Stephanie Selby

A multi-parter but I believe my questions are all related and relevant.

The recent post regarding the ipad, got me thinking about saying sorry as a
parent. I feel like I do my fair share of battling the egocentric parent,
that would be myself here, in that I will want something done my way or
right now. I am not as calm as I'd like to be and I struggle with the
thinking and being thoughtful when it comes to all facets of life,
including parenting, and I have been more of a type-A personality that is
learning that life is best to watch and see than it is to take life by the
horns. I have gotten to be much more at peace with the way I parent, as I
sit back and watch more and listen a lot more and really try to see life
through their eyes, as people I truly care about. I struggle because I was
raised by the hand that dealt a spanking when there needed to be a reason
to cry, rather than I was crying because I did have a reason, even if I
couldn't verbalize it. So I do mess up, and I do apologize. I do not have
a problem with apologizing; I do not have a part of my personality that has
a hard time apologizing or seeing from another's point of view. Ideally
reacting, all the time, in such a way that I wouldn't often have a reason
to apologize, meaning that I have finally let-go of expectations, and rely
on trust and acceptance. This is hard for me. It is a constant
self-assessment.

So where am I? I am undergoing a transition and I have explained this to my
7 year old, and I think she kind of understands what I am meaning.
Sometimes it feels like I am apologizing a lot, I also have ADHD, so my
impulse control isn't fantastic, but I quickly realize there may be a
better way to solve something. As mindful parenting matures, does this ever
become more effortless, or is it always a constant watch of what you are
doing? When I don't see their point of view, react and then apologize how
wishy-washy do my children view me, or are they seeing that I am trying? A
lot of you have been through this, but I am IN it, I don't know the
outcomes. Is wishy-washiness even an issue I should concern myself with?

My parental role models are my father who went to military school, my
grandfather the Naval Academy and my mother who was more tender, though she
would have outbursts, she tried to see from my point of view and did
apologize. She still struggles with acceptance by others and expecting
children to act a certain way. Neither were good at knowing what could be
expected from a child at certain ages, like being "good" at a store/
restaurant etc. Along those lines with the expectation that the 12 year old
boy could handle 3 weeks of work. When a child falls short of something,
when/ how do you realize the child wasn't old/mature enough to handle a
situation? Or when is it that the child COULD have handled it, but decided
not to? Is it in the set-up that you guys know the difference? In the case
of the iPad, I agree that the child should be given the iPad. How could
things have been handled differently from the beginning? I think if I had a
child that was 12 and he decided he wanted to do something to earn
something, would money suffice? That way he would earn what he could
handle, be it a week or a month, the money would reflect what he could
handle and then in the end would feel happy he had at least earned
something. Or if he just decided he didn't want to complete it because it
was more work than he WANTED to do, he COULD have made more if he had
decided to work harder. Do you alter the initial set-up so you don't have
to punish when a child gives up?



Stephanie


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Sandra Dodd

-=-Is wishy-washiness even an issue I should concern myself with?-=-

http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
http://sandradodd.com/choices

You should concern yourself with every decision you ever make. You should concern yourself with your child's comfort and safety in everything you do.

You should try to drop the "I have ADHD" defense. You are the way you are. You either learn to be a good person or you don't bother.

-=-When a child falls short of something,
when/ how do you realize the child wasn't old/mature enough to handle a
situation? Or when is it that the child COULD have handled it, but decided
not to? -=-

Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

Don't put a child in a long-term commitment.

-=- Or if he just decided he didn't want to complete it because it
was more work than he WANTED to do, he COULD have made more if he had
decided to work harder. Do you alter the initial set-up so you don't have
to punish when a child gives up?-=-

This is many giant steps from unschooling. You don't "have to" do anything. Not a thing. You certainly don't "have to punish."

http://sandradodd.com/haveto

Neither you nor your child should do things you don't want to do.

Read more about choices and "have to."
I think if you save your question and look back at it in a year, you'll be amused.

Sandra

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Robert and Colleen

****In the case of the iPad, I agree that the child should be given the
iPad. How could things have been handled differently from the beginning? I
think if I had a child that was 12 and he decided he wanted to do something
to earn something, would money suffice? That way he would earn what he could
handle, be it a week or a month, the money would reflect what he could
handle and then in the end would feel happy he had at least earned
something. Or if he just decided he didn't want to complete it because it
was more work than he WANTED to do, he COULD have made more if he had
decided to work harder. Do you alter the initial set-up so you don't have to
punish when a child gives up?****



When my husband and I were out running errands today we were talking about
an extended family member whose 6 year old child had a giant meltdown
recently. His mom had promised to get him a cupcake on the way home if he
"behaved" - and sure enough his behavior wasn't what she wanted and she told
him "that's it - no cupcake for you!!" And her son flipped out.



