Mary Hickcox

Hi all,  I am having a hard time deciding what to do and thought others on this list may be able to offer some guidance.  My son who is 7 and has never been to school or any school type activity has decided that he really wants to go to school.  He has been playing recently with some children that do go to school, in fact that is all he plays with.  We live in Costa Rica where it is illegal to homeschool and so not many people do it.  I do not know of any others in our area.  Anyway, the only options are private schools here which will cost a bit of start up money.  That isn't even the issue I have really.  I am pretty sure, knowing my son, that he isn't going to like it at all.  He is used to very little control over his day and I do not think he will like it.  I also happen to feel that school is bad for children and has negative effects that I don't want him to experience.  On the other hand I want him to decide his path in life but he is 7
and doesn't know what school is like nor does he understand the underlying issues I have with school.
Anyone here been in this situation?  Any advice?  I am looking into talking to the school director to see if he can shadow for a couple of days or a week so he can see what it is like before deciding to actually enroll him.  Thanks in advance.  Off to track down the howler monkeys we are hearing:)

Mary mama to Dylan (11), Colin (7) and Theo Benjamin (2 1/2)
"Be who you want your children to be."    Unknown  






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- We live in Costa Rica where it is illegal to homeschool and so not
many people do it. -=-

Are you foreigners so that it's legal for you?
Or if he goes and then is registered, will it be a legal problem to
take him out?

If he can legally try it and come home, maybe let him. He honestly
might like it. He would meet other kids, and that could be good.

Maybe you could use school in such a way that it can't hurt him as
much, but if you go with that option, maybe discuss with him not
discouraging his friends from doing well. Maybe he could be a bad
student without being a bad influence, perhaps:
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I am surprised that homeschooling is illegal in Costa RIca. Wasn't there
an Unschooling

COnference there a couple years ago?

 
Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

I'm sure it's quite frowned on. Don't know if it's actually been outlawed or
not.

~Katherine



On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 4:51 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...
> wrote:

> I am surprised that homeschooling is illegal in Costa RIca. Wasn't there
> an Unschooling
>
> COnference there a couple years ago?
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

verde_mama

--- In [email protected], Mary Hickcox <disser420@...> wrote:
My son who is 7 and has never been to school or any school type activity has decided that he really wants to go to school.

When my daughter was 6 (last year) she wanted to go to school fairly desperately. Although, I didn't like the idea, I didn't feel right unschooling her "against her will" as it was. I felt fairly hypocritical saying she could learn in all these interesting and life-inspiring ways, except for that one in a box that she really wanted. So she attended 1st grade for 2 1/2 months. The first month she really enjoyed it, it was novel. After that it slid downhill in her opinion, but it took her awhile before she was ready to let it go.

She is now enthusiastic unschooler, full of ideas and opinions and fun, but there was a transition period even after such a short schooling journey, where she really doubted herself. I think her schooling experience made her self-conscious in a way she hadn't experienced yet, and very occasionally still she'll put herself down (mostly about her looks). She also got teased often for having dreadlocks and was told once that a girl "wouldn't be friends with her because she was white".

So, even though school brought up several issues we hadn't yet encountered and are still working through, I'm happy with my decision to let her try it for herself for the sheer reason that now she wants to be where she is, instead of imagining how wonderful it would be to learn inside the box. This was our experience with it, your son may have a totally different experience if he gives it a try. It seems that a child who goes to school with full parental support for whatever he/she may choose next is probably better off than a child who doesn't want to be where they are at.

Good luck with you decision,
Nikole (mama to 3 daughters (7 yrs, 3 yrs, and 3 mo))

Sandra Dodd

-=- It seems that a child who goes to school with full parental
support for whatever he/she may choose next is probably better off
than a child who doesn't want to be where they are at.=-

I agree.

One of the worst aspects of school is the lack of choice.
Unschoolers can recreate that aspect of school if their kids don't
have a choice about unschooling or homeschooling.

Not a good idea to say "you have no choice" about something that lasts
so long.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dola dasgupta-banerji

Yes, I agree too. Isn't unschooling about limitless choices and flexibility.
so if the child wants to go to school and one has the option, then it is a
better idea to let the child try out school. The support has to be within
and not with the intention "he will find out soon how bad it is and then I
told you so".

Simply because a child might like school then the parent is in a fix. and if
the child comes back then "i told you so". So keeping an open ended
situation from within is important here.

