Vegetarian and unschooling
kgagnier0424
I have a 3 and 1/2 year old daughter who seems to be ok with not eating meat at the moment so I'm looking for advice (preferably from other vegetarian parents) on what to do when the subject of meat does comes up.
There was a small situation at a halloween party, where I looked down to see she had a hot dog on her plate. It was a miss assumption from my friend who thought I fed her meat. At that time I took the hot dog off her plate and she was upset for a little bit. I think it was the act of taking it away more than the fact that I didn't want her to eat meat that upset her. Of all the meats Hot dogs are the last thing I would want to feed her. She wanted to have a hot dog several months earlier (thanks to Mickey Mouse's Hot dog song) so I substituted it with a tofu dog. Turns out she didn't like it, so I thought good that need has been resolved. However, I would imagine it's a temporary resolution, until the curiosity comes back.
I am ok with people eating meat. My issue is corporate farming and the way animals are pumped with by products such as hormones and antibiotics etc. As well as abused and severely neglected.
After my daughter was born, I always thought that I would not allow her to eat meat until she understood the process behind it. It's not my intention to slam her with you're killing an innocent animal, shame on you kind of explanation. I want her to know where her food is coming from (which I already promote by taking her to local farms). I know an easy answer would be to feed her organic free range meat, but it's not that easily available where I am and it's more expensive AND free range doesn't necessarily mean the live stock are living in a good environment. Furthermore, where she will ask for meat is where it is served. How do you prepare for that?
I'm looking for advice from other vegetarian parents raising their children with the unschooling philosophy. What worked in a positive way for you? What should be avoided? And do you find it appropriate (if the topic comes up) to share with a child the truth behind corporate farming?
There was a small situation at a halloween party, where I looked down to see she had a hot dog on her plate. It was a miss assumption from my friend who thought I fed her meat. At that time I took the hot dog off her plate and she was upset for a little bit. I think it was the act of taking it away more than the fact that I didn't want her to eat meat that upset her. Of all the meats Hot dogs are the last thing I would want to feed her. She wanted to have a hot dog several months earlier (thanks to Mickey Mouse's Hot dog song) so I substituted it with a tofu dog. Turns out she didn't like it, so I thought good that need has been resolved. However, I would imagine it's a temporary resolution, until the curiosity comes back.
I am ok with people eating meat. My issue is corporate farming and the way animals are pumped with by products such as hormones and antibiotics etc. As well as abused and severely neglected.
After my daughter was born, I always thought that I would not allow her to eat meat until she understood the process behind it. It's not my intention to slam her with you're killing an innocent animal, shame on you kind of explanation. I want her to know where her food is coming from (which I already promote by taking her to local farms). I know an easy answer would be to feed her organic free range meat, but it's not that easily available where I am and it's more expensive AND free range doesn't necessarily mean the live stock are living in a good environment. Furthermore, where she will ask for meat is where it is served. How do you prepare for that?
I'm looking for advice from other vegetarian parents raising their children with the unschooling philosophy. What worked in a positive way for you? What should be avoided? And do you find it appropriate (if the topic comes up) to share with a child the truth behind corporate farming?
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 9, 2011, at 11:24 AM, kgagnier0424 wrote:
If you take meat from her, if you deny her the opportunity to explore, what you're saying with your actions is that your vegetarian values are more important than your daughter's curiosity and innate desire to explore to discover her own likes and dislikes.
That may be true for you. But it's not a message a 3 yo or 6 yo or 8 yo who is fully dependent on you to meet their wants and needs will hear with the understanding you have. A young child can't explore the world without your help. You brought her into the world. You've chosen unschooling where a big part of the philosophy is trusting children to explore and decide what is good and bad for themselves.
But you want to decide for her. You want to stack the information deck in favor of your point of view. If what you believe is right and true, don't you think she'll decide that for herself if she's given the opportunity? Why do you think she'd reject it? And if she would, why would you want to create propaganda to get her to think the way you want her to?
It's perfectly possible to live our values for ourselves while supporting kids in exploring what they believe to be good and bad for themselves. If you impose the value on her, you're likely to tie negativity from the control to the value.
It's easy to feel the mind-controlishness of fundamentalists, skin heads, parents who put high pressure on academics or sports, parents who groom their children for beauty pageants -- any values we disagree with -- for raising their kids in a bubble of what is the right way to think, not letting the kids decide for themselves. It's not so easy to see the same type of thought when its our own beliefs that we're sure are the right way to believe that we want our kids to understand.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am ok with people eating meat. My issue is corporate farming and the way animals are pumped with by products such as hormones and antibiotics etc. As well as abused and severely neglected.But you're not okay with your daughter eating meat. Perhaps she's not people?
If you take meat from her, if you deny her the opportunity to explore, what you're saying with your actions is that your vegetarian values are more important than your daughter's curiosity and innate desire to explore to discover her own likes and dislikes.
> I want her to know where her food is coming from (which I already promote by taking her to local farms).What does she want to know?
> I know an easy answer would be to feed her organic free range meat, but it's not that easily available where I am and it's more expensive AND free range doesn't necessarily mean the live stock are living in a good environment. Furthermore, where she will ask for meat is where it is served. How do you prepare for that?If you won't buy her regular meat when she shows curiosity, you're saying the lives of the animals are more important than helping her decide for herself.
That may be true for you. But it's not a message a 3 yo or 6 yo or 8 yo who is fully dependent on you to meet their wants and needs will hear with the understanding you have. A young child can't explore the world without your help. You brought her into the world. You've chosen unschooling where a big part of the philosophy is trusting children to explore and decide what is good and bad for themselves.
But you want to decide for her. You want to stack the information deck in favor of your point of view. If what you believe is right and true, don't you think she'll decide that for herself if she's given the opportunity? Why do you think she'd reject it? And if she would, why would you want to create propaganda to get her to think the way you want her to?
It's perfectly possible to live our values for ourselves while supporting kids in exploring what they believe to be good and bad for themselves. If you impose the value on her, you're likely to tie negativity from the control to the value.
It's easy to feel the mind-controlishness of fundamentalists, skin heads, parents who put high pressure on academics or sports, parents who groom their children for beauty pageants -- any values we disagree with -- for raising their kids in a bubble of what is the right way to think, not letting the kids decide for themselves. It's not so easy to see the same type of thought when its our own beliefs that we're sure are the right way to believe that we want our kids to understand.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Colleen
***** I'm looking for advice from other vegetarian parents raising their children with the unschooling philosophy. What worked in a positive way for you? What should be avoided? And do you find it appropriate (if the topic comes up) to share with a child the truth behind corporate farming?*****
My son is 8, and he is a vegetarian by his own choice (well, technically a pescetarian as he chooses to eat shrimp and calamari :-)). My husband and I are not vegetarians, but we do buy 100% of the meat and eggs we eat from local farms where we know the farmers and have personally seen how they raise their animals. We are fortunate to have a strong local food network around where we live - and also to have the time to go to the farms to get our food instead of to the grocery store :-)
My son ate the meat we bought up until he was two, at which point he announced that he didn't want to eat animals any more. He also (before giving up meat) ate McDonald's hamburgers and chicken nuggets once in a while, and always by his own request. Even though neither my husband nor I choose at this time to eat McDonald's meat, we didn't deny him the opportunity to do so - because he was curious and interested and that food looks good to little kids! So denying him McDonald's because I don't like where their meat comes from didn't seem a joyful choice. Filling his head with factory farming realities also didn't seem a joyful choice - when he asked "why don't you eat a hamburger too?" I would answer "I'd rather eat hamburger from a farm I know." He would smile and happily munch his meal.
As he got older, he asked more questions about meat, and about why we buy our meat from farms when most people buy it from grocery stores. I kept answers simple, and still do - he knows that typical hen houses are over-crowded, for example - and he knows that grocery store meat animals don't get to go outside and run around and enjoy their lives like the animals do on the farms he loves to visit with us when we pick up meat. He doesn't know about the sort of things you see in hidden-camera You Tube animal activist videos, and I hope he won't for some time to come, as that's a lot for adults to take in never mind kids :-)
Anyway, I recently asked him if it bothers him that his dad and I eat meat. He said quite happily, "Why would it? I'm not you!"
I think that's good to consider when someone thinks about how much influence they want over someone else's choices. We're not our kids - and our kids aren't us. I have something of the opposite situation of what you're experiencing, in that I'm not the vegetarian in the house - but I still think there are parallels, and I also wanted to share because I think our situation illustrates the idea that keeps coming up here and there in unschooling discussions - that when we parent with attachment to outcomes, we don't always get what we expect anyway :-) I provide the organic (usually), non-factory-farmed (always) meat you mention wanting your daughter to eat - but my son chooses not to eat it. And from my unschooling point of view that choice is his to make, just like if he suddenly wanted to stop at Burger King for a Whopper this afternoon I'd be ok with that too after all, I'm not him, so I wouldn't be the one eating it :-)
My son is 8, and he is a vegetarian by his own choice (well, technically a pescetarian as he chooses to eat shrimp and calamari :-)). My husband and I are not vegetarians, but we do buy 100% of the meat and eggs we eat from local farms where we know the farmers and have personally seen how they raise their animals. We are fortunate to have a strong local food network around where we live - and also to have the time to go to the farms to get our food instead of to the grocery store :-)
My son ate the meat we bought up until he was two, at which point he announced that he didn't want to eat animals any more. He also (before giving up meat) ate McDonald's hamburgers and chicken nuggets once in a while, and always by his own request. Even though neither my husband nor I choose at this time to eat McDonald's meat, we didn't deny him the opportunity to do so - because he was curious and interested and that food looks good to little kids! So denying him McDonald's because I don't like where their meat comes from didn't seem a joyful choice. Filling his head with factory farming realities also didn't seem a joyful choice - when he asked "why don't you eat a hamburger too?" I would answer "I'd rather eat hamburger from a farm I know." He would smile and happily munch his meal.
