Two big questions: Race and identity, and socially unacceptable behavior
LydiaK
I have two issues I have been trying to deal with for a little while now unsuccessfully. One is that my four year old daughter, Nisa, loves blonde hair and white skin. I am Black and my husband is Jewish (White, but he likes to say Jewish). Nisa has fairly light skin and dark hair. She loves the Barbie movies and we have watched nearly every one together. I love many of them too, which is surprising because I didn't like Barbie much as a kid. Since getting into Barbie, Nisa has started saying that she wishes she had white skin and blonde hair almost every day. Today we were playing with shaving cream and water beads, and she rubbed the shaving cream on her arms and told me she now had white skin and was very happy about it. I lightly said "I liked your skin before." When she asked why, I said because she had skin that was a mix between mine and her dad's. I asked her what she thought of my skin and she said "Well I think it's kind of ugly." That hurt my feelings. I didn't say that to her, because I thought I might have been too emotionally charged and discounting her preferences in initiating that conversation to begin with, although I tried to stay as neutral as possible.
Having a daughter who wishes to be whiter has been triggering me in lots of ways. We haven't talked to her about race or history, although we do live in the South. As a kid, my parents talked to me LOTS about race and history, slavery, Jim Crow, and their own experiences etc.; and I don't want to do that with her in the same way because it made me feel very angry at a young age. My sister and I also went to a private school from 3rd-10th grade where we were the first Black students to attend (it was a school that was established in response to forced integration in 1969). It was very uncomfortable, and we were brought into the principal's office to talk about our race and how some students might treat us unkindly when we started school there. I was always on the lookout and on the defensive after that. So I am not sure that is a great approach. There were some incidents but in retrospect I wonder if they would have been easier to handle if I had been helped in gentler ways.
In my family growing up, if I had expressed the preferences Nisa has, my parents would have ridiculed me. My parents also often told us not to trust our White friends at school because they would eventually betray us. I think it might have been kinder to wait until there was an actual issue and then discuss it in that context than to set us up to be looking for those kinds of things. I could never really relax at that school and was glad when I left.
I might be tacking too much significance to her preferences, but I feel like she has learned from watching Barbie that having brown skin isn't as beautiful or as preferable as white skin. That she has somehow absorbed these messages from our culture, as depicted by Barbie. Then again, maybe it is as simple as she is identifying with a character she likes. I don't know. She had been asking me for a blonde wig for months and I did buy her one to play dress up in at home. I was happy to give it to her and to see her joy at having it. It really is no different than having a princess dress and pretending to be a princess, but my baggage keeps me from feeling that way sometimes.
On the one hand, I would like my daughter to get to just be a kid. I don't want to burden her with too much information or political and social justice issues. I just don't really know what is an appropriate way to deal with discussing race and identity with her, or if it is appropriate right now. Or how to discuss that beauty isn't only white skin and blonde hair, when that is her current model of beauty. Or how to deal with my own issues and not pass them along to her. I do think Barbie in the movies is beautiful and has many admirable qualities; but I wish my daughter thought of herself as beautiful just as she is! She really is a beautiful girl.
The other issue is how to deal with situations where my children are doing things that are socially unacceptable. This has come up several times on this list recently, and has been on my mind for a while as well. My biggest problem is that Nisa likes to eat dirt and sand. She will gleefully do it more if I tell her not to. She often shoves handfuls into her mouth before we go somewhere (while we are outside in the driveway about to get in the car), and sometimes when she is at the park or something like that. I tell her to stop firmly and take her hand from her mouth and clean her up. It is mortifying. I believe if people see her eating dirt, it will cause problems for our family. I don't understand why she does this; when I ask her she says because it tastes good.
My husband thinks Nisa's public dirt eating is no big deal. Just a couple of weeks ago, he took her to a neighbor's house to see some horses, and I wasn't there. He told me she was eating dirt from the driveway in front of the neighbor, whom we had just met that day; and that the neighbor said she should go back to our house and eat our dirt, expressing his discomfort. Maybe he was not that uncomfortable, I don't know because I wasn't there, but I imagine he was. My husband said he just laughed and did not stop her. She also picks her nose in public and I have told her that is impolite and I have also said "other people don't like to see that" and other short, informative phrases like that. I have also sometimes talked too much. She still does it; when I see her do it, I take her hand from her nose and often she will just go right back to doing it. I will offer her a tissue or a trip to the bathroom but she doesn't take me up on those often. Sometimes, with the dirt eating, I wonder if there is a deeper reason she is doing this--sometimes she will look right at me when she is doing it, like she wants to get my reaction, which is usually pretty horrified, especially if we are in public.
My husband, I should mention, frequently does not pick up on social cues. His father is the same way. So there could be a genetic predisposition, or it could be normal four year old behavior, or she could be feeling defiant in which case I need to figure out why . . . . Those are my main theories at the moment.
I suppose I should be calmer in my response, but continue to stop her from doing these things. Maybe I will have to keep stopping her over and over. But it seems to me that I am doing something wrong here. If I was doing this right, my daughter would be trusting me and not continuing to do something that is inappropriate. So far that is not happening.
Lydia Koltai
Having a daughter who wishes to be whiter has been triggering me in lots of ways. We haven't talked to her about race or history, although we do live in the South. As a kid, my parents talked to me LOTS about race and history, slavery, Jim Crow, and their own experiences etc.; and I don't want to do that with her in the same way because it made me feel very angry at a young age. My sister and I also went to a private school from 3rd-10th grade where we were the first Black students to attend (it was a school that was established in response to forced integration in 1969). It was very uncomfortable, and we were brought into the principal's office to talk about our race and how some students might treat us unkindly when we started school there. I was always on the lookout and on the defensive after that. So I am not sure that is a great approach. There were some incidents but in retrospect I wonder if they would have been easier to handle if I had been helped in gentler ways.
In my family growing up, if I had expressed the preferences Nisa has, my parents would have ridiculed me. My parents also often told us not to trust our White friends at school because they would eventually betray us. I think it might have been kinder to wait until there was an actual issue and then discuss it in that context than to set us up to be looking for those kinds of things. I could never really relax at that school and was glad when I left.
I might be tacking too much significance to her preferences, but I feel like she has learned from watching Barbie that having brown skin isn't as beautiful or as preferable as white skin. That she has somehow absorbed these messages from our culture, as depicted by Barbie. Then again, maybe it is as simple as she is identifying with a character she likes. I don't know. She had been asking me for a blonde wig for months and I did buy her one to play dress up in at home. I was happy to give it to her and to see her joy at having it. It really is no different than having a princess dress and pretending to be a princess, but my baggage keeps me from feeling that way sometimes.
On the one hand, I would like my daughter to get to just be a kid. I don't want to burden her with too much information or political and social justice issues. I just don't really know what is an appropriate way to deal with discussing race and identity with her, or if it is appropriate right now. Or how to discuss that beauty isn't only white skin and blonde hair, when that is her current model of beauty. Or how to deal with my own issues and not pass them along to her. I do think Barbie in the movies is beautiful and has many admirable qualities; but I wish my daughter thought of herself as beautiful just as she is! She really is a beautiful girl.
The other issue is how to deal with situations where my children are doing things that are socially unacceptable. This has come up several times on this list recently, and has been on my mind for a while as well. My biggest problem is that Nisa likes to eat dirt and sand. She will gleefully do it more if I tell her not to. She often shoves handfuls into her mouth before we go somewhere (while we are outside in the driveway about to get in the car), and sometimes when she is at the park or something like that. I tell her to stop firmly and take her hand from her mouth and clean her up. It is mortifying. I believe if people see her eating dirt, it will cause problems for our family. I don't understand why she does this; when I ask her she says because it tastes good.
My husband thinks Nisa's public dirt eating is no big deal. Just a couple of weeks ago, he took her to a neighbor's house to see some horses, and I wasn't there. He told me she was eating dirt from the driveway in front of the neighbor, whom we had just met that day; and that the neighbor said she should go back to our house and eat our dirt, expressing his discomfort. Maybe he was not that uncomfortable, I don't know because I wasn't there, but I imagine he was. My husband said he just laughed and did not stop her. She also picks her nose in public and I have told her that is impolite and I have also said "other people don't like to see that" and other short, informative phrases like that. I have also sometimes talked too much. She still does it; when I see her do it, I take her hand from her nose and often she will just go right back to doing it. I will offer her a tissue or a trip to the bathroom but she doesn't take me up on those often. Sometimes, with the dirt eating, I wonder if there is a deeper reason she is doing this--sometimes she will look right at me when she is doing it, like she wants to get my reaction, which is usually pretty horrified, especially if we are in public.
My husband, I should mention, frequently does not pick up on social cues. His father is the same way. So there could be a genetic predisposition, or it could be normal four year old behavior, or she could be feeling defiant in which case I need to figure out why . . . . Those are my main theories at the moment.
I suppose I should be calmer in my response, but continue to stop her from doing these things. Maybe I will have to keep stopping her over and over. But it seems to me that I am doing something wrong here. If I was doing this right, my daughter would be trusting me and not continuing to do something that is inappropriate. So far that is not happening.
Lydia Koltai
whisperingwindsacademy
Hello Lydia,
First off, I have no experience/help about eating dirt. (I do know a quick google search provides much info on it, and most did not seem too alarming)
Second, the nose picking... I have a four year old son, we deal with this on a daily basis. ;-) When I see he is doing that, I offer him a tissue, he normally declines, I then just tell him most people do not like to see that, and sometimes there are things in our nose we can not get out with just blowing and if he feels the need to use his finger, just please go into the bathroom.
This has been helping... he will be watching tv, get up go to the bathroom and come back real quick. I asked him if he is ok, and he says yes he just needed to get something out of his nose.
(not sure if that helps)
The race issue, I have experience here... but opposite of yours. I am white, with a very blended family. I have a daughter who is 19 and her father is black. I have another daughter who is 14 and her father is white. I pretty much raised them by myself (until about 5 years ago when I married a wonderful man, who loves them both equally with all his heart! I have always tried to teach them not to see color, we are all just human. I know realistically that does not always work. My oldest daughter, Cassie has identified more with black people. She choose to go to a college rich in black history in NC. Most all her friends are black or mixed. Her boyfriends are always black or mixed. My 14 year old, Alyssa has a wide variety of friends, white, black, asian etc.
Along with my wonderful husband came two new wonderful little boys. Nicholas is 4 and Ian is 3.
(my husband is white, well he has some native american indian in his recent back ground, so he is a little darker skinned then I am, and tans really easy and fast)
Nicholas looks just like his dad, and has his skin tone, and straight black hair.
Ian looks like my family light colored hair and curls, and dose not show a preference or seem to be aware of the differences.
Nicholas is very aware of the differences and has been since a very young age, and constantly prefers the black or mixed people in our life. He wishes he skin was darker like Cassie's. Her boyfriend is Nicholas's best friend in the world. (according to Nicholas) One of Alyssa's close friends (Deja who is black) Nicholas is always talking about her.
I realize I do not have the racial emotional baggage you do. So my thoughts are probably not as hurtful as yours can be. (and I mean you being hurt by her wanting to be more white)
I acknowledge Nicholas when he says these things, and respect his preferences and really just leave it at that. His tastes may change as he gets older and they may not. I tell him he is totally awesome the way he is, and say nothing more.
Not sure if this is helping you or not, I remember when Cassie was young and first started to gravitate towards more "black things". My family had issues with it, but I tried to explain there is no way for us to identify with her or know what she is feeling. She is absolutely beautiful no matter what, and I told my family I had to be supportive and respectful of her choices when it came to race issues.
My suggestion is love her, respect her preferences, support her in her choices, they may change with age, they may not. Do not take her preferences personal, they are her own. I do not think there is anything anyone can do or say to change them and why would you? ;-)
Stacey
First off, I have no experience/help about eating dirt. (I do know a quick google search provides much info on it, and most did not seem too alarming)
Second, the nose picking... I have a four year old son, we deal with this on a daily basis. ;-) When I see he is doing that, I offer him a tissue, he normally declines, I then just tell him most people do not like to see that, and sometimes there are things in our nose we can not get out with just blowing and if he feels the need to use his finger, just please go into the bathroom.
