teresa regan

hello all--

i am new to unschooling, have an almost five year old daughter and a five month old daughter and i need help dissolving my fears about tv.

we lifted tv restrictions about a month and a half ago and my dd has been watching a lot.  some days 7 or 8 hours at a sitting, sometimes broken up into 2 or 3 sittings of about 2 hours a piece.  i am having trouble staying positive.  i want to totally embrace her and whatever she is drawn to (she loves movies and doesn't want to budge even when i offer other enticing activities), so why am i having such difficulty embracing tv and how can i dissolve my negativity?

my negative thought patterns around the tv are that sitting still and having stories fed to you rather than living your own story, your own life, is a low form of existence.  that the pace, music, and storylines of tv/movies are seductive and draw attention away from the present moment, from our own lives.  that the human mind wasn't designed to be taking in information and stimulation at the pace the tv spits it out, that the optimal level of stimulation is found in a natural setting, therefore we should be outside more or doing any other activities that keep our minds in the "real" time of the present moment.  i spent my early 20s meditating in a zen monastery in japan--the awareness of the present moment is a very real experience for me.  the belief that there is a clear seeing eye in each of us, in every moment, is a strong belief for me.  that this remain clear and present is something i am giving my life to attending to and i see tv as a very
quick way to add layers onto that clear seeing eye, muddling the vision, separating us from our true selves.  at the same time, i feel my own delusion in seeing things as good vs bad, and that by labeling tv as bad, i am weighing down the present moment of tv watching with idea of "bad".  yet i don't know how to drop this negativity.  that is why i am writing here.

a part of the problem for me is that we live on a beautiful island in the pacific northwest and i have yet to meet another real, live radical unschooling family.  the community we do have was formed through the Waldorf school that dd attended for four months last year.  these healthy-living folks are super against tv and "junk" food.  they feel strongly that children's imaginative play should unfold without the nasty influence of media and are doing their best to protect their kids from these influences (hence moving to an island with a quaint waldorf school on it).  i feel like an in-the-closet unschooler, unable to discuss my unschooling process with them, while at the same time hearing their views against tv, second-guessing myself, and feeling embarassed when my dd brings up She-Ra (a favorite she discovered on netflix) at playdates.   perhaps i need to step away from these connections, at least until i become more confident in my decisions.
 it is their very division of the world into good and bad that i find repelling and yet am somehow drawn to, and then question whether or not i, too, should be more moral and restrict influences that might muddy the clarity of my childrens' minds and beings.

another tough part for me is that i feel disconnected from my daughter when she watches tv.  i watch some with her, but my 5 month old doesn't want to sit still in that way.  we live in a small studio house, so i can always hear what is going on in the shows, she runs to tell me things, and i'll interject questions occasionally.  but i miss being with her, doing things together, carrying on a conversation, and watching in awe at how beautifully she moves through the world.

any helpful hints you can offer would be appreciated.  i am truly sick of carrying this negativity within me and want to feel free to embrace all of our life.

thank you---teresa

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Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 14, 2011, at 9:13 PM, teresa regan wrote:

> my negative thought patterns around the tv are that sitting still
> and having stories fed to you rather than living your own story,
> your own life, is a low form of existence. that the pace, music, and
> storylines of tv/movies are seductive and draw attention away from
> the present moment, from our own lives

Replace TV/movies with books, plays, puppet shows, concerts, sporting
events.

They all do what you've listed that makes TV so bad.

> that the human mind wasn't designed to be taking in information and
> stimulation at the pace the tv spits it out, that the optimal level
> of stimulation is found in a natural setting, therefore we should be
> outside more or doing any other activities that keep our minds in
> the "real" time of the present moment.


You state that as fact.

Have you ever listened to or watched something sped up so fast you
can't take it in? Does it make you enraptured? Or do you shut it out
and get bored?

The brain is pretty good at protecting itself!

And in fact the other argument for TV is that it's too passive, that
we aren't even thinking while watching.

So which is it? How can both be true?

How can either be true? If you look at what your daughter is learning
instead of what the fearful people say about TV, which seems more right?

> i spent my early 20s meditating in a zen monastery in japan--the
> awareness of the present moment is a very real experience for me.


Did someone make you do that? Did someone shut off the TV and tell you
Zen was better for you?

If you value it, practice it. Offer a little taste of it when they're
upset, offer a deep calming breath.

Or maybe be in the moment with your daughter, experiencing what she's
experiencing rather than being off in your head that's been filled
with other people's worries.

> i see tv as a very
> quick way to add layers onto that clear seeing eye, muddling the
> vision, separating us from our true selves.

And I think you're allowing others' words to add a layer and muddying
eye between you and your daughter. You're looking outward at others
and not at your daughter. You're not seeing her and her delight and
her experience. You're seeing what other people want you to see when
you look at her watching TV.

> at the same time, i feel my own delusion in seeing things as good vs
> bad, and that by labeling tv as bad, i am weighing down the present
> moment of tv watching with idea of "bad". yet i don't know how to
> drop this negativity. that is why i am writing here.


Some things *are* good and bad. But both terms are used for such a
wide variety of meanings, that it helps clear thinking to use more
precise words, like hurtful, joyful and others.

If your daughter was doing something else and was eagerly embracing
it, running to you to share what she was discovering, would that cause
you to label it as hurtful? So where is the hurtful idea coming from?
And why is that idea more important to you than your daughter's
experience?

> these healthy-living folks are super against tv and "junk" food.


How are the teens on the island? Rather than looking at how "great"
the mothers are for being protective, look at how it turns out. Are
they friendly? Do they enjoy talking to adults? Are they trustworthy
away from their parents? Are they people you'd enjoy spending time with?

And what about the families who moved away from Waldorf?

> they feel strongly that children's imaginative play should unfold
> without the nasty influence of media and are doing their best to
> protect their kids from these influences (hence moving to an island
> with a quaint waldorf school on it).


I think people who need external proof that creativity is at play lack
creativity themselves ;-)

Yes, it's much easier to see kids being imaginative without TV, but
just because you can't see what's going on inside someone, does that
mean it's not happening?

Pokemon was the seed that sparked a huge amount of Kathryn's learning
and interests. If someone had seen what she did as parroting other
people's ideas, they would have missed what was actually going on,
that she took an idea and played with it and pushed it and expanded
it. It was like a platform she built from. If my concern had been that
she needed to use her own imagination rather than (branch off) someone
else's, I would have deprived her of what brought delight to her
exploring widely.

If you want to know what's going on inside, have conversations with
your daughter. Find out what delights her. Pay attention to where her
play goes. Look at *her*.

> it is their very division of the world into good and bad that i
> find repelling and yet am somehow drawn to,


It's natural to want to protect our children. But if those protective
walls keep them from exploring what interests them, then is the
protection more harmful than what they're being protected from?

Why are children's interests not treated with respect? Why would it be
better to tell kids (through our actions) that what they feel, what
they like, what interests them is not to be trusted and they should
trust us instead? How will that message serve them as adults? That
memorizing the right answers of more knowledgeable people is better
than exploring and deciding for yourself? That if an older boyfriend
says "Trust me, I know what's best for you" they should believe him?

> and then question whether or not i, too, should be more moral and
> restrict influences that might muddy the clarity of my childrens'
> minds and beings.

And how moral is it to impose your beliefs on your children to the
point that you're taking away what they enjoy?

What you're doing is no different from what fundamentalist Christians
and Muslims and religious cults do. They know what's right for others
and give them only what they believe is good for them.

But we don't discover what's good for us by memorizing other people's
good. We do it by exploring and thinking and deciding what we like and
what we don't like.

Would your Zen experience have made the same impact if someone else
had decided that's what was good and made you practice, kept you away
from what they believed was bad?

> but i miss being with her, doing things together, carrying on a
> conversation, and watching in awe at how beautifully she moves
> through the world.

It isn't up to your daughter to change to meet your needs. It's up to
you to change to meet your needs. You're the one who has the power to
manipulate the world. Rather than meeting your needs OR her needs how
can you meet her needs AND yours AND your 5 mo?

Though first, I would give it 6 months! She has a huge empty spot for
visual stories in her that needs filled. Think of her like a bucket
with a hole in it. The bucket leaks and needs filled with 1 or 2
movies a day. But right now the bucket is empty because of prior
restrictions. So she not only needs her 1 or 2 movies a day, but she
also needs to get that bucket full. Until that bucket is full, she
can't need just 1 or 2.