As he got older, he asked more questions about meat, and about why we buy our meat from farms when most people buy it from grocery stores. I kept answers simple, and still do - he knows that typical hen houses are over-crowded, for example - and he knows that grocery store meat animals don't get to go outside and run around and enjoy their lives like the animals do on the farms he loves to visit with us when we pick up meat. He doesn't know about the sort of things you see in hidden-camera You Tube animal activist videos, and I hope he won't for some time to come, as that's a lot for adults to take in never mind kids :-)
Anyway, I recently asked him if it bothers him that his dad and I eat meat. He said quite happily, "Why would it? I'm not you!"
I think that's good to consider when someone thinks about how much influence they want over someone else's choices. We're not our kids - and our kids aren't us. I have something of the opposite situation of what you're experiencing, in that I'm not the vegetarian in the house - but I still think there are parallels, and I also wanted to share because I think our situation illustrates the idea that keeps coming up here and there in unschooling discussions - that when we parent with attachment to outcomes, we don't always get what we expect anyway :-) I provide the organic (usually), non-factory-farmed (always) meat you mention wanting your daughter to eat - but my son chooses not to eat it. And from my unschooling point of view that choice is his to make, just like if he suddenly wanted to stop at Burger King for a Whopper this afternoon I'd be ok with that too after all, I'm not him, so I wouldn't be the one eating it :-)
Tova
And so people should know where their food (especially meat) is coming from, good for you for preparing to educate your daughter on that.
We are a vegetarian family. I grew up vegetarian because my family was. My mom never pushed it on me, judged me, or made me feel that she would be disappointed if I ate meat. I never did eat meat, and I am still a happy vegetarian today, probably because it felt like a choice I made myself and wasn't forced on me.
With my own daughter it was always the same, I felt whatever direction she went I would want to support her 100% (or try my hardest) because I care about her. The thing is she took vegetarian on as her own, and has never wanted to eat meat so far (now 11). I am a proponent of speaking the truth when it comes to meat. It can be an age appropriate version, but I think that people should always know the three basics things: that meat is an animals body, that the animal was enslaved by people for it's whole life and usually denied basic needs, and that it suffered. And I think there should be reminders of that every day because it is all too easy to forget others' suffering when it isn't in our face. If someone chooses to meat after that, then at least it is an educated choice. Even if a 3 year old has made the choice to taste meat, if you keep up nonjudgmental dialogue about meat, she will probably choose to be vegetarian sooner or later.
The goal is to have someone take it on as their own passion and love and who they are. But that can sometimes be tricky. You don't want them to be passionless about it as if they're just doing it to please you or whoever. You want them to be proud to be a vegetarian because it is a choice they made.
Some good ideas are for your daughter to make vegetarian friends, watch artistic Youtube videos by vegetarians (there's a lot of cute songs), get vegetarian books (victor the vegetarian etc.), vegetarian potlucks and other vegetarian outings, vegetarian magazines... Do you have a support group in your area?
Another good idea is to bring vegetarian alternatives like smart dogs, veggie burgers etc. to every gathering you go to where you daughter might feel left out or tempted.
I wish you good luck,
Tova
We are a vegetarian family. I grew up vegetarian because my family was. My mom never pushed it on me, judged me, or made me feel that she would be disappointed if I ate meat. I never did eat meat, and I am still a happy vegetarian today, probably because it felt like a choice I made myself and wasn't forced on me.
With my own daughter it was always the same, I felt whatever direction she went I would want to support her 100% (or try my hardest) because I care about her. The thing is she took vegetarian on as her own, and has never wanted to eat meat so far (now 11). I am a proponent of speaking the truth when it comes to meat. It can be an age appropriate version, but I think that people should always know the three basics things: that meat is an animals body, that the animal was enslaved by people for it's whole life and usually denied basic needs, and that it suffered. And I think there should be reminders of that every day because it is all too easy to forget others' suffering when it isn't in our face. If someone chooses to meat after that, then at least it is an educated choice. Even if a 3 year old has made the choice to taste meat, if you keep up nonjudgmental dialogue about meat, she will probably choose to be vegetarian sooner or later.
The goal is to have someone take it on as their own passion and love and who they are. But that can sometimes be tricky. You don't want them to be passionless about it as if they're just doing it to please you or whoever. You want them to be proud to be a vegetarian because it is a choice they made.
Some good ideas are for your daughter to make vegetarian friends, watch artistic Youtube videos by vegetarians (there's a lot of cute songs), get vegetarian books (victor the vegetarian etc.), vegetarian potlucks and other vegetarian outings, vegetarian magazines... Do you have a support group in your area?
Another good idea is to bring vegetarian alternatives like smart dogs, veggie burgers etc. to every gathering you go to where you daughter might feel left out or tempted.
I wish you good luck,
Tova
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, kgagnier0424 <kgagnier0424@...> wrote:
From: kgagnier0424 <kgagnier0424@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Vegetarian and unschooling
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, December 9, 2011, 11:24 AM
I have a 3 and 1/2 year old daughter who seems to be ok with not eating meat at the moment so I'm looking for advice (preferably from other vegetarian parents) on what to do when the subject of meat does comes up.
There was a small situation at a halloween party, where I looked down to see she had a hot dog on her plate. It was a miss assumption from my friend who thought I fed her meat. At that time I took the hot dog off her plate and she was upset for a little bit. I think it was the act of taking it away more than the fact that I didn't want her to eat meat that upset her. Of all the meats Hot dogs are the last thing I would want to feed her. She wanted to have a hot dog several months earlier (thanks to Mickey Mouse's Hot dog song) so I substituted it with a tofu dog. Turns out she didn't like it, so I thought good that need has been resolved. However, I would imagine it's a temporary resolution, until the curiosity comes back.
I am ok with people eating meat. My issue is corporate farming and the way animals are pumped with by products such as hormones and antibiotics etc. As well as abused and severely neglected.
After my daughter was born, I always thought that I would not allow her to eat meat until she understood the process behind it. It's not my intention to slam her with you're killing an innocent animal, shame on you kind of explanation. I want her to know where her food is coming from (which I already promote by taking her to local farms). I know an easy answer would be to feed her organic free range meat, but it's not that easily available where I am and it's more expensive AND free range doesn't necessarily mean the live stock are living in a good environment. Furthermore, where she will ask for meat is where it is served. How do you prepare for that?
I'm looking for advice from other vegetarian parents raising their children with the unschooling philosophy. What worked in a positive way for you? What should be avoided? And do you find it appropriate (if the topic comes up) to share with a child the truth behind corporate farming?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"kgagnier0424" <kgagnier0424@...> wrote:
Trying one, though, one hot dog, isn't going to have any kind of significant health effect. The Worst that could happen is that she'd like it - and then you could buy tofu pups for home and its still only one hot dog. And if she's already tried a tofu pup and didn't like it, chances are she'd take a bite or two and the experiment would be over without a fuss. Now she's still curious.
Accept that its natural for kids to experiment, and a little experimentation isn't the same as wanting to live on McD's cheeseburgers ;) Don't blow "I want to try" up into a huge issue - that only makes eating meat more interesting. If she tries something and likes it, you can look for alternatives you feel good about to have around the house and integrate into your cooking.
I'm a vegetarian. My daughter discovered chicken nuggets on a play date with a friend, so I made a variety of chicken nugget variations at home - with chicken I felt okay about, from a local farm, or with chick peas. That was fun for awhile. But once the newness faded she lost interest so I stopped making them. Now and again, if we're out, I'll get her some chicken nuggets because that's about the only fast food she'll eat. I don't think a couple dozen nuggets over the course of a year (if that) are going to wreck her health.
We've talked about corporate farming driving past chicken farms and pig farms - the stench provides a whole conversation instantly: what's that stink? Oh, that's a big commercial farm - gross, eh? You don't have to go on from that and turn it into some kind of lesson, though. Topics rise and fall, ideas swirl around in life. It can be hard to see how that works when your kid is still a toddler, but you have Years to talk about this in little bits and pieces. You don't have to dump the whole picture on a kid who asks "what's that smell?" or "what's pork?" Give short answers without any drama and wait and see if there's a follow-up question.
Kids often go through a "what's it made of?" stage and/or a "where does it come from?" stage, which are good times to have those kinds of conversations. Tv programs and movies also provide lots of opportunities to talk about all sorts of things. Going to the grocery store, too - I'm going to go to this specialty butcher because I found out they buy from places that treat their animals better. And hanging around with other people provides plenty of chances to talk about different foods the same way you might talk about accents or customs, house rules or quirks of personality.
Keep in mind that learning happens by means of lots of little connections. It doesn't help to make lots of connections to "mom is mean/ scary/ unreasonable about this subject"!