This has been helping... he will be watching tv, get up go to the bathroom and come back real quick. I asked him if he is ok, and he says yes he just needed to get something out of his nose.
(not sure if that helps)
The race issue, I have experience here... but opposite of yours. I am white, with a very blended family. I have a daughter who is 19 and her father is black. I have another daughter who is 14 and her father is white. I pretty much raised them by myself (until about 5 years ago when I married a wonderful man, who loves them both equally with all his heart! I have always tried to teach them not to see color, we are all just human. I know realistically that does not always work. My oldest daughter, Cassie has identified more with black people. She choose to go to a college rich in black history in NC. Most all her friends are black or mixed. Her boyfriends are always black or mixed. My 14 year old, Alyssa has a wide variety of friends, white, black, asian etc.
Along with my wonderful husband came two new wonderful little boys. Nicholas is 4 and Ian is 3.
(my husband is white, well he has some native american indian in his recent back ground, so he is a little darker skinned then I am, and tans really easy and fast)
Nicholas looks just like his dad, and has his skin tone, and straight black hair.
Ian looks like my family light colored hair and curls, and dose not show a preference or seem to be aware of the differences.
Nicholas is very aware of the differences and has been since a very young age, and constantly prefers the black or mixed people in our life. He wishes he skin was darker like Cassie's. Her boyfriend is Nicholas's best friend in the world. (according to Nicholas) One of Alyssa's close friends (Deja who is black) Nicholas is always talking about her.
I realize I do not have the racial emotional baggage you do. So my thoughts are probably not as hurtful as yours can be. (and I mean you being hurt by her wanting to be more white)
I acknowledge Nicholas when he says these things, and respect his preferences and really just leave it at that. His tastes may change as he gets older and they may not. I tell him he is totally awesome the way he is, and say nothing more.
Not sure if this is helping you or not, I remember when Cassie was young and first started to gravitate towards more "black things". My family had issues with it, but I tried to explain there is no way for us to identify with her or know what she is feeling. She is absolutely beautiful no matter what, and I told my family I had to be supportive and respectful of her choices when it came to race issues.
My suggestion is love her, respect her preferences, support her in her choices, they may change with age, they may not. Do not take her preferences personal, they are her own. I do not think there is anything anyone can do or say to change them and why would you? ;-)
Stacey
--- In [email protected], "LydiaK" <princessjasmine05@...> wrote:
>
> I have two issues I have been trying to deal with for a little while now unsuccessfully. One is that my four year old daughter, Nisa, loves blonde hair and white skin. I am Black and my husband is Jewish (White, but he likes to say Jewish). Nisa has fairly light skin and dark hair. She loves the Barbie movies and we have watched nearly every one together. I love many of them too, which is surprising because I didn't like Barbie much as a kid. Since getting into Barbie, Nisa has started saying that she wishes she had white skin and blonde hair almost every day. Today we were playing with shaving cream and water beads, and she rubbed the shaving cream on her arms and told me she now had white skin and was very happy about it. I lightly said "I liked your skin before." When she asked why, I said because she had skin that was a mix between mine and her dad's. I asked her what she thought of my skin and she said "Well I think it's kind of ugly." That hurt my feelings. I didn't say that to her, because I thought I might have been too emotionally charged and discounting her preferences in initiating that conversation to begin with, although I tried to stay as neutral as possible.
>
> Having a daughter who wishes to be whiter has been triggering me in lots of ways. We haven't talked to her about race or history, although we do live in the South. As a kid, my parents talked to me LOTS about race and history, slavery, Jim Crow, and their own experiences etc.; and I don't want to do that with her in the same way because it made me feel very angry at a young age. My sister and I also went to a private school from 3rd-10th grade where we were the first Black students to attend (it was a school that was established in response to forced integration in 1969). It was very uncomfortable, and we were brought into the principal's office to talk about our race and how some students might treat us unkindly when we started school there. I was always on the lookout and on the defensive after that. So I am not sure that is a great approach. There were some incidents but in retrospect I wonder if they would have been easier to handle if I had been helped in gentler ways.
>
> In my family growing up, if I had expressed the preferences Nisa has, my parents would have ridiculed me. My parents also often told us not to trust our White friends at school because they would eventually betray us. I think it might have been kinder to wait until there was an actual issue and then discuss it in that context than to set us up to be looking for those kinds of things. I could never really relax at that school and was glad when I left.
>
> I might be tacking too much significance to her preferences, but I feel like she has learned from watching Barbie that having brown skin isn't as beautiful or as preferable as white skin. That she has somehow absorbed these messages from our culture, as depicted by Barbie. Then again, maybe it is as simple as she is identifying with a character she likes. I don't know. She had been asking me for a blonde wig for months and I did buy her one to play dress up in at home. I was happy to give it to her and to see her joy at having it. It really is no different than having a princess dress and pretending to be a princess, but my baggage keeps me from feeling that way sometimes.
>
> On the one hand, I would like my daughter to get to just be a kid. I don't want to burden her with too much information or political and social justice issues. I just don't really know what is an appropriate way to deal with discussing race and identity with her, or if it is appropriate right now. Or how to discuss that beauty isn't only white skin and blonde hair, when that is her current model of beauty. Or how to deal with my own issues and not pass them along to her. I do think Barbie in the movies is beautiful and has many admirable qualities; but I wish my daughter thought of herself as beautiful just as she is! She really is a beautiful girl.
>
> The other issue is how to deal with situations where my children are doing things that are socially unacceptable. This has come up several times on this list recently, and has been on my mind for a while as well. My biggest problem is that Nisa likes to eat dirt and sand. She will gleefully do it more if I tell her not to. She often shoves handfuls into her mouth before we go somewhere (while we are outside in the driveway about to get in the car), and sometimes when she is at the park or something like that. I tell her to stop firmly and take her hand from her mouth and clean her up. It is mortifying. I believe if people see her eating dirt, it will cause problems for our family. I don't understand why she does this; when I ask her she says because it tastes good.
>
> My husband thinks Nisa's public dirt eating is no big deal. Just a couple of weeks ago, he took her to a neighbor's house to see some horses, and I wasn't there. He told me she was eating dirt from the driveway in front of the neighbor, whom we had just met that day; and that the neighbor said she should go back to our house and eat our dirt, expressing his discomfort. Maybe he was not that uncomfortable, I don't know because I wasn't there, but I imagine he was. My husband said he just laughed and did not stop her. She also picks her nose in public and I have told her that is impolite and I have also said "other people don't like to see that" and other short, informative phrases like that. I have also sometimes talked too much. She still does it; when I see her do it, I take her hand from her nose and often she will just go right back to doing it. I will offer her a tissue or a trip to the bathroom but she doesn't take me up on those often. Sometimes, with the dirt eating, I wonder if there is a deeper reason she is doing this--sometimes she will look right at me when she is doing it, like she wants to get my reaction, which is usually pretty horrified, especially if we are in public.
>
> My husband, I should mention, frequently does not pick up on social cues. His father is the same way. So there could be a genetic predisposition, or it could be normal four year old behavior, or she could be feeling defiant in which case I need to figure out why . . . . Those are my main theories at the moment.
>
> I suppose I should be calmer in my response, but continue to stop her from doing these things. Maybe I will have to keep stopping her over and over. But it seems to me that I am doing something wrong here. If I was doing this right, my daughter would be trusting me and not continuing to do something that is inappropriate. So far that is not happening.
>
> Lydia Koltai
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I might be tacking too much significance to her preferences, but I feel like she has learned from watching Barbie that having brown skin isn't as beautiful or as preferable as white skin. That she has somehow absorbed these messages from our culture, as depicted by Barbie. Then again, maybe it is as simple as she is identifying with a character she likes. I don't know. She had been asking me for a blonde wig for months and I did buy her one to play dress up in at home. I was happy to give it to her and to see her joy at having it. It really is no different than having a princess dress and pretending to be a princess, but my baggage keeps me from feeling that way sometimes. -=-
Queen Latifah wears blond wigs sometimes.
I have dark brown hair, which i always thought was boring and ugly. We had a stand-up old radio/record player when I was a kid, and the numbers and letters, on the face, were yellow. I could see my reflection in them, and it made my hair look blonde. I loved to look in there and wish I had blonde hair.
My husband was blond and vain about it, and has light blue eyes. The worst part of marrying me, I'm sure, was that our kids have brown eyes and darker hair--one as dark as mine, two lighter, but not blond.
It's been a consideration for a long, long time, whether people look like an ideal (which changes) or like their relatives. We can't change that.
In India there are commercials all over the place for lotions that lighten skin. They have a range of brown, from dark brown to light brown, and the lighter is preferable.
In the U.S. these days, people pay money to get browner (by tanning booth, skin lotions or sprays) because really-white isn't considered healthy looking.
In the U.S. when my grandmother was young, though, she wore gloves and bonnets when she worked outside so she wouldn't get at all tan.
Last night on 30 Rock, Henry Winckler (who used to play Fonzie) was playing a Jewish-hippie-dad character who was an author of kids' books and someone said his books were so cool and "urban" that they thought he must've been black, and he said "Thank you!"
There are kids in New Mexico who are anglo but who act and dress in ways that will lead people to believe they are Hispanic (or half Hispanic kids, like a dozen of my cousins and nephews, who don't identify with the anglo part of them At ALL).
It's not such a black-and-white issue. ;-)
I think accept it as a preference that might change or might not.
I think your instinct to wait until she starts to figure things out her own way, or actually has a problem, or asks questions.
Very often parents find themselves in a situation where they might not see a way to make things better, but they could easily make things worse.
Sandra
Queen Latifah wears blond wigs sometimes.
I have dark brown hair, which i always thought was boring and ugly. We had a stand-up old radio/record player when I was a kid, and the numbers and letters, on the face, were yellow. I could see my reflection in them, and it made my hair look blonde. I loved to look in there and wish I had blonde hair.
My husband was blond and vain about it, and has light blue eyes. The worst part of marrying me, I'm sure, was that our kids have brown eyes and darker hair--one as dark as mine, two lighter, but not blond.
It's been a consideration for a long, long time, whether people look like an ideal (which changes) or like their relatives. We can't change that.
In India there are commercials all over the place for lotions that lighten skin. They have a range of brown, from dark brown to light brown, and the lighter is preferable.
In the U.S. these days, people pay money to get browner (by tanning booth, skin lotions or sprays) because really-white isn't considered healthy looking.
In the U.S. when my grandmother was young, though, she wore gloves and bonnets when she worked outside so she wouldn't get at all tan.
Last night on 30 Rock, Henry Winckler (who used to play Fonzie) was playing a Jewish-hippie-dad character who was an author of kids' books and someone said his books were so cool and "urban" that they thought he must've been black, and he said "Thank you!"
There are kids in New Mexico who are anglo but who act and dress in ways that will lead people to believe they are Hispanic (or half Hispanic kids, like a dozen of my cousins and nephews, who don't identify with the anglo part of them At ALL).
It's not such a black-and-white issue. ;-)
I think accept it as a preference that might change or might not.
I think your instinct to wait until she starts to figure things out her own way, or actually has a problem, or asks questions.
Very often parents find themselves in a situation where they might not see a way to make things better, but they could easily make things worse.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Boogers and dirt...
Marty used to eat his boogers in front of the family, when he was little. I teased him out of it by offering to ask a friend of ours who worked at the zoo to save him some monkey boogers, or elephant boogers. I grossed him out gently, to help him see that he was grossing us out.
I told him he could do it in his own room, but not where other people were.
Sticking fingers in ANY holes in bodies, I used to say, was for privacy. Nobody wanted to see the insides of them, or what comes out of them, I'd tell them. So it wasn't a specific rule, it was a principle about bodily lumps and fluids, and about exploring our own orifices and parts.
