I need serious help
troubadour4me
Hi, Awhile back i posted about my son Lukas (11yo. tomorrow ) has been acting on ocd type behaviours. He wanted the curtains closed, the couch untouched and the remotes lined up on a table in the living room. plus, the new t.v. can only be used by him. I got advice to let him have that control. okay...we did and i still have problems but a more important one is going on with him and i wanted to discuss it here before i take it further. He hates his freckles! He talks about them all day. He stratches (sp) at them. we got him concealer. He puts in on but soon after screams it doesn't work. We got him foundation too.
He asks when they will go away. I told him everything i could think of...they are beautiful...they will go away. Nothing comforts him. It at a point where i am worried he will try to cut them off his face!
He has threatned too. He is obsessed with them. This is driving us nuts. It's all we hear about all day and night! What should we do?
I made a phone call to a childrens center and they said they have behaviour/therapy. This might mean him being evaluated and paperwork him going the "system".
He asks when they will go away. I told him everything i could think of...they are beautiful...they will go away. Nothing comforts him. It at a point where i am worried he will try to cut them off his face!
He has threatned too. He is obsessed with them. This is driving us nuts. It's all we hear about all day and night! What should we do?
I made a phone call to a childrens center and they said they have behaviour/therapy. This might mean him being evaluated and paperwork him going the "system".
Meredith
"troubadour4me" <ronniegreek@...> wrote:
If he's really having a hard time, he might need more than you can do for him at home. That's not some kind of personal failure! If he had... MS for example, there would be things you could do to help him at home some of the time, there would be ways to adapt your lifestyle to his needs, but sometimes he'd still need more help than you can provide - assistance or medication.
Don't try to comfort him or tell him they'll go away - they might not. He might get more! Ask him to tell you what he doesn't like about them - why do they bother him? His answer may not make sense to you, but don't try and talk him out of his feelings. Commiserate. Maybe talk about something you don't like about yourself and how you've learned to live with it - don't you have chronic pain? maybe talk about that, as a way of sharing how other people also have things they don't like about their bodies but can't change.
---Meredith
>> I made a phone call to a childrens center and they said they have behaviour/therapy. This might mean him being evaluated and paperwork him going the "system".****************
If he's really having a hard time, he might need more than you can do for him at home. That's not some kind of personal failure! If he had... MS for example, there would be things you could do to help him at home some of the time, there would be ways to adapt your lifestyle to his needs, but sometimes he'd still need more help than you can provide - assistance or medication.
> He asks when they will go away. I told him everything i could think of...they are beautiful...they will go away. Nothing comforts him.***************
Don't try to comfort him or tell him they'll go away - they might not. He might get more! Ask him to tell you what he doesn't like about them - why do they bother him? His answer may not make sense to you, but don't try and talk him out of his feelings. Commiserate. Maybe talk about something you don't like about yourself and how you've learned to live with it - don't you have chronic pain? maybe talk about that, as a way of sharing how other people also have things they don't like about their bodies but can't change.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=- plus, the new t.v. can only be used by him. I got advice to let him have that control. okay...we did-=-
Did people really say that you should allow Lukas to have the new tv all to himself? That doesn't sound right.
-=-He asks when they will go away. I told him everything i could think of...they are beautiful...they will go away.-=-
But he doesn't think they're beautiful.
And they might not go away.
Does he get out and play with other kids? Do you go places? Does he see other people with freckles? Does your husband have freckles, or you? Cousins, uncles? Can you visit them?
-=-This is driving us nuts. It's all we hear about all day and night! What should we do?-=
Maybe instead of avoiding it, you should immerse yourselves in freckles imagary and lore and reality. ALL about freckles, LOTS.
This page isn't in beautifully-formatted shape yet, but there are counsellors who can help who aren't local, who are unschoolers or are involved with unschoolers.
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
Try that before going to local people, maybe. I recommend Michelle, for this, of that set of people.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Did people really say that you should allow Lukas to have the new tv all to himself? That doesn't sound right.
-=-He asks when they will go away. I told him everything i could think of...they are beautiful...they will go away.-=-
But he doesn't think they're beautiful.
And they might not go away.
Does he get out and play with other kids? Do you go places? Does he see other people with freckles? Does your husband have freckles, or you? Cousins, uncles? Can you visit them?
-=-This is driving us nuts. It's all we hear about all day and night! What should we do?-=
Maybe instead of avoiding it, you should immerse yourselves in freckles imagary and lore and reality. ALL about freckles, LOTS.
This page isn't in beautifully-formatted shape yet, but there are counsellors who can help who aren't local, who are unschoolers or are involved with unschoolers.
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
Try that before going to local people, maybe. I recommend Michelle, for this, of that set of people.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert and Colleen
-=-He asks when they will go away. I told him everything i could think
of...they are beautiful...they will go away.-=-
***But he doesn't think they're beautiful. And they might not go away.
Maybe instead of avoiding it, you should immerse yourselves in freckles
imagary and lore and reality. ALL about freckles, LOTS.***
When I was younger, I hated my freckles. Really, really wanted not to have
freckles. My sister didn't have them - I did - and I was pretty sure it was
unfair, unjust, and probably evidence of a curse (seriously, I thought I was
cursed, yep :-)).
Over time, my parents helped me discover lots of things about freckles that
helped me get over my dislike of them, such as.
*Often, as you get older, freckles fade out and are less noticeable, even
when they're still there. But that takes until you're an adult, usually, if
it's going to happen. And it doesn't happen with everyone. Some people get
more freckles as they age, not less.
*People with freckles tend to get less pimples/acne. I don't know if that's
current wisdom or if that has been disproven (might be worth Googling), but
I had older cousins with terrible acne and the idea that my freckles could
keep my skin from looking like theirs made me slightly happier :-)
*Elderly people in my own family who were freckled when they were younger
were not very wrinkly when they were older. Coincidence? Maybe. But when
I was little, the idea of less wrinkles, like less acne, seemed a lovely
idea to me.
*Lots of people who have freckles don't like them, and there are laser
treatments and bleach treatments and other such "remedies" for people who
really can't live with being freckled. Those methods of course have varying
success rates - but they're possibilities for Someday.
These are some of the pieces of knowledge/family lore/etc. that helped me.
I know now, looking back, that my parents thought about who I was, what I
liked and didn't like, and how they could help my freckles seem like a good
thing instead of a bad one - or seem like a *potentially* temporary
situation instead of a permanent one.
While you are deciding what to do about counseling etc. for your son,
thinking about who your son is, and sharing freckle information and stories
relevant to his personality/likes/dislikes, would at least let him know he's
by no means alone in not wanting them any more :-) and might give him
something to latch on to in his mind that makes them bearable and acceptable
for a time.
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of...they are beautiful...they will go away.-=-
***But he doesn't think they're beautiful. And they might not go away.
Maybe instead of avoiding it, you should immerse yourselves in freckles
imagary and lore and reality. ALL about freckles, LOTS.***
When I was younger, I hated my freckles. Really, really wanted not to have
freckles. My sister didn't have them - I did - and I was pretty sure it was
unfair, unjust, and probably evidence of a curse (seriously, I thought I was
cursed, yep :-)).
Over time, my parents helped me discover lots of things about freckles that
helped me get over my dislike of them, such as.
*Often, as you get older, freckles fade out and are less noticeable, even
when they're still there. But that takes until you're an adult, usually, if
it's going to happen. And it doesn't happen with everyone. Some people get
more freckles as they age, not less.
*People with freckles tend to get less pimples/acne. I don't know if that's
current wisdom or if that has been disproven (might be worth Googling), but
I had older cousins with terrible acne and the idea that my freckles could
keep my skin from looking like theirs made me slightly happier :-)
*Elderly people in my own family who were freckled when they were younger
were not very wrinkly when they were older. Coincidence? Maybe. But when
I was little, the idea of less wrinkles, like less acne, seemed a lovely
idea to me.
*Lots of people who have freckles don't like them, and there are laser
treatments and bleach treatments and other such "remedies" for people who
really can't live with being freckled. Those methods of course have varying
success rates - but they're possibilities for Someday.
These are some of the pieces of knowledge/family lore/etc. that helped me.
I know now, looking back, that my parents thought about who I was, what I
liked and didn't like, and how they could help my freckles seem like a good
thing instead of a bad one - or seem like a *potentially* temporary
situation instead of a permanent one.
While you are deciding what to do about counseling etc. for your son,
thinking about who your son is, and sharing freckle information and stories
relevant to his personality/likes/dislikes, would at least let him know he's
by no means alone in not wanting them any more :-) and might give him
something to latch on to in his mind that makes them bearable and acceptable
for a time.
