'd go outside more. I have not found a
great solution.-=-
By "solution," you mean a way to get your way, I suspect, rather than a way to accept his choices.
If he's an athlete who practices four hours a day, perhaps "outside" isn't a problem. You didn't name the sport.
-=-Next son has some developmental delays and is 9 but maturity of a 7. He
has also loved gaming forever too. Unschooled too. -=-
Measuring maturity by age isn't direct seeing and knowing of a child. "Maturity" is not so easily or clearly measurable, and even if it were, each child's path and progress is unique.
-=- He is not allowed any of the shooting games except minecraft which isn't really. ...-=-
"He is not allowed" is passive. Do you mean "I do not allow him to play any of the shooting games"?
-=-My worst thing about this is that when they go to battle
the bosses there are other people on the team depending on you. And the
attack lasts a loooong time. Well, what if your mom as to take you some
where? This is not good because I do not like making him unhappy and
making him let down other kids.-=-
You could plan ahead better, but DOES his mom "have to" take him somewhere?
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
-=-Part of me is envious of those no screen families. So many other
activities. My kids tend to find other things "boring." I worry that
gaming is to life like porn compared to real life sex. It may affect
neurotransmitters like some kind of opiate.-=-
As long as part of you is uncommitted to unschooling, unschooling will only partly thrive.
For you to compare gaming to porn, and then to suggest to a couple of thousand people who have come here for clear discussion of the principles of radical unschooling that gaming or porn "may affect neurotransmitters like some kind of opiate" seems purposely inflammatory. It shows a lack of regard for your sons, and a lack of analysis of learning and of real life.
When a person is engaged in thought, solving a puzzle, exploring an environment, seeing new things, trying new strategies, that is real. Learning can happen while one is walking in the woods, watching a movie, riding a horse, playing a video game, reading a book, playing a board game, cooking or hanging out telling jokes. None of those is more like porn than another, and a mother who's looking at her kids playing games and thinking of porn could use a more positive viewpoint.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
-=I have never bought them grand theft auto but the oldest has still "gotten
it" somehow -=-
Somehow?
I hope he got it fairly and legally.
When parents say "no" about something like that, sometimes kids work around the parents.
If parents have rules and restrictions, it can be the cause of dishonesty and sneakiness.
If parents are disapproving, kids won't communicate in a straightforward fashion.
-=I have never bought them grand theft auto but the oldest has still "gotten
it" somehow and showed it to me and showed me the fun parts of it and he is
not interested in the hooker parts and prefers to play a cop rather than a
bad guy. He showed me how creatively it was made, etc. his dream is to
make hockey games.-=-
When a game has a morality angle, it's not more moral to play the good guy than the bad guy. He can't really know the game unless he plays through it different ways. When Marty (at 14) watched Othello, he was pretty taken by the antagonist's tricky set-up. "Iago is a GENIUS!" he said. I didn't worry that he was going to grow up to break other couples up and drive people to their deaths.
When he played through Knights of the Old Republic and chose all the clearly less positive options to see what the dark side story line was like, I wasn't worried for his soul. He was still at home, sitting safely, not hurting himself or anyone else.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Four of the six active moderators of Always Learning are here in Albuquerque with me this weekend. A couple of us discussed this post a bit, and considered rejecting it.
"Hard and fast answers" is not the point of this discussion. What IS the point is discussing ideas in the light of what will help radical unschooling thrive.
Millions of people could have lots to say about any of these subjects, but the successful experiences of longtime radical unschoolers are valued more highly than more mainstream, fearful ideas.
-=-We had to concern ourselves with the recommended age groups several times but ...-=-
I'm not sure what that would mean.
I do know that "had to" is a fallacy within the context of making mindful choices.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
-=-I think he plays too much. But he still does it. He is expected to do
well in school and he is. I wish he'd go outside more. I have not found a
great solution.-=-
By "solution," you mean a way to get your way, I suspect, rather than a way to accept his choices.
If he's an athlete who practices four hours a day, perhaps "outside" isn't a problem. You didn't name the sport.
-=-Next son has some developmental delays and is 9 but maturity of a 7. He
has also loved gaming forever too. Unschooled too. -=-
Measuring maturity by age isn't direct seeing and knowing of a child. "Maturity" is not so easily or clearly measurable, and even if it were, each child's path and progress is unique.
