My Anger & Frustration with my son ...I can't get over it.
Jen
I am at a standstill about how to go about communicating and "being" with my 4-year old son. I also have a 2 year old daughter and am pregnant with #3 (due in Jan.) I am tired and frustrated.
What I thought was a phase has proven to be more of a temperament thing. My son, through no fault of his own due to my changes in parenting throughout this last year, is whiny, lost, bored and confused. We used to have more structure in our home (when he was going to preschool 3x a week). Since I've let up on structure, added in fun things to do, given him free access to things like my computer/iPad/TV, etc., he has gotten progressively more demanding of me & my husband...expecting us, ALWAYS, to drop what we are doing to help him with something. I usually do it, and there are days I do it with a smile on my face and other days that I am frustrated and angry that he is not understanding that mom & dad have things/time to be respected as well. It never sinks in. It's been almost a year of transition for us (that's when I removed him from preschool, so the "deschooling" should be done by now).
I am planning on reading The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff for my next child because I do believe that babywearing and co-sleeping has a huge affect on a child...with my son I would always put him down when he fell asleep as a baby...let him cry it out (anything Dr. Spock, you name it, I did it). I feel I let him down as an infant/baby. I wasn't aware of what I was doing then. I was just following other people's advice.
Some of the other things going on that frustrate me...and no matter how I go into each day (positive or not), I always end up being upset with him and frustrated with myself for being angry/upset. Every. Day.
* Whining incessantly until he gets whatever it is he wants. A cookie. Candy. Or, with the iPad, he expects that no matter how often, how expensive, etc. it is, he should get whatever game he is requesting...even if it's out of his league (adult game, etc.) I have put restrictions on him buying things on the iPad, but the ads from his other games continue to pop up, he sees them and asks me about them. I either buy it or he ends up upset because I say "no, not today" and explain that we are cutting expenses, etc., and that we cannot buy things whenever we feel like it. Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it isn't. But I still have a voice inside me that says "you cannot give a child everything he asks for all the time!" If I did, with him, I'd be spending over $100 a week on STUFF. Stuff he plays with for an hour and then never touches again. Where should the limit be?
* He tries to hit his sister / calls her names no matter what the issue at hand may be. Small frustrations = big deals for him. I do protect her and usually catch him before it happens, but it happens often. I feel sorry for her...she wants to be his friend and play, but he's so mean to her all the time.
* He wants to play games with us as a family, but can NOT stand to lose. On days that we don't want to deal with a melt down, we try to help him win. On days we are stronger, we try to play right and talk to him throughout the crying and playing that winning isn't the object...being together as a family and playing together is what matters...that not everyone can win all the time. You know, real life stuff. He can't STAND losing in any capacity. He wants to play the game (requests to even!), but he doesn't want to lose...even if he's behind in the game with still a chance of winning, he's miserable). If he's playing catch with daddy and drops the football, it's a tragedy and then he doesn't want to play anymore. So, he goes and does something easy or plays iPad by himself.
* The moment anything gets even a little challenging, he gives up. Doesn't want to do it and says he's tired. Then, he goes to play iPad somewhere off by himself.
See the pattern here?
I realize a lot of this is our fault from going from Love & Logic methods (think Supernanny) to more of an unstructured unschooling/attachment parenting life. I want to practice attachment parenting with him and be close, but I feel I've started too late, he's drifted from me...he doesn't want to be close because my frustration with his temperament has pushed him away. I have even pushed him away in times I knew he needed me because I was so frustrated with how he was acting either toward his sister or another child. And times that I have gone to him when he was sad/upset, as soon as he calms down, he asks me for the "thing" (whatever it may be) that he wanted that started the meltdown...e.g. cookie, treat, movie, game, etc.) It's as if he feigns needing affection to get what he wants...although I know that sounds crazy. I hope I don't sound like a horrible mother. I really want to help our situation.
Is there anything I can do to mend this relationship before it's too late? Please help...
Thank you so much in advance. I really respect this group and look forward to your responses.
What I thought was a phase has proven to be more of a temperament thing. My son, through no fault of his own due to my changes in parenting throughout this last year, is whiny, lost, bored and confused. We used to have more structure in our home (when he was going to preschool 3x a week). Since I've let up on structure, added in fun things to do, given him free access to things like my computer/iPad/TV, etc., he has gotten progressively more demanding of me & my husband...expecting us, ALWAYS, to drop what we are doing to help him with something. I usually do it, and there are days I do it with a smile on my face and other days that I am frustrated and angry that he is not understanding that mom & dad have things/time to be respected as well. It never sinks in. It's been almost a year of transition for us (that's when I removed him from preschool, so the "deschooling" should be done by now).
I am planning on reading The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff for my next child because I do believe that babywearing and co-sleeping has a huge affect on a child...with my son I would always put him down when he fell asleep as a baby...let him cry it out (anything Dr. Spock, you name it, I did it). I feel I let him down as an infant/baby. I wasn't aware of what I was doing then. I was just following other people's advice.
Some of the other things going on that frustrate me...and no matter how I go into each day (positive or not), I always end up being upset with him and frustrated with myself for being angry/upset. Every. Day.
* Whining incessantly until he gets whatever it is he wants. A cookie. Candy. Or, with the iPad, he expects that no matter how often, how expensive, etc. it is, he should get whatever game he is requesting...even if it's out of his league (adult game, etc.) I have put restrictions on him buying things on the iPad, but the ads from his other games continue to pop up, he sees them and asks me about them. I either buy it or he ends up upset because I say "no, not today" and explain that we are cutting expenses, etc., and that we cannot buy things whenever we feel like it. Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it isn't. But I still have a voice inside me that says "you cannot give a child everything he asks for all the time!" If I did, with him, I'd be spending over $100 a week on STUFF. Stuff he plays with for an hour and then never touches again. Where should the limit be?
* He tries to hit his sister / calls her names no matter what the issue at hand may be. Small frustrations = big deals for him. I do protect her and usually catch him before it happens, but it happens often. I feel sorry for her...she wants to be his friend and play, but he's so mean to her all the time.
* He wants to play games with us as a family, but can NOT stand to lose. On days that we don't want to deal with a melt down, we try to help him win. On days we are stronger, we try to play right and talk to him throughout the crying and playing that winning isn't the object...being together as a family and playing together is what matters...that not everyone can win all the time. You know, real life stuff. He can't STAND losing in any capacity. He wants to play the game (requests to even!), but he doesn't want to lose...even if he's behind in the game with still a chance of winning, he's miserable). If he's playing catch with daddy and drops the football, it's a tragedy and then he doesn't want to play anymore. So, he goes and does something easy or plays iPad by himself.
* The moment anything gets even a little challenging, he gives up. Doesn't want to do it and says he's tired. Then, he goes to play iPad somewhere off by himself.
See the pattern here?
I realize a lot of this is our fault from going from Love & Logic methods (think Supernanny) to more of an unstructured unschooling/attachment parenting life. I want to practice attachment parenting with him and be close, but I feel I've started too late, he's drifted from me...he doesn't want to be close because my frustration with his temperament has pushed him away. I have even pushed him away in times I knew he needed me because I was so frustrated with how he was acting either toward his sister or another child. And times that I have gone to him when he was sad/upset, as soon as he calms down, he asks me for the "thing" (whatever it may be) that he wanted that started the meltdown...e.g. cookie, treat, movie, game, etc.) It's as if he feigns needing affection to get what he wants...although I know that sounds crazy. I hope I don't sound like a horrible mother. I really want to help our situation.
Is there anything I can do to mend this relationship before it's too late? Please help...
Thank you so much in advance. I really respect this group and look forward to your responses.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:44 AM, Jen wrote:
Three things that might help with shifting are:
Ross Greene's The Explosive Child?
http://amzn.to/JCilMW
And Raising Your Spirited Child Rev Ed: A Guide for Parents Whose Child Is More Intense, Sensitive, Perceptive, Persistent, and Energetic by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
http://amzn.to/IKBN4R
THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
I suspect what's happened is that previously when he asked in more acceptable ways they didn't work. So now he just skips to what does work. Rather than trying to disconnect his only tool that's working, focus on the cause: needs that he can't meet himself.
You are your son's power to manipulate the world. When he needs something he can't get on his own, you're like a mechanical hand that only works occasionally and randomly. Imagine how frustrating that would be!
While no one can have everything they want, what he's not getting is more than he can handle. He'll be able to handle the nos better when *he* trusts you want him to be happy and will try what you can to meet his needs rather than whimsically -- as it seems to him -- saying yes or no.
When he whines you can say -- as you're getting what he is asking for and not angrily -- "I can understand what you want better if you speak in a normal voice."
While lots of kids go through a need to have lots and lots and lots, which is part of discovering what they like, perhaps you can give him a budget. Make a list of what he wants. Help him to slow down and make more thoughtful decisions.
Is there a way to cut down on the random ads he sees? Are there sites he can play on that might be less flashy?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> no matter how I go into each day (positive or not), I always end upIt sounds like you're trying to push down your feelings of frustration rather than shifting your view so that you're less frustrated in the first place.
> being upset with him and frustrated with myself for being angry/upset
Three things that might help with shifting are:
Ross Greene's The Explosive Child?
http://amzn.to/JCilMW
And Raising Your Spirited Child Rev Ed: A Guide for Parents Whose Child Is More Intense, Sensitive, Perceptive, Persistent, and Energetic by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
http://amzn.to/IKBN4R
THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
> Whining incessantly until he gets whatever it is he wants. A cookie. CandyWhy does he need to wait for those?
I suspect what's happened is that previously when he asked in more acceptable ways they didn't work. So now he just skips to what does work. Rather than trying to disconnect his only tool that's working, focus on the cause: needs that he can't meet himself.
You are your son's power to manipulate the world. When he needs something he can't get on his own, you're like a mechanical hand that only works occasionally and randomly. Imagine how frustrating that would be!
While no one can have everything they want, what he's not getting is more than he can handle. He'll be able to handle the nos better when *he* trusts you want him to be happy and will try what you can to meet his needs rather than whimsically -- as it seems to him -- saying yes or no.
When he whines you can say -- as you're getting what he is asking for and not angrily -- "I can understand what you want better if you speak in a normal voice."
> I either buy it or he ends up upset because I say "no, not today"To him whether you say yes or no seems completely random. He has no control over when he can have a game and when he can't. So he asks for way more than what he needs. It's like playing the lottery. He needs to ask for 10 things to get 1.
While lots of kids go through a need to have lots and lots and lots, which is part of discovering what they like, perhaps you can give him a budget. Make a list of what he wants. Help him to slow down and make more thoughtful decisions.
Is there a way to cut down on the random ads he sees? Are there sites he can play on that might be less flashy?
> He wants to play games with us as a family, but can NOT stand to lose.Until he can take losing, change the rules so the game isn't frustrating to him. Give him more of an advantage. Play the game cooperatively so everyone wins.
> The moment anything gets even a little challenging, he gives up.Let it go. Don't see it as giving up on challenge. See it as him choosing to not be frustrated for something that doesn't seem worth it right now. He will grow better able to handle frustration. Don't add to it with your own frustration and need for him to be someone other than who he is.
> I have even pushed him away in times I knew he needed meOften when they're at their worst is when they need you the most. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***We used to have more structure in our home (when he was going to preschool 3x a week). Since I've let up on structure, added in fun things to do, given him free access to things like my computer/iPad/TV, etc., he has gotten progressively more demanding of me & my husband...expecting us, ALWAYS, to drop what we are doing to help him with something.***
Are you looking for a reason to go back to your old way of doing things? Are you looking for permission? You get to do whatever you want.
***...given him free access to things like my computer/iPad/TV, etc., he has gotten progressively more demanding of me & my husband...***
Are you trying to occupy his time with those things? Computers, iPads and TV’s can be a wonderful part of life but should not be substitutes for time with you. If you’re giving him the iPad to play with so that you’ll have more time to do something else that’s not going to feel satisfying to him. If he wants *you* he can’t be happy with a computer. It ought to comfort you that you are of more value to him than an iPad.
Have you ever read any of those horrible Harry Harlow maternal separation experiments? (I’m not recommending you read them now.) I’m not suggesting your son is a Rhesus monkey but pointing out the warm, physical contact of a mother or father is essential for little beings. And the more you deny him by trying to replace your self with things the more he will feel needy.
***...expecting us, ALWAYS, to drop what we are doing to help him with something.***
Little children should *always* be able to expect help from their parents. If not you then who? Who should he be able to count on?
You have a two year old so your four year old probably looks big to you and by comparison probably seems capable. But he’s still little. He still needs you. And since he’s already had to make room for a little sister and give up some of his time with you because of her, he probably feeling even more as if he’s losing out with another baby coming. What will he have to do to get your time and attention with the new baby comes?
***I am frustrated and angry that he is not understanding that mom & dad have things/time to be respected as well.***
Little children shouldn’t have to think about what their parents need. They should be getting their needs met by the adults who knew what they were doing when they had a child. : ) The only way a person learns about respect is by feeling the value of being respected. Are you showing respect to him when he needs you and you get angry and frustrated? Learning about respect takes just as much time as it takes. It’s not something four year olds typically understand. You’re expecting too much from him. The quickest way to be less frustrated is to have realistic expectations of what a four year old is capable of and what he needs.
***I would always put him down when he fell asleep as a baby...let him cry it out...***
You’re still doing that. That’s what if feels like to him to have you always busy with something/someone else.
***Whining incessantly until he gets whatever it is he wants.***
Listen to him and help him get what he wants the first time he asks and he won’t have to whine. Sit close to him and touch him and be loving when he eats his cookies or candy. Be sweet and be *with* him.
***...he expects that no matter how often, how expensive, etc. it is, he should get whatever game he is requesting...***
Maybe’s trying to fill a void and he’ll fill it with games if he can’t have enough of you. Play the games with him.
***he ends up upset because I say "no, not today" ***
How often does he hear “no, not today” or “in a minute” or “maybe later”? Stop putting him off. Maybe you can’t buy every game he wants but it’s probably not about the games anyway.
