thinking about the future
Joy
Hi everyone,
this is a question for unschoolers with grown kids, or adults who were unschooled.
I am wondering what you did as you grew "independent" so to speak.
Did you go on to college?
Did you get a job?
Did you start a business?
I am curious because for anyone who has been to collage, I am sure you rememeber that it is school.
Supposedly self-directed but not really, still following someone's curricullum, even in graduate school, you need to be approved by a committee of professors, give a defence, be peer reviewed (censored) and what not.
As for having a job - I don't agree with this but from my own experiences, I saw how tough it was to get a job with a college degree (and for my peers too) with the exception to those who had a degree in something "practical" like computer science, engineering, law, etc.
I know some of my old friends from high school did alright working their way up so to speak right out of high school.
But what I would like to know is how challenging this is to do for unschoolers, considering they have that much more to prove to the world (not prove in the essence that I think they should prove something, but the world mostly acts like we all have something to prove -hence the job application, interview, listing educational credentials and work experience, etc).
Another question I have is - don't get me wrong, I think unschooling is beautiful in its essense.
Hence, I was schooled and am starting to deschool/unschool along with my kids and I love it, the freedom of this vs being told what to read, who to include in my dissertation, etc (for my grad studies) is a welcome change.
And I could go on doing this forever.
But sooner or later, since we are pretty well a monolithic culture now and it is difficult to live in isolation of society, challenging to live off the grid and off the land (not impossible but having money to do this helps a lot) so sooner or later we all have to
either open up a business or get a job/career in order to fit into our consumer culture that works on monetary exchange.
So how does an unschooler transition for the freedom of directing his/her own life to having to start living for others, to fit into the society.
I have my own business, and I love what I do, I am sometimes motivated, but often not - most often I'd much rather just read a cool philosophy book than write web copy.
But gotta pay the mortgage, food, clothing for myself, my kids, etc.
So how do you extend this unschooling philosophy of freedom and ultimate self-direction to fitting into this society.
I'm not advocating that fitting into society is the best thing to do - heck I'd choose not to fit into society if I could.
But as I mentioned, still haven't figured out a way to live without a mortgage or rent free (and yes, I did read the 4 hr work week - but this authoer still had deadlines, still worked quite a bit to get to his freedom of not working much at all) without fitting into the rigedety of society.
So how do unschoolers transition with this?
My kids are still small but I am one of those people who can't help but look at things from all angles and these are the questions that came to me.
It would be great to see real-life examples of unschoolers who faced these types of issues (i.e. integrating with society that does not value autonomy and self-directed learning/life).
In my google search, I found a unschoooler who is now a documentary maker/journalist, and one who is now a professor.
Both had interesting things to say about the pros/cons of unschooling.
But I would love to hear more stories.
Sandra -how did your kids make their transition and how do they maintain their ultimate freedom while still earning money for living in this society?
Thanks a bunch,
Joy
this is a question for unschoolers with grown kids, or adults who were unschooled.
I am wondering what you did as you grew "independent" so to speak.
Did you go on to college?
Did you get a job?
Did you start a business?
I am curious because for anyone who has been to collage, I am sure you rememeber that it is school.
Supposedly self-directed but not really, still following someone's curricullum, even in graduate school, you need to be approved by a committee of professors, give a defence, be peer reviewed (censored) and what not.
As for having a job - I don't agree with this but from my own experiences, I saw how tough it was to get a job with a college degree (and for my peers too) with the exception to those who had a degree in something "practical" like computer science, engineering, law, etc.
I know some of my old friends from high school did alright working their way up so to speak right out of high school.
But what I would like to know is how challenging this is to do for unschoolers, considering they have that much more to prove to the world (not prove in the essence that I think they should prove something, but the world mostly acts like we all have something to prove -hence the job application, interview, listing educational credentials and work experience, etc).
Another question I have is - don't get me wrong, I think unschooling is beautiful in its essense.
Hence, I was schooled and am starting to deschool/unschool along with my kids and I love it, the freedom of this vs being told what to read, who to include in my dissertation, etc (for my grad studies) is a welcome change.
And I could go on doing this forever.
But sooner or later, since we are pretty well a monolithic culture now and it is difficult to live in isolation of society, challenging to live off the grid and off the land (not impossible but having money to do this helps a lot) so sooner or later we all have to
either open up a business or get a job/career in order to fit into our consumer culture that works on monetary exchange.
So how does an unschooler transition for the freedom of directing his/her own life to having to start living for others, to fit into the society.
I have my own business, and I love what I do, I am sometimes motivated, but often not - most often I'd much rather just read a cool philosophy book than write web copy.
But gotta pay the mortgage, food, clothing for myself, my kids, etc.
So how do you extend this unschooling philosophy of freedom and ultimate self-direction to fitting into this society.
I'm not advocating that fitting into society is the best thing to do - heck I'd choose not to fit into society if I could.
But as I mentioned, still haven't figured out a way to live without a mortgage or rent free (and yes, I did read the 4 hr work week - but this authoer still had deadlines, still worked quite a bit to get to his freedom of not working much at all) without fitting into the rigedety of society.
So how do unschoolers transition with this?
My kids are still small but I am one of those people who can't help but look at things from all angles and these are the questions that came to me.
It would be great to see real-life examples of unschoolers who faced these types of issues (i.e. integrating with society that does not value autonomy and self-directed learning/life).
In my google search, I found a unschoooler who is now a documentary maker/journalist, and one who is now a professor.
Both had interesting things to say about the pros/cons of unschooling.
But I would love to hear more stories.
Sandra -how did your kids make their transition and how do they maintain their ultimate freedom while still earning money for living in this society?
Thanks a bunch,
Joy
Sandra Dodd
-=-But what I would like to know is how challenging this is to do for unschoolers, considering they have that much more to prove to the world (not prove in the essence that I think they should prove something, but the world mostly acts like we all have something to prove -hence the job application, interview, listing educational credentials and work experience, etc).-=-
I don't think they have more to prove to the world.
"The world" doesn't act. You wrote " the world mostly acts like ..." but even democracies don't act as a unit. :-) Even teams have disagreements. Even high courts have minority opinions.
Don't set up the idea that you and your children will not be in the world. You will be. Don't set yourself in opposition to "the world."
-=-But sooner or later, since we are pretty well a monolithic culture now and...-=-
You're thinking in opposition to a boogey man, a "monolithic culture" that you seem to feel will get you, thwart you, set up barriers.
I don't know how old your kids are, but the world is not, in 2011, the same as it was in 1991, or 1971. It won't be the same in 2031 as it is now. Living in agitated worry won't help you or your children or the culture in which you your own self live.