---Meredith
>At that time I took the hot dog off her plate and she was upset for a little bit. I think it was the act of taking it away more than the fact that I didn't want her to eat meat that upset her. Of all the meats Hot dogs are the last thing I would want to feed her.*****************
Trying one, though, one hot dog, isn't going to have any kind of significant health effect. The Worst that could happen is that she'd like it - and then you could buy tofu pups for home and its still only one hot dog. And if she's already tried a tofu pup and didn't like it, chances are she'd take a bite or two and the experiment would be over without a fuss. Now she's still curious.
>>Furthermore, where she will ask for meat is where it is served. How do you prepare for that?*************
Accept that its natural for kids to experiment, and a little experimentation isn't the same as wanting to live on McD's cheeseburgers ;) Don't blow "I want to try" up into a huge issue - that only makes eating meat more interesting. If she tries something and likes it, you can look for alternatives you feel good about to have around the house and integrate into your cooking.
I'm a vegetarian. My daughter discovered chicken nuggets on a play date with a friend, so I made a variety of chicken nugget variations at home - with chicken I felt okay about, from a local farm, or with chick peas. That was fun for awhile. But once the newness faded she lost interest so I stopped making them. Now and again, if we're out, I'll get her some chicken nuggets because that's about the only fast food she'll eat. I don't think a couple dozen nuggets over the course of a year (if that) are going to wreck her health.
>> And do you find it appropriate (if the topic comes up) to share with a child the truth behind corporate farming?****************
We've talked about corporate farming driving past chicken farms and pig farms - the stench provides a whole conversation instantly: what's that stink? Oh, that's a big commercial farm - gross, eh? You don't have to go on from that and turn it into some kind of lesson, though. Topics rise and fall, ideas swirl around in life. It can be hard to see how that works when your kid is still a toddler, but you have Years to talk about this in little bits and pieces. You don't have to dump the whole picture on a kid who asks "what's that smell?" or "what's pork?" Give short answers without any drama and wait and see if there's a follow-up question.
Kids often go through a "what's it made of?" stage and/or a "where does it come from?" stage, which are good times to have those kinds of conversations. Tv programs and movies also provide lots of opportunities to talk about all sorts of things. Going to the grocery store, too - I'm going to go to this specialty butcher because I found out they buy from places that treat their animals better. And hanging around with other people provides plenty of chances to talk about different foods the same way you might talk about accents or customs, house rules or quirks of personality.
Keep in mind that learning happens by means of lots of little connections. It doesn't help to make lots of connections to "mom is mean/ scary/ unreasonable about this subject"!
---Meredith
Meredith
Tova <ml_ja@...> wrote:
Kids don't need daily reminders that life has a down side. It's not easy being a child - the world is too big, too complex, too frustrating; they know life isn't all sunshine and fair play. What they do, very very often, need is to have their sense of wonder and joy in life supported and cherished.
There are very few reminders in my home that meat comes from animals - the odd cartoon where a bird is hit by lightning and turns into a turkey dinner comes to mind - but my 10yo is still a vegetarian. Right now. There's no guarantee that she'll still be one in a year, or ten years, or twenty. Especially not twenty or more - I've watched many friends change diets as they get older and their bodies changed. Some became vegetarian, some went the other way, finding they did better with meat in their diets. It's not some kind of once and for all decision.
Actually, it could well be a reactive choice - a choice to put one in mom's eye or rebel against food controls hidden under words like "We are a vegetarian Family". I've seen that in "vegetarian families". I've also seen "vegetarian families" where the kids binge on animal products outside their parents sight, to the point where friends stock up on milk or bologna when they know those kids are coming to visit.
You can't give or teach your passions to someone else. If you have a kid who naturally shares some of your passions, that's harder to see - what you're doing seems to be "working" in that sense. When you have multiple kids, some of whom share your interests and passions and some of whom don't, it's a bit more obvious. When your personal values are something your kids see and feel on a regular basis as sources of joy and comfort To Them, they do come to share those values but How that plays out in real life can be very different from one person to another. Passions are something else entirely - something that's a mild interest for me might be a passion in one of my kids, or something they find dull and uninteresting, no matter how big a deal I make of it.
That's the sort of thing which is a good idea if your child has allergies or serious food sensitivities, but doesn't work so well for something like vegetarianism because kids are natural explorers. They Want to Try things. It's not a terrible thing to let them explore. It's one of the most important ways they learn about the world.
---Meredith
> good for you for preparing to educate your daughter on that.It's not necessary to "educate" a child for them to come to value a parent's principles - and all the "education" in the world won't guarantee a child will do so.
>>I think there should be reminders of that every day because it is all too easy to forget others' suffering when it isn't in our face***************
Kids don't need daily reminders that life has a down side. It's not easy being a child - the world is too big, too complex, too frustrating; they know life isn't all sunshine and fair play. What they do, very very often, need is to have their sense of wonder and joy in life supported and cherished.
There are very few reminders in my home that meat comes from animals - the odd cartoon where a bird is hit by lightning and turns into a turkey dinner comes to mind - but my 10yo is still a vegetarian. Right now. There's no guarantee that she'll still be one in a year, or ten years, or twenty. Especially not twenty or more - I've watched many friends change diets as they get older and their bodies changed. Some became vegetarian, some went the other way, finding they did better with meat in their diets. It's not some kind of once and for all decision.
>>If someone chooses to meat after that, then at least it is an educated choice.****************
Actually, it could well be a reactive choice - a choice to put one in mom's eye or rebel against food controls hidden under words like "We are a vegetarian Family". I've seen that in "vegetarian families". I've also seen "vegetarian families" where the kids binge on animal products outside their parents sight, to the point where friends stock up on milk or bologna when they know those kids are coming to visit.
> The goal is to have someone take it on as their own passion and love and who they are.****************
You can't give or teach your passions to someone else. If you have a kid who naturally shares some of your passions, that's harder to see - what you're doing seems to be "working" in that sense. When you have multiple kids, some of whom share your interests and passions and some of whom don't, it's a bit more obvious. When your personal values are something your kids see and feel on a regular basis as sources of joy and comfort To Them, they do come to share those values but How that plays out in real life can be very different from one person to another. Passions are something else entirely - something that's a mild interest for me might be a passion in one of my kids, or something they find dull and uninteresting, no matter how big a deal I make of it.
> Another good idea is to bring vegetarian alternatives like smart dogs, veggie burgers etc. to every gathering you go to where you daughter might feel left out or tempted.**************
That's the sort of thing which is a good idea if your child has allergies or serious food sensitivities, but doesn't work so well for something like vegetarianism because kids are natural explorers. They Want to Try things. It's not a terrible thing to let them explore. It's one of the most important ways they learn about the world.
---Meredith
Tova
Meredith wrote >>>It's not necessary to "educate" a child for them to come to value a
parent's principles - and all the "education" in the world won't
guarantee a child will do so.>>>
I'm not only talking about a parents values. There are many kids who do not know that meat is an animals body.
they know life isn't all sunshine and fair play. What they do, very very
often, need is to have their sense of wonder and joy in life supported
and cherished. >>>
Why not daily reminders? There are daily reminders that factory farmed meat is okay to eat everywhere one turns, so why not daily counter reminders that animals are hurt in these farms and that our choices can change that? Daily reminders can be everything from a photo on the fridge, a daily prayer for the animals, volunteering at a sanctuary, conversation, an animal dairy, books, videos... . It is not so much a daily reminder that there is evil in the world, but it is a daily reminder that you can make the world a better place with your actions; that you can help others by the choices you make! How empowering is that?
dinner comes to mind - but my 10yo is still a vegetarian. Right now.
There's no guarantee that she'll still be one in a year, or ten years,
or twenty. Especially not twenty or more - I've watched many friends
change diets as they get older and their bodies changed. Some became
vegetarian, some went the other way, finding they did better with meat
in their diets. It's not some kind of once and for all decision.>>>
It is because we are hidden from truths that it easy to not care.
something like vegetarianism because kids are natural explorers. They
Want to Try things. It's not a terrible thing to let them explore. It's
one of the most important ways they learn about the world. >>>
Natural explorers? Though I agree with you, I'm not so sure that they are natural explorers when it comes to food. I've seen most kids stick their noses up to foods such as vegetables. Furthermore, most would never touch faux meats because it is foreign to them and weird.
I think it's a great idea for the poster to bring veggie alternatives. She could even have her daughter pick out the faux meat so she can explore all the wonderful options out there which there are many.
parent's principles - and all the "education" in the world won't
guarantee a child will do so.>>>
I'm not only talking about a parents values. There are many kids who do not know that meat is an animals body.
>>>Kids don't need daily reminders that life has a down side. It's not easybeing a child - the world is too big, too complex, too frustrating;
they know life isn't all sunshine and fair play. What they do, very very
often, need is to have their sense of wonder and joy in life supported
and cherished. >>>
Why not daily reminders? There are daily reminders that factory farmed meat is okay to eat everywhere one turns, so why not daily counter reminders that animals are hurt in these farms and that our choices can change that? Daily reminders can be everything from a photo on the fridge, a daily prayer for the animals, volunteering at a sanctuary, conversation, an animal dairy, books, videos... . It is not so much a daily reminder that there is evil in the world, but it is a daily reminder that you can make the world a better place with your actions; that you can help others by the choices you make! How empowering is that?
>>>There are very few reminders in my home that meat comes from animals -the odd cartoon where a bird is hit by lightning and turns into a turkey
dinner comes to mind - but my 10yo is still a vegetarian. Right now.