Sandra
Marty used to eat his boogers in front of the family, when he was little. I teased him out of it by offering to ask a friend of ours who worked at the zoo to save him some monkey boogers, or elephant boogers. I grossed him out gently, to help him see that he was grossing us out.
I told him he could do it in his own room, but not where other people were.
Sticking fingers in ANY holes in bodies, I used to say, was for privacy. Nobody wanted to see the insides of them, or what comes out of them, I'd tell them. So it wasn't a specific rule, it was a principle about bodily lumps and fluids, and about exploring our own orifices and parts.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-First off, I have no experience/help about eating dirt. (I do know a quick google search provides much info on it, and most did not seem too alarming)-=-
I've heard stories of people eating dirt, or reporting the urge, or that dirt smelled like something they should eat, and it being explained as a lack of something. Minerals, or of something that's in clay. I forget.
But maybe just experimentally or as a token, you could cook more of things that grow in dirt, and leave the skins on. Turnips, potatoes, carrots that aren't too peeled. You could acknowledge it as a possible need or instinctive move.
Maybe talk about, examine some salt. It's 'dirt' in a way (mineral).
This is a bit difficult internationally, as in the UK "dirt" isn't what plants grow in. Soil is. Here, if something is "soiled" it could involve feces, and that's not something to eat, though when my oldest was a newborn, his poop smelled like food to me, seriously. So I've always paid attention to any idea of a mammal licking her baby's butt, or tasting his poo. I think (and I could be wrong) that IF a mother does that, she can create antibodies in her that will go into the baby through the milk (if the baby was in need of anti-bodies)...
So I wouldn't totally discount those kinds of things, nor would I build a religion out of them. "Some validity," perhaps.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've heard stories of people eating dirt, or reporting the urge, or that dirt smelled like something they should eat, and it being explained as a lack of something. Minerals, or of something that's in clay. I forget.
But maybe just experimentally or as a token, you could cook more of things that grow in dirt, and leave the skins on. Turnips, potatoes, carrots that aren't too peeled. You could acknowledge it as a possible need or instinctive move.
Maybe talk about, examine some salt. It's 'dirt' in a way (mineral).
This is a bit difficult internationally, as in the UK "dirt" isn't what plants grow in. Soil is. Here, if something is "soiled" it could involve feces, and that's not something to eat, though when my oldest was a newborn, his poop smelled like food to me, seriously. So I've always paid attention to any idea of a mammal licking her baby's butt, or tasting his poo. I think (and I could be wrong) that IF a mother does that, she can create antibodies in her that will go into the baby through the milk (if the baby was in need of anti-bodies)...
So I wouldn't totally discount those kinds of things, nor would I build a religion out of them. "Some validity," perhaps.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 23, 2012, at 1:22 AM, LydiaK wrote:
There were non-Hawaiian girls in love with Lilo when that movie was popular. Loads of girls are in love with all things Japanese because of manga.
My daughter wanted to be a cat. She pretended and drew cats. She also wanted to be a slugbug (her own made up creature). And a Pokemon trainer. It was pretty much anything but herself. But there's no adult baggage tied to wanting to be any of those so she got to pretend in blissful peace. And grow into someone who loves who she is. Partly because she got to explore not being herself.
Her wanting to be something other than who she was wasn't coming from a dislike of who she was. And even if it was, telling her she's wrong for liking what she likes would be saying I don't like her either because she has wrong thoughts I need to correct.
I know it's indoctrinated into our society that we're supposed to be getting our kids to see the world the "right" way, which means telling them what the right thoughts to have are, especially when it seems they're having the wrong thoughts.
But it's far more helpful to see the thoughts kids try on as a process of deciding what's right *for them*.
Give her positive experiences with her race. Give her positive experiences with lots of races and cultures. Let her explore freely what she likes and dislikes about each.
The more positive her experience with her own race, the less she feels pressured to think the right way about her own race, the more likely she'll embrace who she is as being special.
Joyce
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> I just don't really know what is an appropriate way to deal withDo it completely separate from the doll.
> discussing race and identity with her, or if it is appropriate right now.
There were non-Hawaiian girls in love with Lilo when that movie was popular. Loads of girls are in love with all things Japanese because of manga.
My daughter wanted to be a cat. She pretended and drew cats. She also wanted to be a slugbug (her own made up creature). And a Pokemon trainer. It was pretty much anything but herself. But there's no adult baggage tied to wanting to be any of those so she got to pretend in blissful peace. And grow into someone who loves who she is. Partly because she got to explore not being herself.
Her wanting to be something other than who she was wasn't coming from a dislike of who she was. And even if it was, telling her she's wrong for liking what she likes would be saying I don't like her either because she has wrong thoughts I need to correct.
> discuss that beauty isn't only white skin and blonde hairWould it seem like a good idea if my husband discussed with me that fun isn't only fantasy and science fiction?
I know it's indoctrinated into our society that we're supposed to be getting our kids to see the world the "right" way, which means telling them what the right thoughts to have are, especially when it seems they're having the wrong thoughts.
But it's far more helpful to see the thoughts kids try on as a process of deciding what's right *for them*.
Give her positive experiences with her race. Give her positive experiences with lots of races and cultures. Let her explore freely what she likes and dislikes about each.
The more positive her experience with her own race, the less she feels pressured to think the right way about her own race, the more likely she'll embrace who she is as being special.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lesa Owens
------------------------------
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 9:30 AM PDT Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
>***I've heard stories of people eating dirt, or reporting the urge, or that dirt smelled like something they should eat, and it being explained as a lack of something. Minerals, or of something that's in clay. I forget.***
I remember hearing about pregnant women craving dirt and being advised to eat starch-Argo I think it was called.
My mother was raised in Mississippi and there were places that had this red clay dirt. When she or my aunt would visit, people here would ask them to bring it back because they grew up there and used to eat it. It has to do with the minerals they say.
My point is, there's probably an alternative to the dirt from the ground.
Lesa~
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Lesa Owens
------------------------------
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 8:43 AM PDT Sandra Dodd wrote:
>***Queen Latifah wears blond wigs sometimes.***
So does Mary J. Blige and Beyonce.
It looks good on some black women. There are however, in the black community, neverending arguements as to why they choose to do this. Its never accepted as, because they want to as a fashion choice.
>***In India there are commercials all over the place for lotions that lighten skin. They have a range of brown, from dark brown to light brown, and the lighter is preferable.***
I worked in a beauty supply store and a lot of African women (Nigerian) would come in looking for creams to lighten their skin even though there was a risk that their skin could break out in a horrible rash. They would ask me how I had such light skin. They didn't believe me when I said, my parents. For them, lighter was preferable.
Do you watch a mixture of movies with her where the ethnicity of the females is varied? How about the Cinderella movie with Brandy and Whitney Houston? I think if you do this and don't take it personally if she makes comments about darker skin (or yours specifically) is kind of ugly, you'll be better off because she is only 4. Her opinion could change by the time she's 5 or six or sixteen.
When I was a young girl growing up in the 70's, black dolls were scarce. I only received white dolls. My favorite was Chrissy. An aunt bought me the counterpart which was Velvet. I never even took the plastic off of her head. I wore my poncho on my head like it was my hair because I wanted hair like my blonde haired blued eyed friend Gayle. My parents never made an issue out of it. They never said one word as to what I should do or like because I'm black. My mother is so light I used to be asked if she was white. I think the fact that they never tried to influence me one way or another was best because they weren't drawing attention to it. They let me be me and my choices my own.
Sandra Dodd
-=-There are however, in the black community, neverending arguements as to why they choose to do this. Its never accepted as, because they want to as a fashion choice.-=-
"It's never accepted as..." is a strong statement. Nothing is every accepted by everybody. :-)
-=- How about the Cinderella movie with Brandy and Whitney Houston?-=-
Cute, cute prince, too. :-)
And it has Bernadette Peters, and if she likes that musical, there are others, with Bernadette Peters ("Annie" might be fun for her) and you could be off on connecting movies (regardless of appearances of actors....)
http://sandradodd.com/movies
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"It's never accepted as..." is a strong statement. Nothing is every accepted by everybody. :-)
-=- How about the Cinderella movie with Brandy and Whitney Houston?-=-
Cute, cute prince, too. :-)
And it has Bernadette Peters, and if she likes that musical, there are others, with Bernadette Peters ("Annie" might be fun for her) and you could be off on connecting movies (regardless of appearances of actors....)
http://sandradodd.com/movies
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
In Iran, pregnant women are known to crave red clay for the iron in it.
-pam
-pam
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Lesa Owens <urcakedreams@...> wrote:
> My mother was raised in Mississippi and there were places that had this
> red clay dirt.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Some of the older farmers, where I live, eat dirt. Some say they do it as a supplement - this area was incredibly poor back when they were young. Others do it as a way to determine what kind of fertilizer a soil needs - they can taste pH and some of the minerals, apparently, as well as a regular soil test.
It could be fun to do some soil tests at home, if the little girl in question is interested. It's interesting just to put various kinds of dirt in jars of water and see what settles out, and it's interesting to do simple pH tests and watch the paper change color. It might not have any effect at all on her interest in eating dirt, but it could be a way to "feed" that interest (as it were) that's a bit more socially acceptable. Dirt is fascinating stuff!
---Meredith
>> I've heard stories of people eating dirt, or reporting the urge, or that dirt smelled like something they should eat, and it being explained as a lack of something. Minerals, or of something that's in clay. I forget.*************
Some of the older farmers, where I live, eat dirt. Some say they do it as a supplement - this area was incredibly poor back when they were young. Others do it as a way to determine what kind of fertilizer a soil needs - they can taste pH and some of the minerals, apparently, as well as a regular soil test.
It could be fun to do some soil tests at home, if the little girl in question is interested. It's interesting just to put various kinds of dirt in jars of water and see what settles out, and it's interesting to do simple pH tests and watch the paper change color. It might not have any effect at all on her interest in eating dirt, but it could be a way to "feed" that interest (as it were) that's a bit more socially acceptable. Dirt is fascinating stuff!
---Meredith
Pam Sorooshian
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
it from dirt that they eat with their food. Humans get it from eating
animals and used to get it from dirty produce, especially root veggies, but
nowadays our food is SO clean that we have to take supplements. OR - we
could eat dirt! <G>
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Some of the older farmers, where I live, eat dirt. Some say they do it asThose of us who don't eat any animal products don't get B12 - animals get
> a supplement
it from dirt that they eat with their food. Humans get it from eating
animals and used to get it from dirty produce, especially root veggies, but
nowadays our food is SO clean that we have to take supplements. OR - we
could eat dirt! <G>
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bea
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>I grew up in France and when I was a kid the popular shows on TV were mainly Japanese manga-style cartoons. I wanted to look like those characters: have very large almond-shaped eyes and blue hair :-)
> My daughter wanted to be a cat. She pretended and drew cats. She also wanted to be a slugbug (her own made up creature). And a Pokemon trainer. It was pretty much anything but herself. But there's no adult baggage tied to wanting to be any of those so she got to pretend in blissful peace. And grow into someone who loves who she is. Partly because she got to explore not being herself.
>
catfish_friend
> Since getting into Barbie, Nisa has started saying that she wishes she had white skin and blonde hair almost every day. Today we were playing with shaving cream and water beads, and she rubbed the shaving cream on her arms and told me she now had white skin and was very happy about it.My 5 year old, Carolina, LOVES the 80s She-Ra (blonde white female superhero) and watches it almost everyday. She tries to dress up as She-Ra with what she has and we've been getting materials together to make her a complete costume. I'm of Korean descent and her dad is Irish-Mexican-Polish. She has dark hair, eyes and olive-y skin and looks hapa. She had asked for a blonde wig to go with her Disney princess Aurora (Sleeping Beauty) dress about a year ago and I got it for her. She wore it a handful of times and then lost interest. She asked me a year or two ago if she would grow up and be "all-Korean" like me and was visibly sad when I first explained that she would be always be "half-Korean". (I did tell her she would always be made of all-love, though, and that made her smile.)