-=-it is difficult to live in isolation of society, challenging to live off the grid and off the land (not impossible but having money to do this helps a lot) so sooner or later we all have to either open up a business or get a job/career in order to fit into our consumer culture that works on monetary exchange.-=-
Do you think this is something new? It's not at all. Be calm. :-)
-=-So how does an unschooler transition for the freedom of directing his/her own life to having to start living for others, to fit into the society.-=-
By choice. The same as anything else. Nobody forced them to go to school, and nobody forced them to "do schoolwork" and (in the case of my kids, and many others I could name) at some point they were offered a job or inquired about the possibility of a job or applied for a job and went to work just like anyone else does--they negotiate a schedule and accept or reject the offer of compensation and (maybe if they're lucky) benefits, and they show up and work, just like they would if they had student loans. :-)
-=-I have my own business, and I love what I do, I am sometimes motivated, but often not - most often I'd much rather just read a cool philosophy book than write web copy.
But gotta pay the mortgage, food, clothing for myself, my kids, etc.-=-
You don't gotta. You could choose not to, but if you feel it as a "have to," then you're in a sad trap. If you see it as a choice, it becomes cool philosophical real life.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
-=-So how do you extend this unschooling philosophy of freedom and ultimate self-direction to fitting into this society.-=-
If you think of unschooling as an alternative to traditional schooling and traditional parenting, that will help you much more than thinking of it as "freedom and ultimate" anything. It's living in the real world, without school. It's learning in and from the real world. It's being of the real world.
-=-I'm not advocating that fitting into society is the best thing to do - heck I'd choose not to fit into society if I could.-=-
Where would you live? There isn't any unclaimed land on the planet anymore. You do live in a society, and it's better to fit in than to live a fantasy life of some sort.
-=-My kids are still small but I am one of those people who can't help but look at things from all angles and these are the questions that came to me.-=-
It is possible to think too hard about things that will never happen, and to spin oneself up into mental constructs that don't really fit reality. It would be better to spendtime with your kids.
-=-It would be great to see real-life examples of unschoolers who faced these types of issues (i.e. integrating with society that does not value autonomy and self-directed learning/life).-=-
Your definitions are all in your face, and your sticking them in our faces. My kids were never DISintegrated. :-)
Are you sure "society" never values autonomy or self-direction?
-=- I found a unschoooler who is now a documentary maker/journalist, and one who is now a professor.
Both had interesting things to say about the pros/cons of unschooling.-=-
I imagine you found someone who made one not-very-great documentary a dozen years ago and who interviewed some people who weren't really unschooled and were kind of depressed about the homeschooling they experienced. Welcome into the happier light!
http://sandradodd.com/teens
http://sandradodd.com/teen/jobs
http://sandradodd.com/teen/people
My kids are (as of yesterday) 20, 22 and 25. Holly is currently unemployed, babysitting occasionally, but has worked long hours (past 40 sometimes) in the past, and likely will again, but not right now. She still has savings, and is doing a lot of yoga.
Marty is going to the community college, not in a hurry, and working at a gaming/comic shop on Saturdays.
Kirby works full time in Austin and is a senior of a team of a couple of dozen.
-=-
Sandra -how did your kids make their transition and how do they maintain their ultimate freedom while still earning money for living in this society?-=-
Seriously... where did you get this "ultimate freedom" idea?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't think they have more to prove to the world.
"The world" doesn't act. You wrote " the world mostly acts like ..." but even democracies don't act as a unit. :-) Even teams have disagreements. Even high courts have minority opinions.
Don't set up the idea that you and your children will not be in the world. You will be. Don't set yourself in opposition to "the world."
-=-But sooner or later, since we are pretty well a monolithic culture now and...-=-
You're thinking in opposition to a boogey man, a "monolithic culture" that you seem to feel will get you, thwart you, set up barriers.
I don't know how old your kids are, but the world is not, in 2011, the same as it was in 1991, or 1971. It won't be the same in 2031 as it is now. Living in agitated worry won't help you or your children or the culture in which you your own self live.
-=-it is difficult to live in isolation of society, challenging to live off the grid and off the land (not impossible but having money to do this helps a lot) so sooner or later we all have to either open up a business or get a job/career in order to fit into our consumer culture that works on monetary exchange.-=-
Do you think this is something new? It's not at all. Be calm. :-)
-=-So how does an unschooler transition for the freedom of directing his/her own life to having to start living for others, to fit into the society.-=-
By choice. The same as anything else. Nobody forced them to go to school, and nobody forced them to "do schoolwork" and (in the case of my kids, and many others I could name) at some point they were offered a job or inquired about the possibility of a job or applied for a job and went to work just like anyone else does--they negotiate a schedule and accept or reject the offer of compensation and (maybe if they're lucky) benefits, and they show up and work, just like they would if they had student loans. :-)
-=-I have my own business, and I love what I do, I am sometimes motivated, but often not - most often I'd much rather just read a cool philosophy book than write web copy.
But gotta pay the mortgage, food, clothing for myself, my kids, etc.-=-
You don't gotta. You could choose not to, but if you feel it as a "have to," then you're in a sad trap. If you see it as a choice, it becomes cool philosophical real life.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
-=-So how do you extend this unschooling philosophy of freedom and ultimate self-direction to fitting into this society.-=-
If you think of unschooling as an alternative to traditional schooling and traditional parenting, that will help you much more than thinking of it as "freedom and ultimate" anything. It's living in the real world, without school. It's learning in and from the real world. It's being of the real world.
-=-I'm not advocating that fitting into society is the best thing to do - heck I'd choose not to fit into society if I could.-=-
Where would you live? There isn't any unclaimed land on the planet anymore. You do live in a society, and it's better to fit in than to live a fantasy life of some sort.
-=-My kids are still small but I am one of those people who can't help but look at things from all angles and these are the questions that came to me.-=-
It is possible to think too hard about things that will never happen, and to spin oneself up into mental constructs that don't really fit reality. It would be better to spendtime with your kids.
-=-It would be great to see real-life examples of unschoolers who faced these types of issues (i.e. integrating with society that does not value autonomy and self-directed learning/life).-=-
Your definitions are all in your face, and your sticking them in our faces. My kids were never DISintegrated. :-)
Are you sure "society" never values autonomy or self-direction?
-=- I found a unschoooler who is now a documentary maker/journalist, and one who is now a professor.
Both had interesting things to say about the pros/cons of unschooling.-=-
I imagine you found someone who made one not-very-great documentary a dozen years ago and who interviewed some people who weren't really unschooled and were kind of depressed about the homeschooling they experienced. Welcome into the happier light!
http://sandradodd.com/teens
http://sandradodd.com/teen/jobs
http://sandradodd.com/teen/people
My kids are (as of yesterday) 20, 22 and 25. Holly is currently unemployed, babysitting occasionally, but has worked long hours (past 40 sometimes) in the past, and likely will again, but not right now. She still has savings, and is doing a lot of yoga.
Marty is going to the community college, not in a hurry, and working at a gaming/comic shop on Saturdays.
Kirby works full time in Austin and is a senior of a team of a couple of dozen.
