Mentoring?
Vidyut Kale
I was contemplating the new 'hand-holding" list that has come up. I read
the various threads, opinions of different people. I found two aspects
intriguing - the need and the risks, which seem to be exclusive stances
taken by members.
There seems to be a need among some members to find "softer guidance", which
is *not* the same as not working on themselves. I understand this to mean
that they would like acknowledgment of what is and where they need to go
more than 'troubleshooting'. It is obviously not impossible, if we look at
many transformative methodologies. It is possible to focus on desired change
to create it. We find what we seek, and seeking problems with what is
happening quickly leads newcomers into insecure terrain, while experienced
members cope fluidly based on their understanding of the method. Some
withdraw, others challenge, still others form breakaway groups, but the need
underlying them is the same - finding understanding (as distinct from hand
holding and mollycoddling) in a way that they feel understood. Experienced
members often understand. Sometimes better than the person with the issue,
but it feels judgmental, since we are not at an experience level to 'get
it'. I had a great deal of trouble with this initially (not that I promise
its over, but...).
On the other hand, a separate list seems risky terrain too. It would be too
easy for a bunch of new comers (including me) to pat each other on the back
and go "there, there, its all right...". It is easy to blur the lines
between acceptance of a person and compromising goals. Even this quote of
mine could be either, depending on context.
I was wondering if mentoring could fill the need and reduce risks of
"slipping into complacency". If newbies finding it difficult to cope could
find experienced mentors of "their favorite input flavor", they would slowly
learn to find that "gentleness" in the list itself in the caring; without
needing to withdraw or find alternate resources of dubious value.
Versatility is a strength in a guide. A list like this is a tremendous
source for finding it, which a new list could not be. Could we leverage it
to everyone's happiness?
Has something like this been tried by unschoolers rather than the risk of
breakaway kindergarten lists people never graduate from? <-- I got this
concern from something Sandra wrote
"...people stay on bad trails instead of getting onto good ones. And the
that is not helping you because it is on another level, or withdraw and go
elsewhere and risk derailing your entire purpose for getting into all this.
A mentor could help get over "stucks" and defensive anger and misunderstood
intentions and understand the underlying processes helping people cope
better and quicker and learn all through rather than be silenced to some
back shelf and looked at later if they survive.
I am not questioning how things are done, just looking at possibilities that
may exist for damage control of newbie acclimatization for the hundreds in
here that keep going through it all the time new people join and also the
newbies themselves who find it difficult to find value when they are so busy
defending themselves difficult to take expressions. It may also help us cope
with things we find extreme and want to reject and look underneath our
reactions to the message and its meaning for us.
Vidyut
PS: Now, I'm cringing at how Sandra will rip this post apart. Then I look at
myself and ask for that trust and acceptance that she does it not because
she hates me, but because she sees areas for alarm. If I'd like trust and
acceptance of my intentions, I 'should' find the courage to live it too, no?
Then I look at this whole process and see how it could be much more
supportive, if I could sound the idea off an experienced mentor rather than
litter every inbox on the list if it is not really useful and I take a deep
breath and hit 'send'.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the various threads, opinions of different people. I found two aspects
intriguing - the need and the risks, which seem to be exclusive stances
taken by members.
There seems to be a need among some members to find "softer guidance", which
is *not* the same as not working on themselves. I understand this to mean
that they would like acknowledgment of what is and where they need to go
more than 'troubleshooting'. It is obviously not impossible, if we look at
many transformative methodologies. It is possible to focus on desired change
to create it. We find what we seek, and seeking problems with what is
happening quickly leads newcomers into insecure terrain, while experienced
members cope fluidly based on their understanding of the method. Some
withdraw, others challenge, still others form breakaway groups, but the need
underlying them is the same - finding understanding (as distinct from hand
holding and mollycoddling) in a way that they feel understood. Experienced
members often understand. Sometimes better than the person with the issue,
but it feels judgmental, since we are not at an experience level to 'get
it'. I had a great deal of trouble with this initially (not that I promise
its over, but...).
On the other hand, a separate list seems risky terrain too. It would be too
easy for a bunch of new comers (including me) to pat each other on the back
and go "there, there, its all right...". It is easy to blur the lines
between acceptance of a person and compromising goals. Even this quote of
mine could be either, depending on context.
I was wondering if mentoring could fill the need and reduce risks of
"slipping into complacency". If newbies finding it difficult to cope could
find experienced mentors of "their favorite input flavor", they would slowly
learn to find that "gentleness" in the list itself in the caring; without
needing to withdraw or find alternate resources of dubious value.
Versatility is a strength in a guide. A list like this is a tremendous
source for finding it, which a new list could not be. Could we leverage it
to everyone's happiness?
Has something like this been tried by unschoolers rather than the risk of
breakaway kindergarten lists people never graduate from? <-- I got this
concern from something Sandra wrote
"...people stay on bad trails instead of getting onto good ones. And the
> stronger responses were coming from mothers with less experience. SameIt is a difficult place for a newbie. Either shut up and cope with something
> emotional experience, less practical benefit...."
that is not helping you because it is on another level, or withdraw and go
elsewhere and risk derailing your entire purpose for getting into all this.
A mentor could help get over "stucks" and defensive anger and misunderstood
intentions and understand the underlying processes helping people cope
better and quicker and learn all through rather than be silenced to some
back shelf and looked at later if they survive.
I am not questioning how things are done, just looking at possibilities that
may exist for damage control of newbie acclimatization for the hundreds in
here that keep going through it all the time new people join and also the
newbies themselves who find it difficult to find value when they are so busy
defending themselves difficult to take expressions. It may also help us cope
with things we find extreme and want to reject and look underneath our
reactions to the message and its meaning for us.
Vidyut
PS: Now, I'm cringing at how Sandra will rip this post apart. Then I look at
myself and ask for that trust and acceptance that she does it not because
she hates me, but because she sees areas for alarm. If I'd like trust and
acceptance of my intentions, I 'should' find the courage to live it too, no?
Then I look at this whole process and see how it could be much more
supportive, if I could sound the idea off an experienced mentor rather than
litter every inbox on the list if it is not really useful and I take a deep
breath and hit 'send'.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
A couple of recommendations for the folks looking for softer *voice* for
unschooling:
First, get to a conference! Meet unschoolers of every variety, hear
speakers, engage your kids -- SEE IT!
There are (now) a variety of conferences to fit most every family's style,
from a very fun waterpark weekend happening right now (no speakers, pure
gathering joy), to Cameron's Autodidact Symposium in March (directed more
towards the young adult unschuestions), to the Life is Good in May & the
Northeaster Unschooling Conference in August (more traditional unschooling
conferences -- not to be confused with traditional conferences ::bg::
And lots more I'm not remembering at 5:30 am
Meanwhile, here's a link to my favorite Conference Movie, by Craig Meyer -- ABQ
2006 <http://vilter.us/liveandlearn2006/mayermovie.html>
Second, there are audio recordings available
Parenting Peacefully <http://www.sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully> is
available for FREE!!! FREE!! at the bottom of the page. Sandra's voice is a
wonderful one to invite into your head, then you know how her posts "sound"
with her real voice.
Conference websites/stores also offer recordings of speakers past, at
least Life
is Good<http://lifeisgoodconference.com/registration/products-page/presentation-recordings/>
does!
And cheap :)
I couldn't find the Live and Learn ones, anyone know their status? They'd
too be a worthwhile investment.
The mentor idea, while wonderful in theory would be one more time draw for
an unschooling mama, from her family. These lists are ideal, for moments
like these, when the most of you are sleeping and so is my son -- I may be
robbed of a little sleep today, though no one's being robbed of my attention
:)
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.wordpress.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
unschooling:
First, get to a conference! Meet unschoolers of every variety, hear
speakers, engage your kids -- SEE IT!
There are (now) a variety of conferences to fit most every family's style,
from a very fun waterpark weekend happening right now (no speakers, pure
gathering joy), to Cameron's Autodidact Symposium in March (directed more
towards the young adult unschuestions), to the Life is Good in May & the
Northeaster Unschooling Conference in August (more traditional unschooling
conferences -- not to be confused with traditional conferences ::bg::
And lots more I'm not remembering at 5:30 am
Meanwhile, here's a link to my favorite Conference Movie, by Craig Meyer -- ABQ
2006 <http://vilter.us/liveandlearn2006/mayermovie.html>
Second, there are audio recordings available
Parenting Peacefully <http://www.sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully> is
available for FREE!!! FREE!! at the bottom of the page. Sandra's voice is a
wonderful one to invite into your head, then you know how her posts "sound"
with her real voice.