***He tries to hit his sister / calls her names no matter what the issue at hand may be. Small frustrations = big deals for him. I do protect her and usually catch him before it happens, but it happens often. I feel sorry for her...she wants to be his friend and play, but he's so mean to her all the time.***
She moved into his house, his life, took away his time with you and wants his stuff. If your partner brought home another wife you’d probably not feel very kindly toward her. That’s how it feels to him.
***He wants to play games with us as a family, but can NOT stand to lose.***
Let him win. Change the rules so he can play happily. Let him change the rules. Let him win. It won’t last forever. He’ll get older and understand better.
***The moment anything gets even a little challenging, he gives up. Doesn't want to do it and says he's tired. Then, he goes to play iPad somewhere off by himself.***
If everything in his life feels like a challenge, navigating his sister, getting your attention, getting time with you, getting what he wants, one more challenge is too hard to take.
If either you or his father are competitive then he might be naturally competitive and at four, not yet coordinated or big enough to accomplish the grand things he can think of, or picture himself accomplishing. That can be very frustrating. Find games to play that he can be good at. Modify how you play so that he can feel successful. If it’s not fun for him, stop.
***See the pattern here?***
Yes. It looks like a pattern of you being too busy or tired or self involved to give him the time and attention and consideration he needs. He’s four. You seem to not be considering how very, very little he is, and how much he needs mothering. Maybe you can hire a mother’s helper so that she can be with him and play with him when you’re too busy, or play with his sister so you can be with him.
***I realize a lot of this is our fault from going from Love & Logic methods (think Supernanny) to more of an unstructured unschooling/attachment parenting life. ***
You’re blaming unschooling when it’s your behavior that’s the problem. If you were stricter and structured he needs to spend lots of sweet time with you to feel like he can trust you now to be more attached and loving. You can not be attachment parenting if you repeatedly put him off or try to occupy him with things so that you can do something else. Attach. Be with him. Play with him. Be sweet to him. Be interested in what he’s doing. Listen to him. Help him.
I know you’re busy but it’s a choice to have three children. You’re grown up. You knew children would require your time. He needs as much of your time as *he* needs, not as much as you feel like offering.
***Is there anything I can do to mend this relationship before it's too late?***
Absolutely! It’s not too late. He’s four! But he’s not the one who needs to change. You need to seem him for who he is. He’s a baby trying the only way he knows to cope with a new sister, another baby on the way, and a mom who’s very often too busy or tired for him. He’s not the one who needs to change. If you want to be close with him, that requires your physical closeness, your time, your bountiful, loving, happy attention. It requires you to stop looking at him through the negative lens you seem to not be able to put aside. Look at and think about the wonderful things about him. If you find yourself thinking negatively about him stop yourself and deliberately think of something sweet. Hug him. Smile warmly at him. He’s not the one who needs to change.
Find ways to spend time with him. Can you snuggle up with him in bed at night while your partner is with the two year old? Can you talk sweetly about whatever he likes, read stories, tell him stories about when he was a baby?
Does your two year old nap? When she’s asleep can you cuddle up with him, or play with him? You might be tempted to try to get something else done but spend that time with him. If you’re tried and need to rest, rest near him, invite him to snuggle.
Can your invite him to help with fun things. Dylan used to like to sit on the kitchen counter and visit with me while I was cooking. Sometimes he’d sit with his feet in the sink full of water.
Can you think of fun things he’d like to do and offer those? Would he like to color with you, sort buttons, play cars, watch a movie, dance, play with balloons, chop celery? Think of fun things and do them.
Can you go for a walk with him? Even a short walk around your neighborhood can feel like an adventure.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Are you looking for a reason to go back to your old way of doing things? Are you looking for permission? You get to do whatever you want.
***...given him free access to things like my computer/iPad/TV, etc., he has gotten progressively more demanding of me & my husband...***
Are you trying to occupy his time with those things? Computers, iPads and TV’s can be a wonderful part of life but should not be substitutes for time with you. If you’re giving him the iPad to play with so that you’ll have more time to do something else that’s not going to feel satisfying to him. If he wants *you* he can’t be happy with a computer. It ought to comfort you that you are of more value to him than an iPad.
Have you ever read any of those horrible Harry Harlow maternal separation experiments? (I’m not recommending you read them now.) I’m not suggesting your son is a Rhesus monkey but pointing out the warm, physical contact of a mother or father is essential for little beings. And the more you deny him by trying to replace your self with things the more he will feel needy.
***...expecting us, ALWAYS, to drop what we are doing to help him with something.***
Little children should *always* be able to expect help from their parents. If not you then who? Who should he be able to count on?
You have a two year old so your four year old probably looks big to you and by comparison probably seems capable. But he’s still little. He still needs you. And since he’s already had to make room for a little sister and give up some of his time with you because of her, he probably feeling even more as if he’s losing out with another baby coming. What will he have to do to get your time and attention with the new baby comes?
***I am frustrated and angry that he is not understanding that mom & dad have things/time to be respected as well.***
Little children shouldn’t have to think about what their parents need. They should be getting their needs met by the adults who knew what they were doing when they had a child. : ) The only way a person learns about respect is by feeling the value of being respected. Are you showing respect to him when he needs you and you get angry and frustrated? Learning about respect takes just as much time as it takes. It’s not something four year olds typically understand. You’re expecting too much from him. The quickest way to be less frustrated is to have realistic expectations of what a four year old is capable of and what he needs.
***I would always put him down when he fell asleep as a baby...let him cry it out...***
You’re still doing that. That’s what if feels like to him to have you always busy with something/someone else.
***Whining incessantly until he gets whatever it is he wants.***
Listen to him and help him get what he wants the first time he asks and he won’t have to whine. Sit close to him and touch him and be loving when he eats his cookies or candy. Be sweet and be *with* him.
***...he expects that no matter how often, how expensive, etc. it is, he should get whatever game he is requesting...***
Maybe’s trying to fill a void and he’ll fill it with games if he can’t have enough of you. Play the games with him.
***he ends up upset because I say "no, not today" ***
How often does he hear “no, not today” or “in a minute” or “maybe later”? Stop putting him off. Maybe you can’t buy every game he wants but it’s probably not about the games anyway.
***He tries to hit his sister / calls her names no matter what the issue at hand may be. Small frustrations = big deals for him. I do protect her and usually catch him before it happens, but it happens often. I feel sorry for her...she wants to be his friend and play, but he's so mean to her all the time.***
She moved into his house, his life, took away his time with you and wants his stuff. If your partner brought home another wife you’d probably not feel very kindly toward her. That’s how it feels to him.
***He wants to play games with us as a family, but can NOT stand to lose.***
Let him win. Change the rules so he can play happily. Let him change the rules. Let him win. It won’t last forever. He’ll get older and understand better.
***The moment anything gets even a little challenging, he gives up. Doesn't want to do it and says he's tired. Then, he goes to play iPad somewhere off by himself.***
If everything in his life feels like a challenge, navigating his sister, getting your attention, getting time with you, getting what he wants, one more challenge is too hard to take.
If either you or his father are competitive then he might be naturally competitive and at four, not yet coordinated or big enough to accomplish the grand things he can think of, or picture himself accomplishing. That can be very frustrating. Find games to play that he can be good at. Modify how you play so that he can feel successful. If it’s not fun for him, stop.
***See the pattern here?***
Yes. It looks like a pattern of you being too busy or tired or self involved to give him the time and attention and consideration he needs. He’s four. You seem to not be considering how very, very little he is, and how much he needs mothering. Maybe you can hire a mother’s helper so that she can be with him and play with him when you’re too busy, or play with his sister so you can be with him.
***I realize a lot of this is our fault from going from Love & Logic methods (think Supernanny) to more of an unstructured unschooling/attachment parenting life. ***
You’re blaming unschooling when it’s your behavior that’s the problem. If you were stricter and structured he needs to spend lots of sweet time with you to feel like he can trust you now to be more attached and loving. You can not be attachment parenting if you repeatedly put him off or try to occupy him with things so that you can do something else. Attach. Be with him. Play with him. Be sweet to him. Be interested in what he’s doing. Listen to him. Help him.
I know you’re busy but it’s a choice to have three children. You’re grown up. You knew children would require your time. He needs as much of your time as *he* needs, not as much as you feel like offering.
***Is there anything I can do to mend this relationship before it's too late?***
Absolutely! It’s not too late. He’s four! But he’s not the one who needs to change. You need to seem him for who he is. He’s a baby trying the only way he knows to cope with a new sister, another baby on the way, and a mom who’s very often too busy or tired for him. He’s not the one who needs to change. If you want to be close with him, that requires your physical closeness, your time, your bountiful, loving, happy attention. It requires you to stop looking at him through the negative lens you seem to not be able to put aside. Look at and think about the wonderful things about him. If you find yourself thinking negatively about him stop yourself and deliberately think of something sweet. Hug him. Smile warmly at him. He’s not the one who needs to change.
Find ways to spend time with him. Can you snuggle up with him in bed at night while your partner is with the two year old? Can you talk sweetly about whatever he likes, read stories, tell him stories about when he was a baby?
Does your two year old nap? When she’s asleep can you cuddle up with him, or play with him? You might be tempted to try to get something else done but spend that time with him. If you’re tried and need to rest, rest near him, invite him to snuggle.
Can your invite him to help with fun things. Dylan used to like to sit on the kitchen counter and visit with me while I was cooking. Sometimes he’d sit with his feet in the sink full of water.
Can you think of fun things he’d like to do and offer those? Would he like to color with you, sort buttons, play cars, watch a movie, dance, play with balloons, chop celery? Think of fun things and do them.
Can you go for a walk with him? Even a short walk around your neighborhood can feel like an adventure.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
It seems you are expecting way to much from a 4 year old. He is still a pretty little guy. In my book four is a baby and I am not the kind of mother that treats her kids as "babies"!! Just the other day a friend commented that she thinks it is so funny how I talk to my kids like they are people but that I talk to my animals like they are babies. HA!
<<<<<<<<<<* Whining incessantly until he gets whatever it is he wants. A cookie. Candy. Or, with the iPad, he expects that no matter how often, how expensive, etc. it is, he should get whatever game he is requesting...even if it's out of his league (adult game, etc.) I have put restrictions on him buying things on the iPad, but the ads from his other games continue to pop up, he sees them and asks me about them. I either buy it or he ends up upset because I say "no, not today" and explain that we are cutting expenses, etc., and that we cannot buy things whenever we feel like it. Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it isn't. But I still have a voice inside me that says "you cannot give a child everything he asks for all the time!" If I did, with him, I'd be spending over $100 a week on STUFF. Stuff he plays with for an hour and then never touches again. Where should the limit be?>>>>>>
The limit should be that if you cannot afford you cannot get it. Apps on the Ipad are awesome!!! There are thousands of free ones. Kids learn tons from it. If you can afford them and you are not seeing them as learning tools for your child than you need to deschool way more. Would you looking for limits if he was asking for books. Set a budged that you can afford and give him the apps you can. Be more proactive. Find him free apps. There a thousands of free apps or apps that start out free and you can play until a certain part. That is the kind of apps I get! My kids are happy. My son tries out games all the time!!!!!! WHy No "not today"?? Research for an app that is similar, for the free version!!!!!! You are only seeing it as buy or do not buy but there is so much more you can do. Because I have always research prices with my kids they are really savvy! They even research themselves. You would be impressed how my 6 year old can go to Amazon and
Ebay and research prices on what she wants , compare shop and save to her lists! And she does not even read fluently yet. She is pretty amazing. When she was 4 she wanted to buy a lot of things. We would go to goodwill with a budget and shop on the 50% off toy day! Fill up the cart and decided which ones she could buy with that money! Today she will go with me and buy nothing! Giving her , and my son, everything I could afford that they wanted did not turned them into children that want and want and want everything they see. They are the opposite of that!!!!
<<<<<
* He tries to hit his sister / calls her names no matter what the issue at hand may be. Small frustrations = big deals for him. I do protect her and usually catch him before it happens, but it happens often. I feel sorry for her...she wants to be his friend and play, but he's so mean to her all the time.>>>>>>>
Keep protecting her but also protect him from frustrations!!!!! He is 4 and needs it too!! It is pretty hard for a little guy. MY son used to get really frustrated at that age. I was proactive and protected him too.
<<<<<<<* He wants to play games with us as a family, but can NOT stand to lose. On days that we don't want to deal with a melt down, we try to help him win. On days we are stronger, we try to play right and talk to him throughout the crying and playing that winning isn't the object...being together as a family and playing together is what matters...that not everyone can win all the time. You know, real life stuff. He can't STAND losing in any capacity. He wants to play the game (requests to even!), but he doesn't want to lose...even if he's behind in the game with still a chance of winning, he's miserable). If he's playing catch with daddy and drops the football, it's a tragedy and then he doesn't want to play anymore. So, he goes and does something easy or plays iPad by himself.>>>>>>>>
He is 4! Let him win! In my house when the kids where little we let them play by their rules and win! When Gigi was about that age she would move her pieces ahead of ours and by them my son who was older would laugh!!!! Because he learned that is was sweet to let the other one win! As they get older they get more serious about games. At 4 you are expecting way too much! WHY can;t he always win???
<<<<* The moment anything gets even a little challenging, he gives up. Doesn't want to do it and says he's tired. Then, he goes to play iPad somewhere off by himself.>>>>
He is 4! Are you worried that he will never do anything that requires work in life ?? Are you calling him lazy or not a go getter? you are projecting way to much on this 4 year old child.
<<See the pattern here?>>
What I do not see is you becoming his partner and being proactive and helping him out .
<<<<I realize a lot of this is our fault from going from Love & Logic methods (think Supernanny) to more of an unstructured unschooling/attachment parenting life. I want to practice attachment parenting with him and be close, but I feel I've started too late, he's drifted from me...he doesn't want to be close because my frustration with his temperament has pushed him away. I have even pushed him away in times I knew he needed me because I was so frustrated with how he was acting either toward his sister or another child. And times that I have gone to him when he was sad/upset, as soon as he calms down, he asks me for the "thing" (whatever it may be) that he wanted that started the meltdown...e.g. cookie, treat, movie, game, etc.) It's as if he feigns needing affection to get what he wants...although I know that sounds crazy. I hope I don't sound like a horrible mother. I really want to help our situation.>>>>>>>>
I think you are still thinking a lot that way!