Good luck!
Dola

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
>
> -=- It seems that a child who goes to school with full parental
> support for whatever he/she may choose next is probably better off
> than a child who doesn't want to be where they are at.=-
>
> I agree.
>
> One of the worst aspects of school is the lack of choice.
> Unschoolers can recreate that aspect of school if their kids don't
> have a choice about unschooling or homeschooling.
>
> Not a good idea to say "you have no choice" about something that lasts
> so long.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Isn't unschooling about limitless choices and flexibility.-=-

No.

No one has limitless choices or limited flexibility.

Unschooling is about learning without school. It's about the parents
creating an environment where learning is inevitable and fun.

Sandra

dola dasgupta-banerji

So what does one do when the child asks for school as the parent in this
thread wanted to know? Is it always fair to say that the parents are not
doing the right things to make unschooling work. I always feel when a parent
asks this question there is a deep down fear and insecurity that the parent
himself or herself feels about his or her own capability to unschool.

This fear needs to be addressed. If as a support group we say hey if
your child wants to go to school then you are not unschooling properly, is
that not being unfair.

I am sure this parent has similar fears and that needs to be heard and
answered. That is all.

Dola

On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
>
> -=-Isn't unschooling about limitless choices and flexibility.-=-
>
> No.
>
> No one has limitless choices or limited flexibility.
>
> Unschooling is about learning without school. It's about the parents
> creating an environment where learning is inevitable and fun.
>
> Sandra
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jeff Sabo

Just like with any pronouncement - "I want to quit Karate", "I want to move to Egypt", "I hate you" - I think you work with your child to understand what is driving the need they expressed, help them understand a bit of the pros and cons through two-way discussions, help them search for alternative ways to fulfill their need if appropriate, and then get the hell out of the way and support the decision. Our children will make thousands of decisions in their lives that may be different from those we would make for them, or for ourselves. We can either help them pursue those decisions, or stand in their way. I like to think that as unschoolers committed to the ideals of freedom, choice, and learning from experience, we would support our kids if they elected to go to school. I know I would, and I know that most unschooling parents I know who were faced with the same circumstance also supported their kids. 

--- On Fri, 8/6/10, dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...> wrote:

From: dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Son asking to try school
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, August 6, 2010, 10:33 AM

So what does one do when the child asks for school as the parent in this
thread wanted to know? Is it always fair to say that the parents are not
doing the right things to make unschooling work. I always feel when a parent
asks this question there is a deep down fear and insecurity that the parent
himself or herself feels about his or her own capability to unschool.

This fear needs to be addressed. If as a support group we say hey if
your child wants to go to school then you are not unschooling properly, is
that not being unfair.

I am sure this parent has similar fears and that needs to be heard and
answered. That is all.

Dola

On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
>
> -=-Isn't unschooling about limitless choices and flexibility.-=-
>
> No.
>
> No one has limitless choices or limited flexibility.
>
> Unschooling is about learning without school. It's about the parents
> creating an environment where learning is inevitable and fun.
>
> Sandra
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I am sure this parent has similar fears and that needs to be heard
and
answered. That is all.-=-

That might be all if there weren't way over 2,000 people on the list.
If we say "whatever" or "school is as good as unschooling," I might as
well shut the list down today.

-=-So what does one do when the child asks for school as the parent in
this
thread wanted to know? Is it always fair to say that the parents are not
doing the right things to make unschooling work-=-

If the child wants to go to school because he's bored or doesn't think
he's learning, then the parent is not doing the right things to make
unschooling work.

If the child wants to go to school because he wants to see what school
is like, or to be around other kids, or to be in orchestra or
football, that's a whole different deal.

-=-Is it always fair to say ...-=-

Nothing's "always fair."

The question for this list shouldn't be what's fair, but what helps
people move toward unschooling IF that's where they want to go. If
they don't want to go toward unschooling, this won't be a very useful
list for them, but the answers to their questions might help many
others who are reading.

-=- I always feel when a parent asks this question there is a deep
down fear and insecurity that the parent
himself or herself feels about his or her own capability to unschool.-=-

If a child wants to go to school, that parent should talk to that
child. The parents feelings should be secondary.

Not all people have an equal capacity to unschool. Some are GREAT at
it, because they're patient and imaginative and willing to do things
on short notice. Some have to work hard to be that way. Some can't
do it, and don't want to do it, so if they have any fear or
insecurity, that's healthy. We can't give anyone the capability to
unschool. We can help them discover whether they have any, and
encourage them, and that happens every day here, and the archives are
still here, and some of the best parts are here:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

-=-This fear needs to be addressed. If as a support group we say hey if
your child wants to go to school then you are not unschooling
properly, is
that not being unfair.-=-

AH! This fear does not need to be addressed, because this is not a
support group.
This is a discussion list.
Support is like this: http://sandradodd.com/support

http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning
If you don't have time to read the whole thing, read the top part and
what's in the yellow box.

