So Confused!!!
Amy
I am new to the list and the more I try to understand unschooling the more confused I seem to become. I think I do not have a clear picture of what it really is. In the beginning, I thought it seemed permissive and ego centric.
I only know of one family in my community that "unschools." By her own admission she says that most unschoolers would not even consider her to be an unschooler. She does not use a curriculum, but considers her style to be more of a montessori method. So this is what I thought unschooling meant- no curriculum... And then I stumbled on to AlwaysLearning.
I am a Catholic. I am coservative. And I believe in trying to preserve my children's innocense. This makes me wonder if I can truly unschool. Since being on this group, I have seriously started to reevaluate some of my ideas on child rearing. However, there are things that I just do not see myself giving up my control over. Some examples are: 1. Going to church 2. Listening to music or watching programs with sexual content.
My daughter is 10 and loves being a child. She is in no rush to grow up. She loves playing with her dolls and barbies still. She has asked for an american girl doll for Christmas. I have the impression and I might be wrong, but I feel like most unschooled children probably know a lot more about "life" than she does.
So I wonder if this unschooling lifestyle is not suited for me and I should just be eclectic.
I hope that I have posted correctly. I read all of the info on posting to the list. My thoughts are heartfelt and do not intend to spark debates.
I only know of one family in my community that "unschools." By her own admission she says that most unschoolers would not even consider her to be an unschooler. She does not use a curriculum, but considers her style to be more of a montessori method. So this is what I thought unschooling meant- no curriculum... And then I stumbled on to AlwaysLearning.
I am a Catholic. I am coservative. And I believe in trying to preserve my children's innocense. This makes me wonder if I can truly unschool. Since being on this group, I have seriously started to reevaluate some of my ideas on child rearing. However, there are things that I just do not see myself giving up my control over. Some examples are: 1. Going to church 2. Listening to music or watching programs with sexual content.
My daughter is 10 and loves being a child. She is in no rush to grow up. She loves playing with her dolls and barbies still. She has asked for an american girl doll for Christmas. I have the impression and I might be wrong, but I feel like most unschooled children probably know a lot more about "life" than she does.
So I wonder if this unschooling lifestyle is not suited for me and I should just be eclectic.
I hope that I have posted correctly. I read all of the info on posting to the list. My thoughts are heartfelt and do not intend to spark debates.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think I do not have a clear picture of what it really is. In the beginning, I thought it seemed permissive and ego centric.-=-
Whose ego? Parent or child? :-)
These might help you form a fuller picture of the range of things we're discussing.
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition.html
http://sandradodd.com/typical
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Whose ego? Parent or child? :-)
These might help you form a fuller picture of the range of things we're discussing.
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition.html
http://sandradodd.com/typical
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I believe in trying to preserve my children's innocense. This makes me wonder if I can truly unschool. Since being on this group, I have seriously started to reevaluate some of my ideas on child rearing.-=-
My oldest was much more innocent than his two younger siblings. It's easy with an only child. He didn't mind at all not knowing more, and by the time there was a third child and the older kids had discovered a rougher, larger world, she didn't know otherwise, and all in all the results weren't different. They all were (still are) interested in a great range of things. Holly watched cartoons this week. My oldest sent me a link to a Sesame Street song done in a different style on facebook today.
-=- I feel like most unschooled children probably know a lot more about "life" than she does.-=-
There can be too much knowledge and too little, and maybe the best thing is not to decide in advance exactly what it will be, since you can influence but not control.
-=-So I wonder if this unschooling lifestyle is not suited for me and I should just be eclectic. -=-
Even if you decide unschooling is too far from your comfort level, there might be ideas you can use. Nobody has to sign up; there's not a test; no inspectors will call.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My oldest was much more innocent than his two younger siblings. It's easy with an only child. He didn't mind at all not knowing more, and by the time there was a third child and the older kids had discovered a rougher, larger world, she didn't know otherwise, and all in all the results weren't different. They all were (still are) interested in a great range of things. Holly watched cartoons this week. My oldest sent me a link to a Sesame Street song done in a different style on facebook today.
-=- I feel like most unschooled children probably know a lot more about "life" than she does.-=-
There can be too much knowledge and too little, and maybe the best thing is not to decide in advance exactly what it will be, since you can influence but not control.
-=-So I wonder if this unschooling lifestyle is not suited for me and I should just be eclectic. -=-
Even if you decide unschooling is too far from your comfort level, there might be ideas you can use. Nobody has to sign up; there's not a test; no inspectors will call.
Sandra
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Amy Modlin
- = - Whose ego? Parent or child? :-) - = -
I thought the parents seemed to be feeding the child's ego to excess. My oppinion has changed on that point. Not 100%, but I do believe I have come a long way. I have definitely started to see my son and daughter as people not JUST children. Their needs and wants are no less significant just because their children.
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2011 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] So Confused!!!
-=-I think I do not have a clear picture of what it really is. In the beginning, I thought it seemed permissive and ego centric.-=-
Whose ego? Parent or child? :-)
These might help you form a fuller picture of the range of things we're discussing.