If I give him what he wants then...
You are still seeing him as a child that needs "structure" which means punishment if he is not doing exactly what you want. You are still seeing him as manipulative!
If you give him then then he would walk all over you.
<<<<Is there anything I can do to mend this relationship before it's too late? Please help...>>>>
Be his partner, give him the cookie , find the apps that are free and what you can afford ( would you say not to a book?), be proactive and protect him from frustrations, be sweet and nice to him, play with him, let him win, laugh with him.He is still a very little guy and he needs a loving mom! See him with loving eyes.See his meltdowns are him having unmet needs.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<<<<<<<<* Whining incessantly until he gets whatever it is he wants. A cookie. Candy. Or, with the iPad, he expects that no matter how often, how expensive, etc. it is, he should get whatever game he is requesting...even if it's out of his league (adult game, etc.) I have put restrictions on him buying things on the iPad, but the ads from his other games continue to pop up, he sees them and asks me about them. I either buy it or he ends up upset because I say "no, not today" and explain that we are cutting expenses, etc., and that we cannot buy things whenever we feel like it. Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it isn't. But I still have a voice inside me that says "you cannot give a child everything he asks for all the time!" If I did, with him, I'd be spending over $100 a week on STUFF. Stuff he plays with for an hour and then never touches again. Where should the limit be?>>>>>>
The limit should be that if you cannot afford you cannot get it. Apps on the Ipad are awesome!!! There are thousands of free ones. Kids learn tons from it. If you can afford them and you are not seeing them as learning tools for your child than you need to deschool way more. Would you looking for limits if he was asking for books. Set a budged that you can afford and give him the apps you can. Be more proactive. Find him free apps. There a thousands of free apps or apps that start out free and you can play until a certain part. That is the kind of apps I get! My kids are happy. My son tries out games all the time!!!!!! WHy No "not today"?? Research for an app that is similar, for the free version!!!!!! You are only seeing it as buy or do not buy but there is so much more you can do. Because I have always research prices with my kids they are really savvy! They even research themselves. You would be impressed how my 6 year old can go to Amazon and
Ebay and research prices on what she wants , compare shop and save to her lists! And she does not even read fluently yet. She is pretty amazing. When she was 4 she wanted to buy a lot of things. We would go to goodwill with a budget and shop on the 50% off toy day! Fill up the cart and decided which ones she could buy with that money! Today she will go with me and buy nothing! Giving her , and my son, everything I could afford that they wanted did not turned them into children that want and want and want everything they see. They are the opposite of that!!!!
<<<<<
* He tries to hit his sister / calls her names no matter what the issue at hand may be. Small frustrations = big deals for him. I do protect her and usually catch him before it happens, but it happens often. I feel sorry for her...she wants to be his friend and play, but he's so mean to her all the time.>>>>>>>
Keep protecting her but also protect him from frustrations!!!!! He is 4 and needs it too!! It is pretty hard for a little guy. MY son used to get really frustrated at that age. I was proactive and protected him too.
<<<<<<<* He wants to play games with us as a family, but can NOT stand to lose. On days that we don't want to deal with a melt down, we try to help him win. On days we are stronger, we try to play right and talk to him throughout the crying and playing that winning isn't the object...being together as a family and playing together is what matters...that not everyone can win all the time. You know, real life stuff. He can't STAND losing in any capacity. He wants to play the game (requests to even!), but he doesn't want to lose...even if he's behind in the game with still a chance of winning, he's miserable). If he's playing catch with daddy and drops the football, it's a tragedy and then he doesn't want to play anymore. So, he goes and does something easy or plays iPad by himself.>>>>>>>>
He is 4! Let him win! In my house when the kids where little we let them play by their rules and win! When Gigi was about that age she would move her pieces ahead of ours and by them my son who was older would laugh!!!! Because he learned that is was sweet to let the other one win! As they get older they get more serious about games. At 4 you are expecting way too much! WHY can;t he always win???
<<<<* The moment anything gets even a little challenging, he gives up. Doesn't want to do it and says he's tired. Then, he goes to play iPad somewhere off by himself.>>>>
He is 4! Are you worried that he will never do anything that requires work in life ?? Are you calling him lazy or not a go getter? you are projecting way to much on this 4 year old child.
<<See the pattern here?>>
What I do not see is you becoming his partner and being proactive and helping him out .
<<<<I realize a lot of this is our fault from going from Love & Logic methods (think Supernanny) to more of an unstructured unschooling/attachment parenting life. I want to practice attachment parenting with him and be close, but I feel I've started too late, he's drifted from me...he doesn't want to be close because my frustration with his temperament has pushed him away. I have even pushed him away in times I knew he needed me because I was so frustrated with how he was acting either toward his sister or another child. And times that I have gone to him when he was sad/upset, as soon as he calms down, he asks me for the "thing" (whatever it may be) that he wanted that started the meltdown...e.g. cookie, treat, movie, game, etc.) It's as if he feigns needing affection to get what he wants...although I know that sounds crazy. I hope I don't sound like a horrible mother. I really want to help our situation.>>>>>>>>
I think you are still thinking a lot that way!
If I give him what he wants then...
You are still seeing him as a child that needs "structure" which means punishment if he is not doing exactly what you want. You are still seeing him as manipulative!
If you give him then then he would walk all over you.
<<<<Is there anything I can do to mend this relationship before it's too late? Please help...>>>>
Be his partner, give him the cookie , find the apps that are free and what you can afford ( would you say not to a book?), be proactive and protect him from frustrations, be sweet and nice to him, play with him, let him win, laugh with him.He is still a very little guy and he needs a loving mom! See him with loving eyes.See his meltdowns are him having unmet needs.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***Why does he need to wait for those?***
Can you put the cookies and candy where he can reach them himself?
Is he getting hungry? Is he whining for cookies because he needs food, not necessarily cookies? Make sure you’re taking food and snacks to him frequently. Sandra’s page on monkey platter will give you ideas: http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Can you put the cookies and candy where he can reach them himself?
Is he getting hungry? Is he whining for cookies because he needs food, not necessarily cookies? Make sure you’re taking food and snacks to him frequently. Sandra’s page on monkey platter will give you ideas: http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Your son won't be four for more than a year. Don't be angry with him.
What' below might seem harsh, but it's not as harsh as what you first wrote about your son. At the end are links that have helped many other people, and have the experiences of many people. Please do read a little, try a little, wait a while and watch.
-=- I am frustrated and angry that he is not understanding that mom & dad have things/time to be respected as well. It never sinks in. It's been almost a year of transition for us (that's when I removed him from preschool, so the "deschooling" should be done by now).-=-
Really? SHOULD be done? Deschooling doesn't apply to a four year old. His academic learning hadn't even begun. He wasn't old enough to have been required by anyone's government to go to school at the age of two or three.
It NEVER sinks in?
You expect a four year old to understand that mom and dad have time that should be respected? He's too young.
Three children in this small space of time is a hardship for all concerned. But it's not his fault he's not still your baby. Have compassion for that. You're crowding him out of the nest. Let him leave in his own time. He's needing remedial mothering, and I doubt you want to put him out for adoption, so you're the one who will need to provide it. The sooner he feels content and secure, the sooner he can begin to be helpful and a little more mature.
-=-I am planning on reading The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff for my next child-=-
You don't have time to read that, and it's not sufficiently helpful for its length. Here's what to take from it: You'll have three babies. Keep them, all of them, as near as they want to be, as much as you can manage to do that. Let them see what you do--folding clothes, making food, cleaning up. You might not get to do much more than that for a long time.
You don't get time to yourself for a few years.
There's a link on attachment parenting below.
-=-Some of the other things going on that frustrate me...and no matter how I go into each day (positive or not), I always end up being upset with him and frustrated with myself for being angry/upset. Every. Day.-=-
Your post is full of "always" and "never."
-=-* The moment anything gets even a little challenging, he gives up. Doesn't want to do it and says he's tired. Then, he goes to play iPad somewhere off by himself.
-=-See the pattern here?-=-
I do. You have unrealistic expectations and a harshness toward him.
You seem to be giving up because parenting is getting a little challenging. You're tired, and angry, and frustrated. He's probably reacting to that in very natural, human ways. And if he's genetically like you, one of you needs to stop that feedback loop. Be his partner. Take a gracious loss for the team, because he's too young to do that.
You see yourself as weak if you are patient with him. You think losing a game is "real life stuff."
-=- If he's playing catch with daddy and drops the football, it's a tragedy and then he doesn't want to play anymore. -=-
Things like that don't happen in a peaceful, patient moment as they will in a critical, rushed one. Does his dad expect him to learn to be as happy with dropping the ball as catching it, as you seem to expect him (at four, perhaps barely four) to be a good sport about board games?
-=-being together as a family and playing together is what matters...that not everyone can win all the time-=-
If you believe the first part, why care about the second part?
Playing doesn't require rules, or winners, or losers. You could play WITH a game, or you could play with things like magnets, a building set, pattern blocks, a puzzle, that don't have rules.
These will help you, if you can read them a bit at a time and put them into practice. They will help more than The Continuum Concept would. You already know that holdinga baby is better than putting him down and that children can learn from being around adults.
http://sandradodd.com/moment
http://sandradodd.com/breathing
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet (because of your assurance that he would spend $100 a week on iPad games if you let him)
http://sandradodd.com/attachmentparenting
that link above has a graph that originally was made to go with this:
http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely
and maybe later:
http://sandradodd.com/siblings
If unschooling doesn't seem to be better for your son than school was, there's probably a school right in your neighborhood. It's not his job to make unschooling work for you, though. If you can do better than school that's great! If not, maybe school would be better for him. But he needs variety and attention and patience. Maybe you could afford to hire a mother's helper to play with him or with his sister while you play with the other one or take care of the baby. Another older child (10 or 12 or so) to come over and play for $4 an hour or so might be an advantage for all involved.
This is a lot to put out at once, but things have gotten dangerous at your house, and children can't learn in a dangerous atmosphere.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What' below might seem harsh, but it's not as harsh as what you first wrote about your son. At the end are links that have helped many other people, and have the experiences of many people. Please do read a little, try a little, wait a while and watch.
-=- I am frustrated and angry that he is not understanding that mom & dad have things/time to be respected as well. It never sinks in. It's been almost a year of transition for us (that's when I removed him from preschool, so the "deschooling" should be done by now).-=-
Really? SHOULD be done? Deschooling doesn't apply to a four year old. His academic learning hadn't even begun. He wasn't old enough to have been required by anyone's government to go to school at the age of two or three.
It NEVER sinks in?
You expect a four year old to understand that mom and dad have time that should be respected? He's too young.
Three children in this small space of time is a hardship for all concerned. But it's not his fault he's not still your baby. Have compassion for that. You're crowding him out of the nest. Let him leave in his own time. He's needing remedial mothering, and I doubt you want to put him out for adoption, so you're the one who will need to provide it. The sooner he feels content and secure, the sooner he can begin to be helpful and a little more mature.
-=-I am planning on reading The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff for my next child-=-
You don't have time to read that, and it's not sufficiently helpful for its length. Here's what to take from it: You'll have three babies. Keep them, all of them, as near as they want to be, as much as you can manage to do that. Let them see what you do--folding clothes, making food, cleaning up. You might not get to do much more than that for a long time.
You don't get time to yourself for a few years.
There's a link on attachment parenting below.
-=-Some of the other things going on that frustrate me...and no matter how I go into each day (positive or not), I always end up being upset with him and frustrated with myself for being angry/upset. Every. Day.-=-
Your post is full of "always" and "never."
-=-* The moment anything gets even a little challenging, he gives up. Doesn't want to do it and says he's tired. Then, he goes to play iPad somewhere off by himself.
-=-See the pattern here?-=-
I do. You have unrealistic expectations and a harshness toward him.
You seem to be giving up because parenting is getting a little challenging. You're tired, and angry, and frustrated. He's probably reacting to that in very natural, human ways. And if he's genetically like you, one of you needs to stop that feedback loop. Be his partner. Take a gracious loss for the team, because he's too young to do that.
You see yourself as weak if you are patient with him. You think losing a game is "real life stuff."
-=- If he's playing catch with daddy and drops the football, it's a tragedy and then he doesn't want to play anymore. -=-
Things like that don't happen in a peaceful, patient moment as they will in a critical, rushed one. Does his dad expect him to learn to be as happy with dropping the ball as catching it, as you seem to expect him (at four, perhaps barely four) to be a good sport about board games?
-=-being together as a family and playing together is what matters...that not everyone can win all the time-=-
If you believe the first part, why care about the second part?
Playing doesn't require rules, or winners, or losers. You could play WITH a game, or you could play with things like magnets, a building set, pattern blocks, a puzzle, that don't have rules.
These will help you, if you can read them a bit at a time and put them into practice. They will help more than The Continuum Concept would. You already know that holdinga baby is better than putting him down and that children can learn from being around adults.
http://sandradodd.com/moment
http://sandradodd.com/breathing
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet (because of your assurance that he would spend $100 a week on iPad games if you let him)
http://sandradodd.com/attachmentparenting
that link above has a graph that originally was made to go with this:
http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely
and maybe later:
http://sandradodd.com/siblings
If unschooling doesn't seem to be better for your son than school was, there's probably a school right in your neighborhood. It's not his job to make unschooling work for you, though. If you can do better than school that's great! If not, maybe school would be better for him. But he needs variety and attention and patience. Maybe you could afford to hire a mother's helper to play with him or with his sister while you play with the other one or take care of the baby. Another older child (10 or 12 or so) to come over and play for $4 an hour or so might be an advantage for all involved.
