HSMomma2Bre

Greetings everyone,

I've been lurking these halls for some time now trying to see if I fit it in
but now I'd like to ask for some input. I'll apologize ahead of time because
I know I tend to be long-winded.



Problem: I'm currently struggling lately with the fact that I'm feeling
two-faced about my children's education - two kids - two complete different
adventure!



I have two daughters. My 12 yo is homeschooled due to the fact she has ADHD,
an anxiety disorder and a language based learning disability. And when I say
homeschooled, well, we generally unschool. We support and encourage anything
she's passionate about which leads to an enriching environment she learns
from. No curriculum, no set tables for learning - just plain ol' fun!

Then there's my 16yo. She is currently in grade 10 in the public school
system which she enjoys. She created and organized her entire 4yr highschool
study program ahead of time. She's not entirely sure what she'll study next
but has a strong interest in forensic science. She is extremely focused
about her future.

However!!! She is always late with her assignments, waits until the last
minute to study and gets easily distracted with computer games, friends and
boyfriend. Generally, I don't have a problem with this until I see her
grades. Unfortunately, although she's a brilliant child, her grades reflect
her lack of focus and organization in her studies. I've tried everything to
help her out - but this is just who she is - last minute girl! She does the
same with showers, laundry, eating, etc...

I'm struggling with the fact that I'm so leniant and relaxed with one
child's education - honestly feeling like she'll learn what she needs to
learn when she needs to learn it while being so strict (and I'll go as far
as saying sometimes mean) with the other child. Hubby has suggested we
remove computer access for a while, especially next fall. At first I thought
it was a good idea to allow her to develop `good study habits` but then it
hit me - who am I to say what `good study habits are for her` and why then
would I allow the other child to have free range of the computer??



As parents, we are not strict, we allow our children to have a say in
everything, we allow them to make their own choices. We are 'unschoolers' at
heart and our lifestyle reflect this EXCEPT when it comes to our oldest's
education.

This kept me awake for a bit last night and I concluded that maybe I'm just
trying to protect my kids from failure. While my youngest is a very hands on
kind of person, I allow her to explore and learn in that manner and she is
not experiencing detremental failure after failure in the school system like
before. Meanwhile, my oldest is at the other side of the spectrum and I
don't want to see her fail in her classes.

Yet, I'm still struggling with this inside because she is at an age where
she can choose not to go to school and then get a job. if she told me today
that she would not be returning to school in the fall, I might be ok with
that while at the same time be disappointed she didn`t get her high school
diploma. Two-faced??? I hate this! I have no expectations that my youngest
will attempt to get one. If she does - AWESOME! If she doesn`t - no big
deal!



Let me say that I know I'm the oddball in my family and within my circle of
friends. When I tried to explain this to them, I got all sorts of
(unwelcomed) feedback that simply didn't fit what I need to hear because
they are all coming from the `conventional` thinking of schooling. The worse
is when I hear someone say that I MUST expect my daughter to have her
highschool diploma. Excuse me, I don't have one, yet I do have two college
diplomas. Does that make me unworthy? Unaccepted in society? I followed my
passion once I figured out what it was - which was not at 18! I`m glad I
didn`t go to college then because I would have wasted a lot of money. My
youngest is passionate about working at a ranch and maybe owning one some
day. Please tell me how forcing her to acquire a highschool diploma will
benefit this dream of hers!



So why in the world am I not reacting the same way with my oldest`s life??
Why am I placing more importance on a conventional education when my honest
opinion is the complete opposite? Family expectations? Oldest child with
whom I make most of my mistakes with? Knowing forensic science is going to
require more focus? This is driving me completely nuts. I know she has an
exam tomorrow. Do I think she's studied her best for it. No! Does it bother
me? Not really. but when her grades will come in, I'll be devastated. I'll
feel like she didn't put her all into it. I'll feel like she could have done
better. and I'm recognizing here that I'm focusing on how I'm feeling and
not her. I don't think she really cares what the grades are, as long as she
passes the courses.



Please advise me on how to get out of this stinkin' thinking!!

Thanks,

Chantal





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm struggling with the fact that I'm so leniant and relaxed with one
child's education - honestly feeling like she'll learn what she needs to
learn when she needs to learn it while being so strict (and I'll go as far
as saying sometimes mean) with the other child. Hubby has suggested we
remove computer access for a while, especially next fall. At first I thought
it was a good idea to allow her to develop `good study habits` but then it
hit me - who am I to say what `good study habits are for her` and why then
would I allow the other child to have free range of the computer?? -=-

Having had a peek at your e-mail address domain name, I would guess part of your moral and emotional confusion come from your daughter being a bad example of what you sell for a living--efficiency assistance.

I recommend reading this:
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice

And I hope you don't actually believe that being strict and mean "allows" someone to develop "good study habits."

Without knowing your family at all, based on what you chose to share with us in one e-mail, it looks to me also like you think your older daughter "has potential" and you're afraid of the risk of giving her choices, but your second daughter is considered a loss, so no problem. Of course I could be wrong, or you might feel that way and not have articulated it to yourself, or you might want to be more careful how you describe your children. :-)

The principles of unschooling and natural learning work the same regardless of a child's talents or abilities, but parental posture (emotional, behavioral postures) can keep unschooling from working well.

-=-As parents, we are not strict, we allow our children to have a say in
everything, we allow them to make their own choices. We are 'unschoolers' at
heart and our lifestyle reflect this EXCEPT when it comes to our oldest's
education.-=-

Wouldn't that be like saying "We are 'vegetarians' at heart and our lifestyle reflects this EXCEPT when we kill a pig and eat it every week" ?
Or "We are 'honest and trustworthy' people at heart, when we're not stealing, stripping and reselling automobiles at night"?

You're a skilled enough writer to have put unschooling in quotes. That meant something to you. You qualified it by those quotation marks as "so-called unschooling" or "sort of unschooling."