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition.html
http://sandradodd.com/typical
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I thought the parents seemed to be feeding the child's ego to excess. My oppinion has changed on that point. Not 100%, but I do believe I have come a long way. I have definitely started to see my son and daughter as people not JUST children. Their needs and wants are no less significant just because their children.
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 9, 2011 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] So Confused!!!
-=-I think I do not have a clear picture of what it really is. In the beginning, I thought it seemed permissive and ego centric.-=-
Whose ego? Parent or child? :-)
These might help you form a fuller picture of the range of things we're discussing.
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition.html
http://sandradodd.com/typical
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Claire
>>>>> I am new to the list and the more I try to understand unschooling the more confused I seem to become. I think I do not have a clear picture of what it really is. >>>>>>>>Unschooling is a way of life in which a close, honest and loving relationship between parent and child forms the scaffolding (a great term I read on this list) for a life of learning. Parents use their experience and resourcefulness to provide their kids with a life rich in possibilities and opportunities. In an unschooling context, notions of 'permissiveness' and 'ego-centricity' fall away; instead there is the idea of helping kids explore their interests, and actively nurturing a close and trusting relationship between parent and child.
You can hold strong convictions and still be an unschooler if you allow that those convictions may not suit other people. I have been a vegetarian for over 15 years, but I happily buy and cook organic meat for my kids because they like it. I also cook lots of meatless meals which they also enjoy. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Just attending church does not make your children Catholic. Missing church will not instantly destroy any beliefs they may hold. Lived principles are much more convincing than sermons. Your children are more likely to share your principles if those principles support a loving and respectful relationship between you.
As for sexual matters, my kids are 6 & 4, and their knowledge of sex has mainly come through watching nature documentaries. So they started by seeing animals mating, and seeing that this led to babies being born, and gradually there has come the realisation that this applies to the human animal too! I have kept any conversations about sex at a very basic, matter-of-fact level, allowing them to ask for information as they need it. I have no fear around the topic, I don't want to ever give the impression that sex and bodies are somehow shameful, but there's no need to go into too much detail at this point.
Unschooling can be hard work, but the rewards are huge.
Claire
Melbourne, Australia
Meredith
"Amy" <amymodlin@...> wrote:
If going to church and catechism are things your kids enjoy, then the issue of "control" need never not come up. It's just a part of your family culture like going to coffee shops and working crossword puzzles are part of My family culture. The issues come up if kids don't want to go - and there are plenty of ways to live a Christian lifestyle, even a Catholic lifestyle, without forcing unhappy children to resent having to sit through yet another dull service or class.
That's when it helps to get past the surface of what unschoolers do and think about why you want certain things for your kids. Is it really "going to church" which is important? Or your kids relationship with their creator? One does not depend on the other.
2. Listening to music or watching programs with sexual content.
Do your kids Want to listen to music or watch programs with sexual content? That's a big mistake a lot of parents make, thinking that those sorts of topics have any interest to little kids. Mostly they find them dull or vaguely icky - until the hormones start flowing and then all the attempts in the world won't "preserve" a child's "innocence". Sheltering them doesn't keep teenage girls from getting pregnant, and never has.
Which isn't to say you should expose your kids blindly to anything and everything - but adolescents who have had sex marked "off limits" *will* very often blindly expose themselves to anything and everything they can get their hands on, to find out what's the Big Secret. Too much "sheltering" very often sets kids up to get hurt - or at best spectacularly misinformed.
Then she'll likely respond much like my daughter and cover her eyes voluntarily when mere kissing comes on the screen. No need to say "oh, look away, this is sexy!" she's already appalled.
In terms of music, the worst that would happen if your daughter heard something sexual is she'd ask about out. Correction! The worst that would happen is she'd be too worried about your reaction to ask You and would ask another kid and maybe get a slew of misinformation. The Best thing that could happen is she would ask you, giving you a chance to have a gentle, respectful conversation with your little girl.
Kids are curious and will ask awkward questions at times. The danger - a very very real danger! of sheltering them is they learn not to ask those awkward questions of their parents. How much do you trust the kids next door to get the details right?
---Meredith
>However, there are things that I just do not see myself giving up my control over. Some examples are: 1. Going to church******************
If going to church and catechism are things your kids enjoy, then the issue of "control" need never not come up. It's just a part of your family culture like going to coffee shops and working crossword puzzles are part of My family culture. The issues come up if kids don't want to go - and there are plenty of ways to live a Christian lifestyle, even a Catholic lifestyle, without forcing unhappy children to resent having to sit through yet another dull service or class.
That's when it helps to get past the surface of what unschoolers do and think about why you want certain things for your kids. Is it really "going to church" which is important? Or your kids relationship with their creator? One does not depend on the other.