This is a lot to put out at once, but things have gotten dangerous at your house, and children can't learn in a dangerous atmosphere.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert and Colleen
****Whining incessantly until he gets whatever it is he wants. A cookie.
Candy.****
****I either buy it or he ends up upset because I say "no, not today"****
****On days that we don't want to deal with a meltdown, we try to help him
win. On days we are stronger, we try to play right and talk to him
throughout the crying and playing that winning isn't the object...being
together as a family and playing together is what matters...that not
everyone can win all the time****
The broken Coke machine! I love the broken Coke machine theory - it goes
sort of like this -
When someone sees a soda machine, they naturally assume that if they put
their money in, a soda will come out. If they put their money in and a soda
always comes out, they'll return to the machine only when they definitely
want a soda since they know they're going to get one whenever they use the
machine.
If they put their money in a few times and the machine is totally broken and
a soda never comes out, they'll go and find another machine and stop wasting
their money on the one that never produces what they want (soda).
But if they put their money into a somewhat-broken machine and every once in
a while a soda comes out - not every time - but just often enough to give
them hope - something different happens.
Some people will give up and go find a machine that works every time,
because they don't want to chance losing their money even one more time.
But other people will keep putting money into that broken machine, figuring
it might work again - hoping it might work again - determined that if they
put the quarters in at the right angle or with the right timing or in some
special way, it'll work correctly and they'll get their goal (soda).
If your son is whining "until he gets whatever it is he wants" - if you're
letting him win games sometimes but not all the time - if you're saying yes
to apps in what seems (to him) to be a random way - you're a somewhat-broken
soda machine :-) and he's a child with an unlimited roll of quarters who is
really, really determined to get that soda to come out.
Fix the machine.
Let him win games - every time. Don't try to teach him a lesson in losing
or good sportsmanship or anything else. He wants to win - he needs to win -
so let him.
When he asks for a cookie or a candy, give him what he wants, or respond to
him right away with an alternative or another offer or a subject-change or a
distraction or a little song while you finish up changing the 2-year old's
diaper (or.. or. or.) the *first* time he asks. Don't let him get to the
point where whining is the only way to get your attention or to get a
response. Don't let him escalate to the point where you get frustrated and
say "OH FINE - HERE!!!" because I promise that cookie or candy won't even
taste very good at that point anyway.
Decide how much you can spend on apps - and then help him understand that,
little by little. Talk about how much this one costs and how much he'd have
left afterward and how many more that might buy. Make lists or charts or
such, if he's visual that way. Get a jar and put coins and your extra
change in it and help him take the coins out and add them up to the cost of
an app he wants - as another way of making a visual representation of how
much more he has available to spend before he needs to wait til there's
enough coins in there so he can buy more (but be generous - don't let his
jar sit empty :-)). Fill his devices up with free apps. Put new free apps
on *before* he asks for more paid ones - so he's excited to see what's there
waiting for him in the morning when he picks up the iPad instead of starting
his day with a quest for More.
Do everything you can to keep the Coke machine that is you working 100% of
the time. He's not broken - don't try to fix him. Fix his world for him
:-)
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Candy.****
****I either buy it or he ends up upset because I say "no, not today"****
****On days that we don't want to deal with a meltdown, we try to help him
win. On days we are stronger, we try to play right and talk to him
throughout the crying and playing that winning isn't the object...being
together as a family and playing together is what matters...that not
everyone can win all the time****
The broken Coke machine! I love the broken Coke machine theory - it goes
sort of like this -
When someone sees a soda machine, they naturally assume that if they put
their money in, a soda will come out. If they put their money in and a soda
always comes out, they'll return to the machine only when they definitely
want a soda since they know they're going to get one whenever they use the
machine.
If they put their money in a few times and the machine is totally broken and
a soda never comes out, they'll go and find another machine and stop wasting
their money on the one that never produces what they want (soda).
But if they put their money into a somewhat-broken machine and every once in
a while a soda comes out - not every time - but just often enough to give
them hope - something different happens.
Some people will give up and go find a machine that works every time,
because they don't want to chance losing their money even one more time.
But other people will keep putting money into that broken machine, figuring
it might work again - hoping it might work again - determined that if they
put the quarters in at the right angle or with the right timing or in some
special way, it'll work correctly and they'll get their goal (soda).
If your son is whining "until he gets whatever it is he wants" - if you're
letting him win games sometimes but not all the time - if you're saying yes
to apps in what seems (to him) to be a random way - you're a somewhat-broken
soda machine :-) and he's a child with an unlimited roll of quarters who is
really, really determined to get that soda to come out.
Fix the machine.
Let him win games - every time. Don't try to teach him a lesson in losing
or good sportsmanship or anything else. He wants to win - he needs to win -
so let him.
When he asks for a cookie or a candy, give him what he wants, or respond to
him right away with an alternative or another offer or a subject-change or a
distraction or a little song while you finish up changing the 2-year old's
diaper (or.. or. or.) the *first* time he asks. Don't let him get to the
point where whining is the only way to get your attention or to get a
response. Don't let him escalate to the point where you get frustrated and
say "OH FINE - HERE!!!" because I promise that cookie or candy won't even
taste very good at that point anyway.
Decide how much you can spend on apps - and then help him understand that,
little by little. Talk about how much this one costs and how much he'd have
left afterward and how many more that might buy. Make lists or charts or
such, if he's visual that way. Get a jar and put coins and your extra
change in it and help him take the coins out and add them up to the cost of
an app he wants - as another way of making a visual representation of how
much more he has available to spend before he needs to wait til there's
enough coins in there so he can buy more (but be generous - don't let his
jar sit empty :-)). Fill his devices up with free apps. Put new free apps
on *before* he asks for more paid ones - so he's excited to see what's there
waiting for him in the morning when he picks up the iPad instead of starting
his day with a quest for More.
Do everything you can to keep the Coke machine that is you working 100% of
the time. He's not broken - don't try to fix him. Fix his world for him
:-)
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***Some people will give up and go find a machine that works every time,***
And the thing about a four year old trying to cope with a broken machine is that he *cant* go anywhere else to get what he needs. He’s powerless. He can only keep trying things that may have seemed to work in the past to get him what he wanted. A child’s needs being met shouldn’t be, or feel like, a matter of random chance. It shouldn’t be a gamble to be four.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And the thing about a four year old trying to cope with a broken machine is that he *cant* go anywhere else to get what he needs. He’s powerless. He can only keep trying things that may have seemed to work in the past to get him what he wanted. A child’s needs being met shouldn’t be, or feel like, a matter of random chance. It shouldn’t be a gamble to be four.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I have a question about iPad apps. What's the most expensive one a kid might want?
My husband is working for Bendix King on some kind of real-time thing for pilots that shows everything they might need to know about airports and airspace and weather and I don't know what all. I don't guess that's at all cheap, but plants vs. zombies at $6.99 is the most expensive thing I've bought for iPad, and it was worth much more.
Some of the games we play here lately have free versions and then some paid at $1.99 or 99¢, and that is less than a greeting card, and Keith, Marty and I have played them for MANY hours. Those games would be easy enough for a four year old with spatial skills, or to play as a two-player game (take turns, and let him have the easy plays):
Flow Free
Flip Pix Art
Flip Pix Jigsaw
HexLogic
They're all by Gabysoft except for Flow Free which is by Big Duck games. It might help to put the maker in when you search.
But at those prices (free and $2), $100 worth of iPad games would be over 50 games, and that's not a bad deal. :-)
That child shouldn't need to be playing iPad alone. Play with him!!
Sandra
My husband is working for Bendix King on some kind of real-time thing for pilots that shows everything they might need to know about airports and airspace and weather and I don't know what all. I don't guess that's at all cheap, but plants vs. zombies at $6.99 is the most expensive thing I've bought for iPad, and it was worth much more.
Some of the games we play here lately have free versions and then some paid at $1.99 or 99¢, and that is less than a greeting card, and Keith, Marty and I have played them for MANY hours. Those games would be easy enough for a four year old with spatial skills, or to play as a two-player game (take turns, and let him have the easy plays):
Flow Free
Flip Pix Art
Flip Pix Jigsaw
HexLogic
They're all by Gabysoft except for Flow Free which is by Big Duck games. It might help to put the maker in when you search.
But at those prices (free and $2), $100 worth of iPad games would be over 50 games, and that's not a bad deal. :-)
That child shouldn't need to be playing iPad alone. Play with him!!
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Joyce wrote a gem, as she often does in response to this:
===========================
Instead of waiting until he asks and then saying "NO, NOT today" (and a day is a long time for a four year old), say before you go into the store "We just need to grab dinner and hurry home" or "We're not in a hurry; you can pick something out," then he's part of what's going on, and can behave accourdingly. But don't just arbitrarily say no. Think ahead. Think way ahead.
When a teen has such a bad relationship with his parents that the only way he feels he's whole, alive and a winner is when he's doing things they wouldn't let him do if they were there, the parents have created a wild, law-breaking, teen. Lawyers and counsellors cost a LOT of money. They cost WAY more than candy and iPad games.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I either buy it or he ends up upset because I say "no, not today"To him whether you say yes or no seems completely random. He has no control over when he can have a game and when he can't. So he asks for way more than what he needs. It's like playing the lottery. He needs to ask for 10 things to get 1.
===========================
Instead of waiting until he asks and then saying "NO, NOT today" (and a day is a long time for a four year old), say before you go into the store "We just need to grab dinner and hurry home" or "We're not in a hurry; you can pick something out," then he's part of what's going on, and can behave accourdingly. But don't just arbitrarily say no. Think ahead. Think way ahead.
When a teen has such a bad relationship with his parents that the only way he feels he's whole, alive and a winner is when he's doing things they wouldn't let him do if they were there, the parents have created a wild, law-breaking, teen. Lawyers and counsellors cost a LOT of money. They cost WAY more than candy and iPad games.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The only way a person learns about respect is by feeling the value of being respected. Are you showing respect to him when he needs you and you get angry and frustrated? Learning about respect takes just as much time as it takes. It�s not something four year olds typically understand. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/respect/dodd
and more here:
http://sandradodd.com/respect
I talked about freedom more than I do now, in that top article. When I wrote about it there, I was writing about choice, within the home, right with the parents there. Unfortunately, some unschooling "writers" have taken it away and gone too far, where they seem to think being unschoolers gives their children "freedom" at other people's houses, and in malls, and museums. So if you read "freedom" in something I wrote, I mean the ability to make a lot of real-life choices for himself. And his choices might be wanting attention and contact. That should be expected. He's a young mammal. Mammals live in dens, and sleep touching. A mother fox doesn't dig four or five little holes and put a a kitfox in each one at night. They stay with their mom until they venture out on their own.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://sandradodd.com/respect/dodd
and more here:
http://sandradodd.com/respect
I talked about freedom more than I do now, in that top article. When I wrote about it there, I was writing about choice, within the home, right with the parents there. Unfortunately, some unschooling "writers" have taken it away and gone too far, where they seem to think being unschoolers gives their children "freedom" at other people's houses, and in malls, and museums. So if you read "freedom" in something I wrote, I mean the ability to make a lot of real-life choices for himself. And his choices might be wanting attention and contact. That should be expected. He's a young mammal. Mammals live in dens, and sleep touching. A mother fox doesn't dig four or five little holes and put a a kitfox in each one at night. They stay with their mom until they venture out on their own.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If your son is whining "until he gets whatever it is he wants" - if you're
letting him win games sometimes but not all the time - if you're saying yes
to apps in what seems (to him) to be a random way - you're a somewhat-broken
soda machine :-) and he's a child with an unlimited roll of quarters who is
really, really determined to get that soda to come out.
-=-Fix the machine.-=-
When I was in high school there was a coke machine in a hallway that had no doors or windows, so teachers or administrators didn't notice the increased excitement. The machine wasn't working right, but nobody reported it for a couple of days because it had turned into a glorious gambling machine. You might not get a coke. You MIGHT get two. You might get one. But best of all, you might get the quarters others had put in trying to get a coke earlier.
That's one of my best memories of high school. But then they "fixed it."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
letting him win games sometimes but not all the time - if you're saying yes
to apps in what seems (to him) to be a random way - you're a somewhat-broken
soda machine :-) and he's a child with an unlimited roll of quarters who is
really, really determined to get that soda to come out.
-=-Fix the machine.-=-
When I was in high school there was a coke machine in a hallway that had no doors or windows, so teachers or administrators didn't notice the increased excitement. The machine wasn't working right, but nobody reported it for a couple of days because it had turned into a glorious gambling machine. You might not get a coke. You MIGHT get two. You might get one. But best of all, you might get the quarters others had put in trying to get a coke earlier.
That's one of my best memories of high school. But then they "fixed it."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jen Youst
I am soaking in all of the information and comments. The ones that hit me
the hardest hurt the most. Many of them have made me feel uncapable of
unschooling my children. I WANT to, desperately....but perhaps I am not cut
out for it. There is more soul-searching to be done. As much as I want to
be one of those moms who can do this, I am not sure I am. I know that is
ok, but it is not what I want for my kids. I want better. I will take much
of this advice to heart and begin making the changes. I am trying...I am
really trying.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the hardest hurt the most. Many of them have made me feel uncapable of
unschooling my children. I WANT to, desperately....but perhaps I am not cut
out for it. There is more soul-searching to be done. As much as I want to
be one of those moms who can do this, I am not sure I am. I know that is
ok, but it is not what I want for my kids. I want better. I will take much
of this advice to heart and begin making the changes. I am trying...I am
really trying.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am soaking in all of the information and comments. The ones that hit me
the hardest hurt the most. Many of them have made me feel uncapable of
unschooling my children. I WANT to, desperately....but perhaps I am not cut
out for it. There is more soul-searching to be done. As much as I want to
be one of those moms who can do this, I am not sure I am. I know that is
ok, but it is not what I want for my kids. I want better. I will take much
of this advice to heart and begin making the changes. I am trying...I am
really trying.-=-
This is all about you, and reassurances for us.
Unless you change your perspective to make it all about your son, you won't change.