How is this chasm in your parenting affecting the relationship between your daughters? Between you and each daughter? Between you and your husband?

Something in each of these might help you sort this all out in your heart and mind:

http://sandradodd.com/doit
http://sandradodd.com/partners
http://sandradodd.com/clarity

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 20, 2011, at 9:58 PM, HSMomma2Bre wrote:

> I'm so leniant and relaxed with one

This is a revealing phrasing here. It says that you hold a vision of
learning that is rigorous but you're letting one of your kids slide by.

Unschooling, though, is creating a supportive environment where kids
explore their interests. It's a totally different creature than
school, not school that's been relaxed. Like a cat is not a misshapen
dog with a personality disorder ;-)

I'm not saying that in a huffy way. I'm suggesting that your two-faced
feeling is coming from holding two very different visions of learning
and seeing each through the lens of the other. You're feeling guilty
for keeping controls on the schooling child but seeing letting go of
the controls for your other child as "lenient".

I think Sandra's right. You're not worried about your younger daughter
because you think she would have failed school so what she's doing is
better than what would have happened in school. But your other
daughter is capable of doing well in school and it bothers you that
she isn't providing you with what you need to see (eg, good grades).

You can't stop pressuring her until you stop caring about the
artificial learning feedback (grades) and start caring about
supporting and providing an environment for her to learn in. What she
does with the school part is up to her. In a supportive environment,
it's not an "I don't care, do whatever you want," attitude, but an "Is
there anything you'd like me to do? I'm here for whatever you need,"
attitude. And then support her interests rather than eagle eying how
she's treating school.

One thing that might help you to relax is letting go of the idea of
her going directly onto college in 2 years. She can take time to
explore life in real ways to get a better focus on the kinds of things
she loves doing.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

HSMomma2Bre

-=- Without knowing your family at all, based on what you chose to share
with us in one e-mail, it looks to me also like you think your older
daughter "has potential" and you're afraid of the risk of giving her
choices, but your second daughter is considered a loss, so no problem. Of
course I could be wrong, or you might feel that way and not have articulated
it to yourself, or you might want to be more careful how you describe your
children. :-) The principles of unschooling and natural learning work the
same regardless of a child's talents or abilities, but parental posture
(emotional, behavioral postures) can keep unschooling from working well.-=-



Funny that you mention this Sandra because it couldn't be further from the
truth. In fact, I view my oldest daughter following the conventional crowd,
not stepping out of any comfort zone, may it be her own or 'the norm' from
our society. My youngest on the other hand, she is the one with potential.
She is the curious one. She will step outside the norm zone to follow a
passion. She's not afraid of telling everyone that when she grows up, she's
going to raise horses and be a pilot. She's also awesome at drawing and
expresses a future in that too. My oldest, well she wants to be a teacher or
a forensic scientist. I don't measure one career better than the other but
my family does. Teaching or working in an office/lab is way more
'successful' than working the farm. Please! With that said, it's no secret
that I'm the 'failure' of the family since I'm self-employed at home and
everyone else has a 'job'!



Thanks for the links Sandra, I've got some reading to do! J





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "HSMomma2Bre" <homeschooling@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm struggling with the fact that I'm so leniant and relaxed with one
> child's education - honestly feeling like she'll learn what she needs to
> learn when she needs to learn it while being so strict (and I'll go as far
> as saying sometimes mean) with the other child.



My son, now 15, was removed from school at the age of seven in the same week that his ten years older sister graduated from high school. For the next three years until my daughter moved to a place of her own, it was fascinating to watch them together when she was studying or writing an assignment for her college degrees (Arts and Law) while her brother was equally engrossed in playing videogames. She needed to get up early on weekdays to drive to college, he could stay up all night if he wanted to and sleep late. There were other ways in which their daily lives were often a case of one seemingly always working and the other seemingly always on vacation. It was all perfectly congenial however, and that was because my daughter was doing what she wanted to do and my son was doing what he wanted to do and my wife and I were getting what we wanted, which was for our children to be happy. Eight years on, my daughter is currently studying for her Master of Laws and her brother is still spending most of his time playing videogames and he still stays up all night and sleeps late if he wants to. Emotional conflict has been absent from these circumstances for my wife and I because we're focussed on the *same outcome* for both of our children. They're simply travelling by very different routes.

When happiness is the purpose - not academic achievement, not being an unschooler - and I act in support of that purpose, surprising and fascinating things happen that I could never predict and life paths reveal themselves. It seems to me that it's common amongst parents to say that what they want *most* for their children is for them to be happy, but my own experience suggests to me that this can't be merely a hope or a wish or subservient to societal expectations and personal limitations. It must be the primary objective.

Bob

Sandra Dodd

-=--=- Without knowing your family at all, based on what you chose to share
with us in one e-mail, it looks to me also like you think your older
daughter "has potential" and you're afraid of the risk of giving her
choices, but your second daughter is considered a loss, so no problem. Of
course I could be wrong, or you might feel that way and not have articulated
it to yourself, or you might want to be more careful how you describe your
children. :-) The principles of unschooling and natural learning work the
same regardless of a child's talents or abilities, but parental posture
(emotional, behavioral postures) can keep unschooling from working well.-=-

Funny that you mention this Sandra because it couldn't be further from the
truth.-=-


Some of it is true. this is true:

-=-The principles of unschooling and natural learning work the
same regardless of a child's talents or abilities, but parental posture
(emotional, behavioral postures) can keep unschooling from working well.-=-

I'm not sure which part isn't true, but it's definitely not ALL as far as possible from the truth.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

MD wants to learn blacksmith ( blacksmithing?). We are going to call a few locals that  do it and see if we can watch some or even if they would work with him. We have seen a few videos but many are  done the modern way with machines and computers . He wants to learn how they did in the Middle ages and Renaissence.
Does anyone have any more ideas I can share with my son?