Conference websites/stores also offer recordings of speakers past, at
least Life
is Good<http://lifeisgoodconference.com/registration/products-page/presentation-recordings/>
does!
And cheap :)
I couldn't find the Live and Learn ones, anyone know their status? They'd
too be a worthwhile investment.
The mentor idea, while wonderful in theory would be one more time draw for
an unschooling mama, from her family. These lists are ideal, for moments
like these, when the most of you are sleeping and so is my son -- I may be
robbed of a little sleep today, though no one's being robbed of my attention
:)
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.wordpress.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
**directed more towards the young adult ^unschuestions**
I lost the middle! ...directed more towards the young adult unschoolers and
their questions
(twitter speak?)
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.wordpress.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I lost the middle! ...directed more towards the young adult unschoolers and
their questions
(twitter speak?)
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.wordpress.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
I was a newbie on this list and I read and read and read and rarely posted. I didn't need my voice to be heard to garner information and ideas from here. I didn't need patience and hand holding to move forward on this bold new path. I needed others posting strong statements of what worked of how to make better choices. If I had waited for someone to speak to me, this non-posting newbie, to change in small incremental ways, well I'd still be waiting and my kids and I would probably not have the relationship we have, the trust we share.
I wax and wane in my ability to post to the list. I don't have the commitments that have kept Deb, and others, from posting, but I have winter blues that lower my energy, I have two children who I want to be with, I have a husband whose company I revel in. My life is bigger than these lists are to me, sometimes, and at other times I enjoy writing and reading immensely. I do not expect more from the people who post than what they freely give. This is such a gift and such a perspective changing thing for me, the idea of telling the people who make this possible how to best accomodate me, well it seems the epitome of ungrateful.
Schuyler
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wax and wane in my ability to post to the list. I don't have the commitments that have kept Deb, and others, from posting, but I have winter blues that lower my energy, I have two children who I want to be with, I have a husband whose company I revel in. My life is bigger than these lists are to me, sometimes, and at other times I enjoy writing and reading immensely. I do not expect more from the people who post than what they freely give. This is such a gift and such a perspective changing thing for me, the idea of telling the people who make this possible how to best accomodate me, well it seems the epitome of ungrateful.
Schuyler
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:39 AM, Vidyut Kale wrote:
Maybe you're imagining that the regular posters have adapted their
style of help to fit Sandra's parameters for the list.
I can't speak for others but I'm comfortable posting here because my
style already fit Sandra's parameters. I don't choose how to help
based on what people need. I just do what comes naturally and whoever
finds it useful is welcome to read.
I know Ren Allen did or maybe still does offer phone counseling for a
fee. Anyone with a phone is free to offer that.
After all these years it's pretty obvious from the blowups and hurt
feelings that a list like this doesn't suit everyone's needs. But
what the list offers, beyond what Sandra writes, is completely
dependent on whatever someone voluntarily sends to the list.
The flavor of a place becomes more concentrated as time passes. The
flavor starts off fairly broad but the people who merely sort of like
the flavor tend to drift away taking their other flavors with them
and those who really like the flavor stay, intensifying that flavor.
So this list tends toward analysis flavor because people who like
that stay and some contribute.
That's not a bad thing. It's just how gatherings of people work.
Another factor is that not everyone who can unschool well can or
wants to explain it. Since unschooling is already small to begin
with, that's an even smaller number.
People who enjoy more hand holding style of help are less likely to
enjoy this list's style so the number who do who are on this list is
small. And of that small number how many have the skills necessary to
mentor someone?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I understand this to meanAnyone's free to see a need and step in to fill it.
> that they would like acknowledgment of what is and where they need
> to go
> more than 'troubleshooting'.
Maybe you're imagining that the regular posters have adapted their
style of help to fit Sandra's parameters for the list.
I can't speak for others but I'm comfortable posting here because my
style already fit Sandra's parameters. I don't choose how to help
based on what people need. I just do what comes naturally and whoever
finds it useful is welcome to read.
I know Ren Allen did or maybe still does offer phone counseling for a
fee. Anyone with a phone is free to offer that.
After all these years it's pretty obvious from the blowups and hurt
feelings that a list like this doesn't suit everyone's needs. But
what the list offers, beyond what Sandra writes, is completely
dependent on whatever someone voluntarily sends to the list.
The flavor of a place becomes more concentrated as time passes. The
flavor starts off fairly broad but the people who merely sort of like
the flavor tend to drift away taking their other flavors with them
and those who really like the flavor stay, intensifying that flavor.
So this list tends toward analysis flavor because people who like
that stay and some contribute.
That's not a bad thing. It's just how gatherings of people work.
Another factor is that not everyone who can unschool well can or
wants to explain it. Since unschooling is already small to begin
with, that's an even smaller number.
People who enjoy more hand holding style of help are less likely to
enjoy this list's style so the number who do who are on this list is
small. And of that small number how many have the skills necessary to
mentor someone?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John and Amanda Slater
It is possible to edit the list to your own liking. When I started reading about 4 or 5 years ago I agreed with maybe 80% of the posts I read. The rest of them seemed crazy and I read them aloud to my husband and we laughed at the insanity. Or I just deleted them. After a couple of months I decided that if that 80% were right, maybe the rest of it was worth considering. My thinking changed gradually over a few months.
One of the great things about all the lists is that the same issues/questions come up again and again. The ideas that seemed crazy the first time they came up made more sense the second time. If I wanted more answers in the meantime, I checked the archives and if that did not work, I asked. New people join the list every day and your questions will help them as well as yourself.
There are also other unschooling lists out there. There used to be a list of them all, but I'm not sure anymore. I belong to several, but only have web access to most of them. I tend to move around depending I what I need and how much time I have to read. Belonging to several lists gives me access to lots of archives and lets me pick which one(s) I like best. Staying on topic and not seconding posts is important to me. When I have little time to read, I might delete most of the posts in my inbox without reading. I may only follow one thread and delete the rest.
These lists exist for the benefit of a large number of people. Not every post is useful to every person.
Amanda
Eli 8, Samuel 7
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One of the great things about all the lists is that the same issues/questions come up again and again. The ideas that seemed crazy the first time they came up made more sense the second time. If I wanted more answers in the meantime, I checked the archives and if that did not work, I asked. New people join the list every day and your questions will help them as well as yourself.
There are also other unschooling lists out there. There used to be a list of them all, but I'm not sure anymore. I belong to several, but only have web access to most of them. I tend to move around depending I what I need and how much time I have to read. Belonging to several lists gives me access to lots of archives and lets me pick which one(s) I like best. Staying on topic and not seconding posts is important to me. When I have little time to read, I might delete most of the posts in my inbox without reading. I may only follow one thread and delete the rest.
These lists exist for the benefit of a large number of people. Not every post is useful to every person.
Amanda
Eli 8, Samuel 7
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
caseyerinwood
I'm a newbie, have been absorbing since October. My daughter will be 4 years old next month and would have been slated to start kindergarden in the fall. I have read every post since I joined the list and this is what I have "gotten"...
- read more, post less, then go spend time with your children
- there is immense value in reading the responses to "other" people's issues
- this list is about the ideas, not the individuals who post those ideas, so there is no need to take anything personally
- keep your heart and mind open, both to the list, but mostly to your own children
- it's gradual, so be gentle, with yourself and your children
So I just wanted to say a huge thank you, I like this list just the way it is.
Just my two-cents,
Casey
Always Learning Mama in Ontario, Canada
- read more, post less, then go spend time with your children
- there is immense value in reading the responses to "other" people's issues
- this list is about the ideas, not the individuals who post those ideas, so there is no need to take anything personally
- keep your heart and mind open, both to the list, but mostly to your own children
- it's gradual, so be gentle, with yourself and your children
So I just wanted to say a huge thank you, I like this list just the way it is.
Just my two-cents,
Casey
Always Learning Mama in Ontario, Canada
--- In [email protected], Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:
>
> I was contemplating the new 'hand-holding" list that has come up. I read
> the various threads, opinions of different people. I found two aspects
> intriguing - the need and the risks, which seem to be exclusive stances
> taken by members.
>
> There seems to be a need among some members to find "softer guidance", which
> is *not* the same as not working on themselves. I understand this to mean
> that they would like acknowledgment of what is and where they need to go
> more than 'troubleshooting'. It is obviously not impossible, if we look at
> many transformative methodologies. It is possible to focus on desired change
> to create it. We find what we seek, and seeking problems with what is
> happening quickly leads newcomers into insecure terrain, while experienced
> members cope fluidly based on their understanding of the method. Some
> withdraw, others challenge, still others form breakaway groups, but the need
> underlying them is the same - finding understanding (as distinct from hand
> holding and mollycoddling) in a way that they feel understood. Experienced
> members often understand. Sometimes better than the person with the issue,
> but it feels judgmental, since we are not at an experience level to 'get
> it'. I had a great deal of trouble with this initially (not that I promise
> its over, but...).