2. Listening to music or watching programs with sexual content.
Do your kids Want to listen to music or watch programs with sexual content? That's a big mistake a lot of parents make, thinking that those sorts of topics have any interest to little kids. Mostly they find them dull or vaguely icky - until the hormones start flowing and then all the attempts in the world won't "preserve" a child's "innocence". Sheltering them doesn't keep teenage girls from getting pregnant, and never has.
Which isn't to say you should expose your kids blindly to anything and everything - but adolescents who have had sex marked "off limits" *will* very often blindly expose themselves to anything and everything they can get their hands on, to find out what's the Big Secret. Too much "sheltering" very often sets kids up to get hurt - or at best spectacularly misinformed.
>> My daughter is 10 and loves being a child. She is in no rush to grow up. She loves playing with her dolls and barbies still.********************
Then she'll likely respond much like my daughter and cover her eyes voluntarily when mere kissing comes on the screen. No need to say "oh, look away, this is sexy!" she's already appalled.
In terms of music, the worst that would happen if your daughter heard something sexual is she'd ask about out. Correction! The worst that would happen is she'd be too worried about your reaction to ask You and would ask another kid and maybe get a slew of misinformation. The Best thing that could happen is she would ask you, giving you a chance to have a gentle, respectful conversation with your little girl.
Kids are curious and will ask awkward questions at times. The danger - a very very real danger! of sheltering them is they learn not to ask those awkward questions of their parents. How much do you trust the kids next door to get the details right?
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 9, 2011, at 10:57 PM, Amy wrote:
If you think about the word preserving, it means keeping longer than it would naturally.
And if you examine the word "naturally" does it mean this here and now world or the safe, happy world created for most children's stories that adults assume kids want to live in.
Which is why it's important to put a high priority on the child's desires rather than the mom's desires for the child.
I think Christians have an easy out since they can say God wants this of us rather than the parent being the one making thm. ;-)
It probably gets especially confusing when list members are discussing letting go of controls. It *sounds* like people are saying you must let your kids watch any program on TV, you must get them a video game system, you must let them eat any and all foods. But you must not tell them about slaughter houses ;-)
But for unschooling the emphasis is on what the child wants and likes. Help them get more of what they like. Help them avoid what they don't like. It's not about opening the flood gates and allowing everything and anything to wash over the child. It's about partnering with them, using your greater knowledge to help them get more of what they like, show them things you believe they might like, and filtering out what *the child* isn't interested in.
The problem with saying no to a child *who wants to explore something* is that the no increases curiosity. A child whose parent is their partner in exploring, feels free to try something and decided they don't (yet) like it. If the parent is being a protective roadblock between the child and what the child's curious about, if the child gets to finally explore it (after pleading, after sneaking, after patiently waiting until they're "old enough") they've got a lot invested in getting to the thing that they'll hold onto it despite how they feel because they've finally "won" the right to do it.
The problem with saying yes to a child is they don't always have a good grasp of what they're asking to explore. That's where parents can lend their knowledge to provide a clearer picture. *Not* stack the information to convince the child to the mom's way of thinking. But provide information so the child can make a more informed choice. If she's choosing something that you're not entirely comfortable with, that's where being with her comes into play.
*If* a child knows her mom's priority is helping her explore, helping her get what she wants in safe, respectful doable ways, when the mom *does* occasionally say "No, I don't feel comfortable with that," that will be taken much differently than a child who hears lots of (protective) nos.
This is especially true of songs. We had this discussion a bit ago, and at least for me as a child, I didn't really process the words in songs, even though I love words :-) They were just sounds that enhanced the music like the guitar or the keyboards. I picked up some phrases but they were just words, not usually meaningful words. Now I listen to some songs that I listened to as a teen and think "Are they really saying what I think they're saying??" ;-) My sports nut husband probably listened a couple hundred times to Meatloaf's Paradise By the Dashboard Lights, about a guy getting to all the "bases" with his girlfriend, but it's done as a baseball play by play. And my husband thought the song was about baseball until he was in college ;-)
This won't be true of every child. It depends on their personality and what fascinates them. But the opposite that kids will absorb everything they see is not true either.
It depends on the child.
Joyce
> And I believe in trying to preserve my children's innocense.I like what Sandra said about not deciding in advance. Unschooling is responding to your child's wants and needs. Some kids
If you think about the word preserving, it means keeping longer than it would naturally.
And if you examine the word "naturally" does it mean this here and now world or the safe, happy world created for most children's stories that adults assume kids want to live in.
Which is why it's important to put a high priority on the child's desires rather than the mom's desires for the child.
> However, there are things that I just do not see myself giving up my control over. Some examples are: 1. Going to churchReligion is a separate philosophy. It's up to individual unschoolers to decide how to mesh them since there may be parts that are incompatible with each other.
I think Christians have an easy out since they can say God wants this of us rather than the parent being the one making thm. ;-)
> I have the impression and I might be wrong, but I feel like most unschooled children probably know a lot more about "life" than she does.Totally completely depends on the child.
