Lisa

Hi. I read here every day and try to get the gist of unschooling. For the most part I think we do well, but we have occassional bumps in the road I want help with.

My son is 7, almost 8. He went to preschool at 2 and 3 and was kicked out of two different schools for aggression and strong-willed-ness. It was then that I decided to homeschool him and I found unschooling shortly thereafter.

His emotions come very hard and fast and intense and both his father and I are like that too.

I am having scared thoughts and feelings right now because I feel like our lifestyle of giving him complete freedom of choice is setting him up for failure in some ways.

For example, a few weeks ago, we went to a kind of free play at an artsy school gym where they had juggling toys out. There was a big hard ball that some of the kids were standing on and balancing on and he said he wanted to try it.

I talked to someone about getting a ball and the man indicated that he would need to help Joe on it and show him how to do it. Joe indicated immediate fear and said he didn't want to do it anymore. I knew that was because he didn't want that man 'instructing' him.

He doesn't want to do anything where someone else instructs him and he says "I don't want someone else to teach me anything".

I feel like this is an issue. I feel like he will deliberately choose not to do things he really wants to do if his father or I can't be the ones helping him.

I feel like we have provided this safe little cocooned world for him, and rather than that making him stronger and better able to deal with the outside world it has made him weaker and less able to deal with the outside world.

I don't want to be the reason that my son turns into some kind of hermit or .... I don't know what. I could envision things like never getting his drivers license or never doing anything outside the home. help please.

k

>>>I talked to someone about getting a ball and the man indicated that he
would need to help Joe on it and show him how to do it. Joe indicated
immediate fear and said he didn't want to do it anymore. I knew that was
because he didn't want that man 'instructing' him.<<<

I wonder if it's really about the instruction or if you're thinking it's the
instruction suggested to your child that that is the reason he didn't want
to be handed up top the ball. Either way, the child didn't want to do the
experiment as soon as the guy said he would have to help him. The guy
probably wanted to steady your child to forestall potential liability in
case of a bad fall.

Had it been Karl, the likeliest problem to being given a hand is that he
needs to be in charge. Specifically he doesn't like others to influence what
might happen to his body and he insists on things like not letting others
pick him up or make things chancy close to him. I want Karl to know when he
can trust others and when he can't.

It might not be anything to do with the instruction. Your child just doesn't
want whatever it is that he doesn't like about it.

Even if it is the instruction, what about you? You might be open to taking
classes because you went to school and it would just be another class. You
can tune in or out or whatever, even if you're being forced to take a class
you don't want.

Why do you want your unschooler to take classes again? What is it that's
important about taking classes to you?

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa

>
> Why do you want your unschooler to take classes again? What is it that's
> important about taking classes to you?
>
> ~Katherine


I want him not to be scared or opposed to open communication and learning from other people. I want him not to let fear stop him from doing what he wants to do.

Joe likes very much to be in charge too - to a fault sometimes I think.

k

>>>Joe likes very much to be in charge too - to a fault sometimes I think.<<<

First, do you really want to correct that? Needing to be in charge can
be heightened by pressuring and forcing a person to be more open.

Second, those things ("to a fault") are matters of perception,
depending on what role the person is filling. There's a big difference
in power, adult to child.

One of the most important things about being a powerless child is
having an adult who empowers them to learn a bit at a time what the
child wants to do for themselves. If the parent is the one choosing
what is good for a child to do or not do (like taking classes), then
the child loses freedom of choice in the most basic things -- not
being able to choose what they want to do with their time, what they
want to have in their heads to think about.

You could put your child in classes instead of waiting until your
child is motivated to seek instruction for reasons of his own. If you
push, then he may agree, and whether that's a bad or good experience,
it wasn't his idea but to please you.

Is that what you are after?

~Katherine

Robin Bentley

> I feel like we have provided this safe little cocooned world for
> him, and rather than that making him stronger and better able to
> deal with the outside world it has made him weaker and less able to
> deal with the outside world.

He's 7.

I think he may be entitled to a safe little cocoon for as long as he
needs it. As he gets older, he'll get stronger and better able to
deal with the outside world.
>
> I don't want to be the reason that my son turns into some kind of
> hermit or .... I don't know what. I could envision things like
> never getting his drivers license or never doing anything outside
> the home. help please.

Stop envisioning those things! I think you would do better to live in
the present instead of in some unknown future. Help him do what he
wants right now, even if that's not doing anything that looks like a
class.

This might help:
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulness/

Robin B.

wtexans

===I could envision things like never getting his drivers license or never doing anything outside the home.===

"Never" is a very restricting word and is not helpful for unschooling.