Race was discussed when I was growing up because my parents immigrated at a time (mid-60s) and to a place (small-town Texas) where there weren't many Asians. My parents both faced a lot of discrimination and I heard these stories from them while being teased for "chinky" eyes and my house smelling rotten (from kimchi). As a teenager, I asked for aqua blue contacts instead of plain ones when I needed them to correct my vision. My mother bought them for me without adding any commentary or judgment and I enjoyed wearing them. My father had offered me a trip to Korea to get my eyes "done" as an adolescent -- to get the eyelid crease that most non-Asians have. I did not want that because I had no desire to have surgery nor did I feel i needed "bigger" eyes. I did enjoy the colored contacts for their shock value and novelty. I did not wear them everyday. When I got older (20s), before it was trendy for Asian girls to lighten their hair, I was a tawny blonde for a while and I absolutely got more attention, more smiles and better service when out and about. It was fun to be blonde!
I had a vested interest in understanding cultural identity issues as an adolescent and young adult partly because my parents never spoke about Korea unless specifically asked. I satisfied my own search for identity in college by getting a grant to go to Korea to record my grandfather's oral history when I was an undergraduate. It was an eye-opening experience for me to be one of many people of the same race and ethnicity in a country as opposed to a minority. It was also eye-opening to recognize that while I looked like other Koreans, just how different I was from them sine I was born and raised in America. Also interesting was to see how my parents were different than Koreans in Korea at the present time -- like they had kept the Korean cultural values from the 60s alive.
I think as hard as it is to sort out race from identity or looks and story -- when I think about my experience, I appreciate that my parents shared some things with me (mistreatment in the US) and not the things that were too difficult for them to discuss (Japanese occupation, Korean war) simply because one was relevant to my immediate experience (prejudice and teasing) and the other was a historical tragedy that they were still scarred from and wouldn't necessarily help me.
With my daughters, I try to stay focused on what they are asking for and asking questions (if it's needed) so I can understand them and share with them in a relevant way.
My husband is particularly interested in his Mexican roots because his Mexican grandfather pretended to be Italian and refused to speak Spanish when he immigrated to Philadelphia. Though my father-in-law never learned Spanish, my husband took an interest in learning Spanish and is fluent. We talk about race, immigration, acculturation and prejudice in our house as it comes up in response to things that are happening with our girls or as relevant holidays/anniversaries pass. We talk about it as we would bring up an interesting story or fact we happen to know about something they are interested in. We check out books from the library about different cultures and make an effort to go to events that enrich our understanding of different self-identifying groups of people. I grew up being particularly sensitive to the fact that most media and reading I was exposed to or assigned to read was from a predominately white, male creator and/or about a white, make protagonist. I love that Unschooling allows me to give my girls exposure to as broad a range of voices and cultures as interest allows. Carolina has been interested in ancient Egypt and native American cultures most recently but her interest in their mythology has led us now to a book about mythology across cultures...
> I lightly said "I liked your skin before." When she asked why, I said because she had skin that was a mix between mine and her dad's. I asked her what she thought of my skin and she said "Well I think it's kind of ugly." That hurt my feelings.I recently was reading medical research about skin pigmentation and learned that black and Asian skin are structurally different than Caucasian skin -- these differences may account for why non-Caucasian skin appear more youthful than Caucasian skin over time. CDC data on melanoma and death rates from skin cancer by race shows that blacks have the lowest rates of melanoma and skin cancer death. There is research that suggests the difference in black skin in addition to the protective effect of pigment may account for the resistance to cancer!
You can enjoy knowing and sharing with your daughter that black skin is actually heartier/healthier, and beautiful :)
Ceci
Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp
My 5 year old sometimes mentions that she would prefer lighter skin, blue eyes and blond hair. I'm not hurt by it. I think if she could really change things, she would probably decide to be pink :-)
I'm Indian (Punjabi) and my husband is Dutch. Our daughter has brown eyes, black hair and light brown skin. Recently she showed me a book of Lego Friends and shared with me the characters she found most beautiful. The darker friend was the least beautiful on her list of five girls. I playfully exclaimed that the darker friend looked the most like me and that *I* thought the darker friend was the most beautiful. Then I took my daughter's hand held mirror and dramatically admired my own beauty (blinking my eyes rapidly, twirling my hair, commenting on how probably most people wished they had skin that reminded them every moment of chocolate). I sighed deeply and declared I must be the most beautiful creature that ever lived. My daughter loved it, giggled and declared she was the most beautiful. My blue eyed husband interrupted from the kitchen and said we were both mistaken, and obviously he was the most beautiful creature.
We celebrate the Indian part of our family's heritage. I make sure my daughter has beautiful Indian clothes, Indian play jewelry, bindis (forehead decoration), etc. We play Indian music, eat Indian food and we went to a movie theater to see a bollywood film together. We've celebrated festivals such as Diwali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diwali) with our Dutch friends. Our children love to dance to bollywood and bhangra music. We often do google searches on Indian clothes, jewelry, shoes, etc. and I've got her favourites bookmarked for her on my computer. She frequently asks me to note her absolute favourites (which keep changing) so she can plan her Indian wedding around it ;-)
Rippy
I'm Indian (Punjabi) and my husband is Dutch. Our daughter has brown eyes, black hair and light brown skin. Recently she showed me a book of Lego Friends and shared with me the characters she found most beautiful. The darker friend was the least beautiful on her list of five girls. I playfully exclaimed that the darker friend looked the most like me and that *I* thought the darker friend was the most beautiful. Then I took my daughter's hand held mirror and dramatically admired my own beauty (blinking my eyes rapidly, twirling my hair, commenting on how probably most people wished they had skin that reminded them every moment of chocolate). I sighed deeply and declared I must be the most beautiful creature that ever lived. My daughter loved it, giggled and declared she was the most beautiful. My blue eyed husband interrupted from the kitchen and said we were both mistaken, and obviously he was the most beautiful creature.
We celebrate the Indian part of our family's heritage. I make sure my daughter has beautiful Indian clothes, Indian play jewelry, bindis (forehead decoration), etc. We play Indian music, eat Indian food and we went to a movie theater to see a bollywood film together. We've celebrated festivals such as Diwali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diwali) with our Dutch friends. Our children love to dance to bollywood and bhangra music. We often do google searches on Indian clothes, jewelry, shoes, etc. and I've got her favourites bookmarked for her on my computer. She frequently asks me to note her absolute favourites (which keep changing) so she can plan her Indian wedding around it ;-)
Rippy
Meredith
> > Since getting into Barbie, Nisa has started saying that she wishes she had white skin and blonde hair almost every day.*************
It occurred to me to wonder if you're confusing correlation and causality. Maybe she's excited about Barbie in part because she already likes the look of white skin and blonde hair - the way someone will watch every movie they can find with a particular actor, no matter the genre, because he likes or wants to identify with That actor. For me, it was Whoopie Goldberg and Robin Williams - maybe for your daughter it's "Barbie".
---Meredith
Herb
-=-. One is that my four year old daughter, Nisa, loves blonde hair
and white skin. -=-
My daughters has white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes. When she was your daughters age, her favorite Barbie was a black skinned Barbie. She carried it every where. I don't remember if she said she wanted to be black skinned like the Barbie. For me it was never an issue at all. I wasn't concerned that she might want to be a skin color she wasn't. I never even thought anything about the Barbie she carried around and I probably wouldn't have remember it if a woman hadn't commented on it. One day while buying a balloon for my daughter's birthday, a black woman made a comment about the Barbie. She was surprised to see a blond hair blue eyed girl carrying a black Barbie around as her favorite. My daughter has Barbies that are all different skin colors and nationalities. I think her least favorite ones have always been the ones that look like her. She doesn't have a negative image of herself. I think it's the novelty of different. Your daughter liking white skin might be the novelty of the different to.
There are Sudanese immigrants in my area. I love the color of their skin. They are extremely dark skinned and it's a beautiful color against bright colored clothing. The extremely dark skin is very unusual to me and might be why it is so beautiful and interesting to me. I have very fair skin with freckles. I glow in the dark. I burn easily. I can't say I'm a fan of my skin color. It has many disadvantages other than living in the far north in the fog and its ability to produce vitamin D with less sun intensity than most people.
I grew up in Kentucky and read about a group of people that lived in the mountains of Kentucky that were blue skinned with lavender/blue fingernail. At one point in my life I wanted to look like that. I know a lot of people haven't heard about the blue skinned people. Here's a link if you're interested.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/blue-skinned-people-kentucky-reveal-todays-genetic-lesson/story?id=15759819#.T21wko7iY1g
My sister read about Native American a lot and wanted to look like a Native American at one point. She is blonde with green eyes.
I haven't seen a Barbie movie for a while. My daughter is older now. Are all the Barbies blonde and white skinned in all the movies? I can't remember. Pixie Hollow has fairies of a lot of different skin colors and seems like something a Barbie fan would like. Your daughter might still might favor the skin colors that are different than hers, but as long as she continues to see positive images of characters that look like hers I would think it's not a concern.
-=- My biggest problem is that Nisa likes to eat dirt and sand-=-
I thought you might find this interesting. It discusses the possible benefit to young children eating dirt.
Let Them Eat Dirt | The Scientist
the-scientist.com
Let Them Eat Dirt |
For my children, especially my son, age made the biggest difference in them stopping embarrassing behavior. The things you speak of your daughter doing are things I see many kids do. When my son was your daughters age, my many attempts to stop certain behaviors seemed to increase them. It made him aware that they got a reaction. I had to switch to distraction so that he was less aware that something bothered me. For example if your daughter went to pick her nose, you could just gently remover her hand and put a kleenex in it, without saying don't do that. If she bends down to eat dirt when getting out of the car, you could bend over to take her hand calmly, brush it off and say let hold hands and continue on to where you were going. I don't know if those idea will help, but for my son it would work much better than telling him "no" or giving a long explanation of why it wasn't OK. If nothing else you live through the things kids do when they are young and they grow up and stop. My kids are both over 11 year old now and all the embarrassing things they did when they were younger don't matter or are remembered fondly.
Meg
cfebsleb@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and white skin. -=-
My daughters has white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes. When she was your daughters age, her favorite Barbie was a black skinned Barbie. She carried it every where. I don't remember if she said she wanted to be black skinned like the Barbie. For me it was never an issue at all. I wasn't concerned that she might want to be a skin color she wasn't. I never even thought anything about the Barbie she carried around and I probably wouldn't have remember it if a woman hadn't commented on it. One day while buying a balloon for my daughter's birthday, a black woman made a comment about the Barbie. She was surprised to see a blond hair blue eyed girl carrying a black Barbie around as her favorite. My daughter has Barbies that are all different skin colors and nationalities. I think her least favorite ones have always been the ones that look like her. She doesn't have a negative image of herself. I think it's the novelty of different. Your daughter liking white skin might be the novelty of the different to.
There are Sudanese immigrants in my area. I love the color of their skin. They are extremely dark skinned and it's a beautiful color against bright colored clothing. The extremely dark skin is very unusual to me and might be why it is so beautiful and interesting to me. I have very fair skin with freckles. I glow in the dark. I burn easily. I can't say I'm a fan of my skin color. It has many disadvantages other than living in the far north in the fog and its ability to produce vitamin D with less sun intensity than most people.
I grew up in Kentucky and read about a group of people that lived in the mountains of Kentucky that were blue skinned with lavender/blue fingernail. At one point in my life I wanted to look like that. I know a lot of people haven't heard about the blue skinned people. Here's a link if you're interested.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/blue-skinned-people-kentucky-reveal-todays-genetic-lesson/story?id=15759819#.T21wko7iY1g
My sister read about Native American a lot and wanted to look like a Native American at one point. She is blonde with green eyes.