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
troubadour4me
Yes they did Sandra. I was asked why i couldn't let him have that control.That if i allow him the control his need for it will go away. It was posted on here while you were away. Not to long ago. All the curtains in the room have to be closed. we can't sit on the couch because he sleeps on it and has to have it made a certain way. If we try to do anything in there he pitches a bloody screaming fit. yelling i hate you and worse.god forid we have company and someone tries to sit on the couch! We do try to keep him quiet because my neighbor friend has said she hears him screaming,cussing us. She came over and talked to him. It did help.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- plus, the new t.v. can only be used by him. I got advice to let him have that control. okay...we did-=-
>
> Did people really say that you should allow Lukas to have the new tv all to himself? That doesn't sound right.
>
> -=-He asks when they will go away. I told him everything i could think of...they are beautiful...they will go away.-=-
>
> But he doesn't think they're beautiful.
> And they might not go away.
>
> Does he get out and play with other kids? Do you go places? Does he see other people with freckles? Does your husband have freckles, or you? Cousins, uncles? Can you visit them?
>
> -=-This is driving us nuts. It's all we hear about all day and night! What should we do?-=
>
> Maybe instead of avoiding it, you should immerse yourselves in freckles imagary and lore and reality. ALL about freckles, LOTS.
>
> This page isn't in beautifully-formatted shape yet, but there are counsellors who can help who aren't local, who are unschoolers or are involved with unschoolers.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
>
> Try that before going to local people, maybe. I recommend Michelle, for this, of that set of people.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
I asked: -=-> Did people really say that you should allow Lukas to have the new tv all to himself? That doesn't sound right.-=-
ronniegreek wrote: -=-Yes they did Sandra. I was asked why i couldn't let him have that control.That if i allow him the control his need for it will go away. It was posted on here while you were away. Not to long ago. -=-
I don't remember it. I have never "been away" in the sense of not reading Always Learning. I've been behind a day or two a couple of times, but never "away."
One of the moderators checked and says you haven't posted here since 2010.
There are some other discussions giving some very irresponsible advice, and I would like to know where someone gave you such bad advice that the situation is worse, and that your neighbors are complaining.
I'm VERY sorry, very sympathetic that your son is having these kinds of reactions. I hope you can get help from one of the therapists or counsellors on the page I gave you. I'm not willing to accept any blame on behalf of this discussion for the advice to let your son do/have anything he wants, no matter how much it disturbs the peace. I wouldn't have let advice like that pass by. I don't think the other moderators would have, either, even if I HAD "been away."
If anyone else here knows where such bad advice might have been offered to ronniegreek, please let me know, either here or on the side.
-=-We do try to keep him quiet because my neighbor friend has said she hears him screaming,cussing us. She came over and talked to him. It did help. -=-
You didn't answer whether you're going out to visit other families. Are there other unschooling parents in your life who could talk to your son, or offer you other ideas and strategies?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ronniegreek wrote: -=-Yes they did Sandra. I was asked why i couldn't let him have that control.That if i allow him the control his need for it will go away. It was posted on here while you were away. Not to long ago. -=-
I don't remember it. I have never "been away" in the sense of not reading Always Learning. I've been behind a day or two a couple of times, but never "away."
One of the moderators checked and says you haven't posted here since 2010.
There are some other discussions giving some very irresponsible advice, and I would like to know where someone gave you such bad advice that the situation is worse, and that your neighbors are complaining.
I'm VERY sorry, very sympathetic that your son is having these kinds of reactions. I hope you can get help from one of the therapists or counsellors on the page I gave you. I'm not willing to accept any blame on behalf of this discussion for the advice to let your son do/have anything he wants, no matter how much it disturbs the peace. I wouldn't have let advice like that pass by. I don't think the other moderators would have, either, even if I HAD "been away."
If anyone else here knows where such bad advice might have been offered to ronniegreek, please let me know, either here or on the side.
-=-We do try to keep him quiet because my neighbor friend has said she hears him screaming,cussing us. She came over and talked to him. It did help. -=-
You didn't answer whether you're going out to visit other families. Are there other unschooling parents in your life who could talk to your son, or offer you other ideas and strategies?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
troubadour4me
The email addy says ronnie but that is my husband's name. This is Heather. Could it had showed up as halfshadow1@...? I think the post had the word control as subject. I will look back. By away, i think you were traveling. I will look tomorrow okay? Yes, he does get out every week....movies, eating places,parks.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> I asked: -=-> Did people really say that you should allow Lukas to have the new tv all to himself? That doesn't sound right.-=-
>
> ronniegreek wrote: -=-Yes they did Sandra. I was asked why i couldn't let him have that control.That if i allow him the control his need for it will go away. It was posted on here while you were away. Not to long ago. -=-
>
> I don't remember it. I have never "been away" in the sense of not reading Always Learning. I've been behind a day or two a couple of times, but never "away."
>
> One of the moderators checked and says you haven't posted here since 2010.
>
> There are some other discussions giving some very irresponsible advice, and I would like to know where someone gave you such bad advice that the situation is worse, and that your neighbors are complaining.
>
> I'm VERY sorry, very sympathetic that your son is having these kinds of reactions. I hope you can get help from one of the therapists or counsellors on the page I gave you. I'm not willing to accept any blame on behalf of this discussion for the advice to let your son do/have anything he wants, no matter how much it disturbs the peace. I wouldn't have let advice like that pass by. I don't think the other moderators would have, either, even if I HAD "been away."
>
> If anyone else here knows where such bad advice might have been offered to ronniegreek, please let me know, either here or on the side.
>
> -=-We do try to keep him quiet because my neighbor friend has said she hears him screaming,cussing us. She came over and talked to him. It did help. -=-
>
> You didn't answer whether you're going out to visit other families. Are there other unschooling parents in your life who could talk to your son, or offer you other ideas and strategies?
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-The email addy says ronnie but that is my husband's name. This is Heather. Could it had showed up as halfshadow1@...?-=-
Maybe.
I used the name that showed on the post so people would know which post it was about. Had you put your name at the bottom of the e-mail, I would've used your name.
-=-Yes, he does get out every week....movies, eating places,parks.-=-
Good. Thanks for clarifying. Would more than once a week help? Maybe he's home too much.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe.
I used the name that showed on the post so people would know which post it was about. Had you put your name at the bottom of the e-mail, I would've used your name.
-=-Yes, he does get out every week....movies, eating places,parks.-=-
Good. Thanks for clarifying. Would more than once a week help? Maybe he's home too much.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa Celedon
<<<
I was asked why i couldn't let him have that control.That if i allow him the control his need for it will go away. It was posted on here while you were away. Not to long ago.
The comment about the TV- I believe someone commented that your post sounded as if there was an assumption that your husband should have more right to the new, big tv, than your son, and he should have equal (not more or less) right to use it as anyone else.
I don't recall anyone suggesting that you give full control of the house, or the tv, to your son. At most, I think it was suggested that your son may learn compassion for others, and take others' needs into consideration, but that he first had to trust that he was being shown compassion and having his needs taken seriously. That doesn't mean give him his way all the time regardless of the impact on others, or to give him control over what others in the household can or can't do. That isn't kind to anyone.
From what you've written in both instances, it sounds like you are trying to appease him, to keep him from getting angry or exploding- and that you are not happy with the measures you're having to take to accomplish that. I think it's one thing to accommodate his needs as much as you can because you want to be kind and considerate of him- it's another thing entirely to do it out of fear of handling his big, angry emotions.
Lisa C
I was asked why i couldn't let him have that control.That if i allow him the control his need for it will go away. It was posted on here while you were away. Not to long ago.
>>>>>I remember that conversation, but only on the Always Unschooled list because I was not on this list at the time. If I remember correctly, someone pointed out that based on your email it sounded as if you were insisting on control as well (he needs the curtains closed, you need them open, etc.) and that to your son, you probably appear as the one who was controlling, and that his behavior may be a result from feeling that his needs are not respected or taken seriously (based on the tone of your post). There were suggested ways to accommodate his needs (like sunglasses), and I think mostly the responses were geared toward having you reflect on what your needs really are, and how can you and your son work together to meet each other's needs. He may have a need for some control, and is it possible for you to let him have that.
The comment about the TV- I believe someone commented that your post sounded as if there was an assumption that your husband should have more right to the new, big tv, than your son, and he should have equal (not more or less) right to use it as anyone else.
I don't recall anyone suggesting that you give full control of the house, or the tv, to your son. At most, I think it was suggested that your son may learn compassion for others, and take others' needs into consideration, but that he first had to trust that he was being shown compassion and having his needs taken seriously. That doesn't mean give him his way all the time regardless of the impact on others, or to give him control over what others in the household can or can't do. That isn't kind to anyone.