-=-
Sandra -how did your kids make their transition and how do they maintain their ultimate freedom while still earning money for living in this society?-=-
Seriously... where did you get this "ultimate freedom" idea?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joy
Well I got the idea of ultimate freedom from the idea of environment manipution - in that we are creating an environment for our children that is joyful and free of some of the more mundane things of life (chores, cooking, self-discipline etc), i.e. in creating this environment of saying yes most of the time (for the purpose of freedom and joy for our children - why else would we say yes most of the time).
But society on the other hand, does not say yes to us all of the time - so how does one transition from an environment of yes most of the time and living in joy most of the time to creating a life that can say yes, can say no, in other words, doesn't really care all that much about us at all.
I guess my point is, if we get used to creating a life from wherein everything is manipulated for our enjoyment (the yes environment) to a life that could care less about our experience (so we have to create from a yes or no environment) - how does one adjust to that?
But society on the other hand, does not say yes to us all of the time - so how does one transition from an environment of yes most of the time and living in joy most of the time to creating a life that can say yes, can say no, in other words, doesn't really care all that much about us at all.
I guess my point is, if we get used to creating a life from wherein everything is manipulated for our enjoyment (the yes environment) to a life that could care less about our experience (so we have to create from a yes or no environment) - how does one adjust to that?
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-But what I would like to know is how challenging this is to do for unschoolers, considering they have that much more to prove to the world (not prove in the essence that I think they should prove something, but the world mostly acts like we all have something to prove -hence the job application, interview, listing educational credentials and work experience, etc).-=-
>
> I don't think they have more to prove to the world.
>
> "The world" doesn't act. You wrote " the world mostly acts like ..." but even democracies don't act as a unit. :-) Even teams have disagreements. Even high courts have minority opinions.
>
> Don't set up the idea that you and your children will not be in the world. You will be. Don't set yourself in opposition to "the world."
>
> -=-But sooner or later, since we are pretty well a monolithic culture now and...-=-
>
> You're thinking in opposition to a boogey man, a "monolithic culture" that you seem to feel will get you, thwart you, set up barriers.
>
> I don't know how old your kids are, but the world is not, in 2011, the same as it was in 1991, or 1971. It won't be the same in 2031 as it is now. Living in agitated worry won't help you or your children or the culture in which you your own self live.
>
> -=-it is difficult to live in isolation of society, challenging to live off the grid and off the land (not impossible but having money to do this helps a lot) so sooner or later we all have to either open up a business or get a job/career in order to fit into our consumer culture that works on monetary exchange.-=-
>
> Do you think this is something new? It's not at all. Be calm. :-)
>
> -=-So how does an unschooler transition for the freedom of directing his/her own life to having to start living for others, to fit into the society.-=-
>
> By choice. The same as anything else. Nobody forced them to go to school, and nobody forced them to "do schoolwork" and (in the case of my kids, and many others I could name) at some point they were offered a job or inquired about the possibility of a job or applied for a job and went to work just like anyone else does--they negotiate a schedule and accept or reject the offer of compensation and (maybe if they're lucky) benefits, and they show up and work, just like they would if they had student loans. :-)
>
> -=-I have my own business, and I love what I do, I am sometimes motivated, but often not - most often I'd much rather just read a cool philosophy book than write web copy.
> But gotta pay the mortgage, food, clothing for myself, my kids, etc.-=-
>
> You don't gotta. You could choose not to, but if you feel it as a "have to," then you're in a sad trap. If you see it as a choice, it becomes cool philosophical real life.
> http://sandradodd.com/haveto
>
> -=-So how do you extend this unschooling philosophy of freedom and ultimate self-direction to fitting into this society.-=-
>
> If you think of unschooling as an alternative to traditional schooling and traditional parenting, that will help you much more than thinking of it as "freedom and ultimate" anything. It's living in the real world, without school. It's learning in and from the real world. It's being of the real world.
>
> -=-I'm not advocating that fitting into society is the best thing to do - heck I'd choose not to fit into society if I could.-=-
>
> Where would you live? There isn't any unclaimed land on the planet anymore. You do live in a society, and it's better to fit in than to live a fantasy life of some sort.
>
> -=-My kids are still small but I am one of those people who can't help but look at things from all angles and these are the questions that came to me.-=-
>
> It is possible to think too hard about things that will never happen, and to spin oneself up into mental constructs that don't really fit reality. It would be better to spendtime with your kids.
>
> -=-It would be great to see real-life examples of unschoolers who faced these types of issues (i.e. integrating with society that does not value autonomy and self-directed learning/life).-=-
>
> Your definitions are all in your face, and your sticking them in our faces. My kids were never DISintegrated. :-)
> Are you sure "society" never values autonomy or self-direction?
>
> -=- I found a unschoooler who is now a documentary maker/journalist, and one who is now a professor.
> Both had interesting things to say about the pros/cons of unschooling.-=-
>
> I imagine you found someone who made one not-very-great documentary a dozen years ago and who interviewed some people who weren't really unschooled and were kind of depressed about the homeschooling they experienced. Welcome into the happier light!
>
> http://sandradodd.com/teens
> http://sandradodd.com/teen/jobs
> http://sandradodd.com/teen/people
> My kids are (as of yesterday) 20, 22 and 25. Holly is currently unemployed, babysitting occasionally, but has worked long hours (past 40 sometimes) in the past, and likely will again, but not right now. She still has savings, and is doing a lot of yoga.
> Marty is going to the community college, not in a hurry, and working at a gaming/comic shop on Saturdays.
> Kirby works full time in Austin and is a senior of a team of a couple of dozen.
>
> -=-
> Sandra -how did your kids make their transition and how do they maintain their ultimate freedom while still earning money for living in this society?-=-
>
> Seriously... where did you get this "ultimate freedom" idea?
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Well I got the idea of ultimate freedom from the idea of environment manipution - in that we are creating an environment for our children that is joyful and free of some of the more mundane things of life (chores, cooking, self-discipline etc), i.e. in creating this environment of saying yes most of the time (for the purpose of freedom and joy for our children - why else would we say yes most of the time).-=-
It's not "manipulating environment." It's allowing them choices, in the moment, and in the next moment if there's time and it's safe and all's well, and in the moment after that, maybe. Rather than seeing it as a series of direct choices by the parent about giving more choices to a child, you're seeing it as a huge shift from one life/society/world to another manipulated environment. These concepts are big, and beside the point, and confusing. They're not confusing me, but it does seem they've confused you, and could confuse others new to unschooling.
"We" might not be saying yes most of the time. Each individual who reads things on my site or Joyce's or or this list or others might take some of those ideas and use them. It's not a movement of a group. I really dislike the idea of "the community" or "tribes." Really, it's a distraction and a problem. What I did, I did myself, with each of my children, and with my family as a whole, as we got better at it, and I would have done that whether others had been or not. It wasn't a "we." And it wasn't for the purpose of freedom or joy. It was so that they could be in a peaceful and optimal learning environment. There was a TON of freedom, but not "optimal freedom" or total or complete or overarching freedom. It was a near-constant joy, but that wasn't why I was saying yes so much.
