Trying to wrap my mind around this
Natalie Bullock
For some reason I cannot explain, I continue to be pulled toward unschooling
and the problem is, I am afraid that I am too much a product of the
conventional method to really make it work well.
I did not come to homeschooling easily, and it was a decision borne of (what
I perceived as) a need, not a true desire, but we are wending our way
through our fourth homeschooling year. My husband still considers it a
necessary....well, not evil, but it's not desirable. I've come to love the
good things about it but I think I'm making it too hard for all of us.
However, while that's all true, I also knew that I have a particular disdain
for textbooks and even though I had no idea what I was looking for, I knew
it didn't involve textbooks. :)
I'm Natalie, and I am an introvert. On the Myers-Briggs test, I am as
introverted as it gets - there's just very little middle ground, so being
"on" all day was not an easy adjustment. Not so much now, but somehow I
still need my own time to recharge, which I think is hard anyway when you
have younger kids. I'm also very ADD - which for me means that I have a
VERY high need to be organized, and a very low ability to pull that off. I
have spent HOURS trying to devise schedules (even just the forms) that
create the kind of flow I think my children should have, and then never
using them because when I'm in the moment, I don't use them. It only
recently occurred to me that fighting against my natural abilities (and
letting go of some of the things that are endless struggles) isn't just
hurting me, it's wasting time - time for me, time with my children, etc.
I've been reading this list for a couple of weeks now, and when I find time,
reading more on Sandra's site, and it's the one about respecting and showing
love for your spouse that finally has prompted me to write.
My husband is not enamored of homeschooling. His dream would be to move to
an area where there are "good" schools so we can put our three children
(ages, 11, 9 and 6) in school, and so that I can go to work. He agrees that
our children are doing well, but he's just not someone who feels comfortable
doing things that are so far out of the ordinary. We are fortunate to have
some fantastic homeschool families, and that eases his mind a bit...but not
enough to grasp it enthusiastically and exclaim that it really is the right
thing after all.
There are some things in my mind that I cannot reconcile with this notion
that unschooling just feels *right*, and I hope that by putting them out
here, you will gently help me see things that maybe I'm missing.
The first one is that we belong to a charter school here in CA. It is
apparently very "friendly" to unschooling families, but there still needs to
be physical samples of work in each of four subject areas (math, language
arts, science, and social studies/history) that we are expected to submit
every three weeks. Samples can include pictures and videos, and for
example, math for the day can be a game instead of a worksheet...but
something has to be happening every day and we need to provide evidence that
it is happening. The benefit to this is purely financial (nearly $5K/school
year). We don't need it, but it definitely helps...and it is one way to
show my husband that we are meeting certain state standards. Intuitively,
this requirement makes learning less fun...but maybe it's just that I've
been trying to squeeze my own square peg into a round hole, and maybe square
pegs really can happily live within the requirements of the charter. Or
maybe it means that I just cannot really effectively unschool like this and
I shouldn't bother trying, but...I really think it would be so much better
if we could disentangle our (my!) schooly notions from the joy of learning.
The second consideration is that my middle child - my 9yo daughter - has
dyslexia, and some "experts" say in order to help her read, she needs
intensive phonics work. Others say she needs an intensive whole language
approach. OTOH, I think she needs everyone to back off. She shows so
little joy in anything academic or educational, and as for learning - she
says she wants to learn about wolves. If I ask her how she wants to learn,
she says, "By doing." She is very visual-spatial, and I am not. I feel
like whatever I've done is only increased her resistance. I want to undo
the damage, but considering the dyslexia is problematic, I don't really know
how. Would I be doing her a disservice by not giving intensive phonics
review? If she didn't want to read, it would be easy enough to put this off
for now, but she wants to read very, very much.
I want to let go of the bonds of planning forms and worrying about the order
in which one must learn science or reading, and just let it happen
naturally. I believe that it can, but there is an elusive "something" that
I still need - that would allow me to let this mere belief yield to an
enduring trust in the process and an appreciation for the journey. I can
see the other side, but I don't know how to get there.
Any advice?
Gratefully,
Natalie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and the problem is, I am afraid that I am too much a product of the
conventional method to really make it work well.
I did not come to homeschooling easily, and it was a decision borne of (what
I perceived as) a need, not a true desire, but we are wending our way
through our fourth homeschooling year. My husband still considers it a
necessary....well, not evil, but it's not desirable. I've come to love the
good things about it but I think I'm making it too hard for all of us.
However, while that's all true, I also knew that I have a particular disdain
for textbooks and even though I had no idea what I was looking for, I knew
it didn't involve textbooks. :)
I'm Natalie, and I am an introvert. On the Myers-Briggs test, I am as
introverted as it gets - there's just very little middle ground, so being
"on" all day was not an easy adjustment. Not so much now, but somehow I
still need my own time to recharge, which I think is hard anyway when you
have younger kids. I'm also very ADD - which for me means that I have a
VERY high need to be organized, and a very low ability to pull that off. I
have spent HOURS trying to devise schedules (even just the forms) that
create the kind of flow I think my children should have, and then never
using them because when I'm in the moment, I don't use them. It only
recently occurred to me that fighting against my natural abilities (and
letting go of some of the things that are endless struggles) isn't just
hurting me, it's wasting time - time for me, time with my children, etc.
I've been reading this list for a couple of weeks now, and when I find time,
reading more on Sandra's site, and it's the one about respecting and showing
love for your spouse that finally has prompted me to write.
My husband is not enamored of homeschooling. His dream would be to move to
an area where there are "good" schools so we can put our three children
(ages, 11, 9 and 6) in school, and so that I can go to work. He agrees that
our children are doing well, but he's just not someone who feels comfortable
doing things that are so far out of the ordinary. We are fortunate to have
some fantastic homeschool families, and that eases his mind a bit...but not
enough to grasp it enthusiastically and exclaim that it really is the right
thing after all.
There are some things in my mind that I cannot reconcile with this notion
that unschooling just feels *right*, and I hope that by putting them out
here, you will gently help me see things that maybe I'm missing.
The first one is that we belong to a charter school here in CA. It is
apparently very "friendly" to unschooling families, but there still needs to
be physical samples of work in each of four subject areas (math, language
arts, science, and social studies/history) that we are expected to submit
every three weeks. Samples can include pictures and videos, and for
example, math for the day can be a game instead of a worksheet...but
something has to be happening every day and we need to provide evidence that
it is happening. The benefit to this is purely financial (nearly $5K/school
year). We don't need it, but it definitely helps...and it is one way to
show my husband that we are meeting certain state standards. Intuitively,
this requirement makes learning less fun...but maybe it's just that I've
been trying to squeeze my own square peg into a round hole, and maybe square
pegs really can happily live within the requirements of the charter. Or
maybe it means that I just cannot really effectively unschool like this and
I shouldn't bother trying, but...I really think it would be so much better
if we could disentangle our (my!) schooly notions from the joy of learning.
The second consideration is that my middle child - my 9yo daughter - has
dyslexia, and some "experts" say in order to help her read, she needs
intensive phonics work. Others say she needs an intensive whole language
approach. OTOH, I think she needs everyone to back off. She shows so
little joy in anything academic or educational, and as for learning - she
says she wants to learn about wolves. If I ask her how she wants to learn,
she says, "By doing." She is very visual-spatial, and I am not. I feel
like whatever I've done is only increased her resistance. I want to undo
the damage, but considering the dyslexia is problematic, I don't really know
how. Would I be doing her a disservice by not giving intensive phonics
review? If she didn't want to read, it would be easy enough to put this off
for now, but she wants to read very, very much.
I want to let go of the bonds of planning forms and worrying about the order
in which one must learn science or reading, and just let it happen
naturally. I believe that it can, but there is an elusive "something" that
I still need - that would allow me to let this mere belief yield to an
enduring trust in the process and an appreciation for the journey. I can
see the other side, but I don't know how to get there.
Any advice?
Gratefully,
Natalie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 11/1/2010 12:06 AM, Natalie Bullock wrote:
strengths to support and pursue versus a bundle of weaknesses to try to
correct was unschooling my own children. It was a lot easier to see them
that way than to see myself that way, and it rubbed off on how i saw
myself (and my husband), over time.
I also was influenced positively by the book, "Refuse to Choose," by
Barbara Sher. I read that book and no longer thought of myself as
scattered or distracted. Supporting my own strengths rather than
fighting against them has been really amazing for me.
pam
> It onlySomething that really helped me see myself as having a bundle of
> recently occurred to me that fighting against my natural abilities (and
> letting go of some of the things that are endless struggles) isn't just
> hurting me, it's wasting time - time for me, time with my children, etc
strengths to support and pursue versus a bundle of weaknesses to try to
correct was unschooling my own children. It was a lot easier to see them
that way than to see myself that way, and it rubbed off on how i saw
myself (and my husband), over time.
I also was influenced positively by the book, "Refuse to Choose," by
Barbara Sher. I read that book and no longer thought of myself as
scattered or distracted. Supporting my own strengths rather than
fighting against them has been really amazing for me.
pam
k
>>>I also was influenced positively by the book, "Refuse to Choose," byBarbara Sher. I read that book and no longer thought of myself as
scattered or distracted. Supporting my own strengths rather than
fighting against them has been really amazing for me.<<<
Pam, I'm not adding much to what you have above but that's just the
book that I thought of in response to the thread questions in the
original post. Same book.
The actual advice of ways to organize are probably less helpful but
they are some ideas. The biggest help I got from Barbara's book is the
realization that I have a lot to offer in this thing called
unschooling. It is NOT a book that focuses on or that even mentions
unschooling but it was very encouraging to me, a person who personally
finds being organized both over- and underwhelming.
~Katherine
On 11/1/10, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> On 11/1/2010 12:06 AM, Natalie Bullock wrote:
>> It only
>> recently occurred to me that fighting against my natural abilities (and
>> letting go of some of the things that are endless struggles) isn't just
>> hurting me, it's wasting time - time for me, time with my children, etc
>
> Something that really helped me see myself as having a bundle of
> strengths to support and pursue versus a bundle of weaknesses to try to
> correct was unschooling my own children. It was a lot easier to see them
> that way than to see myself that way, and it rubbed off on how i saw
> myself (and my husband), over time.
>
> I also was influenced positively by the book, "Refuse to Choose," by
> Barbara Sher. I read that book and no longer thought of myself as
> scattered or distracted. Supporting my own strengths rather than
> fighting against them has been really amazing for me.
>
> pam
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
plaidpanties666
Natalie Bullock <nasb2pyrs@...> wrote:
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
http://sandradodd.com/dot/elvis
STart looking for the real learning that's going on all the time, when you're kids aren't doing anything that looks like homeschool - that's a place for You to start getting comfortable and get some ideas for how you can explain this unschooling craziness to your husband. If he's uncomfortable with homeschooling, then unschooling might seem like a crazy cult to him, so go slowly with that. Also, if you've been gung-ho about homeschooling your kids may be skeptical if you just quit - so you'll need to be able to reassure them, too.
If she wants help, what kind of help would she find reassuring? Would putting captions on the tv be enough for her to feel like she has some more tools at her disposal? Does she think she needs lessons?
If "phonics" (and different things are meant by that) seems excruciating to her, then no, don't do that, but recently I'm noticing teachers use "phonics" to mean something more like a managed vocabulary, where students learn a few words at a time and add to them. If that would reassure your dd, then its something to offer her. But also realize that some kids aren't ready to read until puberty! For some people all the necessary brain functions don't click until then - in that sense reading is an "adult" skill, its better to wait than push someone to read too early. Unschooled kids who read later do need some reassurance - after all, there's a lot of social pressure from other kids and extended family that links reading to intelligence.
With that in mind, its good to consider if your dd wants to read, or wants what reading "gives" her. Would she like some audio books? Would she like to be read to? Maybe she doesn't need to read right now, but to have mroe access to the world on her own terms.
---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)
>Samples can include pictures and videos, and forIt may be the problem is you don't have a strong enough grasp of what "learning" really is - that's not uncommon, especially for homeschoolers, since its easy to get all wrapped up in teaching and lose sight of how learning really happens. I'll give you a couple specific links to read and get you thinking, the first is about writing a "curriculum" to describe an unschooling life and the others are about how learning really works:
> example, math for the day can be a game instead of a worksheet...but
> something has to be happening every day and we need to provide evidence that
> it is happening.
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
http://sandradodd.com/dot/elvis
> physical samples of work in each of four subject areas (math, languageAnything to do with numbers, patterns, sequences, time, space, measurement, organization - that's math. Anything to do with stories (including movies and shows) and story telling (including dramatic play) is part of language arts. Telling jokes, comedy skits, even slapstick humor are all language arts for your purposes. Science - any thing with animals, food (cooking or eating), water, dirt, fire, air, can be science. Most outside play can be chalked up as science. Social studies - gosh this stuff if everywhere... what do y'all do during the day? Who do you hang out with? Do you watch tv? I bet there are tons of things you can use - were there just elections in your area? Pull some flyers out of the trash, you probably talked about them at some point if only to complain about junk mail. The existance of junk mail is a topic of "social studies" (economics, advertising, culture, culture wars, taste, norms... but you don't have to make a lesson about it, just realize you can't avoid those topics even if they only get a passing glance most of the time).
> arts, science, and social studies/history)
STart looking for the real learning that's going on all the time, when you're kids aren't doing anything that looks like homeschool - that's a place for You to start getting comfortable and get some ideas for how you can explain this unschooling craziness to your husband. If he's uncomfortable with homeschooling, then unschooling might seem like a crazy cult to him, so go slowly with that. Also, if you've been gung-ho about homeschooling your kids may be skeptical if you just quit - so you'll need to be able to reassure them, too.