From what you've written in both instances, it sounds like you are trying to appease him, to keep him from getting angry or exploding- and that you are not happy with the measures you're having to take to accomplish that. I think it's one thing to accommodate his needs as much as you can because you want to be kind and considerate of him- it's another thing entirely to do it out of fear of handling his big, angry emotions.
Lisa C
On Oct 4, 2012, at 2:26 PM, "troubadour4me" <ronniegreek@...> wrote:
> Yes they did Sandra. I was asked why i couldn't let him have that control.That if i allow him the control his need for it will go away. It was posted on here while you were away. Not to long ago. All the curtains in the room have to be closed. we can't sit on the couch because he sleeps on it and has to have it made a certain way. If we try to do anything in there he pitches a bloody screaming fit. yelling i hate you and worse.god forid we have company and someone tries to sit on the couch! We do try to keep him quiet because my neighbor friend has said she hears him screaming,cussing us. She came over and talked to him. It did help.
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> >
> > -=- plus, the new t.v. can only be used by him. I got advice to let him have that control. okay...we did-=-
> >
> > Did people really say that you should allow Lukas to have the new tv all to himself? That doesn't sound right.
> >
> > -=-He asks when they will go away. I told him everything i could think of...they are beautiful...they will go away.-=-
> >
> > But he doesn't think they're beautiful.
> > And they might not go away.
> >
> > Does he get out and play with other kids? Do you go places? Does he see other people with freckles? Does your husband have freckles, or you? Cousins, uncles? Can you visit them?
> >
> > -=-This is driving us nuts. It's all we hear about all day and night! What should we do?-=
> >
> > Maybe instead of avoiding it, you should immerse yourselves in freckles imagary and lore and reality. ALL about freckles, LOTS.
> >
> > This page isn't in beautifully-formatted shape yet, but there are counsellors who can help who aren't local, who are unschoolers or are involved with unschoolers.
> >
> > http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
> >
> > Try that before going to local people, maybe. I recommend Michelle, for this, of that set of people.
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
troubadour4me
I am so sorry! I started the post on another group for unschoolers (AU) I can go through some of the responses if you want tomorrow.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-The email addy says ronnie but that is my husband's name. This is Heather. Could it had showed up as halfshadow1@...?-=-
>
> Maybe.
> I used the name that showed on the post so people would know which post it was about. Had you put your name at the bottom of the e-mail, I would've used your name.
>
> -=-Yes, he does get out every week....movies, eating places,parks.-=-
>
> Good. Thanks for clarifying. Would more than once a week help? Maybe he's home too much.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
troubadour4me
I am home too much! I feel like we are in prison. We had to get rid of a car and buy another one but my husband uses it sunday-wedsnesday. So he if off thurs,fri,sat. I had my car every day and we got out more. It depressed me not having a car. Hopefully when i get some estate money i will get a car.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-The email addy says ronnie but that is my husband's name. This is Heather. Could it had showed up as halfshadow1@...?-=-
>
> Maybe.
> I used the name that showed on the post so people would know which post it was about. Had you put your name at the bottom of the e-mail, I would've used your name.
>
> -=-Yes, he does get out every week....movies, eating places,parks.-=-
>
> Good. Thanks for clarifying. Would more than once a week help? Maybe he's home too much.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I started the post on another group for unschoolers (AU) I can go through some of the responses if you want tomorrow.-=-
There's a big difference between this group and that one. If that gap is closing, that's fine, but I take no responsibility for advise given there.
-=- I can go through some of the responses if you want tomorrow.-=-
Why? I wanted to establish that this wasn't some failure of mine to be available every single day. (And except for camping in France where I didn't have internet at night, or being on planes, I was available.)
Asking for ideas is wonderful.
Blaming others for the outcome is less wonderful.
It's been many years since you've been unschooling. I hope you're reading the discussion between problems, too.
Thanks, Lisa C, for clarifying.
-=-The comment about the TV- I believe someone commented that your post sounded as if there was an assumption that your husband should have more right to the new, big tv, than your son, and he should have equal (not more or less) right to use it as anyone else.-=-
Had I been there, I would have objected to that advice. If the husband bought a big TV, he SHOULD have more right to use it than the son, especially if there's another TV in the house. Especially if things aren't smooth and sweet at home.
I have some equipment and musical instruments and games that are mine. I have an iPad and nobody else in the family does. I have more right to use my things than other people do. Because it's clear that it's mine, I can be (and I am) generous in sharing them. If someone else assured others in my family that no, everyone else had as much right to them as I did, that would be bad advice. If I accepted that bad advice, it would remove my choice to say "mine" or to share. If someone else imposed that very bad advice on me against my will, then I might be as unhappy as everyone else in the house. I might not want to stay there.
Lisa wrote: -=- At most, I think it was suggested that your son may learn compassion for others, and take others' needs into consideration, but that he first had to trust that he was being shown compassion and having his needs taken seriously.-=-
Maybe he could use the TV all the time his dad's at work. But when his dad's home, he should ask if it's a good time, and accept no for an answer. Maybe the parents could say "This was a mistake we made. This isn't sharing."
If the situation is such as this point that he's not listening to the parents, a counsellor might be able to help negotiate a different way of seeing and behaving in the situation.
-=-I am home too much! I feel like we are in prison. We had to get rid of a car and buy another one but my husband uses it sunday-wedsnesday. -=-
I'm going to throw the "have to" link in here: http://sandradodd.com/haveto
I don't know whether you had to sell two cars to buy a new one or what, but it sounds like you only had one car before, too. You don't need to clarify for us, but clarify for you.
Find the positives. Three days a week, you have access to a car! Maybe you can plan on getting out, maybe far away--day trips, or overnights. Let your husband have some recuperation time with his big TV, or sleeping. He's working a lot. If he comes home to people who are depressed and feeling imprisoned, and resentful, and angry, how many more hundred times is he going to even come home? This does need to be improved. Counselling is way less expensive than divorce lawyers and the aftermath of that.
Find abundance now before you have less abundance to find.
http://sandradodd.com/abundance
-=-It depressed me not having a car. Hopefully when i get some estate money i will get a car.-=-
It sounds helpless and hopeless. But you said you're going out once a week. You can't depend on hope and maybe and someday to improve this moment, now.
Maybe you and your son could brainstorm some ways to make your husband's arrival at home comfortable and happy. Just talking about it will be happier than not. And it might up the level of awareness and empathy and compassion altogether.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
Find positives. Create positives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There's a big difference between this group and that one. If that gap is closing, that's fine, but I take no responsibility for advise given there.
-=- I can go through some of the responses if you want tomorrow.-=-
Why? I wanted to establish that this wasn't some failure of mine to be available every single day. (And except for camping in France where I didn't have internet at night, or being on planes, I was available.)
Asking for ideas is wonderful.
Blaming others for the outcome is less wonderful.
It's been many years since you've been unschooling. I hope you're reading the discussion between problems, too.
Thanks, Lisa C, for clarifying.
-=-The comment about the TV- I believe someone commented that your post sounded as if there was an assumption that your husband should have more right to the new, big tv, than your son, and he should have equal (not more or less) right to use it as anyone else.-=-
Had I been there, I would have objected to that advice. If the husband bought a big TV, he SHOULD have more right to use it than the son, especially if there's another TV in the house. Especially if things aren't smooth and sweet at home.
I have some equipment and musical instruments and games that are mine. I have an iPad and nobody else in the family does. I have more right to use my things than other people do. Because it's clear that it's mine, I can be (and I am) generous in sharing them. If someone else assured others in my family that no, everyone else had as much right to them as I did, that would be bad advice. If I accepted that bad advice, it would remove my choice to say "mine" or to share. If someone else imposed that very bad advice on me against my will, then I might be as unhappy as everyone else in the house. I might not want to stay there.
Lisa wrote: -=- At most, I think it was suggested that your son may learn compassion for others, and take others' needs into consideration, but that he first had to trust that he was being shown compassion and having his needs taken seriously.-=-
Maybe he could use the TV all the time his dad's at work. But when his dad's home, he should ask if it's a good time, and accept no for an answer. Maybe the parents could say "This was a mistake we made. This isn't sharing."
If the situation is such as this point that he's not listening to the parents, a counsellor might be able to help negotiate a different way of seeing and behaving in the situation.
-=-I am home too much! I feel like we are in prison. We had to get rid of a car and buy another one but my husband uses it sunday-wedsnesday. -=-
I'm going to throw the "have to" link in here: http://sandradodd.com/haveto
I don't know whether you had to sell two cars to buy a new one or what, but it sounds like you only had one car before, too. You don't need to clarify for us, but clarify for you.