It probably gets especially confusing when list members are discussing letting go of controls. It *sounds* like people are saying you must let your kids watch any program on TV, you must get them a video game system, you must let them eat any and all foods. But you must not tell them about slaughter houses ;-)
But for unschooling the emphasis is on what the child wants and likes. Help them get more of what they like. Help them avoid what they don't like. It's not about opening the flood gates and allowing everything and anything to wash over the child. It's about partnering with them, using your greater knowledge to help them get more of what they like, show them things you believe they might like, and filtering out what *the child* isn't interested in.
> 2. Listening to music or watching programs with sexual content.Does your child want to watch them? That's the key unschooling question.
The problem with saying no to a child *who wants to explore something* is that the no increases curiosity. A child whose parent is their partner in exploring, feels free to try something and decided they don't (yet) like it. If the parent is being a protective roadblock between the child and what the child's curious about, if the child gets to finally explore it (after pleading, after sneaking, after patiently waiting until they're "old enough") they've got a lot invested in getting to the thing that they'll hold onto it despite how they feel because they've finally "won" the right to do it.
The problem with saying yes to a child is they don't always have a good grasp of what they're asking to explore. That's where parents can lend their knowledge to provide a clearer picture. *Not* stack the information to convince the child to the mom's way of thinking. But provide information so the child can make a more informed choice. If she's choosing something that you're not entirely comfortable with, that's where being with her comes into play.
*If* a child knows her mom's priority is helping her explore, helping her get what she wants in safe, respectful doable ways, when the mom *does* occasionally say "No, I don't feel comfortable with that," that will be taken much differently than a child who hears lots of (protective) nos.
> 2. Listening to music or watching programs with sexual content.I do want to add that kids in general don't see the sexual content the same way adults do. It comes across *very* differently to kids. They may even be tuning it out. Just as they do to other parts of the movies, like the talky parts, the political maneuverings. Anything that isn't action or comedy ;-) They'll be thinking about something else until the good parts start up again.
This is especially true of songs. We had this discussion a bit ago, and at least for me as a child, I didn't really process the words in songs, even though I love words :-) They were just sounds that enhanced the music like the guitar or the keyboards. I picked up some phrases but they were just words, not usually meaningful words. Now I listen to some songs that I listened to as a teen and think "Are they really saying what I think they're saying??" ;-) My sports nut husband probably listened a couple hundred times to Meatloaf's Paradise By the Dashboard Lights, about a guy getting to all the "bases" with his girlfriend, but it's done as a baseball play by play. And my husband thought the song was about baseball until he was in college ;-)
This won't be true of every child. It depends on their personality and what fascinates them. But the opposite that kids will absorb everything they see is not true either.
It depends on the child.
Joyce
Meredith
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Ray has commented that the unschooling teens he's met seem very innocent to him. They cuddle more than other teens. They do goofy, sexy things, but they're mostly Goofy sexy things, not as hard edged and desperate as schooled teens. Ray only had a few years of unschooling, preceded by a couple very rough years in school, so he's harder and older and more jaded than the unschoolers he's met who are the same age. He's Not as jaded and hard as the local highschool kids - unschooling let him do a Lot of healing in that capacity - but he's not as sweet as kids who've had years more time to explore the scary process of growing up at their own pace.
---Meredith
>> My oldest was much more innocent than his two younger siblings. It's easy with an only child. He didn't mind at all not knowing more, and by the time there was a third child and the older kids had discovered a rougher, larger world, she didn't know otherwise, and all in all the results weren't different. They all were (still are) interested in a great range of things. Holly watched cartoons this week. My oldest sent me a link to a Sesame Street song done in a different style on facebook today.****************
Ray has commented that the unschooling teens he's met seem very innocent to him. They cuddle more than other teens. They do goofy, sexy things, but they're mostly Goofy sexy things, not as hard edged and desperate as schooled teens. Ray only had a few years of unschooling, preceded by a couple very rough years in school, so he's harder and older and more jaded than the unschoolers he's met who are the same age. He's Not as jaded and hard as the local highschool kids - unschooling let him do a Lot of healing in that capacity - but he's not as sweet as kids who've had years more time to explore the scary process of growing up at their own pace.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-This is especially true of songs. We had this discussion a bit ago, and at least for me as a child, I didn't really process the words in songs, even though I love words :-) They were just sounds that enhanced the music like the guitar or the keyboards. I picked up some phrases but they were just words, not usually meaningful words. Now I listen to some songs that I listened to as a teen and think "Are they really saying what I think they're saying??" ;-) My sports nut husband probably listened a couple hundred times to Meatloaf's Paradise By the Dashboard Lights, about a guy getting to all the "bases" with his girlfriend, but it's done as a baseball play by play. And my husband thought the song was about baseball until he was in college ;-)-=-
When I was a kid, ten or eleven years old maybe, The Rolling Stones had a song with these horrible sinful lyrics:
Let's spend the night together
Now I need you more than ever
Let's spend the night together now
To me it was just nothing.