Here are some stories of other people who thought they had it, and then got it some more. Those might help, too (after the others, though--we gave you a LOT to think about, I know).
http://sandradodd.com/change/
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the hardest hurt the most. Many of them have made me feel uncapable of
unschooling my children. I WANT to, desperately....but perhaps I am not cut
out for it. There is more soul-searching to be done. As much as I want to
be one of those moms who can do this, I am not sure I am. I know that is
ok, but it is not what I want for my kids. I want better. I will take much
of this advice to heart and begin making the changes. I am trying...I am
really trying.-=-
This is all about you, and reassurances for us.
Unless you change your perspective to make it all about your son, you won't change.
Here are some stories of other people who thought they had it, and then got it some more. Those might help, too (after the others, though--we gave you a LOT to think about, I know).
http://sandradodd.com/change/
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***I WANT to, desperately....but perhaps I am not cut
out for it.***
***If he's playing catch with daddy and drops the football, it's a tragedy and then he doesn't want to play anymore.***
Do these two people sound at all alike to you? : )
Everyone who ever made unschooling work really well in their family had to try really hard. The wanting is only part of it. The doing is harder and it takes lots of doing. This list has a lot of people who got through the really hard stuff. I don’t know any mom who has no regrets. I don’t know anyone who didn’t have some obstacle in thinking to get around. The beautiful thing for you is that your kids are so young and you don’t have years of harsh parenting to try to undo. You have desire and time on your side. You have help here if you want it.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
out for it.***
***If he's playing catch with daddy and drops the football, it's a tragedy and then he doesn't want to play anymore.***
Do these two people sound at all alike to you? : )
Everyone who ever made unschooling work really well in their family had to try really hard. The wanting is only part of it. The doing is harder and it takes lots of doing. This list has a lot of people who got through the really hard stuff. I don’t know any mom who has no regrets. I don’t know anyone who didn’t have some obstacle in thinking to get around. The beautiful thing for you is that your kids are so young and you don’t have years of harsh parenting to try to undo. You have desire and time on your side. You have help here if you want it.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Trista Teeter
==Lawyers and counsellors cost a LOT of money. They cost WAY more than candy and iPad games.==
One thing that helps us when our kids ask about making a purchase is to think about why we work. We work to get money. Yes, it's for food and shelter and bills. We were big into paying down debt and Save Save Save a year or so ago. And while it was great seeing our savings grow and our debts shrink, we were saying No to so many things. To save. To have money to spend later. On our kids. The thought hit us, what's so great about later?? Why not now?? Not only did it help us shift our focus, but it helped us see the joy in our kids (and ourselves!) deciding on purchases and enjoying those purchases, instead of feeling guilty for not saving/paying off debt faster.
Trista
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] My Anger & Frustration with my son ...I can't get over it.
Joyce wrote a gem, as she often does in response to this:
===========================
Instead of waiting until he asks and then saying "NO, NOT today" (and a day is a long time for a four year old), say before you go into the store "We just need to grab dinner and hurry home" or "We're not in a hurry; you can pick something out," then he's part of what's going on, and can behave accourdingly. But don't just arbitrarily say no. Think ahead. Think way ahead.
When a teen has such a bad relationship with his parents that the only way he feels he's whole, alive and a winner is when he's doing things they wouldn't let him do if they were there, the parents have created a wild, law-breaking, teen. Lawyers and counsellors cost a LOT of money. They cost WAY more than candy and iPad games.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One thing that helps us when our kids ask about making a purchase is to think about why we work. We work to get money. Yes, it's for food and shelter and bills. We were big into paying down debt and Save Save Save a year or so ago. And while it was great seeing our savings grow and our debts shrink, we were saying No to so many things. To save. To have money to spend later. On our kids. The thought hit us, what's so great about later?? Why not now?? Not only did it help us shift our focus, but it helped us see the joy in our kids (and ourselves!) deciding on purchases and enjoying those purchases, instead of feeling guilty for not saving/paying off debt faster.
Trista
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] My Anger & Frustration with my son ...I can't get over it.
Joyce wrote a gem, as she often does in response to this:
> I either buy it or he ends up upset because I say "no, not today"To him whether you say yes or no seems completely random. He has no control over when he can have a game and when he can't. So he asks for way more than what he needs. It's like playing the lottery. He needs to ask for 10 things to get 1.
===========================
Instead of waiting until he asks and then saying "NO, NOT today" (and a day is a long time for a four year old), say before you go into the store "We just need to grab dinner and hurry home" or "We're not in a hurry; you can pick something out," then he's part of what's going on, and can behave accourdingly. But don't just arbitrarily say no. Think ahead. Think way ahead.
When a teen has such a bad relationship with his parents that the only way he feels he's whole, alive and a winner is when he's doing things they wouldn't let him do if they were there, the parents have created a wild, law-breaking, teen. Lawyers and counsellors cost a LOT of money. They cost WAY more than candy and iPad games.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
Often when they're at their worst is when they need you the most. :-)
Another way to think of it - "He isn't giving you a hard time, he is HAVING
a hard time."
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
That child shouldn't need to be playing iPad alone. Play with him!!
And watch him play. Watch with attentiveness and involvement...so that you
squeal and gasp and groan and giggle right along with him as he plays
because you're as into it as he is. If you are fully present and mindful
while watching, then you can talk about the game he just played. That's
where closeness comes from - shared experience. You can say, "That was cool
how you got all those whatever's lined up." "I thought those whatsits had
you." Stuff like that. That's connection.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
>> You don't get time to yourself for a few years.It helped me so much to realize that when my kids were little - that I wouldn't have much time to myself (seconds, minutes, maybe) and that I wouldn't get much of anything done. My first reaction to those ideas was dismay, but I found that when I shifted my thinking a little, my stress level went way down, and I was able to get my own needs met better than before. I learned to meet my own needs Differently - in little bites rather than big chunks, and by seeing that some of my needs were being met By being a sweeter, gentler mommy.
---Meredith
alma
When you go from structure to unschooling it can seem as if you go from having a reasonably well behaved child to having a demanding monster, where the more he gets the more he wants. This is what it seemed like for me. But the more I understood and truly lived unschooling the more I got where I was wrong. If a child is only allowed a snack at 11am, or after tidy-up or whatever then anytime he asks he will be reminded it's not the right time and he will get pretty used to the idea. If however he can have a snack not just at a fixed time like 11am or after tidy-up or whatever then he will ask whenever he wants one. If sometimes his request is met with "of course sweetie, what would you like? and sometimes with "just a minute can't you see I'm just loading the washing machine" or "not again, I just got you something ten minutes ago" THAT system is not so easy to figure out at all. And he is expected to have vastly more skills than the child who is simply told that it's not the right time.
Is your husband completely on board with attachment parenting and unschooling? If not I suspect it will be very difficult. If you have three small children AND a husband feeling like he's not getting a look in you are in danger of feeling even more hard done by. If you feel you are doing it all it will be even harder. If you feel you cannot tell him how exhausted you are for fear of being criticised for bringing it on yourself it will be even harder. With three very young children you will need to be a good team.
If your husband IS on board, do you co-sleep as a family? This was the best single thing (though there were thousands of other things too) I did to repair the connection with my own children (5 and 2 at the time). We spent a lot of time in bed - sleeping, reading, listening, pillow-fighting etc. And we spent a lot of time at home, where in amongst the constant domestic chaos there was plenty of opportunity for connecting cuddles and doing stuff together (anything - mundane everyday things).
Your son is only four. He may be the eldest of three to you but I think you'll have very different expectations of four year olds when your youngest is four.
Alison
DS1(10) and DS2(7)
Is your husband completely on board with attachment parenting and unschooling? If not I suspect it will be very difficult. If you have three small children AND a husband feeling like he's not getting a look in you are in danger of feeling even more hard done by. If you feel you are doing it all it will be even harder. If you feel you cannot tell him how exhausted you are for fear of being criticised for bringing it on yourself it will be even harder. With three very young children you will need to be a good team.
If your husband IS on board, do you co-sleep as a family? This was the best single thing (though there were thousands of other things too) I did to repair the connection with my own children (5 and 2 at the time). We spent a lot of time in bed - sleeping, reading, listening, pillow-fighting etc. And we spent a lot of time at home, where in amongst the constant domestic chaos there was plenty of opportunity for connecting cuddles and doing stuff together (anything - mundane everyday things).
Your son is only four. He may be the eldest of three to you but I think you'll have very different expectations of four year olds when your youngest is four.
Alison
DS1(10) and DS2(7)
--- In [email protected], "Jen" <jenyoust@...> wrote:
>
> I am at a standstill about how to go about communicating and "being" with my 4-year old son. I also have a 2 year old daughter and am pregnant with #3 (due in Jan.) I am tired and frustrated.
>
> What I thought was a phase has proven to be more of a temperament thing. My son, through no fault of his own due to my changes in parenting throughout this last year, is whiny, lost, bored and confused. We used to have more structure in our home (when he was going to preschool 3x a week). Since I've let up on structure, added in fun things to do, given him free access to things like my computer/iPad/TV, etc., he has gotten progressively more demanding of me & my husband...expecting us, ALWAYS, to drop what we are doing to help him with something. I usually do it, and there are days I do it with a smile on my face and other days that I am frustrated and angry that he is not understanding that mom & dad have things/time to be respected as well. It never sinks in. It's been almost a year of transition for us (that's when I removed him from preschool, so the "deschooling" should be done by now).
>
> I am planning on reading The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff for my next child because I do believe that babywearing and co-sleeping has a huge affect on a child...with my son I would always put him down when he fell asleep as a baby...let him cry it out (anything Dr. Spock, you name it, I did it). I feel I let him down as an infant/baby. I wasn't aware of what I was doing then. I was just following other people's advice.
>
> Some of the other things going on that frustrate me...and no matter how I go into each day (positive or not), I always end up being upset with him and frustrated with myself for being angry/upset. Every. Day.
>
> * Whining incessantly until he gets whatever it is he wants. A cookie. Candy. Or, with the iPad, he expects that no matter how often, how expensive, etc. it is, he should get whatever game he is requesting...even if it's out of his league (adult game, etc.) I have put restrictions on him buying things on the iPad, but the ads from his other games continue to pop up, he sees them and asks me about them. I either buy it or he ends up upset because I say "no, not today" and explain that we are cutting expenses, etc., and that we cannot buy things whenever we feel like it. Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it isn't. But I still have a voice inside me that says "you cannot give a child everything he asks for all the time!" If I did, with him, I'd be spending over $100 a week on STUFF. Stuff he plays with for an hour and then never touches again. Where should the limit be?
>
> * He tries to hit his sister / calls her names no matter what the issue at hand may be. Small frustrations = big deals for him. I do protect her and usually catch him before it happens, but it happens often. I feel sorry for her...she wants to be his friend and play, but he's so mean to her all the time.
>
> * He wants to play games with us as a family, but can NOT stand to lose. On days that we don't want to deal with a melt down, we try to help him win. On days we are stronger, we try to play right and talk to him throughout the crying and playing that winning isn't the object...being together as a family and playing together is what matters...that not everyone can win all the time. You know, real life stuff. He can't STAND losing in any capacity. He wants to play the game (requests to even!), but he doesn't want to lose...even if he's behind in the game with still a chance of winning, he's miserable). If he's playing catch with daddy and drops the football, it's a tragedy and then he doesn't want to play anymore. So, he goes and does something easy or plays iPad by himself.
>
> * The moment anything gets even a little challenging, he gives up. Doesn't want to do it and says he's tired. Then, he goes to play iPad somewhere off by himself.
>
> See the pattern here?
>
> I realize a lot of this is our fault from going from Love & Logic methods (think Supernanny) to more of an unstructured unschooling/attachment parenting life. I want to practice attachment parenting with him and be close, but I feel I've started too late, he's drifted from me...he doesn't want to be close because my frustration with his temperament has pushed him away. I have even pushed him away in times I knew he needed me because I was so frustrated with how he was acting either toward his sister or another child. And times that I have gone to him when he was sad/upset, as soon as he calms down, he asks me for the "thing" (whatever it may be) that he wanted that started the meltdown...e.g. cookie, treat, movie, game, etc.) It's as if he feigns needing affection to get what he wants...although I know that sounds crazy. I hope I don't sound like a horrible mother. I really want to help our situation.
>
> Is there anything I can do to mend this relationship before it's too late? Please help...
>
> Thank you so much in advance. I really respect this group and look forward to your responses.
>
Rachel
I wanted to respond to this point. I wait until my daughter is asleep or busy and I download a few apps that I think she will be interested in ( some paid, but very often free ones too).
She loves waking up in the morning and discovering the new apps on there.
Rachel
She loves waking up in the morning and discovering the new apps on there.
Rachel
On 12 Dec 2012, at 20:06, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> Joyce wrote a gem, as she often does in response to this:
>> I either buy it or he ends up upset because I say "no, not today"
>
>
>
> Instead of waiting until he asks and then saying "NO, NOT today" (and a day is a long time for a four year old), say before you go into the store "We just need to grab dinner and hurry home" or "We're not in a hurry; you can pick something out," then he's part of what's going on, and can behave accourdingly. But don't just arbitrarily say no. Think ahead. Think way ahead.
>
> When a teen has such a bad relationship with his parents that the only way he feels he's whole, alive and a winner is when he's doing things they wouldn't let him do if they were there, the parents have created a wild, law-breaking, teen. Lawyers and counsellors cost a LOT of money. They cost WAY more than candy and iPad games.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Karen
>>>>> I WANT to, desperately....but perhaps I am not cut out for it.<<<<<I think it's really important to underline the point Deb was making, and that is that our children learn from our examples, so if we want to see change, we need to start with ourselves. If you want your son to persevere through the hard bits in life, he needs to see you doing so. If you want him to do so with some grace, you too need to model grace and patience in difficult times. And, you *can* choose to do it. It is a choice. It's not easy. You'll fail sometimes. Probably more times than not, at first. But it is doable.