When she's full -- and she'll let you know by wandering away from the
TV -- how can you *add* to her life that contains TV rather than
trying to replace TV?

Joyce

catfish_friend

------ it is their very division of the world into good and bad that i find repelling and yet am somehow drawn to, and then question whether or not i, too, should be more moral and restrict influences that might muddy the clarity of my childrens' minds and beings. ------

"their" referring to Waldorf -- I want to point out that they add influences of fairies, gnomes and a not-so-hidden Christian influence. I don't consider presenting all these as Real to young minds as moral. This was my initial main objection to Waldorf.

And, what exactly is "clarity"? Is it seeing a world without technology? I would call that a lie. Or living in Amish country.

Considering that Waldorf came from a time before cell phones and computers makes me consider the philosophy as anachronistic. I think about most world religions with heavy emphasis on texts and written rules in the same way. In its respective context, it is likely to make more sense. Transported into the present, I think it is very confusing.

As someone who is steeped in a Waldorf-y community herself, with a 5 year old who can also spend hours non-stop watching TV, here's what has been helpful for me...

Sandra suggesting on this list (to me) that I consider my family as my community rather than the larger group of Waldorf-y families we know is a helpful place to start as it shifts the focus home.

Really spending time and observing my 5 year old's behavior while watching her shows helps me think about what she is really gaining. In our situation, I think she is learning about friendships, family relationships (Berenstain Bears) as well as science (Cat in the Hat, Magic School Bus), logic (Busytown Mysteries), song, dance and storytelling (Backyardigans). I like to see what makes her laugh and I like to have a vocabulary, references to her fave shows to connect with her in random conversation. Those references come in particularly handy in challenging moments when I can draw on a show reference to help us discuss something.

I have strong (negative) feelings about my 5 year old watching TV for hours on end, but I also see this as my need to let go of control. I had a relatively easy time of it with sugar and she regularly chooses more nutritious options. She has been getting over a bug and asked for a cookie and I told her that sugar will make it harder for her to get well, but it's her body and her choice. She opted not to have the cookie and hasn't asked for one since as she's still recovering. She mentioned this fact to me tonight and I reminded her that it's her choice and that I wanted to give her the information so that she can make an informed choice. I told her that if it was really important to her, to have the cookie, that's her choice, too. She made no further comment and said that she wanted to go to bed.

I know that removing the limit creates the opportunity for my daughter to trust herself to make (hopefully good) choices. If her choice were life-threatening (like crossing into traffic) I would stop her, because I am here to help keep her safe and to provide guidance as needed. I figure life is full of grey areas and she will learn to navigate those things better and sooner with trust and guidance from someone who can appreciate her perspective (me, I hope)!

From my travels, I recognize that sometimes you can't see how things are defined for oneself until you see it up against something different. In the case of food and TV, I think presenting different options at the same time helps the decision-making-learning process.

What this has looked like for my family is having sweets available alongside raw fruits, veggies, grains and proteins. Sandra's monkey platters are great examples of options. Tonight, both my girls asked for lollipops and after 2-3 licks, they each asked to put them away as we were on our way to dinner and they wanted to eat dinner, not the candy.

With regard to TV, I find doing an activity near the TV watcher can be a nice way to present another option. We played indoor bowling (next to the TV) with enpty toilet paper rolls and big rubber balls. My 2.5 year old was in heaven and my 5 year old kept score, added the numbers and set up the pins between turns. Another option for us has become the daily outing where we do something we are all excited to do. I do feel my 5 year old needs a lot of activity right now, so dancing with her while the Backyardigans are dancing is great. When we have an outing, I try to pick places where she can move freely. I don't know how (when or if) TV limits will leave our home as DH feels strongly that we need them. I almost got convinced when DD1 screamed and swatted at me the other day for suggesting we needed to turn off the TV and leave the house (we had an overdue library book to return). In thinking about DD1's position on it, I see that she is learning about so many things in an engaging, absorbing, stress-free way and I was taking that from her in that moment. I also could see that she needs more connection with me -- that I may be too comfortable leaving her with the TV while I do dishes, laundry, help DD2 get a nap.

Another thing I recognize is that the cumulative hours and thoughtfulness grown adults put into a single show is exponentially higher than what one Waldorf-trained teacher can put into the same amount of time in a Waldorf class. Consider that the other students in a class would be roughly the same maturity level so learning from other peers is limited to small variations in maturity. The chances of learning something of great interest or that would really help a child learn that next valuable step toward adulthood is slim in a classroom. Granted, the adults involved in making a children's program may or may not be telling stories that are helpful, but there is a breadth of options in shows! A child can't choose her teacher!

Ceci

Sandra Dodd

-=-we lifted tv restrictions about a month and a half ago and my dd has been watching a lot. some days 7 or 8 hours at a sitting-=-

I'm changing the direction of this a little bit.
On whose advice did you "lift tv restrictions"?

If you were limiting or disallowing it, and you went straight from that to "whatever," it might have been more than you could handle, let alone your daughter. And if you said "Now you can watch all the TV you want!" (I don't know how it was announced or how the change came about), that prevented you from saying "Yes" a hundred happy times. Now if you say "no," you're going against your word.

So if you came to that idea on your own (lift restrictions) please go back to that source and ask her to write to me, or ask her to recommend a more gradual change from now on. You joined this list September 20. I think that's a good idea, joining this list. :-) But a month and a half ago, you made a sudden, extreme change.

http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
It's too late for TV, but not too late for other things you're not worried about yet. :-) Keep it in mind, and maybe pass it back to the place where someone recommended you "lift restrictions" all of a sudden.

Still, you can make this work. Now your opportunity to be kind to her over and over lies in bringing her food, laughing at the funny parts, singing along with her when she sings the songs. She LOVES movies? Don't be the enemy of her new team. Don't let the movies be sweeter to her than you are. Movies can be VERY sweet, all smiley and happy and funny. So you need to be those things, too.
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child

At school, traditionally and very often, windows are masked somehow. Lower windows will be painted over, or covered with paper and kids' art. That's not so art can be displayed. It's so kids can't see out the window. I remember classrooms both ways. I remember looking out at bare trees and the mountains, or at another school, at the parked cars and the road near the school. Or on the other side, the parking lot. But more often than not, I remember the desks being turned so that the windows were behind us, or the windows made non-transparent one way or another. That way, the teacher had a better chance at being the most interesting thing on the kid's horizon.

With unschooling, children SHOULD be able to look out the window, literally and figuratively. If the mom isn't more interesting than a game or a movie, that's fine. She shouldn't need to compete.

If the child is learning, then unschooling is working.
If the child is having a fun time, is in a safe, peaceful environment, then unschooling is working (and she's learning).

If the parent is the most dangerous, least peaceful thing in the environment, then unschooling isn't working very well because that parent has not deschooled. Deschooling will take twenty times longer for you than for your daughter; maybe more.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

Recovering from all your years of school will be difficult, so start now!

-=- they feel strongly that children's imaginative play should unfold without the nasty influence of media and are doing their best to protect their kids from these influences-=-

I hope "nasty" was their word and not yours. If you call "nasty" what your daughter likes, you will be looking at her through nasty-colored glasses. That's not even a nice word, "nasty."

I always did my best to protect my kids from people who thought everyday things were "nasty."

-=- i spent my early 20s meditating in a zen monastery in japan--the awareness of the present moment is a very real experience for me. the belief that there is a clear seeing eye in each of us, in every moment, is a strong belief for me. -=-

Prove it. Trust that your daughter has a clear seeing eye.

If you had spent your early 20's as an olympic athlete, would you be pressuring your daughter in that direction?
If you had spent your early 20's as a classical musician, soloing with orchestras, would you be pressuring your daughter to learn violin or whatever?

It is a classic flaw in adults to try to create in their children the person they think they wish they had been. You started meditation later in life. How cool (for you yourself) if your daughter could start earlier!! BUT hey... she is not you.

-=-i see tv as a very
quick way to add layers onto that clear seeing eye, muddling the vision, separating us from our true selves. at the same time, i feel my own delusion in seeing things as good vs bad, and that by labeling tv as bad, i am weighing down the present moment of tv watching with idea of "bad". yet i don't know how to drop this negativity. that is why i am writing here.-=-

You seem to have your vision and your true self tied down by other people's messages about nasty, evil badness. I seriously doubt your daughter is nasty, evil or bad. I seriously doubt she's drawn to movies that encourage her to be nasty, evil or bad.