-=- He is not allowed any of the shooting games except minecraft which isn't really. ...-=-
"He is not allowed" is passive. Do you mean "I do not allow him to play any of the shooting games"?
-=-My worst thing about this is that when they go to battle
the bosses there are other people on the team depending on you. And the
attack lasts a loooong time. Well, what if your mom as to take you some
where? This is not good because I do not like making him unhappy and
making him let down other kids.-=-
You could plan ahead better, but DOES his mom "have to" take him somewhere?
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
-=-Part of me is envious of those no screen families. So many other
activities. My kids tend to find other things "boring." I worry that
gaming is to life like porn compared to real life sex. It may affect
neurotransmitters like some kind of opiate.-=-
As long as part of you is uncommitted to unschooling, unschooling will only partly thrive.
For you to compare gaming to porn, and then to suggest to a couple of thousand people who have come here for clear discussion of the principles of radical unschooling that gaming or porn "may affect neurotransmitters like some kind of opiate" seems purposely inflammatory. It shows a lack of regard for your sons, and a lack of analysis of learning and of real life.
When a person is engaged in thought, solving a puzzle, exploring an environment, seeing new things, trying new strategies, that is real. Learning can happen while one is walking in the woods, watching a movie, riding a horse, playing a video game, reading a book, playing a board game, cooking or hanging out telling jokes. None of those is more like porn than another, and a mother who's looking at her kids playing games and thinking of porn could use a more positive viewpoint.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
-=I have never bought them grand theft auto but the oldest has still "gotten
it" somehow -=-
Somehow?
I hope he got it fairly and legally.
When parents say "no" about something like that, sometimes kids work around the parents.
If parents have rules and restrictions, it can be the cause of dishonesty and sneakiness.
If parents are disapproving, kids won't communicate in a straightforward fashion.
-=I have never bought them grand theft auto but the oldest has still "gotten
it" somehow and showed it to me and showed me the fun parts of it and he is
not interested in the hooker parts and prefers to play a cop rather than a
bad guy. He showed me how creatively it was made, etc. his dream is to
make hockey games.-=-
When a game has a morality angle, it's not more moral to play the good guy than the bad guy. He can't really know the game unless he plays through it different ways. When Marty (at 14) watched Othello, he was pretty taken by the antagonist's tricky set-up. "Iago is a GENIUS!" he said. I didn't worry that he was going to grow up to break other couples up and drive people to their deaths.
When he played through Knights of the Old Republic and chose all the clearly less positive options to see what the dark side story line was like, I wasn't worried for his soul. He was still at home, sitting safely, not hurting himself or anyone else.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Are you taking about games like Grand Theft Auto??
MY son used to love them. He played them when last year and this year I think. He is 10.
According to a friend who's husband is a NY Cop it is one of the most played games by cops!
They , too, want to play the bad guy sometimes. It is fun. I saw my son playing and running over people for fun.
IN real life my so does not even hurt his sister when she is being pushy and even hurting him. He is really sweet to her.
I know other children , other than my son, who play those games and they are all great sweet kids. They are also unschooling kids who have a great relationship with their parents and have a peaceful joyful life and I think that is the difference.
I suggest you play those games and see how fun it is to do some "bad things" with pixels.
I would never hurt anyone but boy it is fun to run over people sometimes!
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: Tiffani <tiffermomof5@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Video game/TV viewing
We have never had limits on anything like tv, video games or computers. My husbands loves video games so my kids have always had them available. I am currently struggling with types of games. We have always had fighting games, war games and such along with cutesy light hearted games. I get really uncomfortable when the game has a lot of sexual stuff in it or a lot of cussing. My teen sons were not into video games but my 11 year old son is really into them. He has been asking for games where the label says sexual content. I do not think that is his reason for wanting them but it is in there. He current plays Teen and Mature content games. I know there are games where the player can kill prostitutes and cops and such and I really do not like that. Again I do not know that my son would even be interested in that part of the game. I do want to encourage that kind of disregard for human life and I know it is a game. I also know a lot of young
men who have played this type of game and grew up to be loving husbands and fathers and to my knowledge have not actually killed anyone. Any thougths?
Tiffani
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MY son used to love them. He played them when last year and this year I think. He is 10.
According to a friend who's husband is a NY Cop it is one of the most played games by cops!
They , too, want to play the bad guy sometimes. It is fun. I saw my son playing and running over people for fun.
IN real life my so does not even hurt his sister when she is being pushy and even hurting him. He is really sweet to her.