 
Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Caroline Gallear

Are you in the UK? Here I know of a few 'open air museums' (restored
buildings etc) where they sometimes do displays of that sort of old skill.
Just a thought :)

Caroline.

On 21 June 2011 19:39, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> MD wants to learn blacksmith ( blacksmithing?). We are going to call a few
> locals that do it and see if we can watch some or even if they would work
> with him. We have seen a few videos but many are done the modern way with
> machines and computers . He wants to learn how they did in the Middle ages
> and Renaissence.
> Does anyone have any more ideas I can share with my son?
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sheeboo2

Noor was/is really interested in this too and I was able to find a few people/places that work with kids, but none as young as her. The tools are heavy, so everyone asked that she be at least 9yrs.

Look for historical parks that offer colonial reenactments or other such events; I found someone when we went to a Colonial Days fair at an old plantation. Also, look at the lists of vendors and artisan demonstrators who exhibit at local Renaissance fairs, and contact anyone who smiths.

Here's a list of some US places that offer classes:
http://www.abana.org/resources/education/schools.shtml

There are a ton of great videos on Youtube as well.

Brie

sheeboo2

A Google video search for "Historical reenactment blacksmithing" found these:
http://tinyurl.com/3knza9e

B

plaidpanties666

Do y'all know any farmers who keep horses? Ask who their farrier is - that's an easy way to get to watch some basic smithing. Beyond that, look for local SCA groups, but also university extension organizations. Both Ray and my dad found blacksmithing classes via extension groups (one in TN, one in the Chicago area).

The trouble with real blacksmithing, though, is that it takes brute strength. Theres a reason you see more little curlicue do-dads than anything else made by smiths - even those take a Lot of work to beat into shape, and those are the starter projects. So for a little guy looking to play with hot metal, I'd suggest some other directions like copper and silver. They're muuuuuch easier in terms of sheer physical power, but use essentially the same concepts.

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

"HSMomma2Bre" <homeschooling@...> wrote:
>> However!!! She is always late with her assignments, waits until the last
> minute to study and gets easily distracted with computer games, friends and
> boyfriend. Generally, I don't have a problem with this until I see her
> grades.

Wait, stop - how does She feel about her grades? If she's okay with them, then its no big deal. If She wants better grades, maybe you can work toward a solution together. The important thing is for You to step away from using grades to judge her. If she's satisfied with what she's doing, then that's enough.

You're using her grades to judge her as a person. If there were no grades -or if she got all As- how would you feel about the way she manages her time? Treat her like she gets straight As.

> I'm struggling with the fact that I'm so leniant and relaxed with one
> child's education - honestly feeling like she'll learn what she needs to
> learn when she needs to learn it while being so strict (and I'll go as far
> as saying sometimes mean) with the other child.

It's good that you're struggling. That's the sort of situation that can trash both kids' self-esteem. The "broken" child gets to play while the "whole" child has to work harder? Chances are, that's not what you mean to imply! But it would be easy for kids to read those kinds of implications into the differences in the way they're treated. And its even possible that some kind of bias in that direction is lurking in the back of your mind - on some level, you expect more of one and less of the other.

> when her grades will come in, I'll be devastated.

Don't look at her grades. Don't ask about them. If anything, ask your daughter to keep them away from you. Treat the matter like an alcoholic asking that no-one bring booze into the house for awhile.

Do you know the old joke: "what do you call the person who graduates at the bottom of the class at medical school? Doctor." ? If your daughter is meeting her own goals, the grades aren't relevant. If you can't believe that yet, set yourself up so that at least you aren't giving her grief for something unimportant to her.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

A response to this was received, not from the original poster but another list member fairly new to the list. I'm posting just the text without any namat attached. It's appended, below the double lines.


> -=--=- Without knowing your family at all, based on what you chose to share
> with us in one e-mail, it looks to me also like you think your older
> daughter "has potential" and you're afraid of the risk of giving her
> choices, but your second daughter is considered a loss, so no problem. Of
> course I could be wrong, or you might feel that way and not have articulated
> it to yourself, or you might want to be more careful how you describe your
> children. :-) The principles of unschooling and natural learning work the
> same regardless of a child's talents or abilities, but parental posture
> (emotional, behavioral postures) can keep unschooling from working well.-=-
>
> Funny that you mention this Sandra because it couldn't be further from the
> truth.-=-
>
> Some of it is true. this is true:
>
> -=-The principles of unschooling and natural learning work the
> same regardless of a child's talents or abilities, but parental posture
> (emotional, behavioral postures) can keep unschooling from working well.-=-
>
> I'm not sure which part isn't true, but it's definitely not ALL as far as possible from the truth.
>
> Sandra


===============================
(response received, now made anonymous)
===============================

My take on this stems from my own personal bottom line, which is if
youre gonna do a thing, if you commit to something, you should follow
through. If my child says "I want a piano and help in learning to play
it," I'm not buying a piano until I have a cleqr agreement with my
child that she will study music, practice, etc. When my eldest decided
to attend public school, it was wirh the understandingn that she would
abide by the rules & expectations of the school -- that she would
study, complete assignmemts on time, and submit to the standards of
the school.

Aside from my personal standards of wanting to raise competent and
trustworthy offspring, the act of failing in high school has
consequences. These can be significant. Since she didnt HAVE TO attend
school, but wanted to exercise her own right to set her own goals and
choose her own pathway, i felt that it was reasonable to exact an
agreement from her to uphold her end of the bargain.

I am not "lenient." My goal is to provide guidance and support where
needed, and the wherewithal to do what my kids need to do (which
sometimes/often involves letting them make their own way to their own
goals). I require follow-thru from them, though, once they have set
their path.