Sandra






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Sandra Dodd

Practical suggestions:

-=-my dd has been watching a lot. some days 7 or 8 hours at a sitting, sometimes broken up into 2 or 3 sittings of about 2 hours a piece-=-

Broken up by you? By her? Don't think of it as "sittings." Do you tell her to "sit"? Does she have the means to draw or play with toys while she's watching a movie? Do you take her food? Do you say "let's pause it a moment" if you need to talk to her, or if you want to see if she needs the bathroom, or does she know how to pause it to go to the bathroom?

In some families, pausing a movie is a danger, because it gets the mother's attention and she tries to keep the child from coming back to it. Don't be that mom. Help her. Facilitate her learning. Don't be an obstacle. Joyce wrote this recently:

http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2011/10/roadblock.html

-=-my negative thought patterns around the tv are that sitting still and having stories fed to you rather than living your own story, your own life, is a low form of existence. -=-

Storytelling is present in all cultures, and has been as far back as anyone knows. Being a storyteller is not "a low form of existence." Living life without stories, music, characters, music and art is an unnatural form of existence. Even Japanese monks have stories with characters and morals, right?

-=- that the pace, music, and storylines of tv/movies are seductive and draw attention away from the present moment, from our own lives. -=-

If she's listening to music, that IS the present moment of her own life.
If she's hearing a story and thinking about what she might do if she were in that situation, that IS her own life, her own thoughts, her own development as a full, rich person. Not a thin person who doesn't know more than she can see with the tv off, with the windows blocked.

The storylines of movies can often be analyzed in the same way as folktales can, with the type and motif indexes. In anthropology, that is where traditional stories and ballads intersect religion and psychology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne%ef%bf%bdThompson_classification_system
Stories are made up of motifs. Characters and actions. Jungian archetypes, and stock characters (youngest son, step-daughter, king, peasant) in situations, with different outcomes depending on the other motifs at play. Maybe you can read up on that while your daughter watches movies in peace.

-=-a part of the problem for me is that we live on a beautiful island in the pacific northwest and i have yet to meet another real, live radical unschooling family. -=-

If you believed strongly in Waldorf schools and Steinerism, you might take a trip to visit one. Maybe you should take a trip to meet some unschoolers. There will be a conference near you in May:
http://lifeisgoodconference.com/

-=- i feel like an in-the-closet unschooler, unable to discuss my unschooling process with them, while at the same time hearing their views against tv, second-guessing myself, and feeling embarassed when my dd brings up She-Ra (a favorite she discovered on netflix) at playdates. perhaps i need to step away from these connections, at least until i become more confident in my decisions.-=-

The hardest situations I've ever seen for unschoolers was if one family is surrounded by fundamentalist Christians who are into making their kids say "yes ma'am" to anything (no matter how goofy), and into spanking, and hand-slapping, and shaming. At least you're with peaceniks. And IF, just if, they turn non-peaceful over something like a mention of She-Ra, maybe they're not as peaceful as they'd like to think they are. If they're depending on one class of imaginary magical being (elves or fairies or whatever is in Steiner's Black-Forest-for-children) while vilifying and fearing another imaginary magical being, that's magically hypocritical.

-=- it is their very division of the world into good and bad that i find repelling and yet am somehow drawn to, and then question whether or not i, too, should be more moral and restrict influences that might muddy the clarity of my childrens' minds and beings.-=-

They've not only muddied the clarity of their children's minds and beings, they've added a THICK layer of superstitious bullshit about which colors a child must paint with in which order, and the idea that playing the recorder (which I play and like; it's not an anti-recorder prejudice here) is moral and virtuous, but playing an electric keyboard is immoral, wrong, dangerous for a child.

-=- but i miss being with her, doing things together, carrying on a conversation, and watching in awe at how beautifully she moves through the world.-=-

I miss carrying Marty around. He was THE sweetest baby to carry on my hip. He had white-blond hair and quietly observed everything. I miss Holly loving My Little Ponies. It's normal and natural for moms to remember wistfully all the stages of a child's life. I'm wistful now about puberty and teen years. What is not natural or good (although it is normal) is for parents to attempt to thwart their children's growth so that the parent feels better.

When your daughter really trusts that she can choose to watch TV or not, and then change her mind again without having to hear a bunch of noise about it, THEN (and only then, and not until then) she will sometimes choose to do things with you, to be with you, to have conversations. She will choose you when the choices are equal, when she misses you, when she trusts you, when she needs you. Right now, she might need you mostly to make sure she can get to more videos. :-) Don't resent that. Revel in that.

In 2031... none of us know what the world will be like or what would have been good preparation for that. I'm pretty sure, though, that watching youtube will be better preparation than living in Waldorf-World, hiding from culture and progress and technology.

When you feel negativity, instead of running a long, long bunch of noise through your head, think "Is she learning?" and "Is she happy?"

Sandra






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Joy

My kids love this series of DVD: all classic stories just like the books but added narrative and animation, which I think very nice

Also I help to set up some coloring pages (can be related to what they are watching) or other craft they can do while they are watching. My son likes working on his Lego at the same time.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002PTBSE6?ie=UTF8&force-full-site=1
>

Hope that helps

Joy

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Rippy Dusseldorp

Probably the thing that helped me the most was remembering the excitement and delight I felt as a child whenever there was a new episode of my favourite show. My favourite show, Super Friends, was on super early on Sunday mornings in Canada and my brothers and I would ask for an alarm clock so we wouldn't miss it.

I had a positive view of television most of my life, but I ended up having a very negative view as soon as I became a parent. Once I started unschooling, I started to unravel this with the help of this list. I wanted for my children to have the same joyful relationship to television that I had had.

I started to say yes to Gianluca and Gisele more often. In the beginning it was sometimes uncomfortable and there with a bit of fear and agitation on my part. I watched with them and witnessed them learning, being relaxed and happy. My yeses have become more relaxed and comfortable with more experience and practice.

It helped me to connect to what they were experiencing when watching television - happiness, joy, delight, learning, engagement, rather than what I was experiencing - fear, worry, guilt, dread.

Another thing that helped was watching old episodes of Super Friends and my other favourite, Mr. Dressup, on you tube with Gianluca and Gisele. I am amazed at how engaging, thoughtful and well made the shows are. Both shows are from the 1970s and the children love them. It is lovely to share with them my childhood memories of play and games that my brothers and I invented from watching these shows.

Rippy
(Gianluca 6, Gisele 5)

Meredith

teresa regan <teresaaregan@...> wrote:
>(she loves movies and doesn't want to budge even when i offer other enticing activities)
***************

If you're trying to entice her while she's already busy, it's perfectly natural for her to want to hold on tighter to what she's doing. If you did that to an adult, it would be called * interrupting* and it's rude for a reason - it makes it harder for the person being interrupted to focus and enjoy what he or she is doing. Every time you interrupt your child from doing something previously limited you reset the deschooling clock to zero. If you're afraid of the "effects" of tv, that turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy - you see a child who "always" wants to watch tv because you're seeing a child who doesn't trust that she can watch what she wants when she wants without being hassled.

>>some days 7 or 8 hours at a sitting, sometimes broken up into 2 or 3 sittings of about 2 hours a piece.
****************

Shift your perspective a little - she has a fantastic attention span! That! for people who say little kids can't focus for any length of time or that tv disrupts a child's attention. Yours can focus for eight hours! That's great. My daughter also likes to do things in big chunks of time. A couple hours is a little bit of time for her to work on something - it can take her an hour to really settle in. When she's busy with a project she can be at it pretty much all day. When that "project" is taking in a new movie or show, she'll watch most of the day.

>> my negative thought patterns around the tv are that sitting still...

Are there other things to do in the same room? A mini-trampoline? A sit-n-spin? One of those big balls with the handle to bounce on? A skateboard so she can roll back and forth while she watches? Even in a little house there are ways to set a child up with physical activity indoors, in the same room with the tv so she isn't having to choose between intellectual and physical stimulation.

>>...and having stories fed to you rather than living your own story...

You mean like reading books or telling fairy tales?

It helped me, when thinking about kids and tv and creativity, to think about how all kinds of artists and craftspeople learn to do what they do. They start by looking at the work of other artists and copying them. A classical arts education has students do it deliberately, but given the chance to choose what and how to learn, its utterly natural for children to start by paying close attention and then copying what they see.