My son used to whine. One day I said to him, "Can you pleeeease stoooop your whiiiining!" It was like I was in this BIG cave, and that whiney request of mine bounced right back at me, over and over and over :-) He looked up at me. Slowly, a smile crossed my face. I asked him, "Did you hear what I just did?" He shook his head, a little apprehensively. "I just asked you not to whine in a whiney voice! How silly is that?" He paused for a second. I could tell he was thinking about that. "I'm sorry," I said. "*I'm* going try to stop whining!" He smiled and we continued on with whatever we were doing. Once I stopped whining, he stopped whining. Listen to yourself. How do you talk to him, especially in your frustrated moments? Once you hear the whine, demands, rudeness, etc (whatever it is, and we all have something) in your own voice, it's becomes less difficult to change. Again, it just takes patience (with yourself) and perseverance. Making better choices each time you speak. It gets easier. It fuels confidence too - confidence that you can make good choices and be the kind of person you hope you children will look to for examples of how to live in the world.
Lastly, here's a little story about how I finally let go of that need for "me time." (In no way am I saying I became a martyr. I still took time to do the things I wanted to do, but, like Meredith, I learned to fit in many of my interests and activities wherever time and opportunity allowed. I became very creative about it too!) Anyway, my son always wanted someone to be with him at night, until he was about 7 or so. Now he's ten, and still likes company from time to time, especially if he's growing in some way. In those early years, I wanted him to fall asleep fast so that I could get on with the "me time." Well, Ethan likes to talk before he goes to sleep. Sometimes he likes to wrestle or tickle. Sometimes he likes to read. He used to like music. Not so much any more. Sometimes he just wants to nuzzle in and think. He doesn't just lay down and go to sleep. I would get so frustrated with that. One night I was laying with him. I was thinking about when I was a girl, and how much I wished someone would have been with me at night. It just wasn't my parents' way. Bedtime was bedtime. Their time was their time. So, as I nuzzled in with Ethan, I imagined I was him being held at night like *I* had always longed for. My goodness, what a wonderful feeling came over me. It was like a warm, wonderful light went on. All of a sudden I realized just how important my presence was to him. And, there was bonus! For every time I gave to Ethan in ways he needed, in ways I had too once needed but hadn't gotten, that little girl in me healed, and the mom I was becoming grew stronger and kinder and someone I could feel proud of.
So, don't give up yet. It might not be your path, it's true. But don't throw down the ball and walk away too fast. The effort is well worth it.
Jen
<<<<So, as I nuzzled in with Ethan, I imagined
I was him being held at night like *I* had always longed for. My goodness, what
a wonderful feeling came over me. It was like a warm, wonderful light went on.
All of a sudden I realized just how important my presence was to him. And,
there was bonus! For every time I gave to Ethan in ways he needed, in ways I
had too once needed but hadn't gotten, that little girl in me healed, and the
mom I was becoming grew stronger and kinder and someone I could feel proud of.
So, don't give up yet. It might not be your path, it's true. But don't throw
down the ball and walk away too fast. The effort is well worth it.>>>>>
This really hit home for me. I used to feel the same way as a child. Perhaps this is a place for me to start feeling good about something. My son is the same way he doesn't fall asleep easily at night, and I do still sometimes crave that time to myself. Just time when little people aren't crawling on me, pulling me around, wrestling me...LOL. But, I do see your point. We don't co-sleep, but I do make myself very available to my kids when and if they need me at night.
<<<One thing that helps us when our kids ask about making a purchase is to think
about why we work. We work to get money.Â>>>
I think part of the issue is, my husband a.) makes plenty of money, and b.) my husband grew up with nothing. He had this firm belief that if you are given everything on a silver platter, you will never learn to appreciate anything...that a person must work to get what he wants in life (probably the seed for many of our problems transcending into this lifestyle!) I grew up with plenty, and I believe there is some validity to his concerns. It is very hard not to spoil your children when you have an abundant amount of money. I think our problem is in knowing we have enough and knowing how easy it would be to go WAY OVERBOARD with any kind of purchasing for our children. They COULD be utterly spoiled...but we choose not to live beyond our means..we want to have values other than being consumers in society, and these morals/values are very important to us. I suppose when it comes to things like iPad apps, I should stop being so stingy...it's not the amount of money in our house as much as it is the "principle" of getting anything and everything you want, whenever you want it something that is our problem (me and my husband), not our kids'...it's something I HAVE to work on and change my mindset about. I realize that now.When you go from structure to unschooling it can seem as if you go from having a
reasonably well behaved child to having a demanding monster, where the more he
gets the more he wants.
<<<When you go from structure to unschooling it can seem as if you go from having a
reasonably well behaved child to having a demanding monster, where the more he
gets the more he wants.>>>
YES, exactly! I think knowing that changing MY mindset, MY approach and MY behaviors is what needs to happen here. It is easy to feel like a martyr, it seems, at the beginning, but perhaps it is just a change in how I approach everyday life. I like the idea of my kids joining me in adult activities (everyday chores, cleaning up, etc...or just following me from room to room when I do have to tend to "lifey" things. Actually, recently I have tried this, and they enjoy being around me while I do other things...as long as I help them when they need help, etc.
<<<Is your husband completely on board with attachment parenting and unschooling?
If not I suspect it will be very difficult. If you have three small children AND
a husband feeling like he's not getting a look in you are in danger of feeling
even more hard done by. If you feel you are doing it all it will be even harder.
If you feel you cannot tell him how exhausted you are for fear of being
criticised for bringing it on yourself it will be even harder. With three very
young children you will need to be a good team.>>>
I can't say he's 100% on board. But, to his credit...neither have I been. I have WANTED to be for so long, but like someone already said, WANTING it isn't enough. I need to just DO it. And stop being self-absorbed and worried and whatever you want to call it. It is true, if I don't change, none of this will. It needs to start with me...he is generally one to follow suit once I am on board with something. I do have his support with unschooling...but the attachment/non-punitive parenting is something he does struggle with. I think we haven't gone with anything long enough to see what works for us. Or, we are just very poor parents...LOL We are definitely a work in progress!
I was him being held at night like *I* had always longed for. My goodness, what
a wonderful feeling came over me. It was like a warm, wonderful light went on.
All of a sudden I realized just how important my presence was to him. And,
there was bonus! For every time I gave to Ethan in ways he needed, in ways I
had too once needed but hadn't gotten, that little girl in me healed, and the
mom I was becoming grew stronger and kinder and someone I could feel proud of.
So, don't give up yet. It might not be your path, it's true. But don't throw
down the ball and walk away too fast. The effort is well worth it.>>>>>
This really hit home for me. I used to feel the same way as a child. Perhaps this is a place for me to start feeling good about something. My son is the same way he doesn't fall asleep easily at night, and I do still sometimes crave that time to myself. Just time when little people aren't crawling on me, pulling me around, wrestling me...LOL. But, I do see your point. We don't co-sleep, but I do make myself very available to my kids when and if they need me at night.
<<<One thing that helps us when our kids ask about making a purchase is to think
about why we work. We work to get money.Â>>>
I think part of the issue is, my husband a.) makes plenty of money, and b.) my husband grew up with nothing. He had this firm belief that if you are given everything on a silver platter, you will never learn to appreciate anything...that a person must work to get what he wants in life (probably the seed for many of our problems transcending into this lifestyle!) I grew up with plenty, and I believe there is some validity to his concerns. It is very hard not to spoil your children when you have an abundant amount of money. I think our problem is in knowing we have enough and knowing how easy it would be to go WAY OVERBOARD with any kind of purchasing for our children. They COULD be utterly spoiled...but we choose not to live beyond our means..we want to have values other than being consumers in society, and these morals/values are very important to us. I suppose when it comes to things like iPad apps, I should stop being so stingy...it's not the amount of money in our house as much as it is the "principle" of getting anything and everything you want, whenever you want it something that is our problem (me and my husband), not our kids'...it's something I HAVE to work on and change my mindset about. I realize that now.When you go from structure to unschooling it can seem as if you go from having a
reasonably well behaved child to having a demanding monster, where the more he
gets the more he wants.
<<<When you go from structure to unschooling it can seem as if you go from having a
reasonably well behaved child to having a demanding monster, where the more he
gets the more he wants.>>>
YES, exactly! I think knowing that changing MY mindset, MY approach and MY behaviors is what needs to happen here. It is easy to feel like a martyr, it seems, at the beginning, but perhaps it is just a change in how I approach everyday life. I like the idea of my kids joining me in adult activities (everyday chores, cleaning up, etc...or just following me from room to room when I do have to tend to "lifey" things. Actually, recently I have tried this, and they enjoy being around me while I do other things...as long as I help them when they need help, etc.
<<<Is your husband completely on board with attachment parenting and unschooling?
If not I suspect it will be very difficult. If you have three small children AND
a husband feeling like he's not getting a look in you are in danger of feeling
even more hard done by. If you feel you are doing it all it will be even harder.
If you feel you cannot tell him how exhausted you are for fear of being
criticised for bringing it on yourself it will be even harder. With three very
young children you will need to be a good team.>>>
I can't say he's 100% on board. But, to his credit...neither have I been. I have WANTED to be for so long, but like someone already said, WANTING it isn't enough. I need to just DO it. And stop being self-absorbed and worried and whatever you want to call it. It is true, if I don't change, none of this will. It needs to start with me...he is generally one to follow suit once I am on board with something. I do have his support with unschooling...but the attachment/non-punitive parenting is something he does struggle with. I think we haven't gone with anything long enough to see what works for us. Or, we are just very poor parents...LOL We are definitely a work in progress!
Sandra Dodd
-=-I can't say he's 100% on board. But, to his credit...neither have I been.-=-
I don't see how that's to his credit. You seemed angry earlier that unschooling hadn't happened in one year for a four year old. It will take longer for a parent, even for one who is consciously working toward it.
-=-or just following me from room to room when I do have to tend to "lifey" things.-=-
All things in life are life things.
If you're not avoiding "have to," you aren't making choices yet, nor are you reminding yourself that you can and should make choices.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
You also used the phrase here: "it's something I HAVE to work on and change my mindset about."
You don't have to. And you can't decide once. It's an every-single-time decision.
-=-He had this firm belief that if you are given everything on a silver platter,-=-
I would like to propose the theory that he does NOT have that firm belief.
He has a vague fear living in his head , probably in the voice of a parent or older relative. I'ts not his belief in his own words. It's a harsh, traditional insult. "A silver platter." How rude someone was to him once (or more than once) when they told him no. They not only told him no, but they insulted him about his desire or stated wish.
Cruelty can easily be passed down from generation to generation. You can choose to stop that cycle. If you're not belittling of your children, they can't pass it on to your grandchildren.
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
If you knew my children in person, that article would mean more to you. There are people here who could vouch for my kids' generosity of spirit and wallet. We didn't give them everything they wanted, but we withhold things arbitrarily, nor ever say "no" just because we believed (or had a vague old voice in our heads) that "no" would guarantee that they would be.... what? "Unspoiled"? What would that be? That they would be needy enough to do tricks for rewards? I think that's really what's behind "don't spoil them."
When people are training dogs to be mean, they sometimes keep them hungry between trainins sessions. Two dobermans nearly killed a boy whose family I knew. They had been tied up for two days without food or water, and their train-to-be-mean owner was away from the house. Had those dogs had food and water anytime they wanted it they would have been "spoiled." They would have been content. They wouldn't have gotten loose and attacked, eaten part of and then buried a seven year old boy. It was out in the counry in northern New Mexico, in Medanales. An elderly neighbor saw the frenzy and the dogs burrying something. He thought it was a pig they had snatched.
People can't undo what they do to their children. Don't be harsh with them. Don't create false desperation and real resentment when you could have trusting, loving relationships.
When we want our children to do something (now they're young adults, and we still sometimes ask them to to do things, or amend behaviors), we reason with them. We don't threaten or reward. We give the best information we have, and they either agree or counter with information we didn't have. We treat them, as we always have, as respected members of our family.
Here you've used another loaded, quoted phrase: "we want to have values other than being consumers in society, and these morals/values are very important to us."
Are those "morals" more important that your child? "Comsumers in society" is a sinful thing? But you own an iPad, and a computer. Maybe it's not an issue of morality to consider purchasing something that would give pleasure to someone in your family, even it that someone is young.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't see how that's to his credit. You seemed angry earlier that unschooling hadn't happened in one year for a four year old. It will take longer for a parent, even for one who is consciously working toward it.
-=-or just following me from room to room when I do have to tend to "lifey" things.-=-
All things in life are life things.
If you're not avoiding "have to," you aren't making choices yet, nor are you reminding yourself that you can and should make choices.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
You also used the phrase here: "it's something I HAVE to work on and change my mindset about."
You don't have to. And you can't decide once. It's an every-single-time decision.
-=-He had this firm belief that if you are given everything on a silver platter,-=-
I would like to propose the theory that he does NOT have that firm belief.
He has a vague fear living in his head , probably in the voice of a parent or older relative. I'ts not his belief in his own words. It's a harsh, traditional insult. "A silver platter." How rude someone was to him once (or more than once) when they told him no. They not only told him no, but they insulted him about his desire or stated wish.
Cruelty can easily be passed down from generation to generation. You can choose to stop that cycle. If you're not belittling of your children, they can't pass it on to your grandchildren.
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
If you knew my children in person, that article would mean more to you. There are people here who could vouch for my kids' generosity of spirit and wallet. We didn't give them everything they wanted, but we withhold things arbitrarily, nor ever say "no" just because we believed (or had a vague old voice in our heads) that "no" would guarantee that they would be.... what? "Unspoiled"? What would that be? That they would be needy enough to do tricks for rewards? I think that's really what's behind "don't spoil them."
When people are training dogs to be mean, they sometimes keep them hungry between trainins sessions. Two dobermans nearly killed a boy whose family I knew. They had been tied up for two days without food or water, and their train-to-be-mean owner was away from the house. Had those dogs had food and water anytime they wanted it they would have been "spoiled." They would have been content. They wouldn't have gotten loose and attacked, eaten part of and then buried a seven year old boy. It was out in the counry in northern New Mexico, in Medanales. An elderly neighbor saw the frenzy and the dogs burrying something. He thought it was a pig they had snatched.
People can't undo what they do to their children. Don't be harsh with them. Don't create false desperation and real resentment when you could have trusting, loving relationships.