>
> On the other hand, a separate list seems risky terrain too. It would be too
> easy for a bunch of new comers (including me) to pat each other on the back
> and go "there, there, its all right...". It is easy to blur the lines
> between acceptance of a person and compromising goals. Even this quote of
> mine could be either, depending on context.
>
> I was wondering if mentoring could fill the need and reduce risks of
> "slipping into complacency". If newbies finding it difficult to cope could
> find experienced mentors of "their favorite input flavor", they would slowly
> learn to find that "gentleness" in the list itself in the caring; without
> needing to withdraw or find alternate resources of dubious value.
> Versatility is a strength in a guide. A list like this is a tremendous
> source for finding it, which a new list could not be. Could we leverage it
> to everyone's happiness?
>
> Has something like this been tried by unschoolers rather than the risk of
> breakaway kindergarten lists people never graduate from? <-- I got this
> concern from something Sandra wrote
>
> "...people stay on bad trails instead of getting onto good ones. And the
> > stronger responses were coming from mothers with less experience. Same
> > emotional experience, less practical benefit...."
>
>
> It is a difficult place for a newbie. Either shut up and cope with something
> that is not helping you because it is on another level, or withdraw and go
> elsewhere and risk derailing your entire purpose for getting into all this.
> A mentor could help get over "stucks" and defensive anger and misunderstood
> intentions and understand the underlying processes helping people cope
> better and quicker and learn all through rather than be silenced to some
> back shelf and looked at later if they survive.
>
> I am not questioning how things are done, just looking at possibilities that
> may exist for damage control of newbie acclimatization for the hundreds in
> here that keep going through it all the time new people join and also the
> newbies themselves who find it difficult to find value when they are so busy
> defending themselves difficult to take expressions. It may also help us cope
> with things we find extreme and want to reject and look underneath our
> reactions to the message and its meaning for us.
>
> Vidyut
>
> PS: Now, I'm cringing at how Sandra will rip this post apart. Then I look at
> myself and ask for that trust and acceptance that she does it not because
> she hates me, but because she sees areas for alarm. If I'd like trust and
> acceptance of my intentions, I 'should' find the courage to live it too, no?
> Then I look at this whole process and see how it could be much more
> supportive, if I could sound the idea off an experienced mentor rather than
> litter every inbox on the list if it is not really useful and I take a deep
> breath and hit 'send'.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/8/2010 4:39 AM, Vidyut Kale wrote:
on this list is to monitor themselves for either/or thinking. When they
identify it and make a conscious effort to expand the options,
unschooling really takes off.
-pam
> Either shut up and cope with somethingThose aren't the only two choices. One of the things people really learn
> that is not helping you because it is on another level, or withdraw and go
> elsewhere and risk derailing your entire purpose for getting into all this.
>
on this list is to monitor themselves for either/or thinking. When they
identify it and make a conscious effort to expand the options,
unschooling really takes off.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-There seems to be a need among some members to find "softer
guidance", which
is *not* the same as not working on themselves-=-
Although I see that many people have responded already, I'm going to
write without reading those first.
The goal if this list is not for adult members to "work on
themselves." It's for children to be unschooled. It's for parents
who have decided not to put their children in school to find the tools
right now to help in the next moment, at their house, where their
children are living their current, busy lives.
Parents need to work on themselves on the side, while unschooling is
starting to work. That's deschooling. It might be therapy. It might
likely come as a natural side effect of rethinking what they thought
they knew before, of replacing "Teach" with "learn."
My site and Joyce's are full of a growing collection of good writings
no one person has ever read all of, FULL of the tools and tricks and
mind-opening ideas that will help people work on themselves.
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
I can't say people need to read all of those before posting here,
because nobody will ever read all of both of those.
I can say without a bit of hesitation that anyone who wasn't aware
that they existed should not post another word until reading for
several hours there.
I have objected to this "we" before, but it might be something the
writer is using without thinking.
Writing without thinking has always been discouraged on this list. It
should be discouraged in every corner of the world where writing can
be produced.
-=-We find what we seek, and seeking problems with what is
happening quickly leads newcomers into insecure terrain, while
experienced
members cope fluidly based on their understanding of the method. -=-
"Insecure terrain"?
There are hundreds of maps and camps and shady picnic tables and
warning signs and paths with handrails here:
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
-=-Some withdraw, others challenge, still others form breakaway
groups...-=-
Some run away, others whine and argue and flail and yell, and others
think they can do better.
Yes. We know. Some of us have been doing this for a long time.
You're not bringing news to the list. You're not bringing unschooling
assistance to the list.
-=-... but the need underlying them is the same - finding
understanding (as distinct from hand
holding and mollycoddling) in a way that they feel understood.-=-
The purpose of this list is to help people to understand unschooling,
not to help unschoolers understand every person who joins this list
for a day or two.
If people want to feel understood, that's what friends and therapists
are for. This list is for discussing principles and the workings of
natural learning, not to hear all about the relatives of every
member. We all have relatives. There are patterns. We all have
school experiences or memories. There are patterns. We all have
fears. There are patterns. We're here to discuss the patterns, not
the range of the patterns.
-=-Experienced members often understand. Sometimes better than the
person with the issue...-=-
Yes, and that is on the list, and that is the purpose of the list.
-=-...but it feels judgmental, since we are not at an experience level
to 'get it'. -=-
But that is not on the list and is not the purpose of the list.
The way someone feels inside should probably be kept inside, most of
the time. Feel it. If you want to feel differently, there is a great
deal of assistance for that purpose already gathered.
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
I will absolutely come back to this:
-=-I was wondering if mentoring could fill the need and reduce risks of
"slipping into complacency."-=-
This afternoon there'll be a chat. Is that hand-holding enough? Four
hours a week I'm immediately available. Some don't read or write fast
enough to enjoy it, but here's the announcement for today's:
Proposed topic: "Doing nothing" What does "nothing" look like?
If there are pressing problems or questions we can go off the topic,
but that will be the backup/base topic.
http://sandradodd.com/chats/regular
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
guidance", which
is *not* the same as not working on themselves-=-
Although I see that many people have responded already, I'm going to
write without reading those first.
The goal if this list is not for adult members to "work on
themselves." It's for children to be unschooled. It's for parents
who have decided not to put their children in school to find the tools
right now to help in the next moment, at their house, where their
children are living their current, busy lives.
Parents need to work on themselves on the side, while unschooling is
starting to work. That's deschooling. It might be therapy. It might
likely come as a natural side effect of rethinking what they thought
they knew before, of replacing "Teach" with "learn."
My site and Joyce's are full of a growing collection of good writings
no one person has ever read all of, FULL of the tools and tricks and
mind-opening ideas that will help people work on themselves.
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
I can't say people need to read all of those before posting here,
because nobody will ever read all of both of those.
I can say without a bit of hesitation that anyone who wasn't aware
that they existed should not post another word until reading for
several hours there.
I have objected to this "we" before, but it might be something the
writer is using without thinking.
Writing without thinking has always been discouraged on this list. It
should be discouraged in every corner of the world where writing can
be produced.
-=-We find what we seek, and seeking problems with what is
happening quickly leads newcomers into insecure terrain, while
experienced
members cope fluidly based on their understanding of the method. -=-
"Insecure terrain"?
There are hundreds of maps and camps and shady picnic tables and
warning signs and paths with handrails here:
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
-=-Some withdraw, others challenge, still others form breakaway
groups...-=-
Some run away, others whine and argue and flail and yell, and others
think they can do better.
Yes. We know. Some of us have been doing this for a long time.
You're not bringing news to the list. You're not bringing unschooling
assistance to the list.
-=-... but the need underlying them is the same - finding
understanding (as distinct from hand
holding and mollycoddling) in a way that they feel understood.-=-
The purpose of this list is to help people to understand unschooling,
not to help unschoolers understand every person who joins this list
for a day or two.
If people want to feel understood, that's what friends and therapists
are for. This list is for discussing principles and the workings of
natural learning, not to hear all about the relatives of every
member. We all have relatives. There are patterns. We all have
school experiences or memories. There are patterns. We all have
fears. There are patterns. We're here to discuss the patterns, not
the range of the patterns.
-=-Experienced members often understand. Sometimes better than the
person with the issue...-=-
Yes, and that is on the list, and that is the purpose of the list.
-=-...but it feels judgmental, since we are not at an experience level
to 'get it'. -=-
But that is not on the list and is not the purpose of the list.