Find the positives. Three days a week, you have access to a car! Maybe you can plan on getting out, maybe far away--day trips, or overnights. Let your husband have some recuperation time with his big TV, or sleeping. He's working a lot. If he comes home to people who are depressed and feeling imprisoned, and resentful, and angry, how many more hundred times is he going to even come home? This does need to be improved. Counselling is way less expensive than divorce lawyers and the aftermath of that.
Find abundance now before you have less abundance to find.
http://sandradodd.com/abundance
-=-It depressed me not having a car. Hopefully when i get some estate money i will get a car.-=-
It sounds helpless and hopeless. But you said you're going out once a week. You can't depend on hope and maybe and someday to improve this moment, now.
Maybe you and your son could brainstorm some ways to make your husband's arrival at home comfortable and happy. Just talking about it will be happier than not. And it might up the level of awareness and empathy and compassion altogether.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
Find positives. Create positives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 5, 2012, at 1:26 AM, troubadour4me wrote:
The more you focus on what you have, what you can do with it ... it's a path that leads to greater happiness than the path that faces everything you don't have.
I've scanned back through some of your older posts and so much is about wanting to fix him, stop him, change him. It might be an ingrained part of your view of life. It could be he feels that. I could be that he feels constantly wrong which is bound to make anyone feel like struggling to be themselves.
Maybe shift your view from fixing him to focusing on what need he's trying to meet in these ways that are bothersome. And then work to find multiple ways to meet his needs in ways that are safe, respectful (of him and others) and doable.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am home too much! I feel like we are in prison.Then get out more. A car isn't necessary for getting out. Build, do things in the backyard. Bring the world to your yard. Be out there in the yard with your son (and other kids?).
The more you focus on what you have, what you can do with it ... it's a path that leads to greater happiness than the path that faces everything you don't have.
I've scanned back through some of your older posts and so much is about wanting to fix him, stop him, change him. It might be an ingrained part of your view of life. It could be he feels that. I could be that he feels constantly wrong which is bound to make anyone feel like struggling to be themselves.
Maybe shift your view from fixing him to focusing on what need he's trying to meet in these ways that are bothersome. And then work to find multiple ways to meet his needs in ways that are safe, respectful (of him and others) and doable.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
otherstar
>>>>>>>I am home too much! I feel like we are in prison. We had to get ridDon’t hinge your happiness on getting a car. Even if you get a car, there is
>>>>>>>of a car and buy another one but my husband uses it
>>>>>>>sunday-wedsnesday. So he if off thurs,fri,sat. I had my car every day
>>>>>>>and we got out more. It depressed me not having a car. Hopefully when
>>>>>>>i get some estate money i will get a car.<<<<<<<
a possibility that your son may not want to get out as much as you. Four or
five years ago, I was in your shoes. I was so convinced that having a car
would fix all of my problems. When we got another car, the girls didn’t want
to go out so I felt like I was right back where I started. It was a
miserable way to live.
Fast forward to today, I have a car but we rarely go out because my girls
get easily overwhelmed (so do I for that matter) by large crowds. I have
found ways to bring the world to us. I try to have lots of options for
things to do at home. I invite my nieces and nephews to come over. My mom
stops by periodically to hang out with us. I spend lots of time sitting on
the porch watching the kids play. I chat with the neighbor whenever I see
her out. I write on my blog. I have picked up an instrument. I participate
in online discussions. When I get to feeling trapped, I ask my husband to
hang out with the girls and I go off by myself for a couple of hours. I call
my friends and family. There are lots of ways to open up the world. For me,
once I opened up my world, it became a lot easier to NOT get into power
struggles with the girls. A lot of the power struggles that I had with the
girls many years ago stemmed directly from my feelings of feeling trapped
and out of control. We were butting heads because we were all trying to find
a way to feel like we had some control. We were in direct competition with
each other. Now I see staying home as a choice that brings peace to the
family.
I haven’t seen the link to Sandra’s page on control posted yet:
http://sandradodd.com/control
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krissy Dawson
Having a son with delays due to a serious speech and language disorder, we absolutely got medical/ therapeutic help. I don't know where you live, what state or country. But, here in Florida, you can do it how you like after knowing what he issues are. And you can get him some great help and new tools to manage his ways. He may always struggle with these compulsions if he is on the autism spectrum, which is what it sounds like to me. ( my son was initially diagnosed as being on the spectrum at age 2 but he has a speech disorder that has symptoms that present as ASD, so he was receiving occupational therapy which really really helped in his younger years of 2-3). We encountered many ASD kids and I have several friends who have ASD kids who sound very much like your son. And they are wonderful kids! Therapy helps them to learn to handle the world that they are having trouble handling. They and you,need to learn how to make life enjoyable and how to live this new life. And to better understand him and how his brain works. Through therapy, you and he will learn that. I'm betting that, as my friend's kids learned, once you learn how he sees the world and how to help him through that and how to help yourself through that, you all will gain much insight and hope as a family. It won't be a magic cure but receiving therapy, we used the DIR/ Floortime method my Dr. Greenspan- we were able to help our family so much with this model. I would highly recommend the book Engaging Autism or books on sensory processing disorder, and professional therapy to have a better idea of what is going on with him. If he had a physical disease that was hindering or hurting his life, I know you would get him medical treatment ASAP, his mental health is JUST as important to make him feel safe, happy, healthy and hopeful.
I wish the best for you and these are only my thoughts and observations from reading your posts. I highly highly recommend an evaluation by a developmental/ neurological pediatrician. Here in the states, that is free. And therapy here can be free as well. For us, the Floortime method changed our lives and opened our son up and he is a talking machine now! His articulation is still difficult but boy oh boy has he grown in his speech and language! He can now talk and share his thoughts, communicate like a little child. It's wonderful. And some of that has come through therapy and much of that has come from us and him! You can have control over his mental health and not have the "system" have ultimate say because YOU have the power to stop it if you like. Don't allow that fear to stop you all from enjoying a joyful and manageable life. He needs that. He needs understanding and joy. Feel free to email me if you ever want to talk or have questions
Best wishes,
Krissy
Sent from my iPad
I wish the best for you and these are only my thoughts and observations from reading your posts. I highly highly recommend an evaluation by a developmental/ neurological pediatrician. Here in the states, that is free. And therapy here can be free as well. For us, the Floortime method changed our lives and opened our son up and he is a talking machine now! His articulation is still difficult but boy oh boy has he grown in his speech and language! He can now talk and share his thoughts, communicate like a little child. It's wonderful. And some of that has come through therapy and much of that has come from us and him! You can have control over his mental health and not have the "system" have ultimate say because YOU have the power to stop it if you like. Don't allow that fear to stop you all from enjoying a joyful and manageable life. He needs that. He needs understanding and joy. Feel free to email me if you ever want to talk or have questions
Best wishes,
Krissy
Sent from my iPad
Krissy Dawson
Oh, and may I add to what I just posted. I meant to add in there in the beginning that, it is not about each individual fixation.. its not about the remote, or tv, or curtains or freckles....it is a greater issue that needs to be addressed in order to help him handle his thoughts and fixations. Because they will keep shifting and being redirected to another unless you know how to help him and your family with his mental health.
Krissy
Sent from my iPad
Krissy
Sent from my iPad
troubadour4me
okay your right but when we say to him Lukas you can have the curtains closed to such and such time or some days he wants them closed ALL the time...every day and when we tell him we are going share so we all are happy....he pitches a fit! Same with the t.v. it's an all or nothing his way or the highway mess.
--- In [email protected], Lisa Celedon <lisajceledon@...> wrote:
>
> <<<
> I was asked why i couldn't let him have that control.That if i allow him the control his need for it will go away. It was posted on here while you were away. Not to long ago.
> >>>>>
>
> I remember that conversation, but only on the Always Unschooled list because I was not on this list at the time. If I remember correctly, someone pointed out that based on your email it sounded as if you were insisting on control as well (he needs the curtains closed, you need them open, etc.) and that to your son, you probably appear as the one who was controlling, and that his behavior may be a result from feeling that his needs are not respected or taken seriously (based on the tone of your post). There were suggested ways to accommodate his needs (like sunglasses), and I think mostly the responses were geared toward having you reflect on what your needs really are, and how can you and your son work together to meet each other's needs. He may have a need for some control, and is it possible for you to let him have that.
>
> The comment about the TV- I believe someone commented that your post sounded as if there was an assumption that your husband should have more right to the new, big tv, than your son, and he should have equal (not more or less) right to use it as anyone else.