===I feel like he will deliberately choose not to do things he really wants to do if his father or I can't be the ones helping him.===

So, as often as possible, do your darndest to be the ones helping him.

Buy one of those balls, if they're affordable, and let him try it out in the comfort of your own home, where there's no concern about liability issues if he injures himself.

If he's interested in something with which you and his dad are unfamiliar, and he's not comfortable with a stranger helping him, let that person show *you*, then you can show your son. You could also make use of YouTube and reference books and dvds.

In the city in which we live, there's an artists' community that holds an "open house" of sorts once a month, where you can go watch the various artists while they do their craft. If my son was interested in forging metal, for example, and didn't want someone to specifically instruct him, we could go to that open house and, in a casual setting, watch someone forge metal. My son could ask questions and just chit-chat with the metalworker (I hope I'm using the proper terminology). If, at that point, he wanted some one-on-one instruction, he might be more comfortable with that person or someone else working with him. Think outside of the box when it comes to the ways a person can learn how to do things.

If your son gives you his trust by allowing you and his dad to help him, pushing him away from you towards someone he doesn't want to help him is going to chip away at that trust.

Glenda

k

>>>I am having scared thoughts and feelings right now because I feel like our lifestyle of giving him complete freedom of choice is setting him up for failure in some ways.<<<

and

>>>I feel like this is an issue. I feel like he will deliberately choose not to do things he really wants to do if his father or I can't be the ones helping him.<<<

>>>I feel like we have provided this safe little cocooned world for him, and rather than that making him stronger and better able to deal with the outside world it has made him weaker and less able to deal with the outside world.<<<

I thought of a couple of things about not thinking too big about
unschooling, calling it a "lifestyle," or thinking of children making
choices as an "issue." Things grow more slowly than that. It sounds to
me that you've only just begun to delve into unschooling and are still
wading in and realizing that you're getting a bit wet. And all the
changes have yet to feel familiar before you've started thinking way
out into the future about where they might be leading.

Someone recommended a book recently that might help with that. It's
called Slowing Down to the Speed of Life. I haven't gotten it yet but
I think it's a short read.

Also here's another perspective that might help too in thinking about
how everything you and your child are going through are stages and
season in life, some of which may have more permanent expressions,
some of which will fade into your yesterdays eventually.

It's a quote I saw on Facebook: "‎It is the nature of the child to be
dependent, and it is the nature of dependence to be outgrown.
Begrudging dependency because it is not independence is like
begrudging winter because it is not yet spring.... Dependency blossoms
into independence in its own time." -Peggy O'Mara

~Katherine

Schuyler

Try not to extrapolate your 7 year old into an adult. Try to help him negotiate
the world in the way he wants to now without being afraid that he'll be who he
is right this minute for forever. When he was in diapers, maybe, longer than his
peers, did you picture him at 20 still wearing diapers? I hope not. I hope that
you were able to see that he was just using diapers a bit longer than his peers.


When Linnaea was younger she didn't like to swing on a swing sitting down. She
didn't like to be pushed. She wanted to swing on a swing on her belly, using her
own power to propel her. She wanted the control. If someone had said she
couldn't swing on a swing that way she needed to sit down on the swing, she
wouldn't have swung. She would have found something else to do. She is fine
sitting on a swing now, she is fine with being pushed, or push her own self. But
when she was garnering skills of body control she wanted to be able to make
things happen or not happen with her own power.


Could you have asked the instructor if he could have coached you to be Joe's
aide? Or was Joe fine with not trying to ball out given the constraints of
instruction? Did you turn to something to explore on his own terms? Or did it
knock the wind out of your sails and you kind of pouted because you had an image
of him embracing the experience in a way that was different from how he did?

It's easy, as a parent, to get invested in an image of what you want to happen
and then to be saddened, at a loss for what to do when what you want to happen
doesn't happen. It is an amazing skill to be able to move from that moment of
disappointment easily and move on to the next moment. It is an even more amazing
skill to not get invested in what you think ought to be and instead just offer
and move with whatever the response is. Breathe and turn toward your child
instead of toward some horrible nightmare vision of how his future will play
out.


Schuyler





________________________________
From: Lisa <lisa@...>


My son is 7, almost 8. He went to preschool at 2 and 3 and was kicked out of
two different schools for aggression and strong-willed-ness. It was then that I
decided to homeschool him and I found unschooling shortly thereafter.

His emotions come very hard and fast and intense and both his father and I are
like that too.