The way someone feels inside should probably be kept inside, most of
the time. Feel it. If you want to feel differently, there is a great
deal of assistance for that purpose already gathered.
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
I will absolutely come back to this:
-=-I was wondering if mentoring could fill the need and reduce risks of
"slipping into complacency."-=-
This afternoon there'll be a chat. Is that hand-holding enough? Four
hours a week I'm immediately available. Some don't read or write fast
enough to enjoy it, but here's the announcement for today's:
Proposed topic: "Doing nothing" What does "nothing" look like?
If there are pressing problems or questions we can go off the topic,
but that will be the backup/base topic.
http://sandradodd.com/chats/regular
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=I know Ren Allen did or maybe still does offer phone counseling for a
fee. Anyone with a phone is free to offer that.-=-
She told me she didn't want to do that anymore. Something (I didn't
ask for more details) about people expecting too much and not really
trying to change, I think. Even for money, she wasn't willing to
spend her time unproductively.
-=-People who enjoy more hand holding style of help are less likely to
enjoy this list's style so the number who do who are on this list is
small. And of that small number how many have the skills necessary to
mentor someone?-=-
The reason I bring anonymous questions to the list (after telling
their authors to come to the list to read the responses) is twofold:
Every word I write in public helps lots of people. What I write in
private might not even help one person. It takes the same amount of
time, though, so I prefer to write in public. It's my volunteer time
and energy and I do get to choose how to apportion it.
The other reason is that maybe my one point of view won't help, and
that's why having a list like this is so wonderful. Others will see
different aspects and possibilities. They'll also see where my own
answers might have veered away from the original question, or might be
able to tweak something someone else has written to clarify it.
I don't want anyone depending on me for "answers." My site isn't just
my voice or writing.
Those who need individual mentoring are probably not going to do well
with unschooling, which requires creativity and courage and a LOT of
hours with one's children. MOST of the hours of every day and week
until they're grown, with one's children. Many have moved quickly
toward unschooling because they were willing to accept that they
didn't already know it all, and started trying out some of the ideas
provided on my site and Joyce's and on this list and other lists and
sites, and in books.
Resources are available.
Whining is getting old.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fee. Anyone with a phone is free to offer that.-=-
She told me she didn't want to do that anymore. Something (I didn't
ask for more details) about people expecting too much and not really
trying to change, I think. Even for money, she wasn't willing to
spend her time unproductively.
-=-People who enjoy more hand holding style of help are less likely to
enjoy this list's style so the number who do who are on this list is
small. And of that small number how many have the skills necessary to
mentor someone?-=-
The reason I bring anonymous questions to the list (after telling
their authors to come to the list to read the responses) is twofold:
Every word I write in public helps lots of people. What I write in
private might not even help one person. It takes the same amount of
time, though, so I prefer to write in public. It's my volunteer time
and energy and I do get to choose how to apportion it.
The other reason is that maybe my one point of view won't help, and
that's why having a list like this is so wonderful. Others will see
different aspects and possibilities. They'll also see where my own
answers might have veered away from the original question, or might be
able to tweak something someone else has written to clarify it.
I don't want anyone depending on me for "answers." My site isn't just
my voice or writing.
Those who need individual mentoring are probably not going to do well
with unschooling, which requires creativity and courage and a LOT of
hours with one's children. MOST of the hours of every day and week
until they're grown, with one's children. Many have moved quickly
toward unschooling because they were willing to accept that they
didn't already know it all, and started trying out some of the ideas
provided on my site and Joyce's and on this list and other lists and
sites, and in books.
Resources are available.
Whining is getting old.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/8/2010 8:16 AM, John and Amanda Slater wrote:
plain bewildered. I was reading things by Sandra and by others and they
were really obviously very intelligent women, but some of the things
they said seemed just so completely and totally unrealistic. I also read
them to my husband and he was even more bewildered than I was. I was
also spellbound and thrilled. I couldn't get enough. I remember feeling
as if there was an electric shock flowing through my body a few times
because of things I read. I remember almost gasping for breath, I was
hit so hard by some things people said.
I hear comments like that about Rue Kream's book. It happened again the
other day that someone said they thought it was just completely
unrealistic. I just smiled - no point in arguing that it very very
realistically describes my own family's lifestyle. The person just
wasn't able to stretch their imagination quite that far. Yet. If they
hang out with my family more, they will be more ready to believe it, I
think.
So - I'm reiterating what Amanda said - read selectively. Take what
makes sense. Don't take anything personally. Just smile or giggle (or
laugh hysterically) at the stuff that seems over the top.
And - I'd add that anything that gets your ire up, anything that gets
you feeling defensive, is something you probably need to take a much
closer look at. For yourself. Because - why on earth would you care to
stay and defend yourself to a bunch of people you don't even know. If it
really didn't apply, if it meant nothing, if it was totally off the mark
and you were really sure it was nothing you needed to consider, you'd
brush it off with barely a thought. You'd think, "Oh, she just doesn't
know my family," or "Huh? She missed the mark on that one," or "Well,
that shoe sure doesn't fit."
If nothing else, maybe people should examine their ned to feel supported
by perfect strangers of whom you know almost nothing.
Look at the ideas. Think about them. Think about whether they make sense
TO YOU for your own family. You are not joining a club or sorority and
you don't need to be accepted. No rush week. No pledging. No hazing. No
bid night.
Just read and think. That's all this list is for. If you like to think
out loud - then post your ideas. If you don't like to have your ideas
carefully and critically examined, don't post them. You don't have to.
Lots of people don't post, but are reading and thinking a lot. That is
totally fine. Recommended for newcomers. Recommended for those with very
young children. Or, if you're a little too eager to wait for topics to
naturally come around - ask questions that encourage people to post more
on topics you're interested in thinking about more. That works too.
-pam
> The rest of them seemed crazy and I read them aloud to my husband and we laughed at the insanity.Thanks for that image, Amanda! I remember feeling bewildered....just
plain bewildered. I was reading things by Sandra and by others and they
were really obviously very intelligent women, but some of the things
they said seemed just so completely and totally unrealistic. I also read
them to my husband and he was even more bewildered than I was. I was
also spellbound and thrilled. I couldn't get enough. I remember feeling
as if there was an electric shock flowing through my body a few times
because of things I read. I remember almost gasping for breath, I was
hit so hard by some things people said.
I hear comments like that about Rue Kream's book. It happened again the
other day that someone said they thought it was just completely
unrealistic. I just smiled - no point in arguing that it very very
realistically describes my own family's lifestyle. The person just
wasn't able to stretch their imagination quite that far. Yet. If they
hang out with my family more, they will be more ready to believe it, I
think.
So - I'm reiterating what Amanda said - read selectively. Take what
makes sense. Don't take anything personally. Just smile or giggle (or
laugh hysterically) at the stuff that seems over the top.
And - I'd add that anything that gets your ire up, anything that gets
you feeling defensive, is something you probably need to take a much
closer look at. For yourself. Because - why on earth would you care to
stay and defend yourself to a bunch of people you don't even know. If it
really didn't apply, if it meant nothing, if it was totally off the mark
and you were really sure it was nothing you needed to consider, you'd
brush it off with barely a thought. You'd think, "Oh, she just doesn't
know my family," or "Huh? She missed the mark on that one," or "Well,
that shoe sure doesn't fit."
If nothing else, maybe people should examine their ned to feel supported
by perfect strangers of whom you know almost nothing.
Look at the ideas. Think about them. Think about whether they make sense
TO YOU for your own family. You are not joining a club or sorority and
you don't need to be accepted. No rush week. No pledging. No hazing. No
bid night.
Just read and think. That's all this list is for. If you like to think
out loud - then post your ideas. If you don't like to have your ideas
carefully and critically examined, don't post them. You don't have to.
Lots of people don't post, but are reading and thinking a lot. That is
totally fine. Recommended for newcomers. Recommended for those with very
young children. Or, if you're a little too eager to wait for topics to
naturally come around - ask questions that encourage people to post more
on topics you're interested in thinking about more. That works too.
-pam
Dana Hayden
***It is a difficult place for a newbie. Either shut up and cope with
something
that is not helping you because it is on another level, or withdraw and go
elsewhere and risk derailing your entire purpose for getting into all
this.****
I don't think it is about shutting up, as it is about keep reading the
hundreds of pages that already exist on Sandra's website and also Joyce's.
No need to withdraw or go anywhere else.
The *support* for me comes from the the existence of this list.
From the time and effort, by people I had never met, had taken to write and
organize this information and keep in a place that I could find when I
needed it most.