When Mo was around 7, she would sometimes offer to "make art" for people. Her usual drawing or paper-cutting artwork was often based on tv shows or books, or involved elaborate stories but when she "made art" for people it was something else. She copied what she saw as "children's art" - and if you can imagine a stereotypical child's drawing of a house and tree, a rainbow, a flower, you'll get what I mean. Even the way she drew lines was different than her usual. She had figured out what adults wanted her to draw. It was interesting to me because it really seemed to highlight the way adults push children to only draw ideas from a very small pool and call that "encouraging creativity".

>> but i miss being with her, doing things together, carrying on a conversation, and watching in awe at how beautifully she moves through the world.
*****************

Learn to watch in awe when she's engaged and fascinated, even if you're not engaged by and fascinated in the same things. Kids don't always share your loves and dreams - that's another kind of gift, if you're willing to accept it, the gift of an opportunity to expand your mind and heart and stretch your expectations. You can't give your child the childhood you wish you'd had because she's not you. What you can do is see her as herself and offer her the childhood She wants right now.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

The box on the right-hand side of this page has something Pam Sorooshian wrote about her daughter, Rosie.

http://sandradodd.com/parents

It will help with anyone who is undecided or agitated about supporting, accepting, sharing a child's odd interests.
Rosie will be speaking at the ALL Unschooling Symposium in December. She will speak Friday afternoon, December 30, on "Things I Have Learned." Then she will moderate a panel of other young adults who were unschooled

http://alwayslearninglive.blogspot.com/p/speakers.html

If anyone has ever doubted the things Pam has written, meet one of her kids.
If you want to put faces and voices, posture and a smile to some of the regular contributors of this list, and if you can make it to Albuquerque, come on. (Maybe a quickie vacation as a Christmas-or-whatever gift...)


Sandra

Herb

-=-that the human mind wasn't designed to be taking in information and stimulation
at the pace the tv spits it out, that the optimal level of stimulation is found
in a natural setting, therefore we should be outside more or doing any other
activities that keep our minds in the "real" time of the present moment.-=-

This reminded me of some of the nature shows my kids and I watch. David Attenborough.....The Life Series, is probable our favorite. I saw so many animals that I would have never seen without television. Some of them live in other parts of the world, some are very elusive, some I might get a quick glimpse of but can't see in detail, many move too fast. On the television I see bird dances slowed down so that I can see the intricate movements, hummingbirds slowed wing movement, chrysalises being formed and butterflies emerging, insect feeding, bee dances or the opposite time lapse filming of spider webs being formed, a tree losing it's leaves and birds nest being built, etc. There was a show that filmed things with a very high speed camera and then slowed it down. They would take suggestions. It could be something like a balloon popping, an explosion, water drops falling into oil etc. I could list thousands of things that I've seen slowed down that happen in real life. A natural setting is very fast paced and sometimes we need technology to slow it down to see what is happening. I love seeing nature in real life and so do my kids, but it can be too fast to take in and sometimes it's nice to see it slowed down on the television to see what's really happening. I can then go back out into nature and appreciate what I won't ever be able to see because of the fast pace out there.


-=- the belief that there is a
clear seeing eye in each of us, in every moment, is a strong belief for me.
that this remain clear and present is something i am giving my life to
attending to and i see tv as a very
quick way to add layers onto that clear seeing eye, muddling the vision,
separating us from our true selves. -=-

Why can't a clear seeing eye be enhanced by television..like glasses and binoculars can do? I can think of so many things I've learned from and seen on television that have added to my knowledge of the world and life. I've been entertained, informed, amused, amazed and laughed while watching television. I just don't feel separate from my true self with television and feel that I understand or see many things more clearly.

-=-at the same time, i feel my own delusion in
seeing things as good vs bad, and that by labeling tv as bad, i am weighing down
the present moment of tv watching with idea of "bad". yet i don't know how to
drop this negativity. that is why i am writing here.-=-

I don't see things as good vs. bad. I often see both in everything and that has it's own dilemmas. You already have your bad list for TV, maybe you should make a good list. That might move you more towards the center with a more balanced approach.
I think it would benefit you if you actively searched for TV/video programs that you find interesting that your daughter would also enjoy. There are tons of things to choose from that would interest an adult and a child. At the age of 5 my daughter if left by herself might have chosen to watch only shows made specifically for children. I introduced her to the Attenborough films and she loved those. My husband laughs at movies like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. I don't get them, but I like my husband to watch those with the kids. They get more out of them that way and so do I. They are watching with someone that likes that kind of humor. I really feel that television is best experienced with others and would encourage you to participate with your child.

Programs on television are created by artist, some better than others. When you get great story tellers together with great visual artists and great musicians then it's a very enjoyable experience. I like to be exposed to that art and like it for my children as well.

I saw shadow puppet shows in Indonesia. I think the shows are just as fast paced and dramatic as television and the gamelong music adds to the excitement. You might want to think of television programs as a modern puppet show with all the great stories, visual artistry and music. There is some really great music that I've bought that was used for the background music in movies, shows. My son use to listen to music from Pokemon on his ipod.


-=- it is their very division of the world into good and bad that i find repelling
and yet am somehow drawn to, and then question whether or not i, too, should be
more moral and restrict influences that might muddy the clarity of my childrens'
minds and beings.-=-

I don't understand this thinking. If you limit information that comes to your children, then how can they be clear in their minds and beings. If I only have 1/2 of the available information, knowledge, see the world from a limited perspective then I have no clarity. I would have less clarity of the natural world, of different world cultures, less knowledge of US mainstream culture, of cartoon art, cooking techniques, music, world conflict and many other things if it were not for television.

-=-another tough part for me is that i feel disconnected from my daughter when she
watches tv. i watch some with her, but my 5 month old doesn't want to sit still
in that way. we live in a small studio house, so i can always hear what is
going on in the shows, she runs to tell me things, and i'll interject questions
occasionally. but i miss being with her, doing things together, carrying on a
conversation, and watching in awe at how beautifully she moves through the
world.-=-

Sometimes I will see a program that my children use to love, something we watched many times together. We will talk about the program, what we liked about watching it. They don't remember liking Teletubbies and can't figure out what they would have liked about the show. I remember the days we spent together laughing. They made me laugh because of the kick they got out of the show. It's not always possible to watch everything with your kids, but I try to watch as much as possible with them. I wanted to share the experience with them, to have common references and jokes. I didn't use the television to entertain, so that I could get something done. I would encourage you to spend more time watching what your daughter likes, so that you get what she loves about the shows. You could also find shows that might appeal more to you and tell her what you enjoyed about it. A 5 month old will keep you busy but you could try to be in the same room with both kids when the 5 month old is awake. I often watched TV while my youngest slept in my lap. Maybe you could choose a special show to watch with your daughter. There are some really great nature films about Japan. I saw one recently about insects and the love the Japaneese have for them. Pokemon came out of Japan. Look up Satoshi Tajiri. His idea for Pokemon came from his insect collecting. I'm thinking your knowledge of Japan is something you can share with your daughter and might help you appreciate what television can offer and how it can help you stay connect with her. You can find films of Andy Goldsworthy. He's an artist that works with nature. There is a film about his art called Rivers and Tides that might appeal to you and your daughter. I know my daughter liked watching and looking at his art. I probably originally saw the film on PBS, but it's available thru Netflix or you can check out short film on youtube of his work.

The things you miss about being close to your daughter might not have to do with TV, but more to do with a second child. When I had my second child the TV situation wasn't different but the time I had to be total with my older child changed. The more you can be with her doing and seeing what she enjoys will help you feel more connected.

I found that many of the children shows are on during the day. I wanted to make sure my kids got outside to move around, got vitamin D, experience the weather etc. I taped shows or worked around the times when their favorites were on. We often watched PBS when they were little, but as they got older and watched commercial stations it was nice to fast forward through the commercials. That also might help you feel more connect to your 5 year old without her missing a program she loves.

Meg





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Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't see things as good vs. bad. I often see both in everything and that has it's own dilemmas. -=-

Without knowing where one wants to go, and without seeing which things will get them there and which will hamper, it's impossible to "make the better choice."

I like to think of unschooling as learning from the real world all around. Some people prefer an artificially limited world, a kind of fantasy world styled on an imaginary, idealized version of Little House on the Prairie, or a peace-and-love hippie commune, or some other vision the parents are working to create. I don't consider those to be the real world. A child born in 2005 (or anywhere give or take ten years) needs to live and learn in the early 21st century, because he or she is likely to be living in the mid 21st century after a bunch of us who are reading and writing here are dead. Preparing a child for the 20th century, or the 19th century, or for a fantasy life, isn't very good unschooling. It's not very good living, in my opinion.