=================
end quote
=================


I'll respond separately. Others are welcome to, too.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Does anyone have any more ideas I can share with my son?-=-

He might want to look into Damascus steel, and Japanese knifemaking and swordmaking techniques. Wrought iron (not cast iron) might lead to good clues, too.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-The trouble with real blacksmithing, though, is that it takes brute strength. Theres a reason you see more little curlicue do-dads than anything else made by smiths - even those take a Lot of work to beat into shape, and those are the starter projects. So for a little guy looking to play with hot metal, I'd suggest some other directions like copper and silver. They're muuuuuch easier in terms of sheer physical power, but use essentially the same concepts. -=-

Copper's more likely worked cold. Silver, too, except for casting (which would be more like cast iron than wrought iron).

Maybe a good project involving heat and tools would be tin punching or tinwork of other kinds, though it makes me (personally) really nervous because the tin is so sharp. There are things to do with cans and metal cutters, punches, or torches, and lanterns can be made, and picture frames, and boxes. Tinsmith or tin smith could be searched.

Soldering might be of interest, too. It's a modern tool (an electric soldering gun) but it might give people the idea of why only big strong guys made swords and hoes and shovels and horse shoes.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

>>If my child says "I want a piano and help in learning to play
> it," I'm not buying a piano until I have a cleqr agreement with my
> child that she will study music, practice, etc.

What if she's bad at it? It seems unreasonable to make Any kind of agreement without knowing if its even possible to acheive one's vision.

I wouldn't start with "buy a piano" I'd start with a fairly cheap electronic keyboard and let her play around. If she wanted lessons I'd look for people who aren't going to put too much pressure on her to perform. Let her ease in, rather than demanding an unreasonable commitment.

Kids don't learn to make commitments from being forced to keep them if they find they made a bad choice - it often makes them shy of choices, shy of commitments and going beyond what's absolutely required. People who feel railroaded into keeping commitments resist - they cheat on their marriages and goof off at work. People who feel like they have choices very often choose to be responsible, to go above and beyond what's required.

>>When my eldest decided
> to attend public school, it was wirh the understandingn that she would
> abide by the rules & expectations of the school -- that she would
> study, complete assignmemts on time, and submit to the standards of
> the school.

Submitting to the standards of the school could include being willing to accept bad grades, even failure - but that doesn't sound like it was part of the deal. If she chose to go to school to play the grading game, then there's No Reason to hold her to that standard, because its her own goal to beat the game - get the high score. If she does, she wins. If not, then what? It could be up to her - not "well you'll have to do x, now" but re-evaluate. Maybe this isn't the best game for you, would you like to take a break? Try another route to meeting your goals? Play with different expectations? Not everyone needs to get the high score, after all.

If a child decides to go to school for social reasons, then there's even Less of a reason to fuss over grades. They reeeeeaaaaaaly don't matter if the whole point of the experience is to meet people and observe the sociology of school - all she needs to do is Pass.

As an adult, it has taken me years to "give myself permission" to try things - even after teaching other adults and seeing just how often adults drop things. I still breathe a sigh of relief every time I hear another adult say "I'm just trying this out - no commitment". Lately, I've been really enjoying exploring sword fighting with a local SCA group, and one thing that has impressed me is that several times I've been advised Not to commit. Don't invest in the arms and armor Yet, try it awhile first. It's rather refreshing in a world where everyone seems to want a hundred bucks up front to hear "no, try it out first - after all, what good's a bunch of fake armor if you discover you don't like getting hit?" It took a lot of deschooling for that to sound perfectly reasonable - and yet, it Is perfectly reasonable!

---Meredith

Melissa Dietrick

-=-The trouble with real blacksmithing, though, is that it takes brute
strength. Theres a reason you see more little curlicue do-dads than anything
else made by smiths - even those take a Lot of work to beat into shape, and
those are the starter projects. So for a little guy looking to play with hot
metal, I'd suggest some other directions like copper and silver. They're
muuuuuch easier in terms of sheer physical power, but use essentially the
same concepts. -=-
my husbands father was a blacksmithand he has always had a knack for
tinkering with fire and metals...He uses iron rods, heated in a castiron
woodstove to make his bamboo flutes: Ive noticed that just heating these
rods up red hot gets them to a bangable malleability (?is that
english??lol)--just need a hammer and a flat stone for that...and some
creativity. I know that they can also be heated up on a gas stove burner
but they take a bit longer.
hths
xxmelissa
in italy

lucia 24yr, lidia 20.5yr, matteo 17.25yr, raffaele 13.5yr,
elena shanti 11yr, giacomo leo 8yr and gioele 5.75y

"There is a Place beyond Rightness and Wrongness -- let us meet There."
§Rumi

http://apprendimentonaturale.blogspot.com/
www.nontogliermiilsorriso.org

http://www.indianbambooflute.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>> Copper's more likely worked cold. Silver, too, except for casting (which would be more like cast iron than wrought iron).
**************

A certain amount of copper and silver is beaten, though - copper, especially, and you can make a lot out of pennies and scrap copper without a big investment. Sometimes beating one thing into another is the big attraction of metal work - Ray worked a lot with copper before he had his own forge at home because he loves the process so much.

There's a lot that can be made "sweating" copper together using plumbing tools, though, and that can bring in some of the fun of working hot - and the materials aren't costly and are easy to find. You just need a simple propane torch, nothing fancy, and if you aren't actually running water through it your joints don't have to be all that perfect.

Silver takes more specialized tools to work hot (oxy-acetylene torch, I think... some two-gas torch, anyway), and its more of a jewelry-making thing, but it could be worth seeing if MD's interested in visiting a silver smith. Ray took a class with a local silver and glass smith as a work-exchange before he had his forge. It was a way to get to work with really dangerous levels of heat - which is another part of the appeal of blacksmithing. For that matter, if there's anyone in the area who works with glass that could be fun, too, if extremes of heat are part of the appeal.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=-My take on this stems from my own personal bottom line, which is if
youre gonna do a thing, if you commit to something, you should follow
through. -=-

For purposes of this list, only bottom lines that support unschooling are helpful.