It was a lot to understand at first, so I picked something small and simple
that resonated with me the most at the time. I started focusing on whether
the little things during the day were creating more peaceful relationships -
were my words and choices building up a relationship or tearing it down.
Just one choice at time. I kept reading and felt *mentored* by the fact
that good, informative and thoughtful emails were continuing to arrive in my
inbox each day - free.
Dana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
something
that is not helping you because it is on another level, or withdraw and go
elsewhere and risk derailing your entire purpose for getting into all
this.****
I don't think it is about shutting up, as it is about keep reading the
hundreds of pages that already exist on Sandra's website and also Joyce's.
No need to withdraw or go anywhere else.
The *support* for me comes from the the existence of this list.
From the time and effort, by people I had never met, had taken to write and
organize this information and keep in a place that I could find when I
needed it most.
It was a lot to understand at first, so I picked something small and simple
that resonated with me the most at the time. I started focusing on whether
the little things during the day were creating more peaceful relationships -
were my words and choices building up a relationship or tearing it down.
Just one choice at time. I kept reading and felt *mentored* by the fact
that good, informative and thoughtful emails were continuing to arrive in my
inbox each day - free.
Dana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Thanks, Casey; it's priceless, way more than two cents. <g> I'm
going to add links to what Casey has written here, for those who are
new to the list or who just want some reinforcement of these ideas
(and thanks for the summary, Casey!
- read more, post less, then go spend time with your children
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling (especially the zen teacup story up
top)
- there is immense value in reading the responses to "other" people's
issues
http://sandradodd.com/lists/help
http://sandradodd.com/list
http://sandradodd.com/feedback
- this list is about the ideas, not the individuals who post those
ideas, so there is no need to take anything personally
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning
- keep your heart and mind open, both to the list, but mostly to your
own children
http://sandradodd.com/being/
- it's gradual, so be gentle, with yourself and your children
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/doit
So I just wanted to say a huge thank you, I like this list just the
way it is.
Just my two-cents,
Casey
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
going to add links to what Casey has written here, for those who are
new to the list or who just want some reinforcement of these ideas
(and thanks for the summary, Casey!
- read more, post less, then go spend time with your children
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling (especially the zen teacup story up
top)
- there is immense value in reading the responses to "other" people's
issues
http://sandradodd.com/lists/help
http://sandradodd.com/list
http://sandradodd.com/feedback
- this list is about the ideas, not the individuals who post those
ideas, so there is no need to take anything personally
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning
- keep your heart and mind open, both to the list, but mostly to your
own children
http://sandradodd.com/being/
- it's gradual, so be gentle, with yourself and your children
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/doit
So I just wanted to say a huge thank you, I like this list just the
way it is.
Just my two-cents,
Casey
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
*********
Those who need individual mentoring are probably not going to do well
with unschooling, which requires creativity and courage and a LOT of
hours with one's children. MOST of the hours of every day and week
until they're grown, with one's children. Many have moved quickly
toward unschooling because they were willing to accept that they
didn't already know it all, and started trying out some of the ideas
provided on my site and Joyce's and on this list and other lists and
sites, and in books.
Resources are available.
Whining is getting old.
*********
yes - but some people need a "launch" - someone to open the door- or even SHOW them the door, to a different way. for some, they are not even really aware that a different paradigm exists, and so seeking out lists and books just doesn't occur to them.
i teach parenting classes. i co-teach actually, so that addresses your "not just one voice" thing, slightly.
we've evolved how we do it over the years, and the current format is a 2 hour intro, at which point, if the "fit" seems right, participants can sign up for once every other week (we might change it to once a month) discussion group.
the truth is, many many people have moved from taking our class, in an attempt to find a more gentle, mindful way of parenting, to unschooling, and quite quickly.
while maybe someone who needs a mentor on an ongoing basis might struggle more with unschooling, a transitional mentor can be really valuable, i think. i had someone like that when i first started unschooling (my kids were older) and just to be able to say what was on my mind, and have someone i trusted, who was *good* at unschooling, be direct with me about what she was observing, was really incredibly helpful. i try to do the same for the people who come to me. since i don't have *that* much experience with unschooling, i generally include in my suggestions and interpretations, many many links to pages on your and joyce's site, and encourage them to join unschooling lists, over and over again. and they do - if they are serious.
i have seen resistance, resistance, resistance - all of a sudden light goes on. but that wouldn't necessarily have happened, or not as quickly, or not without crisis first, without someone shining a light on the path....
we do charge for the classes, but i also give away lots of email time at no charge. it's actually really hard for me to make time to go to the classes, which is why they are infrequent, and why we charge. that and also, wanting people to feel invested not just be "checking it out" because it's free.
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Those who need individual mentoring are probably not going to do well
with unschooling, which requires creativity and courage and a LOT of
hours with one's children. MOST of the hours of every day and week
until they're grown, with one's children. Many have moved quickly
toward unschooling because they were willing to accept that they
didn't already know it all, and started trying out some of the ideas
provided on my site and Joyce's and on this list and other lists and
sites, and in books.
Resources are available.
Whining is getting old.
*********
yes - but some people need a "launch" - someone to open the door- or even SHOW them the door, to a different way. for some, they are not even really aware that a different paradigm exists, and so seeking out lists and books just doesn't occur to them.
i teach parenting classes. i co-teach actually, so that addresses your "not just one voice" thing, slightly.
we've evolved how we do it over the years, and the current format is a 2 hour intro, at which point, if the "fit" seems right, participants can sign up for once every other week (we might change it to once a month) discussion group.
the truth is, many many people have moved from taking our class, in an attempt to find a more gentle, mindful way of parenting, to unschooling, and quite quickly.
while maybe someone who needs a mentor on an ongoing basis might struggle more with unschooling, a transitional mentor can be really valuable, i think. i had someone like that when i first started unschooling (my kids were older) and just to be able to say what was on my mind, and have someone i trusted, who was *good* at unschooling, be direct with me about what she was observing, was really incredibly helpful. i try to do the same for the people who come to me. since i don't have *that* much experience with unschooling, i generally include in my suggestions and interpretations, many many links to pages on your and joyce's site, and encourage them to join unschooling lists, over and over again. and they do - if they are serious.
i have seen resistance, resistance, resistance - all of a sudden light goes on. but that wouldn't necessarily have happened, or not as quickly, or not without crisis first, without someone shining a light on the path....
we do charge for the classes, but i also give away lots of email time at no charge. it's actually really hard for me to make time to go to the classes, which is why they are infrequent, and why we charge. that and also, wanting people to feel invested not just be "checking it out" because it's free.
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-for some, they are not even really aware that a different paradigm
exists, and so seeking out lists and books just doesn't occur to them.
-=-
Then those people will never find this list, right?
Those who can't do some looking around will have a hard time helping
their kids look around, I think. A large part of unschooling is
exploration, and unless someone wants to guide a family for twelve or
eighteen years, we can't be promising the mountaintop to those who
don't really want to leave the house.
-=-while maybe someone who needs a mentor on an ongoing basis might
struggle more with unschooling, a transitional mentor can be really
valuable, i think. -=-
I met unschoolers at La Leche League meetings. People go to
conferences now to meet other unschoolers, or to regional campouts.
-=- i had someone like that when i first started unschooling (my kids
were older) and just to be able to say what was on my mind, and have
someone i trusted, who was *good* at unschooling, be direct with me
about what she was observing, was really incredibly helpful. -=-
Sometimes the first people who jump up and offer help are not
necessarily those who are good at unschooling. A couple of people
have come up with the beginnings of schemes to somehow certify
unschooling group leaders or mentors, but those people with the big
plans had personal problems themselves that weren't likely to lend
themselves to clarity or helping people with kids older than theirs
were, certainly. I hope those plans have completely died down,
because they're leading away from each unschooling parent learning in
and for herself what she would need to be a successful unschooler with
her own children in her own home.
-=i have seen resistance, resistance, resistance - all of a sudden
light goes on. but that wouldn't necessarily have happened, or not as
quickly, or not without crisis first, without someone shining a light
on the path....
-=-
We see that here too, but we miss the beautiful facial expression of
the light going on. Sometimes people send me notes, though. I save
parts of some of them.
http://sandradodd.com/feedback
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
exists, and so seeking out lists and books just doesn't occur to them.
-=-
Then those people will never find this list, right?
Those who can't do some looking around will have a hard time helping
their kids look around, I think. A large part of unschooling is
exploration, and unless someone wants to guide a family for twelve or
eighteen years, we can't be promising the mountaintop to those who
don't really want to leave the house.