And I know fantasy. I have a whole wardrobe and persona as AElflaed of Duckford, a medieval Lady from England married to a Norseman. It's not that I don't have a clue about dressing up and playing. It's that I've always known the difference between that and my real self in my real time.

When anyone's fears involve a fantasy world (fundamentalist Christians "take back" the U.S., or Waldorf-world), I don't want to help condone that. The choice there is between clear reality and constructed, revisionist history.

Sandra




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Herb

-=-I almost got convinced when DD1 screamed and swatted at me the other day for suggesting we needed to turn off the TV and leave the house (we had an overdue library book to return). In thinking about DD1's position on it, I see that she is learning about so many things in an engaging, absorbing, stress-free way and I was taking that from her in that moment.-=-

-=-another tough part for me is that i feel disconnected from my daughter when she
watches tv. i watch some with her, but my 5 month old doesn't want to sit still
in that way. we live in a small studio house, so i can always hear what is
going on in the shows, she runs to tell me things, and i'll interject questions
occasionally. but i miss being with her, doing things together, carrying on a
conversation, and watching in awe at how beautifully she moves through the
world.-=-


Above are two paragraphs from two different posts. I'm sure I could find many more statements attributing a negative experience to television. They were interesting to me and stood out, because it made me realize how TV is looked to as the cause when there is something undesirable happening. In both cases, I didn't see the TV as the problem, but it's easy to blame.

Referring to the first one....If I pulled my kids away from something they were engaged in and very much enjoying the response would be negative. My son would have been very unhappy to leave a park when he was young to go on an errand of my choosing. He might have acted out and might have swatted at me. It's not the TV, but the situation.

Referring to the second....It was written by a woman with a 5 yo and 5 month old. I had lots of time to spend one-on-one with my daughter before my son was born. I felt less close to her and felt less connected once my son was born. This was because of the time a young child takes. It not the same any more. I couldn't be totally focused on my daughter. I wasn't able to spend all my time with her watching, listening and doing as before. I don't see the distance/disconnect being created by the TV but by adding a young child into the mix.

This was also written by someone that doesn't enjoy television and is not spending the one-on-one time with her daughter enjoying what she enjoys. I feel connected with my kids as we have watch television...we laugh together, feel sad together, get disgusted, share feelings and thoughts etc.

I don't see the TV as the problem in either of these situations, but it becomes the scape goat. If the TV is seen as the problem and it's not, then the real cause of the problem will not be solved.
Meg






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Sandra Dodd

-=-Referring to the second....It was written by a woman with a 5 yo and 5 month old. I had lots of time to spend one-on-one with my daughter before my son was born. I felt less close to her and felt less connected once my son was born. This was because of the time a young child takes. It not the same any more. I couldn't be totally focused on my daughter. I wasn't able to spend all my time with her watching, listening and doing as before. I don't see the distance/disconnect being created by the TV but by adding a young child into the mix.-=-

This is a good point.

Speaking as a firstborn child, I was three and some, and my sister came along, my mom seemed not to love me anymore, nor even to like me. In later years, she said so--that she favored my sister because my dad favored me. Only my dad worked long hours, and I was home with my mom and my sister, who was demanding and often ill.

I needed friendly faces and friendly voices, so I'm glad TV had been invented. It wasn't in color, and it wasn't very good, but it was nicer than my mom. Touch might have been nice, too, but my mom was a spanker and a swatter.

If for an hour or even for twenty minutes a television provides input, language, music, art to a child, that's not a bad thing.

Sandra

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kristi_beguin

"Rippy Dusseldorp" wrote:
>>>I had a positive view of television most of my life, but I ended up having a very negative view as soon as I became a parent.<<<

I, too, had a positive view of television while growing up. When we were about 21, my husband and I jumped onto the "Kill Your Television" bandwagon. The concept was popular amongst many college students and friends of ours at the time (around 1991/1992). A dear friend and roommate at the time, was extremely anti-TV, and often would rant about how the TV was responsible for the brainwashing of our generation. His arguments were that TV fuels racism, capitalism, ignorance, consumerism, and leads to an inability to think for oneself. In his mind, TV is a tool used to keep the masses blind to the corruption and conspiracy of government, the wealthy, and those in power.

Thankfully, many years and situations later, and by the time my oldest daughter was about 3, my husband and I had shed these ideas, which are based on fear.

>>>my negative thought patterns around the tv are that sitting still and having stories fed to you rather than living your own story, your own life, is a low form of existence.<<<

Children have sat and listened to stories forever. Think about when you were a child and were being read a story, or watched a movie. You were still living your own life in those moments. Your brain and body were present, listening, and working all the while. Just because a story is coming through an electronic device does not make it "lower" (in what, value? Morals?) than if it were being told through the mouth of a live person.

>>>that the pace, music, and storylines of tv/movies are seductive and draw attention away from the present moment, from our own lives.<<<

Whether one is actively focused on paying attention to the present moment, such as through meditating, or actively paying attention to a show or movie conveyed through the TV, does not mean that they are being seduced away from the present. If I am meditating, I am making a conscious effort to focus on my breath or whatever, and I may do so for 10 minutes, or 30 minutes, but not all day every day, all the time. It's not practical. If I am watching Big Love, I am very much living in that present moment of taking in everything that is going on so I have a clear understanding of each and every twist that is taking place in the story.

>>> that the optimal level of stimulation is found in a natural setting, therefore we should be outside more or doing any other activities that keep our minds in the "real" time of the present moment.<<<

Optimal for who? In the 21st century, our setting includes cars, freeways, trains, airplanes, and rockets. The "real" time of the present moment is sometimes traveling at speeds higher than 200 mph.

>>>i spent my early 20s meditating in a zen monastery in japan--the awareness of the present moment is a very real experience for me.<<<

When I was 22, I took a college program called "Ecology, Awareness, and Exposure." I attended the Evergreen State College, an alternative school located in Olympia, WA. My professor designed this course to include lichen biology, meditation, and rock climbing. At the start of the program we all attended a 12-day silent meditation at a Vipassana meditation center. We were told to leave all books, electronics, and journals at home. We meditated for 2-hour intervals, 5 times a day, with periods of silent observation in between meals and sleeping. We were not allowed to make eye-contact with our fellow students or to talk amongst each other. I very quickly needed a way to process my discomfort and observations, so I would take (sneak) my pen into a quiet corner and write my thoughts on paper grocery bags I had found in a utility closet. That was how I was best able to make sense of the wild dreams, extreme discomfort, and emotional responses I was having to this exercise. For those 12 days, I experienced an enhanced level of personal and observational awareness as a result of being isolated from the "real world" and being at a meditation center.

But awareness of the present moment doesn't just go away when one is living life outside of a meditation center or a zen monastery. It sounds to me like you are worried that somehow the presence of the TV in your home and life will disintegrate your ability to be aware of the present. The present is, and always is, right now. It's up to you to decide whether you are going to spend your present moments tangling up your thoughts on the goodness or badness of TV, or junk food, and your ideal of how you wish you and your daughter were spending your time, or whether you can clearly be present with your daughter no matter what the two of you are doing.

>>> i see tv as a very quick way to add layers onto that clear seeing eye, muddling the vision, separating us from our true selves.<<<

That idea is based on the same fear that I described above, the kind of fear my friend has about the TV--that the TV is going to somehow cause him to become ignorant and susceptible to fall prey to government and corruption. Because you are talking about clarity, maybe you would benefit from thinking clearly about where your own fears are coming from. How would TV add muddling layers to your clear seeing eye? How will it separate you from your true self?

I suggest this because I think it's a concept buried under a fear of being manipulated. People who rant about TV being bad, fear that somehow this thing, this electronic form of communication, is going to influence their desires, change their motivations, undermine their ability to make conscientious decisions, and force them to become someone other than who they are "meant to be." But if you are a mindful, conscientious person, can that inanimate electronic device really have that much power over you?

>>> a part of the problem for me is that we live on a beautiful island in the pacific northwest and i have yet to meet another real, live radical unschooling family. the community we do have was formed through the Waldorf school that dd attended for four months last year. these healthy-living folks are super against tv and "junk" food. they feel strongly that children's imaginative play should unfold without the nasty influence of media and are doing their best to protect their kids from these influences (hence moving to an island with a quaint waldorf school on it).<<<

Your island sounds lovely. It can be challenging to find people you get along with and share ideals and beliefs with. I have several dear friends who are anti-TV, or who are very controlling of it with their kids. The majority of people I know are anti-"junk food" as well. If we are out with these friends, and my kid asks for a soda and I give them one, the general feeling I get is one of, "Oh great...you just allowed your kid to have a soda, so now I'm going to have to deal with my kid asking me for one and me saying no."