To my mom and other parents it brought up pictures of bodily fluids and something I couldn't imagine that was outside of marriage, or sin, or something. I didn't know what they were all ranting and wailing about, but they were. Adults on TV, adults on the radio were ranting and wailing and warning and shaming and going all kinds of crazy.
Other songs at the time about which adults wailed:
Good Golly Miss Molly
Louie, Louie
So of course, lots of kids played those songs slowly, and often, to see what was so nasty. What the parents pointed at as nasty sin was closely examined and focussed on. What parents ignored was not closely examined.
In the early 21st century, I was driving along with two of my kids and two from another family, and a cassette tape was playing in my car (yeah, I still had a cassette player for a while, in the 21st century), and "Under the Boardwalk" came on. The girl from the other family was maybe 11 years old; about as old as I was when my mom flipped out about Mick Jagger's as-usual unintelligible lyrics, because someone else told her to. The girl covered her little brother's ears, calmly and pointedly, and said her dad said they shouldn't listen to that song. So I turned it off.
Under the boardwalk
People walking above
Under the boardwalk
We'll be making love
None of those words are nasty.
I happened to know that their dad first saw and was attracted to their mom while she was singing "Turn back, oh man, forswear thy foolish ways" which is a suggestive, bawdy performance within the musical Godspell. I didn't mention the bump and grind that had spawned them. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When I was a kid, ten or eleven years old maybe, The Rolling Stones had a song with these horrible sinful lyrics:
Let's spend the night together
Now I need you more than ever
Let's spend the night together now
To me it was just nothing.
To my mom and other parents it brought up pictures of bodily fluids and something I couldn't imagine that was outside of marriage, or sin, or something. I didn't know what they were all ranting and wailing about, but they were. Adults on TV, adults on the radio were ranting and wailing and warning and shaming and going all kinds of crazy.
Other songs at the time about which adults wailed:
Good Golly Miss Molly
Louie, Louie
So of course, lots of kids played those songs slowly, and often, to see what was so nasty. What the parents pointed at as nasty sin was closely examined and focussed on. What parents ignored was not closely examined.
In the early 21st century, I was driving along with two of my kids and two from another family, and a cassette tape was playing in my car (yeah, I still had a cassette player for a while, in the 21st century), and "Under the Boardwalk" came on. The girl from the other family was maybe 11 years old; about as old as I was when my mom flipped out about Mick Jagger's as-usual unintelligible lyrics, because someone else told her to. The girl covered her little brother's ears, calmly and pointedly, and said her dad said they shouldn't listen to that song. So I turned it off.
Under the boardwalk
People walking above
Under the boardwalk
We'll be making love
None of those words are nasty.
I happened to know that their dad first saw and was attracted to their mom while she was singing "Turn back, oh man, forswear thy foolish ways" which is a suggestive, bawdy performance within the musical Godspell. I didn't mention the bump and grind that had spawned them. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Frantz Family
On 12/9/2011 8:57 PM, Amy wrote:
Families Discover Catholic Homeschooling by Suzie Andres. This was
published this year. The author also wrote Homeschooling with
Gentleness. I have not read that one. So there does seem to be other
Catholic unschoolers in the world. :-) I got this book through
interlibrary loan so you might be able to get them as well.
Margo
> I am a Catholic. I am coservative. And I believe in trying to preserve my children's innocense. This makes me wonder if I can truly unschool.I am about half way through A Little Way of Homeschooling:Thirteen
Families Discover Catholic Homeschooling by Suzie Andres. This was
published this year. The author also wrote Homeschooling with
Gentleness. I have not read that one. So there does seem to be other
Catholic unschoolers in the world. :-) I got this book through
interlibrary loan so you might be able to get them as well.
Margo
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am about half way through A Little Way of Homeschooling:Thirteen
Families Discover Catholic Homeschooling by Suzie Andres. This was
published this year. The author also wrote Homeschooling with
Gentleness. I have not read that one. So there does seem to be other
Catholic unschoolers in the world. :-) I got this book through
interlibrary loan so you might be able to get them as well.-=-
Here's an interview with the author:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/cw/post.php?id=582
Some of the families from that book are in this small group. Also some people who are religious but not Christian.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Religion_and_Unschooling/?yguid=247566989
Here's a list of resources for Christian unschoolers:
http://sandradodd.com/christian/resources.html
Here are some other pages on my site that deal with religion:
http://sandradodd.com/religion
http://sandradodd.com/people/kathyward/ (part of it is on fundamentalism)
http://sandradodd.com/christian/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Families Discover Catholic Homeschooling by Suzie Andres. This was
published this year. The author also wrote Homeschooling with
Gentleness. I have not read that one. So there does seem to be other
Catholic unschoolers in the world. :-) I got this book through
interlibrary loan so you might be able to get them as well.-=-
Here's an interview with the author:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/cw/post.php?id=582
Some of the families from that book are in this small group. Also some people who are religious but not Christian.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Religion_and_Unschooling/?yguid=247566989
Here's a list of resources for Christian unschoolers:
http://sandradodd.com/christian/resources.html
Here are some other pages on my site that deal with religion:
http://sandradodd.com/religion
http://sandradodd.com/people/kathyward/ (part of it is on fundamentalism)
http://sandradodd.com/christian/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Dec 9, 2011, at 10:57 PM, Amy wrote:
I didn't think they were old enough to cope with. For example, kids don't
understand statistics and they are egocentric. If they hear about how a
child was kidnapped and killed, they will be frightened that it might
happen to them, even if it was just one child out of millions and was far
away, even in another country.