-=-... I'm not buying a piano until I have a cleqr agreement with my
child that she will study music, practice, etc.-=-

There are good reasons children aren't allowed to enter into contracts until they're older. They're too young to understand that. Too many parents hold children to agreements they weren't able to really understand. Even adults have a hard time understanding longterm agreements (or emotions change, so they leave or get divorced or whatever). Children should NOT be held to "clear agreements," especially when there's something held over them like "...or else I won't get a piano."

-=- When my eldest decided
to attend public school, it was wirh the understandingn that she would
abide by the rules & expectations of the school -- that she would
study, complete assignmemts on time, and submit to the standards of
the school.-=-

This has nothing at all, whatsoever, with unschooling.


-=-Aside from my personal standards of wanting to raise competent and
trustworthy offspring...-=-

WHOA! Clearly this wasn't written by anyone who had met any of my competent and trustworthy offspring. What an insult, to suggest that people without the "personal standards" described in those statement (about "exacting agreements" and such) have lower standards, and that their offspring won't be competent or trustworthy.

-=-... the act of failing in high school has
consequences. These can be significant. -=-

Failing in high school is not "an act." High school intends to fail a certain percentage of those enrolled. Top of the class isn't worth anything without a bottom of the class. And there is only one valedictorian, but there will be many drop-outs and flunk-outs. It takes more than one act to fail high school. It takes years of crazy nonsense at school and at home and in each poor child's life. Schools do significant damage to a significant number of their students. They know it; they have no way to avoid it.

-=-Since she didnt HAVE TO attend
school, but wanted to exercise her own right to set her own goals and
choose her own pathway, i felt that it was reasonable to exact an
agreement from her to uphold her end of the bargain.-=-

#1, coming to this list and telling us what someone did or did not HAVE TO do in all caps gets you this:
http://sandradodd.com/haveto

#2, "...but wanted to exercise her own right to set her own goals and
choose her own pathway" sounds resentful and pissy.

#3. "i felt that it was reasonable to exact an
agreement from her to uphold her end of the bargain."
It wasn't reasonable. It was punitive and UNreasonable.


-=-I am not "lenient." My goal is to provide guidance and support where
needed, and the wherewithal to do what my kids need to do (which
sometimes/often involves letting them make their own way to their own
goals). I require follow-thru from them, though, once they have set
their path.-=-

But none of that leads toward an understanding of unschooling.

To write of a child choosing a path, and then being compelled to finish that path by a parent, even if the child wishes to change paths, is antagonism and control, rather than partnership and peaceful parenting.

Unschooling isn't about a child choosing longterm commitments. It's about learning in the moment, from real-world experiences, in the presence of loving, involved parents.

Sandra

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Joyce Fetteroll

> My take on this stems from my own personal bottom line, which is if
> youre gonna do a thing, if you commit to something, you should follow
> through.

If the priority of unschooling is joyful living and learning, your
priority will get in the way. Putting commitment first says going
through the motions of sticking with something is more important than
whether you enjoy it or not.

A great deal of conventional parenting is about kids putting on a show
of having values and not about holding those values. Presumably the
kids eventually go through the motions enough that they've memorized
how they're supposed to behave.

Much better for understanding values is mom living the values, and
using the values in her interactions with her kids. If a mom promises
she'll do something and follows through that means way more to a child
than when a child is made to put on an outward show that looks like
commitment. If a mom needs to break her promise and responds to the
child as she would a friend whose friendship she valued -- with a
sincere apology and a reschedule -- the child will trust the mom more.

If the mom often breaks her word and treats it as no big deal because
what she needs done is much more important than a child's needs, that
will mean something too, and not in a good way.


> If my child says "I want a piano and help in learning to play
> it," I'm not buying a piano until I have a cleqr agreement with my
> child that she will study music, practice, etc.

Which is a really good way to train kids not to try things.

If the goal is joyful exploration on the child's terms, that method
will get in the way.

Though no one needs to buy a piano-curious child a piano to help her
explore it. There are better ways to dip the toes into something the
child is curious about.

> When my eldest decided
> to attend public school, it was wirh the understandingn that she would
> abide by the rules & expectations of the school -- that she would
> study, complete assignmemts on time, and submit to the standards of
> the school.

There's one way schools want kids to use schools, but that's not the
only way.

In fact schools don't even stick to their values when they pass sports
stars on and when kids are socially promoted.

> Aside from my personal standards of wanting to raise competent and
> trustworthy offspring,

Parents who are fully committed to using the principles -- especially
with their kids -- that they make kids do, are more likely to have
kids who adopt those principles.

Parents who focus on getting the kids to comply with the principles
but don't practice those principles with their kids, are likely to
backfire.

The kicker is -- that unschoolers find with their kids -- is that they
don't need to make the kids put on a show of principles for the kids
to find value in the principles. Kids will value respect, commitment,
joyful living, patience, trust, truthfulness and so on if that's what
the parents use with the kids.

> the act of failing in high school has
> consequences.

This is true if school is someone's one and only pathway to an
education. But trying school and deciding it's not right for you, or
using school for some purpose other than what schools intend is very
different. When there are choices, no one needs to stick with
something that isn't working for them. Time's to short to waste on
something that didn't pan out.

>
> I am not "lenient." My goal is to provide guidance and support where
> needed,

Parents often equate making a child do something with guidance. Making
a child say thank you is thought of as guidance. Making a child
understand why the parent won't allow them a particular choice is
thought of as guidance.

If one adult treated another adult like that, the "guided" adult
wouldn't feel guided! They'd feel controlled and railroaded into
puppetting what someone with power over them insisted they do or
suffer the consequences.