When we want our children to do something (now they're young adults, and we still sometimes ask them to to do things, or amend behaviors), we reason with them. We don't threaten or reward. We give the best information we have, and they either agree or counter with information we didn't have. We treat them, as we always have, as respected members of our family.
Here you've used another loaded, quoted phrase: "we want to have values other than being consumers in society, and these morals/values are very important to us."
Are those "morals" more important that your child? "Comsumers in society" is a sinful thing? But you own an iPad, and a computer. Maybe it's not an issue of morality to consider purchasing something that would give pleasure to someone in your family, even it that someone is young.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rinelle
> * Whining incessantly until he gets whatever it is he wants. A cookie.My daughter has also always liked to have a lot of stuff. She likes to try
> Candy. Or, with the iPad, he expects that no
> matter how often, how expensive, etc. it is, he should get whatever game
> he is requesting...even if it's out of his
> league (adult game, etc.) I have put restrictions on him buying things on
> the iPad, but the ads from his other games
> continue to pop up, he sees them and asks me about them. I either buy it
> or he ends up upset because I say "no, not
> today" and explain that we are cutting expenses, etc., and that we cannot
> buy things whenever we feel like it.
> Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it isn't. But I still have a voice
> inside me that says "you cannot give a child
> everything he asks for all the time!" If I did, with him, I'd be spending
> over $100 a week on STUFF. Stuff he plays with
> for an hour and then never touches again. Where should the limit be?
things for herself, and her ipad is nearly out of space because of all the
games she has (and she deletes any she doesn't like frequently). We've found
ways for her to be able to have lots of apps, and it not to break the bank.
Firstly, I let her download any free app she likes. She knows how to find
free ones, and we have apps like 'app miner' where you can specifically
search for free or on sale apps. You can put in an app you like, and it will
notify you when it goes on sale/free.
We also use itunes cards instead of having our credit card on file. It helps
us budget, and when the card is spent, there is no more left. My daughter
(who's 8 now), will often still want me to check if there is enough money in
there to buy an app, and I will put in my password, even though I know there
isn't. She understands that when the money is gone, there isn't any more
until our next payday. It also means that friends and family can buy her
itunes cards for her birthday/Christmas/random gifts. She loves that, and to
our surprise, these days she will often encourage my husband or I to buy
something with her itunes money.
This hasn't happened overnight. It's taken several years for her to feel
like she has enough to be able to share. And we still have a long way to go.
But every time I take some advice here and change my perspective, say yes
more, or find a way to do something I thought we couldn't manage, it gets
better.
> * He wants to play games with us as a family, but can NOT stand to lose.It was a big relief when I read (I think it was on this list?), that it was
> On days that we don't want to deal with a
> melt down, we try to help him win. On days we are stronger, we try to play
> right and talk to him throughout the crying
> and playing that winning isn't the object...being together as a family and
> playing together is what matters...that not
> everyone can win all the time. You know, real life stuff. He can't STAND
> losing in any capacity. He wants to play the
> game (requests to even!), but he doesn't want to lose...even if he's
> behind in the game with still a chance of winning,
> he's miserable). If he's playing catch with daddy and drops the football,
> it's a tragedy and then he doesn't want to
> play anymore. So, he goes and does something easy or plays iPad by
> himself.
OK to let my daughter win. Every time. I felt like I needed to teach her
that she only got to win sometimes, that it was a life lesson she needed to
learn. At 5.
It felt much better to me to let her win. When we played cards, my husband
and I would not win rounds, would hold back cards, and would give her
advantages, let her pick a new card, or roll the dice again. It was fun, for
all of us. And sometimes it is more challenging to lose than to win! Then,
after a year or two, my daughter started insisting that we had to take turns
winning. That everyone had to have a chance to win.
Now, sometimes we let her win, and sometimes we play properly. She knows
we're letting her win, and sometimes she will specifically ask to win
(especially when she's learning a new game). But I have no worries that
she's going to grow up expecting to win every time. When she's playing with
kids her own age, she has no problems with not winning.
Tamara
Karen
>>>>It is very hard not to spoil your children when you have an abundant amount of money. I think our problem is in knowing we have enough and knowing how easy it would be to go WAY OVERBOARD with any kind of purchasing for our children. They COULD be utterly spoiled...but we choose not to live beyond our means..we want to have values other than being consumers in society, and these morals/values are very important to us. I suppose when it comes to things like iPad apps, I should stop being so stingy...it's not the amount of money in our house as much as it is the "principle" of getting anything and everything you want, whenever you want it something that is our problem (me and my husband), not our kids'...it's something I HAVE to work on and change my mindset about. I realize that now.When you go from structure to unschooling it can seem as if you go from having a reasonably well behaved child to having a demanding monster, where the more he gets the more he wants.<<<<<This is one place I think a lot of people make mistakes. Up until the time I was seven, I was poor. Poor, poor. After that, I was lower middle class. I know what it's like to have to ask for food. My parents both grew up similarly. Now, my husband is a professor at a University. We want for very little. Considering my past, I think I'm quite rich, to be honest. We give our son whatever he asks for, within our means. And, he asks for very little. Just for example, it was his birthday in November. He got some gifts. Nice things he had been hoping for. For Christmas, I asked him what he would like. He said, "I really don't know. I feel like I have everything I need."
People who have a lot of money often shower their kids with stuff in place of attention. That's where they get into trouble, I believe. Children begin to measure love as a product of how much the parents are willing to spend because they haven't been shown love any other way. When your son calls for your attention, don't fill it with material things to subdue his needs. Fill him full of you. He will still want stuff. My son wanted this most awesome set of night vision goggles for his birthday. But, he will understand the difference between wanting something to use as a tool for learning, and wanting something to fill a void.
marie_vijendran
Hi Jen,
you wrote:
Here is the book (published this year and also available on Amazon.com but not reviewed yet):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Love-Bombing-Childs-Emotional-Thermostat/dp/1780491379/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355380864&sr=8-1
and here is an article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/sep/22/oliver-james-love-bombing-children#start-of-comments
As unschoolers we are using the 'rules' that apply with lovebombing - we would call them principles - but the extra special bit is that you create a special time outside of normal family life. I believe it is something that can be part of a deschooling process. That is the reason I am doing it. We did it for the second time last weekend with our children. It helps parents reconnect/connect at a deeper level one-on-one with their children. It can help heal things that we did differently when they were little when we didn't have the awareness we do now. It helps heal us as parents as much as the child. To put everything else in the world aside from your relationship with your child for a whole weekend is incredible. It is a powerful re-programming.
Good luck
Marie
you wrote:
>...with my son I would always put him down when he fell asleep as a baby...let him cry it out (anything Dr. Spock, you name it, I did it). I feel I let him down as an infant/baby. I wasn't aware of what I was doing then. I was just following other people's advice.
>I really recommend an idea (actually a method) written about recently by British Psychologist Oliver James which I believe fully aligns with unschooling.
> Some of the other things going on that frustrate me...and no matter how I go into each day (positive or not), I always end up being upset with him and frustrated with myself for being angry/upset. Every. Day.
Here is the book (published this year and also available on Amazon.com but not reviewed yet):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Love-Bombing-Childs-Emotional-Thermostat/dp/1780491379/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355380864&sr=8-1
and here is an article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/sep/22/oliver-james-love-bombing-children#start-of-comments
As unschoolers we are using the 'rules' that apply with lovebombing - we would call them principles - but the extra special bit is that you create a special time outside of normal family life. I believe it is something that can be part of a deschooling process. That is the reason I am doing it. We did it for the second time last weekend with our children. It helps parents reconnect/connect at a deeper level one-on-one with their children. It can help heal things that we did differently when they were little when we didn't have the awareness we do now. It helps heal us as parents as much as the child. To put everything else in the world aside from your relationship with your child for a whole weekend is incredible. It is a powerful re-programming.
Good luck
Marie
Jen
<<<You don't have to. And you can't decide once. It's an every-single-time
decision.>>>
I do have to if this is the lifestyle I want for my children, and it is. In my mind, I have to in order to make this work.
<<<When people are training dogs to be mean, they sometimes keep them hungry
between trainins sessions. Two dobermans nearly killed a boy whose family I
knew. They had been tied up for two days without food or water, and their
train-to-be-mean owner was away from the house. Had those dogs had food and
water anytime they wanted it they would have been "spoiled." They would have
been content. They wouldn't have gotten loose and attacked, eaten part of and
then buried a seven year old boy. It was out in the counry in northern New
Mexico, in Medanales. An elderly neighbor saw the frenzy and the dogs burrying
something. He thought it was a pig they had snatched.>>>
I do understand this is an analogy; however, I do not completely deprive my son of the things he wants/needs I do give him what he wants/asks for most of the time. But, I am starting to understand that being wishy-washy about "sometimes" is what is causing issues for us. The Coke machine analogy was very helpful.
<<<And his choices might be wanting attention and contact.
That should be expected. He's a young mammal. Mammals live in dens, and sleep
touching. A mother fox doesn't dig four or five little holes and put a a
kitfox in each one at night. They stay with their mom until they venture out
on their own.>>>
I want to say that my son does NOT enjoy physical contact. I try this often with him...try to cuddle (or ask him if I feel he really doesn't want it, but I do offer). Touch is something he doesn't enjoy unless it's rough play. Daddy offers this every day, but I can only play so rough at 32 weeks pregnant right now. For instance, during a movie or show, he'd rather sit at the end of the couch on his own while his sissy wants to snuggle up right next to someone they are different. I fall asleep with him when he asks me to (co-sleeping is something we aren't doing as my husband gets up around 5am for a medical job, is a light sleeper and needs adequate sleep for his job), but he does not want me to hold him in bed. He just wants me to lie next to him, and I do not say no to these requests. I do respect his boundaries, so I suppose people's suggestions to be sweet, give him lots of love/attention means doing what he enjoys (and touch is not one of them at this time). Being present and playing are probably the best things I could give him.
<<<What' below might seem harsh, but it's not as harsh as what you first wrote
about your son. At the end are links that have helped many other people, and
have the experiences of many people. Please do read a little, try a little,
wait a while and watch.>>>
It was harsh what I wrote about my son. Part of being vulnerable and open to suggestion is telling it like it is. I believe there was no other way to ask for advice unless I was completely honest. I am very glad that I did because this advice is helping me understand the issues I've caused by being stuck in between conventional parenting and living a more joyful life with my family. Stuck is the best word it is amazing how hard it is to come out of old ways of thinking after 1.) being raised that way, 2.) living around other "conventional" people in your neighborhood and 3.) too often caring what other people think. If I can't be honest with myself (and this list), I would still be stuck. I can feel myself becoming unstuck.
<<<Really? SHOULD be done? Deschooling doesn't apply to a four year old. His
academic learning hadn't even begun.>>>
Now that I read this, perhaps I meant my own deschooling, not his.
<<<You don't have time to read that, and it's not sufficiently helpful for its
length. Here's what to take from it: You'll have three babies. Keep them, all
of them, as near as they want to be, as much as you can manage to do that. Let
them see what you do--folding clothes, making food, cleaning up. You might not
get to do much more than that for a long time. You don't get time to yourself for a few years.>>>
I understand this concept (that I will not have "me-time" for many more years. I am ok with that...I wrote a blog posting about that recently...about giving up that time I "thought" I needed giving up that notion was part of my deschooling process. I am surrounded my moms in my life that cherish their me-time, so this is one of the last things I have learned to change. They do see what I do during the day (fold clothes, making food, cleaning up, etc.), and they do enjoy being around me when I am happily getting things done. Where the disconnect happens is when I getting tired, hungry, frustrated with myself for whatever reason, and then a request comes that "pushes me over the edge". It's not their fault. It's mine. I appreciate the summary of The Continuum Concept; however, I will still read it, and it will take me months...as I love reading and learning, and I do try to fit it in in increments here and there. It's not something I'm attempting to swallow in a few days.
<<<I do. You have unrealistic expectations and a harshness toward him.
You seem to be giving up because parenting is getting a little challenging.
You're tired, and angry, and frustrated. He's probably reacting to that in
very natural, human ways. And if he's genetically like you, one of you needs
to stop that feedback loop. Be his partner. Take a gracious loss for the team,
because he's too young to do that.>>>
Right on. I do give up easily. And I know, at least with this, that I don't want to. And yes, he is a lot like me. I liked "things" when I was little, and I don't even know why. It wasn't because my mom didn't give me attention (she actually gave me too much), but I liked my STUFF a lot...I organized it, took care of it, etc. That alone should help me understand...
<<<This is a lot to put out at once, but things have gotten dangerous at your
house, and children can't learn in a dangerous atmosphere.>>>
I don't know why, but this comment sat with me all day and night and sort of frightened me. Things are dangerous at my house? We have a lot of good moments...and love...but yes, also a lot of frustration, crankiness and unhappiness at times. But, hearing this scares me. I didn't realize things had gotten dangerous. I guess I don't understand the context in which the word is being used...perhaps I am being too literal. I suppose if it means that we are at danger of giving up unschooling/attachment parenting principles for a more familiar way of life, than yes...it is dangerous.
decision.>>>
I do have to if this is the lifestyle I want for my children, and it is. In my mind, I have to in order to make this work.
<<<When people are training dogs to be mean, they sometimes keep them hungry
between trainins sessions. Two dobermans nearly killed a boy whose family I
knew. They had been tied up for two days without food or water, and their
train-to-be-mean owner was away from the house. Had those dogs had food and
water anytime they wanted it they would have been "spoiled." They would have
been content. They wouldn't have gotten loose and attacked, eaten part of and
then buried a seven year old boy. It was out in the counry in northern New
Mexico, in Medanales. An elderly neighbor saw the frenzy and the dogs burrying
something. He thought it was a pig they had snatched.>>>
I do understand this is an analogy; however, I do not completely deprive my son of the things he wants/needs I do give him what he wants/asks for most of the time. But, I am starting to understand that being wishy-washy about "sometimes" is what is causing issues for us. The Coke machine analogy was very helpful.
<<<And his choices might be wanting attention and contact.