-=-while maybe someone who needs a mentor on an ongoing basis might
struggle more with unschooling, a transitional mentor can be really
valuable, i think. -=-
I met unschoolers at La Leche League meetings. People go to
conferences now to meet other unschoolers, or to regional campouts.
-=- i had someone like that when i first started unschooling (my kids
were older) and just to be able to say what was on my mind, and have
someone i trusted, who was *good* at unschooling, be direct with me
about what she was observing, was really incredibly helpful. -=-
Sometimes the first people who jump up and offer help are not
necessarily those who are good at unschooling. A couple of people
have come up with the beginnings of schemes to somehow certify
unschooling group leaders or mentors, but those people with the big
plans had personal problems themselves that weren't likely to lend
themselves to clarity or helping people with kids older than theirs
were, certainly. I hope those plans have completely died down,
because they're leading away from each unschooling parent learning in
and for herself what she would need to be a successful unschooler with
her own children in her own home.
-=i have seen resistance, resistance, resistance - all of a sudden
light goes on. but that wouldn't necessarily have happened, or not as
quickly, or not without crisis first, without someone shining a light
on the path....
-=-
We see that here too, but we miss the beautiful facial expression of
the light going on. Sometimes people send me notes, though. I save
parts of some of them.
http://sandradodd.com/feedback
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/8/2010 9:07 AM, Lyla Wolfenstein wrote:
If what is being suggested is that it would help newbie unschoolers to
be friends with experienced unschoolers, then I couldn't agree more.
Sandra had people in her real life who inspired her and she could see in
person how they were with their kids, etc. I did too.
Good idea.
But - this idea of mentors sounds more like someone wanting to set up a
system, a program, a group...something organized to provide mentors.
I have good friends - and I think sometimes I am acting as a mentor,
because I'm older and my kids are older and I have more experience and
I'm pretty good at analyzing other people's situations and coming up
with some possible options for them to consider. But, just want to say,
that these are friends - this is something friends DO for each other.
Unschooling and parenting discussion is something I have to offer some
of my friends, but they have other things to offer me. And these
relationships developed over time - we got to know each other and liked
each other.
As far as parenting classes, go, people had to seek those out, too. And
they are group activities, not one-on-one mentoring.
-pam
> while maybe someone who needs a mentor on an ongoing basis might struggle more with unschooling, a transitional mentor can be really valuable, i think. i had someone like that when i first started unschooling (my kids were older) and just to be able to say what was on my mind, and have someone i trusted, who was*good* at unschooling, be direct with me about what she was observing, was really incredibly helpful. i try to do the same for the people who come to me. since i don't have*that* much experience with unschooling, i generally include in my suggestions and interpretations, many many links to pages on your and joyce's site, and encourage them to join unschooling lists, over and over again. and they do - if they are serious.You had a friend.
>
If what is being suggested is that it would help newbie unschoolers to
be friends with experienced unschoolers, then I couldn't agree more.
Sandra had people in her real life who inspired her and she could see in
person how they were with their kids, etc. I did too.
Good idea.
But - this idea of mentors sounds more like someone wanting to set up a
system, a program, a group...something organized to provide mentors.
I have good friends - and I think sometimes I am acting as a mentor,
because I'm older and my kids are older and I have more experience and
I'm pretty good at analyzing other people's situations and coming up
with some possible options for them to consider. But, just want to say,
that these are friends - this is something friends DO for each other.
Unschooling and parenting discussion is something I have to offer some
of my friends, but they have other things to offer me. And these
relationships developed over time - we got to know each other and liked
each other.
As far as parenting classes, go, people had to seek those out, too. And
they are group activities, not one-on-one mentoring.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-Those aren't the only two choices. One of the things people really
learn
on this list is to monitor themselves for either/or thinking. When they
identify it and make a conscious effort to expand the options,
unschooling really takes off.-=-
For anyone who wonders that Pam might be thinking (though most people
who have read more than they've posted will know), these two pages
will help. Not "might help." Will, if someone reads and listens to
the one audiofile, WILL help. If someone listens and reads with the
intent to learn, rather than with the intent to prove she already knew
everything, they will help.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
learn
on this list is to monitor themselves for either/or thinking. When they
identify it and make a conscious effort to expand the options,
unschooling really takes off.-=-
For anyone who wonders that Pam might be thinking (though most people
who have read more than they've posted will know), these two pages
will help. Not "might help." Will, if someone reads and listens to
the one audiofile, WILL help. If someone listens and reads with the
intent to learn, rather than with the intent to prove she already knew
everything, they will help.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am not questioning how things are done-=-
EEEEK.
That's all you've been doing since you first posted, complaining about
people who aren't here, complaining about people who are here.
-=-...just looking at possibilities that
may exist for damage control-=-
If there's damage, that must be bad. It seems critical, doesn't it?
We must not be doing things right if we need damage control.
-=-of newbie acclimatization for the hundreds in
here that keep going through it all the time new people join and also
the
newbies themselves who find it difficult to find value when they are
so busy
defending themselves-=-
Why defend themselves? There are many new group members. Not all are
new to unschooling. Some have been doing it a long time. Not all are
new to lists. Some came here because another list wasn't helpful.
Anyone who finds it difficult to find value can leave the list as
easily as they joined it.
-=-who find it difficult to find value when they are so busy
defending themselves difficult to take expressions.-=-
That doesn't make sense, "defending themselves difficult to take
expressions." I think if you had read your own post before you sent
it, you would have seen that it didn't make sense. Instead, hundreds
of people have read it and thought "that doesn't make sense," which is
a very big waste of the time of very many people.
Proofread your posts. Do not send what doesn't make sense. Do not
send what will not help other people understand unschooling.
-=-It may also help us cope
with things we find extreme and want to reject and look underneath our
reactions to the message and its meaning for us.-=-
"US" and "WE"?
It's still about the author, but by saying "us" and "we" there's an
attempt to co-opt other people into the complaints about the list.
-=-A list like this is a tremendous
source for finding it, which a new list could not be. Could we
leverage it
to everyone's happiness?-=-
Can this list be changed so that it makes one person happy so that she
can say "now everyone (meaning herself) is happy"?
No. This list should not be changed because one person who says "we"
and "us" too much can be happy.
This list isn't intended to make adults happy. It is intended to help
adults change so that their children can be happy, after which the
adults can be happy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
EEEEK.
That's all you've been doing since you first posted, complaining about
people who aren't here, complaining about people who are here.
-=-...just looking at possibilities that
may exist for damage control-=-
If there's damage, that must be bad. It seems critical, doesn't it?
We must not be doing things right if we need damage control.
-=-of newbie acclimatization for the hundreds in
here that keep going through it all the time new people join and also
the
newbies themselves who find it difficult to find value when they are
so busy
defending themselves-=-
Why defend themselves? There are many new group members. Not all are
new to unschooling. Some have been doing it a long time. Not all are
new to lists. Some came here because another list wasn't helpful.
Anyone who finds it difficult to find value can leave the list as
easily as they joined it.
-=-who find it difficult to find value when they are so busy
defending themselves difficult to take expressions.-=-
That doesn't make sense, "defending themselves difficult to take
expressions." I think if you had read your own post before you sent
it, you would have seen that it didn't make sense. Instead, hundreds
of people have read it and thought "that doesn't make sense," which is
a very big waste of the time of very many people.
Proofread your posts. Do not send what doesn't make sense. Do not
send what will not help other people understand unschooling.
-=-It may also help us cope
with things we find extreme and want to reject and look underneath our
reactions to the message and its meaning for us.-=-
"US" and "WE"?
It's still about the author, but by saying "us" and "we" there's an
attempt to co-opt other people into the complaints about the list.
-=-A list like this is a tremendous
source for finding it, which a new list could not be. Could we
leverage it
to everyone's happiness?-=-
Can this list be changed so that it makes one person happy so that she
can say "now everyone (meaning herself) is happy"?
No. This list should not be changed because one person who says "we"
and "us" too much can be happy.
This list isn't intended to make adults happy. It is intended to help
adults change so that their children can be happy, after which the
adults can be happy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
Diana--I got it after a moment and thought it a clever shorthand! <g> You've nicknamed a whole group of questions!
Joanna
Joanna
--- In [email protected], diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:
>
> **directed more towards the young adult ^unschuestions**
>
> I lost the middle! ...directed more towards the young adult unschoolers and
> their questions
> (twitter speak?)
> ~diana :)
> xoxoxoxo
> hannahbearski.wordpress.com
> hannahsashes.blogspot.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Lyla Wolfenstein
-=-for some, they are not even really aware that a different paradigm
exists, and so seeking out lists and books just doesn't occur to them.
-=-
Then those people will never find this list, right?