If a thousand people do these things, it needs to be because each one, separately, of a thousand people, has gradually come to really understand the what and why of unschooling, rather than a vague "how." How comes from understanding why.
-=-But society on the other hand, does not say yes to us all of the time - so how does one transition from an environment of yes most of the time and living in joy most of the time to creating a life that can say yes, can say no, in other words, doesn't really care all that much about us at all.
-=-
You're stuck.
I have never asked society for anything. Never once. I have occasionally asked city or county government (in which case I was asking one individual clerk or officer), and have asked states and corporations, occasionally, for something (through whatever channels were provided. I have negotiated decorations and yard cleaning and border markers with my neighbors. Never have I interacted with society as a whole.
You have an enemy I don't have.
Your enemy isn't real, so it's probably good to drop those ideas, visions, phrases, that are pitting you against a heartless thing that doesn't care about you. And you're generalizing it by saying "we" and "us," imagining (I think) that we will be swept up in some fearful rhetoric, or agree with it. But I think you're incorrect to maintain that fear. You won't have joy in the shadow of an Evil Other.
-=-I guess my point is, if we get used to creating a life from wherein everything is manipulated for our enjoyment (the yes environment) to a life that could care less about our experience (so we have to create from a yes or no environment) - how does one adjust to that?-=-
When you write on this list, please try to KNOW what your point is. :-)
Clarity.
Posts for this list need to fulfill at least one of these criteria:
helps lots of people understand unschooling
asks a question that actually needs an answer
requests help seeing different aspects of a situation
helps people have more peaceful and joyful lives (helps lots of people on the list)
ALL posts should be
honest
proofread
sincere
clear
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
I see that you have a question that you think needs an answer, but I think your premise is flawed.
-=-I guess my point is, if we get used to creating a life from wherein everything is manipulated for our enjoyment...-=-
"We" didn't do that. I didn't do that. I hope you're not planning to try to do that.
A more peaceful life, maybe, yes.
A life of learning, sure.
But not a life where everything (or anything) is manipulated for your enjoyment nor anyone else's.
So if the premise is false, there's no follow-up.
If the "IF" is wrong, the "THEN" has nothing to follow.
-=- (the yes environment)-=-
Don't think of it as "the yes environment." Think of it as a series of mindful parenting moments.
-=- to a life that could care less about our experience (so we have to create from a yes or no environment) - how does one adjust to that?-=-
If you stop imagining it, there will be no need to adjust to it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's not "manipulating environment." It's allowing them choices, in the moment, and in the next moment if there's time and it's safe and all's well, and in the moment after that, maybe. Rather than seeing it as a series of direct choices by the parent about giving more choices to a child, you're seeing it as a huge shift from one life/society/world to another manipulated environment. These concepts are big, and beside the point, and confusing. They're not confusing me, but it does seem they've confused you, and could confuse others new to unschooling.
"We" might not be saying yes most of the time. Each individual who reads things on my site or Joyce's or or this list or others might take some of those ideas and use them. It's not a movement of a group. I really dislike the idea of "the community" or "tribes." Really, it's a distraction and a problem. What I did, I did myself, with each of my children, and with my family as a whole, as we got better at it, and I would have done that whether others had been or not. It wasn't a "we." And it wasn't for the purpose of freedom or joy. It was so that they could be in a peaceful and optimal learning environment. There was a TON of freedom, but not "optimal freedom" or total or complete or overarching freedom. It was a near-constant joy, but that wasn't why I was saying yes so much.
If a thousand people do these things, it needs to be because each one, separately, of a thousand people, has gradually come to really understand the what and why of unschooling, rather than a vague "how." How comes from understanding why.
-=-But society on the other hand, does not say yes to us all of the time - so how does one transition from an environment of yes most of the time and living in joy most of the time to creating a life that can say yes, can say no, in other words, doesn't really care all that much about us at all.
-=-
You're stuck.
I have never asked society for anything. Never once. I have occasionally asked city or county government (in which case I was asking one individual clerk or officer), and have asked states and corporations, occasionally, for something (through whatever channels were provided. I have negotiated decorations and yard cleaning and border markers with my neighbors. Never have I interacted with society as a whole.
You have an enemy I don't have.
Your enemy isn't real, so it's probably good to drop those ideas, visions, phrases, that are pitting you against a heartless thing that doesn't care about you. And you're generalizing it by saying "we" and "us," imagining (I think) that we will be swept up in some fearful rhetoric, or agree with it. But I think you're incorrect to maintain that fear. You won't have joy in the shadow of an Evil Other.
-=-I guess my point is, if we get used to creating a life from wherein everything is manipulated for our enjoyment (the yes environment) to a life that could care less about our experience (so we have to create from a yes or no environment) - how does one adjust to that?-=-
When you write on this list, please try to KNOW what your point is. :-)
Clarity.
Posts for this list need to fulfill at least one of these criteria:
helps lots of people understand unschooling
asks a question that actually needs an answer
requests help seeing different aspects of a situation
helps people have more peaceful and joyful lives (helps lots of people on the list)
ALL posts should be
honest
proofread
sincere
clear
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
I see that you have a question that you think needs an answer, but I think your premise is flawed.
-=-I guess my point is, if we get used to creating a life from wherein everything is manipulated for our enjoyment...-=-
"We" didn't do that. I didn't do that. I hope you're not planning to try to do that.
A more peaceful life, maybe, yes.
A life of learning, sure.
But not a life where everything (or anything) is manipulated for your enjoyment nor anyone else's.
So if the premise is false, there's no follow-up.
If the "IF" is wrong, the "THEN" has nothing to follow.
-=- (the yes environment)-=-
Don't think of it as "the yes environment." Think of it as a series of mindful parenting moments.
-=- to a life that could care less about our experience (so we have to create from a yes or no environment) - how does one adjust to that?-=-
If you stop imagining it, there will be no need to adjust to it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie
I have been reading this board for many years, although my kids are still young at 2, 4, and 6 years old. My understanding of saying yes has evolved over time. It comes down to this, for me: don't be an arbitrary no-sayer (naysayer?). 99%of the time I say no, it's knee jerk and thoughtless, hence Sandra's persistent insistence on parenting mindfully, at each moment. It's actually hard to say no if you take yourself off parenting autopilot and start being in the present moment.
I don't say no because my kids are constantly asking to play in traffic, or set the house on fire, or scale the side of the house to our roof! These things are not likely to come up very often :) I say no because I'm too tired or worn down. This means should take better care of myself and not stay up so late. I say know when I am being selfish and lazy because I want to do what I want to do. This means I need to work on being more generous. I say no when a request seems too impractical or fantastical. This means I need to be more flexible and open minded. I say no when I am overwhelmed. This means I need to be breathing deeply and focus on now - not 5 minutes ago when I had to clean up the bathroom floor again, and not 1 hour from now when I will have to figure out what to make for dinner.