It is very possible that these people are not actually scrutinizing you and your choices, and in fact, they may be feeling the same way you do. I've noticed that people who get caught up in dogma such as Waldorf philosophy, often spend a huge amount of time trying to resolve the difference between what sounds all cool and right with the philosophy and what actually feels right in their own heart or works in their own home. The dogma sets people up to fail, and because of this constant need to not fail, people end up being hypercritical of others in an effort to determine how much they are failing versus someone else.

>>>i feel like an in-the-closet unschooler, unable to discuss my unschooling process with them, while at the same time hearing their views against tv, second-guessing myself, and feeling embarassed when my dd brings up She-Ra (a favorite she discovered on netflix) at playdates. perhaps i need to step away from these connections, at least until i become more confident in my decisions.<<<

If any of these people are those you would consider good friends, or a possible good friend, maybe it would be valuable to discuss your process with them. If you feel particularly close to someone, confide in them your struggles. Not only may you discover that they are going through the same thing, but possibly you'll have new unschoolers on your island working through these things right along with you.

Sandra Dodd

-=-A dear friend and roommate at the time, was extremely anti-TV, and often would rant about how the TV was responsible for the brainwashing of our generation. His arguments were that TV fuels racism, capitalism, ignorance, consumerism, and leads to an inability to think for oneself. In his mind, TV is a tool used to keep the masses blind to the corruption and conspiracy of government, the wealthy, and those in power.-=-

So he brainwashed you, and because he was a friend and roommate, there was no off switch, no mute, no channel-changing. :-)

-=-Just because a story is coming through an electronic device does not make it "lower" (in what, value? Morals?) than if it were being told through the mouth of a live person. -=-

http://sandradodd.com/video/
There are some videos of me and Holly. She's sitting at the table with me right this moment. It's 11:27 a.m. November 18 at our house. We're live people. :-)

If someone watches Hamlet, are those live people? Hamlet is a really cool story, and a great play, and traditions about how to play the parts and how to stage certain things have been passed down for a few hundred years. That is COOL!! So you're watching live people channelling dead people (and playing dead people).

Those videos up there...
If something happens to me and Holly, you'll be hearing things from the mouths of people who no longer can speak. That is WAY, way cool. Video of speeches of people who aren't around anymore is fascinating.

Because of video, Robyn Coburn got to see her father, after he was no longer living.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2011/10/i-love-internet.html

Kristi, if you're still friends with that guy who was living more in a TV-based world than I ever have (if it was worth basing his life on, and ranting about) maybe send him that link and see if he softens up.

Sandra

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kristi_beguin

>>>Kristi, if you're still friends with that guy who was living more in a TV-based world than I ever have (if it was worth basing his life on, and ranting about) maybe send him that link and see if he softens up.<<<

Great idea! We are still very close friends, and he now has a 1.5 year old daughter. He is an electrician, and he did all the electrical in our house when we rebuilt after losing our first one in a wildfire. The other day he came over to help us rewire our satellite TV and internet cable connections. When I told him that I wanted to make sure that both my girls had TV and internet connections in their room he sucked it up enough to not huff and puff about TV in kids' rooms, but rolled his eyes and gave my husband a look of "are you serious?" But he did it, and he did it for free.

His partner has been asking me a lot about homeschooling and unschooling, so there is a possibility that they may choose to not send their daughter to school in the future. Maybe, with your video link, and the help of yours and others' websites, the root ball of his TV opinions can start to loosen now, so they will be easier to unearth when his baby is a little older and more interested in TV, movies, etc.

Thank you.

Karen

--- In [email protected], teresa regan <teresaaregan@...> wrote:

> my negative thought patterns around the tv are that sitting still and having stories fed to you rather than living your own story, your own life, is a low form of existence.  that the pace, music, and storylines of tv/movies are seductive and draw attention away from the present moment, from our own lives...  

>i spent my early 20s meditating in a zen monastery in japan--the awareness of the present moment is a very real experience for me.  the belief that there is a clear seeing eye in each of us, in every moment, is a strong belief for me.  that this remain clear and present is something i am giving my life to attending to and i see tv as a very quick way to add layers onto that clear seeing eye, muddling the vision, separating us from our true selves.  

I deeply respect Pema Chodron. She is a buddhist nun in the Tibetan tradition. I have read several of her books, and have seen her speak. Her words and perspective have helped me grow as a person.

Recently, I heard her talk about what she perceived to be a negative trait in our society - our attraction to media and technology. She spoke of riding on an airplane and seeing everyone with their phones, laptops, music devices, readers and headphones. She said she felt it was all too stimulating. She called it a buzz. She pondered why people felt too uncomfortable to just sit with themselves for those hours on the plane. I listened to her speak and pondered with her.

Not long after, my family and I took a plane ride across the country. One of the flights was about six hours. I had Pema's story about her recent plane experience in my mind as I sat, and I took time to observe the people around me. Indeed everyone was busy, and most had some sort of technological device. Many were wearing headphone.

But, I didn't see what Pema saw. I didn't see a buzz. Instead, I saw people engaged and making themselves as comfortable as they could while sitting in close conditions. If children were uncomfortable a movie could be played either on someone's laptop or overhead. The person in the next row could put on headphones to mask the sounds. People could catch up on reading with books, computers or portable readers. People could play games online or on paper. There were a lot more choices, and people seemed relatively content.

I remember riding on a plane when I was young. Back then, many of the adults smoked to pass the time. A fair number had alcohol drinks. Some had too much to drink. Children were restless and often screaming. Thankfully, at some point we were served food. That was a blessing, as it helped pass the time. In contrast to our recent trip, this was very different scene.

So, considering that I hold Pema Chodron in high regard, why didn't I wholeheartedly embrace her version of the world with regards to technology? I think unschooling has helped me understand that I don't have to completely embrace someone else's version of reality, even if it is someone I respect. In school, we are given information from a teacher. We are taught to believe that teacher holds the truth. We accept his or her words without question as a result. In unschooling, we are given information from many sources. No one person holds all the answers. Because of this, we make our own truth based on how we make sense of all of these connections.

Pema has something to offer me, but so does tv, video games, books, the internet, my neighbours, movies, and that sweet lady at the restaurant we like to go to. My reality is rich and diverse now, and I feel closer to clarity as a result.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Not long after, my family and I took a plane ride across the country. One of the flights was about six hours. I had Pema's story about her recent plane experience in my mind as I sat, and I took time to observe the people around me. Indeed everyone was busy, and most had some sort of technological device. Many were wearing headphone.

-=-But, I didn't see what Pema saw. I didn't see a buzz. Instead, I saw people engaged and making themselves as comfortable as they could while sitting in close conditions. If children were uncomfortable a movie could be played either on someone's laptop or overhead. The person in the next row could put on headphones to mask the sounds. People could catch up on reading with books, computers or portable readers. People could play games online or on paper. There were a lot more choices, and people seemed relatively content.-=-

I flew Air France to India. It was a very long flight, and unusual (for me) in that there were lots of different languages being spoken, and there were people from very different religions and cultures, and various individuals who probably shouldn't be speaking casually to the opposite sex, and yet we were seated where they put us. It was crowded. The food was foreign to me, so probably much more foreign to some of the others.

On any flight, there are people who are afraid of being in the plane, and likely some who aren't happy to be going where they're going, or leaving where they left. Anything that can keep people distracted and calm seems a blessing to me--not just to them, but to the others near them.

Sandra

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MaryB

Hi,

I just have to say Thank You for putting another angle on TV and media in general.

I too have found myself wrestling with...the over use of all sorts of media, people being "plugged" in...but you gave me something to think about, another side to the story. I found myself torn with so many fears; do I restrict too much or do I restrict too little. Am I ruining my children by doing or not dong XY and Z.

I had fallen into the trap that someone I like, love or respects thoughts, ideas or beliefs must be pearls of wisdom I should cling to.