The idea that he should Earn his cupcake is tied up in the idea that he
should only have a cupcake if he Deserves one.



What pressure!



Kids will have plenty of time to grow up and get jobs and earn salaries or
paychecks - they don't need to practice earning things (or attention or
affection) when they're little. Figuring out how to Earn your cupcake (or
your iPad) when you're young doesn't make you more able or qualified to earn
enough money to cover your mortgage payment later in your life.



And as to the idea of Deserve - I plain don't like it :-) Are there kids
who don't Deserve cupcakes or iPads or hugs or happiness? I've never met
any. Deserve isn't a work I use and I don't think it's a word (or concept)
that's useful in raising joyful children in a happy way.



Colleen









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Stephanie Selby

-=- Or if he just decided he didn't want to complete it because it

was more work than he WANTED to do, he COULD have made more if he had
decided to work harder. Do you alter the initial set-up so you don't have
to punish when a child gives up?-=-

^^^This is many giant steps from unschooling. You don't "have to" do
anything. Not a thing. You certainly don't "have to punish." ^^^ I did use
the term punish as reference to the alternative conventional way of
thinking. In a conventional household, people believe that they must set-up
scenarios so the child will learn how to manage money, as if they won't
learn that without it being set-up. And I see what you are talking about,
there isn't an initial set-up. It's a non-issue.. Ahhh geez, light-bulb.

Stephanie

<http://sandradodd.com/haveto>


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Karen

>>>>> The idea that he should Earn his cupcake is tied up in the idea that he
should only have a cupcake if he Deserves one.<<<<<

People seem to do this with a lot of things. In our circle of friends, we see it with video games as well as sweets. If you get good grades, then you can get another iPad game. If you pick up after yourself, then you can have a bit more time on the computer.

>>>>> What pressure!<<<<<<

What pressure, indeed!! And, I believe it muddies the waters.

This past week, we were visiting family. A cousin my son (Ethan) loves to play with was shocked to learn that our ten year old son knows the password to our iPad Apps account. My sister-in-law thought that was a very bad idea. She said her son (the cousin) would rack up a bill she could never afford. Ethan, who was sitting there listening, said, "Well, I always ask first." And, he does always check in with us before he makes a purchase. About half the time he offers to pay for the games from his allowance. We've never asked him to do so. He thinks it's fun buying things with his money. Sometimes it's a string of games he wants. Sometimes they are free. Some days it might be that we spend $10 on a few games. Months can go by where we spend $0.

Anyway, that night after the conversation about the password, we were back at our hotel. I was relaxing on the bed watching television. Ethan came over to me and said "I really like it that you guys let me get games on the iPad." He was looking me right in the eyes. He was smiling, but I could tell he was also searching for something. So I sat up, took his hands in mine, smiled and looked calmly in his eyes for a moment. I said, "It's fun, isn't it!" He wrapped his arms around me and said, "Yeah, it is!"

We're very fortunate we can afford much of what he asks for right now. Really, he asks for very little anyway. But, even if we had less income, I wouldn't make him perform to get the things he wants. I see what that does in other families. It erodes trust. What I have noticed in our family, is that if I am a trustworthy person, who doesn't act in manipulative ways to get my son to do what I want him to do, my son can be himself too. I completely trust him. He knows that, and naturally acts in ways that preserves our relationship. He's only ten, as I said, so time will confirm or deny any merit to this way we live. But I'll tell you now, it's easier keeping things honest and clear and free of all the manipulation games of conventional parenting. Easier for Ethan for sure. But I'm finding it much, much easier for me too. Clearer, it seems, for both of us.

Meredith

Stephanie Selby <babelsgp@...> wrote:
>As mindful parenting matures, does this ever
> become more effortless, or is it always a constant watch of what you are
> doing?

Practice helps. Kids getting older helps, too. Practice helps more when you recognize your successes, even small ones, and use your less-than-perfect moments as a chance to think and learn, rather than beat yourself up for failing. At first, it may seem like all your best ideas come after the fact - but even those ideas can be stored for later, added to your options for next time.

>When a child falls short of something,
> when/ how do you realize the child wasn't old/mature enough to handle a
> situation? Or when is it that the child COULD have handled it, but decided
> not to? Is it in the set-up that you guys know the difference?