My kids are nearly 100% dependent on me. This is a unique time of life. To have the person that you are 100% dependent on saying no without thought and consideration is an injustice. To me, it is simply more moral to help them do what they want and need to do than to be a roadblock to those things. I don't strive to say yes more to "give them freedom" or to help them stay excited about learning, although these may be some of the many by-products of an open, yes-filled optimistic attitude. I strive to say yes because it's kinder and more helpful and just the right thing to do for people I love and who are so dependent on me.
As my kids grow into independence and have more experience with the world outside of our home, they run into natural, non-arbitrary limits. There are certain places that require certain behaviors out of consideration for others or health or safety. They sometimes stand on our kitchen table at home when playing (the younger ones; our 6 year old has outgrown doing it) but we let them know that it's not appropriate any where else and wouldn't allow them to do it at a restaurant or someone else's hoe If it's not ok to run and scream when out, then we curb that too, or leave if the boisterousness can't be contained. I first read the phrase "freedom is not license" in relation to Summerhill several years back and that's one of my principles: exercising my freedom does not give me license to trample on another's rights, whether that be a right to safety, or an expectation of peace and quiet, etc. I try to demonstrate that with my kids. I told them once that I wanted to keep my cell phone on during a movie at a theater while I waited for a message, but that I was turning it off because the theater requests it and because the lights and sounds from my phone could be disturbing to
others. There's a reason behind that "no" at the theater - it's not arbitrary.
In the "real world" there are plenty of rules and regulations and limitations. They are usually there for a reason. Most people are not raised respectfully and thoughtfully as children and are therefore not always respectful or thoughtful. Not everyone has the same values. Rules and "no's" in the real world help very different people get along. Even though an individual rule can seem asinine, typically the intent or the larger purpose is to maintain peace and harmony among diverse people. Even the outside world is free of completely arbitrary roadblocks; so parenting thoughtfully and decreasing arbitrary, or exhausted, or frazzled, or fearful, or thoughtless or selfish no's from our home lives more closely resembles the rest of the world that you might initially think.
I've read on this list many times about "looking for the yes" when your kid is asking something of you/from you. A great challenge that turns that idea around a bit is to Try to think of a reason to say "no" at a time when you are being very mindful, thoughtful, and in the moment and when you are Not REacting to something. As I said above, it's actually hard to do, and the answer comes out, more often than not: "sure, why not?".
Julie M
James, 6
Tyler, 4.25
Audrey, 2
I don't say no because my kids are constantly asking to play in traffic, or set the house on fire, or scale the side of the house to our roof! These things are not likely to come up very often :) I say no because I'm too tired or worn down. This means should take better care of myself and not stay up so late. I say know when I am being selfish and lazy because I want to do what I want to do. This means I need to work on being more generous. I say no when a request seems too impractical or fantastical. This means I need to be more flexible and open minded. I say no when I am overwhelmed. This means I need to be breathing deeply and focus on now - not 5 minutes ago when I had to clean up the bathroom floor again, and not 1 hour from now when I will have to figure out what to make for dinner.
My kids are nearly 100% dependent on me. This is a unique time of life. To have the person that you are 100% dependent on saying no without thought and consideration is an injustice. To me, it is simply more moral to help them do what they want and need to do than to be a roadblock to those things. I don't strive to say yes more to "give them freedom" or to help them stay excited about learning, although these may be some of the many by-products of an open, yes-filled optimistic attitude. I strive to say yes because it's kinder and more helpful and just the right thing to do for people I love and who are so dependent on me.
As my kids grow into independence and have more experience with the world outside of our home, they run into natural, non-arbitrary limits. There are certain places that require certain behaviors out of consideration for others or health or safety. They sometimes stand on our kitchen table at home when playing (the younger ones; our 6 year old has outgrown doing it) but we let them know that it's not appropriate any where else and wouldn't allow them to do it at a restaurant or someone else's hoe If it's not ok to run and scream when out, then we curb that too, or leave if the boisterousness can't be contained. I first read the phrase "freedom is not license" in relation to Summerhill several years back and that's one of my principles: exercising my freedom does not give me license to trample on another's rights, whether that be a right to safety, or an expectation of peace and quiet, etc. I try to demonstrate that with my kids. I told them once that I wanted to keep my cell phone on during a movie at a theater while I waited for a message, but that I was turning it off because the theater requests it and because the lights and sounds from my phone could be disturbing to
others. There's a reason behind that "no" at the theater - it's not arbitrary.
In the "real world" there are plenty of rules and regulations and limitations. They are usually there for a reason. Most people are not raised respectfully and thoughtfully as children and are therefore not always respectful or thoughtful. Not everyone has the same values. Rules and "no's" in the real world help very different people get along. Even though an individual rule can seem asinine, typically the intent or the larger purpose is to maintain peace and harmony among diverse people. Even the outside world is free of completely arbitrary roadblocks; so parenting thoughtfully and decreasing arbitrary, or exhausted, or frazzled, or fearful, or thoughtless or selfish no's from our home lives more closely resembles the rest of the world that you might initially think.
I've read on this list many times about "looking for the yes" when your kid is asking something of you/from you. A great challenge that turns that idea around a bit is to Try to think of a reason to say "no" at a time when you are being very mindful, thoughtful, and in the moment and when you are Not REacting to something. As I said above, it's actually hard to do, and the answer comes out, more often than not: "sure, why not?".
Julie M
James, 6
Tyler, 4.25
Audrey, 2
--- In [email protected], "Joy" <joy_bakker@...> wrote:
>
> Well I got the idea of ultimate freedom from the idea of environment manipution - in that we are creating an environment for our children that is joyful and free of some of the more mundane things of life (chores, cooking, self-discipline etc), i.e. in creating this environment of saying yes most of the time (for the purpose of freedom and joy for our children - why else would we say yes most of the time).
>
> But society on the other hand, does not say yes to us all of the time - so how does one transition from an environment of yes most of the time and living in joy most of the time to creating a life that can say yes, can say no, in other words, doesn't really care ....
Pam Sorooshian
*****On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Joy <joy_bakker@...> wrote:
When you can explain your point simply and clearly, you will know that
you've really progressed in your understanding of unschooling. This post
took a lot of words and was a pretty convoluted way of asking:
"How will unschooled kids handle it when they grow up and are in college or
are employed and are faced with arbitrary "no's?"
I think grown unschoolers DO have less tolerance for arbitrary rules and
regulations than others. I don't think that is a bad thing. This doesn't
mean they can't handle them, but they do seem to me to be more aware of
arbitrariness and more willing to question their necessity and more likely
to try to figure out ways around them, rather than tolerating them
unquestioningly.
For example, there are many rules and regulations imposed by colleges such
as prerequisites for courses or specific courses required for degrees. Most
students just go along with those, but I've known a number of unschoolers
to question them and to ask for exceptions. And they've sometimes been
successful and sometimes not.
On the other hand, I have also been a little surprised to observe that
grown unschooled kids tend to be the students or employees who most take
the rules to heart and really do follow them. They tend to figure there IS
a reason for rules and restrictions and they seem to often be surprised
that others around them ignore rules, shirk responsibilities, and generally
try to "get away with" things.