Sandra

Jennifer Schuelein

My son has been unschooled from the start. He did, however, have a period of time where he was curious about attending formal school (his best friend attends public school). So, we talked about it and explained all of the various aspects. We also told him to think about his choice for a week. Having been a substitute teacher and also being the child of a teacher, I knew all of the aspects of formal schooling all too well. In the end my son was just lonely and wanted more friends and didn't really want to attend school. There might be an underlying issue like that.

--- In [email protected], Jeff Sabo <freeboysdad@...> wrote:
>
> Just like with any pronouncement - "I want to quit Karate", "I want to move to Egypt", "I hate you" - I think you work with your child to understand what is driving the need they expressed, help them understand a bit of the pros and cons through two-way discussions, help them search for alternative ways to fulfill their need if appropriate, and then get the hell out of the way and support the decision. Our children will make thousands of decisions in their lives that may be different from those we would make for them, or for ourselves. We can either help them pursue those decisions, or stand in their way. I like to think that as unschoolers committed to the ideals of freedom, choice, and learning from experience, we would support our kids if they elected to go to school. I know I would, and I know that most unschooling parents I know who were faced with the same circumstance also supported their kids. 
>
> --- On Fri, 8/6/10, dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...> wrote:
>
> From: dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...>
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Son asking to try school
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Friday, August 6, 2010, 10:33 AM
>
> So what does one do when the child asks for school as the parent in this
> thread wanted to know? Is it always fair to say that the parents are not
> doing the right things to make unschooling work. I always feel when a parent
> asks this question there is a deep down fear and insecurity that the parent
> himself or herself feels about his or her own capability to unschool.
>
> This fear needs to be addressed. If as a support group we say hey if
> your child wants to go to school then you are not unschooling properly, is
> that not being unfair.
>
> I am sure this parent has similar fears and that needs to be heard and
> answered. That is all.
>
> Dola
>
> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > -=-Isn't unschooling about limitless choices and flexibility.-=-
> >
> > No.
> >
> > No one has limitless choices or limited flexibility.
> >
> > Unschooling is about learning without school. It's about the parents
> > creating an environment where learning is inevitable and fun.
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Aug 6, 2010, at 1:33 PM, dola dasgupta-banerji wrote:

> Is it always fair to say that the parents are not
> doing the right things to make unschooling work.

It's not always the case so it wouldn't be helpful to always say so.
If a parent tells us a child is bored or has wanted friends and has
chosen school because the mom hasn't solved that problem, then the mom
isn't doing what's necessary to help her child.

> I always feel when a parent
> asks this question there is a deep down fear and insecurity that the
> parent
> himself or herself feels about his or her own capability to unschool.


I think that's natural. I felt it when Kat tried school (that lasted
for 2 months.)

> This fear needs to be addressed.


Fears that get in the way of what the mom and child want need
addressed to get those roadblocks out of the way.

But if a mom is fearing unschooling isn't going well, she certainly
should examine that.

> If as a support group


This isn't a support group. It's a discussion group to help people
grasp unschooling so they can figure out how make it work in their
families.

> we say hey if
> your child wants to go to school then you are not unschooling
> properly, is
> that not being unfair.

I'm not sure what you're meaning by unfair. Not supportive?

But if a child is curious about school -- which is natural since
nearly everyone around them goes, since school figures in most kids'
and family shows -- it's supportive of the child's interest to let
them try it. Unschooling against a child's will isn't much better than
school against a child's will. At least if a child must go to school,
they can escape home.

But if a desire to go to school is because a mom isn't meeting the
child's needs, then the mom needs to change if she wants to unschool
successfully.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=- In the end my son was just lonely and wanted more friends and
didn't really want to attend school. There might be an underlying
issue like that.-=-

Maybe another kind of school would do--karate, dance, art,
photography... some class he could go to regularly and have a teacher.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jennifer Schuelein

> Maybe another kind of school would do--karate, dance, art,
> photography... some class he could go to regularly and have a teacher.

Exactly! He craved social interaction and a bit of structure, but not with the intensity and length of formal schooling.