I know other children , other than my son, who play those games and they are all great sweet kids. They are also unschooling kids who have a great relationship with their parents and have a peaceful joyful life and I think that is the difference.
I suggest you play those games and see how fun it is to do some "bad things" with pixels.
I would never hurt anyone but boy it is fun to run over people sometimes!
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: Tiffani <tiffermomof5@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Video game/TV viewing
We have never had limits on anything like tv, video games or computers. My husbands loves video games so my kids have always had them available. I am currently struggling with types of games. We have always had fighting games, war games and such along with cutesy light hearted games. I get really uncomfortable when the game has a lot of sexual stuff in it or a lot of cussing. My teen sons were not into video games but my 11 year old son is really into them. He has been asking for games where the label says sexual content. I do not think that is his reason for wanting them but it is in there. He current plays Teen and Mature content games. I know there are games where the player can kill prostitutes and cops and such and I really do not like that. Again I do not know that my son would even be interested in that part of the game. I do want to encourage that kind of disregard for human life and I know it is a game. I also know a lot of young
men who have played this type of game and grew up to be loving husbands and fathers and to my knowledge have not actually killed anyone. Any thougths?
Tiffani
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 29, 2012, at 11:40 AM, Tiffani wrote:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/66792
(Maybe it was Facebook on the Radical Unschooling group? My internet's being off-and-on slow so I can't look right now.)
Sometimes roleplaying is about playing a role you're drawn to.
Sometimes roleplaying is about exploring what life is like when the rules are different.
Here's something I wrote recently:
Games are about exploring a world where the rules are different. It's fun to "kill" things in a game *because* it's not real life. In a game you get to do things you can't or don't want to do in real life. In the case of war, you get to experience the strategy of hunting and killing�and being hunted and killed�without having to kill real people, without hurting their families and friends.
Does reading murder mysteries make people want to get away with murder?
Playing a game, reading a book, doesn't change the real life consequences of those actions.
I love the technology of war, always have. All those machines and their powerful and destructive abilities are really cool. But it doesn't make me like what they're designed to do. If there was never a need for another war, that would be wonderful. I have a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. At one point I could have done some serious damage to someone. It didn't make me want to hurt people.
They aren't disregarding human life. They're playing the role of someone with a disregard of human life. They're seeing what it's like to be someone like that.
Why do you think you son would like to actually be someone like that?
How would it feel if you over heard your husband saying "I don't want my wife reading murder mysteries. I don't want her to treat life so casually as though murder were an easy solution."
Doesn't that sound really disconnected? Like he's judging you from the surface rather than from knowing and trusting who you are?
Kids have a better handle on the difference between reality and fantasy than adults seem to. Your head may be saying it knows the difference but your emotions are saying they're the same.
Do you play? Not everyone will love video games any more than all people will love The Beatles. But playing them to understand better, to get to know your children better, will grow closer relationships. I personally find it really off-putting when someone rants about a show then says they've never seen it. Don't judge things by what they look like. Don't judge people by the surface. By getting to know what he loves and why he loves it, you'll know your son better and be closer.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I get really uncomfortable when the game has a lot of sexual stuff in itThen you shouldn't play such games ;-)
> or a lot of cussing.There was a recent good thread about swearing. Here's one from April though I thought it was before that:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/66792
(Maybe it was Facebook on the Radical Unschooling group? My internet's being off-and-on slow so I can't look right now.)
> I know there are games where the player can kill prostitutesThey're taking on the role of a character who kills characters who are prostitutes and cops. No real prostitutes or cops are killed.
> and cops and such and I really do not like that.
Sometimes roleplaying is about playing a role you're drawn to.
Sometimes roleplaying is about exploring what life is like when the rules are different.
Here's something I wrote recently:
Games are about exploring a world where the rules are different. It's fun to "kill" things in a game *because* it's not real life. In a game you get to do things you can't or don't want to do in real life. In the case of war, you get to experience the strategy of hunting and killing�and being hunted and killed�without having to kill real people, without hurting their families and friends.
Does reading murder mysteries make people want to get away with murder?
Playing a game, reading a book, doesn't change the real life consequences of those actions.
I love the technology of war, always have. All those machines and their powerful and destructive abilities are really cool. But it doesn't make me like what they're designed to do. If there was never a need for another war, that would be wonderful. I have a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. At one point I could have done some serious damage to someone. It didn't make me want to hurt people.