My theory is that conventional parenting and schooling offered a training
ground for how to get away with ignoring, breaking, or bending rules and
our unschooled kids missed out on that training! <G>
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But society on the other hand, does not say yes to us all of the time - so*******
> how does one transition from an environment of yes most of the time and
> living in joy most of the time to creating a life that can say yes, can say
> no, in other words, doesn't really care all that much about us at all.
When you can explain your point simply and clearly, you will know that
you've really progressed in your understanding of unschooling. This post
took a lot of words and was a pretty convoluted way of asking:
"How will unschooled kids handle it when they grow up and are in college or
are employed and are faced with arbitrary "no's?"
I think grown unschoolers DO have less tolerance for arbitrary rules and
regulations than others. I don't think that is a bad thing. This doesn't
mean they can't handle them, but they do seem to me to be more aware of
arbitrariness and more willing to question their necessity and more likely
to try to figure out ways around them, rather than tolerating them
unquestioningly.
For example, there are many rules and regulations imposed by colleges such
as prerequisites for courses or specific courses required for degrees. Most
students just go along with those, but I've known a number of unschoolers
to question them and to ask for exceptions. And they've sometimes been
successful and sometimes not.
On the other hand, I have also been a little surprised to observe that
grown unschooled kids tend to be the students or employees who most take
the rules to heart and really do follow them. They tend to figure there IS
a reason for rules and restrictions and they seem to often be surprised
that others around them ignore rules, shirk responsibilities, and generally
try to "get away with" things.
My theory is that conventional parenting and schooling offered a training
ground for how to get away with ignoring, breaking, or bending rules and
our unschooled kids missed out on that training! <G>
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"Joy" <joy_bakker@...> wrote:
I think you're confusing unschooling with something else - "free range living" maybe, or "un-jobbing" maybe. Most unschoolers live in the world, in "this society" whatever that may be - different in cities and towns and rural areas, and different in different parts of the same country and across the world.
I don't think of unschooling in terms of freedom and certainly not "ultimate self-direction". It's about learning, and that includes learning to live "in the world" - which is different from learning to live in a school and then transitioning to adult life.
Ray's 18. He's been having a long, slow transition to adult life - and I've read similar things from other unschoolers, too. Ronnie Maier had written about her girls back and forth transitions from home to elsewhere:
http://sites.google.com/site/dragonflykaizen/unschooling-1
It helps to step away from thinking of 18 as some kind of magic number where the kids need to have a plan and be moving forward on that. Ray's been dabbling with wood and metal working and starting to make money doing that, plus odd jobs, but there's no goal of "independence by year x". And really, if he ends up caring for aging parents, or raising children, independence in some kind of "ultimate" sense isn't a realistic expectation.
---Meredith
>> So how do you extend this unschooling philosophy of freedom and ultimate self-direction to fitting into this society.********************
I think you're confusing unschooling with something else - "free range living" maybe, or "un-jobbing" maybe. Most unschoolers live in the world, in "this society" whatever that may be - different in cities and towns and rural areas, and different in different parts of the same country and across the world.
I don't think of unschooling in terms of freedom and certainly not "ultimate self-direction". It's about learning, and that includes learning to live "in the world" - which is different from learning to live in a school and then transitioning to adult life.
Ray's 18. He's been having a long, slow transition to adult life - and I've read similar things from other unschoolers, too. Ronnie Maier had written about her girls back and forth transitions from home to elsewhere:
http://sites.google.com/site/dragonflykaizen/unschooling-1
It helps to step away from thinking of 18 as some kind of magic number where the kids need to have a plan and be moving forward on that. Ray's been dabbling with wood and metal working and starting to make money doing that, plus odd jobs, but there's no goal of "independence by year x". And really, if he ends up caring for aging parents, or raising children, independence in some kind of "ultimate" sense isn't a realistic expectation.
---Meredith
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<"On the other hand, I have also been a little surprised to observe that
grown unschooled kids tend to be the students or employees who most take
the rules to heart and really do follow them. They tend to figure there IS
a reason for rules and restrictions and they seem to often be surprised
that others around them ignore rules, shirk responsibilities, and generally
try to "get away with" things.">>>>>>>>>>>
And even some young ones.. This past Wednesday my son was doing some Cub Scout project with other kids and it was about rules in the family.
They were writing down and talking about the rules the parents have in their home and if the kids like them, agree with them or not.
All this other kids had tons of rules from what time they needed to go to bed to how many hours of TV they could watch and so on.
They all had many of those that they did not agree with.
My son the rules in our home were safety and respect . When asked if he disagreed with any of the rules in our house he said he did not.
He said he thought they were all good and liked them.
Safety and respect are not rules like " only watch 1 hour of TV a day" or "No food before dinner". They are principles that make sense to them.
They want to stay safe. The respect is about being nice and mindful to others. When dad is sleeping we try not to make noise so he can sleep.
Things like that.
My kids have no problem following rules where they go, specially now that they are getting older. There is no running at the pool we go to so they do not run
and when they forget and get reminded by the lifeguard they slow down and do not get mad or bothered by being called out.
They will talk to me if they think a rule somewhere does not make sense, sometimes they understand , sometimes we come to the conclusion it is not a rule that makes sense but most of the time we need to follow it to be able to be in that place but we usually can see there is a reason for that rule.
Unschooling is not living int this alternative yes on everything world. We are living in the real world.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
grown unschooled kids tend to be the students or employees who most take
the rules to heart and really do follow them. They tend to figure there IS
a reason for rules and restrictions and they seem to often be surprised
that others around them ignore rules, shirk responsibilities, and generally
try to "get away with" things.">>>>>>>>>>>
And even some young ones.. This past Wednesday my son was doing some Cub Scout project with other kids and it was about rules in the family.
They were writing down and talking about the rules the parents have in their home and if the kids like them, agree with them or not.
All this other kids had tons of rules from what time they needed to go to bed to how many hours of TV they could watch and so on.
They all had many of those that they did not agree with.
My son the rules in our home were safety and respect . When asked if he disagreed with any of the rules in our house he said he did not.
He said he thought they were all good and liked them.
Safety and respect are not rules like " only watch 1 hour of TV a day" or "No food before dinner". They are principles that make sense to them.
They want to stay safe. The respect is about being nice and mindful to others. When dad is sleeping we try not to make noise so he can sleep.
Things like that.
My kids have no problem following rules where they go, specially now that they are getting older. There is no running at the pool we go to so they do not run
and when they forget and get reminded by the lifeguard they slow down and do not get mad or bothered by being called out.
They will talk to me if they think a rule somewhere does not make sense, sometimes they understand , sometimes we come to the conclusion it is not a rule that makes sense but most of the time we need to follow it to be able to be in that place but we usually can see there is a reason for that rule.