I haven't seen a Barbie movie for a while. My daughter is older now. Are all the Barbies blonde and white skinned in all the movies? I can't remember. Pixie Hollow has fairies of a lot of different skin colors and seems like something a Barbie fan would like. Your daughter might still might favor the skin colors that are different than hers, but as long as she continues to see positive images of characters that look like hers I would think it's not a concern.
-=- My biggest problem is that Nisa likes to eat dirt and sand-=-
I thought you might find this interesting. It discusses the possible benefit to young children eating dirt.
Let Them Eat Dirt | The Scientist
the-scientist.com
Let Them Eat Dirt |
For my children, especially my son, age made the biggest difference in them stopping embarrassing behavior. The things you speak of your daughter doing are things I see many kids do. When my son was your daughters age, my many attempts to stop certain behaviors seemed to increase them. It made him aware that they got a reaction. I had to switch to distraction so that he was less aware that something bothered me. For example if your daughter went to pick her nose, you could just gently remover her hand and put a kleenex in it, without saying don't do that. If she bends down to eat dirt when getting out of the car, you could bend over to take her hand calmly, brush it off and say let hold hands and continue on to where you were going. I don't know if those idea will help, but for my son it would work much better than telling him "no" or giving a long explanation of why it wasn't OK. If nothing else you live through the things kids do when they are young and they grow up and stop. My kids are both over 11 year old now and all the embarrassing things they did when they were younger don't matter or are remembered fondly.
Meg
cfebsleb@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Holly has baby dolls, and played with them even as a teen. One is black-skinned, and it was one of her favorites. It wasn't a big deal either way. She liked the look and feel of him, and that was that.
In India I saw women with their toenails done in silver. It was beautiful and I seriously thought about getting a pedicure like that, but realized after a few days of trying to get that on the schedule that my feet are white, not dark brown, and I don't have cool Indian clothes, and silver toenails wouldn't have done anything for me. Also I'm not girly and have never had a pedicure.
Next time, I should just visit a pedicure shop or hang out in the mall and look at other people's beautiful feet. :-)
Sandra
In India I saw women with their toenails done in silver. It was beautiful and I seriously thought about getting a pedicure like that, but realized after a few days of trying to get that on the schedule that my feet are white, not dark brown, and I don't have cool Indian clothes, and silver toenails wouldn't have done anything for me. Also I'm not girly and have never had a pedicure.
Next time, I should just visit a pedicure shop or hang out in the mall and look at other people's beautiful feet. :-)
Sandra
Herb
-=-recently was reading medical research about skin pigmentation and learned that
black and Asian skin are structurally different than Caucasian skin -- these
differences may account for why non-Caucasian skin appear more youthful than
Caucasian skin over time. CDC data on melanoma and death rates from skin cancer
by race shows that blacks have the lowest rates of melanoma and skin cancer
death. There is research that suggests the difference in black skin in addition
to the protective effect of pigment may account for the resistance to cancer!-=-
-=-You can enjoy knowing and sharing with your daughter that black skin is actually
heartier/healthier, and beautiful :)-=-
When saying this, it could imply to a child that even if you have dark skin that someone with darker skin is even "heartier/healthier". The winners of the most "heartier/healthier" skin would be someone native to Bougainville Island. It's my understanding that they are the darkest skinned people.
I was reading this and it bothered me. I've known about the benefits of melanin for a long time. Increased melanin is great under certain situation and not under others. People with different skin colors have them because there are benefit to having the color of skin they have when living in certain places on the earth. My very light colored skin works very well in an area like the British Isles. It would look younger and healthier there than in sunny, dry southern California. Less melanin enables my body to produce more vitamin D in a low light environment. Vitamin D is needed for calcium absorption and bone formation. Foods in the US have vitamin D added to help compensate for reduced sun exposure and vitamin D in peoples bodies. I had a friend in Arkansas that had a dark skinned child that wasn't getting addition vitamin D in her food and had what I think was called subclinical rickets. I don't know if the child could have been in the sun more and increased her vitamin D enough to compensate without taking a supplement. There is on going research to look at vitamin D levels and it's affect on the immune system, decrease breast cancer rates, a possible link to multiple sclerosis. Some researchers think it is possible that the vitamin D requirements are set to low. That they are good enough for calcium absorption, but too low for optimal immune system function. Light colored skin provides a health benefit in low light areas if vitamin D supplementation is not provided. The point I'm trying to make is that not any skin color is more superior than another. They were select for in certain environments. My skin was not selected to work well near the equator, unless... maybe I was under a heavy jungle canopy.
When talking about skin color with my children I tell them there are advantages and disadvantages to all skin types and why that is. I don't want my kids to think their skin color is better or worse than another skin color. I don't want them to think that one look is more or less beautiful than another. I feel it is just as harmful to a child to make them think they are better in someway because of skin color as to make them think they are less. I really do believe all people of different colors of skin are beautiful and love all the differences. The different skin colors provide advantages and disadvantages. My Mom had a book I use to look at all the time when I was a kid. It had pictures of faces of people from everywhere in the World. The native Australians, Papua New Guinean, Inuit,many different Native American groups, Scandinavians, different groups from Pacific islands, Asia, Africa, Europe....lots and lots of people from many different areas with different skin colors and looks. I loved that book and wanted to go see all the people that were in the book.
Meg
cfebsleb@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
black and Asian skin are structurally different than Caucasian skin -- these
differences may account for why non-Caucasian skin appear more youthful than
Caucasian skin over time. CDC data on melanoma and death rates from skin cancer
by race shows that blacks have the lowest rates of melanoma and skin cancer
death. There is research that suggests the difference in black skin in addition
to the protective effect of pigment may account for the resistance to cancer!-=-
-=-You can enjoy knowing and sharing with your daughter that black skin is actually
heartier/healthier, and beautiful :)-=-
When saying this, it could imply to a child that even if you have dark skin that someone with darker skin is even "heartier/healthier". The winners of the most "heartier/healthier" skin would be someone native to Bougainville Island. It's my understanding that they are the darkest skinned people.
I was reading this and it bothered me. I've known about the benefits of melanin for a long time. Increased melanin is great under certain situation and not under others. People with different skin colors have them because there are benefit to having the color of skin they have when living in certain places on the earth. My very light colored skin works very well in an area like the British Isles. It would look younger and healthier there than in sunny, dry southern California. Less melanin enables my body to produce more vitamin D in a low light environment. Vitamin D is needed for calcium absorption and bone formation. Foods in the US have vitamin D added to help compensate for reduced sun exposure and vitamin D in peoples bodies. I had a friend in Arkansas that had a dark skinned child that wasn't getting addition vitamin D in her food and had what I think was called subclinical rickets. I don't know if the child could have been in the sun more and increased her vitamin D enough to compensate without taking a supplement. There is on going research to look at vitamin D levels and it's affect on the immune system, decrease breast cancer rates, a possible link to multiple sclerosis. Some researchers think it is possible that the vitamin D requirements are set to low. That they are good enough for calcium absorption, but too low for optimal immune system function. Light colored skin provides a health benefit in low light areas if vitamin D supplementation is not provided. The point I'm trying to make is that not any skin color is more superior than another. They were select for in certain environments. My skin was not selected to work well near the equator, unless... maybe I was under a heavy jungle canopy.
When talking about skin color with my children I tell them there are advantages and disadvantages to all skin types and why that is. I don't want my kids to think their skin color is better or worse than another skin color. I don't want them to think that one look is more or less beautiful than another. I feel it is just as harmful to a child to make them think they are better in someway because of skin color as to make them think they are less. I really do believe all people of different colors of skin are beautiful and love all the differences. The different skin colors provide advantages and disadvantages. My Mom had a book I use to look at all the time when I was a kid. It had pictures of faces of people from everywhere in the World. The native Australians, Papua New Guinean, Inuit,many different Native American groups, Scandinavians, different groups from Pacific islands, Asia, Africa, Europe....lots and lots of people from many different areas with different skin colors and looks. I loved that book and wanted to go see all the people that were in the book.
Meg
cfebsleb@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
malibu_n_milk2000
<My biggest problem is that Nisa likes to eat dirt and sand. She will gleefully do it more if I tell her not to. She often shoves handfuls into her mouth before we go somewhere>
I did a lot of research on this during my 1st pregnancy, i wasnt a dirt eater, I was a sponge sucker :) i did it during both my pregnacies, it was like a real strong craving and felt really satisfying to suck on a sponge. some women actually bite and eat the sponges, or soil and sand.
Its called Pica, and its often found in pregnant women and children. I do think i have vague recollections of sucking water out my bath flannel as a kid :)
They do say it can be caused by a lack of minerals, and I did notice I did it less in my second pregnancy when I had gone onto eating raw food.
Maybe take a look at her diet and see if you can suppliment.
However, I would say that it is a genuine craving for her at the moment, obviously i had it while pregnant but I've heard its the same kind of feeling, so maybe when she does it just know that that maybe how it feels to her. not that she's just doing it to be socially unacceptable or annoy you etc.
and as a side note that maybe completely irrelevant.... or not, I'm white but both my kids are mixed black caribbean.
Hope that helps some.
Emma
I did a lot of research on this during my 1st pregnancy, i wasnt a dirt eater, I was a sponge sucker :) i did it during both my pregnacies, it was like a real strong craving and felt really satisfying to suck on a sponge. some women actually bite and eat the sponges, or soil and sand.
Its called Pica, and its often found in pregnant women and children. I do think i have vague recollections of sucking water out my bath flannel as a kid :)
They do say it can be caused by a lack of minerals, and I did notice I did it less in my second pregnancy when I had gone onto eating raw food.
Maybe take a look at her diet and see if you can suppliment.
However, I would say that it is a genuine craving for her at the moment, obviously i had it while pregnant but I've heard its the same kind of feeling, so maybe when she does it just know that that maybe how it feels to her. not that she's just doing it to be socially unacceptable or annoy you etc.
and as a side note that maybe completely irrelevant.... or not, I'm white but both my kids are mixed black caribbean.
Hope that helps some.
Emma
--- In [email protected], "LydiaK" <princessjasmine05@...> wrote:
>
> I have two issues I have been trying to deal with for a little while now unsuccessfully. One is that my four year old daughter, Nisa, loves blonde hair and white skin. I am Black and my husband is Jewish (White, but he likes to say Jewish). Nisa has fairly light skin and dark hair. She loves the Barbie movies and we have watched nearly every one together. I love many of them too, which is surprising because I didn't like Barbie much as a kid. Since getting into Barbie, Nisa has started saying that she wishes she had white skin and blonde hair almost every day. Today we were playing with shaving cream and water beads, and she rubbed the shaving cream on her arms and told me she now had white skin and was very happy about it. I lightly said "I liked your skin before." When she asked why, I said because she had skin that was a mix between mine and her dad's. I asked her what she thought of my skin and she said "Well I think it's kind of ugly." That hurt my feelings. I didn't say that to her, because I thought I might have been too emotionally charged and discounting her preferences in initiating that conversation to begin with, although I tried to stay as neutral as possible.
>
> Having a daughter who wishes to be whiter has been triggering me in lots of ways. We haven't talked to her about race or history, although we do live in the South. As a kid, my parents talked to me LOTS about race and history, slavery, Jim Crow, and their own experiences etc.; and I don't want to do that with her in the same way because it made me feel very angry at a young age. My sister and I also went to a private school from 3rd-10th grade where we were the first Black students to attend (it was a school that was established in response to forced integration in 1969). It was very uncomfortable, and we were brought into the principal's office to talk about our race and how some students might treat us unkindly when we started school there. I was always on the lookout and on the defensive after that. So I am not sure that is a great approach. There were some incidents but in retrospect I wonder if they would have been easier to handle if I had been helped in gentler ways.
>
> In my family growing up, if I had expressed the preferences Nisa has, my parents would have ridiculed me. My parents also often told us not to trust our White friends at school because they would eventually betray us. I think it might have been kinder to wait until there was an actual issue and then discuss it in that context than to set us up to be looking for those kinds of things. I could never really relax at that school and was glad when I left.