There's no guarantee that she'll still be one in a year, or ten years,
or twenty. Especially not twenty or more - I've watched many friends
change diets as they get older and their bodies changed. Some became
vegetarian, some went the other way, finding they did better with meat
in their diets. It's not some kind of once and for all decision.>>>
It is because we are hidden from truths that it easy to not care.
>>>That's the sort of thing which is a good idea if your child hasallergies or serious food sensitivities, but doesn't work so well for
something like vegetarianism because kids are natural explorers. They
Want to Try things. It's not a terrible thing to let them explore. It's
one of the most important ways they learn about the world. >>>
Natural explorers? Though I agree with you, I'm not so sure that they are natural explorers when it comes to food. I've seen most kids stick their noses up to foods such as vegetables. Furthermore, most would never touch faux meats because it is foreign to them and weird.
I think it's a great idea for the poster to bring veggie alternatives. She could even have her daughter pick out the faux meat so she can explore all the wonderful options out there which there are many.
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
From: Meredith <plaidpanties666@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Vegetarian and unschooling
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, December 9, 2011, 6:18 PM
Tova <ml_ja@...> wrote:
> good for you for preparing to educate your daughter on that.
It's not necessary to "educate" a child for them to come to value a parent's principles - and all the "education" in the world won't guarantee a child will do so.
>>I think there should be reminders of that every day because it is all too easy to forget others' suffering when it isn't in our face
***************
Kids don't need daily reminders that life has a down side. It's not easy being a child - the world is too big, too complex, too frustrating; they know life isn't all sunshine and fair play. What they do, very very often, need is to have their sense of wonder and joy in life supported and cherished.
There are very few reminders in my home that meat comes from animals - the odd cartoon where a bird is hit by lightning and turns into a turkey dinner comes to mind - but my 10yo is still a vegetarian. Right now. There's no guarantee that she'll still be one in a year, or ten years, or twenty. Especially not twenty or more - I've watched many friends change diets as they get older and their bodies changed. Some became vegetarian, some went the other way, finding they did better with meat in their diets. It's not some kind of once and for all decision.
>>If someone chooses to meat after that, then at least it is an educated choice.
****************
Actually, it could well be a reactive choice - a choice to put one in mom's eye or rebel against food controls hidden under words like "We are a vegetarian Family". I've seen that in "vegetarian families". I've also seen "vegetarian families" where the kids binge on animal products outside their parents sight, to the point where friends stock up on milk or bologna when they know those kids are coming to visit.
> The goal is to have someone take it on as their own passion and love and who they are.
****************
You can't give or teach your passions to someone else. If you have a kid who naturally shares some of your passions, that's harder to see - what you're doing seems to be "working" in that sense. When you have multiple kids, some of whom share your interests and passions and some of whom don't, it's a bit more obvious. When your personal values are something your kids see and feel on a regular basis as sources of joy and comfort To Them, they do come to share those values but How that plays out in real life can be very different from one person to another. Passions are something else entirely - something that's a mild interest for me might be a passion in one of my kids, or something they find dull and uninteresting, no matter how big a deal I make of it.
> Another good idea is to bring vegetarian alternatives like smart dogs, veggie burgers etc. to every gathering you go to where you daughter might feel left out or tempted.
**************
That's the sort of thing which is a good idea if your child has allergies or serious food sensitivities, but doesn't work so well for something like vegetarianism because kids are natural explorers. They Want to Try things. It's not a terrible thing to let them explore. It's one of the most important ways they learn about the world.
---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think there should be reminders of that every day because it is all too easy to forget others' suffering when it isn't in our face-=-
So you will PUT IT in their faces!? Why?
There is enough sorrow in the world involving humans without going past that and suffering daily for the sorrows of chickens and cattle.
For a mother to remind a child daily that something or someone is suffering seems abusive to me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So you will PUT IT in their faces!? Why?
There is enough sorrow in the world involving humans without going past that and suffering daily for the sorrows of chickens and cattle.
For a mother to remind a child daily that something or someone is suffering seems abusive to me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-. I am a proponent of speaking the truth when it comes to meat. It can be an age appropriate version, but I think that people should always know the three basics things: that meat is an animals body, that the animal was enslaved by people for it's whole life and usually denied basic needs, and that it suffered.-=-
"The truth" often raises alarm bells in me.
Not all meat comes from "enslaved" animals.
Not all death is suffering.
Date rape always, invariably starts with a date. There IS no date rape that exists without a girl having agreed willingly to go somewhere with a boy. That is the truth. There are families that tell their daughter to NEVER go on dates, because that's all dates are about. Is that the truth about dating?
Some people use computers as jackoff tools. They will be able to find dirty pictures or stories (though men generally prefer pictures). It's happening somewhere, right now. There is pornography on the internet. That's the truth. Some people think that's ALL that's on the computer, and so they tell their children NEVER to go on the internet, because it is FULL of porn. Is that the truth about the internet?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"The truth" often raises alarm bells in me.
Not all meat comes from "enslaved" animals.
Not all death is suffering.
Date rape always, invariably starts with a date. There IS no date rape that exists without a girl having agreed willingly to go somewhere with a boy. That is the truth. There are families that tell their daughter to NEVER go on dates, because that's all dates are about. Is that the truth about dating?
Some people use computers as jackoff tools. They will be able to find dirty pictures or stories (though men generally prefer pictures). It's happening somewhere, right now. There is pornography on the internet. That's the truth. Some people think that's ALL that's on the computer, and so they tell their children NEVER to go on the internet, because it is FULL of porn. Is that the truth about the internet?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tova
You are thinking of it is an abusive way as if you are inundating a child unwillingly with the information daily. Of course not. It would be stepping away from thinking of oneself and thinking of others (whether human animal or animal). In our culture we are perpetually shown that the abuse is okay (If it is abusive to put the concerns out there everyday, is it also abusive to serve a child meat everyday?), so why not counter-show that the abuse is not okay with daily reminders of why we should care such as a daily prayer for the animals, fun vegetarian books or movies, websites, volunteering at a sanctuary, a photo on the fridge, an animal dairy, or other educational tools.
There is nothing wrong with integrating kindness and selflessness into your child's day every day.
There is nothing wrong with integrating kindness and selflessness into your child's day every day.
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Vegetarian and unschooling
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, December 9, 2011, 6:58 PM
-=-I think there should be reminders of that every day because it is all too easy to forget others' suffering when it isn't in our face-=-
So you will PUT IT in their faces!? Why?
There is enough sorrow in the world involving humans without going past that and suffering daily for the sorrows of chickens and cattle.
For a mother to remind a child daily that something or someone is suffering seems abusive to me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tova
It is unfair not to post my replies, too. Why does every post I make get broken up to bits? I just want to feel safe to share my thoughts on this group without feeling like I'm wrong about everything I write, or that everything I feel is controversial or debatable. :(
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Vegetarian and unschooling
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, December 9, 2011, 7:06 PM
-=-. I am a proponent of speaking the truth when it comes to meat. It can be an age appropriate version, but I think that people should always know the three basics things: that meat is an animals body, that the animal was enslaved by people for it's whole life and usually denied basic needs, and that it suffered.-=-
"The truth" often raises alarm bells in me.
Not all meat comes from "enslaved" animals.
Not all death is suffering.
Date rape always, invariably starts with a date. There IS no date rape that exists without a girl having agreed willingly to go somewhere with a boy. That is the truth. There are families that tell their daughter to NEVER go on dates, because that's all dates are about. Is that the truth about dating?
Some people use computers as jackoff tools. They will be able to find dirty pictures or stories (though men generally prefer pictures). It's happening somewhere, right now. There is pornography on the internet. That's the truth. Some people think that's ALL that's on the computer, and so they tell their children NEVER to go on the internet, because it is FULL of porn. Is that the truth about the internet?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
I and my husband have been vegetarian for a very long time and our kids (13
and 15) have always been vegetarian.
It is very possible that your daughter does not understand what meat is and
where it comes from. When my daughter was about 3/ 3 1/2, we were watching
either Babe or Charlotte's Web and one of the characters said something
about people eating pigs.... My daughter looked up at me and said with a
mirthful smile, "Mom, they said people eat pigs!!!" and she started
laughing. I replied that some people do eat pigs, at which point she
replied "Ewwww! Do we eat pigs?" To which I replied that since we are
vegetarian we do not eat animals, but that we do eat some things that they
produce without dying, like eggs and cheese.
She did get a bit militant for a while and we had to have some discussions
about how people make choices and that is okay and we can not make
judgements about other people's choices.
She asked a lot of questions about why do people eat animals and why don't
we and I did my best to answer her questions without making meat eaters
evil (which would include her grandparents and friends and nearly everybody
else) and vegetarians sainted. I also tried not to make the level of
cruelty that occurs too real for a 3 year old. I would just talk about how
most animals are very sad when they are being raised for food.
We have had a lot of discussions over the years about food and health and
nutrition. My kids have always made their own choices about food, but I
have never had meat in the house for them. And when my parents lived with
us, I cooked meat for them and my kids never asked to try it, but would
occasionally complain (out of earshot of my parents) about the smell and
grease.
Now that they are older, they both seem to be un-interested in eating meat
and committed to remaining vegetarian.
Chris
and 15) have always been vegetarian.