Unschooling is not living int this alternative yes on everything world. We are living in the real world.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Pam Sorooshian wrote:
-=-grown unschooled kids tend to be the students or employees who most take
the rules to heart and really do follow them. They tend to figure there IS
a reason for rules and restrictions and they seem to often be surprised
that others around them ignore rules, shirk responsibilities, and generally
try to "get away with" things.
My theory is that conventional parenting and schooling offered a training
ground for how to get away with ignoring, breaking, or bending rules and
our unschooled kids missed out on that training! <G>-=-
Even at much younger ages, my kids didn't want to ignore ANY dress code (for karate, hockey, dance camp, acting classes or Jr. Police Academy one or more of them attended at some time or another) or rules or lunch guidelines (what to bring or not to bring, how to act at formal karate weekend events). They were fastidious in following rules, because it was new to them.
When Holly was seven, she went to the karate school where Kirby had been studying already for a few years. Kirby could handle the fact that other kids were not serious about it, but Holly was offended by their casual, cavalier approach to karate. She wanted to do it right or not at all, and the silly behavior of the other kids was holding her back and wasting her time. I tried to explain that some of them weren't there by choice, and that most of them had just finished a long day of school and saw it as a chance for a break and to unwind, but she had no sympathy for that defense. She quit when she was eight.
Kirby was telling me a story of a worker he supervises who complained of measures being taken that would show whether he had been working or goofing off. He said, to Kirby (who is 25 but never went to school) that it seemed they were expecting him to work all the time he was there. Kirby laughed when he told me he had said "Yes, they do."
When my kids have taken jobs (and each has had three or more, and each has had longterm jobs), they go to work on time, they do what they're asked to do wholeheartedly, and are appalled by the lazy shirkiness around them.
They go beyond rules and restrictions, too, to courtesies and traditions. When Marty worked bagging groceries and bringing in carts and such at a grocery store, he worked with lots of high school students who would just not show up one day. The store manager had come to expect that of the kinds of kids they were hiring. Marty, when he decided to quit after sixteen months, gave them two-weeks notice, and worked just as hard those last two weeks as he did the first two.
Sandra
-=-grown unschooled kids tend to be the students or employees who most take
the rules to heart and really do follow them. They tend to figure there IS
a reason for rules and restrictions and they seem to often be surprised
that others around them ignore rules, shirk responsibilities, and generally
try to "get away with" things.
My theory is that conventional parenting and schooling offered a training
ground for how to get away with ignoring, breaking, or bending rules and
our unschooled kids missed out on that training! <G>-=-
Even at much younger ages, my kids didn't want to ignore ANY dress code (for karate, hockey, dance camp, acting classes or Jr. Police Academy one or more of them attended at some time or another) or rules or lunch guidelines (what to bring or not to bring, how to act at formal karate weekend events). They were fastidious in following rules, because it was new to them.
When Holly was seven, she went to the karate school where Kirby had been studying already for a few years. Kirby could handle the fact that other kids were not serious about it, but Holly was offended by their casual, cavalier approach to karate. She wanted to do it right or not at all, and the silly behavior of the other kids was holding her back and wasting her time. I tried to explain that some of them weren't there by choice, and that most of them had just finished a long day of school and saw it as a chance for a break and to unwind, but she had no sympathy for that defense. She quit when she was eight.
Kirby was telling me a story of a worker he supervises who complained of measures being taken that would show whether he had been working or goofing off. He said, to Kirby (who is 25 but never went to school) that it seemed they were expecting him to work all the time he was there. Kirby laughed when he told me he had said "Yes, they do."
When my kids have taken jobs (and each has had three or more, and each has had longterm jobs), they go to work on time, they do what they're asked to do wholeheartedly, and are appalled by the lazy shirkiness around them.
They go beyond rules and restrictions, too, to courtesies and traditions. When Marty worked bagging groceries and bringing in carts and such at a grocery store, he worked with lots of high school students who would just not show up one day. The store manager had come to expect that of the kinds of kids they were hiring. Marty, when he decided to quit after sixteen months, gave them two-weeks notice, and worked just as hard those last two weeks as he did the first two.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=- I don't strive to say yes more to "give them freedom" or to help them stay excited about learning, although these may be some of the many by-products of an open, yes-filled optimistic attitude. I strive to say yes because it's kinder and more helpful and just the right thing to do for people I love and who are so dependent on me.-=-
Julie, that was beautifully written.
I'm going to save it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie, that was beautifully written.
I'm going to save it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mitrisue
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
<<They were fastidious in following rules, because it was new to them.>>
My 6yo son is fascinated by posted playground rules, and we've had much conversation about them. He is amazed when kids don't follow the rules. We've talked about how it can work out to ignore them when no one is around and to follow them when it makes things easier for everyone playing together.
Whenever he encounters a rule, he looks at it from all angles and asks a lot of questions. His favorite signs lately are the "do not" ones with the circle and line through an image. He's thrilled when he sees one.
Julie
Sandra Dodd
-=-Whenever he encounters a rule, he looks at it from all angles and asks a lot of questions. His favorite signs lately are the "do not" ones with the circle and line through an image. He's thrilled when he sees one.-=-
My favorite thought about rules (and laws, and commandments) is that there wouldn't be a rule against something if no one or nothing had ever been harmed by someone doing it in the past. There used to be laws about being quiet in hospital zones. Now they have double-glazed windows and air conditioning, so sick people can rest regardless of noises outside, for example. There wouldn't be a commandment against coveting one's neighbor's wife or livestock if there hadn't been problems with that ever in the past.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My favorite thought about rules (and laws, and commandments) is that there wouldn't be a rule against something if no one or nothing had ever been harmed by someone doing it in the past. There used to be laws about being quiet in hospital zones. Now they have double-glazed windows and air conditioning, so sick people can rest regardless of noises outside, for example. There wouldn't be a commandment against coveting one's neighbor's wife or livestock if there hadn't been problems with that ever in the past.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"Joy" <joy_bakker@...> wrote:
Saying yes isn't about freedom so much as it is about seeing what helps people learn and have good relationships. Knowing how to have a good relationship is a valuable life skill! Not just in families but in the workplace, too. And having confidence in one's ability to learn is one of the most useful skills a person can have.
Throwing lots of "nos" in the way of children doesn't help them learn life skills, other than the most utterly primitive. Saying yes more involves a greater degree of skillfulness - how do I get from "that's not going to happen" to something better? So kids get to See a greater degree of skillfulness in problem solving - that's important! Effective problem solving is a Very Useful life skill.
Thoughtfully saying yes more is different than knee-jerk yes-to-everything. To say yes thoughtfully, one needs to look around - how do I say yes to one kid who wants to go out to breakfast when another wants to stay home and play WoW? How do I say yes to a child who wants to climb when we're in a place where climbing could be dangerous or frowned upon? How do I say yes when I'm exhausted? None of those are ultimate-freedom situations.