>
> I might be tacking too much significance to her preferences, but I feel like she has learned from watching Barbie that having brown skin isn't as beautiful or as preferable as white skin. That she has somehow absorbed these messages from our culture, as depicted by Barbie. Then again, maybe it is as simple as she is identifying with a character she likes. I don't know. She had been asking me for a blonde wig for months and I did buy her one to play dress up in at home. I was happy to give it to her and to see her joy at having it. It really is no different than having a princess dress and pretending to be a princess, but my baggage keeps me from feeling that way sometimes.
>
> On the one hand, I would like my daughter to get to just be a kid. I don't want to burden her with too much information or political and social justice issues. I just don't really know what is an appropriate way to deal with discussing race and identity with her, or if it is appropriate right now. Or how to discuss that beauty isn't only white skin and blonde hair, when that is her current model of beauty. Or how to deal with my own issues and not pass them along to her. I do think Barbie in the movies is beautiful and has many admirable qualities; but I wish my daughter thought of herself as beautiful just as she is! She really is a beautiful girl.
>
> The other issue is how to deal with situations where my children are doing things that are socially unacceptable. This has come up several times on this list recently, and has been on my mind for a while as well. My biggest problem is that Nisa likes to eat dirt and sand. She will gleefully do it more if I tell her not to. She often shoves handfuls into her mouth before we go somewhere (while we are outside in the driveway about to get in the car), and sometimes when she is at the park or something like that. I tell her to stop firmly and take her hand from her mouth and clean her up. It is mortifying. I believe if people see her eating dirt, it will cause problems for our family. I don't understand why she does this; when I ask her she says because it tastes good.
>
> My husband thinks Nisa's public dirt eating is no big deal. Just a couple of weeks ago, he took her to a neighbor's house to see some horses, and I wasn't there. He told me she was eating dirt from the driveway in front of the neighbor, whom we had just met that day; and that the neighbor said she should go back to our house and eat our dirt, expressing his discomfort. Maybe he was not that uncomfortable, I don't know because I wasn't there, but I imagine he was. My husband said he just laughed and did not stop her. She also picks her nose in public and I have told her that is impolite and I have also said "other people don't like to see that" and other short, informative phrases like that. I have also sometimes talked too much. She still does it; when I see her do it, I take her hand from her nose and often she will just go right back to doing it. I will offer her a tissue or a trip to the bathroom but she doesn't take me up on those often. Sometimes, with the dirt eating, I wonder if there is a deeper reason she is doing this--sometimes she will look right at me when she is doing it, like she wants to get my reaction, which is usually pretty horrified, especially if we are in public.
>
> My husband, I should mention, frequently does not pick up on social cues. His father is the same way. So there could be a genetic predisposition, or it could be normal four year old behavior, or she could be feeling defiant in which case I need to figure out why . . . . Those are my main theories at the moment.
>
> I suppose I should be calmer in my response, but continue to stop her from doing these things. Maybe I will have to keep stopping her over and over. But it seems to me that I am doing something wrong here. If I was doing this right, my daughter would be trusting me and not continuing to do something that is inappropriate. So far that is not happening.
>
> Lydia Koltai
>
maryann
For a four year old, especially since you've said you haven't talked much about race yet, I think it's purely about color. I have always had brown curly hair and white skin with freckles. Most of the time, from an early age, I wished I had straight hair, either blond or black, and skin that tanned easily or olive or red or black skin. Oh, and blue eyes. (Mine are brown.)
When I saw other girls or women I thought were beautiful or smart or cool or interesting, I wished I looked like them, wanted to know what it was like to Be them.
My mother and grandmothers always countered my wishes/comments about hair with, "But your hair is so pretty." and, "Your hair is like mine was when I was your age." and "Do you know how many people pay a LOT of money to have hair like yours?" and, "Well, you're never going to have straight blond hair, so you might as well get used to it, hahaha." I hated that. I was Very affected by that. They did not understand at all, took it personally that I wished for different hair, and tried to shame me into feeling ungrateful for not appreciating the hair I had.
I have a 5 year old son who pretends to be all kinds of star wars characters and superheroes and other characters he creates himself. Once, he cut his own bangs to look like one of them (with one curl hanging down). He wishes he could turn invisible, fly, use a light saber, jump really high, etc. My two year old daughter often pretends to be a cat or a dog or a penguin or other animals. She wishes she could have fur all over, and stripes. These things are not emotionally charged as race is, but I imagine your daughter's ideas are more related to pretending to be a superhero or a cat than they are about race. (for her)
This book, recommended by Sandra, helped me a Lot when my sweet little boy started wanting to pretend things that I didn't understand. http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Monsters-Children-Make-Believe-Violence/dp/0465036961/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332766703&sr=8-1
It applies to pretending and acting and emulating characters. I think it would really help you.
I haven't wished for blond hair in a long time, (though if I did, I would dye mine) but I'm Still working on baggage of resentment from my childhood for feeling guilty for wanting something that my elders believed I shouldn't want. They believed if I were grateful for myself, I wouldn't want that. If I wanted that, it meant I was ungrateful for myself and ungrateful for them. (Heavy stuff!!)
Now I see that I was simply a little kid, playing, imagining, delighting in fantasies.
maryann
son, 5 1/2
daughter, 2
When I saw other girls or women I thought were beautiful or smart or cool or interesting, I wished I looked like them, wanted to know what it was like to Be them.
My mother and grandmothers always countered my wishes/comments about hair with, "But your hair is so pretty." and, "Your hair is like mine was when I was your age." and "Do you know how many people pay a LOT of money to have hair like yours?" and, "Well, you're never going to have straight blond hair, so you might as well get used to it, hahaha." I hated that. I was Very affected by that. They did not understand at all, took it personally that I wished for different hair, and tried to shame me into feeling ungrateful for not appreciating the hair I had.
I have a 5 year old son who pretends to be all kinds of star wars characters and superheroes and other characters he creates himself. Once, he cut his own bangs to look like one of them (with one curl hanging down). He wishes he could turn invisible, fly, use a light saber, jump really high, etc. My two year old daughter often pretends to be a cat or a dog or a penguin or other animals. She wishes she could have fur all over, and stripes. These things are not emotionally charged as race is, but I imagine your daughter's ideas are more related to pretending to be a superhero or a cat than they are about race. (for her)
This book, recommended by Sandra, helped me a Lot when my sweet little boy started wanting to pretend things that I didn't understand. http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Monsters-Children-Make-Believe-Violence/dp/0465036961/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332766703&sr=8-1
It applies to pretending and acting and emulating characters. I think it would really help you.
I haven't wished for blond hair in a long time, (though if I did, I would dye mine) but I'm Still working on baggage of resentment from my childhood for feeling guilty for wanting something that my elders believed I shouldn't want. They believed if I were grateful for myself, I wouldn't want that. If I wanted that, it meant I was ungrateful for myself and ungrateful for them. (Heavy stuff!!)
Now I see that I was simply a little kid, playing, imagining, delighting in fantasies.
maryann
son, 5 1/2
daughter, 2
Genevieve Raymond
I think these these articles about studies that have been done on kids and
race are worth bringing here. It's more about how white parents talk about
race (or actually, don't) than about how parents of color talk about race,
so I'm not sure how relevant they are to the original post, but definitely
relevant to the discussion.
http://www.salon.com/2009/09/11/colorblind_myth/ (synopsis of the Newsweek
article below)
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/09/04/see-baby-discriminate.html
(and
the Newsweek article which is the synopsis of a chapter in a book)
I don't think anybody has said in the discussions on this list that kids
are or should be colorblind, but there has been quite a lot of reference to
the idea that kids are just noticing differences in skin color, not
actually making judgments about people and their relative social status
based on race. I don't think race needs to be introduced in a heavy,
guilt-laden way (for white kids) or a preparation-for-bias way (for kids of
color), but these studies say that if we don't talk about race at all, kids
are left to come to their own conclusions, which tend to be more
narrow-minded and segregationist than we, as parents, would like to
believe.
Genevieve
race are worth bringing here. It's more about how white parents talk about
race (or actually, don't) than about how parents of color talk about race,
so I'm not sure how relevant they are to the original post, but definitely
relevant to the discussion.
http://www.salon.com/2009/09/11/colorblind_myth/ (synopsis of the Newsweek
article below)
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/09/04/see-baby-discriminate.html
(and
the Newsweek article which is the synopsis of a chapter in a book)
I don't think anybody has said in the discussions on this list that kids
are or should be colorblind, but there has been quite a lot of reference to
the idea that kids are just noticing differences in skin color, not
actually making judgments about people and their relative social status
based on race. I don't think race needs to be introduced in a heavy,
guilt-laden way (for white kids) or a preparation-for-bias way (for kids of
color), but these studies say that if we don't talk about race at all, kids
are left to come to their own conclusions, which tend to be more
narrow-minded and segregationist than we, as parents, would like to
believe.
Genevieve
On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 6:21 AM, maryann <maryannh@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> For a four year old, especially since you've said you haven't talked much
> about race yet, I think it's purely about color. I have always had brown
> curly hair and white skin with freckles. Most of the time, from an early
> age, I wished I had straight hair, either blond or black, and skin that
> tanned easily or olive or red or black skin. Oh, and blue eyes. (Mine are
> brown.)
>
> When I saw other girls or women I thought were beautiful or smart or cool
> or interesting, I wished I looked like them, wanted to know what it was
> like to Be them.
>
> My mother and grandmothers always countered my wishes/comments about hair
> with, "But your hair is so pretty." and, "Your hair is like mine was when I
> was your age." and "Do you know how many people pay a LOT of money to have
> hair like yours?" and, "Well, you're never going to have straight blond
> hair, so you might as well get used to it, hahaha." I hated that. I was
> Very affected by that. They did not understand at all, took it personally
> that I wished for different hair, and tried to shame me into feeling
> ungrateful for not appreciating the hair I had.
>
> I have a 5 year old son who pretends to be all kinds of star wars
> characters and superheroes and other characters he creates himself. Once,
> he cut his own bangs to look like one of them (with one curl hanging down).
> He wishes he could turn invisible, fly, use a light saber, jump really
> high, etc. My two year old daughter often pretends to be a cat or a dog or
> a penguin or other animals. She wishes she could have fur all over, and
> stripes. These things are not emotionally charged as race is, but I imagine
> your daughter's ideas are more related to pretending to be a superhero or a
> cat than they are about race. (for her)
>
> This book, recommended by Sandra, helped me a Lot when my sweet little boy
> started wanting to pretend things that I didn't understand.
> http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Monsters-Children-Make-Believe-Violence/dp/0465036961/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332766703&sr=8-1
>
> It applies to pretending and acting and emulating characters. I think it
> would really help you.
>
> I haven't wished for blond hair in a long time, (though if I did, I would
> dye mine) but I'm Still working on baggage of resentment from my childhood
> for feeling guilty for wanting something that my elders believed I
> shouldn't want. They believed if I were grateful for myself, I wouldn't
> want that. If I wanted that, it meant I was ungrateful for myself and
> ungrateful for them. (Heavy stuff!!)
>
> Now I see that I was simply a little kid, playing, imagining, delighting
> in fantasies.
>
> maryann
> son, 5 1/2
> daughter, 2
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
maryann
<<<<<...but I wish my daughter thought of herself as beautiful just as she is! She really is a beautiful girl.
<<<<<
This was the reasoning behind my mother and grandmothers' responses to me wishing to look different as a child, too. And that they wanted me to think of them as beautiful. I was also discouraged from pretending careers that weren't good enough because my mom wanted me to know I could be anything I wanted (especially a doctor like she wanted me to be).