I am having scared thoughts and feelings right now because I feel like our
lifestyle of giving him complete freedom of choice is setting him up for failure
in some ways.

For example, a few weeks ago, we went to a kind of free play at an artsy school
gym where they had juggling toys out. There was a big hard ball that some of
the kids were standing on and balancing on and he said he wanted to try it.


I talked to someone about getting a ball and the man indicated that he would
need to help Joe on it and show him how to do it. Joe indicated immediate fear
and said he didn't want to do it anymore. I knew that was because he didn't
want that man 'instructing' him.

He doesn't want to do anything where someone else instructs him and he says "I
don't want someone else to teach me anything".

I feel like this is an issue. I feel like he will deliberately choose not to do
things he really wants to do if his father or I can't be the ones helping him.

I feel like we have provided this safe little cocooned world for him, and rather
than that making him stronger and better able to deal with the outside world it
has made him weaker and less able to deal with the outside world.


I don't want to be the reason that my son turns into some kind of hermit or ....
I don't know what. I could envision things like never getting his drivers
license or never doing anything outside the home. help please.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 9, 2011, at 8:26 PM, Lisa wrote:

> I want him not to be scared or opposed to open communication

But if he openly communicates his fear or irritation, feelings that
you don't want him to have, he meets with disapproval. That will
increase his fear of openly communicating with you. Even if you didn't
say you were disappointed, he felt it in your body language and tone
and by the fact that you didn't respond in a way that said "Okay,
let's find a different way for you to do that. Or find something else."

Wanting our kids to be other than who they are tends to make them draw
inward and not share who they are. They can hide the part the parents
don't want them to have. It doesn't make that part go away! But the
parents are fooled when it goes into hiding. Which leaves the child
deal with it on their own.

But you want the best for him! You want him to be happy!

The trap of wanting our kids to be different even for "good" reasons
is that parents' thoughts and actions say "I don't like who you are. I
want you to be different."

Parents don't want their words and actions to say that! They want the
child to feel the "help" to change as loving. But unless the child
wants it, it just can't. The words and actions say, "You're not good
enough as you are. You need to change to be more like someone I want
you to be."

If there were something about his personality that wouldn't ever take
instruction, you can't change that. You can, through pressure and
disapproval, make him go through the motions of taking instruction,
being uncomfortable, feeling bad that he's got these wrong feelings in
him.

But if it's because he's young -- which it is -- you have the
opportunity to help him gradually try out and build up strategies to
work with his discomfort when *he's* ready. There *will* be times when
he really wants something that you two won't be able to help him with
as effectively as he wants.

If you didn't read the Oppositional Defiant Disorder thread, it might
be helpful if you read it with an eye to you wanting him to do things
he doesn't feel comfortable doing.

Oppositional Defiant Disorder
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/58561

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lalow

>
> > I want him not to be scared or opposed to open communication
>
Almost a year ago i asked a similiar question on another group about my 7 year old son, Ben. It seemed like he backed away from so many things that he liked or said he was interested in because of fear. It bothered me cause I want him to enjoy life and not be intimidated by people and challenges. But the advise I got was to accept my son for who he was right then. And that is what I have tried very hard to do. And our communication and my understanding of him and how he learns has improved so much in the past year. I can see how the freedom to explore and approach things and new activities on his own terms brings him delite. Before all I was looking at was the fear. He seemed so apprehensive of all new situations or people. But backing off and accepting I can see that my son needed space and trust. He still has no interest whatsoever in taking classes or joining teams but I now see how if given the space, trust, freedom and support he explores new things, he learns and even asks people (besides me or his dad) questions from time to time.

plaidpanties666

"Lisa" <lisa@...> wrote:
>> I talked to someone about getting a ball and the man indicated that he would need to help Joe on it and show him how to do it. Joe indicated immediate fear and said he didn't want to do it anymore. I knew that was because he didn't want that man 'instructing' him.
****************

Would he have been okay with you helping? That would be something to try - ask the man to show you how to support your son on the ball, with another child perhaps, or if there are other options like moving the ball close to a wall while you steady the thing.

In the moment, its more helpful to see "I don't want that" as an opportunity to problem solve. Okay, you don't want *that*... what about a variation? If you're being rigid in your thinking it will feed in to your son's nervousness and also any feelings he may have of being out-of-control. Actively look for ways to put him in the driver's seat, as it were, with you helping him on the side - that lets him *feel* more in control as well as setting him up to look for more options and alternatives, himself.