That should be expected. He's a young mammal. Mammals live in dens, and sleep
touching. A mother fox doesn't dig four or five little holes and put a a
kitfox in each one at night. They stay with their mom until they venture out
on their own.>>>
I want to say that my son does NOT enjoy physical contact. I try this often with him...try to cuddle (or ask him if I feel he really doesn't want it, but I do offer). Touch is something he doesn't enjoy unless it's rough play. Daddy offers this every day, but I can only play so rough at 32 weeks pregnant right now. For instance, during a movie or show, he'd rather sit at the end of the couch on his own while his sissy wants to snuggle up right next to someone they are different. I fall asleep with him when he asks me to (co-sleeping is something we aren't doing as my husband gets up around 5am for a medical job, is a light sleeper and needs adequate sleep for his job), but he does not want me to hold him in bed. He just wants me to lie next to him, and I do not say no to these requests. I do respect his boundaries, so I suppose people's suggestions to be sweet, give him lots of love/attention means doing what he enjoys (and touch is not one of them at this time). Being present and playing are probably the best things I could give him.
<<<What' below might seem harsh, but it's not as harsh as what you first wrote
about your son. At the end are links that have helped many other people, and
have the experiences of many people. Please do read a little, try a little,
wait a while and watch.>>>
It was harsh what I wrote about my son. Part of being vulnerable and open to suggestion is telling it like it is. I believe there was no other way to ask for advice unless I was completely honest. I am very glad that I did because this advice is helping me understand the issues I've caused by being stuck in between conventional parenting and living a more joyful life with my family. Stuck is the best word it is amazing how hard it is to come out of old ways of thinking after 1.) being raised that way, 2.) living around other "conventional" people in your neighborhood and 3.) too often caring what other people think. If I can't be honest with myself (and this list), I would still be stuck. I can feel myself becoming unstuck.
<<<Really? SHOULD be done? Deschooling doesn't apply to a four year old. His
academic learning hadn't even begun.>>>
Now that I read this, perhaps I meant my own deschooling, not his.
<<<You don't have time to read that, and it's not sufficiently helpful for its
length. Here's what to take from it: You'll have three babies. Keep them, all
of them, as near as they want to be, as much as you can manage to do that. Let
them see what you do--folding clothes, making food, cleaning up. You might not
get to do much more than that for a long time. You don't get time to yourself for a few years.>>>
I understand this concept (that I will not have "me-time" for many more years. I am ok with that...I wrote a blog posting about that recently...about giving up that time I "thought" I needed giving up that notion was part of my deschooling process. I am surrounded my moms in my life that cherish their me-time, so this is one of the last things I have learned to change. They do see what I do during the day (fold clothes, making food, cleaning up, etc.), and they do enjoy being around me when I am happily getting things done. Where the disconnect happens is when I getting tired, hungry, frustrated with myself for whatever reason, and then a request comes that "pushes me over the edge". It's not their fault. It's mine. I appreciate the summary of The Continuum Concept; however, I will still read it, and it will take me months...as I love reading and learning, and I do try to fit it in in increments here and there. It's not something I'm attempting to swallow in a few days.
<<<I do. You have unrealistic expectations and a harshness toward him.
You seem to be giving up because parenting is getting a little challenging.
You're tired, and angry, and frustrated. He's probably reacting to that in
very natural, human ways. And if he's genetically like you, one of you needs
to stop that feedback loop. Be his partner. Take a gracious loss for the team,
because he's too young to do that.>>>
Right on. I do give up easily. And I know, at least with this, that I don't want to. And yes, he is a lot like me. I liked "things" when I was little, and I don't even know why. It wasn't because my mom didn't give me attention (she actually gave me too much), but I liked my STUFF a lot...I organized it, took care of it, etc. That alone should help me understand...
<<<This is a lot to put out at once, but things have gotten dangerous at your
house, and children can't learn in a dangerous atmosphere.>>>
I don't know why, but this comment sat with me all day and night and sort of frightened me. Things are dangerous at my house? We have a lot of good moments...and love...but yes, also a lot of frustration, crankiness and unhappiness at times. But, hearing this scares me. I didn't realize things had gotten dangerous. I guess I don't understand the context in which the word is being used...perhaps I am being too literal. I suppose if it means that we are at danger of giving up unschooling/attachment parenting principles for a more familiar way of life, than yes...it is dangerous.
Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp
-=- ... feel uncapable of unschooling my children. I WANT to, desperately....but perhaps I am not cut out for it. -=-
I can understand that. I wanted to have four children. I planned on wooing Graham (who only wanted two) with my amazing parenting skills to help change his mind. The wooing didn't get very far. I wasn't as amazing as I thought I was going to be in my pre-children fantasy life ;-) I flat out ran out of energy. Maybe it was because I waited until I was older to have children, or because Gisele had health issues, or because I didn't realize how physically and emotionally exhausting parenting was going to be for me, or perhaps it was a combination of all those reasons. But I realized I was probably not cut out for it.
I can understand that you're feeling uncertain about unschooling.
But what about this?:
-=- Is there anything I can do to mend this relationship before it's too late? Please help... -=-
Although the advice and ideas you've been getting are based on the philosophy of unschooling, it is also the best relationship mending advice I know of.
Maybe it would help you right now not to think so much about the unschooling right now, but to focus more on how to mend your relationship with your sweet little boy.
If I was in your situation, I would do some grand gesture to reconnect with my little boy. I would apologize and tell him I was going to try to do better and listen better. I would recognize that he is not getting his fill of mama time and connection. I would be aware that with the new baby coming, his feeling of lack is only likely to increase.
If it were me, I would probably plan a fun weekend away - just me and my little boy. I would make sure my husband and daughter were well taken care of and also set up to have an amazing weekend together and then I would focus all my energy on connecting with my son. Maybe I would take him to a hotel with a fun swimming pool and make sure our room was well stocked with lots of bowls filled with different candies and cookies. I'd make sure the ipad was full of new games. I'd take water guns into the pool and have a shoot out with him. We'd order pizzas, watch movies and cartoons, I'd tell him funny stories about what he was like as a baby, I'd attentively listen to his stories, and I'd pay close attention to how he was feeling. I would deliberately do everything I could to increase his feelings of connection, happiness, safety, and wellbeing. We'd talk in bed until we both fell asleep exhausted from all the fun we had.
I would also come up with a special signal that he could use when he's feeling unheard, bored, lost, confused, and/or lonely. Maybe it would be a soft squeeze of my hand, or a made up word, or a special talisman. When he used that signal in the future, it would trigger me to stop what I was doing that was hurting him.
I actually did use this when Gianluca and Gisele were younger and it worked wonderfully. I gave them a wooden love stone, engraved with the message 'I love you' in multiple languages. It was their magic talisman that gave them the power to help me be nicer and to help me focus on what's important - them! It's a very powerful tool for young children. What was required of me to keep it powerful was that I let it work every single time, no matter how busy/tired/upset/frustrated/irritated/depressed I was. If I had failed even once, it would have lost it's magic.
If one of them gave me the love stone, I would change the energy of the situation by breathing deeply, filling my heart with my love for my child, making eye contact with them, smiling, touching them, and thanking them for reminding me to be nicer (all this probably took 30 seconds). I would pay attention to what they were saying and do my honest best to say 'yes, let's do that' (or some form of yes). Often I wouldn't be able to stop everything right then, but I'd keep them close and talk with them as I was finishing up what I was in the middle of.
The best advice I can give you is to keep reading here - even in little bits and pieces. It will help you expand your mind and see new possibilities. It will help soften you and be sweeter to all your children and your husband. Even if you decide not to continue with unschooling, reading here will help you have stronger relationships.
Of course, if you start doing what is suggested for mending your relationship, you're already moving dangerously close towards unschooling ;-)
Rippy
(Gianluca 8, Gisele 6)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I can understand that. I wanted to have four children. I planned on wooing Graham (who only wanted two) with my amazing parenting skills to help change his mind. The wooing didn't get very far. I wasn't as amazing as I thought I was going to be in my pre-children fantasy life ;-) I flat out ran out of energy. Maybe it was because I waited until I was older to have children, or because Gisele had health issues, or because I didn't realize how physically and emotionally exhausting parenting was going to be for me, or perhaps it was a combination of all those reasons. But I realized I was probably not cut out for it.
I can understand that you're feeling uncertain about unschooling.
But what about this?:
-=- Is there anything I can do to mend this relationship before it's too late? Please help... -=-
Although the advice and ideas you've been getting are based on the philosophy of unschooling, it is also the best relationship mending advice I know of.
Maybe it would help you right now not to think so much about the unschooling right now, but to focus more on how to mend your relationship with your sweet little boy.
If I was in your situation, I would do some grand gesture to reconnect with my little boy. I would apologize and tell him I was going to try to do better and listen better. I would recognize that he is not getting his fill of mama time and connection. I would be aware that with the new baby coming, his feeling of lack is only likely to increase.
If it were me, I would probably plan a fun weekend away - just me and my little boy. I would make sure my husband and daughter were well taken care of and also set up to have an amazing weekend together and then I would focus all my energy on connecting with my son. Maybe I would take him to a hotel with a fun swimming pool and make sure our room was well stocked with lots of bowls filled with different candies and cookies. I'd make sure the ipad was full of new games. I'd take water guns into the pool and have a shoot out with him. We'd order pizzas, watch movies and cartoons, I'd tell him funny stories about what he was like as a baby, I'd attentively listen to his stories, and I'd pay close attention to how he was feeling. I would deliberately do everything I could to increase his feelings of connection, happiness, safety, and wellbeing. We'd talk in bed until we both fell asleep exhausted from all the fun we had.
I would also come up with a special signal that he could use when he's feeling unheard, bored, lost, confused, and/or lonely. Maybe it would be a soft squeeze of my hand, or a made up word, or a special talisman. When he used that signal in the future, it would trigger me to stop what I was doing that was hurting him.
I actually did use this when Gianluca and Gisele were younger and it worked wonderfully. I gave them a wooden love stone, engraved with the message 'I love you' in multiple languages. It was their magic talisman that gave them the power to help me be nicer and to help me focus on what's important - them! It's a very powerful tool for young children. What was required of me to keep it powerful was that I let it work every single time, no matter how busy/tired/upset/frustrated/irritated/depressed I was. If I had failed even once, it would have lost it's magic.
If one of them gave me the love stone, I would change the energy of the situation by breathing deeply, filling my heart with my love for my child, making eye contact with them, smiling, touching them, and thanking them for reminding me to be nicer (all this probably took 30 seconds). I would pay attention to what they were saying and do my honest best to say 'yes, let's do that' (or some form of yes). Often I wouldn't be able to stop everything right then, but I'd keep them close and talk with them as I was finishing up what I was in the middle of.
The best advice I can give you is to keep reading here - even in little bits and pieces. It will help you expand your mind and see new possibilities. It will help soften you and be sweeter to all your children and your husband. Even if you decide not to continue with unschooling, reading here will help you have stronger relationships.
Of course, if you start doing what is suggested for mending your relationship, you're already moving dangerously close towards unschooling ;-)
Rippy
(Gianluca 8, Gisele 6)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
************
<<<You don't have to. And you can't decide once. It's an every-single-time
decision.>>>
I do have to if this is the lifestyle I want for my children, and it is. In my mind, I have to in order to make this work.
*************
This makes me think you're not reading the links that were sent.
And by "reading" I don't mean school-style, eyes back and forth until you get to the bottom.
I mean read a little, try a little, wait a while and watch.
Read and think. Read and initiate. Read and attempt. Read and change. Read and consider.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
I wrote "You don't have to."
You wrote "I do have to... In my mind, I have to ."
Your mind is keeping you from seeing what will help you change, then.
-=-I do have to if this is the lifestyle I want for my children, and it is. In my mind, I have to in order to make this work."
If you do something because you feel you have to, you are feeling trapped and helpless.
If you see that everything is a choice, you empower yourself. You won't be helpless any more. Without even moving from your chair or changing shoes, you go from powerless to powerful. Or you don't. Or maybe you insist that I'm wrong and you're right, and you know that you "have to."
If you do not decide to make choices, and realize that those choices must be made again, repeatedly, and begin to do that in such a way that your children see you making better choices, then unschooling will not work for you.
If you're unwilling to read the links people bring you, then participation in this discussion will be stunted and ineffectual to get you to unschooling.
You don't "have to" read the links. If you choose not to, that's your choice.
No one here has to help you. Each person who writes to try to help you see how near you are to unschooling, and what small tweaks of thought and posture could take you closer to it is choosing to try to help you, not so much for your sake as for your son's.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<You don't have to. And you can't decide once. It's an every-single-time
decision.>>>
I do have to if this is the lifestyle I want for my children, and it is. In my mind, I have to in order to make this work.
*************
This makes me think you're not reading the links that were sent.
And by "reading" I don't mean school-style, eyes back and forth until you get to the bottom.
I mean read a little, try a little, wait a while and watch.
Read and think. Read and initiate. Read and attempt. Read and change. Read and consider.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
I wrote "You don't have to."
You wrote "I do have to... In my mind, I have to ."
Your mind is keeping you from seeing what will help you change, then.
-=-I do have to if this is the lifestyle I want for my children, and it is. In my mind, I have to in order to make this work."
If you do something because you feel you have to, you are feeling trapped and helpless.
If you see that everything is a choice, you empower yourself. You won't be helpless any more. Without even moving from your chair or changing shoes, you go from powerless to powerful. Or you don't. Or maybe you insist that I'm wrong and you're right, and you know that you "have to."
If you do not decide to make choices, and realize that those choices must be made again, repeatedly, and begin to do that in such a way that your children see you making better choices, then unschooling will not work for you.
If you're unwilling to read the links people bring you, then participation in this discussion will be stunted and ineffectual to get you to unschooling.
You don't "have to" read the links. If you choose not to, that's your choice.
No one here has to help you. Each person who writes to try to help you see how near you are to unschooling, and what small tweaks of thought and posture could take you closer to it is choosing to try to help you, not so much for your sake as for your son's.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]