> I do want to encourage that kind of disregard for human life and I know it is a game.I assume you mean you DO NOT want to encourage.
They aren't disregarding human life. They're playing the role of someone with a disregard of human life. They're seeing what it's like to be someone like that.
Why do you think you son would like to actually be someone like that?
How would it feel if you over heard your husband saying "I don't want my wife reading murder mysteries. I don't want her to treat life so casually as though murder were an easy solution."
Doesn't that sound really disconnected? Like he's judging you from the surface rather than from knowing and trusting who you are?
Kids have a better handle on the difference between reality and fantasy than adults seem to. Your head may be saying it knows the difference but your emotions are saying they're the same.
Do you play? Not everyone will love video games any more than all people will love The Beatles. But playing them to understand better, to get to know your children better, will grow closer relationships. I personally find it really off-putting when someone rants about a show then says they've never seen it. Don't judge things by what they look like. Don't judge people by the surface. By getting to know what he loves and why he loves it, you'll know your son better and be closer.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
He's never been into the Grand Theft Auto type games but enjoyed playing Fable for awhile - it's a game set up so the main character can be Good or Evil or anything in between, and the end game plays out differently based on those choices. It's rated... "teen" I think - fade out scenes for the sex. He played it for both extremes, played to find out if his character (the main character is always male) could marry another man, played to see if he could have sex without getting married (no), tried to see how many "spouses" he could have in how many towns and generally had fun pushing the parameters of the game.
He's a nice guy. Now and then he has gotten himself into some iffy situations, but he has gotten out of them quickly - he has no interest in fighting in real life, not even the casual drunken fisticuffs which are something of a norm in the redneck south, and certainly not anything involving knives or guns. He's careful and sensitive in his relationships. Games didn't make him who he is, they're for fun, and maybe sometimes a way to consider difficult subjects safely, but not some kind of practice for real life.
---Meredith
> According to a friend who's husband is a NY Cop it is one of the most played games by cops!Ray loves to play skateboarding games and crash - over and over and over. He's done a lot of skateboarding and says it's entertaining to have pain free crashes.
>
> They , too, want to play the bad guy sometimes. It is fun. I saw my son playing and running over people for fun.
He's never been into the Grand Theft Auto type games but enjoyed playing Fable for awhile - it's a game set up so the main character can be Good or Evil or anything in between, and the end game plays out differently based on those choices. It's rated... "teen" I think - fade out scenes for the sex. He played it for both extremes, played to find out if his character (the main character is always male) could marry another man, played to see if he could have sex without getting married (no), tried to see how many "spouses" he could have in how many towns and generally had fun pushing the parameters of the game.
He's a nice guy. Now and then he has gotten himself into some iffy situations, but he has gotten out of them quickly - he has no interest in fighting in real life, not even the casual drunken fisticuffs which are something of a norm in the redneck south, and certainly not anything involving knives or guns. He's careful and sensitive in his relationships. Games didn't make him who he is, they're for fun, and maybe sometimes a way to consider difficult subjects safely, but not some kind of practice for real life.
---Meredith
Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
This was something that helped me a whole lot. I don't like the same kinds of games Ray does, but finding one game I did like went a long way toward helping me see what was so interesting and absorbing about them. Before I actually played a game all the way through, I didn't realize they had plots! Sometimes the plots are sketchy and the story is really all about the action, sometimes they're involved and fascinating and the game is nearly incidental - more like an interactive story with a few side challenges for fun. In fact, if you play with all the "cheats" on, you can skip right over most of the challenges in some games - I have one I've played that way, more interested in the plot than the game.
Learning to see games as interactive stories was a big "aha" for me.
---Meredith
>> Do you play? Not everyone will love video games any more than all people will love The Beatles. But playing them to understand better, to get to know your children better, will grow closer relationships.*************
This was something that helped me a whole lot. I don't like the same kinds of games Ray does, but finding one game I did like went a long way toward helping me see what was so interesting and absorbing about them. Before I actually played a game all the way through, I didn't realize they had plots! Sometimes the plots are sketchy and the story is really all about the action, sometimes they're involved and fascinating and the game is nearly incidental - more like an interactive story with a few side challenges for fun. In fact, if you play with all the "cheats" on, you can skip right over most of the challenges in some games - I have one I've played that way, more interested in the plot than the game.
Learning to see games as interactive stories was a big "aha" for me.
---Meredith