---Meredith

Julie

> It's easy, as a parent, to get invested in an image of what you want to happen and then to be saddened, at a loss for what to do when what you want to happen doesn't happen. It is an amazing skill to be able to move from that moment of disappointment easily and move on to the next moment. It is an even more amazing skill to not get invested in what you think ought to be and instead just offer and move with whatever the response is. Breathe and turn toward your child instead of toward some horrible nightmare vision of how his future will play out.

> Schuyler

Thanks for this observation and wisdom, Schulyer; it came at a good time. This week, for whatever reason, I got it in my head that it's time we started "doing" more with our boys and I decided we'd try iceskating (my husband I know how). So, my husband (Larry), and James (5 yo) and Tyler (3yo) and I went iceskating for the first time together. I FELT I had prepared myself mentally for having low expectations and TRIED to have no expectations all. But then I was disappointed. Both boys had falls that squelched their enthusiasm quickly and they wanted to go within 30 minutes. My husband was giving me the "I knew this wasn't going to work and now they both got hurt and this is a disaster" look. And then I just crumbled on the inside. Cascading, catastrophic thoughts:

Why did I bother to try this?
When are we ever going to be able to go out and have fun as a family rather than living in "Cars"-land and "Thomas"-land and "Club Penguin"-land 24 hours a day?
How am I supposed to know when/if they are ready to EVER try ANYTHING again?
Why is Larry being such as ass?
$40 for 45 minutes of skating. $20 for a babysitter for Audrey (17 months). The inevitable lunch out that the will want for $20+. And, the trip to Toys R US for more Club Penguin and Cars "junk" with 20 pieces each for me to pick up off the floor that will cost God knows how much - yea! (with sarcasm).
Neither boy has any athletic ability or interest.
etc
etc

Clearly, my thoughts were very distorted and immature. I was very pouty. It was a terrible moment of ridiculous fear-based, pessimistic self--indulgence. In the end, Larry recognized on his own that he had been very unsupportive and mocking of my hopes for the outing, so that was good. I got over my bad moments, but am still a little thrown that I "went there" mentally so quickly and effortlessly after a single failed attempt to iceskate.

I have felt for a long time that I had no "deschooling" left to do, and that may be true academically. But I sure have something that I need to get over.

So thank you for the wisdom above. Now I just have to figure out how to live it.
Julie M
James 2005
Tyler 2007
Audrey 2009

Sandra Dodd

-=-
I have felt for a long time that I had no "deschooling" left to do, and that may be true academically. But I sure have something that I need to get over.-=-

As your children get older and go through different ages and stages, you will (we all do) have more deschooling to do. Someone with all younger children might "have it together) for five years, and then hit a bump (the bump usually being internal to the parent, from some childhood trauma or other at that age the child is approaching).

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I am having scared thoughts and feelings right now because I feel like our lifestyle of giving him complete freedom of choice is setting him up for failure in some ways.-=-

I don't know what others have said, so this might be a repeat, but this list hasn't recommended "complete freedom of choice."
Don't think of your "lifestyle" as "giving him complete freedom of choice."

http://sandradodd.com/nest

First, try not to think of it as "a lifestyle." Think of each decision you make as a thoughtful, mindful choice in that moment.

No one really has "complete freedom" unless they don't intend to plan ahead or to consider anyone else's freedom, or choices, or rights, or peace or safety.

-=-I feel like this is an issue. I feel like he will deliberately choose not to do things he really wants to do if his father or I can't be the ones helping him.-=-

I feel like that's not an issue.
If he's uncomfortable with strangers, that's safe and good! If he's comfortable with you, that's great! He will get older each day, each moment, and the safer he feels now, the safer he will be. Period. Safer he will be. Unless you decide that making yourself dangerous would be better for him, but that would be an error in thought and action, in my opinion.

-=-I feel like we have provided this safe little cocooned world for him, and rather than that making him stronger and better able to deal with the outside world it has made him weaker and less able to deal with the outside world. -=-

It seems you're looking for trouble. It's quite a negative view of a safe environment. Are you in a hurry to have him "deal with the outside world"? Are you planning to abandon him and leave him alone in the outside world?

If no, if you are NOT planning to abandon him, then you don't need any practice sessions in short-term abandonment now. If the cocoon analogy is to work, the creature stays in the cocoon until he doesn't fit anymore, and the cocoon falls away.

-=-I don't want to be the reason that my son turns into some kind of hermit or .... I don't know what. -=-
A hermit. Or a criminal. A murderer! A survivalist unabomber. Someone who stays home and creates video games. No, or builds gingerbread cabins in the woods and covers them with candy to lure in children!