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- In the end my son was just lonely and wanted more friends and
> didn't really want to attend school. There might be an underlying
> issue like that.-=-
>
> Maybe another kind of school would do--karate, dance, art,
> photography... some class he could go to regularly and have a teacher.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

k

-=-This fear needs to be addressed. If as a support group we say hey if
your child wants to go to school then you are not unschooling
properly, is that not being unfair.-=-

My fear would be that if my child would be happy unschooling but my
efforts aren't what they could be due to my blindspots, I'd rather
know what my uphold up is than to feel that this list is being unfair
to my reason for posting that might seem to me not to have anything to
do with me. But what if it is something I could change?

I have sisters who aren't unschooling... they're doing school at home.
Most homeschoolers that I know in my area, well all of them that I
know, are doing the same. And they are constantly putting children in
and out of school. Sometimes I know why. Other times I don't. Of
course I'm the crazy unschooler so my input is sort of beside their
point which is to do school at home.

If someone is unschooling and need to step up a bit in strewing, going
out for playmates/dates, or in their own or their children's
deschooling needs a bit more attention.... that would be better to
know than if something is fair on the list.

~Katherine

dola dasgupta-banerji

Thank you for such a wonderful and honest reply. I am sorry to have
misunderstood the objectives of this list. Your replies as always will help
me in my own unschooling journey and also help me to answer those here in
India who have similar fears and insecurites, as discussed in this list.

And ofcourse it is not "thats all". I have only begun on this path.

Dola

On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 12:33 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
>
> -=-I am sure this parent has similar fears and that needs to be heard
> and
> answered. That is all.-=-
>
> That might be all if there weren't way over 2,000 people on the list.
> If we say "whatever" or "school is as good as unschooling," I might as
> well shut the list down today.
>
> -=-So what does one do when the child asks for school as the parent in
> this
> thread wanted to know? Is it always fair to say that the parents are not
> doing the right things to make unschooling work-=-
>
> If the child wants to go to school because he's bored or doesn't think
> he's learning, then the parent is not doing the right things to make
> unschooling work.
>
> If the child wants to go to school because he wants to see what school
> is like, or to be around other kids, or to be in orchestra or
> football, that's a whole different deal.
>
> -=-Is it always fair to say ...-=-
>
> Nothing's "always fair."
>
> The question for this list shouldn't be what's fair, but what helps
> people move toward unschooling IF that's where they want to go. If
> they don't want to go toward unschooling, this won't be a very useful
> list for them, but the answers to their questions might help many
> others who are reading.
>
> -=- I always feel when a parent asks this question there is a deep
> down fear and insecurity that the parent
> himself or herself feels about his or her own capability to unschool.-=-
>
> If a child wants to go to school, that parent should talk to that
> child. The parents feelings should be secondary.
>
> Not all people have an equal capacity to unschool. Some are GREAT at
> it, because they're patient and imaginative and willing to do things
> on short notice. Some have to work hard to be that way. Some can't
> do it, and don't want to do it, so if they have any fear or
> insecurity, that's healthy. We can't give anyone the capability to
> unschool. We can help them discover whether they have any, and
> encourage them, and that happens every day here, and the archives are
> still here, and some of the best parts are here:
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
> http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
>
> -=-This fear needs to be addressed. If as a support group we say hey if
>
> your child wants to go to school then you are not unschooling
> properly, is
> that not being unfair.-=-
>
> AH! This fear does not need to be addressed, because this is not a
> support group.
> This is a discussion list.
> Support is like this: http://sandradodd.com/support
>
> http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning
> If you don't have time to read the whole thing, read the top part and
> what's in the yellow box.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marcia Simonds

>>>If the child wants to go to school because he wants to see what school is like, or to be around other kids, or to be in orchestra or football, that's a whole different deal.<<<


This is our situation.
The question was asked by my son last year. "How do I know I don't like school if I have never been?" and he said he wanted to go last year, but after the NorthEast Unschooling Conference he changed his mind.

This year he is adament about trying high school (and he IS going to NEUC again this year!) and I have to honor his choice. All his close friends go to school and he wants to be *in the mix* of kids, day in and day out, and join clubs, especially drama. He knows he can take any class at the high school and even join any after school activities, but he says he wants *to be there and experience it all*.

He also knows he can learn anything faster and delve deeper on his own, as he has done all these years, but that is not the reason for him trying school, to increase his knowledge of a subject. He realizes he *will* learn something just as we learn every day in all that we do, but it is the daily camaraderie that he wants to experience.

I find it hard to believe that he can put up with the rules, etc that school brings since he has had choice and has been a freethinker all these years, but sometimes people are willing to put up with the *stuff* to be where they want to be. And you can't always tell someone what it is like or how bad it will be because we are all unique and one person can be happy when another person is not. They need to find it out on their own.