>> I want to undoWholly unschooled kids who are also dyslexic learn to read. That's not a direct answer to your question, but this is an unschooling list, its not a great place to ask educational advice, if you see what I mean. I can give you my opinion as a former teacher of reading but that won't help you understand unschooling.
> the damage, but considering the dyslexia is problematic, I don't really know
> how. Would I be doing her a disservice by not giving intensive phonics
> review? If she didn't want to read, it would be easy enough to put this off
> for now, but she wants to read very, very much.
If she wants help, what kind of help would she find reassuring? Would putting captions on the tv be enough for her to feel like she has some more tools at her disposal? Does she think she needs lessons?
If "phonics" (and different things are meant by that) seems excruciating to her, then no, don't do that, but recently I'm noticing teachers use "phonics" to mean something more like a managed vocabulary, where students learn a few words at a time and add to them. If that would reassure your dd, then its something to offer her. But also realize that some kids aren't ready to read until puberty! For some people all the necessary brain functions don't click until then - in that sense reading is an "adult" skill, its better to wait than push someone to read too early. Unschooled kids who read later do need some reassurance - after all, there's a lot of social pressure from other kids and extended family that links reading to intelligence.
With that in mind, its good to consider if your dd wants to read, or wants what reading "gives" her. Would she like some audio books? Would she like to be read to? Maybe she doesn't need to read right now, but to have mroe access to the world on her own terms.
---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)
Regan
On 01/11/2010, at 6:06 PM, Natalie Bullock wrote:
People do not just flick the switch to unschooling. It takes making lots of more helpful choices. This you can do from any starting point. And some will take it further than others, but it all starts with being engaged in supporting your family.
Learning more about unschooling will help, but where and how to start? Quietly reading this list every day and bringing to your family some of the positive changes you learn about, will help enormously. There are websites full of wonderful unschooling information. There are unschooling books. Like anything else, you explore; open to new ideas and information, making changes that make sense, given the context of your family.
No need to concern yourself with notional prerequisites to taking the subject 'Wolves'. No need for lesson plans. Have fun with it. See where it takes you both. You might end up sewing wolf masks or getting interested in some of the wolf myths or bears or theatre or... Being interested enables learning to happen. Help to make it swirl through your lives. That is what unschooling parents do.
If her journey to reading has included being diagnosed as dyslexic and visual-spatial, having experts address her reading progress as a problem, having experts give prescriptions as to how to fix her 'problem' and having her mother implement some of the prescriptions, then her current desire to read may be mixed up with a desire to be doing what the people around her have lead her to believe she should be doing.
Start now to help her have some successes (and fun) with reading, since she wants to read. And continue to help and support her desires as she grows and changes and her needs and desires change.
I suspect that the ' elusive "something" ' that you're looking for is more understanding of unschooling. With more understanding you will be confident in what you're doing and why you're doing it. With conventional schooling and homeschooling, parents often don't question how to proceed - so many people are following the same patterns. Stepping outside those preset patterns requires parents to be observant and thoughtful participants in their childrens lives.
You're already questioning what you've been doing, noticing what's not helping. Learning more about unschooling will help you make decisions in the best interests of *your* family.
Debbie.
> For some reason I cannot explain, I continue to be pulled toward unschoolingDo things that make life better; more interesting, more fun. After some time doing this, you're then in a different position than you were when you started. You can then reassess how things are going then. If things could be better, then make some positive changes.
> and the problem is, I am afraid that I am too much a product of the
> conventional method to really make it work well.
People do not just flick the switch to unschooling. It takes making lots of more helpful choices. This you can do from any starting point. And some will take it further than others, but it all starts with being engaged in supporting your family.
>If you, at home with your children, are not clear about the benefits of what you are doing, it's not surprising that your husband is underwhelmed. Getting clear in yourself about how to best help your children learn and thrive would be a starting point if you want to move towards unschooling.
> My husband is not enamored of homeschooling. His dream would be to move to
> an area where there are "good" schools so we can put our three children
> (ages, 11, 9 and 6) in school, and so that I can go to work. He agrees that
> our children are doing well, but he's just not someone who feels comfortable
> doing things that are so far out of the ordinary. We are fortunate to have
> some fantastic homeschool families, and that eases his mind a bit...but not
> enough to grasp it enthusiastically and exclaim that it really is the right
> thing after all.
Learning more about unschooling will help, but where and how to start? Quietly reading this list every day and bringing to your family some of the positive changes you learn about, will help enormously. There are websites full of wonderful unschooling information. There are unschooling books. Like anything else, you explore; open to new ideas and information, making changes that make sense, given the context of your family.
> She shows so little joy in anything academic or educational, and as for learning - sheYou can help her to learn about wolves (or anything else) without even asking her how she wants to learn. They're interesting, what do you know about wolves? Go exploring together. Sooo many things you could do. Looking up pictures on the net would be a simple starting point. Take it further form there. You know her - what can you guess that might interest her? One of the delights of having children is participating in their interests.
> says she wants to learn about wolves. If I ask her how she wants to learn, she says, "By doing."
No need to concern yourself with notional prerequisites to taking the subject 'Wolves'. No need for lesson plans. Have fun with it. See where it takes you both. You might end up sewing wolf masks or getting interested in some of the wolf myths or bears or theatre or... Being interested enables learning to happen. Help to make it swirl through your lives. That is what unschooling parents do.
> my middle child - my 9yo daughter - hasIf she wants to read, then help her to read in ways that work for her now. Think creatively about 'reading' things that could bring her joy. Label items around the house together, write out a little story with words that she may know how to read. Print out the words to songs she knows and sing them together. Word and letter fridge magnets may be fun. Read logos. Make up logos. None of these ideas may be relevant to your situation but I hope that you can come up with some fun things that can help to address her desire to read.
> dyslexia, and some "experts" say in order to help her read, she needs
> intensive phonics work. Others say she needs an intensive whole language
> approach. OTOH, I think she needs everyone to back off.She is very visual-spatial, and I am not. I feel
> like whatever I've done is only increased her resistance. I want to undo
> the damage, but considering the dyslexia is problematic, I don't really know
> how. Would I be doing her a disservice by not giving intensive phonics
> review? If she didn't want to read, it would be easy enough to put this off
> for now, but she wants to read very, very much.
If her journey to reading has included being diagnosed as dyslexic and visual-spatial, having experts address her reading progress as a problem, having experts give prescriptions as to how to fix her 'problem' and having her mother implement some of the prescriptions, then her current desire to read may be mixed up with a desire to be doing what the people around her have lead her to believe she should be doing.
Start now to help her have some successes (and fun) with reading, since she wants to read. And continue to help and support her desires as she grows and changes and her needs and desires change.
>One foot in front of the other. Step by step. You cannot know what unschooling will look like for each of your children, just as you don't know what interests they will develop, who their friends will be, how tall they will be etc. You don't need to know. You need to help make now as vibrant and interesting and fun as it can be.
> I want to let go of the bonds of planning forms and worrying about the order
> in which one must learn science or reading, and just let it happen
> naturally. I believe that it can, but there is an elusive "something" that
> I still need - that would allow me to let this mere belief yield to an
> enduring trust in the process and an appreciation for the journey. I can
> see the other side, but I don't know how to get there.
I suspect that the ' elusive "something" ' that you're looking for is more understanding of unschooling. With more understanding you will be confident in what you're doing and why you're doing it. With conventional schooling and homeschooling, parents often don't question how to proceed - so many people are following the same patterns. Stepping outside those preset patterns requires parents to be observant and thoughtful participants in their childrens lives.
You're already questioning what you've been doing, noticing what's not helping. Learning more about unschooling will help you make decisions in the best interests of *your* family.
Debbie.
Natalie Bullock
I took some time to mull over the responses to my post earlier this week,
and I have to say that they've been illuminating and very helpful. I think
that part of my problem is that, at least based on learning style
assessment, my own learning style is very different than any of my
children...well, that, or I was able to accommodate regular schoolwork (when
I was in school, rather a long time ago) so easily that I've lost sight of
what really IS my style. An example would be the suggestions Debbie gives
WRT where we might find ourselves as she gives herself over to studying
wolves.
No need to concern yourself with notional prerequisites to taking the
subject 'Wolves'. No need for lesson plans. Have fun with it. See where it
takes you both. You might end up sewing wolf masks or getting interested in
some of the wolf myths or bears or theatre or...
My method - what would work for ME - would be to read a few books and/or
look up information online. Maybe I'd watch a documentary. It doesn't
readily come to me to consider sewing a wolf mask, nor would anything
inherently kinesthetic. I realize that those were examples, but I know
there's a whole world of opportunities and exciting ways to incorporate
learning out there...and if it doesn't come to me naturally, then,
naturally, I spend time looking for these things online. It's
...time-consuming. For myself, I need to relocate and bring forth my own
creative ability. It's not quite here, but I am fairly confident it's still
inside me somewhere.
I noticed that for so long, my first response - to just about anything - was
"no". I've been focusing on saying "yes" more often and while I'm certainly
not going to claim that we've had any sort of radical changes for the
better, I will say it felt very nice...and my children have noticed and
appreciated it. I've also talked to them about changing how we approach
learning and that I wanted to work on refocusing how we view learning vs.
"school" - that I don't want to recreate school at home so let's talk about
some things we might want to learn about today. Suddenly, I'm flooded with
so many requests that I get a little overloaded, but enthusiasm is always
better than misery, and the details will shake themselves out well enough, I
suppose.
There are still many things that I'm working through - thank you, Debbie,
for reminding (and reassuring) me that it's an incremental process. I have
a hard time with TV (not the documentaries, but definitely many of the shows
currently playing on the popular kids' channels) and games, not only
because, personally, I don't like them very much, but also because
practically, we have a small house and what might be interesting for one
child, is not likely going to be interesting to one or two of the others.
My son wants to watch anything to do with war (good gracious, but I loved
the recommendations in another thread on this list!), but my girls do not.
At all. My daughters might want to watch about wolves or horses, but my son
complains of the noise from the TV no matter where else he might be in the
house. Perhaps I should seek out information on a good pair of
noise-canceling earphones.
I think there's another challenge that I'm encountering - I really do like
to be in control. In a larger sense, I'm not (I so very much want to leave
our current state), but on the day-to-day scene, it comes down to "if I
can't control those things, then I guess I need to control these." My
children have been caught up in that, and only lately have I realized that,
and have started trying to disentangle my issues from how my children
experience ME. When I reflect on the kinds of memories I am making for
them, it has been a painful reminder that I've fallen short of my goal as a
parent, but that they're not grown, and there's no time like the present to
make THIS moment better. It occurs to me that maybe part of this journey is
also parenting myself. When I look at it that way, unschooling takes on a
whole different dimension and perhaps more than ever, I realize why I'm
drawn to make these changes - and why I feel how 'right' they are even
without fully understanding how to get there - because the child I was would
very much have liked to have been raised in an unschooling way. (I did say
thanks for reminding me about taking it one step at a time, right?)
Meredith, thank you for the links you included on what learning can look
like. I'm going to read them more than a few times - it's a bit like
unpeeling a banana, as each time I look at them, there's something I didn't
"see" before. I love and appreciate how you can frame so many everyday
things as learning opportunities - or how an everyday thing can become a
learning opportunity especially if you keep following rabbit trails. My
husband - and maybe even a little bit of who I still am - worries that it's
one thing to call reading a Dr. Seuss book on space as an example of
"learning", but if there's no recollection of any of it two days later, does
it count? On the one hand, I think that remembering something for a test in
school and forgetting it two days later...well, that's not any better at
all, and probably is worse. The beauty of a child-directed approach is that
it nurtures a child's enthusiasm for something that matters/is interestig to
them, which means the learning is more...real? and meaningful...and doesn't
waste a lot of time on the stuff they'd forget anyway. I know I didn't say
that very well. On the other hand, well...are there things you think your
child *should* know (besides, in the end, how to be a good person)?
Counting money? Multiplication tables? Something else? That need to
define "need to know" things might eventually dissipate, but it can't be
completely denied now. I can put it under the heading of future business,
but it's a prominent and present concern of my husband...and he's my
children's parent, too. This is the sort of thing for which I don't yet
have an answer - not that I expect anyone here to know, either, but I figure
I should put it out there anyway.
As for what my dd (with dyslexia) wants to do to aid in learning to
read...the answer is, for now, nothing. Or more specifically, to be left
alone to read quietly. I am okay with this but I guess I still worry if
there's something else I should be doing. I have read that many kids with
dyslexia seem to really pick up steam somewhere around age 11. For now, dd
is reading big books like the Maximum Ride series, but she misses a lot of
the content. It bothers her, but not enough to do "work" (like phonics or
other reading aid program) to help. Maybe that's a part of growing up and
allowing kids to realize what they need anyway. (I should disclose that she
has some visual processing problems - she has a convergence insufficiency
and hypertropia, which, once resolved [if resolved] may or may not reveal
that dyslexia was never the problem after all. But for now, she is REALLY
resistant to any sort of vision therapy. She also gets many headaches, and
I simply don't know if they are related to her visual problems or not.)
Pam and Katherine, I've requested a copy of that book from the library - I
appreciate the recommendation and look forward to reading it.
This is already terribly long, but I'm going to print it out, along with the
responses to my original post, and keep them handy, especially on those days
when workbooks look even a little appealing. :)
-Natalie (who is mostly kidding about the workbooks)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and I have to say that they've been illuminating and very helpful. I think
that part of my problem is that, at least based on learning style
assessment, my own learning style is very different than any of my
children...well, that, or I was able to accommodate regular schoolwork (when
I was in school, rather a long time ago) so easily that I've lost sight of
what really IS my style. An example would be the suggestions Debbie gives
WRT where we might find ourselves as she gives herself over to studying
wolves.