It is very possible that your daughter does not understand what meat is and
where it comes from. When my daughter was about 3/ 3 1/2, we were watching
either Babe or Charlotte's Web and one of the characters said something
about people eating pigs.... My daughter looked up at me and said with a
mirthful smile, "Mom, they said people eat pigs!!!" and she started
laughing. I replied that some people do eat pigs, at which point she
replied "Ewwww! Do we eat pigs?" To which I replied that since we are
vegetarian we do not eat animals, but that we do eat some things that they
produce without dying, like eggs and cheese.
She did get a bit militant for a while and we had to have some discussions
about how people make choices and that is okay and we can not make
judgements about other people's choices.
She asked a lot of questions about why do people eat animals and why don't
we and I did my best to answer her questions without making meat eaters
evil (which would include her grandparents and friends and nearly everybody
else) and vegetarians sainted. I also tried not to make the level of
cruelty that occurs too real for a 3 year old. I would just talk about how
most animals are very sad when they are being raised for food.
We have had a lot of discussions over the years about food and health and
nutrition. My kids have always made their own choices about food, but I
have never had meat in the house for them. And when my parents lived with
us, I cooked meat for them and my kids never asked to try it, but would
occasionally complain (out of earshot of my parents) about the smell and
grease.
Now that they are older, they both seem to be un-interested in eating meat
and committed to remaining vegetarian.
Chris
On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 11:24 AM, kgagnier0424 <kgagnier0424@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> I have a 3 and 1/2 year old daughter who seems to be ok with not eating
> meat at the moment so I'm looking for advice (preferably from other
> vegetarian parents) on what to do when the subject of meat does comes up.
>
> There was a small situation at a halloween party, where I looked down to
> see she had a hot dog on her plate. It was a miss assumption from my friend
> who thought I fed her meat. At that time I took the hot dog off her plate
> and she was upset for a little bit. I think it was the act of taking it
> away more than the fact that I didn't want her to eat meat that upset her.
> Of all the meats Hot dogs are the last thing I would want to feed her. She
> wanted to have a hot dog several months earlier (thanks to Mickey Mouse's
> Hot dog song) so I substituted it with a tofu dog. Turns out she didn't
> like it, so I thought good that need has been resolved. However, I would
> imagine it's a temporary resolution, until the curiosity comes back.
>
> I am ok with people eating meat. My issue is corporate farming and the way
> animals are pumped with by products such as hormones and antibiotics etc.
> As well as abused and severely neglected.
>
> After my daughter was born, I always thought that I would not allow her to
> eat meat until she understood the process behind it. It's not my intention
> to slam her with you're killing an innocent animal, shame on you kind of
> explanation. I want her to know where her food is coming from (which I
> already promote by taking her to local farms). I know an easy answer would
> be to feed her organic free range meat, but it's not that easily available
> where I am and it's more expensive AND free range doesn't necessarily mean
> the live stock are living in a good environment. Furthermore, where she
> will ask for meat is where it is served. How do you prepare for that?
>
> I'm looking for advice from other vegetarian parents raising their
> children with the unschooling philosophy. What worked in a positive way for
> you? What should be avoided? And do you find it appropriate (if the topic
> comes up) to share with a child the truth behind corporate farming?
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It is unfair not to post my replies, too. -=-
What do you mean? If your replies weren't coming through to the list, people couldn't quote them.
SORRY--I went and looked, and one post was still in the queue. I guess the moderators are busy doing things. I was taking a nap for a while this afternoon myself.
-=-Why does every post I make get broken up to bits? -=-
Feel free to quote parts of mine and other people's too. It's the recommended method in this discussion--not to quote the full post (because it's still in the e-mail and still in the archives) but quote the bit to which you're referring.
You should have received an e-mail when you joined asking you to read some things before you read on the list, and before you posted:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
There are links there to notes for new members, and notes on how to post.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
Anyone else reading here who isn't sure what that's all about, please read them too, even if you've read them before. It will make a positive difference in the tone of the list. Thanks.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What do you mean? If your replies weren't coming through to the list, people couldn't quote them.
SORRY--I went and looked, and one post was still in the queue. I guess the moderators are busy doing things. I was taking a nap for a while this afternoon myself.
-=-Why does every post I make get broken up to bits? -=-
Feel free to quote parts of mine and other people's too. It's the recommended method in this discussion--not to quote the full post (because it's still in the e-mail and still in the archives) but quote the bit to which you're referring.
You should have received an e-mail when you joined asking you to read some things before you read on the list, and before you posted:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
There are links there to notes for new members, and notes on how to post.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
Anyone else reading here who isn't sure what that's all about, please read them too, even if you've read them before. It will make a positive difference in the tone of the list. Thanks.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Years and years ago someone (a dad) explained cheerily that when he wanted his daughter to drink orange juice, he told her the juice would be sad if she didn't drink it.
This reminds me a little of that:
-=- I would just talk about how most animals are very sad when they are being raised for food.-=-
Keith and I drove through Texas last month, to see our oldest, in Austin. Long drive, daylight both times. We saw a lot of cattle. They didn't seem at all sad. If they were wild, there would be predators, but the ranchers protect them and feed them and give them water. Every animal is going to die at some point. Dying of old age or starvation or sudden predation is a fact of life for many creatures, and people.
In England and Scotland I saw sheep beyond number. They didn't seem unhappy. From the train I could see pig farms. The current laws in England seem to require not having too many pigs in any enclosure, and they have shade and natural grass in addition to other foods.
I think reciting worst-case scenarios without balancing that information is harsh. But what I think doesn't matter much. What I know from experience (mine and others') is that when parents are not honest and fair minded, the children can come to disregard their information and advice. For unschooling, I think that's the greatest danger.
Sandra
This reminds me a little of that:
-=- I would just talk about how most animals are very sad when they are being raised for food.-=-
Keith and I drove through Texas last month, to see our oldest, in Austin. Long drive, daylight both times. We saw a lot of cattle. They didn't seem at all sad. If they were wild, there would be predators, but the ranchers protect them and feed them and give them water. Every animal is going to die at some point. Dying of old age or starvation or sudden predation is a fact of life for many creatures, and people.
In England and Scotland I saw sheep beyond number. They didn't seem unhappy. From the train I could see pig farms. The current laws in England seem to require not having too many pigs in any enclosure, and they have shade and natural grass in addition to other foods.
I think reciting worst-case scenarios without balancing that information is harsh. But what I think doesn't matter much. What I know from experience (mine and others') is that when parents are not honest and fair minded, the children can come to disregard their information and advice. For unschooling, I think that's the greatest danger.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-Why not daily reminders? There are daily reminders that factory farmed meat is okay to eat everywhere one turns, so why not daily counter reminders that animals are hurt in these farms and that our choices can change that? -=-
If it doesn't create more peace for your children, it's not a good thing to do. I think that applies to just about everything. If factory farming is causing you to want to remind your children daily that there is suffering, then your children could be sorrowful and afraid. There are many things in the world to be happy about, and many that could make us all suicidal. You don't have to live with all of them every day.
-=- why not daily counter reminders that animals are hurt in these farms and that our choices can change that?-=-
Do you suggest to your children that someday no humans will eat meat?
-=-. It is not so much a daily reminder that there is evil in the world, but it is a daily reminder that you can make the world a better place with your actions; that you can help others by the choices you make! How empowering is that? -=-
You can hurt others by choosing to remind them daily that there is evil in the world. How powerless does that make young children?
You make choices that help others without reminding children of sorrow.
Our family has helped other families live more peacefully, and my kids know that. We didn't talk about spanking much here, and when our kids saw it they were surprised and offended. When they see a parent shaming a child, they don't like it. But that comes as a contrast to their lives, not because we reminded them daily not to like it. They're thinking their own thoughts in their own ways.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
When a parent is very involved in activism of any sort, it can affect the joy in the home.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If it doesn't create more peace for your children, it's not a good thing to do. I think that applies to just about everything. If factory farming is causing you to want to remind your children daily that there is suffering, then your children could be sorrowful and afraid. There are many things in the world to be happy about, and many that could make us all suicidal. You don't have to live with all of them every day.
-=- why not daily counter reminders that animals are hurt in these farms and that our choices can change that?-=-
Do you suggest to your children that someday no humans will eat meat?
-=-. It is not so much a daily reminder that there is evil in the world, but it is a daily reminder that you can make the world a better place with your actions; that you can help others by the choices you make! How empowering is that? -=-
You can hurt others by choosing to remind them daily that there is evil in the world. How powerless does that make young children?
You make choices that help others without reminding children of sorrow.
Our family has helped other families live more peacefully, and my kids know that. We didn't talk about spanking much here, and when our kids saw it they were surprised and offended. When they see a parent shaming a child, they don't like it. But that comes as a contrast to their lives, not because we reminded them daily not to like it. They're thinking their own thoughts in their own ways.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
When a parent is very involved in activism of any sort, it can affect the joy in the home.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tova
I have seen those. Thanks for posting them again though.
I don't know if it's the case for others but for me, my views on unschooling seem to extend to all beings animals included. I believe all lives should have a chance to be free and to live a full long rich life of their choosing. I dislike seeing animals penned up, for example birds in cages, when it is their right to be free to explore the world that belongs to them just as much as it does us.