I didn't protect my young kids from sweet and happy sexual stuff in movies
or on tv. I did protect them from violent sex or overly-graphic sex that
might disturb them. It was ALL about what I thought the kids could handle.
I tried to keep their lives happy and peaceful.
As young adults, my kids choose to protect themselves, too, from being
inundated with negativity. They will choose not to watch a movie about some
horrible historical event, for example. They don't mind knowing about the
event, but they see no reason to wallow in the horrific nature of something
they can do absolutely nothing about.
We went to what was then a temporary 9/11 memorial museum in NYC and made
it through the little video at the beginning and took about 5 steps down a
hallway with photographs of all the people killed in the attacks. Rosie and
I both just immediately backed out and went and waited for the rest of our
party out front. She was 16 so it wasn't that she wasn't "old enough" but
that that few seconds of exposure was enough for her. She doesn't want to
be ignorant - it isn't an ostrich burying its head in the sand thing. It is
a matter of how she wants to live her own life and knowing that making
herself feel horrified, dismal, and hopeless isn't going to change anything
EXCEPT her own outlook and experience of her own life.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>innocence, but overlaps. I also was big on not exposing them to things that
> > And I believe in trying to preserve my children's innocense.
>
> I was big on protecting their childhood, which isn't quite the same as
I didn't think they were old enough to cope with. For example, kids don't
understand statistics and they are egocentric. If they hear about how a
child was kidnapped and killed, they will be frightened that it might
happen to them, even if it was just one child out of millions and was far
away, even in another country.
I didn't protect my young kids from sweet and happy sexual stuff in movies
or on tv. I did protect them from violent sex or overly-graphic sex that
might disturb them. It was ALL about what I thought the kids could handle.
I tried to keep their lives happy and peaceful.
As young adults, my kids choose to protect themselves, too, from being
inundated with negativity. They will choose not to watch a movie about some
horrible historical event, for example. They don't mind knowing about the
event, but they see no reason to wallow in the horrific nature of something
they can do absolutely nothing about.
We went to what was then a temporary 9/11 memorial museum in NYC and made
it through the little video at the beginning and took about 5 steps down a
hallway with photographs of all the people killed in the attacks. Rosie and
I both just immediately backed out and went and waited for the rest of our
party out front. She was 16 so it wasn't that she wasn't "old enough" but
that that few seconds of exposure was enough for her. She doesn't want to
be ignorant - it isn't an ostrich burying its head in the sand thing. It is
a matter of how she wants to live her own life and knowing that making
herself feel horrified, dismal, and hopeless isn't going to change anything
EXCEPT her own outlook and experience of her own life.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
About that particular song - it was played SO constantly on the radio
stations we listened to in those days, that it is part of the soundtrack of
my memories of those years of my life. I was in high school and I wondered
and wondered about that song. I didn't know what "spend the night together
would entail, exactly." And I'd had boyfriends and we'd kissed and it
wasn't long AFTER that when I would have fully understood. But right then,
in 1967, I was 15 and confused about lots of stuff. AND I was aware that it
meant something and that everybody else seemed to know, but I didn't ask
anybody.
-pam
stations we listened to in those days, that it is part of the soundtrack of
my memories of those years of my life. I was in high school and I wondered
and wondered about that song. I didn't know what "spend the night together
would entail, exactly." And I'd had boyfriends and we'd kissed and it
wasn't long AFTER that when I would have fully understood. But right then,
in 1967, I was 15 and confused about lots of stuff. AND I was aware that it
meant something and that everybody else seemed to know, but I didn't ask
anybody.
-pam
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 8:49 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> When I was a kid, ten or eleven years old maybe, The Rolling Stones had a
> song with these horrible sinful lyrics:
>
> Let's spend the night together
> Now I need you more than ever
> Let's spend the night together now
>
> To me it was just nothing.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Veronica Deleon-sutter
As I have stumbled over this question myself with poor results, I have to say, this is how I preserve my 81/2 yr old daughter's innocence. When she's watched videos on youtube with teenagers acting awfully or watched tv and seen the same, she literally runs to me and cries that she doesn't want to be a teenager! I assure her she doesn't in any way have to be the way she sees them portrayed. I don't tell her it will be ok then, to act that way or it will be different when she is older... This same child has shown me that she DOES NOT want me censoring what videos she watches and that she will sneak to watch them if she has to. And not for the reasons I think, perhaps, but because they have the video game characters she loves. I would sit next to her and step in when I saw something I KNEW was innapropriate (people post real junk) I would say "oh, that's grown-up stuff" but that was way too much commentary for her, she really didn't care to know,
then I noticed she couldn't even tell it was an innapropriate image, she just wanted to watch her videos. So I before I did too much more damage to our communication/relationship I asked her to come to me if she ever had questions about something she saw. She said OK, but she may not, I may have messed it up already, like my mom did for me and her, when I was a kid.