The difference isn't really important. For one thing, adults regularly make mistakes where they over-estimate what they can handle. It's normal. In fact, I think it's endemic among people who run their own businesses ;) What comes from experience (not maturity) is knowing how and when to bail out versus shoving through and getting things done - and part of that comes from learning to have a back-up plan - even a fuzzy back-up plan like "yell for help". In fact, in the world of very small businesses, yelling for help is a pretty standard plan - the shop I work for trades off favors with half a dozen other small businesses at need: my sewing machine is down, can I use yours? I can't finish this job in time, would you mind taking part of it? I threw my back, can I borrow your part-timer for a week? Knowing you can get help to get over a hump can be the difference between success and failure in small businesses.

>>Or when is it that the child COULD have handled it, but decided
> not to?

The other thing is to realize that Deciding one isn't going to handle something can be really healthy. It's not a bad skill for a child to learn - it's good to realize that one doesn't Have To do everything asked of one. A lot of kids don't get the chance to learn that until they're adults, and then it's easy to be the martyr - oh, my life is so hard, I Have To do All These Things... Better to learn to say "you know, I really don't think I'm up for that right now" and save a lot of stress.

---Meredith

Meredith

Stephanie Selby <babelsgp@...> wrote:
> And I see what you are talking about,
> there isn't an initial set-up. It's a non-issue.. Ahhh geez, light-bulb.

That's something which took me a long time to grasp - and now the idea of "an initial set-up" is like something from a foreign language. I can derive the meaning, but it's not instantly obvious to me.

As much as unschooling is all about learning, it often helps to step way back from learning as a focus or a goal at first, because "learning" is so tied up in setting kids up to learn and/or exploiting teachable moments to make sure kids learn "the right things". Something that used to help me, back in the day, was to "catch" myself thinking "children need to learn..." - just stop right there lady! Children learn. And send myself in another direction, change the subject, focus my attention elsewhere, away from the details of what and how learning might/should/could happen and on to what my kids were doing in that moment.

---Meredith

kristi_beguin

Stephanie Selby wrote:
>>>Ideally reacting, all the time, in such a way that I wouldn't often have a reason to apologize, meaning that I have finally let-go of expectations, and rely on trust and acceptance. This is hard for me. It is a constant self-assessment.<<<

This is written unclearly, but I think I get your gist--Ideally, you want to become so adept at being mindful of your choices and decisions that you don't have to apologize to your kids so often.

>>>As mindful parenting matures, does this ever become more effortless, or is it always a constant watch of what you are doing?<<<

Sandra wrote:
>>>You should concern yourself with every decision you ever make. You should concern yourself with your child's comfort and safety in everything you do.<<<

I wanted to touch on this issue because I recently found Sandra's words to be ever so true. I had backed off reading messages in this list for the past year. Things were messy and stressful with work, I was focusing on things I needed to do to ensure I was employed and that we had food on the table and could pay for the things we enjoy. I didn't really realize how stressed out I had become until I started noticing how often I was snapping responses, and how often my children were snapping responses back. I found myself stuck in a rut of being unkind, and responding without being mindful of the choices I had in front of me.

Realizing that I was headed in the wrong direction, and seeing the effects so clearly in how all my family was interacting with eachother was enough to wake me up. Interestingly, I jumped onto this list and read through a couple topics and soon felt equipped with the tools I was already in possession of, I had just set them aside. Thanks to the solid, dedicated, and repetitive words of Sandra, and Joyce, and Pam, and Meredith, and so many others, I was able to put those tools back into my parenting toolbox.

I realized how very important it is to pay attention to my responses, to take a moment and see the possible choices I had, to remember to be sweet, and loving, and kind whenever I possibly could. The change has been rapid, and we all feel better. But it was easy for me to fall off-track simply because I got all wrapped-up into what I thought were more pressing things. Nothing is more pressing than the happiness and emotional and physical well-being of my kids!

>>>When I don't see their point of view, react and then apologize how wishy-washy do my children view me, or are they seeing that I am trying? A lot of you have been through this, but I am IN it<<<

It took me about 4 weeks to get back into the groove of being mindful and not reacting and over-reacting, after several months of what I would call just being reactive. If I mess up I apologize. I hug my girls, I rub their feet, I brush their hair. I just do whatever I can to make sure they know that I absolutely love them.

We've been unschooling for 5 years. I've been trying to be a mindful loving Mama for 10. I think that as we evolve, and grow, and learn as parents, it becomes easier to see the ways to be more peaceful and loving. It still takes work, though.

Sandra Dodd

Kristi, thanks for writing this:

-=-I jumped onto this list and read through a couple topics and soon felt equipped with the tools I was already in possession of, I had just set them aside. Thanks to the solid, dedicated, and repetitive words of Sandra, and Joyce, and Pam, and Meredith, and so many others, I was able to put those tools back into my parenting toolbox.-=-

While it's true that we rewrite and rephrase things (and have for years), we also use links to my pages and Joyce's to avoid needing to re-write things that were phrased in great ways in the past.