Sandra- I believe in showing my child the sorrow that exists in the world while equally showing her the happiness that exists. Ironically, a lot of the happiness that exists is when we are able to help the sorrow of the world; to help those in need. How fulfilling and powerful to know that we can make a difference to the issues that our world faces! My household does not live in a false bubble that life is all rainbows and laughter, but neither do we think that life is all pain and sorrow. How about just reality? Life is both. I think it's great to learn how to help that sorrow, and consequently enrich our lives in the process.
I don't know if it's the case for others but for me, my views on unschooling seem to extend to all beings animals included. I believe all lives should have a chance to be free and to live a full long rich life of their choosing. I dislike seeing animals penned up, for example birds in cages, when it is their right to be free to explore the world that belongs to them just as much as it does us.
Sandra- I believe in showing my child the sorrow that exists in the world while equally showing her the happiness that exists. Ironically, a lot of the happiness that exists is when we are able to help the sorrow of the world; to help those in need. How fulfilling and powerful to know that we can make a difference to the issues that our world faces! My household does not live in a false bubble that life is all rainbows and laughter, but neither do we think that life is all pain and sorrow. How about just reality? Life is both. I think it's great to learn how to help that sorrow, and consequently enrich our lives in the process.
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Vegetarian and unschooling
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, December 9, 2011, 7:53 PM
-=-It is unfair not to post my replies, too. -=-
What do you mean? If your replies weren't coming through to the list, people couldn't quote them.
SORRY--I went and looked, and one post was still in the queue. I guess the moderators are busy doing things. I was taking a nap for a while this afternoon myself.
-=-Why does every post I make get broken up to bits? -=-
Feel free to quote parts of mine and other people's too. It's the recommended method in this discussion--not to quote the full post (because it's still in the e-mail and still in the archives) but quote the bit to which you're referring.
You should have received an e-mail when you joined asking you to read some things before you read on the list, and before you posted:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
There are links there to notes for new members, and notes on how to post.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
Anyone else reading here who isn't sure what that's all about, please read them too, even if you've read them before. It will make a positive difference in the tone of the list. Thanks.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<"so why not daily counter reminders that animals are hurt in these farms and that our choices can change that? ">>>>
Kids are hurt in their homes everyday too and by the people who should be protecting them. Do we need to tell our children that everyday too?
Being a farmer ( and not one that raises animals for slaughter) I would say that most farmers take really good care of their animals.
If not they would be loosing money. It is their live hood ( hope that is the right spelling).
<<<"It is because we are hidden from truths that it easy to not care.">>>>
I am not hidden from the reality of animals that are raised for food and I still choose to eat meat.
Do you think I just do not care?
My 5 year old daughter chooses not to eat cow meat. Unless it is my famous Sloppy Joe she likes so much.
My son eats cow meat. My husband chooses not to eat it too. If he is somewhere for a meal and there is nothing else
and he is there to eat at someone;s home he will eat but it is very very rare.
We are dairy farmers and my husband and daughter say they just love the cows too much.
<<<<"Natural explorers? Though I agree with you, I'm not so sure that they are natural explorers when it comes to food. I've seen most kids stick their noses up to foods such as vegetables. Furthermore, most would never touch faux meats because it is foreign to them and weird.
I think it's a great idea for the poster to bring veggie alternatives. She could even have her daughter pick out the faux meat so she can explore all the wonderful options out there which there are many.">>>>>>>>>
They stick up their noses for vegetables because they are told to eat their vegetables so they can get......fill in the blanks ( desert, candy whatever ).
My kids ASK for vegetables.
Just an hour ago I made salmon, mash potatoes and broccoli .
My daughter wanted BROCCOLI!!!!! that is what she wanted! I get that a lot here. They want fruits and vegetables . They like them. They have never been made to feel guilty they ate meat.. They can eat what they want and many times it is vegetables.
I could remind my daughter that the Sloppy Joe she likes so much I make it with cow meat. She knows trust me and still chooses to eat it even when she will
not eat any other cow meat. I would be easy to make her feel guilty for loving it and eating cows she loves so much .
I choose to make it for her lovingly and accept her choice and never to make her feel bad about it.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tova
>>When a parent is very involved in activism of any sort, it can affectthe joy in the home.
I'm glad Martin Luther King chose a life of activism and I bet his kids are too! Activism could be positive, empowering, enriching and a great example to kids. But I get what you are saying, sometimes it can turn negative or angry or even judgmental, and then it's not healthy to a home.
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Vegetarian and unschooling
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, December 9, 2011, 8:11 PM
-=-Why not daily reminders? There are daily reminders that factory farmed meat is okay to eat everywhere one turns, so why not daily counter reminders that animals are hurt in these farms and that our choices can change that? -=-
If it doesn't create more peace for your children, it's not a good thing to do. I think that applies to just about everything. If factory farming is causing you to want to remind your children daily that there is suffering, then your children could be sorrowful and afraid. There are many things in the world to be happy about, and many that could make us all suicidal. You don't have to live with all of them every day.
-=- why not daily counter reminders that animals are hurt in these farms and that our choices can change that?-=-
Do you suggest to your children that someday no humans will eat meat?
-=-. It is not so much a daily reminder that there is evil in the world, but it is a daily reminder that you can make the world a better place with your actions; that you can help others by the choices you make! How empowering is that? -=-
You can hurt others by choosing to remind them daily that there is evil in the world. How powerless does that make young children?
You make choices that help others without reminding children of sorrow.
Our family has helped other families live more peacefully, and my kids know that. We didn't talk about spanking much here, and when our kids saw it they were surprised and offended. When they see a parent shaming a child, they don't like it. But that comes as a contrast to their lives, not because we reminded them daily not to like it. They're thinking their own thoughts in their own ways.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
When a parent is very involved in activism of any sort, it can affect the joy in the home.
Sandra
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Tova
>>>I choose to make it for her lovingly and accept her choice and never tomake her feel bad about it.
That is very commendable. If my daughter ever decides to eat meat, I hope to never make her feel bad about it either.
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Vegetarian and unschooling
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, December 9, 2011, 8:38 PM
<<<"so why not daily counter reminders that animals are hurt in these farms and that our choices can change that? ">>>>
Kids are hurt in their homes everyday too and by the people who should be protecting them. Do we need to tell our children that everyday too?
Being a farmer ( and not one that raises animals for slaughter) I would say that most farmers take really good care of their animals.
If not they would be loosing money. It is their live hood ( hope that is the right spelling).
<<<"It is because we are hidden from truths that it easy to not care.">>>>
I am not hidden from the reality of animals that are raised for food and I still choose to eat meat.
Do you think I just do not care?
My 5 year old daughter chooses not to eat cow meat. Unless it is my famous Sloppy Joe she likes so much.
My son eats cow meat. My husband chooses not to eat it too. If he is somewhere for a meal and there is nothing else
and he is there to eat at someone;s home he will eat but it is very very rare.
We are dairy farmers and my husband and daughter say they just love the cows too much.
<<<<"Natural explorers? Though I agree with you, I'm not so sure that they are natural explorers when it comes to food. I've seen most kids stick their noses up to foods such as vegetables. Furthermore, most would never touch faux meats because it is foreign to them and weird.
I think it's a great idea for the poster to bring veggie alternatives. She could even have her daughter pick out the faux meat so she can explore all the wonderful options out there which there are many.">>>>>>>>>
They stick up their noses for vegetables because they are told to eat their vegetables so they can get......fill in the blanks ( desert, candy whatever ).
My kids ASK for vegetables.
Just an hour ago I made salmon, mash potatoes and broccoli .
My daughter wanted BROCCOLI!!!!! that is what she wanted! I get that a lot here. They want fruits and vegetables . They like them. They have never been made to feel guilty they ate meat.. They can eat what they want and many times it is vegetables.
I could remind my daughter that the Sloppy Joe she likes so much I make it with cow meat. She knows trust me and still chooses to eat it even when she will
not eat any other cow meat. I would be easy to make her feel guilty for loving it and eating cows she loves so much .
I choose to make it for her lovingly and accept her choice and never to make her feel bad about it.
Alex Polikowsky
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Pam Sorooshian
On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Tova <ml_ja@...> wrote:
of the list - to critically examine what is written here. Don't write it if
you don't want it carefully examined and discussed.
We aren't trying to reach consensus here. I don't care if everybody here
agrees with me or everybody here disagrees with me about anything, to be
quite honest. I use the list to get ideas and to get my ideas examined by
people who say what they mean and mean what they say. I love it. I'm used
to it now, but I used to find it thrilling - I mean really adrenaline-rush
thrilling.
But if you're not expecting it, you could feel pretty crushed, I understand
that.
Use your words carefully here. Don't use generalities or cliches. Say
carefully and exactly what you mean. For example, Tova said:
"-=-......I think that people should always know the three basics things:
that meat is an animals body, that the animal was enslaved by people for
it's whole life and usually denied basic needs, and that it suffered. And I
think there should be reminders of that every day because it is all too
easy to forget others' suffering when it isn't in our face. >>>>
Maybe you really didn't mean it. But what it says is that you believe in
reminding your children every day that animals are suffering, enslaved,
denied basic needs, and their bodies are being eaten. And you don't think
they should be allowed to forget about others' suffering.
So - I'm hoping that you don't mean it, that you aren't reminding your
children daily that animals are suffering. There IS a lot of suffering in
the world - I mean, why limit the daily reminders to only being about
animals?
