always.october

Y'all are an honest bunch. :-) I appreciate your candor and your insights.

Here's my second question -- does this sound empowering or ill-advised?

My 15 year old is at the point at which he would officially be classified as a high schooler. You all have already picked up on the fact that I have a control problem, so predictably I had my ideas about what classes my son should take and when. I was fine with him having a choice but only within certain parameters -- because I knew best and couldn't take a chance of him not following The Plan. My husband has stepped in and emphatically squashed The Plan, and I'm scared and liberated all at the same time. Here is a synopsis of our conversation:

Me: "So I think he should take these classes this year, and then the next year these classes, and then the next year..."

My husband, looking at the piece of paper I've charted this out on: "Where does [our son] get to choose? There's no room left for him to study what he wants."

Me, in a "But you don't understand..." tone of voice: "He *has* to take this, and this, and this, and..."

My husband: "Why?"

Me: "This is what he'll need in order to get into college."

My husband: "Do I look like I *care* what some checklist says he needs? I want him to have the choice of what he studies. I want him to take ownership of his education. He's said he wants to study computers. Let him fill his time with that. Find him classes at the community college. Just let him be in the driver's seat."

Me: [Silence, pondering the significance of this and unable to deny the feeling of great freedom it gives both my son and me.]

Conventional wisdom says that this is lunacy. You can't not plan. But it feels right at the deepest levels. My husband's philosophy is that our son has the rest of his life to meet college requirements if he's so inclined, and that they should not constitute a box that he is forced to live in.

Thoughts?

Lucy

Sandra Dodd

-=-Here's my second question -- does this sound empowering or ill-advised?-=-

None of it sounds at all like unschooling.

-=-Conventional wisdom says that this is lunacy. You can't not plan. But it feels right at the deepest levels. My husband's philosophy is that our son has the rest of his life to meet college requirements if he's so inclined, and that they should not constitute a box that he is forced to live in.-=-

If you want to know more about unschooling, read at my site and Joyce's.
You're asking us to define unschooling. This discussion is for people who are already committed to it.

You seem to be planning to tell your son (falsely) that he can't get into college unless he takes high school classes. It's patently not true.

If you're interested in classes (even computer classes--WHY? Get him a computer and he can read about computers on the internet), you won't be ableto get unschooling.

Not getting unschooling is find; it's no crime. Letting your son take computer classes is fine if he wants to.
Sending him to a military boarding school is fine.

None of that is unschooling, and so you shouldn't expect people on this list to say "good idea" about any of it.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/teens

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

always.october

I apologize, sincerely. I was under the impression (erroneously) that this was a site not just for committed unschoolers but for those interested in learning more about it. Again, I'm sorry.

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> None of it sounds at all like unschooling.

> If you want to know more about unschooling, read at my site and Joyce's.

> You're asking us to define unschooling. This discussion is for people who are already committed to it.

>
> If you're interested in classes (even computer classes--WHY? Get him a computer and he can read about computers on the internet), you won't be ableto get unschooling.

>
> None of that is unschooling, and so you shouldn't expect people on this list to say "good idea" about any of it.

Robin Bentley

On Jul 27, 2012, at 10:28 AM, always.october wrote:

> Y'all are an honest bunch. :-) I appreciate your candor and your
> insights.
>
That's it? Did you want to talk about how those insights might work
for your family before we get to the next question?

It seems like you didn't think really carefully about what list
members were saying. It's like "Oh, thanks. Now on to the rest of my
agenda." Otherwise, you would have thought a bit more about this
second post before you said, "Conventional wisdom says that this is
lunacy. You can't not plan. But it feels right at the deepest levels."

Before you can unschool, you will really need to understand the
philosophy better (by reading what Sandra and Joyce have on their
sites, links which you have) and ask questions on how you - if you
really want to be an unschooling parent - can change *yourself* to
help your kids.