No need to concern yourself with notional prerequisites to taking the
subject 'Wolves'. No need for lesson plans. Have fun with it. See where it
takes you both. You might end up sewing wolf masks or getting interested in
some of the wolf myths or bears or theatre or...
My method - what would work for ME - would be to read a few books and/or
look up information online. Maybe I'd watch a documentary. It doesn't
readily come to me to consider sewing a wolf mask, nor would anything
inherently kinesthetic. I realize that those were examples, but I know
there's a whole world of opportunities and exciting ways to incorporate
learning out there...and if it doesn't come to me naturally, then,
naturally, I spend time looking for these things online. It's
...time-consuming. For myself, I need to relocate and bring forth my own
creative ability. It's not quite here, but I am fairly confident it's still
inside me somewhere.
I noticed that for so long, my first response - to just about anything - was
"no". I've been focusing on saying "yes" more often and while I'm certainly
not going to claim that we've had any sort of radical changes for the
better, I will say it felt very nice...and my children have noticed and
appreciated it. I've also talked to them about changing how we approach
learning and that I wanted to work on refocusing how we view learning vs.
"school" - that I don't want to recreate school at home so let's talk about
some things we might want to learn about today. Suddenly, I'm flooded with
so many requests that I get a little overloaded, but enthusiasm is always
better than misery, and the details will shake themselves out well enough, I
suppose.
There are still many things that I'm working through - thank you, Debbie,
for reminding (and reassuring) me that it's an incremental process. I have
a hard time with TV (not the documentaries, but definitely many of the shows
currently playing on the popular kids' channels) and games, not only
because, personally, I don't like them very much, but also because
practically, we have a small house and what might be interesting for one
child, is not likely going to be interesting to one or two of the others.
My son wants to watch anything to do with war (good gracious, but I loved
the recommendations in another thread on this list!), but my girls do not.
At all. My daughters might want to watch about wolves or horses, but my son
complains of the noise from the TV no matter where else he might be in the
house. Perhaps I should seek out information on a good pair of
noise-canceling earphones.
I think there's another challenge that I'm encountering - I really do like
to be in control. In a larger sense, I'm not (I so very much want to leave
our current state), but on the day-to-day scene, it comes down to "if I
can't control those things, then I guess I need to control these." My
children have been caught up in that, and only lately have I realized that,
and have started trying to disentangle my issues from how my children
experience ME. When I reflect on the kinds of memories I am making for
them, it has been a painful reminder that I've fallen short of my goal as a
parent, but that they're not grown, and there's no time like the present to
make THIS moment better. It occurs to me that maybe part of this journey is
also parenting myself. When I look at it that way, unschooling takes on a
whole different dimension and perhaps more than ever, I realize why I'm
drawn to make these changes - and why I feel how 'right' they are even
without fully understanding how to get there - because the child I was would
very much have liked to have been raised in an unschooling way. (I did say
thanks for reminding me about taking it one step at a time, right?)
Meredith, thank you for the links you included on what learning can look
like. I'm going to read them more than a few times - it's a bit like
unpeeling a banana, as each time I look at them, there's something I didn't
"see" before. I love and appreciate how you can frame so many everyday
things as learning opportunities - or how an everyday thing can become a
learning opportunity especially if you keep following rabbit trails. My
husband - and maybe even a little bit of who I still am - worries that it's
one thing to call reading a Dr. Seuss book on space as an example of
"learning", but if there's no recollection of any of it two days later, does
it count? On the one hand, I think that remembering something for a test in
school and forgetting it two days later...well, that's not any better at
all, and probably is worse. The beauty of a child-directed approach is that
it nurtures a child's enthusiasm for something that matters/is interestig to
them, which means the learning is more...real? and meaningful...and doesn't
waste a lot of time on the stuff they'd forget anyway. I know I didn't say
that very well. On the other hand, well...are there things you think your
child *should* know (besides, in the end, how to be a good person)?
Counting money? Multiplication tables? Something else? That need to
define "need to know" things might eventually dissipate, but it can't be
completely denied now. I can put it under the heading of future business,
but it's a prominent and present concern of my husband...and he's my
children's parent, too. This is the sort of thing for which I don't yet
have an answer - not that I expect anyone here to know, either, but I figure
I should put it out there anyway.
As for what my dd (with dyslexia) wants to do to aid in learning to
read...the answer is, for now, nothing. Or more specifically, to be left
alone to read quietly. I am okay with this but I guess I still worry if
there's something else I should be doing. I have read that many kids with
dyslexia seem to really pick up steam somewhere around age 11. For now, dd
is reading big books like the Maximum Ride series, but she misses a lot of
the content. It bothers her, but not enough to do "work" (like phonics or
other reading aid program) to help. Maybe that's a part of growing up and
allowing kids to realize what they need anyway. (I should disclose that she
has some visual processing problems - she has a convergence insufficiency
and hypertropia, which, once resolved [if resolved] may or may not reveal
that dyslexia was never the problem after all. But for now, she is REALLY
resistant to any sort of vision therapy. She also gets many headaches, and
I simply don't know if they are related to her visual problems or not.)
Pam and Katherine, I've requested a copy of that book from the library - I
appreciate the recommendation and look forward to reading it.
This is already terribly long, but I'm going to print it out, along with the
responses to my original post, and keep them handy, especially on those days
when workbooks look even a little appealing. :)
-Natalie (who is mostly kidding about the workbooks)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 7, 2010, at 1:08 AM, Natalie Bullock wrote:
effect of using it.
If it's something that's not useful right now why would they need to
learn it? Would learning to drive a car be useful right now? Why would
anything else that's future useful be needed earlier than it's needed?
If it's something they won't need, then they'll waste time learning it
that could have been spent on something that's useful right now.
I think what scares people about kids not learning future important
stuff now is that they have picked up from school that learning is
long and hard. But what's hard is learning stuff that you don't see a
point in. If someone loves cars and a new engine design comes out,
they're going to suck in whatever gets put in front of them and reach
for more. If someone who has no interest in cars is made to memorize
the workings of the new engine, it's going to be a huge, boring task
and they'll try to do as little as they can get away with, for
something that will fade quickly and leave them feeling even less
interested in cars.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> On the other hand, well...are there things you think yourIf they find something useful they'll get better at it as a side
> child *should* know (besides, in the end, how to be a good person)?
> Counting money? Multiplication tables? Something else?
effect of using it.
If it's something that's not useful right now why would they need to
learn it? Would learning to drive a car be useful right now? Why would
anything else that's future useful be needed earlier than it's needed?
If it's something they won't need, then they'll waste time learning it
that could have been spent on something that's useful right now.
I think what scares people about kids not learning future important
stuff now is that they have picked up from school that learning is
long and hard. But what's hard is learning stuff that you don't see a
point in. If someone loves cars and a new engine design comes out,
they're going to suck in whatever gets put in front of them and reach
for more. If someone who has no interest in cars is made to memorize
the workings of the new engine, it's going to be a huge, boring task
and they'll try to do as little as they can get away with, for
something that will fade quickly and leave them feeling even less
interested in cars.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Natalie Bullock
On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
with the fact that there are plenty of things we have to do in life that we
might not want to do (like on a job), but that we have to do it anyway, and
that order and discipline are good habits to cultivate - and by extension,
school and education are reasonable and appropriate avenues to ensuring that
those "values" are instilled in us even at an early age. However, the me
that is me right now has come to realize that people are far more amenable
and adaptable to things when the need or desire is brought to the fore, just
as they can be far more resistant (rather than cooperative) when it is a
requirement without an apparent purpose. I also know that school is no
bargain - it works for some kids (or maybe it's that some kids figure out
how to work the system), but it is certainly no guarantee that a "schooled"
individual is going to be a perfectly organized and disciplined widget.
out just how unschooling-friendly they really are. It might be that it's
entirely compatible, or it might be that we don't stay with them after all.
I think what scares people about kids not learning future important
a) it might be needed sooner than you expect (eg., be prepared), and b)
unschooling is a really unfortunate term. There's an element of
confrontation in it, even, especially for those who accept the system
without question (and who cannot imagine questioning the system), and even
for those who can see the system doesn't work, but who think that tweaking
it a little and doing it at home makes it better (that was sort of me...sort
of). I have spent some time this evening re-reading the articles posted by
Meredith above. I also looked up "Sandra Dodd" on Facebook and found her
article, http://sandradodd.com/deschooling on that page's "wall", after
which I followed some of the links at the bottom of that article, and some
of the links on those, etc... and while I definitely can't say I *know*
what I'm doing, I think I "get" it a little more of it than I did earlier.
This one was maybe my favorite: http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
and there is a lot here, too:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/deschooling/deschoolingmom.html
Interesting aside that sort of illustrates the value of letting a child take
the lead: my son, who is 11.5 years old, has been a history buff since he
was a wee little guy. He told me that he wanted to study American History
this year so I bought a textbook (just for a timeline), and another
texty-ish book, and a teacher's guide...and you know what? There's no joy
in it for him. I think I just need to help him find some books/movies/etc.
and let him approach it in his own way, which is apparently MUCH more
effective than what I've been doing. He is an unschooling success story
just waiting to happen - waiting for mom to figure it out. I'm willing to
bet that my girls are, too.
Before I forget - the one thing that has been the hardest to "get" is that
unschooling isn't just about learning/modifying how we view
learning/education. It's a huge shift from the generally traditional view
of parenting (especially, but not limited to, authoritarian, "I'm the parent
- that' why" parenting) to something that's just...different. Really
different. I'm still working out how to make that shift in my head. I
think it will just take time - I think I can connect many, maybe most, of
the dots, but not yet all of them.
Thanks again,
Natalie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>The "daughter of a Marine" in me knows how to answer this - it has to do
> If they find something useful they'll get better at it as a side
> effect of using it.
>
> If it's something that's not useful right now why would they need to
> learn it? Would learning to drive a car be useful right now? Why would
> anything else that's future useful be needed earlier than it's needed?
>
with the fact that there are plenty of things we have to do in life that we
might not want to do (like on a job), but that we have to do it anyway, and
that order and discipline are good habits to cultivate - and by extension,
school and education are reasonable and appropriate avenues to ensuring that
those "values" are instilled in us even at an early age. However, the me
that is me right now has come to realize that people are far more amenable
and adaptable to things when the need or desire is brought to the fore, just
as they can be far more resistant (rather than cooperative) when it is a
requirement without an apparent purpose. I also know that school is no
bargain - it works for some kids (or maybe it's that some kids figure out
how to work the system), but it is certainly no guarantee that a "schooled"
individual is going to be a perfectly organized and disciplined widget.
> If it's something they won't need, then they'll waste time learning itAgreed. Except for the charter school thing, but I guess I'm going to find
> that could have been spent on something that's useful right now.
>
out just how unschooling-friendly they really are. It might be that it's
entirely compatible, or it might be that we don't stay with them after all.
I think what scares people about kids not learning future important
> stuff now is that they have picked up from school that learning isI think what scares people about not learning future important stuff is that
> long and hard. But what's hard is learning stuff that you don't see a
> point in.
>
a) it might be needed sooner than you expect (eg., be prepared), and b)
unschooling is a really unfortunate term. There's an element of
confrontation in it, even, especially for those who accept the system
without question (and who cannot imagine questioning the system), and even
for those who can see the system doesn't work, but who think that tweaking
it a little and doing it at home makes it better (that was sort of me...sort
of). I have spent some time this evening re-reading the articles posted by
Meredith above. I also looked up "Sandra Dodd" on Facebook and found her
article, http://sandradodd.com/deschooling on that page's "wall", after
which I followed some of the links at the bottom of that article, and some
of the links on those, etc... and while I definitely can't say I *know*
what I'm doing, I think I "get" it a little more of it than I did earlier.
This one was maybe my favorite: http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
and there is a lot here, too:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/deschooling/deschoolingmom.html
Interesting aside that sort of illustrates the value of letting a child take
the lead: my son, who is 11.5 years old, has been a history buff since he
was a wee little guy. He told me that he wanted to study American History
this year so I bought a textbook (just for a timeline), and another
texty-ish book, and a teacher's guide...and you know what? There's no joy
in it for him. I think I just need to help him find some books/movies/etc.
and let him approach it in his own way, which is apparently MUCH more
effective than what I've been doing. He is an unschooling success story
just waiting to happen - waiting for mom to figure it out. I'm willing to
bet that my girls are, too.
Before I forget - the one thing that has been the hardest to "get" is that
unschooling isn't just about learning/modifying how we view
learning/education. It's a huge shift from the generally traditional view
of parenting (especially, but not limited to, authoritarian, "I'm the parent
- that' why" parenting) to something that's just...different. Really
different. I'm still working out how to make that shift in my head. I
think it will just take time - I think I can connect many, maybe most, of
the dots, but not yet all of them.
Thanks again,
Natalie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The "daughter of a Marine" in me knows how to answer this - it has
to do
with the fact that there are plenty of things we have to do in life
that we
might not want to do (like on a job), but that we have to do it
anyway,-=-
I would like to say that as the parent of three now-grown unschoolers,
everything is a choice. Becoming a marine is a choice. Remaining a
marine is a choice. If you see the world as a maze of "no choice,"
you will have a harder time understanding unschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
You don't "have to" do anything.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to do
with the fact that there are plenty of things we have to do in life
that we
might not want to do (like on a job), but that we have to do it
anyway,-=-
I would like to say that as the parent of three now-grown unschoolers,
everything is a choice. Becoming a marine is a choice. Remaining a
marine is a choice. If you see the world as a maze of "no choice,"
you will have a harder time understanding unschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
You don't "have to" do anything.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
-----Original Message-----
From: Natalie Bullock <nasb2pyrs@...>
I've also talked to them about changing how we approach
learning and that I wanted to work on refocusing how we view learning vs.