________________________________
From: Frantz Family <frantzemail@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] So Confused!!!
then I noticed she couldn't even tell it was an innapropriate image, she just wanted to watch her videos. So I before I did too much more damage to our communication/relationship I asked her to come to me if she ever had questions about something she saw. She said OK, but she may not, I may have messed it up already, like my mom did for me and her, when I was a kid.
________________________________
From: Frantz Family <frantzemail@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] So Confused!!!
On 12/9/2011 8:57 PM, Amy wrote:
> I am a Catholic. I am coservative. And I believe in trying to preserve my children's innocense. This makes me wonder if I can truly unschool.
I am about half way through A Little Way of Homeschooling:Thirteen
Families Discover Catholic Homeschooling by Suzie Andres. This was
published this year. The author also wrote Homeschooling with
Gentleness. I have not read that one. So there does seem to be other
Catholic unschoolers in the world. :-) I got this book through
interlibrary loan so you might be able to get them as well.
Margo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laureen
Heya
On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Amy <amymodlin@...> wrote:
> I am new to the list and the more I try to understand unschooling the more
> confused I seem to become. I think I do not have a clear picture of what
> it really is. In the beginning, I thought it seemed permissive and ego
> centric.
>
It can sound that way.
>
>
> I am a Catholic. I am coservative. And I believe in trying to preserve
> my children's innocense.
That's a really interesting thing to explore. Would they bump into things
naturally in your life that would damage that innocence? Probably not,
right? So as a Catholic and a conservative, sharing with your children
those things that inspire, intrigue, and motivate them that also inspire,
intrigue, and motivate you, the likelihood that their innocence will remain
intact for longer than it would in conventional school is pretty huge.
> This makes me wonder if I can truly unschool. Since being on this group,
> I have seriously started to reevaluate some of my ideas on child rearing.
> However, there are things that I just do not see myself giving up my
> control over. Some examples are: 1. Going to church 2. Listening to music
> or watching programs with sexual content.
>
Is church interesting? Engaging? Motivational? The thing about unschooling
is that it's easy to motivate someone towards something that is inherently
amazing. And Catholicism can be amazing, even to a non-Catholic. I'm pretty
sure it'd be no trouble at all to make church be someplace so fascinating
that they'd want to go there. If you are joyful and excited about church,
that will show, and if you and your kids are connected, they'll want to
share that joy and excitement with you.
The "sexual content" question is much more complicated, and that's
something you want to explore in your own head. What is it you're trying to
do? If you're trying to ensure that you don't have to answer any
uncomfortable questions... then your kids will get their information
somewhere (you cannot crush out interest in sex in the human species. It's
impossible.). So you might want to think about that.
>
> My daughter is 10 and loves being a child. She is in no rush to grow up.
> She loves playing with her dolls and barbies still. She has asked for an
> american girl doll for Christmas. I have the impression and I might be
> wrong, but I feel like most unschooled children probably know a lot more
> about "life" than she does.
>
Is knowing about sex a bad thing? (if you're using "life" as a euphemism
for "sex" there, you might want to ask yourself why that is... euphemisms
muddy your thought, and prevent you from really facing what you're doing).
I mean... knowledge about sex covers a continuum, from porn to immaculate
conception. Do I want my kids knowing about porn? Of course not. Do I want
them to understand normal, biological hormone surges and what those will
feel like, so they can tell me, so we can address reality directly and
comfortably, in a very connected, supportive way? Absolutely.
In movies, often, there's kissing. Say, "Princess Bride" for example. Is
that sexual content? Kind of. My husband and I started a tradition when the
kids were babies, of yelling "kissing!" and hugging and kissing everyone
around us. It's a celebration. Physical human affection! Hurrah!!! It
emphasizes that kissing can be a lovely thing, while ignoring the whole
"sex" thing.
Do my husband and I kiss in front of them? Sure. Do they know anything
beyond that's what happily married in-love people often do? Nope. Age and
context-appropriate information.
Is it a failure of innocence for my kids to see their parents kissing? I
don't think so, but I might be different than you. You need to assess your
own thoughts there, figure out what kind of message you're working with,
and go from there. And the beauty of unschooling is that you can.
> So I wonder if this unschooling lifestyle is not suited for me and I
> should just be eclectic.
>
Might want to focus less on labels, and more on relationships. Because
that's really what unschooling is (at least for us)... it's putting
information and information-gathering activities within the context of
solid relationships.
--
~~L!
s/v Excellent Adventure
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
"The greatest expression of rebellion is *joy*."