*At the deepest levels" unschooling is about your attitude and your
beliefs. If you are unwilling to start there, no technique or tool or
question answered will help you become an unschooling parent.

Robin B.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I apologize, sincerely. I was under the impression (erroneously) that this was a site not just for committed unschoolers but for those interested in learning more about it. Again, I'm sorry.-=-

You should at least be committed to learning about it.

The description of the group says this: "This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based on the principles underlying unschooling."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/

Your question about which classes you and your husband should make or allow your son to take isn't an unschooling question.

If you honestly do want to move toward unschooling, you're welcome to stay and ask questions, but slowing down might be helpful.

Please read about stages of unschooling, here:
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2012/07/stages-of-unschooling.html
and
http://sandradodd.com/stages/

Let those ideas percolate.
Perhaps re-read what people have written in response to your questions here.

Read a little, try a little.
Wait a while.
Watch.

You seem to be doing what many people do who are attached to the idea of school-style teaching. You think if you ask enough questions and we answer and you read those questions that you will know about unschooling, and that by that you can become an unschooler.

That is not the way it works.

It's more like riding a bicycle. All the reading in the world can't give you a feel for keeping your balance on a moving bike. It's like dancing. You can't read your way to dancing.

The relationship between you and your son will need to change before unschooling can work, and that can't happen in a day, or a week. It probably can't happen in less than a year, but it CAN happen, if you want to. And if you want to, please stay on the list, and please read all the links and responses, twice, and think about those things in your life as if you've never, ever heard them before, because they are valuable and there's not another place as good as this to learn them.

Sandra

It doesn't seem you're reading the links people are sending.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

"always.october" <always.october@...> wrote:
>> Conventional wisdom says that this is lunacy. You can't not plan.

Sure you can - conventional education itself does that by providing students with a "well rounded" education, something designed to offer dribs of this and that, depending on what's in vogue, in hopes it will do someone some good somewhere. And it doesn't work very well.

> Me: "This is what he'll need in order to get into college."

Actually, colleges look to homeschoolers to provide diversity in the student body - they want kids who Don't look just like everyone else, with the same coursework and grades as all the other kids. They want to see some kids who've followed their real interests and have a real passion for learning as a result - because they get better grades and because it keeps the teachers sane (among other reasons).

>>He's said he wants to study computers. Let him fill his time with that. Find him classes at the community college. Just let him be in the driver's seat.
*****************

Or online classes or even just doing projects of his own - the sorts of things he probably does already. What sorts of things does he want to do with computers? Invest some time in finding out what his specific interests are so you can invest some money in making sure he has the best materials you can afford for him to work with. Consider that money spent on homeschool supplies.

>>I have a control problem

Find something for You - plant a garden, or start a club, or volunteer, or become a church secretary. Do something that lets you exert control over something other than your kid. Maybe take some classes at a local community college and consider getting a degree of some kind.

---Meredith

in4mkaren

Can you clarify about classes, please, Sandra? I've read about unschooling for years, and I haven't heard before that unschooling was incompatible with formal instruction. Maybe I'm misunderstanding? I thought unschooling was was in essence learning anywhere, anyway you choose, according to what works best for you at the time. Maybe "free learning" is a more appropriate term for that idea? I never thought there was a difference between that and unschooling before.

People learn differently. I need other people to talk to. I can only learn so much from reading by myself. My son needs time alone, no friends, no parents, at key points when learning something new. He also chooses to take Tae Kwon Do classes and robotics classes. That's not compatible with your definition of unschooling?

Thanks for the clarification.