"school" - that I don't want to recreate school at home so let's talk about
some things we might want to learn about today.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I have a bumper sticker:
WE UNSCHOOL
because we refuse to recreate a failed system
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I think there's another challenge that I'm encountering - I really do like
to be in control. In a larger sense, I'm not (I so very much want to leave
our current state), but on the day-to-day scene, it comes down to "if I
can't control those things, then I guess I need to control these."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I too am a control freak. So I had to have something else to control.
I started an unscholing conference. When that was not enough, we got a guide dog puppy (or three) to raise. When that was not enough, I became a gardener. That was still not enough, so we got chickens. That may be enough, especially with the new puppy! <bwg>
Easy solution. Find something else to control.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Natalie Bullock <nasb2pyrs@...>
I've also talked to them about changing how we approach
learning and that I wanted to work on refocusing how we view learning vs.
"school" - that I don't want to recreate school at home so let's talk about
some things we might want to learn about today.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I have a bumper sticker:
WE UNSCHOOL
because we refuse to recreate a failed system
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I think there's another challenge that I'm encountering - I really do like
to be in control. In a larger sense, I'm not (I so very much want to leave
our current state), but on the day-to-day scene, it comes down to "if I
can't control those things, then I guess I need to control these."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I too am a control freak. So I had to have something else to control.
I started an unscholing conference. When that was not enough, we got a guide dog puppy (or three) to raise. When that was not enough, I became a gardener. That was still not enough, so we got chickens. That may be enough, especially with the new puppy! <bwg>
Easy solution. Find something else to control.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
--- It doesn't readily come to me to consider sewing a wolf mask, nor would anything
inherently kinesthetic. I realize that those were examples, but I know
there's a whole world of opportunities and exciting ways to incorporate
learning out there...and if it doesn't come to me naturally, then,
naturally, I spend time looking for these things online. It's
...time-consuming. For myself, I need to relocate and bring forth my own
creative ability. It's not quite here, but I am fairly confident it's still
inside me somewhere.----- AND----Suddenly, I'm flooded with
Of course, there are tons of great websites and books with craft ideas for kids, and I do offer some ideas from outside sources, or leave a webpage open or book on her desk. For the most part, however, the seed comes from her and I assist with gathering and information, if asked. Also, be fully prepared that an idea you offer will get spun beyond recognition--that's a wonderful thing to watch!
My dd has been working on dioramas for the past few weeks after being inspired by a trip to the Natural History museum. She asks for help looking things up online, and in books we have at home, because she's interested in making some parts realistic. One of the dioramas is made with her many dinosaur figures (some of which are now covered in red paint (blood)), but she was unhappy with the ground cover she drew. She's always saved rocks, leaves, sticks, dead bugs, etc.... so she dug out a bunch of Ginkgo leaves she'd stashed away earlier this year and glued them to sticks (trees) because she remembered that Ginkgo is a prehistoric plant......something we talked about MONTHS ago, for a brief moment, on a hike.
------ (I should disclose that she has some visual processing problems - she has a convergence insufficiency and hypertropia, which, once resolved [if resolved] may or may not reveal that dyslexia was never the problem after all. But for now, she is REALLY resistant to any sort of vision therapy. She also gets many headaches, and I simply don't know if they are related to her visual problems or not.)-------
I've only recently discovered that a large part of my own headaches come from vision issues. My brother is becoming increasingly convinced that his dyslexia was a vision issue that he corrected when he learned to read Hebrew (right to left). We've found an amazing eye doctor (and former unschooling dad) who has been a wealth of information and assistance. He has a lot of good information on his website and in his book. I wonder if your daughter is interested, if the exercises could be something she does at home, whenever she chooses?
Here is his info: http://www.gallopintovision.com/
Brie
inherently kinesthetic. I realize that those were examples, but I know
there's a whole world of opportunities and exciting ways to incorporate
learning out there...and if it doesn't come to me naturally, then,
naturally, I spend time looking for these things online. It's
...time-consuming. For myself, I need to relocate and bring forth my own
creative ability. It's not quite here, but I am fairly confident it's still
inside me somewhere.----- AND----Suddenly, I'm flooded with
> so many requests that I get a little overloaded--------I wanted to chime in here real quick with an idea I've suggested often to new unschoolers--it's something I learned from living with my daughter, who is highly creative and hands-on. Have a few boxes or baskets full of materials they can go to without having to ask for supplies. Recyclables (egg cartons, coffee cans, flattened cardboard cereal boxes, assorted packaging materials) are wonderful for all kinds of things. Put together a box of fabric scraps, large and small (old clothing and sheets are a great start). Glue, scissors, paint/markers, aluminum foil, modeling clay, wire, pompoms, googly eyes, feathers, craft foam, magazine pictures........the "creative stuff," from what I can tell, is pretty natural in many kids, especially if they have a host of materials to freely choose from.
Of course, there are tons of great websites and books with craft ideas for kids, and I do offer some ideas from outside sources, or leave a webpage open or book on her desk. For the most part, however, the seed comes from her and I assist with gathering and information, if asked. Also, be fully prepared that an idea you offer will get spun beyond recognition--that's a wonderful thing to watch!
My dd has been working on dioramas for the past few weeks after being inspired by a trip to the Natural History museum. She asks for help looking things up online, and in books we have at home, because she's interested in making some parts realistic. One of the dioramas is made with her many dinosaur figures (some of which are now covered in red paint (blood)), but she was unhappy with the ground cover she drew. She's always saved rocks, leaves, sticks, dead bugs, etc.... so she dug out a bunch of Ginkgo leaves she'd stashed away earlier this year and glued them to sticks (trees) because she remembered that Ginkgo is a prehistoric plant......something we talked about MONTHS ago, for a brief moment, on a hike.
------ (I should disclose that she has some visual processing problems - she has a convergence insufficiency and hypertropia, which, once resolved [if resolved] may or may not reveal that dyslexia was never the problem after all. But for now, she is REALLY resistant to any sort of vision therapy. She also gets many headaches, and I simply don't know if they are related to her visual problems or not.)-------
I've only recently discovered that a large part of my own headaches come from vision issues. My brother is becoming increasingly convinced that his dyslexia was a vision issue that he corrected when he learned to read Hebrew (right to left). We've found an amazing eye doctor (and former unschooling dad) who has been a wealth of information and assistance. He has a lot of good information on his website and in his book. I wonder if your daughter is interested, if the exercises could be something she does at home, whenever she chooses?
Here is his info: http://www.gallopintovision.com/
Brie
Lisa E Biesemeyer
Hi, Natalie,
Have you read The Gift of Dyslexia: Why Some of the Smartest People Can't Read
and How They Can Learn by Ronald D. Davis (2010)? I have not read this
particular book on dyslexia, but I read a review of it as well as this synopsis
(below), and I think it sounds particularly wonderful and fascinating. It may be
useful to you and your daughter.
http://www.dyslexia.com/bookstore/giftbook.htm
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
________________________________
From: Natalie Bullock <nasb2pyrs@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, November 6, 2010 10:08:12 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Trying to wrap my mind around this
I took some time to mull over the responses to my post earlier this week,
and I have to say that they've been illuminating and very helpful. I think
that part of my problem is that, at least based on learning style
assessment, my own learning style is very different than any of my
children...well, that, or I was able to accommodate regular schoolwork (when
I was in school, rather a long time ago) so easily that I've lost sight of
what really IS my style. An example would be the suggestions Debbie gives
WRT where we might find ourselves as she gives herself over to studying
wolves.
No need to concern yourself with notional prerequisites to taking the
subject 'Wolves'. No need for lesson plans. Have fun with it. See where it
takes you both. You might end up sewing wolf masks or getting interested in
some of the wolf myths or bears or theatre or...
My method - what would work for ME - would be to read a few books and/or
look up information online. Maybe I'd watch a documentary. It doesn't
readily come to me to consider sewing a wolf mask, nor would anything
inherently kinesthetic. I realize that those were examples, but I know
there's a whole world of opportunities and exciting ways to incorporate
learning out there...and if it doesn't come to me naturally, then,
naturally, I spend time looking for these things online. It's
...time-consuming. For myself, I need to relocate and bring forth my own
creative ability. It's not quite here, but I am fairly confident it's still
inside me somewhere.
I noticed that for so long, my first response - to just about anything - was
"no". I've been focusing on saying "yes" more often and while I'm certainly
not going to claim that we've had any sort of radical changes for the
better, I will say it felt very nice...and my children have noticed and
appreciated it. I've also talked to them about changing how we approach
learning and that I wanted to work on refocusing how we view learning vs.
"school" - that I don't want to recreate school at home so let's talk about
some things we might want to learn about today. Suddenly, I'm flooded with
so many requests that I get a little overloaded, but enthusiasm is always
better than misery, and the details will shake themselves out well enough, I
suppose.
There are still many things that I'm working through - thank you, Debbie,
for reminding (and reassuring) me that it's an incremental process. I have
a hard time with TV (not the documentaries, but definitely many of the shows
currently playing on the popular kids' channels) and games, not only
because, personally, I don't like them very much, but also because
practically, we have a small house and what might be interesting for one
child, is not likely going to be interesting to one or two of the others.
My son wants to watch anything to do with war (good gracious, but I loved
the recommendations in another thread on this list!), but my girls do not.
At all. My daughters might want to watch about wolves or horses, but my son
complains of the noise from the TV no matter where else he might be in the
house. Perhaps I should seek out information on a good pair of
noise-canceling earphones.
I think there's another challenge that I'm encountering - I really do like
to be in control. In a larger sense, I'm not (I so very much want to leave
our current state), but on the day-to-day scene, it comes down to "if I
can't control those things, then I guess I need to control these." My
children have been caught up in that, and only lately have I realized that,
and have started trying to disentangle my issues from how my children
experience ME. When I reflect on the kinds of memories I am making for
them, it has been a painful reminder that I've fallen short of my goal as a
parent, but that they're not grown, and there's no time like the present to
make THIS moment better. It occurs to me that maybe part of this journey is
also parenting myself. When I look at it that way, unschooling takes on a
whole different dimension and perhaps more than ever, I realize why I'm
drawn to make these changes - and why I feel how 'right' they are even
without fully understanding how to get there - because the child I was would
very much have liked to have been raised in an unschooling way. (I did say
thanks for reminding me about taking it one step at a time, right?)
Meredith, thank you for the links you included on what learning can look
like. I'm going to read them more than a few times - it's a bit like
unpeeling a banana, as each time I look at them, there's something I didn't
"see" before. I love and appreciate how you can frame so many everyday
things as learning opportunities - or how an everyday thing can become a
learning opportunity especially if you keep following rabbit trails. My
husband - and maybe even a little bit of who I still am - worries that it's
one thing to call reading a Dr. Seuss book on space as an example of
"learning", but if there's no recollection of any of it two days later, does
it count? On the one hand, I think that remembering something for a test in
school and forgetting it two days later...well, that's not any better at
all, and probably is worse. The beauty of a child-directed approach is that
it nurtures a child's enthusiasm for something that matters/is interestig to
them, which means the learning is more...real? and meaningful...and doesn't
waste a lot of time on the stuff they'd forget anyway. I know I didn't say
that very well. On the other hand, well...are there things you think your
child *should* know (besides, in the end, how to be a good person)?
Counting money? Multiplication tables? Something else? That need to
define "need to know" things might eventually dissipate, but it can't be
completely denied now. I can put it under the heading of future business,
but it's a prominent and present concern of my husband...and he's my
children's parent, too. This is the sort of thing for which I don't yet
have an answer - not that I expect anyone here to know, either, but I figure
I should put it out there anyway.
As for what my dd (with dyslexia) wants to do to aid in learning to
read...the answer is, for now, nothing. Or more specifically, to be left
alone to read quietly. I am okay with this but I guess I still worry if
there's something else I should be doing. I have read that many kids with
dyslexia seem to really pick up steam somewhere around age 11. For now, dd
is reading big books like the Maximum Ride series, but she misses a lot of
the content. It bothers her, but not enough to do "work" (like phonics or
other reading aid program) to help. Maybe that's a part of growing up and
allowing kids to realize what they need anyway. (I should disclose that she
has some visual processing problems - she has a convergence insufficiency
and hypertropia, which, once resolved [if resolved] may or may not reveal
that dyslexia was never the problem after all. But for now, she is REALLY
resistant to any sort of vision therapy. She also gets many headaches, and
I simply don't know if they are related to her visual problems or not.)
Pam and Katherine, I've requested a copy of that book from the library - I
appreciate the recommendation and look forward to reading it.
This is already terribly long, but I'm going to print it out, along with the
responses to my original post, and keep them handy, especially on those days
when workbooks look even a little appealing. :)
-Natalie (who is mostly kidding about the workbooks)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have you read The Gift of Dyslexia: Why Some of the Smartest People Can't Read
and How They Can Learn by Ronald D. Davis (2010)? I have not read this
particular book on dyslexia, but I read a review of it as well as this synopsis
(below), and I think it sounds particularly wonderful and fascinating. It may be
useful to you and your daughter.
http://www.dyslexia.com/bookstore/giftbook.htm
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
________________________________
From: Natalie Bullock <nasb2pyrs@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, November 6, 2010 10:08:12 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Trying to wrap my mind around this
I took some time to mull over the responses to my post earlier this week,
and I have to say that they've been illuminating and very helpful. I think
that part of my problem is that, at least based on learning style
assessment, my own learning style is very different than any of my
children...well, that, or I was able to accommodate regular schoolwork (when
I was in school, rather a long time ago) so easily that I've lost sight of
what really IS my style. An example would be the suggestions Debbie gives
WRT where we might find ourselves as she gives herself over to studying
wolves.