-pam
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> I just want to feel safe to share my thoughts on this group withoutEverything any of us write on this list is debatable. THAT is the purpose
> feeling like I'm wrong about everything I write, or that everything I feel
> is controversial or debatable. :(
of the list - to critically examine what is written here. Don't write it if
you don't want it carefully examined and discussed.
We aren't trying to reach consensus here. I don't care if everybody here
agrees with me or everybody here disagrees with me about anything, to be
quite honest. I use the list to get ideas and to get my ideas examined by
people who say what they mean and mean what they say. I love it. I'm used
to it now, but I used to find it thrilling - I mean really adrenaline-rush
thrilling.
But if you're not expecting it, you could feel pretty crushed, I understand
that.
Use your words carefully here. Don't use generalities or cliches. Say
carefully and exactly what you mean. For example, Tova said:
"-=-......I think that people should always know the three basics things:
that meat is an animals body, that the animal was enslaved by people for
it's whole life and usually denied basic needs, and that it suffered. And I
think there should be reminders of that every day because it is all too
easy to forget others' suffering when it isn't in our face. >>>>
Maybe you really didn't mean it. But what it says is that you believe in
reminding your children every day that animals are suffering, enslaved,
denied basic needs, and their bodies are being eaten. And you don't think
they should be allowed to forget about others' suffering.
So - I'm hoping that you don't mean it, that you aren't reminding your
children daily that animals are suffering. There IS a lot of suffering in
the world - I mean, why limit the daily reminders to only being about
animals?
-pam
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
When a child grows up hearing this:
<<<" I would just talk about how
most animals are very sad when they are being raised for food.">>>>
Which it not really what happens in many farms. Even big cattle ones and I am all for animals being raised free and as humanely as possible( ours are in pasture and happy but are not raised for food). So you are making a huge generalization.
All farming practices discussions aside,
<<<"We have had a lot of discussions over the years about food and health and
nutrition. My kids have always made their own choices about food, but I
have never had meat in the house for them. "">>>>
HOW can a child feel free to make the choice to when she is hearing from a tender age that those animals raised for food grow up sad?
That is not what I see in the beef cattle around here I tell you.
I had a neighbor girl come to my house one time as a mother helper and play with my son when he was a toddler.
I had my TV on with something on that was really interesting. I do not remember what.
She said to me that she was amazed that there was good things on TV as she did not know, she was 12 or so.
I know , because of talking to her mom, that she grew up hearing that there was nothing good on TV and that it was all junk.
You could tell she was feeling conflicted about liking the TV show when she grew up believing that it was all a waste of time
I myself said out loud that I felt bad when my son shot some pigeons ( that make our calves sick). I regret it.
People are different.
My daughter will not let an Asian beetle die but she will trap gophers.
I cannot even see the gophers in traps it makes me sad.
Alex Polikowsky
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<<<" I would just talk about how
most animals are very sad when they are being raised for food.">>>>
Which it not really what happens in many farms. Even big cattle ones and I am all for animals being raised free and as humanely as possible( ours are in pasture and happy but are not raised for food). So you are making a huge generalization.
All farming practices discussions aside,
<<<"We have had a lot of discussions over the years about food and health and
nutrition. My kids have always made their own choices about food, but I
have never had meat in the house for them. "">>>>
HOW can a child feel free to make the choice to when she is hearing from a tender age that those animals raised for food grow up sad?
That is not what I see in the beef cattle around here I tell you.
I had a neighbor girl come to my house one time as a mother helper and play with my son when he was a toddler.
I had my TV on with something on that was really interesting. I do not remember what.
She said to me that she was amazed that there was good things on TV as she did not know, she was 12 or so.
I know , because of talking to her mom, that she grew up hearing that there was nothing good on TV and that it was all junk.
You could tell she was feeling conflicted about liking the TV show when she grew up believing that it was all a waste of time
I myself said out loud that I felt bad when my son shot some pigeons ( that make our calves sick). I regret it.
People are different.
My daughter will not let an Asian beetle die but she will trap gophers.
I cannot even see the gophers in traps it makes me sad.
Alex Polikowsky
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Jennifer Schuelein
I'm a vegetarian, but my son is not (I feel it's his choice to make). Over the years, as he has researched and learned and lived, he has decided to only eat organic or "happy" chicken (no other meats). He chose on his own to cut out fast food after he learned about the nutrition value. He gave up aspartame when he was 9 because I told him about the research concerning the substance. I give him all of the information I can give, on both sides. We talk about it and he makes his own decisions. This didn't happen over night. Xander ate hamburgers for years. He wanted to eat them, so he got to eat them.
Buying a little organic or local, free range meat to serve at home isn't a bad idea. We stopped going to restaurants because it's so expensive. That money goes to organic groceries. It's a good trade off for us. Buying local, in my experience, has proven to be the best and most trustworthy for true cruelty free meat.
One thing I did: I showed Xander a video about how chicken nuggets were made. I did not say one word about what I believed. I showed him the video and he decided to never eat another chicken nugget. This is the video by Jamie Oliver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKSoiDtdi9s
You can buy natural hot dogs at Whole Foods or a local natural grocers. I get the chicken ones and they have no nitrates or anything "bad" in them. Just chicken and flavor.
My unschooling philosophy is my life philosophy and it's about freedom of choice. My son chooses to eat meat even though he knows I am a vegetarian. This is his choice. It it not mine.
Buying a little organic or local, free range meat to serve at home isn't a bad idea. We stopped going to restaurants because it's so expensive. That money goes to organic groceries. It's a good trade off for us. Buying local, in my experience, has proven to be the best and most trustworthy for true cruelty free meat.
One thing I did: I showed Xander a video about how chicken nuggets were made. I did not say one word about what I believed. I showed him the video and he decided to never eat another chicken nugget. This is the video by Jamie Oliver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKSoiDtdi9s
You can buy natural hot dogs at Whole Foods or a local natural grocers. I get the chicken ones and they have no nitrates or anything "bad" in them. Just chicken and flavor.
My unschooling philosophy is my life philosophy and it's about freedom of choice. My son chooses to eat meat even though he knows I am a vegetarian. This is his choice. It it not mine.
--- In [email protected], "kgagnier0424" <kgagnier0424@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 3 and 1/2 year old daughter who seems to be ok with not eating meat at the moment so I'm looking for advice (preferably from other vegetarian parents) on what to do when the subject of meat does comes up.
>
> There was a small situation at a halloween party, where I looked down to see she had a hot dog on her plate. It was a miss assumption from my friend who thought I fed her meat. At that time I took the hot dog off her plate and she was upset for a little bit. I think it was the act of taking it away more than the fact that I didn't want her to eat meat that upset her. Of all the meats Hot dogs are the last thing I would want to feed her. She wanted to have a hot dog several months earlier (thanks to Mickey Mouse's Hot dog song) so I substituted it with a tofu dog. Turns out she didn't like it, so I thought good that need has been resolved. However, I would imagine it's a temporary resolution, until the curiosity comes back.
>
> I am ok with people eating meat. My issue is corporate farming and the way animals are pumped with by products such as hormones and antibiotics etc. As well as abused and severely neglected.
>
> After my daughter was born, I always thought that I would not allow her to eat meat until she understood the process behind it. It's not my intention to slam her with you're killing an innocent animal, shame on you kind of explanation. I want her to know where her food is coming from (which I already promote by taking her to local farms). I know an easy answer would be to feed her organic free range meat, but it's not that easily available where I am and it's more expensive AND free range doesn't necessarily mean the live stock are living in a good environment. Furthermore, where she will ask for meat is where it is served. How do you prepare for that?
>
> I'm looking for advice from other vegetarian parents raising their children with the unschooling philosophy. What worked in a positive way for you? What should be avoided? And do you find it appropriate (if the topic comes up) to share with a child the truth behind corporate farming?
>
Tova
Thanks for the post, Pam. It's understandable that some things people say on the list may be controversial and debatable. I was replying to the original poster with my own personal thoughts, and it was not my intention to start a debate. It seemed unkind to pick apart my whole post basically stating that everything I said was ridiculous, not valid, and wrong, and refrain from saying anything positive about my personal thoughts. It seems to put a whole negative air into this list when people aren't more thoughtful and gentle with others' thoughts.
I know that there are lots of thoughts and ideas that need to be gotten out there, but I wonder if that can't be done by just responded to the original poster with their own thoughts about the topic rather than picking apart another posters thoughts. ?
I know that there are lots of thoughts and ideas that need to be gotten out there, but I wonder if that can't be done by just responded to the original poster with their own thoughts about the topic rather than picking apart another posters thoughts. ?
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Vegetarian and unschooling
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, December 9, 2011, 9:04 PM
On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Tova <ml_ja@...> wrote:
> I just want to feel safe to share my thoughts on this group without
> feeling like I'm wrong about everything I write, or that everything I feel
> is controversial or debatable. :(
Everything any of us write on this list is debatable. THAT is the purpose
of the list - to critically examine what is written here. Don't write it if
you don't want it carefully examined and discussed.
We aren't trying to reach consensus here. I don't care if everybody here
agrees with me or everybody here disagrees with me about anything, to be
quite honest. I use the list to get ideas and to get my ideas examined by
people who say what they mean and mean what they say. I love it. I'm used
to it now, but I used to find it thrilling - I mean really adrenaline-rush
thrilling.
But if you're not expecting it, you could feel pretty crushed, I understand
that.