I've thought about this a lot. If we want someone to know they are beautiful, it's important to accept them and embrace them just as they are. "Who we are" includes our interests and wants and desires and preferences, not just how we look or act. Right now, who your daughter *is* is a four year old who wants to be like her favorite character. Treating THAT as beautiful, is treating HER as beautiful. Treating her as a beautiful person just as she IS, every part of who she is, will go a long way toward her seeing herself as a beautiful person with good ideas who is worthy and valuable.
Enjoy her enjoyment of imagining she is Barbie.
Don't take it personally that at that moment she is not imagining she is you. Do you see how that is You wishing your daughter were different? Do you see how that implies that she would be more beautiful if she had different thoughts and preferences? That puts her in a position of having to choose between being the way that seems right to her (which you think is wrong/bad) or being the way that is right to you (but doesn't reflect her true feelings).
Would you take it personally and consider discouraging her if she said it would be fun to be blue like Jewel from the movie Rio? If she were sudsing up and said, "Look, I'm white like Donald Duck", would you still have said 'But wouldn't you rather be brown like me?' At that moment, telling her the natural color was better than what she was pretending sent the message that she was wrong to want to pretend to be her favorite character.
maryann
<<<<<
This was the reasoning behind my mother and grandmothers' responses to me wishing to look different as a child, too. And that they wanted me to think of them as beautiful. I was also discouraged from pretending careers that weren't good enough because my mom wanted me to know I could be anything I wanted (especially a doctor like she wanted me to be).
I've thought about this a lot. If we want someone to know they are beautiful, it's important to accept them and embrace them just as they are. "Who we are" includes our interests and wants and desires and preferences, not just how we look or act. Right now, who your daughter *is* is a four year old who wants to be like her favorite character. Treating THAT as beautiful, is treating HER as beautiful. Treating her as a beautiful person just as she IS, every part of who she is, will go a long way toward her seeing herself as a beautiful person with good ideas who is worthy and valuable.
Enjoy her enjoyment of imagining she is Barbie.
Don't take it personally that at that moment she is not imagining she is you. Do you see how that is You wishing your daughter were different? Do you see how that implies that she would be more beautiful if she had different thoughts and preferences? That puts her in a position of having to choose between being the way that seems right to her (which you think is wrong/bad) or being the way that is right to you (but doesn't reflect her true feelings).
Would you take it personally and consider discouraging her if she said it would be fun to be blue like Jewel from the movie Rio? If she were sudsing up and said, "Look, I'm white like Donald Duck", would you still have said 'But wouldn't you rather be brown like me?' At that moment, telling her the natural color was better than what she was pretending sent the message that she was wrong to want to pretend to be her favorite character.
maryann
maryann
Genevieve, thank you for sharing that information. I'm interested in that book.
I posted another response, with a reference to blue skin, before I read yours. I hope I didn't offend anyone in any way. I am not extremely experienced in discussing race-related issues, but did want to share my impressions based on my own experiences as a traditionally parented child and as a parent working to apply unschooling philosophy with my own children in what I saw as similar situations. I really do think it's possible that a four year old could be seeing white arms as part of a costume.
I do agree that issues of race are important to discuss with our children.
maryann
I posted another response, with a reference to blue skin, before I read yours. I hope I didn't offend anyone in any way. I am not extremely experienced in discussing race-related issues, but did want to share my impressions based on my own experiences as a traditionally parented child and as a parent working to apply unschooling philosophy with my own children in what I saw as similar situations. I really do think it's possible that a four year old could be seeing white arms as part of a costume.
I do agree that issues of race are important to discuss with our children.
maryann
--- In [email protected], Genevieve Raymond <genevieve.raymond@...> wrote:
>
> I think these these articles about studies that have been done on kids and
> race are worth bringing here. It's more about how white parents talk about
> race (or actually, don't) than about how parents of color talk about race,
> so I'm not sure how relevant they are to the original post, but definitely
> relevant to the discussion.
>
> http://www.salon.com/2009/09/11/colorblind_myth/ (synopsis of the Newsweek
> article below)
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/09/04/see-baby-discriminate.html
> (and
> the Newsweek article which is the synopsis of a chapter in a book)
>
> I don't think anybody has said in the discussions on this list that kids
> are or should be colorblind, but there has been quite a lot of reference to
> the idea that kids are just noticing differences in skin color, not
> actually making judgments about people and their relative social status
> based on race. I don't think race needs to be introduced in a heavy,
> guilt-laden way (for white kids) or a preparation-for-bias way (for kids of
> color), but these studies say that if we don't talk about race at all, kids
> are left to come to their own conclusions, which tend to be more
> narrow-minded and segregationist than we, as parents, would like to
> believe.
>
> Genevieve
Sandra Dodd
-=-I do agree that issues of race are important to discuss with our children. -=-
I think it can come up naturally in better ways than parents can look in a book, see that a study says that school kids don't learn about race the way their parents wish the did, and then they (the unschooling parents) "discuss race."
It's a part of life. Being matter-of-fact and answering questions or commenting as situations come up is better than any sort of "curriculum" or lessons.
Holly mentioned yesterday that her boyfriend (her age, went to school) "didn't get much from his parents." She said his dad is more prejudiced than he (the son) is, and that she figures it was because of going to public school. That might be, but anyone their age who grew up in New Mexico is likely to be less prejudiced than people their parents' or grandparents' ages.
When my grandmother was in jr. high and high school in Carizozo in SE New Mexico in the 1920's her best friend was (in her words) "a Mexican girl." Half of Holly's friends are Hispanic or partially so. Intermarriage is common here; Sometimes it seems there are more mixed race couple (African-American and anglo or Hispanic or Indian) than not. What our kids know is different from what we can explain to them, in some ways. There were things I could explain to my parents, who were more prejudiced that I was (but were consciously trying to overcome their own upbringing).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think it can come up naturally in better ways than parents can look in a book, see that a study says that school kids don't learn about race the way their parents wish the did, and then they (the unschooling parents) "discuss race."
It's a part of life. Being matter-of-fact and answering questions or commenting as situations come up is better than any sort of "curriculum" or lessons.
Holly mentioned yesterday that her boyfriend (her age, went to school) "didn't get much from his parents." She said his dad is more prejudiced than he (the son) is, and that she figures it was because of going to public school. That might be, but anyone their age who grew up in New Mexico is likely to be less prejudiced than people their parents' or grandparents' ages.
When my grandmother was in jr. high and high school in Carizozo in SE New Mexico in the 1920's her best friend was (in her words) "a Mexican girl." Half of Holly's friends are Hispanic or partially so. Intermarriage is common here; Sometimes it seems there are more mixed race couple (African-American and anglo or Hispanic or Indian) than not. What our kids know is different from what we can explain to them, in some ways. There were things I could explain to my parents, who were more prejudiced that I was (but were consciously trying to overcome their own upbringing).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I don't think race needs to be introduced in a heavy,
guilt-laden way (for white kids) or a preparation-for-bias way (for kids of
color), but these studies say that if we don't talk about race at all, kids
are left to come to their own conclusions, which tend to be more
narrow-minded and segregationist than we, as parents, would like to
believe.***
I think that's true for kids in school, who are heavily influenced by peer pressure, who aren't as influenced by their parents. It is not the reality of what I've experienced with my own kids being at home.
My oldest daughter's very first best friend, which she met when they were both babies and continued on being best friends for 10 yrs before they were distanced by school, was/is brown. That is the color they both attributed to her skin. When they were little, the friend played with the white baby dolls and my daughter played with the brown baby dolls. It wasn't something they talked about, they just played.
Our entire extended family is mixed. My kids have been surrounded by many different people since they were little. We didn't talk about race or skin color. I remember the first time we ever really talked about such things was when my oldest became interested in Anne Frank and the Holocaust. She watched a lot of things related to that. I remember the complete and utter shock she had when she discovered that people of color were taken from Africa and brought to other countries to be slaves and that those same people didn't have any kind of rights in our country for many years and that it wasn't that long ago when the civil rights movements happened. For her, it was so out of her realm of understanding how this could be so, since her very own best friend would have lived in a different neighborhood, gone to a different school, if they'd both been born just a few decades before.
She simply didn't grow up seeing the color of ones skin as somehow setting them apart or being different. It never was a part of how she categorized people.
Kids in school, on the other hand, DO categorize others based on many many things, primarily the way others look, skin color included. How else can they go about it? They get put into a group of strangers and are left to make their own ideas and fend for themselves socially. That simply isn't how my own kids have navigated the social world. They've met people through little connections, through mutual friends and family and made decisions based on how they feel about individuals, not nearly as much based on looks, but on who they are as people.
I don't think parents who unschool NEED to talk about race issues. I think it will come up naturally in the course of their life and can be discussed or merely glanced at. Kids who live in families where the parents are conscientious and kind, will naturally gravitate to that manner of relating to others and it won't matter what color of skin someone has.
I've met a lot of unschooled kids and I've not met a single one that was segregationist and/or narrow minded about the color of a person's skin. I've met LOTS of schooled kids that have been mistreated because of the way they look, and LOTS of schooled kids that mistreat others for the same reasons. Schools are breeding grounds for discrimination and that's why they take such loud proactive steps to try to make kids not be segregationists or narrow minded. It just doesn't work. It's why studies and articles are written to tell parents to talk about these things, because even schools know that parents have a bigger influence than they do. So if parents have kids in school, then they should talk about these things, for no other reason than to counter the experiences they have every day while fending for themselves in hostile social environments.
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guilt-laden way (for white kids) or a preparation-for-bias way (for kids of
color), but these studies say that if we don't talk about race at all, kids
are left to come to their own conclusions, which tend to be more
narrow-minded and segregationist than we, as parents, would like to
believe.***
I think that's true for kids in school, who are heavily influenced by peer pressure, who aren't as influenced by their parents. It is not the reality of what I've experienced with my own kids being at home.
My oldest daughter's very first best friend, which she met when they were both babies and continued on being best friends for 10 yrs before they were distanced by school, was/is brown. That is the color they both attributed to her skin. When they were little, the friend played with the white baby dolls and my daughter played with the brown baby dolls. It wasn't something they talked about, they just played.
Our entire extended family is mixed. My kids have been surrounded by many different people since they were little. We didn't talk about race or skin color. I remember the first time we ever really talked about such things was when my oldest became interested in Anne Frank and the Holocaust. She watched a lot of things related to that. I remember the complete and utter shock she had when she discovered that people of color were taken from Africa and brought to other countries to be slaves and that those same people didn't have any kind of rights in our country for many years and that it wasn't that long ago when the civil rights movements happened. For her, it was so out of her realm of understanding how this could be so, since her very own best friend would have lived in a different neighborhood, gone to a different school, if they'd both been born just a few decades before.
She simply didn't grow up seeing the color of ones skin as somehow setting them apart or being different. It never was a part of how she categorized people.
Kids in school, on the other hand, DO categorize others based on many many things, primarily the way others look, skin color included. How else can they go about it? They get put into a group of strangers and are left to make their own ideas and fend for themselves socially. That simply isn't how my own kids have navigated the social world. They've met people through little connections, through mutual friends and family and made decisions based on how they feel about individuals, not nearly as much based on looks, but on who they are as people.
I don't think parents who unschool NEED to talk about race issues. I think it will come up naturally in the course of their life and can be discussed or merely glanced at. Kids who live in families where the parents are conscientious and kind, will naturally gravitate to that manner of relating to others and it won't matter what color of skin someone has.
I've met a lot of unschooled kids and I've not met a single one that was segregationist and/or narrow minded about the color of a person's skin. I've met LOTS of schooled kids that have been mistreated because of the way they look, and LOTS of schooled kids that mistreat others for the same reasons. Schools are breeding grounds for discrimination and that's why they take such loud proactive steps to try to make kids not be segregationists or narrow minded. It just doesn't work. It's why studies and articles are written to tell parents to talk about these things, because even schools know that parents have a bigger influence than they do. So if parents have kids in school, then they should talk about these things, for no other reason than to counter the experiences they have every day while fending for themselves in hostile social environments.