No need to concern yourself with notional prerequisites to taking the
subject 'Wolves'. No need for lesson plans. Have fun with it. See where it
takes you both. You might end up sewing wolf masks or getting interested in
some of the wolf myths or bears or theatre or...
My method - what would work for ME - would be to read a few books and/or
look up information online. Maybe I'd watch a documentary. It doesn't
readily come to me to consider sewing a wolf mask, nor would anything
inherently kinesthetic. I realize that those were examples, but I know
there's a whole world of opportunities and exciting ways to incorporate
learning out there...and if it doesn't come to me naturally, then,
naturally, I spend time looking for these things online. It's
...time-consuming. For myself, I need to relocate and bring forth my own
creative ability. It's not quite here, but I am fairly confident it's still
inside me somewhere.
I noticed that for so long, my first response - to just about anything - was
"no". I've been focusing on saying "yes" more often and while I'm certainly
not going to claim that we've had any sort of radical changes for the
better, I will say it felt very nice...and my children have noticed and
appreciated it. I've also talked to them about changing how we approach
learning and that I wanted to work on refocusing how we view learning vs.
"school" - that I don't want to recreate school at home so let's talk about
some things we might want to learn about today. Suddenly, I'm flooded with
so many requests that I get a little overloaded, but enthusiasm is always
better than misery, and the details will shake themselves out well enough, I
suppose.
There are still many things that I'm working through - thank you, Debbie,
for reminding (and reassuring) me that it's an incremental process. I have
a hard time with TV (not the documentaries, but definitely many of the shows
currently playing on the popular kids' channels) and games, not only
because, personally, I don't like them very much, but also because
practically, we have a small house and what might be interesting for one
child, is not likely going to be interesting to one or two of the others.
My son wants to watch anything to do with war (good gracious, but I loved
the recommendations in another thread on this list!), but my girls do not.
At all. My daughters might want to watch about wolves or horses, but my son
complains of the noise from the TV no matter where else he might be in the
house. Perhaps I should seek out information on a good pair of
noise-canceling earphones.
I think there's another challenge that I'm encountering - I really do like
to be in control. In a larger sense, I'm not (I so very much want to leave
our current state), but on the day-to-day scene, it comes down to "if I
can't control those things, then I guess I need to control these." My
children have been caught up in that, and only lately have I realized that,
and have started trying to disentangle my issues from how my children
experience ME. When I reflect on the kinds of memories I am making for
them, it has been a painful reminder that I've fallen short of my goal as a
parent, but that they're not grown, and there's no time like the present to
make THIS moment better. It occurs to me that maybe part of this journey is
also parenting myself. When I look at it that way, unschooling takes on a
whole different dimension and perhaps more than ever, I realize why I'm
drawn to make these changes - and why I feel how 'right' they are even
without fully understanding how to get there - because the child I was would
very much have liked to have been raised in an unschooling way. (I did say
thanks for reminding me about taking it one step at a time, right?)
Meredith, thank you for the links you included on what learning can look
like. I'm going to read them more than a few times - it's a bit like
unpeeling a banana, as each time I look at them, there's something I didn't
"see" before. I love and appreciate how you can frame so many everyday
things as learning opportunities - or how an everyday thing can become a
learning opportunity especially if you keep following rabbit trails. My
husband - and maybe even a little bit of who I still am - worries that it's
one thing to call reading a Dr. Seuss book on space as an example of
"learning", but if there's no recollection of any of it two days later, does
it count? On the one hand, I think that remembering something for a test in
school and forgetting it two days later...well, that's not any better at
all, and probably is worse. The beauty of a child-directed approach is that
it nurtures a child's enthusiasm for something that matters/is interestig to
them, which means the learning is more...real? and meaningful...and doesn't
waste a lot of time on the stuff they'd forget anyway. I know I didn't say
that very well. On the other hand, well...are there things you think your
child *should* know (besides, in the end, how to be a good person)?
Counting money? Multiplication tables? Something else? That need to
define "need to know" things might eventually dissipate, but it can't be
completely denied now. I can put it under the heading of future business,
but it's a prominent and present concern of my husband...and he's my
children's parent, too. This is the sort of thing for which I don't yet
have an answer - not that I expect anyone here to know, either, but I figure
I should put it out there anyway.
As for what my dd (with dyslexia) wants to do to aid in learning to
read...the answer is, for now, nothing. Or more specifically, to be left
alone to read quietly. I am okay with this but I guess I still worry if
there's something else I should be doing. I have read that many kids with
dyslexia seem to really pick up steam somewhere around age 11. For now, dd
is reading big books like the Maximum Ride series, but she misses a lot of
the content. It bothers her, but not enough to do "work" (like phonics or
other reading aid program) to help. Maybe that's a part of growing up and
allowing kids to realize what they need anyway. (I should disclose that she
has some visual processing problems - she has a convergence insufficiency
and hypertropia, which, once resolved [if resolved] may or may not reveal
that dyslexia was never the problem after all. But for now, she is REALLY
resistant to any sort of vision therapy. She also gets many headaches, and
I simply don't know if they are related to her visual problems or not.)
Pam and Katherine, I've requested a copy of that book from the library - I
appreciate the recommendation and look forward to reading it.
This is already terribly long, but I'm going to print it out, along with the
responses to my original post, and keep them handy, especially on those days
when workbooks look even a little appealing. :)
-Natalie (who is mostly kidding about the workbooks)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
As Ron Davis has a "program" to sell and links dyslexia with all
manner of "learning disabilities", I'd take the advice of unschooling
parents and how their kids ("diagnosed" or not) learned to read instead.
http://sandradodd.com/reading
Here's an article by an unschooling dad, diagnosed as dyslexic:
http://sandradodd.com/r/mikedyslexia
And from Sandra's "Myths" page:
This quote came from a discussion on MySpace and was sent to me by one
of the participants (not by the author). People do believe these
things, though, and it's just not so.
With dyslexia you HAVE to be trained in how to get past it. this isnt
just some person that could read at some point. if he isnt trained HOW
to see letters in groups that form words he never will be able to do
it and it will ALWAYS be frustrating for him. since neither of you are
very aware of dyslexia I am going to tell you that some of the
unschooling pracitces just do not apply to dyslexics. the whole
concept of not insisting they do things doesnt work. people with
dyslexia are forced to do these types of eye and mind training so that
at some point things suddenly get easier for them.
Robin B.
manner of "learning disabilities", I'd take the advice of unschooling
parents and how their kids ("diagnosed" or not) learned to read instead.
http://sandradodd.com/reading
Here's an article by an unschooling dad, diagnosed as dyslexic:
http://sandradodd.com/r/mikedyslexia
And from Sandra's "Myths" page:
This quote came from a discussion on MySpace and was sent to me by one
of the participants (not by the author). People do believe these
things, though, and it's just not so.
With dyslexia you HAVE to be trained in how to get past it. this isnt
just some person that could read at some point. if he isnt trained HOW
to see letters in groups that form words he never will be able to do
it and it will ALWAYS be frustrating for him. since neither of you are
very aware of dyslexia I am going to tell you that some of the
unschooling pracitces just do not apply to dyslexics. the whole
concept of not insisting they do things doesnt work. people with
dyslexia are forced to do these types of eye and mind training so that
at some point things suddenly get easier for them.
Robin B.
> Have you read The Gift of Dyslexia: Why Some of the Smartest People[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Can't Read
> and How They Can Learn by Ronald D. Davis (2010)?
Robin Bentley
To clarify (as my e-mail program shmushed it altogether)...
>This is Sandra's commentary:
> And from Sandra's "Myths" page:
>This is the quote that's the myth:
> This quote came from a discussion on MySpace and was sent to me by one
> of the participants (not by the author). People do believe these
> things, though, and it's just not so.
> With dyslexia you HAVE to be trained in how to get past it. this isntRobin B.
> just some person that could read at some point. if he isnt trained HOW
> to see letters in groups that form words he never will be able to do
> it and it will ALWAYS be frustrating for him. since neither of you are
> very aware of dyslexia I am going to tell you that some of the
> unschooling pracitces just do not apply to dyslexics. the whole
> concept of not insisting they do things doesnt work. people with
> dyslexia are forced to do these types of eye and mind training so that
> at some point things suddenly get easier for them.
>
sheeboo2
I'm glad you shared that belief and its myth-y-ness, Robin. I should have been clearer in my post too, and explained that All the interventions in the world were of little help for my brother. Having everyone back-off, and learning to read in Hebrew (because he wanted to), when we moved to Israel, was the best thing for him. It was only later, in reading some of the material I had from Steve Gallop, that he realized he had probably re-trained his mind, via his eyes moving in an "unnatural" direction, to decipher text more easily. The point is, it happened gently because he was engaged in something that he chose to do for his own reasons; it wasn't something done to him or something he was made to do.
Brie
Brie
Regan
On 07/11/2010, at 4:08 PM, Natalie Bullock wrote:
Unschooling parents don't look for ways to "incorporate learning" into their children's days. Learning is not separate from the rest of life. It doesn't need to have time set aside and plans made for it. Unschooling parents support and facilitate their children's interests; notice what's engaging to them, notice potentially interesting paths diverging from there. Help to make those available to them. Rich, complex learning will happen.
Do you see how different that is from getting online to look up an interesting way to present a unit study? Even when the child chooses the topic of the unit study, if the parent then takes over how it's to be explored, it's very likely that the child's initial interest will wane. They may even then be seen as fickle, when in reality they keep having their interests messed with - slowed down, sped up, gone in wrong directions. That's no fun.
And it can take quite a lot of time and effort to be the co-ordinator of the unit study, as you've found out. And meanwhile real learning opportunities are being missed.
Let your children explore freely with support. When you've shaken off the belief that you need to direct their learning, you will be free to engage with your children as a supportive partner in their lives; helping them to thrive, exploring the world with enthusiasm; learning all sorts of things along the way and making meaningful connections amongst it all.
I smiled at your comment about how sewing a wolf mask is not something you'd naturally think of. I am not drawn to sewing either. However, I have sewn in my role as an unschooling parent - dolls, a couple of recorder cases, several costumes; including a two-person cow costume for a local musical dd was in. She was cast as the rear half of a dancing cow (yees :-), and so a big cow costume was needed. Although I'm not interested in sewing as a pastime for me, I am interested in supporting my dd's passions, so I focus on how to make exciting stuff happen.
And just in case it helps you to understand unschooling a bit better, in all those sewing projects, my dd was only involved in ways that she wanted to be, which was mostly only using the end product. She has seen me measure, cut out and sew, and she's driven the sewing machine fast on scrap fabric, helped to choose colours and styles but she hasn't wanted to sew much herself. I'm sure that she's picked up quite a lot just because she's been around when projects have been happening, but she hasn't stopped what she's been doing to explore it.
There is no need for my dd to delve into sewing if she's not interested. I'm sure that she would pick it up quite quickly if she wanted to take it further, but she may never want to. She knows how to do lots of other things that *have* grabbed her interest. Watching interests grow and develop and intermingle with other interests and blossom all over the place, is one of the delights of unschooling.
Debbie.
>I doubt that your focus on learning styles will be helpful to you in unschooling. I don't think about my family's learning syles when considering what to bring to our lives - I think of what will be fun and interesting; what might engage or amaze or amuse. With interest and engagement, learning will happen naturally and maximally.
> My method - what would work for ME - would be to read a few books and/or
> look up information online. Maybe I'd watch a documentary. It doesn't
> readily come to me to consider sewing a wolf mask, nor would anything
> inherently kinesthetic.
> I realize that those were examples, but I knowAs you deschool more, you will learn that you don't need to look for ways to "incorporate learning". Learning will happen anyway. And if you're goal-directed in your approach to your children's learning, you and your children will all miss out on so much. Your home will be more like a school than a place of learning ;-)
> there's a whole world of opportunities and exciting ways to incorporate
> learning out there...and if it doesn't come to me naturally, then,
> naturally, I spend time looking for these things online. It's
> ...time-consuming. For myself, I need to relocate and bring forth my own
> creative ability. It's not quite here, but I am fairly confident it's still
> inside me somewhere.
Unschooling parents don't look for ways to "incorporate learning" into their children's days. Learning is not separate from the rest of life. It doesn't need to have time set aside and plans made for it. Unschooling parents support and facilitate their children's interests; notice what's engaging to them, notice potentially interesting paths diverging from there. Help to make those available to them. Rich, complex learning will happen.
Do you see how different that is from getting online to look up an interesting way to present a unit study? Even when the child chooses the topic of the unit study, if the parent then takes over how it's to be explored, it's very likely that the child's initial interest will wane. They may even then be seen as fickle, when in reality they keep having their interests messed with - slowed down, sped up, gone in wrong directions. That's no fun.
And it can take quite a lot of time and effort to be the co-ordinator of the unit study, as you've found out. And meanwhile real learning opportunities are being missed.
Let your children explore freely with support. When you've shaken off the belief that you need to direct their learning, you will be free to engage with your children as a supportive partner in their lives; helping them to thrive, exploring the world with enthusiasm; learning all sorts of things along the way and making meaningful connections amongst it all.
I smiled at your comment about how sewing a wolf mask is not something you'd naturally think of. I am not drawn to sewing either. However, I have sewn in my role as an unschooling parent - dolls, a couple of recorder cases, several costumes; including a two-person cow costume for a local musical dd was in. She was cast as the rear half of a dancing cow (yees :-), and so a big cow costume was needed. Although I'm not interested in sewing as a pastime for me, I am interested in supporting my dd's passions, so I focus on how to make exciting stuff happen.