Use your words carefully here. Don't use generalities or cliches. Say
carefully and exactly what you mean. For example, Tova said:
"-=-......I think that people should always know the three basics things:
that meat is an animals body, that the animal was enslaved by people for
it's whole life and usually denied basic needs, and that it suffered. And I
think there should be reminders of that every day because it is all too
easy to forget others' suffering when it isn't in our face. >>>>
Maybe you really didn't mean it. But what it says is that you believe in
reminding your children every day that animals are suffering, enslaved,
denied basic needs, and their bodies are being eaten. And you don't think
they should be allowed to forget about others' suffering.
So - I'm hoping that you don't mean it, that you aren't reminding your
children daily that animals are suffering. There IS a lot of suffering in
the world - I mean, why limit the daily reminders to only being about
animals?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- It is their live hood ( hope that is the right spelling).-=-
livelihood (a really old word)
[Alex is a foreigner, but her English is pretty great.]
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livelihood (a really old word)
[Alex is a foreigner, but her English is pretty great.]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know that there are lots of thoughts and ideas that need to be gotten out there, but I wonder if that can't be done by just responded to the original poster with their own thoughts about the topic rather than picking apart another posters thoughts. ?-=-
I wouldn't mind these questions so much if you hadn't just assured us that you had read all those pages, twice now.
The purpose of the list is stated clearly, and then at length. Here's a link I didn't specifically list last time, though it's linked from the main page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
I would have returned your post to you, but another moderator had already let it through, which is fine. If you don't have time to read and consider the descriptions of the intentions of the moderators and owner, it would probably be better not to post. That's not for meanness; that's for the peace of the list and the happiness of posters.
-=-I'm glad Martin Luther King chose a life of activism and I bet his kids are too! -=-
They might rather have had their parents together and their father alive. It's possible. I'm not making any bets on the deal. Martin Luther King wasn't the only civil rights activist and speaker. There were others. His assassination singled him out. If all parents believed that there should be peace in all the world before they can have peace at their house, there will be no peace in ANY of the world. There are people whose children are grown, or who have no children, who can immerse their lives in sorrow and injustice. Those with young children should create happy surroundings for them if they can. Many can't. Those who can should.
Sandra
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I wouldn't mind these questions so much if you hadn't just assured us that you had read all those pages, twice now.
The purpose of the list is stated clearly, and then at length. Here's a link I didn't specifically list last time, though it's linked from the main page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
I would have returned your post to you, but another moderator had already let it through, which is fine. If you don't have time to read and consider the descriptions of the intentions of the moderators and owner, it would probably be better not to post. That's not for meanness; that's for the peace of the list and the happiness of posters.
-=-I'm glad Martin Luther King chose a life of activism and I bet his kids are too! -=-
They might rather have had their parents together and their father alive. It's possible. I'm not making any bets on the deal. Martin Luther King wasn't the only civil rights activist and speaker. There were others. His assassination singled him out. If all parents believed that there should be peace in all the world before they can have peace at their house, there will be no peace in ANY of the world. There are people whose children are grown, or who have no children, who can immerse their lives in sorrow and injustice. Those with young children should create happy surroundings for them if they can. Many can't. Those who can should.
Sandra
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
thanks Sandra. I did have a feeling I had it wrong !!
Sandra means I am a foreigner in the US. I am from Rio de Janeiro , Brazil and I live in
Minnesota married to a dairy farmer.
Forgive my writing as sometimes it may not make total sense or have grammatical and spelling errors.
Feel free to ask questions if it is not clear. I do not mind and I am not the least offended by it
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra means I am a foreigner in the US. I am from Rio de Janeiro , Brazil and I live in
Minnesota married to a dairy farmer.
Forgive my writing as sometimes it may not make total sense or have grammatical and spelling errors.
Feel free to ask questions if it is not clear. I do not mind and I am not the least offended by it
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 9, 2011, at 8:33 PM, Tova wrote:
This list isn't anti-activism. This list is about how to put children as top priority and then fit the rest of life around them.
If the question is "How do I handle being a vegetarian/Buddhist/greenie/human rights activist/minister/etc. with kids" the answer *here* on this list is be sensitive to creating an environment where the kids can explore at their own pace and come to their own conclusions. Having strong personal values means being extra sensitive to how information is shared with them.
That doesn't mean not sharing. It does mean sharing as much as the child wants to know. It means practicing values for yourself and being sensitive not to impose them on the kids.
You're confusing putting children's needs as a priority with making that a parent's only priority.
Part of unschooling is helping kids find more about what they like and avoid what they don't like. That includes not exposing them to information a particular chid doesn't (yet) care to know about.
If a parent is putting sensitivity for the ills of the world above a child's feelings, they're doing more ill at home than they can fix out in the world.
As they get older, they might understand if the feeling of neglect wasn't too crushing. But understanding at 13 doesn't erase the years spent wishing they were hurting enough for the parent to care about them too.
Joyce
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> my views on unschooling seem to extend to all beings animals included.Unschooling isn't living free lives. It's trust that kids will learn what they need by pursuing their interests.
> I believe all lives should have a chance to be free and to live a full long rich life of their choosing.But you believe in putting your agenda to educate your kids about the bad things in the world above their desires to know.
This list isn't anti-activism. This list is about how to put children as top priority and then fit the rest of life around them.
If the question is "How do I handle being a vegetarian/Buddhist/greenie/human rights activist/minister/etc. with kids" the answer *here* on this list is be sensitive to creating an environment where the kids can explore at their own pace and come to their own conclusions. Having strong personal values means being extra sensitive to how information is shared with them.
That doesn't mean not sharing. It does mean sharing as much as the child wants to know. It means practicing values for yourself and being sensitive not to impose them on the kids.
> I believe in showing my child the sorrow that exists in the world while equally showing her the happiness that exists.You're confusing "not showing" and "not educating" with protecting them from the knowledge.
You're confusing putting children's needs as a priority with making that a parent's only priority.
Part of unschooling is helping kids find more about what they like and avoid what they don't like. That includes not exposing them to information a particular chid doesn't (yet) care to know about.
> a lot of the happiness that exists is when we are able to help the sorrow of the world; to help those in need.It can also feel crushing if someone feels powerless to change things. Adults with power to change things forget how powerless and helpless kids can feel.
If a parent is putting sensitivity for the ills of the world above a child's feelings, they're doing more ill at home than they can fix out in the world.
> I'm glad Martin Luther King chose a life of activism and I bet his kids are too!If a child hears "No, there are hurting people that need me" more than a handful of times when they're small, the child isn't going to think "Wow, my parent is so great to spend time helping people." They'll think how their parent doesn't like them as much as they like other people.
As they get older, they might understand if the feeling of neglect wasn't too crushing. But understanding at 13 doesn't erase the years spent wishing they were hurting enough for the parent to care about them too.
Joyce
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 9, 2011, at 9:23 PM, Tova wrote:
The list really and truly isn't a list for unschoolers. It's a list for unschooling ideas.
The ideas need an unschooler to help them get onto the list ;-) but other ideas the unschooler has need to be kept off the list. Like ideas on how to give kids daily reminders about suffering in the world.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I was replying to the original poster with my own personal thoughtsBut your own personal thoughts weren't about unschooling. They were about making sure kids understand the world as the parent does.
The list really and truly isn't a list for unschoolers. It's a list for unschooling ideas.
The ideas need an unschooler to help them get onto the list ;-) but other ideas the unschooler has need to be kept off the list. Like ideas on how to give kids daily reminders about suffering in the world.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kristi_beguin
>>>I was replying to the original poster with my own personal thoughts, and it was not my intention to start a debate. It seemed unkind to pick apart my whole post basically stating that everything I said was ridiculous, not valid, and wrong, and refrain from saying anything positive about my personal thoughts. It seems to put a whole negative air into this list when people aren't more thoughtful and gentle with others' thoughts.<<<Nobody has said that what you wrote is "ridiculous, not valid, and wrong."
I have been reading through all these posts quickly at different intervals throughout my day...once while taking a quick break from work, once while taking a momentary break during snowboarding, once while hanging with my kids at the skating rink, and now that I'm home I'm having a better time digesting these posts. I am not sensing any negativity.
I think this is a great topic because it is really getting into the nitty-gritty of how words, ideals, values, and personal principals can either help or hinder unschooling.
Sandra Dodd
-=-It seemed unkind to pick apart my whole post basically stating that everything I said was ridiculous, not valid, and wrong, and refrain from saying anything positive about my personal thoughts. It seems to put a whole negative air into this list when people aren't more thoughtful and gentle with others' thoughts.<<<
-=-Nobody has said that what you wrote is "ridiculous, not valid, and wrong." -=-
True. And to accuse others of having done so is not helpful. To have perceived it was personal, and not about unschooling.
-=-when people aren't more thoughtful and gentle with others' thoughts.--
I need to be gentle with another person's thoughts!?
People are VERY thoughtful when they discuss unschooling on this list. But the target of the thoughtfulness is the children of the participants, not the participants themselves.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Nobody has said that what you wrote is "ridiculous, not valid, and wrong." -=-
True. And to accuse others of having done so is not helpful. To have perceived it was personal, and not about unschooling.
-=-when people aren't more thoughtful and gentle with others' thoughts.--
I need to be gentle with another person's thoughts!?
People are VERY thoughtful when they discuss unschooling on this list. But the target of the thoughtfulness is the children of the participants, not the participants themselves.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]