*WHY* envision a hermit in place of a perfectly normal human who just wants to be with his parents?

-=-I could envision things like never getting his drivers license or never doing anything outside the home. help please.-=-

I can help.
Stop envisioning things like him never getting his drivers license or never doing anything outside the home. It's a waste of your energy, and while visions of a failed human of an unhappy teenager are clouding your vision, you can't see the child who lives with you at that moment.

http://sandradodd.com/moment

http://sandradodd.com/being/

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa

+++++> I have felt for a long time that I had no "deschooling" left to do, and that may be true academically. But I sure have something that I need to get over.-=-

I just told my friend this today- I feel like academically, I get all this, and I trust that my child is learning through life (and I see it).

However, I have so many wounds from my abusive childhood that trusting him and accepting him outside of academics is much harder, and seems to never end. There's always something new that triggers me and throws me for a loop.

I want to sincerely thank every single person who responded to my question. It helps a lot.

Lisa

Jenny Cyphers

***However, I have so many wounds from my abusive childhood that trusting him
and accepting him outside of academics is much harder, and seems to never end.
There's always something new that triggers me and throws me for a loop.***

Depending on the extent of your own childhood wounds and how that plays out in
your relationship with your children, getting that worked through should be a
high priority. Treating our own children in ways that we weren't treated can be
healing for sure, but some wounds are deep and sometimes come and surface when
you don't expect it.

This list can be soooo helpful at examining those triggers. Get it sooner than
later! If you want help in addressing those things, give details!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

I don't think Jenny means that this is a list for personal counseling.
It sounded like that to me for a second.

But finding triggers that set parents off during interactions with
children is a great reason to post details so that feedback about what
happened can be a resource for unschooling.

~Katherine



On 1/12/11, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
> ***However, I have so many wounds from my abusive childhood that trusting
> him
> and accepting him outside of academics is much harder, and seems to never
> end.
> There's always something new that triggers me and throws me for a loop.***
>
> Depending on the extent of your own childhood wounds and how that plays out
> in
> your relationship with your children, getting that worked through should be
> a
> high priority. Treating our own children in ways that we weren't treated
> can be
> healing for sure, but some wounds are deep and sometimes come and surface
> when
> you don't expect it.
>
> This list can be soooo helpful at examining those triggers. Get it sooner
> than
> later! If you want help in addressing those things, give details!
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't think Jenny means that this is a list for personal counseling.
It sounded like that to me for a second.-=-

It's okay to talk about what kinds of things do put the brakes on deschooling, though. Some parents are thrilled that they're all deschooled, and the relapses come along. We can talk about that.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

***It's okay to talk about what kinds of things do put the brakes on
deschooling, though. Some parents are thrilled that they're all deschooled, and
the relapses come along. We can talk about that.***

I was looking at it in terms of personal baggage that gets in the way of happy
unschooling. The most common thing I've seen is the triggers that adults have
when their kids do things they don't like. If that adult grew up in an
environment where there was anger and yelling, it can become an auto response
without even realizing it.

That is just ONE example that I've seen that does damage to relationships in
everyday interactions that can get in the way big time with unschooling.
Another big one is the shaming/blaming dynamic.

I don't know what each person deals with, but if a parent is being triggered
because of the damage that comes from growing up with abuse, it seems that in
specific ways, those triggers can stop, or at least subside so that unschooling
can happen more easily.

I really didn't mean it as personal counseling. I've seen unschooling parents
struggle with some of these things and it does impact unschooling.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't know what each person deals with, but if a parent is being triggered
because of the damage that comes from growing up with abuse, it seems that in
specific ways, those triggers can stop, or at least subside so that unschooling
can happen more easily.

-=-I really didn't mean it as personal counseling. I've seen unschooling parents
struggle with some of these things and it does impact unschooling.-=-

If a discussion here helps a list member get through a childhood memory or trauma, I don't care if they feel it was "personal counselling" (or group counselling, or peer counselling). I'm not objecting to that idea at all. We're not "providing therapy," but some people might experience therapeutic thoughts after reading here.

Yes, damage from abuse or other unclear, illogical crap can prevent deschooling.
But someone can do just fine until the child is nine, maybe--or twelve, or fifteen--and some childhood trauma that had lain dormant and still for 30 years can jump up and un-deschool them in a jiffy. :-)

This isn't a once-deschooled, always deschooled situation, neither for the kids nor the parents. There can be false steps and backslides and blockages.

http://sandradodd.com/issues

Sandra




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