And just in case it helps you to understand unschooling a bit better, in all those sewing projects, my dd was only involved in ways that she wanted to be, which was mostly only using the end product. She has seen me measure, cut out and sew, and she's driven the sewing machine fast on scrap fabric, helped to choose colours and styles but she hasn't wanted to sew much herself. I'm sure that she's picked up quite a lot just because she's been around when projects have been happening, but she hasn't stopped what she's been doing to explore it.
There is no need for my dd to delve into sewing if she's not interested. I'm sure that she would pick it up quite quickly if she wanted to take it further, but she may never want to. She knows how to do lots of other things that *have* grabbed her interest. Watching interests grow and develop and intermingle with other interests and blossom all over the place, is one of the delights of unschooling.
Debbie.
>
Natalie Bullock
I am going to try to stay offline for most of the day, but I couldn't help
reading this thread. :)
Kelly - I like that bumper sticker! If I did bumper stickers, I'd hope to
sport one of those one day. I couldn't do it now - not honestly - but I can
aspire. :) I also like how you've channeled your inner control freak! No
way I'd try to manage a conference - much too much organization required
(I'd be lost!), but I keep "planning" to get to work gardening. Right now,
my raw material is rock hard, "baked" and very rocky dirt, but my children
and I have been perusing some books on fun ways to remake yards so that
they're really kid-friendly, and I have lots of ideas. Getting those ideas
into action = very hard for me. I think perhaps today would be a good time
to start.
Brie, I have LOTS of craft supplies, but they are scattered all over, out of
sight and not easily accessible. Perhaps purchasing a few big containers
and placing them all in there, within easy view and reach, would be better.
My daughter made a birthday cake the other day by cutting out paper and
forming it into a 3-tier round cake (well, cakes) that she's not yet
decorated; it rests on a little paper table she also made. I love how she
sees those things. Thanks for the link to the vision site; I'll look at
that later this evening.
Lisa, I have Ron's book - the one you mentioned. I did the eval exercise
with my daughter, and...she was definitely not receptive. She didn't want
to do it, and it didn't make sense to her. I've been put off by his very
expensive (and apparently, only moderately successful) program. One of the
things he wants children to do is to make the words in clay. My daughter
almost cried at the mere suggestion, so even if it were a wildly successful
method, if she's that resistant, it wouldn't work for her anyway. Not
especially while she doesn't want to do it.
Robin, I appreciate the information (and clarification) on that myth. I
also think I've read that for many kids who have dyslexia, age 11 seems to
be a common age when they see big improvements in reading. Whether that
will be true or not for my daughter, she seems to do best if she does it on
her own terms. Brie, although I don't necessarily foresee learning Hebrew
(but it sounds kinda cool to me - I love languages), your comment about what
worked best for your brother was for people to back off...well, yeah, that's
what has worked best for my daughter so far, too. I think that is what she
needs me to keep doing. :)
Debbie - SO MUCH good stuff in your last response!
Let your children explore freely with support. When you've shaken off the
to meditate on that today.
And yes, in response to seeing the difference between even a
parent-choreographed attempt at creating a unit study even on something a
child is interested in, I see the difference now. My question is - if my
daughter says she wants to study the ocean, and none of the things I bring
to her really capture her attention, then where do we go with that? She's
6, so I would imagine I need to provide *something*. I could pull out the
books I have, and we could sit down on the computer together, but as the
ocean is 3 hours from here, it would take a bit of planning to get there
(but we do manage now and then - visited some tide pools last month...and
learned that some shoes are just not good for walking on those slippery
rocks, ahem). I have also heard of the concept of "strewing", which
provided a sort of missing link for me a couple months ago. I think...maybe
I am overthinking it all.
(And I enjoyed your paragraph about sewing; in our case, I don't know how to
sew well, although my daughter and I did work on a sort of collaborative
effort with a more sewing-capable friend to make a Southern Belle type of
dress for dd. :) Both of my girls would probably be happy if I sewed for
them all day. Maybe we'll try that this week. I think I have enough
thread. ;)
So much else I could write, but I am going to turn off the computer now and
go clear away some of the rocks in my yard. There's a metaphor there...
Thank you all,
Natalie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reading this thread. :)
Kelly - I like that bumper sticker! If I did bumper stickers, I'd hope to
sport one of those one day. I couldn't do it now - not honestly - but I can
aspire. :) I also like how you've channeled your inner control freak! No
way I'd try to manage a conference - much too much organization required
(I'd be lost!), but I keep "planning" to get to work gardening. Right now,
my raw material is rock hard, "baked" and very rocky dirt, but my children
and I have been perusing some books on fun ways to remake yards so that
they're really kid-friendly, and I have lots of ideas. Getting those ideas
into action = very hard for me. I think perhaps today would be a good time
to start.
Brie, I have LOTS of craft supplies, but they are scattered all over, out of
sight and not easily accessible. Perhaps purchasing a few big containers
and placing them all in there, within easy view and reach, would be better.
My daughter made a birthday cake the other day by cutting out paper and
forming it into a 3-tier round cake (well, cakes) that she's not yet
decorated; it rests on a little paper table she also made. I love how she
sees those things. Thanks for the link to the vision site; I'll look at
that later this evening.
Lisa, I have Ron's book - the one you mentioned. I did the eval exercise
with my daughter, and...she was definitely not receptive. She didn't want
to do it, and it didn't make sense to her. I've been put off by his very
expensive (and apparently, only moderately successful) program. One of the
things he wants children to do is to make the words in clay. My daughter
almost cried at the mere suggestion, so even if it were a wildly successful
method, if she's that resistant, it wouldn't work for her anyway. Not
especially while she doesn't want to do it.
Robin, I appreciate the information (and clarification) on that myth. I
also think I've read that for many kids who have dyslexia, age 11 seems to
be a common age when they see big improvements in reading. Whether that
will be true or not for my daughter, she seems to do best if she does it on
her own terms. Brie, although I don't necessarily foresee learning Hebrew
(but it sounds kinda cool to me - I love languages), your comment about what
worked best for your brother was for people to back off...well, yeah, that's
what has worked best for my daughter so far, too. I think that is what she
needs me to keep doing. :)
Debbie - SO MUCH good stuff in your last response!
Let your children explore freely with support. When you've shaken off the
> belief that you need to direct their learning, you will be free to engageI...I love this. It is a core statement, isn't it? I think I'm just going
> with your children as a supportive partner in their lives; helping them to
> thrive, exploring the world with enthusiasm; learning all sorts of things
> along the way and making meaningful connections amongst it all.
>
to meditate on that today.
And yes, in response to seeing the difference between even a
parent-choreographed attempt at creating a unit study even on something a
child is interested in, I see the difference now. My question is - if my
daughter says she wants to study the ocean, and none of the things I bring
to her really capture her attention, then where do we go with that? She's
6, so I would imagine I need to provide *something*. I could pull out the
books I have, and we could sit down on the computer together, but as the
ocean is 3 hours from here, it would take a bit of planning to get there
(but we do manage now and then - visited some tide pools last month...and
learned that some shoes are just not good for walking on those slippery
rocks, ahem). I have also heard of the concept of "strewing", which
provided a sort of missing link for me a couple months ago. I think...maybe
I am overthinking it all.
(And I enjoyed your paragraph about sewing; in our case, I don't know how to
sew well, although my daughter and I did work on a sort of collaborative
effort with a more sewing-capable friend to make a Southern Belle type of
dress for dd. :) Both of my girls would probably be happy if I sewed for
them all day. Maybe we'll try that this week. I think I have enough
thread. ;)
So much else I could write, but I am going to turn off the computer now and
go clear away some of the rocks in my yard. There's a metaphor there...
Thank you all,
Natalie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***My method - what would work for ME - would be to read a few books and/or
look up information online. Maybe I'd watch a documentary. It doesn't
readily come to me to consider sewing a wolf mask, nor would anything
inherently kinesthetic.***
Something that I've found interesting, is that, a lot of what works for ME was
largely what school trained me to do. The farther along I get away from school,
and the more I watch my kids learn, the easier it is to see the multi faceted
ways in which a thing can be done, or knowledge can be had and used. There is a
point after the deschooling process, at least for me, where I just saw the world
different. Our kids are much better at this since they've either had way less
school or no school at all. A kid whose parents don't own a sewing machine, may
never think to sew a mask, but they might make one out of paper. You'll find
that the farther you are along in deschooling, the more your kids will
spontaneously do things like that. They will play with their world and whatever
is in it, so keep interesting things in their world that are easily accessible.
***I've been focusing on saying "yes" more often and while I'm certainly
not going to claim that we've had any sort of radical changes for the
better, I will say it felt very nice...and my children have noticed and
appreciated it. ***
That is the sort of radical change that will change everything. It will
permeate the house and shift people's thinking. If the answers become "yes",
then kids will start thinking in terms of how to go about doing something,
instead of in terms of how to go around your "no" or accept your "no" and move
no further. It's the sort of change that changes everything, even if it doesn't
feel radical. Probably better for it to not feel radical. It can seep into
their lives and their thoughts. That part is about attitude and how our
attitudes and thoughts affect actions.
***I have
a hard time with TV (not the documentaries, but definitely many of the shows
currently playing on the popular kids' channels) and games, not only
because, personally, I don't like them very much, but also because
practically, we have a small house and what might be interesting for one
child, is not likely going to be interesting to one or two of the others.***
We have TV's and computers in just about every room in our house. We could all
watch or do something in separate rooms and be undisturbed if we wanted to.
Mostly though, it's more easy and flowing than that. We find things in common
and watch things together a lot. This part will even out after a while. The
more you let go, the easier it will be for them to find ways to get along with
each other in that regard.
***That need to
define "need to know" things might eventually dissipate, but it can't be
completely denied now. I can put it under the heading of future business,
but it's a prominent and present concern of my husband***
The older my kids have gotten, the easier it was for my husband to see the
learning and relax. More than that, what he saw was how much kinder our kids
were compared to school kids, how much more confident and relaxed they are/were,
how much better they got along with others and navigated life easier. The
learning and all that stuff seemed like it wasn't as huge in that glaring part
of how are kids compared to schooled kids. Our oldest is 16 and her school
friends rely on her for word definitions and information and how to spell and
what to do when they are bored. My husband sees these things and gets it, gets
how it is ALL about the unschooling.
***I have read that many kids with
dyslexia seem to really pick up steam somewhere around age 11. For now, dd
is reading big books like the Maximum Ride series, but she misses a lot of
the content. It bothers her, but not enough to do "work" (like phonics or
other reading aid program) to help. Maybe that's a part of growing up and
allowing kids to realize what they need anyway. ***
Seriously consider books on cd or mp3's. Book for book my oldest had "heard"
and absorbed far more than the average school kid. She didn't need to read the
words on paper. She did a lot of reading in games and online, that by the time
she DID pick up a book and read it, it was a manga, she had a large vocabulary
and was familiar enough with written text that she went straight into reading
and understanding. There wasn't a struggle for her.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
look up information online. Maybe I'd watch a documentary. It doesn't
readily come to me to consider sewing a wolf mask, nor would anything
inherently kinesthetic.***
Something that I've found interesting, is that, a lot of what works for ME was
largely what school trained me to do. The farther along I get away from school,
and the more I watch my kids learn, the easier it is to see the multi faceted
ways in which a thing can be done, or knowledge can be had and used. There is a
point after the deschooling process, at least for me, where I just saw the world
different. Our kids are much better at this since they've either had way less
school or no school at all. A kid whose parents don't own a sewing machine, may
never think to sew a mask, but they might make one out of paper. You'll find
that the farther you are along in deschooling, the more your kids will
spontaneously do things like that. They will play with their world and whatever
is in it, so keep interesting things in their world that are easily accessible.
***I've been focusing on saying "yes" more often and while I'm certainly
not going to claim that we've had any sort of radical changes for the
better, I will say it felt very nice...and my children have noticed and
appreciated it. ***
That is the sort of radical change that will change everything. It will
permeate the house and shift people's thinking. If the answers become "yes",
then kids will start thinking in terms of how to go about doing something,
instead of in terms of how to go around your "no" or accept your "no" and move
no further. It's the sort of change that changes everything, even if it doesn't
feel radical. Probably better for it to not feel radical. It can seep into
their lives and their thoughts. That part is about attitude and how our
attitudes and thoughts affect actions.
***I have
a hard time with TV (not the documentaries, but definitely many of the shows
currently playing on the popular kids' channels) and games, not only
because, personally, I don't like them very much, but also because
practically, we have a small house and what might be interesting for one
child, is not likely going to be interesting to one or two of the others.***
We have TV's and computers in just about every room in our house. We could all
watch or do something in separate rooms and be undisturbed if we wanted to.
Mostly though, it's more easy and flowing than that. We find things in common
and watch things together a lot. This part will even out after a while. The
more you let go, the easier it will be for them to find ways to get along with
each other in that regard.
***That need to
define "need to know" things might eventually dissipate, but it can't be
completely denied now. I can put it under the heading of future business,
but it's a prominent and present concern of my husband***
The older my kids have gotten, the easier it was for my husband to see the
learning and relax. More than that, what he saw was how much kinder our kids
were compared to school kids, how much more confident and relaxed they are/were,
how much better they got along with others and navigated life easier. The
learning and all that stuff seemed like it wasn't as huge in that glaring part
of how are kids compared to schooled kids. Our oldest is 16 and her school
friends rely on her for word definitions and information and how to spell and
what to do when they are bored. My husband sees these things and gets it, gets
how it is ALL about the unschooling.