Real guidance is information. Real guidance is helping someone think
through a problem and weigh their options so they can make a choice. A
child who has experienced parents helping them make a child rather
than helping them make the parents' choice, is very likely to listen
when a parent says, "No, wait, not a good idea." A child whose been
told her whole life "No, wait, your ideas aren't good. Here's why my
idea is what you should do," is likely to tune the parent out
eventually.

Joyce

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Deb Lewis

***if youre gonna do a thing, if you commit to something, you should follow
through.***

Is that true about sex too? Go through with it out of obligation even if you've changed your mind? Marriage? Abortion? Suicide? Buying a pig? Eating a quarter-pounder with cheese?

I would so much prefer my son know when a thing is not right, not working out, not what he wants anymore, and make choices based on clear thinking and reason.

***If my child says "I want a piano and help in learning to play
it," I'm not buying a piano until I have a cleqr agreement with my
child that she will study music, practice, etc.***

I have a piano story! We bought a piano for Dylan when he was so little no music teacher would take him. Our house was very small and we had to put half our sectional sofa in the back of my husbands truck to make room for the piano. We finally found a high school student who'd give him lessons. She was great, really sweet, didn't require him to play things he didn't like, never made playing the piano a drudgery. He took lessons for a year or so and then she went away to college. He didn't want another piano teacher. Sometimes he played and sometimes he didn't.

Three years ago he decided he wanted an organ. We finally found one he liked and that we could afford. We borrowed a van and drove a hundred and forty miles (both ways!) to pick it up - wrangled half the neighborhood to move it into the house.

He plays the organ and piano every day, hours and hours. Sometimes he plays all night. I don't know if he'll ever earn his living playing music but I do know that he loves it and even if he stops loving it tomorrow he's had so much pleasure from this old piano and organ. (Now *organs*, as in two, AND synthesizers<g>) For me to have denied him an organ because he was not constantly dedicated to the piano would have meant him missing out on one of the great pleasures of his life. What a terrible thing. I can't be sure, but knowing his personality, I don't believe he'd have gotten much joy (or any) from lessons as he has from playing what and when and how he liked. He reads music very competently. He plays well.

*** When my eldest decided
to attend public school, it was wirh the understandingn that she would
abide by the rules & expectations of the school -- that she would
study, complete assignmemts on time, and submit to the standards of
the school.***

I sometimes reminded Dylan he could go to school for one day if he wanted to try it. An hour. He never felt like it but if he had and it turned out to be a wrong fit for him, he could have come home in a moment.

***I am not "lenient." ***

Oh I am! Soft and soothing and glad to be.

Deb Lewis

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Pam Sorooshian

On 6/21/2011 6:15 AM, Bob Collier wrote:
> It seems to me that it's common amongst parents to say that what they
> want *most* for their children is for them to be happy, but my own
> experience suggests to me that this can't be merely a hope or a wish
> or subservient to societal expectations and personal limitations. It
> must be the primary objective.

I think when parents say that what they want most for their children
is "just for them to be happy" (and I include the "just" because it is
usually part of that expression, meaningfully), they really mean that
they want them to be able in the future, to earn enough money to buy
enough stuff to be happy. Two problems with that. First, it lets
happiness in the future trump happiness now and pretty much any parental
behavior can be justified on the grounds that it will lead to more
happiness sometime in the future. And, second, it usually has a very
materialistic undertone, one that would probably be denied by most
parents, that assumes that what leads to future happiness is being able
to buy stuff.

I'd add to Bob's suggestion that wanting happiness can't be just a hope
or wish, that it can't be something we are working toward for the
future, but something we are prioritizing right now.

-pam



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Jenny Cyphers

***I am not "lenient." My goal is to provide guidance and support where
needed, and the wherewithal to do what my kids need to do (which
sometimes/often involves letting them make their own way to their own
goals). I require follow-thru from them, though, once they have set
their path.***


This is standard parenting talk.  You can go anywhere online, in any parenting/mom social networking type site and get that kind of advice.  It goes like this:  MAKE your kids do it.  DON'T back down.  You are the parent, act like one.  Be MORE controlling.  Show those kids who's boss.  If you don't, they won't learn to be good people, you have to MAKE them do it.  If you give them an inch, they will walk all over you.  Show them you love them by making sure they follow all the rules.  Make sure they follow all the rules by consequences to their actions.  Punish them if they don't follow the rules.  Then, after all that wisdom, you get the pat answer of, do it because you love them, this is how you show kids you love them, by making sure they never stray from your authority, your parenting path.  All of this is generally followed with a "good luck", because they all know you'll need it with that awful advice.  That advice is a crap shoot.

What helps unschooling work is treating your kids as valid human beings worth having ideas and opinions that are not always your own and helping them manifest those ideas and opinions.  BE lenient, be gracious, be kind and gentle and considerate.  Consider the possibilities of what a piano can bring to your home, consider not whether any one person will agree to play it consistently, but whether that piano can bring joy and learning into your home.  So what if it sits there for years untouched, which I doubt it will?  Surely other people visit your home, what visitor might you have that will sit down and serenade you with beautiful music?

Don't go out and buy an expensive piano if nobody has any interest whatsoever in playing a piano, but be open to getting a piano if someone does.  I see people giving away pianos all the time.  Sometimes all a piano costs is the truck to pick it up and getting it tuned after it's moved.

If you insist on follow through every time one of your kids decides to try something, they may stop trying new things.  Parents can suck all the fun and joy and learning out of just about anything with that attitude!  Every one of us can think of examples of parental joy kill.

We have a girl living with us that really wants to take community college classes, has plans to do so starting this coming fall.  Her mom is being so persistent about it, and practically planning every detail, complete with expectations of some future completion that the girl almost doesn't want to go now.  I watched her enthusiasm be squashed by her mother's persistent chatter about what she should do and how.  She wasn't being lenient, she wants a total commitment from her daughter.  Her daughter is 16 and refuses to live with her mom.  Just 16!