>
> I don't recall anyone suggesting that you give full control of the house, or the tv, to your son. At most, I think it was suggested that your son may learn compassion for others, and take others' needs into consideration, but that he first had to trust that he was being shown compassion and having his needs taken seriously. That doesn't mean give him his way all the time regardless of the impact on others, or to give him control over what others in the household can or can't do. That isn't kind to anyone.
>
> From what you've written in both instances, it sounds like you are trying to appease him, to keep him from getting angry or exploding- and that you are not happy with the measures you're having to take to accomplish that. I think it's one thing to accommodate his needs as much as you can because you want to be kind and considerate of him- it's another thing entirely to do it out of fear of handling his big, angry emotions.
>
>
> Lisa C
>
> On Oct 4, 2012, at 2:26 PM, "troubadour4me" <ronniegreek@...> wrote:
>
> > Yes they did Sandra. I was asked why i couldn't let him have that control.That if i allow him the control his need for it will go away. It was posted on here while you were away. Not to long ago. All the curtains in the room have to be closed. we can't sit on the couch because he sleeps on it and has to have it made a certain way. If we try to do anything in there he pitches a bloody screaming fit. yelling i hate you and worse.god forid we have company and someone tries to sit on the couch! We do try to keep him quiet because my neighbor friend has said she hears him screaming,cussing us. She came over and talked to him. It did help.
> >
> > --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@> wrote:
> > >
> > > -=- plus, the new t.v. can only be used by him. I got advice to let him have that control. okay...we did-=-
> > >
> > > Did people really say that you should allow Lukas to have the new tv all to himself? That doesn't sound right.
> > >
> > > -=-He asks when they will go away. I told him everything i could think of...they are beautiful...they will go away.-=-
> > >
> > > But he doesn't think they're beautiful.
> > > And they might not go away.
> > >
> > > Does he get out and play with other kids? Do you go places? Does he see other people with freckles? Does your husband have freckles, or you? Cousins, uncles? Can you visit them?
> > >
> > > -=-This is driving us nuts. It's all we hear about all day and night! What should we do?-=
> > >
> > > Maybe instead of avoiding it, you should immerse yourselves in freckles imagary and lore and reality. ALL about freckles, LOTS.
> > >
> > > This page isn't in beautifully-formatted shape yet, but there are counsellors who can help who aren't local, who are unschoolers or are involved with unschoolers.
> > >
> > > http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
> > >
> > > Try that before going to local people, maybe. I recommend Michelle, for this, of that set of people.
> > >
> > > Sandra
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Lisa Celedon
<<<<
okay your right but when we say to him
That was the spirit behind the previous advice you were given, I'm not sure if you gave it a try and found that it made no difference in his response (and you don't need to answer that).
Also, when you're feeling in particular need of sunshine, have you thought of stepping outside? Invite him to take a walk with you? Can you take a walk on your own if he doesn't want to accompany you? If he is unhappy or unable to meet you halfway on these issues (for whatever reason), maybe you need some new ideas of how to meet your needs.
You mentioned that having your neighbor come and speak with him about how his yelling bothers her seemed to make a difference. That suggests to me that he's not incapable of taking other people's feelings into consideration. Or maybe he doesn't want her to come back and talk to him again.
It does sound like everyone is unhappy in the situation, and that you need some outside help. I would go the route Sandra recommended first. Labels (such as OCD, or autism) may be less helpful than simply trying to understand who your son is, and the dynamics of what is happening in your family. If you're in a position where you are unable to help him without a label, it may be helpful then.
If you are worried that he may physically hurt himself, don't delay in getting help.
Lisa C
Sent from my iPhone
okay your right but when we say to him
>>>>>I wonder if it would make a difference if instead of telling him when the curtains will be opened or shut for the sake of sharing, you ask him for his input. You understand that he likes them closed, but you also like the sunshine coming into the house, and you'd like to figure out a way to share that will make you both happy. Have (calm) conversations about his preferences and yours, and your husband's, what you have in common, what is different, to understand and learn about one another.
That was the spirit behind the previous advice you were given, I'm not sure if you gave it a try and found that it made no difference in his response (and you don't need to answer that).
Also, when you're feeling in particular need of sunshine, have you thought of stepping outside? Invite him to take a walk with you? Can you take a walk on your own if he doesn't want to accompany you? If he is unhappy or unable to meet you halfway on these issues (for whatever reason), maybe you need some new ideas of how to meet your needs.
You mentioned that having your neighbor come and speak with him about how his yelling bothers her seemed to make a difference. That suggests to me that he's not incapable of taking other people's feelings into consideration. Or maybe he doesn't want her to come back and talk to him again.
It does sound like everyone is unhappy in the situation, and that you need some outside help. I would go the route Sandra recommended first. Labels (such as OCD, or autism) may be less helpful than simply trying to understand who your son is, and the dynamics of what is happening in your family. If you're in a position where you are unable to help him without a label, it may be helpful then.
If you are worried that he may physically hurt himself, don't delay in getting help.
Lisa C
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 5, 2012, at 8:00 AM, "troubadour4me" <ronniegreek@...> wrote:
> okay your right but when we say to him
Sandra Dodd
-=-okay your right but when we say to him Lukas you can have the curtains closed to such and such time or some days he wants them closed ALL the time...every day and when we tell him we are going share so we all are happy....he pitches a fit! Same with the t.v. it's an all or nothing his way or the highway mess.-=-
Heather, when someone says "Yeah, but..." it means "no."
"okay your right but " means something like "la la la la I'm not listening."
You're complaining to us about your kid who id keeping you from being happy, who pitches a fit, who causes your life to be a mess.
People are offering you ideas and you're saying "yeah but."
This makes me think that maybe you're doing that at home, only blaming unschoolers for giving you bad advice. Blaming Always Learning for advice you got somewhere else. Blaming me for not being around.
You've been asking for ideas for many years. Is it possible that you're looking for a set of rules rather than for help understanding how to live by principles?
http://sandradodd.com/rules
If aftter so many years you're not able to made decisions based on principles, it might be that you need some more personal, more particular help.
I looked up your membership to see how long you've been on the list. It only shows a current membership from 2010, but I remember corresponding with you years back, and sending a package. This current membership is only set for special notices, too, so I hope sometime you're coming to the site to read, even when you don't need the reminder. Maybe you could at least subscribe to Just Add Light and Stir.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
Even a little bit more peace and patience will be more.
But I don't think at this point at little bit is enough. I would rather that you contact Michelle Barone or one of those other counsellors than to keep writing about how the ideas here aren't going to work. I think you're right. I think you need a reset, a new direction.
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather, when someone says "Yeah, but..." it means "no."
"okay your right but " means something like "la la la la I'm not listening."
You're complaining to us about your kid who id keeping you from being happy, who pitches a fit, who causes your life to be a mess.
People are offering you ideas and you're saying "yeah but."
This makes me think that maybe you're doing that at home, only blaming unschoolers for giving you bad advice. Blaming Always Learning for advice you got somewhere else. Blaming me for not being around.
You've been asking for ideas for many years. Is it possible that you're looking for a set of rules rather than for help understanding how to live by principles?
http://sandradodd.com/rules
If aftter so many years you're not able to made decisions based on principles, it might be that you need some more personal, more particular help.
I looked up your membership to see how long you've been on the list. It only shows a current membership from 2010, but I remember corresponding with you years back, and sending a package. This current membership is only set for special notices, too, so I hope sometime you're coming to the site to read, even when you don't need the reminder. Maybe you could at least subscribe to Just Add Light and Stir.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
Even a little bit more peace and patience will be more.
But I don't think at this point at little bit is enough. I would rather that you contact Michelle Barone or one of those other counsellors than to keep writing about how the ideas here aren't going to work. I think you're right. I think you need a reset, a new direction.
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
What happens after he 'pitches the fit?'
On Oct 5, 2012 8:00 AM, "troubadour4me" <ronniegreek@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> okay your right but when we say to him Lukas you can have the curtains
> closed to such and such time or some days he wants them closed ALL the
> time...every day and when we tell him we are going share so we all are
> happy....he pitches a fit! Same with the t.v. it's an all or nothing his
> way or the highway mess.
>
> --- In [email protected], Lisa Celedon <lisajceledon@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > <<<
> > I was asked why i couldn't let him have that control.That if i allow him
> the control his need for it will go away. It was posted on here while you
> were away. Not to long ago.