***I have read that many kids with
dyslexia seem to really pick up steam somewhere around age 11. For now, dd
is reading big books like the Maximum Ride series, but she misses a lot of
the content. It bothers her, but not enough to do "work" (like phonics or
other reading aid program) to help. Maybe that's a part of growing up and
allowing kids to realize what they need anyway. ***
Seriously consider books on cd or mp3's. Book for book my oldest had "heard"
and absorbed far more than the average school kid. She didn't need to read the
words on paper. She did a lot of reading in games and online, that by the time
she DID pick up a book and read it, it was a manga, she had a large vocabulary
and was familiar enough with written text that she went straight into reading
and understanding. There wasn't a struggle for her.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
OK Maybe I can't remember the first post really well but I see ou wrote your
daugther is only 6??!!!!!
Is that the daughter you are certain is dislexic because she cannot read yet????
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
daugther is only 6??!!!!!
Is that the daughter you are certain is dislexic because she cannot read yet????
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
It's Natalie's middle child - 9 years old <g>.
And nine (as well as six) can be young for some kids to read - it
depends on the kid.
Robin B.
And nine (as well as six) can be young for some kids to read - it
depends on the kid.
Robin B.
> OK Maybe I can't remember the first post really well but I see ou
> wrote your
> daugther is only 6??!!!!!
> Is that the daughter you are certain is dislexic because she cannot
> read yet????
>
Jenny Cyphers
***I appreciate the information (and clarification) on that myth. I
also think I've read that for many kids who have dyslexia, age 11 seems to
be a common age when they see big improvements in reading. Whether that
will be true or not for my daughter, she seems to do best if she does it on
her own terms.***
She 9 now, if I remember correctly. That's 2 yrs. Not a very long time really.
She's had damage done to her, pressure to read and resistance. If it were me,
I'd back way off and not even mention anything to do with reading at all, don't
talk about it, don't analyze her reading abilities, do nothing about it,
seriously, and MAYBE she'll read by the time she's 11. My daughter's first book
was manga, read from right to left, it totally makes sense that it would happen
that way. Once she mastered that, she was able to read left to right.
I never had her diagnosed, so it's only a guess, based on what I know of it and
what I observed my daughter doing, that there was any sort of dyslexia going on.
No amount of cajoling would have made her learn better or faster how to read.
No amount of forced letter formation of any kind would have helped her write
her numbers the right direction. Using the internet and keyboard were very
useful tools for her. They simply don't turn words and letters around. When
people do that on facebook, my daughter knows immediately what it says without
trying at all, her brain just automatically can read things backwards, turned
upside down, etc. It's kinda cool! It's a wonderful visual skill that she has
that lends itself well to all kinds of spatial reasoning and understanding!
It's also no surprise to me that she's good at puzzles and sewing and pattern
making.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
also think I've read that for many kids who have dyslexia, age 11 seems to
be a common age when they see big improvements in reading. Whether that
will be true or not for my daughter, she seems to do best if she does it on
her own terms.***
She 9 now, if I remember correctly. That's 2 yrs. Not a very long time really.
She's had damage done to her, pressure to read and resistance. If it were me,
I'd back way off and not even mention anything to do with reading at all, don't
talk about it, don't analyze her reading abilities, do nothing about it,
seriously, and MAYBE she'll read by the time she's 11. My daughter's first book
was manga, read from right to left, it totally makes sense that it would happen
that way. Once she mastered that, she was able to read left to right.
I never had her diagnosed, so it's only a guess, based on what I know of it and
what I observed my daughter doing, that there was any sort of dyslexia going on.
No amount of cajoling would have made her learn better or faster how to read.
No amount of forced letter formation of any kind would have helped her write
her numbers the right direction. Using the internet and keyboard were very
useful tools for her. They simply don't turn words and letters around. When
people do that on facebook, my daughter knows immediately what it says without
trying at all, her brain just automatically can read things backwards, turned
upside down, etc. It's kinda cool! It's a wonderful visual skill that she has
that lends itself well to all kinds of spatial reasoning and understanding!
It's also no surprise to me that she's good at puzzles and sewing and pattern
making.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
Not her 6 yo...
She said this in her first post...
"The second consideration is that my middle child - my 9yo daughter - has
dyslexia..."
heather
On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 4:03 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...
She said this in her first post...
"The second consideration is that my middle child - my 9yo daughter - has
dyslexia..."
heather
On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 4:03 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...
> wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> OK Maybe I can't remember the first post really well but I see ou wrote
> your
> daugther is only 6??!!!!!
> Is that the daughter you are certain is dislexic because she cannot read
> yet????
>
Robin Bentley
> My question is - if myI don't know many 6 year olds that would say "I want to study the
> daughter says she wants to study the ocean, and none of the things I
> bring
> to her really capture her attention, then where do we go with that?
> She's 6, so I would imagine I need to provide *something*.
ocean"! Sometimes, they say "Look, Mom!" about finding a cool picture
or show about ocean life. Or they want to go swimming or play on a
beach. That doesn't mean you have to jump on it and get everything
humanly possible about oceans and swimming and beaches! That *does*
smack of unit study.
You could look around for shows on Discovery Channel or National
Geographic Channel. Let her know what time it's on. You could ask if
she wants to watch it with you. It's completely okay if she says no,
*even* if she'd indicated a prior interest. Now she knows you're
helping her. Now she knows about options. It's the same with books,
internet sites, the sound of ocean waves on CD, aquariums, the ocean
itself. All available; none compulsory.
Just keep an eye out for things she might like. Keep her interests
(and your other kids' interests) in mind. And bring cool things into
the house that *you* like and leave them around. Get really interested
in something yourself and share it with your kids, if they're
interested. Show them *you're* interesting - and still learning.
> I could pull out theSure. Only if she wants to do that.
> books I have, and we could sit down on the computer together
> but as theYou could plan a vacation there sometime. Plan to get some rock shoes
> ocean is 3 hours from here, it would take a bit of planning to get
> there
> (but we do manage now and then - visited some tide pools last
> month...and
> learned that some shoes are just not good for walking on those
> slippery
> rocks, ahem).
beforehand!
> I have also heard of the concept of "strewing", whichThe term was coined by Sandra Dodd, the list owner. Here's her page on
> provided a sort of missing link for me a couple months ago. I
> think...maybe
> I am overthinking it all.
strewing, with lots of links:
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
>What would they want you to sew?
> (And I enjoyed your paragraph about sewing; in our case, I don't
> know how to
> sew well, although my daughter and I did work on a sort of
> collaborative
> effort with a more sewing-capable friend to make a Southern Belle
> type of
> dress for dd. :) Both of my girls would probably be happy if I
> sewed for
> them all day.
> Maybe we'll try that this week. I think I have enoughMaybe *you* should try that this week.
> thread. ;)
Do you have material? Patterns? A sewing machine? Ideas? It might be a
fun shopping trip!
Robin B.
lalow
> Seriously consider books on cd or mp3's. Book for book my oldest had "heard"My oldest is only 9, and he isnt reading alot yet. An aquantance the other day was discussing how they are having their 8 year old tested for dyslexia and what it looks like and honestly everything she said sounded like my son... oh and me as well. I learned to read by school standards kind of late. But often schools are worried that if a child isnt reading his vocabulary will be behind other kids and he wont be getting the same or as much information etc. My 9 year old absolutely loves stories and being read to and books on tape and honestly picks up so much more information that way than I ever have.
> and absorbed far more than the average school kid. She didn't need to read the
> words on paper. She did a lot of reading in games and online, that by the time
> she DID pick up a book and read it, it was a manga, she had a large vocabulary
> and was familiar enough with written text that she went straight into reading
> and understanding. There wasn't a struggle for her.
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-No amount of cajoling would have made her learn better or faster
how to read.
No amount of forced letter formation of any kind would have helped her
write
her numbers the right direction. -=-
This is true of every child.
Some children are ready to learn to read when the force and cajoling
are going on at school.
Some people are ready to get well when the witch doctor dances and
chants.
Some children are messed up by school.
Some people die in spite of witch doctors.
Rather than looking at school, or at any correlations about teaching,
spend some time looking at natural learning, and looking at your own
child to see what she's learning and how.
-=- It's a wonderful visual skill that she has
that lends itself well to all kinds of spatial reasoning and
understanding!
It's also no surprise to me that she's good at puzzles and sewing and
pattern
making.-=-
There are people who read easily and early who are good at spatial
reasoning too, though. It's true there seem to be sets of skills,
genetically speaking, that can go together, but there are also other
combinations of skills.
"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
http://sandradodd.com/interview
Sandra
how to read.
No amount of forced letter formation of any kind would have helped her
write
her numbers the right direction. -=-
This is true of every child.
Some children are ready to learn to read when the force and cajoling
are going on at school.
Some people are ready to get well when the witch doctor dances and
chants.
Some children are messed up by school.
Some people die in spite of witch doctors.
Rather than looking at school, or at any correlations about teaching,
spend some time looking at natural learning, and looking at your own
child to see what she's learning and how.
-=- It's a wonderful visual skill that she has
that lends itself well to all kinds of spatial reasoning and
understanding!
It's also no surprise to me that she's good at puzzles and sewing and
pattern
making.-=-
There are people who read easily and early who are good at spatial
reasoning too, though. It's true there seem to be sets of skills,
genetically speaking, that can go together, but there are also other
combinations of skills.
"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
http://sandradodd.com/interview
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-I doubt that your focus on learning styles will be helpful to you
in unschooling. I don't think about my family's learning syles when
considering what to bring to our lives - I think of what will be fun
and interesting; what might engage or amaze or amuse. With interest
and engagement, learning will happen naturally and maximally. -=-
True.
And if one child is more verbal than another, that child will do more
verbal learning in the same situation, with the same materials or
input, from which another child might be learning more tactilely or
visually.
I'm not "a foodie." I know it will really bother some of my friends
when I get home and they ask if I ate this or that, and I don't know.
I'm not learning the names of food. I'm trying to save all my
learning energy for the names of people. (There are some names I'm
having a hard time with, and I care more about people than food.) I
don't learn by tasting. :-) Some people do. It's not that I can't
taste things or I don't have preferences, but I'm more interested in
the social stories of the foods--which is more formal, which is
casual, which is home-food which is fancy-restaurant food, how it's
normally eaten. Here in India, they wash hands before a meal--many
houses (and the restaurant I was in yesterday) have a special sink
near where they eat that's just for washing hands. Afterwards they
wash hands and rinse their mouths out at that same sink. That's
more interesting to me than the food itself. No one could keep me
from my own preferences and interests, and they can't "make" me learn
other aspects that I'm not so interested in.
So if you provide situations and materials and input, each child will
learn in her own way those things she's interested in. The more
opportunities, the better, but don't "have your feelings hanging out"
about whether the kids love what you bring (videos, books, web sites,
visits, people, games, objects). They might not be interested in what
you thought they would be interested in. Don't take it personally.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/museum
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in unschooling. I don't think about my family's learning syles when
considering what to bring to our lives - I think of what will be fun
and interesting; what might engage or amaze or amuse. With interest
and engagement, learning will happen naturally and maximally. -=-
True.
And if one child is more verbal than another, that child will do more
verbal learning in the same situation, with the same materials or
input, from which another child might be learning more tactilely or
visually.
I'm not "a foodie." I know it will really bother some of my friends
when I get home and they ask if I ate this or that, and I don't know.
I'm not learning the names of food. I'm trying to save all my
learning energy for the names of people. (There are some names I'm
having a hard time with, and I care more about people than food.) I
don't learn by tasting. :-) Some people do. It's not that I can't
taste things or I don't have preferences, but I'm more interested in
the social stories of the foods--which is more formal, which is
casual, which is home-food which is fancy-restaurant food, how it's
normally eaten. Here in India, they wash hands before a meal--many
houses (and the restaurant I was in yesterday) have a special sink
near where they eat that's just for washing hands. Afterwards they
wash hands and rinse their mouths out at that same sink. That's
more interesting to me than the food itself. No one could keep me
from my own preferences and interests, and they can't "make" me learn
other aspects that I'm not so interested in.
So if you provide situations and materials and input, each child will
learn in her own way those things she's interested in. The more
opportunities, the better, but don't "have your feelings hanging out"
about whether the kids love what you bring (videos, books, web sites,
visits, people, games, objects). They might not be interested in what
you thought they would be interested in. Don't take it personally.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/museum
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-A kid whose parents don't own a sewing machine, may
never think to sew a mask, but they might make one out of paper. -=-
Marty made a cow mask with leather, paint and glue:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2009/11/off-to-ball.html
(And Holly bought that mask she's wearing, which was also made mostly
with glue, I think.)
Ah wait... Marty based that mask on a hood I had sewn years ago, and
it was sewn to the hood... So SOME sewing, though that could have
been avoided by fastening it to something else or adding a strap or
cords.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
never think to sew a mask, but they might make one out of paper. -=-
Marty made a cow mask with leather, paint and glue:
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2009/11/off-to-ball.html
(And Holly bought that mask she's wearing, which was also made mostly
with glue, I think.)
Ah wait... Marty based that mask on a hood I had sewn years ago, and
it was sewn to the hood... So SOME sewing, though that could have
been avoided by fastening it to something else or adding a strap or
cords.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Natalie Bullock
Thank you to those who answered in my absence yesterday; yes, the daughter
with dyslexia is my 9yo. To clarify, though: *I* am not putting pressure on
her. Molly is a perfectionist - she observes, she tries, and usually, she
does...and does well, because she usually compares herself to whatever she
was seeing. When my son learned to ride a bike at age 5.5y, Molly watched
him and within a month, she was riding her bike, too. She had just turned
3. That wasn't good enough - she then wanted a 16" bike, so I told her that
if and when she could ride her brother's 16" bike, I'd buy one for her,
too. Within a few weeks, she had a new 16" bike. It would never have
occurred to me that a 3yo would be doing any of that, but as with so many
things, she sees her big brother doing something, and she wants to do it,
too. That has been true for many things.