Karen


--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Here's my second question -- does this sound empowering or ill-advised?-=-
>
> None of it sounds at all like unschooling.
>
> -=-Conventional wisdom says that this is lunacy. You can't not plan. But it feels right at the deepest levels. My husband's philosophy is that our son has the rest of his life to meet college requirements if he's so inclined, and that they should not constitute a box that he is forced to live in.-=-
>
> If you want to know more about unschooling, read at my site and Joyce's.
> You're asking us to define unschooling. This discussion is for people who are already committed to it.
>
> You seem to be planning to tell your son (falsely) that he can't get into college unless he takes high school classes. It's patently not true.
>
> If you're interested in classes (even computer classes--WHY? Get him a computer and he can read about computers on the internet), you won't be ableto get unschooling.
>
> Not getting unschooling is find; it's no crime. Letting your son take computer classes is fine if he wants to.
> Sending him to a military boarding school is fine.
>
> None of that is unschooling, and so you shouldn't expect people on this list to say "good idea" about any of it.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
> http://sandradodd.com/teens
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=I've read about unschooling for years, and I haven't heard before that unschooling was incompatible with formal instruction. Maybe I'm misunderstanding? -=-

You thought it was compatible with going to school, or doing school at home?

-=- I thought unschooling was was in essence learning anywhere, anyway you choose, according to what works best for you at the time.-=-

Nah. That's just 'whatever.' That sounds like a justification for calling anything and everything "unschooling."

-=-Maybe "free learning" is a more appropriate term for that idea? -=-

Why have a term like "free learning"? No advantage.

-=- He also chooses to take Tae Kwon Do classes and robotics classes. That's not compatible with your definition of unschooling?-=-

Those aren't taken out of fear that he won't keep up with kids his age in school, are they?
It seems you're arguing in favor of someone's assertion that her pressure on her teen to take college prep classes should be considered unschooling.

Any posts on this list should be toward helping people unschooling better, and understanding unschooling more clearly, not muddling it up. Maybe you didn't mean to muddle it up, but it seems you want to bring a vague "in essence" definition and equate Taw Kwon Do to school at home.

If you want to clarify your question, that might be helpful.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

in4mkaren

I found the answer to my question here: http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/stages

Regarding Stage 3 of unschooling:
"This is the stage when classes and instruction may eke back into our lives, as it recently has in our family's. We don't give more weight to the learning that is happening in Sociology-101 or karate or bee-keeping just because it's happening in a classroom situation. A class is just another means of pursuing our passions, making the connections, and receiving the information. Learning happens all the time in all places—*even* in a classroom!

"I don't want to give the impression that acceptance of class/book learning automatically makes you a Radical Unschooler. Stage III cannot "just happen": you'll have to go through Stages I and II first...."

Although our original poster has a lot to learn if she chooses unschooling, having a conversation with her son about how he wants to learn computers (if that's what he wants to pursue) and whether he wants to take computer classes, per her husband's suggestion, seems like a baby step in the right direction and would be a good idea? http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange


> Why have a term like "free learning"? No advantage.

We use the term "free learning" because I think it's more open than a term like "unschooling" which defines based on what one is against. A prejudice against formal instruction (meaning a lecture or lab class format, not forced schooling) is as problematic as a prejudice against any other form of learning (see quote above). The term "unschooling" doesn't have to come with that prejudice but I find it can be confusing to my kids and non-unschoolers on that point.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 28, 2012, at 9:02 AM, in4mkaren wrote:

> I haven't heard before that unschooling was incompatible with formal instruction.


Any quick answer to that will cause a muddle.

The real answer lies not in how a child chooses to learn but in *why* a child is choosing that way.

Classes are one among many options for learning. For people -- parents or kids -- who are still school-thinking, classes will be high on their list of ways to learn something. It's what they've been trained to understand as learning. It *feels* like learning to them. It's what they'll think of first when they (or their child) wants to learn something. They will also believe they must prepare themselves with the basics before they can learn the stuff they're interested in.

(If mom or dad isn't confident in learning by freely exploring interests, they can be irritable as kids play hours of video games and text with their friends, then burst with excitement when a kid says they want to learn something that sounds like school or take a class. It doesn't take people-pleasing kids long to realize they're being "good" and making the "right" choices when they do something that looks like school.)