> > >>>>>
> >
> > I remember that conversation, but only on the Always Unschooled list
> because I was not on this list at the time. If I remember correctly,
> someone pointed out that based on your email it sounded as if you were
> insisting on control as well (he needs the curtains closed, you need them
> open, etc.) and that to your son, you probably appear as the one who was
> controlling, and that his behavior may be a result from feeling that his
> needs are not respected or taken seriously (based on the tone of your
> post). There were suggested ways to accommodate his needs (like
> sunglasses), and I think mostly the responses were geared toward having you
> reflect on what your needs really are, and how can you and your son work
> together to meet each other's needs. He may have a need for some control,
> and is it possible for you to let him have that.
> >
> > The comment about the TV- I believe someone commented that your post
> sounded as if there was an assumption that your husband should have more
> right to the new, big tv, than your son, and he should have equal (not more
> or less) right to use it as anyone else.
> >
> > I don't recall anyone suggesting that you give full control of the
> house, or the tv, to your son. At most, I think it was suggested that your
> son may learn compassion for others, and take others' needs into
> consideration, but that he first had to trust that he was being shown
> compassion and having his needs taken seriously. That doesn't mean give him
> his way all the time regardless of the impact on others, or to give him
> control over what others in the household can or can't do. That isn't kind
> to anyone.
> >
> > From what you've written in both instances, it sounds like you are
> trying to appease him, to keep him from getting angry or exploding- and
> that you are not happy with the measures you're having to take to
> accomplish that. I think it's one thing to accommodate his needs as much as
> you can because you want to be kind and considerate of him- it's another
> thing entirely to do it out of fear of handling his big, angry emotions.
> >
> >
> > Lisa C
> >
> > On Oct 4, 2012, at 2:26 PM, "troubadour4me" <ronniegreek@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes they did Sandra. I was asked why i couldn't let him have that
> control.That if i allow him the control his need for it will go away. It
> was posted on here while you were away. Not to long ago. All the curtains
> in the room have to be closed. we can't sit on the couch because he sleeps
> on it and has to have it made a certain way. If we try to do anything in
> there he pitches a bloody screaming fit. yelling i hate you and worse.god
> forid we have company and someone tries to sit on the couch! We do try to
> keep him quiet because my neighbor friend has said she hears him
> screaming,cussing us. She came over and talked to him. It did help.
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > -=- plus, the new t.v. can only be used by him. I got advice to let
> him have that control. okay...we did-=-
> > > >
> > > > Did people really say that you should allow Lukas to have the new tv
> all to himself? That doesn't sound right.
> > > >
> > > > -=-He asks when they will go away. I told him everything i could
> think of...they are beautiful...they will go away.-=-
> > > >
> > > > But he doesn't think they're beautiful.
> > > > And they might not go away.
> > > >
> > > > Does he get out and play with other kids? Do you go places? Does he
> see other people with freckles? Does your husband have freckles, or you?
> Cousins, uncles? Can you visit them?
> > > >
> > > > -=-This is driving us nuts. It's all we hear about all day and
> night! What should we do?-=
> > > >
> > > > Maybe instead of avoiding it, you should immerse yourselves in
> freckles imagary and lore and reality. ALL about freckles, LOTS.
> > > >
> > > > This page isn't in beautifully-formatted shape yet, but there are
> counsellors who can help who aren't local, who are unschoolers or are
> involved with unschoolers.
> > > >
> > > > http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
> > > >
> > > > Try that before going to local people, maybe. I recommend Michelle,
> for this, of that set of people.
> > > >
> > > > Sandra
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-You mentioned that having your neighbor come and speak with him about how his yelling bothers her seemed to make a difference. That suggests to me that he's not incapable of taking other people's feelings into consideration. Or maybe he doesn't want her to come back and talk to him again.-=-
When I read that about the neighbor, what I thought was that maybe the parents have a long history of ineffectual communications with him, or that there is an impasse and a lot of power struggle, but that he was able to hear ideas from an outsider and consider them.
I've been in situations where I was the outsider in a situation who could interpret for two parties in a family whose communication was all gummed up.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When I read that about the neighbor, what I thought was that maybe the parents have a long history of ineffectual communications with him, or that there is an impasse and a lot of power struggle, but that he was able to hear ideas from an outsider and consider them.
I've been in situations where I was the outsider in a situation who could interpret for two parties in a family whose communication was all gummed up.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-What happens after he 'pitches the fit?'-=-
Lyla, I don't want people to need to report any more than they choose to in the first place. Heather's further reports of what's going wrong aren't going to help her.
I would rather we put our attention into helping back up way, way before anyone has lost it.
Sandra
Lyla, I don't want people to need to report any more than they choose to in the first place. Heather's further reports of what's going wrong aren't going to help her.
I would rather we put our attention into helping back up way, way before anyone has lost it.
Sandra
efdm4now
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
When I was a girl and spent my summers helping on my grandparent's farm, I FRECKLED. Freckles, freckles freckles... I'm in my 40s now and I still have a bunch of them. They don't always vanish.
My grandmother had freckles too.... Freckles on freckles from working in the fields. Her skin looked so dark from her freckles that sometime people believed she was of African descent (actually she was Palentine German).
She believed they were angel kisses given to her as comfort during hard days and reminders of the beauty of the world she was experiencing. Even on her deathbed, she talked of all the angels that kissed her and how she was finally going to be with them.
I know that your son may not feel as enamored by his freckles (ever) as my grandmother was, but maybe he will find some comfort in the story.
--Eden
>[snipped]
>I'm not sure if I directly have any suggestions to make here, but having had a lot of experience with freckles (including the trying to remove them at any cost once), I hope you won't mind a tale...
> -=-This is driving us nuts. It's all we hear about all day and night! What should we do?-=
>
> Maybe instead of avoiding it, you should immerse yourselves in freckles imagary and lore and reality. ALL about freckles, LOTS.
>
When I was a girl and spent my summers helping on my grandparent's farm, I FRECKLED. Freckles, freckles freckles... I'm in my 40s now and I still have a bunch of them. They don't always vanish.
My grandmother had freckles too.... Freckles on freckles from working in the fields. Her skin looked so dark from her freckles that sometime people believed she was of African descent (actually she was Palentine German).
She believed they were angel kisses given to her as comfort during hard days and reminders of the beauty of the world she was experiencing. Even on her deathbed, she talked of all the angels that kissed her and how she was finally going to be with them.
I know that your son may not feel as enamored by his freckles (ever) as my grandmother was, but maybe he will find some comfort in the story.
--Eden
troubadour4me
~~~~ From what you've written in both instances, it sounds like you are
He also makes comments or screams out in public. Once his dad took him to burger king and they were inside at a table. He got angry when he got his chicken nuggets and there was something yucky with one and he screamed--this is bullsh*t...god damn it!! Of course everyone looked. He is always doing this when he's with his dad somewhere. Making comments to people. An elderly lady said hello young man to him and he said hi then she said something else just being nice and he told her to get a life! Don't take him anywhere? Then he's cooped up here. I am so stressed out. How do you deal with these things without punishments? When we ask him why he says these things, he says i don't know. He's not dumb, he is very smart. I do need to call that woman Sandra mentioned.
> trying to appease him, to keep him from getting angry or exploding- andLisa, This is spot on. How to handle his big,angry emotions....let him yell it out? He doesn't let up. He will go and on.
> that you are not happy with the measures you're having to take to
> accomplish that. I think it's one thing to accommodate his needs as much as
> you can because you want to be kind and considerate of him- it's another
> thing entirely to do it out of fear of handling his big, angry emotions.
> >
> >
> > Lisa C
He also makes comments or screams out in public. Once his dad took him to burger king and they were inside at a table. He got angry when he got his chicken nuggets and there was something yucky with one and he screamed--this is bullsh*t...god damn it!! Of course everyone looked. He is always doing this when he's with his dad somewhere. Making comments to people. An elderly lady said hello young man to him and he said hi then she said something else just being nice and he told her to get a life! Don't take him anywhere? Then he's cooped up here. I am so stressed out. How do you deal with these things without punishments? When we ask him why he says these things, he says i don't know. He's not dumb, he is very smart. I do need to call that woman Sandra mentioned.
Lisa Celedon
<<<<<He doesn't let up. He will go and on.
He also makes comments or screams out in public. Once his dad took him to burger king and they were inside at a table. He got angry when he got his chicken nuggets and there was something yucky with one and he screamed--this is bullsh*t...god damn it!!
Though his response (yelling profanities) to the chicken nuggets was socially unacceptable, I think it's reasonable to be upset when the food you order shows up "yucky." Just as there are standards of public behavior, there are standards of customer service. I myself am pretty particular about food, and can't stomach something that is *off* for me. I still feel so disappointed when paying for a meal (we don't eat out often), and what I get doesn't meet my expectations. As a child it felt devastating.