Thank you for reminding me of a quote that I must need to put up on the fridge again.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
~Aristotle~

Thank you

Mary



> But, I didn't see what Pema saw. I didn't see a buzz. Instead, I saw people engaged and making themselves as comfortable as they could while sitting in close conditions. If children were uncomfortable a movie could be played either on someone's laptop or overhead. The person in the next row could put on headphones to mask the sounds. People could catch up on reading with books, computers or portable readers. People could play games online or on paper. There were a lot more choices, and people seemed relatively content.
>
> I remember riding on a plane when I was young. Back then, many of the adults smoked to pass the time. A fair number had alcohol drinks. Some had too much to drink. Children were restless and often screaming. Thankfully, at some point we were served food. That was a blessing, as it helped pass the time. In contrast to our recent trip, this was very different scene.
>
> So, considering that I hold Pema Chodron in high regard, why didn't I wholeheartedly embrace her version of the world with regards to technology? I think unschooling has helped me understand that I don't have to completely embrace someone else's version of reality, even if it is someone I respect. In school, we are given information from a teacher. We are taught to believe that teacher holds the truth. We accept his or her words without question as a result. In unschooling, we are given information from many sources. No one person holds all the answers. Because of this, we make our own truth based on how we make sense of all of these connections.
>
> Pema has something to offer me, but so does tv, video games, books, the internet, my neighbours, movies, and that sweet lady at the restaurant we like to go to. My reality is rich and diverse now, and I feel closer to clarity as a result.
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I too have found myself wrestling with...the over use of all sorts of media, people being "plugged" in...-=-

This is where mindfulness and self-awareness will help.
"Over-use" defines it as "too much."

If you change it to "use" or "existence," then the "over..." isn't needling your brain.

Same with this phrase: "people being "plugged" in"
It's propaganda. Negative spin. You can't agree with it without feeling ashamed.

Rather than decide whether you like or will accept "over use" and "people being plugged in," change what you're calling them, the way you're defining them in your thoughts.

When people talk, think, write, about "junk food," the junk is all in their heads.

Same with anything else. If you have negativity and darkness and scorn in your head, you won't be able to think clearly about that topic.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity

Sandra




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Pamela Sorooshian

On Oct 24, 2011, at 9:12 AM, MaryB wrote:

> "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
> ~Aristotle~
*******

That is a really great quote for unschoolers (and other people, too). To entertain a thought - means to really seriously consider it, not to pretend you are considering it. For example, a friend said, "I thought about letting Johnny just watch all the tv he wanted, but I couldn't stand the idea of him becoming such a couch potato."

Those are not the words or thoughts of someone who is "entertaining a thought." Those are the words of someone pretending to do so while hanging onto preconceptions.

A good start to really "entertaining a thought" is to frame it in the best light possible. Remember, you don't have to accept it, in the end, and it won't hurt your child for you to think about it differently for a while - you can go back to thinking about it negatively if, in the end, that is what makes sense to you. Sandra inspired me a long time ago when she suggested "thinking dangerous thoughts." Try it with regard to television. Play a little "what if" game with yourself. Be brave. What if television is actually good for kids? Think about the ways that could be true? Truly entertain the thought - give it a true and honest appraisal? Pretend your former beliefs were completely wrong and you've just realized that and you are clarifying (for yourself) your thinking about it. You can't fool yourself. You'll know if you cheat and try to hang onto your pre-existing ideas. Let those go float away for a little while - as scary as it might be to do that. They will come right back if you call them. Promise.

We think in language and in visual images and in non-articulated concepts. The language we use in our thinking has a big influence on the images and the concepts - so be careful about that language that your are using inside your own head. A key word - a word to beware of - is "just." When you notice you're using that word, that can indicate a thought you should examine carefully - why are you inserting the word "just?" What does it do in that sentence? It usually discounts or diminishes something or indicates your feel you have no control or choice. So try to change the word "just" in your thoughts to be more clear about what you are really thinking. Insert some synonyms in its place. Leave it out entirely.

Other words or phrases to watch for (as you practice thinking dangerous thoughts) -- addicted, zombie-like, eyes "glued" to the tv, couch potato, and so on�.all those biased words and phrases prevent you from thinking/looking clearly at your own actual child and the reality of his/her experience. They put a veil between you and him/her and you see everything through that veil. Be brave and lift that veil out of the way and things will look clearer.

-pam



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teresa

i feel very grateful for all of the responses to my original post. the words and thoughts of those responses have helped me tremendously to examine my knee-jerk negative reaction to tv, helped me shake free many of my fears, and learn to enjoy my daughter enjoying movies. what a delightful way to expand my life, my heart, and my relationship with my daughter---thank you all!

one aspect of the recent responses i would like to add to is the one describing Pema chodron who gave a talk describing the buzz she felt was created on an airplane from people using technology.

>>>>>>>>>Recently, I heard her talk about what she perceived to be a negative trait in
our society - our attraction to media and technology. She spoke of riding on an
airplane and seeing everyone with their phones, laptops, music devices, readers
and headphones. She said she felt it was all too stimulating. She called it a
buzz. She pondered why people felt too uncomfortable to just sit with
themselves for those hours on the plane. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

i think this last sentence contains a question that is important to ask: why do people feel too uncomfortable to just sit with themselves for those hours on the plane? yes, we can use technology to distract ourselves from the discomforts of our surroundings and create a calm, and that is certainly a preferable alternative to drinking, smoking, yelling, and crying, which the writer said she experienced on flights of her childhood, in the pre-portable-technological-devices days. but what might another choice be? that is what pema is pointing to. it is rare for a person to feel a calmness that springs from within, no matter what the outer circumstances might be. as a spiritual teacher she is striving to help people realize that place for themselves. i have sat in many long international flights and not needed a movie, a book, or earphones to find calm. technological devices are wonderful inventions and we use them all the time to enrich and enliven our lives! but can we also be free not to use them, even in an uncomfortable situation, and feel a calmness and richness of another texture, springing from within? can we be free from needing them to keep us happy when we feel squished and antsy? this is partly what pema was talking about, i think.

what i am learning as an unschooling mother who has my own personal attraction to the spiritual aspect of life, is that i cannot force my daughter to know this place in herself. i can offer her my presence, i can offer her the suggestion to take a deep breath, or take a minute to herself to be still when she is angry. but it isn't by sheltering her or prohibiting the use of technology that will help her know her own inner light in choatic situations. it seems pema was saying that. and i think waldorf says that. that technology gets in the way. but it certainly doesn't! i am slowly learning that, through the help of this list, and it is extremely liberating to embrace my daughter's love for movies. her inner light is certainly shining out when she watches Barbie defeat the evil fairy queen! i can help her know that inner stillness by being in it myself, to be in it and enjoy whatever is going on, movies or no movies, airplane or no airplane, chaos or no chaos. and perhaps one day, if she choses, she may walk a path that helps her develop her self-awareness so that she can access that place in herself whenever she needs to, if SHE chooses.

thank you all for being here to help me sort this out.

teresa



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Not long after, my family and I took a plane ride across the country. One of the flights was about six hours. I had Pema's story about her recent plane experience in my mind as I sat, and I took time to observe the people around me. Indeed everyone was busy, and most had some sort of technological device. Many were wearing headphone.
>
> -=-But, I didn't see what Pema saw. I didn't see a buzz. Instead, I saw people engaged and making themselves as comfortable as they could while sitting in close conditions. If children were uncomfortable a movie could be played either on someone's laptop or overhead. The person in the next row could put on headphones to mask the sounds. People could catch up on reading with books, computers or portable readers. People could play games online or on paper. There were a lot more choices, and people seemed relatively content.-=-
>
> I flew Air France to India. It was a very long flight, and unusual (for me) in that there were lots of different languages being spoken, and there were people from very different religions and cultures, and various individuals who probably shouldn't be speaking casually to the opposite sex, and yet we were seated where they put us. It was crowded. The food was foreign to me, so probably much more foreign to some of the others.
>
> On any flight, there are people who are afraid of being in the plane, and likely some who aren't happy to be going where they're going, or leaving where they left. Anything that can keep people distracted and calm seems a blessing to me--not just to them, but to the others near them.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Rinelle

> From: "teresa" <teresaaregan@...>
> i think this last sentence contains a question that is important to ask:
> why do people feel too uncomfortable to just sit
> with themselves for those hours on the plane? yes, we can use technology
> to distract ourselves from the discomforts
> of our surroundings and create a calm, and that is certainly a preferable
> alternative to drinking, smoking, yelling, and
> crying, which the writer said she experienced on flights of her childhood,
> in the pre-portable-technological-devices
> days. but what might another choice be?

What is wrong with doing something you enjoy? Why does it need to be
labelled distracting yourself from the surroundings rather than just making
the flight more enjoyable? When I sit and play a game, read a book, or
watch a movie on my iPad, I'm doing it because I enjoy it. I'm doing it
because after a short while, I get bored sitting and doing nothing.