Once someone is free of the school mind-set, then taking a class is like watching a documentary. They're taking it because it sounded like a fun way to learn something they're interested in.

Taking a Tae Kwon Do class is a lot more fun than learning from a book or a video. The class is not a means to get somewhere else. It's taken for its own enjoyment.

Kat took her father's college statistics class when she was 14ish (maybe younger). *I* considered *her* still unschooling since she was doing it purely out of interest, could drop it whenever it wasn't fun, wasn't merely a stepping stone to what she really wanted to do.

But it would confuse people if I held that up as an example of unschooling or said kids can take classes and still be unschooling. Many of the people reading are still in the school mind set. It wouldn't be unexpected if someone reacted with: "So unschooling can be kids taking school classes? What a relief!"

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 27, 2012, at 1:28 PM, always.october wrote:

> does this sound empowering or ill-advised?

What your husband is suggesting sounds more empowering than your ideas. It doesn't, though, sound like unschooling.

We're not here to make people toe the unschooling line. We're not here to make people believe the only way they can be "right" is to radically unschool. We're here to help people who've already decided radical unschooling is what's right for them figure out how to make it work.

The list can also be useful for people who want to find out about unschooling. They can read. They can ask respectful question to clarify their understanding of unschooling.

But the list isn't a place for people to post ideas to get "good idea/bad idea" type of feedback. You're get "moving in the direction of unschooling, but here's what will steer you more directly" or "moving away from unschooling, and undermining what you're supposedly here to move toward."

> My husband, looking at the piece of paper I've charted this out on:
> "Where does [our son] get to choose? There's no room left for him to study what he wants."

An unschooler might ask the same question with "explore" rather than "study". Study is focused and goal oriented. If someone steps off to explore something that catches their eye, takes a different path, they're "wrong." For unschoolers, exploring can be a question, a 6 month plunge into living and breathing an interest, a book, talking to someone, dropping it for something else more interesting, picking it up again in 3 years or 15 years or never. For unschoolers interests, explorations -- and the learning that comes as a side effect from that -- are fluid.

> My husband: "Do I look like I *care* what some checklist says he needs? I want him to have the choice of what he studies. I want him to take ownership of his education. He's said he wants to study computers. Let him fill his time with that. Find him classes at the community college. Just let him be in the driver's seat."

It sounds like your husband wants to support Independent Study. It's more like what college is supposed to be: a place to fully focus on the study of a specific interest. (Though with so many kids pressured into college as the next mandatory step after high school, college can be not much different from high school :-/)

If that's what your son wants too, that would work for him. It wouldn't be unschooling though, so we can't help you with it here.

> Conventional wisdom says that this is lunacy.

Independent Study has been around for a long time. It works well for kids who are wired to have very focused interests and enjoy learning in a very focused way.

Unschooling kids who are wired like that will do that naturally. But for kids who aren't wired like that, it would be as confining as school.

Unschooling looks like doing whatever someone finds fun, interesting and challenging in a rich environment supportive of learning and who kids are. It can look like video games. It can look like talking with friends. It can look like reading through the encyclopedia ;-) (I was going to say Wikipedia, but I can't imagine anyone never clicking on a link. It would be incredibly stilted. Whereas it is possible to read a hard-copy encyclopedia in alphabetical order just for grins :-)

> You can't not plan

Anyone can.

You can too. At first it would be hard. It would be easier each time you made a thoughtful deliberate choice to do something unplanned.

But change is incredibly hard if not done because someone sees the change helping them achieve some benefit they can't get by not changing. Every choice has it's pluses and minuses. Learning without planning involves letting go of some things you might value. Unless you see a value far greater in more free flowing exploration, it will make change very very hard.

Unless you see value in free exploration, what's written on this list won't help you much.

> My husband's philosophy is that our son has the rest of his life to meet
> college requirements if he's so inclined, and that they should not
> constitute a box that he is forced to live in.

True.