He needs help learning how to respond to such situations. The offending nugget could have been taken to the counter and asked to be replaced. Maybe seeing that solving the problem was as simple as that would help him not need to lose it next time.
My son is very wary of strangers and does not like when they speak directly to him- he often shouts in response "stop talking to me!" he's almost three, and though people are understanding that he is young, and recognize his discomfort, sometimes they are offended. In either case, I apologize, "I'm sorry he shouted at you," and if they are interested in continuing a friendly exchange (and my son doesn't show a sign of being uncomfortable that I am talking to them), I chat pleasantly with them. He may or may not get involved as well. If he is not comfortable with me talking to them, I follow up my apology with, "I'm not able to chat right now." I want to validate his discomfort and show a polite way out. Some strangers are very disrespectful of children- touching his hair, for example- and I think a child (or anyone for that matter) needs some tools to distance themselves from an uncomfortable situation. Currently, for both our sons, that is yelling. With help, that can change. I realize that there has been a fair amount of yelling in my own household, so that has formerly been established as an appropriate means of communicating. Being polite to the people we meet is a way I can provide an example of social behavior in public to my own son. As embarassing as it when my son yells at someone (or myself) in public, I don't avoid it for that reason. In fact, that would be robbing him of an opportunity to learn how to appropriately respond to strangers in public- especially if he wants to be out. If your son wants to go out, he should. It's up to you to provide the opportunity to learn how to deal with these situations in public, you (or his father) are his guide.
If you respond to his rudeness with more rudeness or punishment, you're being hypocritical. He probably sees that, and it may be contributing to his frustration.
Being polite to him, and taking his feelings seriously (such as when he is upset about a messed up nugget), and helping him find a solution (like replacing the nugget) is a better way to help him learn politeness and consideration for others.
It sounds like you are looking for ways to help yourself "manage" or "deal with" who your son is, instead of accepting who he is and seeking solutions to help him respond to his family and the world in socially acceptable ways. I'm not sure any advice anyone gives you will help until you learn to value who he is and what he wants.
Lisa C
He also makes comments or screams out in public. Once his dad took him to burger king and they were inside at a table. He got angry when he got his chicken nuggets and there was something yucky with one and he screamed--this is bullsh*t...god damn it!!
>>>>>>It sounds like he yells and is angry longer than you're comfortable with. I think you are looking for someone to validate how you feel about it. Therapy.
Though his response (yelling profanities) to the chicken nuggets was socially unacceptable, I think it's reasonable to be upset when the food you order shows up "yucky." Just as there are standards of public behavior, there are standards of customer service. I myself am pretty particular about food, and can't stomach something that is *off* for me. I still feel so disappointed when paying for a meal (we don't eat out often), and what I get doesn't meet my expectations. As a child it felt devastating.
He needs help learning how to respond to such situations. The offending nugget could have been taken to the counter and asked to be replaced. Maybe seeing that solving the problem was as simple as that would help him not need to lose it next time.
My son is very wary of strangers and does not like when they speak directly to him- he often shouts in response "stop talking to me!" he's almost three, and though people are understanding that he is young, and recognize his discomfort, sometimes they are offended. In either case, I apologize, "I'm sorry he shouted at you," and if they are interested in continuing a friendly exchange (and my son doesn't show a sign of being uncomfortable that I am talking to them), I chat pleasantly with them. He may or may not get involved as well. If he is not comfortable with me talking to them, I follow up my apology with, "I'm not able to chat right now." I want to validate his discomfort and show a polite way out. Some strangers are very disrespectful of children- touching his hair, for example- and I think a child (or anyone for that matter) needs some tools to distance themselves from an uncomfortable situation. Currently, for both our sons, that is yelling. With help, that can change. I realize that there has been a fair amount of yelling in my own household, so that has formerly been established as an appropriate means of communicating. Being polite to the people we meet is a way I can provide an example of social behavior in public to my own son. As embarassing as it when my son yells at someone (or myself) in public, I don't avoid it for that reason. In fact, that would be robbing him of an opportunity to learn how to appropriately respond to strangers in public- especially if he wants to be out. If your son wants to go out, he should. It's up to you to provide the opportunity to learn how to deal with these situations in public, you (or his father) are his guide.
If you respond to his rudeness with more rudeness or punishment, you're being hypocritical. He probably sees that, and it may be contributing to his frustration.
Being polite to him, and taking his feelings seriously (such as when he is upset about a messed up nugget), and helping him find a solution (like replacing the nugget) is a better way to help him learn politeness and consideration for others.
It sounds like you are looking for ways to help yourself "manage" or "deal with" who your son is, instead of accepting who he is and seeking solutions to help him respond to his family and the world in socially acceptable ways. I'm not sure any advice anyone gives you will help until you learn to value who he is and what he wants.
Lisa C
On Oct 5, 2012, at 9:20 PM, "troubadour4me" <ronniegreek@...> wrote:
> He doesn't let up. He will go and on.
> He also makes comments or screams out in public. Once his dad took him to burger king and they were inside at a table. He got angry when he got his chicken nuggets and there was something yucky with one and he screamed--this is bullsh*t...god damn it!!
otherstar
>>>>>>>>>He also makes comments or screams out in public. Once his dad tookFirst, be more selective about where you go. I have girls that have very big
>>>>>>>>>him to burger king and they were inside at a table. He got angry
>>>>>>>>>when he got his chicken nuggets and there was something yucky with
>>>>>>>>>one and he screamed--this is bullsh*t...god damn it!! Of course
>>>>>>>>>everyone looked. He is always doing this when he's with his dad
>>>>>>>>>somewhere. Making comments to people. An elderly lady said hello
>>>>>>>>>young man to him and he said hi then she said something else just
>>>>>>>>>being nice and he told her to get a life! Don't take him anywhere?
>>>>>>>>>Then he's cooped up here. I am so stressed out. How do you deal
>>>>>>>>>with these things without punishments? When we ask him why he says
>>>>>>>>>these things, he says i don't know. He's not dumb, he is very
>>>>>>>>>smart. I do need to call that woman Sandra mentioned. <<<<<<<<
emotions and get overwhelmed rather easily. If home is a boring, crappy
place, then, yes, it will seem like being at home is being cooped up. Make
home a comfortable, sparkly, safe place. You can do that without lots of
money. Rearrange the furniture, paint the walls if possible, use bedding to
hang in doorways, see if there is a freecycle list in your area, or spread
the word among friends and family that you are on the look out for
free/cheep stuff that is interesting. And sometimes, you can get lots of
cool free stuff online.
The commenting and screaming out in public could be a sign that he is
overwhelmed. We will not eat inside a restaurant. We go through the drive
through and eat in the car, at a park, or at home. If the order gets screwed
up or if there is something wrong with the food, my husband or I can go in
and deal with it in a peaceful manner. If we want fancier food, my husband
will pick it up and bring it home and we sit around the coffee table and
eat. If we go places, we try to plan it so that we are there at off times
because I know that huge crowds in confined places will create problems. If
somebody talks to the girls, especially the ones that I know are likely to
say something inappropriate, I will step in immediately and run
interference. If they do say something inappropriate, I apologize to the
person that it was directed at and then get the kid out of the situation
immediately. One of my girls flipped somebody off when we were waiting in
line at the check out one day. I apologized to the lady and then took my
daughter to the car immediately to get her out of that situation. My husband
and I were together so I let him pay for everything. That is something else
that we do is try to go out as a family as often as possible so that one of
us can escape with one or more kids if necessary and the other person can
tie up loose ends, check out, or whatever.
Don’t expect kids, especially those with big emotions to be able to express
why they do things. I have one daughter that will cry for no apparent
reason. Sometimes she will tell me what is on her mind and sometimes she
will shrug and say she doesn’t know. During those times, I try to insulate
her and give her a safe space to have her emotions. If you live in a space
where he can’t be loud or expressive, take him somewhere that he can run and
scream and be loud whether it is a park or someplace else. Having to keep
all of those big emotions inside at home must be rough and it sets up a
situation where he is walking around ready to explode. Look for some free
activities that would allow him to get really physical and aggressive. Maybe
the two of you could take up running or something. I know it is possible to
do stuff on a limited budget with no car. It may take some creativity but it
is possible.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I do need to call that woman Sandra mentioned. -=-
A couple of days ago.
-=- Once his dad took him to burger king and they were inside at a table. He got angry when he got his chicken nuggets and there was something yucky with one and he screamed--this is bullsh*t...god damn it!! Of course everyone looked. -=-
Then use the drive-through. Take him more often, maybe, so that one order of chick nuggets isn't such a powerful trigger.