It frustrates me when someone argues "yeah but..." just moments after we've sent a link that could have answered her questions in the voices of many unschooling moms who have already gotten it.

There is a value to the writers in getting their ideas out clearly, and I'm glad for your story of a year of forgetfulness, Kristi. Joyce is sweet to write at length when she's already furnished all this for free:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

Every time someone responds in a thoughtful, heartfelt way, though, with ideas that can improve the entire long lives of children now living, and their children after, I feel glad to have continued to help unschoolers even though my kids are grown.

Sandra

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Pam Sorooshian

I used to constantly ask myself, "What are they REALLY learning right now
from me?" Most often, if I was asking myself that question, it was not
something I wanted them to learn. It was often something like, "Mom is so
annoying I should avoid her," or "Mom talks too much and doesn't listen
enough," etc.
-pam

On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...>wrote:

> As much as unschooling is all about learning, it often helps to step way
> back from learning as a focus or a goal at first, because "learning" is so
> tied up in setting kids up to learn and/or exploiting teachable moments to
> make sure kids learn "the right things". Something that used to help me,
> back in the day, was to "catch" myself thinking "children need to learn..."
> - just stop right there lady! Children learn. And send myself in another
> direction,


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tania

Am 23/dic/12 um 19:52 schrieb Meredith:

> Stephanie Selby <babelsgp@...> wrote:
> >As mindful parenting matures, does this ever
> > become more effortless, or is it always a constant watch of what
> you are
> > doing?
>
for me this constant watching myself got less, because i am really
sure about what kind of parent i want to be. because i did manage some
difficult situations just well and i know i can do it. because i had
my share of wonderful days, where it was so easy and fine and perfect
- my life, our relationships, even the weather ;-). and because these
days are by now so many that some bad days - even in a row - feel just
as that: some bad days. going to pass. and with bad i mean of course
the fact that i am not "there", not relaxed. what helped me most is
actually writing answers to other people's problems - realizing that i
do have something to share and to tell. (i am writing on german lists
and forums).

all this from a beginner mama - radically unschooling since pregnancy,
but my oldest is not even four yet..

tania (italy) with two sons, 4 years and 3 months

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Sandra Dodd

-=-e these
days are by now so many that some bad days - even in a row - feel just
as that: some bad days. going to pass. and with bad i mean of course
the fact that i am not "there", not relaxed.-=-

Days are too long.

Go with moments:
http://sandradodd.com/moment

A couple of bad moments can't make a bad day. :-)

Sandra

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keetry

== I used to constantly ask myself, "What are they REALLY learning right now from me?" Most often, if I was asking myself that question, it was not something I wanted them to learn. ==

This is so important, I think. So often children are not learning what parents think they are learning from the parents "lessons".

That's the first thing I ask someone who brings up to me how they have been doing this or that to make their child understand something and the child just isn't getting it. Well, if the child isn't getting it, maybe you should stop doing it.

And what is the child getting? Mommy is mean. Daddy is a jerk. Not the kinds of things I want my children to learn about me.

Alysia

Gwen Montoya

I really love the "bad moments, not bad days" idea!

If you are a having a bad day, then the whole day is a write-off. Give up and try again tomorrow, right?

But a bad moment? Those don't last long and another moment to make things better is right around the corner.


Gwen




On Dec 24, 2012, at 4:41 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-e these
> days are by now so many that some bad days - even in a row - feel just
> as that: some bad days. going to pass. and with bad i mean of course
> the fact that i am not "there", not relaxed.-=-
>
> Days are too long.
>
> Go with moments:
> http://sandradodd.com/moment
>
> A couple of bad moments can't make a bad day. :-)
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp

-=- As mindful parenting matures, does this ever become more effortless, or is it always a constant watch of what you are doing? -=-

For me it's both. Mindful parenting is more effortless, because the more I do it, the easier it becomes.

I still choose to pay attention to what I'm doing and saying, because I want to learn better ways. It's also easy for me to slip into unhelpful behaviours that I learned from my childhood when I'm feeling tired/hungry/worried/stressed/anxious/blue/irritated/etc. My years of experience with mindful parenting help me figure out that I'm off course sooner and help me calm down sooner.

As much as I would love to be perfectly mindful at all times, there is daily evidence to the contrary. I will say that being aware of my thoughts, words and actions is a joy, and not a chore for me. It's a tool I use to help myself have better relationships.

Rippy


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