Those who can't do some looking around will have a hard time helping
their kids look around, I think. A large part of unschooling is
exploration, and unless someone wants to guide a family for twelve or
eighteen years, we can't be promising the mountaintop to those who
don't really want to leave the house.
if that neighbor had never opened up to me - if i had never shared my journey - she wouldn't have come to this particular decision. or maybe she would have, but it might have taken longer. she didn't pay me, it's true, but she's my neighbor. others never would have "found" me if not for the classes.
that said, i was just telling my teaching partner/friend that sometimes i prefer the free email help and guidance to the teaching/classes. but they do dovetail with each other.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
exists, and so seeking out lists and books just doesn't occur to them.
-=-
Then those people will never find this list, right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>except that i (and others in other cities) give them the links...
Those who can't do some looking around will have a hard time helping
their kids look around, I think. A large part of unschooling is
exploration, and unless someone wants to guide a family for twelve or
eighteen years, we can't be promising the mountaintop to those who
don't really want to leave the house.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>yes, although there are different degrees of looking around. people who decide to pull their kids out of school but don't know about unschooling, kids are older, they are not involved with LLL anymore, or they know about unschooling but they search online about it and find law of attraction stuff and get turned off <BWG>, or, the latest experience for me, a neighbor who went through a year+ long process of walking with me, talking with me, listening, observing, reading, experiencing more trauma with her child in school, and finally feeling ready to take the plunge. yes it would have been better to do it earlier. yes, there is probably lasting damage. but she is really "seeing the light" now and i believe she WILL make a good unschooler. my story is similar. i was aware of unschooling from the time my first child was 2 - my best friend is a lifelong radical unschooler. while i totally supported her and saw the value in it, for some bizarre reason i still haven't figured out, i still didn't apply it to myself and my family, until i was literally forced into it through crisis. so yes, i have personal experience that might color what i share with others, but i think it only colors it in the direction of the urgency of 'getting it". and i mostly get inquiries from parents with kids who are or would be experiencing similar crisis in school - not the ones that are getting along "fine". and because i took my kids out late, i do have the frame of reference of what deschooling can look like and what happens on the other end. a living example of that (i know there are many others!)
if that neighbor had never opened up to me - if i had never shared my journey - she wouldn't have come to this particular decision. or maybe she would have, but it might have taken longer. she didn't pay me, it's true, but she's my neighbor. others never would have "found" me if not for the classes.
that said, i was just telling my teaching partner/friend that sometimes i prefer the free email help and guidance to the teaching/classes. but they do dovetail with each other.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
Good idea.
But - this idea of mentors sounds more like someone wanting to set up a
system, a program, a group...something organized to provide mentors.
**************
oh - never mind then! lol. i apologize for not reading the entire thread before responding. i totally agree a "system" is not a good way to get mentorship.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But - this idea of mentors sounds more like someone wanting to set up a
system, a program, a group...something organized to provide mentors.
**************
oh - never mind then! lol. i apologize for not reading the entire thread before responding. i totally agree a "system" is not a good way to get mentorship.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
Hi,
Thank you everyone. These responses have given me much to think about. In
any case, I wasn't looking at a system as such, more like requests for short
duration. But then these probably happen to some extent through off-list
conversations when people "click"?
"US" and "WE"?
I was looking at the new community thread and the conversations that led up
to it. When I said we, I was looking speaking of inexperienced newcomers or
people otherwise having trouble unschooling. It wasn't a complaint. In fact,
I am fine with the list these days. It took me a bit, but I am going great.
Wasn't about my happiness being called the community's happiness. I manage
mine just fine most of the time.
As I read the responses, I see that it is really each one's choice,
including mine. If I am still here, I am still here. If someone finds well
being in starting their own list, that is their call and I am not required
to approve of it as a 'good learning choice'. I was feeling concerned that
people who obviously were having trouble were walking off into the storm on
their own. I was wondering if there are possibilities unexplored that could
help them right here. The 'we' was because I identified with them by virtue
of being new. It did seem that newcomers had different kinds of things on
our mind than more seasoned unschoolers.
I see now that much of what I was attempting to do was futile. No matter how
a community is, there will be people not in their element, and its okay.
More useful working with what is than looking at what's missing. What's
missing will always be infinite.
"That's not a bad thing. It's just how gatherings of people work." <-- I
'get it'.
More than that, I see that it boils down to trusting people to take what
works even if it seems improbable to me.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thank you everyone. These responses have given me much to think about. In
any case, I wasn't looking at a system as such, more like requests for short
duration. But then these probably happen to some extent through off-list
conversations when people "click"?
"US" and "WE"?
I was looking at the new community thread and the conversations that led up
to it. When I said we, I was looking speaking of inexperienced newcomers or
people otherwise having trouble unschooling. It wasn't a complaint. In fact,
I am fine with the list these days. It took me a bit, but I am going great.
Wasn't about my happiness being called the community's happiness. I manage
mine just fine most of the time.
As I read the responses, I see that it is really each one's choice,
including mine. If I am still here, I am still here. If someone finds well
being in starting their own list, that is their call and I am not required
to approve of it as a 'good learning choice'. I was feeling concerned that
people who obviously were having trouble were walking off into the storm on
their own. I was wondering if there are possibilities unexplored that could
help them right here. The 'we' was because I identified with them by virtue
of being new. It did seem that newcomers had different kinds of things on
our mind than more seasoned unschoolers.
I see now that much of what I was attempting to do was futile. No matter how
a community is, there will be people not in their element, and its okay.
More useful working with what is than looking at what's missing. What's
missing will always be infinite.
"That's not a bad thing. It's just how gatherings of people work." <-- I
'get it'.
More than that, I see that it boils down to trusting people to take what
works even if it seems improbable to me.
Vidyut
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I can't speak for others but I'm comfortable posting here because my
style already fit Sandra's parameters. I don't choose how to help
based on what people need. I just do what comes naturally and whoever
finds it useful is welcome to read.***
Right! AND Sandra is completely free to tell me I'm wrong about something, or question what I say, and she's done that and that's GOOD for me!
***I know Ren Allen did or maybe still does offer phone counseling for a
fee. Anyone with a phone is free to offer that.***
I didn't know Ren did that! Ren is wonderful and amazing!
***Another factor is that not everyone who can unschool well can or
wants to explain it. Since unschooling is already small to begin
with, that's an even smaller number.***
I have an unschooling friend that rarely goes online, if ever. She's a great mom and really understands unschooling. She didn't need to have her life on an unschooling list discussing unschooling. She spent her time in her garden and with her kids.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
style already fit Sandra's parameters. I don't choose how to help
based on what people need. I just do what comes naturally and whoever
finds it useful is welcome to read.***
Right! AND Sandra is completely free to tell me I'm wrong about something, or question what I say, and she's done that and that's GOOD for me!
***I know Ren Allen did or maybe still does offer phone counseling for a
fee. Anyone with a phone is free to offer that.***
I didn't know Ren did that! Ren is wonderful and amazing!
***Another factor is that not everyone who can unschool well can or
wants to explain it. Since unschooling is already small to begin
with, that's an even smaller number.***
I have an unschooling friend that rarely goes online, if ever. She's a great mom and really understands unschooling. She didn't need to have her life on an unschooling list discussing unschooling. She spent her time in her garden and with her kids.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/8/2010 6:25 PM, Vidyut Kale wrote:
It happens every day on this list.
I think you mean that it boils down to letting this list be what it is
and has been for many years and trusting that there are a lot of people,
hundreds, who appreciate it, enjoy it, and learn from it.
-pam
> More than that, I see that it boils down to trusting people to take whatImprobably that people will "take what works?"
> works even if it seems improbable to me.
>
It happens every day on this list.
I think you mean that it boils down to letting this list be what it is
and has been for many years and trusting that there are a lot of people,
hundreds, who appreciate it, enjoy it, and learn from it.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/8/2010 9:00 AM, Dana Hayden wrote:
question, even in the moment - relationship-building or
relationship-damaging?
Powerful!!
-pam
> I started focusing on whetherThis was how I did it, too. Simple to remember to ask myself this
> the little things during the day were creating more peaceful relationships -
> were my words and choices building up a relationship or tearing it down.
>
question, even in the moment - relationship-building or
relationship-damaging?
Powerful!!
-pam
k
What is missing may seem infinite but it's not as difficult to implement
once the ideas have some time to gel a bit with experience. Like someone
else mentioned, take what resonates and begin in small practical ways to
unschool. If you're like most people, that will be encouraging and it will
raise more questions too. I read extensively for years because I started
looking into unschooling ideas at the same time I came across other
parenting philosophies when Karl wasn't even 1 year old and I had some
luxury of time until he would have been "school age."