When she was 5, and started kindergarten at the local public school (we'll
call this my "blissfully unaware" stage), her ONLY goal was to learn to
read; she knew all the letters and most of their sounds before she started.
By that time, big brother, who is 2 years older, was reading Roald Dahl and
other meaty chapter books. She learned the requisite sight words pretty
easily. In March of her kindergarten year, we moved from Florida to
California. Her K here was more like a preschool, but with nearly twice as
many kids and a harried, sometimes grumpy teacher who told me that Molly was
so advanced, she should be promoted to 2nd grade, and to skip first
entirely. Instead, at the end of that school year, I had had enough of the
school here, primarily because of what I viewed as poor security and
unacceptable oversight of the too-large playground, where my son had been
knocked down and hit because he bothered to try to defend a classmate who
had a speech impediment. Although many kids witnessed it, there were no
supervisors nearby, so officially, the school would do nothing.
And that, sorry to say, is how I came to homeschooling - it wasn't something
I embraced enthusiastically, but rather something I felt was my only
option. A little over 3 years later, I'm at a different place entirely: I
don't want my children ever to go back to a school, but I still see that
it's not an optimal situation *as it is*, and that is why I am here - I
think it's because all along, I've read about and flirted with the idea of
unschooling, but it wasn't until this list and many of Sandra's pages that I
realized my idea of it was wholly inaccurate. I am drawn evermore to it,
even though with every response, I realize I still have a long way to go. :)
For Molly, I realized there may be a problem because when she was almost 7,
she was sounding out the word "press". You'll remember that she's wanted to
read all along, and here we were - she could sound out each letter
individually, but after doing that (puh-er-eh-ess-ess), she said, "pretty"!
If I had sounded out those sounds, she would have put them together without
a problem, but for her, there seemed to be a sort of disconnect between the
visual and the oral. She doesn't do that now so much, but at 9.5 years old,
she can read easily for about two minutes and then things get blurry. When
she writes, there are letter and number reversals, and even spelling
reversals. Sometimes the reversals are vertical flips, but not as much as
horizontal. So...earlier this year, I took her to a developmental
optomotrist, where we learned that her eyes don't converge on the same spot
(so an "a" would look like an a, and another, slightly offset, "a"; eg.,
it's blurry), and not only that, but one eye focuses slightly higher than
the other, so on both vertical and horizontal planes, her eyes are not
focusing on the same point. So...she may or may not have dyslexia, but this
physiological issue is interfering with her desire and ability to read. She
does not want to listen to the books; I've asked. We all enjoy a good book
on CD when we are driving a long distance, but it is not her preference to
listen otherwise. She really, really wants to read. And she can, but not
for any length of time - her eyes hurt after a couple of minutes, and if she
continue anyway, you can be sure she'll have a headache soon after. I have
never asked her to read a chapter book, and I haven't asked her to read much
of anything in a long, long time. She has begun to read picture books out
loud to her little sister, and no long seems to mind (very much) if she has
to ask what a word is. When I comment on her reading, it's to thank her for
being sweet and thoughtful for reading to her sister; I make every effort
not to focus on how she has read (though many times, it's just fine). It's
just that she wants to read the chapter books - the books other kids in our
group are reading. Maximum Ride, Guardians of Ga'hoole, etc.
I'm running out of time here - kids are awake, and I do not want to spend
today online, but quickly:
Robin, yeah, that was my fault. I think I'd mentioned that maybe we could
study the ocean, and a few weeks (or months) later, she asked about it. I
tried to make a simple interest (in starfish, if I recall correctly) into
something bigger and unit-like. Sadly, I don't remember what the original
request was, but (really not surprisingly, she has not really embraced a
unit study on the ocean). She did like visiting the tide pools. :)
As for the sewing machine...yep, I have one. A nice one, even, according to
my sister; I trust her, but I'm not especially adept at using it, so I
wouldn't really know. :) We always have fun when it 's out, but
previously, it felt like if I took it out, we were missing out on "more
important" things. I know, I know! I am sad thinking about all the REALLY
important things I missed by not savoring those times, but we still have the
sewing machine and they still would be interested, so I'm not a lost cause.
Sandra, I appreciate the additional links and your input, and although they
don't know it, my children do, too.
...but right now, I need to go read a book. Littlest has found one and has
brought it over once. I don't want to wait until she's brought it a second
time, so I'll try to answer any other things I missed later today.
I'm so grateful for each of you; thanks.
Natalie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with dyslexia is my 9yo. To clarify, though: *I* am not putting pressure on
her. Molly is a perfectionist - she observes, she tries, and usually, she
does...and does well, because she usually compares herself to whatever she
was seeing. When my son learned to ride a bike at age 5.5y, Molly watched
him and within a month, she was riding her bike, too. She had just turned
3. That wasn't good enough - she then wanted a 16" bike, so I told her that
if and when she could ride her brother's 16" bike, I'd buy one for her,
too. Within a few weeks, she had a new 16" bike. It would never have
occurred to me that a 3yo would be doing any of that, but as with so many
things, she sees her big brother doing something, and she wants to do it,
too. That has been true for many things.
When she was 5, and started kindergarten at the local public school (we'll
call this my "blissfully unaware" stage), her ONLY goal was to learn to
read; she knew all the letters and most of their sounds before she started.
By that time, big brother, who is 2 years older, was reading Roald Dahl and
other meaty chapter books. She learned the requisite sight words pretty
easily. In March of her kindergarten year, we moved from Florida to
California. Her K here was more like a preschool, but with nearly twice as
many kids and a harried, sometimes grumpy teacher who told me that Molly was
so advanced, she should be promoted to 2nd grade, and to skip first
entirely. Instead, at the end of that school year, I had had enough of the
school here, primarily because of what I viewed as poor security and
unacceptable oversight of the too-large playground, where my son had been
knocked down and hit because he bothered to try to defend a classmate who
had a speech impediment. Although many kids witnessed it, there were no
supervisors nearby, so officially, the school would do nothing.
And that, sorry to say, is how I came to homeschooling - it wasn't something
I embraced enthusiastically, but rather something I felt was my only
option. A little over 3 years later, I'm at a different place entirely: I
don't want my children ever to go back to a school, but I still see that
it's not an optimal situation *as it is*, and that is why I am here - I
think it's because all along, I've read about and flirted with the idea of
unschooling, but it wasn't until this list and many of Sandra's pages that I
realized my idea of it was wholly inaccurate. I am drawn evermore to it,
even though with every response, I realize I still have a long way to go. :)
For Molly, I realized there may be a problem because when she was almost 7,
she was sounding out the word "press". You'll remember that she's wanted to
read all along, and here we were - she could sound out each letter
individually, but after doing that (puh-er-eh-ess-ess), she said, "pretty"!
If I had sounded out those sounds, she would have put them together without
a problem, but for her, there seemed to be a sort of disconnect between the
visual and the oral. She doesn't do that now so much, but at 9.5 years old,
she can read easily for about two minutes and then things get blurry. When
she writes, there are letter and number reversals, and even spelling
reversals. Sometimes the reversals are vertical flips, but not as much as
horizontal. So...earlier this year, I took her to a developmental
optomotrist, where we learned that her eyes don't converge on the same spot
(so an "a" would look like an a, and another, slightly offset, "a"; eg.,
it's blurry), and not only that, but one eye focuses slightly higher than
the other, so on both vertical and horizontal planes, her eyes are not
focusing on the same point. So...she may or may not have dyslexia, but this
physiological issue is interfering with her desire and ability to read. She
does not want to listen to the books; I've asked. We all enjoy a good book
on CD when we are driving a long distance, but it is not her preference to
listen otherwise. She really, really wants to read. And she can, but not
for any length of time - her eyes hurt after a couple of minutes, and if she
continue anyway, you can be sure she'll have a headache soon after. I have
never asked her to read a chapter book, and I haven't asked her to read much
of anything in a long, long time. She has begun to read picture books out
loud to her little sister, and no long seems to mind (very much) if she has
to ask what a word is. When I comment on her reading, it's to thank her for
being sweet and thoughtful for reading to her sister; I make every effort
not to focus on how she has read (though many times, it's just fine). It's
just that she wants to read the chapter books - the books other kids in our
group are reading. Maximum Ride, Guardians of Ga'hoole, etc.
I'm running out of time here - kids are awake, and I do not want to spend
today online, but quickly:
Robin, yeah, that was my fault. I think I'd mentioned that maybe we could
study the ocean, and a few weeks (or months) later, she asked about it. I
tried to make a simple interest (in starfish, if I recall correctly) into
something bigger and unit-like. Sadly, I don't remember what the original
request was, but (really not surprisingly, she has not really embraced a
unit study on the ocean). She did like visiting the tide pools. :)
As for the sewing machine...yep, I have one. A nice one, even, according to
my sister; I trust her, but I'm not especially adept at using it, so I
wouldn't really know. :) We always have fun when it 's out, but
previously, it felt like if I took it out, we were missing out on "more
important" things. I know, I know! I am sad thinking about all the REALLY
important things I missed by not savoring those times, but we still have the
sewing machine and they still would be interested, so I'm not a lost cause.
Sandra, I appreciate the additional links and your input, and although they
don't know it, my children do, too.
...but right now, I need to go read a book. Littlest has found one and has
brought it over once. I don't want to wait until she's brought it a second
time, so I'll try to answer any other things I missed later today.
I'm so grateful for each of you; thanks.
Natalie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Natalie Bullock <nasb2pyrs@...> wrote:
Its a pretty common problem with phonics, actually - some people can't do the processing in between sounding out each letter and combining those sounds to make a word *while still learning* how to read. Once they can read, then they can learn specific decoding skills around phonetic clues, but not before.
That's why what a lot of teachers call "phonics" isn't "sounding out" but involves learning a select vocabulary lumping together words with similar pronounciations and/or learning about roots and affixes. It "looks like" phonics but "works like" memorizing words for people who can't "sound out".
Gosh that's such a good example of how a belief in phonics instruction can get in the way of learning! She was all "ready" to do a trick her brain wasn't capable of performing until after she learned to read. That must have been frustrating for her.
---Meredith
>she could sound out each letter*************
> individually, but after doing that (puh-er-eh-ess-ess), she said, "pretty"!
Its a pretty common problem with phonics, actually - some people can't do the processing in between sounding out each letter and combining those sounds to make a word *while still learning* how to read. Once they can read, then they can learn specific decoding skills around phonetic clues, but not before.
That's why what a lot of teachers call "phonics" isn't "sounding out" but involves learning a select vocabulary lumping together words with similar pronounciations and/or learning about roots and affixes. It "looks like" phonics but "works like" memorizing words for people who can't "sound out".
>her ONLY goal was to learn to***********
> read; she knew all the letters and most of their sounds before she started.
Gosh that's such a good example of how a belief in phonics instruction can get in the way of learning! She was all "ready" to do a trick her brain wasn't capable of performing until after she learned to read. That must have been frustrating for her.
>>So...earlier this year, I took her to a developmentalWere you told there were exercises to correct that? If your dd is interested, its something to look into, but its also not something to "push" if she isn't interested right now. There's No "critical period" for learning how to focus the eyes - even older adults can learn.
> optomotrist, where we learned that her eyes don't converge on the same spot
> (so an "a" would look like an a, and another, slightly offset, "a"; eg.,
> it's blurry), and not only that, but one eye focuses slightly higher than
> the other
>>> As for the sewing machine...yep, I have one. A nice one, even, according toSome kids can learn to use a sewing machine on their own, especially kids who tend to learn by doing anyway. If you have space, it may be worth it just to have the thing out and set up so that if someone gets an idea its all ready to go. There are a whole lot of things that can be done with just a straight stitch and a basic zig-zag - virtually all plain sewing can be done with those, in fact, so its just a matter of confidence in using the machine. If you aren't feeling confident and one of your kids wants to learn, ask around friends with machines, or small fabric shops to see if someone would be willing to give one of your kids a walk-through. There are plenty of things both my kids do well that I'm not very good at, and I help them find other, better resources than me if they want them. It can help to think of yourself as a kind of librarian - you don't Need all the answers, just have an idea of where to start looking.
> my sister; I trust her, but I'm not especially adept at using it
---Meredith
Robin Bentley
> It'sWill she allow you to read to her? The shared experience of
> just that she wants to read the chapter books - the books other kids
> in our
> group are reading. Maximum Ride, Guardians of Ga'hoole, etc.
storytelling and watching the words as you read them might be better
than books on CD for her.
Sometimes, a kid's brain (in its own individual way) just isn't ready
to read, regardless of desire. It's capable of doing lots of other
things, though. If you haven't already explained this to your
daughter, you could let her know that *that* part of her brain isn't
quite ready. And that it's fine. Help her focus on what she *can* do.
I've always thought that once print begins to "make sense", there's a
part of the brain that goes to just deciphering that input. New neural
pathways are being formed and others atrophy. When we start reading,
we can't *not* read. I think that's why observation (and imagination)
is the "reading" before the reading. It's an important part of brain
development.
> I think I'd mentioned that maybe we couldTry to eliminate the "study" from your vocabulary. Just do, see, feel,
> study the ocean, and a few weeks (or months) later, she asked about
> it.
experience.
> I am sad thinking about all the REALLYWhat you have is the "now" so focus on that, instead of regret. Regret
> important things I missed by not savoring those times, but we still
> have the
> sewing machine and they still would be interested, so I'm not a lost
> cause.
*can* inform how you proceed, but dwelling on it won't help.
>You don't have to respond to everything! It's okay to just let it sink
> ...but right now, I need to go read a book. Littlest has found one
> and has
> brought it over once. I don't want to wait until she's brought it a
> second
> time, so I'll try to answer any other things I missed later today.
in for a while.
Robin B.