— Joss Whedon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
I'm a Christian and have wrestled with the same dilemmas that you're facing. I don't have it all figured out yet because there's a lot of info to sift through, but you might want to check out gentlechristianmothers.com. They have a forum with a sub-forum for unschoolers. I think it would give you some peace to see how other Christians UNschool. Just a thought. Take care.
--- In [email protected], "Amy" <amymodlin@...> wrote:
>
> I am new to the list and the more I try to understand unschooling the more confused I seem to become. I think I do not have a clear picture of what it really is. In the beginning, I thought it seemed permissive and ego centric.
>
> I only know of one family in my community that "unschools." By her own admission she says that most unschoolers would not even consider her to be an unschooler. She does not use a curriculum, but considers her style to be more of a montessori method. So this is what I thought unschooling meant- no curriculum... And then I stumbled on to AlwaysLearning.
>
> I am a Catholic. I am coservative. And I believe in trying to preserve my children's innocense. This makes me wonder if I can truly unschool. Since being on this group, I have seriously started to reevaluate some of my ideas on child rearing. However, there are things that I just do not see myself giving up my control over. Some examples are: 1. Going to church 2. Listening to music or watching programs with sexual content.
>
> My daughter is 10 and loves being a child. She is in no rush to grow up. She loves playing with her dolls and barbies still. She has asked for an american girl doll for Christmas. I have the impression and I might be wrong, but I feel like most unschooled children probably know a lot more about "life" than she does.
>
> So I wonder if this unschooling lifestyle is not suited for me and I should just be eclectic.
>
> I hope that I have posted correctly. I read all of the info on posting to the list. My thoughts are heartfelt and do not intend to spark debates.
>
Jenny Cyphers
***I would sit next to her and step in when I saw something I KNEW was innapropriate (people post real junk) I would say "oh, that's grown-up stuff" but that was way too much commentary for her, she really didn't care to know,
then I noticed she couldn't even tell it was an innapropriate image, she just wanted to watch her videos. So I before I did too much more damage to our communication/relationship I asked her to come to me if she ever had questions about something she saw. She said OK, but she may not, I may have messed it up already, like my mom did for me and her, when I was a kid.***
When Margaux was little, The Lord of the Rings came out. She wanted to watch it, but Gollum scared her. At the time, we had the couch set up so that there were toys and such behind it. I remember sitting back there with her while she would pop her head above the couch to watch and pop back down to play with toys, when it was too much. I still haven't watched those movies straight through.
Margaux has a sister that is 7 1/2 yrs older than she is. There was simply no way to shelter Margaux from more mature conversations. Her older sister lived a much more sheltered life! She watched age appropriate movies and tv shows, read lots of kid books, did lots of kid things. Margaux is 10 and surrounded by older teens and older teen conversation and doings. I can't change that even if I tried! Her preference is kids her own age doing 10 yr old things and we set aside time to do that, but she settles for what is there, which is often hanging out with the teenagers, going along with their jokes, watching videos and movies with them and listening to their conversations.
If kids know without a doubt that they can come to their parents with questions, even embarrassing questions, without shame or judgement, they will do so. Some kids are more private than others and may not ask about everything and that's okay because eventually they will come to a better understanding. Margaux really likes the show How I Met Your Mother. It's all about sex and relationships and most of it goes right over her head! She likes the characters and the story lines and the comedic situations. One day she'll connect the dots and see the show in a different way! For now she views it in her own 10 yr old way, with her 10 yr old understanding of the world.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
then I noticed she couldn't even tell it was an innapropriate image, she just wanted to watch her videos. So I before I did too much more damage to our communication/relationship I asked her to come to me if she ever had questions about something she saw. She said OK, but she may not, I may have messed it up already, like my mom did for me and her, when I was a kid.***
When Margaux was little, The Lord of the Rings came out. She wanted to watch it, but Gollum scared her. At the time, we had the couch set up so that there were toys and such behind it. I remember sitting back there with her while she would pop her head above the couch to watch and pop back down to play with toys, when it was too much. I still haven't watched those movies straight through.
Margaux has a sister that is 7 1/2 yrs older than she is. There was simply no way to shelter Margaux from more mature conversations. Her older sister lived a much more sheltered life! She watched age appropriate movies and tv shows, read lots of kid books, did lots of kid things. Margaux is 10 and surrounded by older teens and older teen conversation and doings. I can't change that even if I tried! Her preference is kids her own age doing 10 yr old things and we set aside time to do that, but she settles for what is there, which is often hanging out with the teenagers, going along with their jokes, watching videos and movies with them and listening to their conversations.
If kids know without a doubt that they can come to their parents with questions, even embarrassing questions, without shame or judgement, they will do so. Some kids are more private than others and may not ask about everything and that's okay because eventually they will come to a better understanding. Margaux really likes the show How I Met Your Mother. It's all about sex and relationships and most of it goes right over her head! She likes the characters and the story lines and the comedic situations. One day she'll connect the dots and see the show in a different way! For now she views it in her own 10 yr old way, with her 10 yr old understanding of the world.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]