Last year I was very sad about him wanting to go to school. This year I trust that he knows what he is doing and I actually feel the school would be very lucky to have such a child in their presence. He is a confident, intelligent young man with a good head on his shoulders.

I am looking forward to see how it goes for him . He knows he is able to come home at any time and the school is well aware of that as well. If he does come home, he will re-join a weekly teen group and also wants to pursue internships in the music industry. And perhaps he will continue with any school clubs he has joined.

Do I wish he didn't want to go school and would be happy with his life as it is? Of course I do, but he is not and we have exhausted all possibilities ( that are financially feasible, that is ) and I am here to support him in his new venture.

My daughter,12 , says she will always unschool :)

~marcia simonds
www.childinharmony.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-This year he is adament about trying high school (and he IS going
to NEUC again this year!) and I have to honor his choice.-=-

You don't have to honor his choice.
You're choosing to!

To say "have to" is a problem for discussing unschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto

His choices shouldn't be making you helpless or trapped.

That was a good description of the difference between the way a
confident unschooler will go to school (and see it, and act within it)
and a child who never quite understood that he could learn things on
his own.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Aug 7, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Marcia Simonds wrote:

> I find it hard to believe that he can put up with the rules, etc
> that school brings since he has had choice and has been a
> freethinker all these years, but sometimes people are willing to put
> up with the *stuff* to be where they want to be.

Someone who is choosing gets to choose how much it's worth to them.
Someone who's made to has no choice so even an irritating grain of
stand feels like glass shards.

Why would someone give up central heating to put up with cold so
severe they might loose toes to climb Mt. Everest?

> They need to find it out on their own.


Kids can't understand the world by being told about it in school. And
they can't understand school by being told about it in the world.
Though for some kids what they hear isn't enough to draw them so not
everyone feels the desire to experience it first hand.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marcia Simonds

Re: Son asking to try school


marcia said:
-=-This year he is adament about trying high school (and he IS going
to NEUC again this year!) and I have to honor his choice.-=-

sandra said:
You don't have to honor his choice.
You're choosing to!

To say "have to" is a problem for discussing unschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto

His choices shouldn't be making you helpless or trapped.

*****
Hi Sandra,
Just to be clear, his choices do NOT make ME feel helpless or trapped.

Perhaps I should have said I *choose* to honor his choice, instead of I have to, especially for new unschoolers.to understand.

But within myself, it IS a *have to* cuz that's how we live...I value choice and freedom and trust my child to know what he wants and needs. So in order for me to be the best parent for him, I do *have to* honor his choice and I am happy to do so. It IS genuine not fake and I do not feel helpless or trapped.

~marcia simonds
www.chiildinharmony.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Aug 7, 2010, at 4:13 PM, Marcia Simonds wrote:

> So in order for me to be the best parent for him, I do *have to*
> honor his choice and I am happy to do so. It IS genuine not fake and
> I do not feel helpless or trapped.

But in terms of helping people unschool, letting go of the idea of
"have to" is a huge mental shift in the right direction.

People don't always feel trapped by the "have tos" they want to do,
but stating some action as a "have to" puts it in the same box as
other not so welcome "have tos" they may have in their lives. Putting
something in a box with something stinky is bound to make the not
stinky thing smell a bit ;-)

Did you read the page Sandra linked?

http://sandradodd.com/haveto

Even if it's not an idea that's useful to you, it needs kept out on
the list when the issue comes up so others can use it.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

m6hschch

I always read Sandra's links :)

And I totally get what you are saying about *have to* and this list and getting unschooling. I agree. We do have to let go of the have to's.

I will rephrase... I don't *have to* honor his choice of going to school..but I wish to, I choose to, I want to.. and am happy to do so :)

marcia simonds
www.childinharmony.com

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Aug 7, 2010, at 4:13 PM, Marcia Simonds wrote:
>
> > So in order for me to be the best parent for him, I do *have to*
> > honor his choice and I am happy to do so. It IS genuine not fake and
> > I do not feel helpless or trapped.
>
> But in terms of helping people unschool, letting go of the idea of
> "have to" is a huge mental shift in the right direction.
>
> People don't always feel trapped by the "have tos" they want to do,
> but stating some action as a "have to" puts it in the same box as
> other not so welcome "have tos" they may have in their lives. Putting
> something in a box with something stinky is bound to make the not
> stinky thing smell a bit ;-)
>
> Did you read the page Sandra linked?
>
> http://sandradodd.com/haveto
>
> Even if it's not an idea that's useful to you, it needs kept out on
> the list when the issue comes up so others can use it.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>