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Pam Sorooshian
On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 1:19 PM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
shock sometimes. I think about how few generations ago that was. The idea
that there could be someone alive today whose parent was born a slave
(right? If someone was, say, 100 years old now and was born to a 50 year
old parent, that parent would have been born in 1862) - and lots of people
with grandparents who were slaves - just unbelievable. When I was born (60
years ago) there were lots of people still living who had BEEN slaves.
Again - just so hard to believe that this even happened....no wonder it is
still a very very difficult thing to discuss or deal with and the
repercussions are still so very very much with us.
-pam
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> I remember the complete and utter shock she had when she discovered thatI remember my OWN complete and utter shock and I still re-experience that
> people of color were taken from Africa and brought to other countries to be
> slaves>>>
shock sometimes. I think about how few generations ago that was. The idea
that there could be someone alive today whose parent was born a slave
(right? If someone was, say, 100 years old now and was born to a 50 year
old parent, that parent would have been born in 1862) - and lots of people
with grandparents who were slaves - just unbelievable. When I was born (60
years ago) there were lots of people still living who had BEEN slaves.
Again - just so hard to believe that this even happened....no wonder it is
still a very very difficult thing to discuss or deal with and the
repercussions are still so very very much with us.
-pam
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catfish_friend
> --- Schools are breeding grounds for discrimination and that's why they take such loud proactive steps to try to make kids not be segregationists or narrow minded. It just doesn't work. It's why studies and articles are written to tell parents to talk about these things, because even schools know that parents have a bigger influence than they do. So if parents have kids in school, then they should talk about these things, for no other reason than to counter the experiences they have every day while fending for themselves in hostile social environments. ---I went to public school K-12 in a highly regarded US county for education. The schools I attended were diverse racially and socioeconomically. They also had many cliques, and race and/or class did not necessarily determine what clique you were in, but rather, how the individual identified him or herself. I value the exposure and experience I had partying in the projects one weekend and then on the largest privately owned parcel of land in the county the next weekend. My friends crossed races, cultures, classes and teenage social cliques. Was it the school? Was it the parents of the students? Was it the diversity of the population? Most of the students were from the immediate area and had grown up in a diverse environment even if individuals also subscribed to groups specific to their family's heritage. I had a friend who was a youth Zionist and also a friend who was president of the Muslim Youth Council. These two were also friends. I had friends who were geeks, jocks, treehuggers, stoners, headbangers, new wavers (does this dates me?!), artists, punks, thespians and skaters...there were still more cliques but never in such a way that one was better than another and no two groups were in any kind of opposition.
I think it can be a gross generalization to say that "schools are breeding grounds for discrimination". I also think it is easy on an Unschooling list to badmouth school for many things. I personally believe that one of the greatest challenges for me Unschooling and homeschooling in general is that my children's access to and experience with diversity is largely my responsibility. Talking about issues related to race and class is a world away from having friends from different races and classes. While I live in one of the largest and most diverse cities in the US (Los Angeles), it is a largely segregated city -- by race and by class, and even by sexual orientation.
School or unschool, I think what is omitted in our experience, interactions and conversations our children (and we) have is something to think about. That is the biggest "take away" for me from the article mentioned in this thread. I'm grateful to be able to unschool and present opportunities for my girls that may otherwise have been omitted in a traditional education. I am grateful to be able to consider on a moment-to-moment basis what I can share of my experience with my girls. I am grateful for how Unschooling is opening up my world, too, as I learn more in areas that my children show interest in or ask questions about the things they are experiencing.
Now, I only have to figure out how to approach my 5.5 year old's desire "to save the Universe". It came unprompted after she learned how sea creatures can get sick and die when they mistake human trash in the ocean for food. It started with wanting to keep trash out of the ocean and tonight she shared a plan to bake cookies to make money to buy a house to store all the trash she keeps out of the ocean until our family friend artist/scavenger/sculptor can make kids' toys out of the trash and put them in toy stores.
I love Unschooling!
Ceci
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think it can be a gross generalization to say that "schools are breeding grounds for discrimination". I also think it is easy on an Unschooling list to badmouth school for many things. I personally believe that one of the greatest challenges for me Unschooling and homeschooling in general is that my children's access to and experience with diversity is largely my responsibility. Talking about issues related to race and class is a world away from having friends from different races and classes. While I live in one of the largest and most diverse cities in the US (Los Angeles), it is a largely segregated city -- by race and by class, and even by sexual orientation.--=-
I agree.
Holly's boyfriend went to Albuquerque High, which is probably the most "diverse" high school of the ten or so in Albuquerque. He didn't live near it; he went there to follow friends he made at an arts-magnet midschool. He chose to be there, to pursue art and music with people he respected. That made a difference.
Holly's glad he doesn't have his parents' prejudices.
I went to a school that was 7o% Hispanic, 15% Indian and 15% Anglo, in the 1960's in Española, New Mexico. There are people I wouldn't have met if I had been homeschooled (had there even been any such opportunity in those days), but I also knew kids through mutual friends who went to Catholic schools in Santa Fe, and to a Protestant boarding school in our town.
School is part of life, not all of life. Parents can make that better or worse.
Some unschooled kids can end up in school through none of their fault or choice, if their parents are unable to continue having them at home (injury, disease, divorce, death--extreme situations), and so it's better if parents haven't villified school and written them off (schools) even in their own minds as places of inevitable evil.
Sandra
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I agree.
Holly's boyfriend went to Albuquerque High, which is probably the most "diverse" high school of the ten or so in Albuquerque. He didn't live near it; he went there to follow friends he made at an arts-magnet midschool. He chose to be there, to pursue art and music with people he respected. That made a difference.
Holly's glad he doesn't have his parents' prejudices.
I went to a school that was 7o% Hispanic, 15% Indian and 15% Anglo, in the 1960's in Española, New Mexico. There are people I wouldn't have met if I had been homeschooled (had there even been any such opportunity in those days), but I also knew kids through mutual friends who went to Catholic schools in Santa Fe, and to a Protestant boarding school in our town.
School is part of life, not all of life. Parents can make that better or worse.
Some unschooled kids can end up in school through none of their fault or choice, if their parents are unable to continue having them at home (injury, disease, divorce, death--extreme situations), and so it's better if parents haven't villified school and written them off (schools) even in their own minds as places of inevitable evil.
Sandra
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LydiaK
I want to thank everyone who responded to my questions. I have been thinking and reading and have been able to relax a lot about both the problems, for now. The next movie we are renting from Netflix is the Brandy Cinderella one, and I am thinking about how to expand the diversity of our social circle as well. Right now the only other Black people we hang out with regularly are my sister and her family. So far Nisa has not asked me questions about race and I will just wait for it to come up naturally. I am also working on not overreacting when she is eating dirt and gently stopping her or redirecting without too much comment. I loved all the ideas about seeing that she may have a need that is being filled by eating dirt, and finding ways to try and meet it in more acceptable ways.
Lydia Koltai
Lydia Koltai
--- In [email protected], "LydiaK" <princessjasmine05@...> wrote:
>
> I have two issues I have been trying to deal with for a little while now unsuccessfully. One is that my four year old daughter, Nisa, loves blonde hair and white skin. I am Black and my husband is Jewish (White, but he likes to say Jewish). Nisa has fairly light skin and dark hair. She loves the Barbie movies and we have watched nearly every one together. I love many of them too, which is surprising because I didn't like Barbie much as a kid. Since getting into Barbie, Nisa has started saying that she wishes she had white skin and blonde hair almost every day. Today we were playing with shaving cream and water beads, and she rubbed the shaving cream on her arms and told me she now had white skin and was very happy about it. I lightly said "I liked your skin before." When she asked why, I said because she had skin that was a mix between mine and her dad's. I asked her what she thought of my skin and she said "Well I think it's kind of ugly." That hurt my feelings. I didn't say that to her, because I thought I might have been too emotionally charged and discounting her preferences in initiating that conversation to begin with, although I tried to stay as neutral as possible.
>
> Having a daughter who wishes to be whiter has been triggering me in lots of ways. We haven't talked to her about race or history, although we do live in the South. As a kid, my parents talked to me LOTS about race and history, slavery, Jim Crow, and their own experiences etc.; and I don't want to do that with her in the same way because it made me feel very angry at a young age. My sister and I also went to a private school from 3rd-10th grade where we were the first Black students to attend (it was a school that was established in response to forced integration in 1969). It was very uncomfortable, and we were brought into the principal's office to talk about our race and how some students might treat us unkindly when we started school there. I was always on the lookout and on the defensive after that. So I am not sure that is a great approach. There were some incidents but in retrospect I wonder if they would have been easier to handle if I had been helped in gentler ways.
>
> In my family growing up, if I had expressed the preferences Nisa has, my parents would have ridiculed me. My parents also often told us not to trust our White friends at school because they would eventually betray us. I think it might have been kinder to wait until there was an actual issue and then discuss it in that context than to set us up to be looking for those kinds of things. I could never really relax at that school and was glad when I left.
>
> I might be tacking too much significance to her preferences, but I feel like she has learned from watching Barbie that having brown skin isn't as beautiful or as preferable as white skin. That she has somehow absorbed these messages from our culture, as depicted by Barbie. Then again, maybe it is as simple as she is identifying with a character she likes. I don't know. She had been asking me for a blonde wig for months and I did buy her one to play dress up in at home. I was happy to give it to her and to see her joy at having it. It really is no different than having a princess dress and pretending to be a princess, but my baggage keeps me from feeling that way sometimes.
>
> On the one hand, I would like my daughter to get to just be a kid. I don't want to burden her with too much information or political and social justice issues. I just don't really know what is an appropriate way to deal with discussing race and identity with her, or if it is appropriate right now. Or how to discuss that beauty isn't only white skin and blonde hair, when that is her current model of beauty. Or how to deal with my own issues and not pass them along to her. I do think Barbie in the movies is beautiful and has many admirable qualities; but I wish my daughter thought of herself as beautiful just as she is! She really is a beautiful girl.
>
> The other issue is how to deal with situations where my children are doing things that are socially unacceptable. This has come up several times on this list recently, and has been on my mind for a while as well. My biggest problem is that Nisa likes to eat dirt and sand. She will gleefully do it more if I tell her not to. She often shoves handfuls into her mouth before we go somewhere (while we are outside in the driveway about to get in the car), and sometimes when she is at the park or something like that. I tell her to stop firmly and take her hand from her mouth and clean her up. It is mortifying. I believe if people see her eating dirt, it will cause problems for our family. I don't understand why she does this; when I ask her she says because it tastes good.
>
> My husband thinks Nisa's public dirt eating is no big deal. Just a couple of weeks ago, he took her to a neighbor's house to see some horses, and I wasn't there. He told me she was eating dirt from the driveway in front of the neighbor, whom we had just met that day; and that the neighbor said she should go back to our house and eat our dirt, expressing his discomfort. Maybe he was not that uncomfortable, I don't know because I wasn't there, but I imagine he was. My husband said he just laughed and did not stop her. She also picks her nose in public and I have told her that is impolite and I have also said "other people don't like to see that" and other short, informative phrases like that. I have also sometimes talked too much. She still does it; when I see her do it, I take her hand from her nose and often she will just go right back to doing it. I will offer her a tissue or a trip to the bathroom but she doesn't take me up on those often. Sometimes, with the dirt eating, I wonder if there is a deeper reason she is doing this--sometimes she will look right at me when she is doing it, like she wants to get my reaction, which is usually pretty horrified, especially if we are in public.
>
> My husband, I should mention, frequently does not pick up on social cues. His father is the same way. So there could be a genetic predisposition, or it could be normal four year old behavior, or she could be feeling defiant in which case I need to figure out why . . . . Those are my main theories at the moment.
>
> I suppose I should be calmer in my response, but continue to stop her from doing these things. Maybe I will have to keep stopping her over and over. But it seems to me that I am doing something wrong here. If I was doing this right, my daughter would be trusting me and not continuing to do something that is inappropriate. So far that is not happening.
>
> Lydia Koltai
>