Everyone is free to sit and do nothing rather than finding something else to
do, but in order to be free to sit and do nothing, we must have the choice
to do something, otherwise it isn't freedom at all.

Tamara

Sandra Dodd

-=- but what might another choice be? that is what pema is pointing to. -=-

Becoming a nun or monk, as an adult. That's what Pema did. Not all people want that or can succeed in that life. Not all people consider a life like that to be a success or a good use of time.

http://sandradodd.com/intelligences

People talk about a spiritual intelligence, too, You can look it up pretty easily, but here's a quote:
------------------------------------
Since Howard Gardner's original listing of the intelligences in Frames of Mind (1983) there has been a great deal of discussion as to other possible candidates for inclusion (or candidates for exclusion). Subsequent research and reflection by Howard Gardner and his colleagues has looked to three particular possibilities: a naturalist intelligence, a spiritual intelligence and an existential intelligence. He has concluded that the first of these 'merits addition to the list of the original seven intelligences' (Gardner 1999: 52).

Naturalist intelligence enables human beings to recognize, categorize and draw upon certain features of the environment. It 'combines a description of the core ability with a characterization of the role that many cultures value' (ibid.: 48).
The case for inclusion of naturalist intelligence appears pretty straightforward, the position with regard to spiritual intelligence is far more complex. According to Howard Gardner (1999: 59) there are problems, for example, around the 'content' of spiritual intelligence, its privileged but unsubstantiated claims with regard to truth value, 'and the need for it to be partially identified through its effect on other people'. ------------------------------------

http://www.infed.org/thinkers/gardner.htm

If you as an adult have the urge to do what nuns do, it probably wasn't a good idea to have a child. But you do have a child, so that should be a priority. Children do NOT learn from quiet contemplation; they learn from playing, asking questions, having new experiences.

-=- it is rare for a person to feel a calmness that springs from within, no matter what the outer circumstances might be. as a spiritual teacher she is striving to help people realize that place for themselves.-=-

She's offering that help to people who want it. "Striving" makes it sound like she's working really hard, with frustration, because people won't cooperate. Offering is what she's doing. She's making that information available. People who aren't interested in it are only bad people if you yourself define what she does as superior to all other options.

-=- i have sat in many long international flights and not needed a movie, a book, or earphones to find calm. technological devices are wonderful inventions and we use them all the time to enrich and enliven our lives! but can we also be free not to use them, even in an uncomfortable situation, and feel a calmness and richness of another texture, springing from within? can we be free from needing them to keep us happy when we feel squished and antsy? this is partly what pema was talking about, i think.-=-

So you Do think it's superior. When you're on a flight not "needing" a movie, book or earphones, you're feeling superior to those around you? Maybe they're listening to Pema Chodron books. :-) Maybe they're on the way to a deathbed, and they're watching a comedy to keep their minds from spinning into a pit of sorrow and fear. Maybe they're reading Harry Potter for the first time. Perhaps their choices are better than yours, if yours involves feeling that they are inferior beings.

-=-but can we also be free not to use them...? can we be free from needing them...?-=-

Passengers are not required to listen to music or to read books on airplanes, so your questions aren't honest questions.

-=-what i am learning as an unschooling mother who has my own personal attraction to the spiritual aspect of life, is that i cannot force my daughter to know this place in herself. -=-

"Force"? "Strive"? Your language concerning peace is too harsh to be peaceful.

-=- perhaps one day, if she choses, she may walk a path that helps her develop her self-awareness-=-

That seems disdainful of paths other than your own favorite path. She might develop her own self-awareness by being a heavy-metal guitarist. She might be an athlete, and end up far beyond you in the area of using breathing to affect autonomic responses. She might be a screenwriter or actress and have as much self-awareness as humanly possible.

-=- it is extremely liberating to embrace my daughter's love for movies. her inner light is certainly shining out when she watches Barbie defeat the evil fairy queen! -=-

Here's something very cool that Ben Lovejoy wrote about movies and his children. It's touching, and poetic, and profound. I just put it on my site yesterday. It doesn't have it's pictures in yet, even (though I'll work on that this morning, so some of you will read this after it's illustrated some).
http://sandradodd.com/lovejoy/alookback.html

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 26, 2011, at 2:47 AM, teresa wrote:

> why do people feel too uncomfortable to just sit with themselves for
> those hours on the plane?

There's something disturbing about the question. It's looking at
people freely choosing what satisfies them in the moment and wondering
why they're not choosing something you feel is superior.

I'm betting loads of people who've had an epiphany look out with
judgement on the rest of the world, pondering how much happier
everyone would be if they knew The Truth, the Right Way to see and be.

It's an outlook that will get in the way of unschooling. It will make
you value more a child's choices that are in line with yours rather
than the freedom to choose.

Joyce

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Robin Bentley

>
>> why do people feel too uncomfortable to just sit with themselves for
>> those hours on the plane?
>
My husband (who spends many, many hours on planes) would snort and say
"if only I could do that amongst a bunch of people who want to talk to
me even though I don't know them *and* I have my noise-canceling
headphones on, flight attendants asking me questions every 30 minutes,
announcements from the captain telling me that "the city of Wichita is
on our left, though you can't see it through the clouds", and seat
mates who have bladders the size of peas and need to use the restroom
constantly, it would be great! I'm usually on a plane, working, not
"sitting with myself" or if I'm with my family, talking and soothing
and helping out and having fun".

If you're a nun, I'd think people might leave you alone to your
contemplations, being that you're in robes and all (maybe I should
recommend that to my husband: dress like a Buddhist monk and no one
will bother you!). "Being with oneself" is also easier if your entire
circle of friends and colleagues are on that same path, like in a
monastery. It's encouraged, if not required! People who can sit with
themselves on a plane with 200 strangers who have many other ways of
behaving, have had a *lot* of practice.

Believe me, if my husband could get places fast without 200 other
people with him, he'd do it. His quiet contemplation is working and
writing and planning. It's not superior or inferior to anyone else's
way.

Robin B.

Rippy Dusseldorp

-=- She pondered why people felt too uncomfortable to just sit with themselves for those hours on the plane. -=-

I think part of her work involves pondering these sorts of questions. She helps people learn how to meditate, be calm and present. Pondering these questions may help her be better able to aid the people that come to her. When I was teaching, I spent time thinking about the things that made my students uncomfortable. It helped me find better ways to help them.

My 'work' *now* is to consider the things that make Gianluca and Gisele uncomfortable and help find ways to make things better for them.

Rippy (Gianluca 6, Gisele 5)

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

 
 

 
<<<"-=- She pondered why people felt too uncomfortable to just sit with themselves for those hours on the plane. -=-

I think part of her work involves pondering these sorts of questions. She helps people learn how to meditate, be calm and present. Pondering these questions may help her be better able to aid the people that come to her. When I was teaching, I spent time thinking about the things that made my students uncomfortable. It helped me find better ways to help them.">>>>>>


-=-=-=-=-=-=-

But someone who is choosing to read a book , watch a movie, do something in the computer is not necessarily  feeling "unconfortable to just sit there with themselves for those hours on a plane"
They may just be choosing to  read a book, watch a movie, listen to music or whatever they are doing because they like it and rather do that.

Sitting with themselves for those hours on the plane   is not more valuable than reading a book that you are enjoying or going for a bike ride or whatever makes one happy.

Alex Polikowsky

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Karen

>>>>>but it isn't by sheltering her or prohibiting the use of technology that will help her know her own inner light in choatic situations. it seems pema was saying that. and i think waldorf says that. that technology gets in the way. but it certainly doesn't! i am slowly learning that, through the help of this list, and it is extremely liberating to embrace my daughter's love for movies.
*****

I think if you are in the early stages of listening to your own voice because it has been suppressed so long you can hardly identify it, then anything that distracts from hearing oneself clearly can seem like it is getting in the way.

Your daughter will continue to hear herself clearly if her way of interacting in and learning from the world around her is supported and encouraged, and not in constant conflict with the ways of those she loves. I learned that the hard way. I remember working through my own issues with media, and one day asking my son a question. I don't remember the question, but I do remember his reply. He said, "I don't know what you want me to say." I knew I was failing then, and needed to work quickly and diligently to create a home that allowed him to know, or at least freely work out, what *he* wanted to say for himself. *That* is where the inner calm lies, in my opinion.

I just received a couple magnets from Sandra's site. There is one I love best. It says:

"If your child is more important than your vision of your child, life becomes easier."

This has proved very true in our home.