And yet also not true. Your son can get into college without "college requirements." Unschoolers are exploring hands on. They're learning by doing. An unschooling narrative transcript of what they've been doing will look nothing like a school transcript of classes and grades. Yes, unschooled kids have even gotten into Harvard.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-Although our original poster has a lot to learn if she chooses unschooling, having a conversation with her son about how he wants to learn computers (if that's what he wants to pursue) and whether he wants to take computer classes, per her husband's suggestion, seems like a baby step in the right direction and would be a good idea? http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange-=-

If the boy is fifteen, they've run out of time to make very gradual changes.

The entire family will require deschooling if they want to have a year or two of real unschooling.

Gradual change involving semester-long courses of academic study allows for six such "babysteps" between now and when he's 18.

If someone is taking a large dose of poison every day, switching that to a small dose once a week is a baby step in a better direction, technically, at a stretch, but if they went to a group designed to help them be poison-free, it would be woefully TOO MUCH POISON.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 7:54 AM, in4mkaren <kasmail@...> wrote:

> The term "unschooling" doesn't have to come with that prejudice but I find
> it can be confusing to my kids and non-unschoolers on that point.


Can't you quickly explain to them the meaning? Growing up and learning
without schooling? Without being schooled? Without going to regular
conventional school? Without thinking of school as the place where the
child is supposed to learn what is important for him/her to learn?

Think of the word "unchained." It means not chained. If someone wears a
chain necklace, we know that person is not being "chained." When someone is
unschooled, going to a karate class or a ballet class doesn't make them
"schooled," either.

pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-> The term "unschooling" doesn't have to come with that prejudice but I find
it can be confusing to my kids and non-unschoolers on that point.-=-

Lots of words can be confusing. Refusing to use them and replacing them with created phrases doesn't help, though.

Suzanne Carter wrote something wonderful about "unschooling." I have on my list of things to do, to put a photo of her next to that quote. She's one of the group of people I corresponded with regularly when there were first unschoolers finding each other on the internet.

[To the frequently voiced complaint that the word "unschooling" seems negative, this was written years ago and has not been bested:]

"Lots of people make this point, but I never see the negation as negative in a value-judgment sense when I use the word--to me unschooling is as positive as unchaining, unbinding, unleashing, unfolding, unfurling, unlimiting....

"All mean freedom and growth and vast possibilities to me."


Suzanne Carter

http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> "Lots of people make this point, but I never see the negation as negative
> in a value-judgment sense when I use the word--to me unschooling is as
> positive as unchaining, unbinding, unleashing, unfolding, unfurling,
> unlimiting....



And other important ones:

unhurt, unharmed, undamaged, uninjured, uncontaminated, unimpaired,
unspoiled, unprejudiced, unbiased.

Unschooled sounds like a very positive thing - like the above - to someone
who has thoroughly grasped the truly negative effects of schooling.

-pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

in4mkaren

Thanks, Sandra. I see where you're coming from.

>>>> Can't you quickly explain to them the meaning? Growing up and learning without schooling? Without being schooled? Without going to regular conventional school? Without thinking of school as the place where the child is supposed to learn what is important for him/her to learn?<<<

Yes. I'm partly on this list because I have worked out my definitions and explanations about unschooling by reading but mostly without the refinement of conversation with other unschoolers, and now I want that refinement. I have gotten confused because I see ways I've typically explained or thought about what we do dismissed or not preferred in conversation on this list, which has led to my asking questions.

As much as I'd like the whole world to know that they don't need to stress out so much and can enjoy life with their kids, because of reading this list, I'm learning it's wiser sometimes to not explain unschooling to people and be much more generic.

I do use the term "unschool." I'm just more careful now who I use it with. I went too far talking badly about school around the time my son turned 5 or 6. I left such a bad impression about it that my son swore for years that he'd never choose to take any classes (which was funny because he was choosing to take gymnastics, day camp, etc...at the time). It also caused problems with our friends who schooled. I had to back off on talking badly about school because we were becoming chained by a judgmental attitude.