I suspect that if we were to be able to say "What happened before that?" and "before that?" in some of the situations you're describing, there might be other factors winding him up.
I also think maybe you, the mom, are stuck on repeating the frustrations rather than changing the actions. I could be wrong, but I don't need to know. I hope a counselor can help you, or maybe your neighbor, or someone who could advise you on how to change the patterns in your communications.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A couple of days ago.
-=- Once his dad took him to burger king and they were inside at a table. He got angry when he got his chicken nuggets and there was something yucky with one and he screamed--this is bullsh*t...god damn it!! Of course everyone looked. -=-
Then use the drive-through. Take him more often, maybe, so that one order of chick nuggets isn't such a powerful trigger.
I suspect that if we were to be able to say "What happened before that?" and "before that?" in some of the situations you're describing, there might be other factors winding him up.
I also think maybe you, the mom, are stuck on repeating the frustrations rather than changing the actions. I could be wrong, but I don't need to know. I hope a counselor can help you, or maybe your neighbor, or someone who could advise you on how to change the patterns in your communications.
Sandra
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plaidpanties666
Lisa Celedon <lisajceledon@...> wrote:
Hmmm, there's a problem with the way that's stated and it's that repeated frustration isn't a good setup for learning. That's something we saw when Ray was little - he was sooooooo social that it didn't seem right to keep him away from social situations... except that he had such a hard time he didn't learn anything positive and it was really hard on his self-esteem. It helped to be more considerate of his real capabilities - keep him home and socialize with him there and only take him out when an adult could focus on him and helping him negotiate the world and other people. Sometimes that meant not taking him grocery shopping (for instance) because I didn't have the energy to deal with Ray in a store - keeping him talking and busy so he wouldn't suddenly climb the displays or run the cart into someone.
That's been true for Mo, too, although in different ways. She doesn't explode, she shuts down - turns into a statue, sort of. It has been more helpful to notice the kinds of situations which shut her down and manage them for her - steer her in a particular direction, or leave quickly, or (if the problem isn't social, but a need to make a choice) bring a book and sit down so she's not feeling pressured to perform and can go through her own process at her leisure.
There's something in between "robbing kids of opportunities to learn" and "setting them up to fail" and it involves having a sense of those situations where your kid can't have a good experience and actively looking for ways to... not to prevent an explosion (or shut-down), but prevent the emotional factors which come right before the explosion. Solve problems Before they get too big for a kid to handle.
What allowed that kind of thing to work with Ray was making sure he wasn't so stressed out in the first place - which took a lot of attention for awhile! He needed to see problems being solved much sooner in the course of things or he was likely to snap - and with social stuff that meant keeping things small.
For something like the situation with the nugget, it might have meant me checking all his food carefully to make sure it was within acceptable parameters... although realistically, food wasn't an issue for Ray, it is for Mo - and it was for my partner as a child; both his parents have stories about double-checking his food to make sure it was presented correctly lest he come completely unglued and be unable to eat. For Ray, the environment would have been the issue, so if he was getting stressed, we'd go through the drive-through and not tried to eat inside.
Heather wrote:
Lisa wrote:
---Meredith
> As embarassing as it when my son yells at someone (or myself) in public, I don't avoid it for that reason. In fact, that would be robbing him of an opportunity to learn how to appropriately respond to strangers in public- especially if he wants to be out.*****************
Hmmm, there's a problem with the way that's stated and it's that repeated frustration isn't a good setup for learning. That's something we saw when Ray was little - he was sooooooo social that it didn't seem right to keep him away from social situations... except that he had such a hard time he didn't learn anything positive and it was really hard on his self-esteem. It helped to be more considerate of his real capabilities - keep him home and socialize with him there and only take him out when an adult could focus on him and helping him negotiate the world and other people. Sometimes that meant not taking him grocery shopping (for instance) because I didn't have the energy to deal with Ray in a store - keeping him talking and busy so he wouldn't suddenly climb the displays or run the cart into someone.
That's been true for Mo, too, although in different ways. She doesn't explode, she shuts down - turns into a statue, sort of. It has been more helpful to notice the kinds of situations which shut her down and manage them for her - steer her in a particular direction, or leave quickly, or (if the problem isn't social, but a need to make a choice) bring a book and sit down so she's not feeling pressured to perform and can go through her own process at her leisure.
There's something in between "robbing kids of opportunities to learn" and "setting them up to fail" and it involves having a sense of those situations where your kid can't have a good experience and actively looking for ways to... not to prevent an explosion (or shut-down), but prevent the emotional factors which come right before the explosion. Solve problems Before they get too big for a kid to handle.
> He needs help learning how to respond to such situations. The offending nugget could have been taken to the counter and asked to be replaced. Maybe seeing that solving the problem was as simple as that would help him not need to lose it next time.**************
What allowed that kind of thing to work with Ray was making sure he wasn't so stressed out in the first place - which took a lot of attention for awhile! He needed to see problems being solved much sooner in the course of things or he was likely to snap - and with social stuff that meant keeping things small.
For something like the situation with the nugget, it might have meant me checking all his food carefully to make sure it was within acceptable parameters... although realistically, food wasn't an issue for Ray, it is for Mo - and it was for my partner as a child; both his parents have stories about double-checking his food to make sure it was presented correctly lest he come completely unglued and be unable to eat. For Ray, the environment would have been the issue, so if he was getting stressed, we'd go through the drive-through and not tried to eat inside.
Heather wrote:
> He is always doing this whenIs there something about being with his dad that stresses him out and makes it harder for him to be nice? Is his dad really critical or have expectations Lukas can't meet? I seem to remember that there has been some ongoing friction with his dad... maybe I'm remembering that wrong, but it's something to think about.
>he's with his dad somewhere. Making comments to people.
Lisa wrote:
>>taking his feelings seriously (such as when he is upset about a >>messed up nugget)and I wonder how dad responded - what's his usual pattern of response when Lukas gets emotional? Does he try to talk him out of it? If he's saying "oh, come on, it's no big deal, it's just a nugget" that's not helping! It may even make things worse in the sense that Lukas feels compelled to make as big an issue as possible to try to convince his dad Just How Important This Is! That might be why he "goes on and on" - have you tried commiserating? really try to see his perspective not just try to soothe him and shut him up?
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-There's something in between "robbing kids of opportunities to learn" and "setting them up to fail" and it involves having a sense of those situations where your kid can't have a good experience and actively looking for ways to... not to prevent an explosion (or shut-down), but prevent the emotional factors which come right before the explosion. Solve problems Before they get too big for a kid to handle. -=-
From my point of view if one member of a group, team or family goes off in public, the group should handle it quickly, or someone in the group should.
There have been people who have suggested that unschoolers are great because they don't care if kids behave badly. That was said by parents of children who behaved badly, and rather than figure out how to help the child, they wanted to find a group of people who wouldn't object.
It's not my job to be a practice-stranger for kids to use to learn how to behave with other people. It's real life. There's not practice. There's behavior.
Sandra
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From my point of view if one member of a group, team or family goes off in public, the group should handle it quickly, or someone in the group should.
There have been people who have suggested that unschoolers are great because they don't care if kids behave badly. That was said by parents of children who behaved badly, and rather than figure out how to help the child, they wanted to find a group of people who wouldn't object.
It's not my job to be a practice-stranger for kids to use to learn how to behave with other people. It's real life. There's not practice. There's behavior.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=- As embarassing as it when my son yells at someone (or myself) in public, I don't avoid it for that reason. In fact, that would be robbing him of an opportunity to learn how to appropriately respond to strangers in public- especially if he wants to be out. If your son wants to go out, he should. It's up to you to provide the opportunity to learn how to deal with these situations in public, you (or his father) are his guide.-=-
I disagree with this. If our son wants to go out and is likely to yell at someone (or you), say you're willing to go but he needs to try not to yell at anyone. If he yells, maybe be more hesitant about going out the next time.
The guiding and coaching should take place in advance, not after he's yelled at strangers.
-=- I'm not sure any advice anyone gives you will help until you learn to value who he is and what he wants.-=-
Even advice about trying to value who he is and what he wants? :-)
Sandra
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I disagree with this. If our son wants to go out and is likely to yell at someone (or you), say you're willing to go but he needs to try not to yell at anyone. If he yells, maybe be more hesitant about going out the next time.
The guiding and coaching should take place in advance, not after he's yelled at strangers.
-=- I'm not sure any advice anyone gives you will help until you learn to value who he is and what he wants.-=-
Even advice about trying to value who he is and what he wants? :-)
Sandra
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