I have seen parents squash that tiniest of sparks in their children with things like commitment and follow through and "for their own good".  Unschooling REQUIRES helping that spark grow!  Encourage your child's enthusiasm, their tiny little spark of interest in something.  You really have no idea where it can go and grow!  It's beautiful and mind expanding to watch it unfold!  The key is letting it.

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Jenny Cyphers

***I'd add to Bob's suggestion that wanting happiness can't be just a hope 
or wish, that it can't be something we are working toward for the 
future, but something we are prioritizing right now.***


I had a parent tell me straight up that they didn't care about whether or not their child was happy.  That they wanted their child to do what he was told, when he was told and to follow all the rules and work, so that he could be happy later.

The thing about that parent, he wasn't happy.  He was always unhappy, he didn't like his job, he doesn't like his life or his kid.  Misery loves company.  I think in some way he wanted his kid to be as miserable as he was.

What life is worth living if you don't enjoy it?   I truly don't know.  I think we get to choose to be happy in any moment of our life and I'd rather my kids feel that and know that deeply, so I focus a lot of my energy and life in creating a happy existence.  No matter what life brings to us, we can choose to see good around us.  It reminds me of that song by Macy Grey "Beauty in the World".  It is kind of my theme song and I LOVE that the video is filmed in front of the Watts Towers.  The man who built those, did so because he wanted to.  It took him years to do it and he did it little bit by little bit.  He found beauty in discarded remnants of human garbage.  The city wanted those towers torn down for years because they violated every building code it seemed.  Yet there they are, still standing in southern California.

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sheeboo2

It just occurred to me that he may enjoy hearing stories about the Roman god Vulcan (Hephaestus for the Greeks). He was the god of fire and metalworking, blacksmith to the gods and married to Aphrodite. Erupting volcanoes were said to be the result of his forging when angry.
Read a bit of the story before offering it, because like all the Greek/Roman myths, it could be upsetting to some children.

The second book in the Roman Mysteries series, and the first episode of the BBC TV show (email me off-list if you can't find a copy) addresses Vulcan in an exciting kid-friendly way,, as does D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths.

Brie

Pam Sorooshian

> (which sometimes/often involves letting them make their own way to
> their own
> goals). I require follow-thru from them, though, once they have set
> their path.**

Letting them make their own way is NOT unschooling. HELPING them make
their way and encouraging them and advising them and offering ideas of
alternative ways is unschooling.

Requiring follow-through from them is forcing them to complete something
even when it hasn't worked out the way they expected. That's just cruel
- they are young and can't possibly have the foresight to correctly
anticipate how they are really going to feel or how things are really
going to go. They should be "trying on" lots of ideas and it is
fantastic when parents will help them try things out without forcing
long-term commitments.

I did the exact opposite of this approach. I always added conditional
verbiage to make sure there was no pressure to continue if the child
wanted to move on - when a kid would say, "I am going to do xyz," I
would say, "Do you want to try it out and see how it goes for a while?"
Even when they were little, I was careful about getting into something
that involved too much commitment before we knew they were going to
really want to stick it out. When my daughter wanted to try gymnastics,
I found her a place she could sign up for only 3 weeks at a time. She
lasted through a couple of sessions and then was ready to move on to
something else. It was totally up to her - no big loss, no pressure one
way or the other from me. When my daughter signed up for karate, it was
at a place with no contract and free couple of weeks to get started. She
loved it. She's still there, 7 years later, at 20 years old, as an
instructor. Letting her quit gymnastics didn't make her unable to commit
long-term to karate.

Helping kids decide to continue or to stop for a while let's them feel
free to try out new things without fear of being stuck and without shame
or embarrassment at not predicting well whether they would like it or
not. They can say things like, "I tried gymnastics for a while - it was
fun." They don't ever have to say or think, "I am a quitter because I
didnt stick with it."

All of my kids are focused and committed to a variety of things - one is
in grad school, one a senior in college with two majors and a minor, one
getting an ASL interpreting certificate. All of these things took a
great deal of persistence and, as Sandra called it, endurance. They did
NOT learn to persist and endure to achieve their goals by us making them
follow through on things when they were younger. They learned that
sometimes it is worth it to follow through to get what you want and
sometimes it isn't - they are careful about making commitments that will
involve expensive losses if they change their minds. They are careful
about making commitments that will inconvenience other people, too, if
they change their minds. They learned that through experience and
through conversations and observations of other people's behaviors.

-pam

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> A response to this was received, not from the original poster but another list member fairly new to the list. I'm posting just the text without any namat attached. It's appended, below the double lines.
>
>
> > -=--=- Without knowing your family at all, based on what you chose to share
> > with us in one e-mail, it looks to me also like you think your older
> > daughter "has potential" and you're afraid of the risk of giving her
> > choices, but your second daughter is considered a loss, so no problem. Of
> > course I could be wrong, or you might feel that way and not have articulated
> > it to yourself, or you might want to be more careful how you describe your
> > children. :-) The principles of unschooling and natural learning work the
> > same regardless of a child's talents or abilities, but parental posture
> > (emotional, behavioral postures) can keep unschooling from working well.-=-
> >
> > Funny that you mention this Sandra because it couldn't be further from the
> > truth.-=-
> >
> > Some of it is true. this is true:
> >
> > -=-The principles of unschooling and natural learning work the
> > same regardless of a child's talents or abilities, but parental posture
> > (emotional, behavioral postures) can keep unschooling from working well.-=-
> >
> > I'm not sure which part isn't true, but it's definitely not ALL as far as possible from the truth.
> >
> > Sandra
>
>
> ===============================
> (response received, now made anonymous)
> ===============================
>
> My take on this stems from my own personal bottom line, which is if
> youre gonna do a thing, if you commit to something, you should follow
> through. If my child says "I want a piano and help in learning to play
> it," I'm not buying a piano until I have a cleqr agreement with my
> child that she will study music, practice, etc. When my eldest decided
> to attend public school, it was wirh the understandingn that she would
> abide by the rules & expectations of the school -- that she would
> study, complete assignmemts on time, and submit to the standards of
> the school.
>
> Aside from my personal standards of wanting to raise competent and
> trustworthy offspring, the act of failing in high school has
> consequences. These can be significant. Since she didnt HAVE TO attend
> school, but wanted to exercise her own right to set her own goals and
> choose her own pathway, i felt that it was reasonable to exact an
> agreement from her to uphold her end of the bargain.
>