In "unhurt, unchained, undamaged" the "un's" are all connected to things that are inherently bad. If "unschooled" is to be compared with those, then that means school is inherently bad. I agree that compulsory school is destructive. Learning, by choice, in a large group setting with an instructor is not inherently poisonous, however, especially if you're unschooled from the beginning and don't have baggage associated with words like "school" or "teach." Maybe equating "unschooled" with "unbleached" is a better thought for me. Bleach can be dangerous and poisonous but can also be used, by choice, helpfully and creatively.

Thanks for taking time to discuss this with me.

Karen W.

Pam Sorooshian

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 5:57 AM, in4mkaren <kasmail@...> wrote:

> Learning, by choice, in a large group setting with an instructor is not
> inherently poisonous,


Schooling implies a lot of things, but "by choice," isn't one of them. It
implies there is a course of study determined by someone other than the
child. It implies there are teaching methods determined by someone other
than the child. It implies there are attendance requirements and assessment
methods.

Schooling does cause much harm, damage, hurt -- that is why John Holt
coined the term "unschooling" as in unharmed, undamaged, unhurt.

Taking a class by choice is not the same as going to school. Equating
taking a ballet or karate class with going to school is not clear thinking.

-pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I do use the term "unschool." I'm just more careful now who I use it with. I went too far talking badly about school around the time my son turned 5 or 6. I left such a bad impression about it that my son swore for years that he'd never choose to take any classes (which was funny because he was choosing to take gymnastics, day camp, etc...at the time). It also caused problems with our friends who schooled. I had to back off on talking badly about school because we were becoming chained by a judgmental attitude. -=-

When talking to people about why your child isn't in school, say homeschooled (or "home educated" if you're in the UK, or whatever other local designation there might be that's better).

Unschooling is too particular to use when talking to people who only wanted to know why your kids weren't in school.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

robinhstevenson

"Unschooling is too particular to use when talking to people who only wanted to know why your kids weren't in school.--Sandra"

This made me laugh... I agree, but my eight year old does not. So a typical interaction at the grocery store is the clerk asking if he has the day off school, me explaining that we homeschool, and my son saying loudly, "NO WE DON'T! WE UNSCHOOL!" Cue puzzled look from store clerk and the rest of the folks in the check out line....

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

IS that because you told him that you unschool and not homeschool? Or that you have talked about the differences to your 8 year old?

When asked we always say we homeschool. My kids have heard me talk about unschooling here and there but I never really explain to them what unschooling is and what we do. We just live life and when asked we homeschool. They have been going to homeschooling get together and things like that since little.


 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


________________________________
From: robinhstevenson <rhstevenson@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 9:40 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: My next question...


 
"Unschooling is too particular to use when talking to people who only wanted to know why your kids weren't in school.--Sandra"

This made me laugh... I agree, but my eight year old does not. So a typical interaction at the grocery store is the clerk asking if he has the day off school, me explaining that we homeschool, and my son saying loudly, "NO WE DON'T! WE UNSCHOOL!" Cue puzzled look from store clerk and the rest of the folks in the check out line....




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

robinhstevenson

--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> IS that because you told him that you unschool and not homeschool? Or that you have talked about the differences to your 8 year old?
>
>> Alex Polikowsky

He attended school for kindergarten and was involved in the decision to leave school and learn at home-- so we've talked in general terms about the range of approaches and diversity of ideas people have about learning and education. He's been to unschooling park days and an unschooling conference and he just latched onto the word-- perhaps because he disliked school and wants to be clear with people that our approach to living and learning is not-- as they often assume-- just doing school at home. I see homeschooling as a word that people will accept as an explanation of why he's not in school-- and I don't mind using it because I see it as an umbrella term encompassing a wide range of approaches, including unschooling. My son sees unschooling and homeschooling as distinctly different and thinks it is dishonest to say he homeschools since people then assume he does lessons and follows a curriculum. I see his point but don't want to get into it with strangers. He can if he wants though.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I agree, but my eight year old does not. So a typical interaction at the grocery store is the clerk asking if he has the day off school, me explaining that we homeschool, and my son saying loudly, "NO WE DON'T! WE UNSCHOOL!" -=-