I quickly became passionate about the idea enough to really delve much much
more into the writings, purchased some of Holt's books eventually, as well
as books by other unschoolers such as Peggy Pirro and Rue Kream. I think
you're lucky because here you are and Sandra Dodd's writings and website
content by other authors is now available in book form... an incredible
resource! It just keeps getting easier and easier as the years go by to get
informed and to research and follow up on information.
So I came at unschooling by reading voraciously on the subject and trying it
out in my own home without really knowing that many unschoolers in real
life, only having occasionally met a few here and there. Do try unschooling
at home (and wherever you and your child/ren may roam in the big wide world
;)! Certainly feel free! Don't wait around. Start as soon as you can, and
that by itself will (more than likely) build in you lots of confidence and
plenty of steam for unschooling.
What's missing really is not infinite. Not to worry.
~Katherine
once the ideas have some time to gel a bit with experience. Like someone
else mentioned, take what resonates and begin in small practical ways to
unschool. If you're like most people, that will be encouraging and it will
raise more questions too. I read extensively for years because I started
looking into unschooling ideas at the same time I came across other
parenting philosophies when Karl wasn't even 1 year old and I had some
luxury of time until he would have been "school age."
I quickly became passionate about the idea enough to really delve much much
more into the writings, purchased some of Holt's books eventually, as well
as books by other unschoolers such as Peggy Pirro and Rue Kream. I think
you're lucky because here you are and Sandra Dodd's writings and website
content by other authors is now available in book form... an incredible
resource! It just keeps getting easier and easier as the years go by to get
informed and to research and follow up on information.
So I came at unschooling by reading voraciously on the subject and trying it
out in my own home without really knowing that many unschoolers in real
life, only having occasionally met a few here and there. Do try unschooling
at home (and wherever you and your child/ren may roam in the big wide world
;)! Certainly feel free! Don't wait around. Start as soon as you can, and
that by itself will (more than likely) build in you lots of confidence and
plenty of steam for unschooling.
What's missing really is not infinite. Not to worry.
~Katherine
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thank you everyone. These responses have given me much to think about. In
> any case, I wasn't looking at a system as such, more like requests for
> short
> duration. But then these probably happen to some extent through off-list
> conversations when people "click"?
>
> "US" and "WE"?
>
> I was looking at the new community thread and the conversations that led up
> to it. When I said we, I was looking speaking of inexperienced newcomers or
> people otherwise having trouble unschooling. It wasn't a complaint. In
> fact,
> I am fine with the list these days. It took me a bit, but I am going great.
> Wasn't about my happiness being called the community's happiness. I manage
> mine just fine most of the time.
>
> As I read the responses, I see that it is really each one's choice,
> including mine. If I am still here, I am still here. If someone finds well
> being in starting their own list, that is their call and I am not required
> to approve of it as a 'good learning choice'. I was feeling concerned that
> people who obviously were having trouble were walking off into the storm on
> their own. I was wondering if there are possibilities unexplored that could
> help them right here. The 'we' was because I identified with them by virtue
> of being new. It did seem that newcomers had different kinds of things on
> our mind than more seasoned unschoolers.
>
> I see now that much of what I was attempting to do was futile. No matter
> how
> a community is, there will be people not in their element, and its okay.
> More useful working with what is than looking at what's missing. What's
> missing will always be infinite.
>
> "That's not a bad thing. It's just how gatherings of people work." <-- I
> 'get it'.
>
> More than that, I see that it boils down to trusting people to take what
> works even if it seems improbable to me.
>
> Vidyut
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shira Rocklin
Several have been pointing out that 'mentors' can easily be found in
one's own community. This list isn't meant to provide that. I wanted
to add that probably most areas of the country, and most cities, have
homeschooling lists where there are bound to be unschoolers (I've
already met quite a few in Toronto through our local lists). That is
where one could find a mentor. I think that I would need to get to know
someone, be friends with them, look up to them, see them in their daily
lives somewhat, in order to consider them a mentor, to trust their
advice to apply to me specifically, rather than on a list like this,
where I can encounter and ponder new ideas without having to think they
are directed as advice to what I should do with my own family. A mentor
originating from a list like this would not provide very valuable
mentoring, without really knowing their 'charge' in real life.
Shira
one's own community. This list isn't meant to provide that. I wanted
to add that probably most areas of the country, and most cities, have
homeschooling lists where there are bound to be unschoolers (I've
already met quite a few in Toronto through our local lists). That is
where one could find a mentor. I think that I would need to get to know
someone, be friends with them, look up to them, see them in their daily
lives somewhat, in order to consider them a mentor, to trust their
advice to apply to me specifically, rather than on a list like this,
where I can encounter and ponder new ideas without having to think they
are directed as advice to what I should do with my own family. A mentor
originating from a list like this would not provide very valuable
mentoring, without really knowing their 'charge' in real life.
Shira
Sandra Dodd
-=-Several have been pointing out that 'mentors' can easily be found in
one's own community.-=-
In some communities "easy" isn't applicable.
I know of two unschoolers in India, and neither is near the same city
as Vidyut, as far as I know. There are isolated unschoolers in Italy,
South Africa, a family in China...
I also know that it's possible for people to unschool without an in-
person mentor.
I also know that some find e-mail friends or phone friends, or travel
to visit other families, even without conferences.
Some go to a conference and meet other people and keep in touch with
some of them.
There's a wide range of resources, and if online is the best thing
someone has, then it's the best. And it's pretty endless, the online
resource.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
one's own community.-=-
In some communities "easy" isn't applicable.
I know of two unschoolers in India, and neither is near the same city
as Vidyut, as far as I know. There are isolated unschoolers in Italy,
South Africa, a family in China...
I also know that it's possible for people to unschool without an in-
person mentor.
I also know that some find e-mail friends or phone friends, or travel
to visit other families, even without conferences.
Some go to a conference and meet other people and keep in touch with
some of them.
There's a wide range of resources, and if online is the best thing
someone has, then it's the best. And it's pretty endless, the online
resource.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>I can encounter and ponder new ideas without having to think theyare directed as advice to what I should do with my own family<<<
I think the above is a very good idea in real life or online, in any
situation, because ultimately I will want to make my own decisions based on
whatever comes to hand that might conceivably enhance (or hinder)
unschooling.
My own experience has been that even when people are reliable and their
example is fabulous, I don't find myself taking what they do or are and
making it programmatic for my life. What's organic for one is not
necessarily natural or helpful for another. Finding other unschoolers is
more like finding diversity within all and appreciating one's own potential
for living and creating an unschooling lifestyle for oneself in concert and
together with other family members in the home.
Toronto is a metropolis. A wonderful wide open place of possibilities for
unschooling networking. Maybe I'll get to travel there someday and take in
the scene. But many many unschoolers are like me, in the rural pockets all
over the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere internationally. Some of these places
are much more remote than others. That's ok. We do have the internet,
so.... I take advantage of that amazing resource with zero apologies. :D
~Katherine
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Shira Rocklin <shirarocklin@...>wrote:
> Several have been pointing out that 'mentors' can easily be found in
> one's own community. This list isn't meant to provide that. I wanted
> to add that probably most areas of the country, and most cities, have
> homeschooling lists where there are bound to be unschoolers (I've
> already met quite a few in Toronto through our local lists). That is
> where one could find a mentor. I think that I would need to get to know
> someone, be friends with them, look up to them, see them in their daily
> lives somewhat, in order to consider them a mentor, to trust their
> advice to apply to me specifically, rather than on a list like this,
> where I can encounter and ponder new ideas without having to think they
> are directed as advice to what I should do with my own family. A mentor
> originating from a list like this would not provide very valuable
> mentoring, without really knowing their 'charge' in real life.
>
> Shira
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***A couple of people
have come up with the beginnings of schemes to somehow certify
unschooling group leaders or mentors, but those people with the big
plans had personal problems themselves that weren't likely to lend
themselves to clarity or helping people with kids older than theirs
were, certainly. ***
Oh GAG! If I wanted certified people to aid in the education of my children, I'd send them to school! Certifying unschooling leaders is just about the most abusrd thing I've ever heard of! If a mom is focused on certifying others, how much time is she spending with her kids?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have come up with the beginnings of schemes to somehow certify
unschooling group leaders or mentors, but those people with the big
plans had personal problems themselves that weren't likely to lend
themselves to clarity or helping people with kids older than theirs
were, certainly. ***
Oh GAG! If I wanted certified people to aid in the education of my children, I'd send them to school! Certifying unschooling leaders is just about the most abusrd thing I've ever heard of! If a mom is focused on certifying others, how much time is she spending with her kids?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]