"Exact" is an interesting choice of word and says a lot. I wouldn't like even my darling wife, whom I regard as the most wonderful woman on planet Earth and for whom I would cross rivers and climb mountains, to "exact" anything from me. In fact, I would object most strongly. Bargaining with somebody you love, or profess to love, since love doesn't work like that - especially if there's an expectation on only one side - is no basis for a successful relationship.

I have no hesitation in suggesting from personal experience that many beliefs about "success" regularly touted by gurus and supposed experts produce poor results in the cold light of actual experience and one of them is that "winners never quit".

Real winners know when to quit.

Bob

ylyon2003

A friends son (age 11 I think) did a blacksmithing course in the UK. With this guy http://www.school-of-blacksmithing.co.uk/ . They were able to negotiate for his dad to come along to do anything that required a lot of strength...and the blacksmith gave him some hammering excercises to do in the run up to the course to build his strength a little and get him used to the motions he would need to make.

The blacksmith who ran the course LOVES his work. He makes big peices of art that he enjoys making, that he then gets to sell and often sees on display\in use again at country houses and such. Triple win for him!



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-The trouble with real blacksmithing, though, is that it takes brute strength. Theres a reason you see more little curlicue do-dads than anything else made by smiths - even those take a Lot of work to beat into shape, and those are the starter projects. So for a little guy looking to play with hot metal, I'd suggest some other directions like copper and silver. They're muuuuuch easier in terms of sheer physical power, but use essentially the same concepts. -=-
>
> Copper's more likely worked cold. Silver, too, except for casting (which would be more like cast iron than wrought iron).
>
> Maybe a good project involving heat and tools would be tin punching or tinwork of other kinds, though it makes me (personally) really nervous because the tin is so sharp. There are things to do with cans and metal cutters, punches, or torches, and lanterns can be made, and picture frames, and boxes. Tinsmith or tin smith could be searched.
>
> Soldering might be of interest, too. It's a modern tool (an electric soldering gun) but it might give people the idea of why only big strong guys made swords and hoes and shovels and horse shoes.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Schuyler

>>My take on this stems from my own personal bottom line,<<

It's good to keep personal bottom lines personal. I don't expect Simon or
Linnaea to have my bottom lines. I don't expect them to have my motivations.
Sometimes I'm less than generous in my thoughts about people whose bottom lines
are so very different from mine, but that doesn't mean I'm right ;). My bottom
line is for me, it is about me. Your bottom line is your choice, your ethics,
your morality, which is not always going to be the same as anybody else's, most
particularly your child's.


Of course your personal bottom line is only relevant on an unschooling list when
it is actually applicable to unschooling. Your personal bottom line "which is if
youre gonna do a thing, if you commit to something, you should follow through."
Is almost antithetical to not only unschooling but much of life. I've quit lots
and lots of things. I dated at least 15 other guys before I dated and married
David. If I'd stayed with the first guy I dated, we were a very cute and
committed couple when we were 4 years old and at Montessori school, I don't know
how my life would have turned out. It would have been a long distance
relationship for a large bit of it, our break up came when he moved 1000 miles
away. I've quit a fair number of jobs and now am unemployed. But, heck, I
shouldn't be a model for you, I dropped out of high school. That didn't really
make getting my university degree any harder. I got in with a GED without any
difficulty. And now, for anyone to know that I'm a high school drop out, I have
to tell them.


Oh, I quit smoking. I was committed to smoking for a long time. People praised
me for that failure to stay focussed on my finishing what I started.


I've quit way more things than that, and I bet you have too. My mom treated me
once to a failure to finish something. I was reading a book that I wasn't
enjoying and she took it out of my hands and threw it in the trash. It was
sweet. It wasn't gross trash, just a bedroom wicker basket without anything else
in it, if I wanted I could grab it out again. But she was dramatically
demonstrating that I didn't have to commit to something longer than it was
enjoyable, at least to a book. I've quit reading a fair number of books since
then.


How do you do something else if you can't quit what you are currently doing? How
do you stop eating when you are full if there is still more on your plate? How
do you switch from one thing to another? How do you live a life full of new and
exciting things if you are stuck with all the things you decided might be
interesting but in the end weren't right for you? How much time is in your day?

>>Since she didnt HAVE TO attend school, but wanted to exercise her own right to
>>set her own goals and choose her own pathway, i felt that it was reasonable to
>>exact an agreement from her to uphold her end of the bargain.<<

But you aren't allowing her to continue to choose. You've stuck her with a
decision that she made without full information. She didn't know what school was
like, she didn't know what it would be to be whatever age she is now in school.
Being able to choose to do something is a big thing. If you stick her with every
choice she makes, if she gets trapped by opting in to something, if every
decision to do something is a trap, why would she choose to do anything else?
Would you opt in if you could never opt out?

Schuyler

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Schuyler

***I am not "lenient." ***

Oh I am! Soft and soothing and glad to be.

Deb Lewis

==============

Yes. Absolutely! Totally ditto.

Schuyler


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