Some years back a teenaged unschooler (who came to it later than my kids did) visited us. A couple of times he was with us when someone asked me (asked me) whether school was out (or one of those questions) and I when I used the word "homeschool," he physically put himself or his face in front of me and "corrected" me by saying "UNschooled"

It pissed me off.

It was rude to me, and it was rude to the other person, too.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

robinhstevenson

> Some years back a teenaged unschooler (who came to it later than my kids did) visited us. A couple of times he was with us when someone asked me (asked me) whether school was out (or one of those questions) and I when I used the word "homeschool," he physically put himself or his face in front of me and "corrected" me by saying "UNschooled"
>
> It pissed me off.
>
> It was rude to me, and it was rude to the other person, too.
>
> Sandra


Yes, I can see how it could be rude. I don't think my son sees himself as correcting as much as clarifying or explaining. He is concerned that saying "homeschooling" gives people an inaccurate idea about what we do. I sometimes will just say that we believe in self-directed learning to avoid using either word... I don't love the word unschooling, really, since it seems to define us by what we are not.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't think my son sees himself as correcting as much as clarifying or explaining. He is concerned that saying "homeschooling" gives people an inaccurate idea about what we do. I sometimes will just say that we believe in self-directed learning to avoid using either word... I don't love the word unschooling, really, since it seems to define us by what we are not. -=-

Maybe you could make a deal that if the person is asking you directly you can say what you want to say, and if the person is asking him directly he can say what he wants to say.

If someone's asking to be conversational, they would probably prefer to hear something they understand than something that would require an explanation. That would probably embarrass or frustrate them, and it's not polite or useful to do that.

That's what i would tell a child of mine, in way of explanation.

For unschooling, it's the term used in this discussion because it's been around for over 30 years and is associated with John Holt.

This might make you feel better about it: http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definitions

and here's something about the origin of the term:

http://sandradodd.com/unschool/theterm

Sandra

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robinhstevenson

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Maybe you could make a deal that if the person is asking you directly you can say what you want to say, and if the person is asking him directly he can say what he wants to say.
>
> If someone's asking to be conversational, they would probably prefer to hear something they understand than something that would require an explanation. That would probably embarrass or frustrate them, and it's not polite or useful to do that.
>
> That's what i would tell a child of mine, in way of explanation.
>
> For unschooling, it's the term used in this discussion because it's been around for over 30 years and is associated with John Holt.
>
> This might make you feel better about it: http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definitions
>
> and here's something about the origin of the term:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unschool/theterm
>
> Sandra
>

Hi and thanks for your response... The deal you suggested is exactly what we came up with-- seems a reasonable compromise and allows us both to handle things in our own way. I suspect that after having to explain a few times he may prefer to use the shorthand of the commonly understood expression- though maybe not, as accuracy in language has always been important to him.

The first link you posted didn't work, but I read the second-- really? The UnCola? That is hilarious. I had no idea. I love much of John Holt's writing-- he was one of the first people I read when we began considering alternatives to public school- and I found him enormously thought-provoking and inspiring.

Joyce Fetteroll

> I don't think my son sees himself as correcting as much as clarifying or
> explaining. He is concerned that saying "homeschooling" gives people
> an inaccurate idea about what we do.

Kids often also go through a stage of intense interest in there being special names for things they've learned to generalize.

I can remember Kathryn correcting me about a cat not being a cat but whatever specific breed it was. And I think it was around 5 or 6.

The better answer is that it's both. (And more since the cat undoubtedly has a name. :-)

So that might be another thing that's behind his need for accuracy.

Joyce

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