There's no adjustment. There Are real limits in life. Unschooling doesn't pretend otherwise it helps kids and parents discover more options - and that's a Brilliantly useful life skill. Sometimes the other option is reassurance and commiseration instead of "no crying" but often there are options beyond "yes or no" - like "tomorrow" or "with help" or "when it goes on sale".
If your kids are little, it may be hard to see that, yet. With little kids, it sometimes feels like you're doing it All. This chart might help - its about how much time to spend with your kids, but its a nice (rough) picture of what that transition you're imagining looks like - not a sudden change, but something that happens over time:
http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely
---Meredith
>**********************
> Well I got the idea of ultimate freedom from the idea of ... creating this environment of saying yes most of the time (for the purpose of freedom and joy for our children - why else would we say yes most of the time).
Saying yes isn't about freedom so much as it is about seeing what helps people learn and have good relationships. Knowing how to have a good relationship is a valuable life skill! Not just in families but in the workplace, too. And having confidence in one's ability to learn is one of the most useful skills a person can have.
Throwing lots of "nos" in the way of children doesn't help them learn life skills, other than the most utterly primitive. Saying yes more involves a greater degree of skillfulness - how do I get from "that's not going to happen" to something better? So kids get to See a greater degree of skillfulness in problem solving - that's important! Effective problem solving is a Very Useful life skill.
Thoughtfully saying yes more is different than knee-jerk yes-to-everything. To say yes thoughtfully, one needs to look around - how do I say yes to one kid who wants to go out to breakfast when another wants to stay home and play WoW? How do I say yes to a child who wants to climb when we're in a place where climbing could be dangerous or frowned upon? How do I say yes when I'm exhausted? None of those are ultimate-freedom situations.
> I guess my point is, if we get used to creating a life from wherein everything is manipulated for our enjoyment (the yes environment) to a life that could care less about our experience (so we have to create from a yes or no environment) - how does one adjust to that?****************
There's no adjustment. There Are real limits in life. Unschooling doesn't pretend otherwise it helps kids and parents discover more options - and that's a Brilliantly useful life skill. Sometimes the other option is reassurance and commiseration instead of "no crying" but often there are options beyond "yes or no" - like "tomorrow" or "with help" or "when it goes on sale".
If your kids are little, it may be hard to see that, yet. With little kids, it sometimes feels like you're doing it All. This chart might help - its about how much time to spend with your kids, but its a nice (rough) picture of what that transition you're imagining looks like - not a sudden change, but something that happens over time:
http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely
---Meredith
Meredith
Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
---Meredith
>> My theory is that conventional parenting and schooling offered a trainingRay had that training, but it was unschooling which helped him actively choose when to do those things and when to... follow the rules (gasp!). While he was in school and deschooling, he would challenge whatever rules in a sort of knee-jerk fashion. Now, he can decide - okay, this rule makes sense, and that one isn't a big deal, and this other I can just bend a little but still be in the spirit,... but that one will land me in jail if I break it, even though it's stupid, so I'll go along with it.
> ground for how to get away with ignoring, breaking, or bending rules and
> our unschooled kids missed out on that training! <G>
---Meredith
undermom
**When my kids have taken jobs (and each has had three or more, and each has had longterm jobs), they go to work on time, they do what they're asked to do wholeheartedly, and are appalled by the lazy shirkiness around them.**
There's a nasty respiratory virus working its way through my family this week, even the ones who don't live here anymore.
Patrick (19, always unschooled) went into work for 3 hours on Tuesday after waking up feeling horrible, because there was a shipment needing to be packaged for the truck arriving that afternoon and there wasn't anyone else available to do it at all. When he was done he came back home and slept for three days.
Sarah (19, always unschooled) went to all her college classes and to joint project sessions and to the workshop to construct the signage for an information booth her club is holding on Monday, and to rehearsal for a production of A Christmas Carol. She worked hard to prevent infecting others but insisted on fulfilling her obligations. In between she slept, a lot. She's at work today. There isn't anyone else who can do what she's doing there.
Melissa (26, always unschooled) worked 60 hours this week at her full time job, and mostly slept when she wasn't at work. There were important deadlines and artwork that had to be out this week and without the whole team there it just wouldn't have gotten done. She's at work at her part time job today. The only person who could have covered for her there is her sister.
They all have friends and coworkers who don't think twice about taking "sick days" when they just don't feel like going to work, let alone when they're actually really ill. I am not, btw, advocating that this is necessarily a good thing - I'd have been happier, frankly, if they took a little better care of themselves, but it is a current example of how always unschooled people grow up and deal with responsibility out in the world.
Deborah in IL
There's a nasty respiratory virus working its way through my family this week, even the ones who don't live here anymore.
Patrick (19, always unschooled) went into work for 3 hours on Tuesday after waking up feeling horrible, because there was a shipment needing to be packaged for the truck arriving that afternoon and there wasn't anyone else available to do it at all. When he was done he came back home and slept for three days.
Sarah (19, always unschooled) went to all her college classes and to joint project sessions and to the workshop to construct the signage for an information booth her club is holding on Monday, and to rehearsal for a production of A Christmas Carol. She worked hard to prevent infecting others but insisted on fulfilling her obligations. In between she slept, a lot. She's at work today. There isn't anyone else who can do what she's doing there.
Melissa (26, always unschooled) worked 60 hours this week at her full time job, and mostly slept when she wasn't at work. There were important deadlines and artwork that had to be out this week and without the whole team there it just wouldn't have gotten done. She's at work at her part time job today. The only person who could have covered for her there is her sister.
They all have friends and coworkers who don't think twice about taking "sick days" when they just don't feel like going to work, let alone when they're actually really ill. I am not, btw, advocating that this is necessarily a good thing - I'd have been happier, frankly, if they took a little better care of themselves, but it is a current example of how always unschooled people grow up and deal with responsibility out in the world.
Deborah in IL
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 4, 2011, at 1:33 AM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
I've heard (schooled) kids complain about rules in terms of feeling
bossed around. For many kids rules are the powerful exercising their
power on the powerless. So once the kids feel they have the power to
defy, they do so. It's like they've been taught that rules are merely
a game of power. The one who gets their way wins.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My theory is that conventional parenting and schooling offered aAnd not just a training ground of how to but it creates a desire to.
> training
> ground for how to get away with ignoring, breaking, or bending rules
> and
> our unschooled kids missed out on that training! <G>
I've heard (schooled) kids complain about rules in terms of feeling
bossed around. For many kids rules are the powerful exercising their
power on the powerless. So once the kids feel they have the power to
defy, they do so. It's like they've been taught that rules are merely
a game of power. The one who gets their way wins.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It's like they've been taught that rules are merely
a game of power. The one who gets their way wins.-=-
And a large number of them "win" their way into bad relationships, legal trouble, gangs and prison.
Too much control, disdain and disregard can ruin a person irreparably.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
a game of power. The one who gets their way wins.-=-
And a large number of them "win" their way into bad relationships, legal trouble, gangs and prison.
Too much control, disdain and disregard can ruin a person irreparably.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]