Issues with our mothers
Sandra Dodd
I have a request for a topic about frustration with mothers. I'm
about to go to sleep, though, so I hoped people here could make
suggestions.
Here's what I wrote for starters, to the person with the concerns.
=============
If there was any alcohol or drug use involved, al-anon could be
wonderfully helpful. Even if not, if there was any kind of
dysfunction, there's a little book you could probably find easily
called "Daily Affirmations," and it covers Lots of the the issues
frustrated kids (adult children from frustrating families<G>) deal with.
Used, from a penny (plus shipping)--you might find it in a used book
store near you, though, or just buy one new. It's worth it.
http://www.amazon.com/Daily-Affirmations-Adult-Children-Alcoholics/dp/0932194273/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265260852&sr=8-1
I have a good page in the Big Book about healing, but it was original
writing. Maybe tomorrow I'll pull it out of the word file and put it
on the list. But if you have that book, there are quite a few
sections that could help.
http://sandradodd.com/issues/
http://sandradodd.com/service
================
A couple of bits from the question I hope people can riff upon:
-=- I've read other unschoolers speak about, sort of healing how they
were parented by parenting.-=-
-=-I don't really want to do one thing the same as she did.-=-
-=-I would like to read about the healing of oneself aspect through
parenting your own child and getting through holding on to stuff with
one's own parent, I guess.-=-
I have two other suggestions, a link and a concept.
http://sandradodd.com/balance
and
"detachment," as used in AA and al-anon.
Good night; see ya'll in the morning.
Sandra
about to go to sleep, though, so I hoped people here could make
suggestions.
Here's what I wrote for starters, to the person with the concerns.
=============
If there was any alcohol or drug use involved, al-anon could be
wonderfully helpful. Even if not, if there was any kind of
dysfunction, there's a little book you could probably find easily
called "Daily Affirmations," and it covers Lots of the the issues
frustrated kids (adult children from frustrating families<G>) deal with.
Used, from a penny (plus shipping)--you might find it in a used book
store near you, though, or just buy one new. It's worth it.
http://www.amazon.com/Daily-Affirmations-Adult-Children-Alcoholics/dp/0932194273/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265260852&sr=8-1
I have a good page in the Big Book about healing, but it was original
writing. Maybe tomorrow I'll pull it out of the word file and put it
on the list. But if you have that book, there are quite a few
sections that could help.
http://sandradodd.com/issues/
http://sandradodd.com/service
================
A couple of bits from the question I hope people can riff upon:
-=- I've read other unschoolers speak about, sort of healing how they
were parented by parenting.-=-
-=-I don't really want to do one thing the same as she did.-=-
-=-I would like to read about the healing of oneself aspect through
parenting your own child and getting through holding on to stuff with
one's own parent, I guess.-=-
I have two other suggestions, a link and a concept.
http://sandradodd.com/balance
and
"detachment," as used in AA and al-anon.
Good night; see ya'll in the morning.
Sandra
Karen Norman
I was wanting to ask a question on this topic I¹ve been formulating it in
my head for ages but cant get it right! I keep wondering how people have
healed their own childhoods and how do you know when you have healed? I¹ve
been to counselling in the past and am very aware of the ways in which I do
not want to repeat my mothers parenting but how do you actually heal old
hurts and how do you know when they are healed?
I get confused cos my mum is still a source of frustration and anger in my
life she accuses me of holding onto anger from my childhood sometimes, but
I am usually angry/annoyed at her for stuff she is doing right now if I
think about stuff from the past it does piss me off, although I can sigh and
know she just did what she thought was right with the info and resources she
had at the time, but she continually impresses upon me how I parent totally
wrong, how my kids are gonna be beating me up by the time they are teens etc
etc (it goes on and on) she¹s just kinda unpleasable. And when she harps
on about my parenting it does make me feel like telling her that when she
becomes the perfect mother she can come and give me lectures then but until
then just STOP!!!! Of course I don¹t say this cos it would seem cruel I
just try and um and ar as she lectures just to keep the peace when I
challenge her she starts shouting and accusing and I end up feeling like it
really is all my fault and I am insane and need to go see a psychiatrist of
something last time she was shouting so loud she woke the baby up, so
mainly I just try to gloss over things with her.
Anyway I might have waffled on there too much will be interested to see
the responses on this topic thanks!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
my head for ages but cant get it right! I keep wondering how people have
healed their own childhoods and how do you know when you have healed? I¹ve
been to counselling in the past and am very aware of the ways in which I do
not want to repeat my mothers parenting but how do you actually heal old
hurts and how do you know when they are healed?
I get confused cos my mum is still a source of frustration and anger in my
life she accuses me of holding onto anger from my childhood sometimes, but
I am usually angry/annoyed at her for stuff she is doing right now if I
think about stuff from the past it does piss me off, although I can sigh and
know she just did what she thought was right with the info and resources she
had at the time, but she continually impresses upon me how I parent totally
wrong, how my kids are gonna be beating me up by the time they are teens etc
etc (it goes on and on) she¹s just kinda unpleasable. And when she harps
on about my parenting it does make me feel like telling her that when she
becomes the perfect mother she can come and give me lectures then but until
then just STOP!!!! Of course I don¹t say this cos it would seem cruel I
just try and um and ar as she lectures just to keep the peace when I
challenge her she starts shouting and accusing and I end up feeling like it
really is all my fault and I am insane and need to go see a psychiatrist of
something last time she was shouting so loud she woke the baby up, so
mainly I just try to gloss over things with her.
Anyway I might have waffled on there too much will be interested to see
the responses on this topic thanks!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
otherstar
>>>I keep wondering how people have healed their own childhoods and how do you know when you have healed? I¹ve been to counselling in the past and am very aware of the ways in which I do not want to repeat my mothers parenting but how do you actually heal old hurts and how do you know when they are healed?<<<For me, I had to acknowledge my childhood for what it was rather than trying to make it better or worse in my head. It is in the past and there is nothing that I can do to change it. I had to realize that there was no sense in beating myself up over something that I had no control over. I was a kid. It is the adult's responsibility to take care of the kids rather than the other way around. Trying to assign blame and untangle all of the emotions was killing me inside. Perhaps that is oversimplified but it boils down to acknowledging it and moving on. I feel like I will never be completely healed because those pains are still very much there but I have chosen to not let them control me. I have been working hard to become indifferent towards the pain in my childhood because I will never be happy about it and being mad about it wasn't helping either. I think I will be healed when I can be indifferent about it all the time. That hasn't happened so there is still a lot of work to do. I constantly remind myself to be careful about what I hate and to be careful about getting to knotted up over it. If I want to be different, I have to look at my childhood objectively and see it for the good and the bad. The more knotted up I was, the harder it was for me to be the parent that I wanted to be.
>>>I get confused cos my mum is still a source of frustration and anger in my life <<<I felt that way too until I realized that it was a matter of choice. I can have my mother in my life and be frustrated and angry or I can cut her out. I didn't like either of those choices so I tried to figure out a way to still have her in my life without getting so frustrated and angry. I had to apply some of the unschooling principles that I had learned and read about to my relationship with my mother. I had to accept her for who she is rather than continually getting frustrated and angry because of who she isn't. She has been the same person since I was a kid. There has been very little variation over the years. Why would she suddenly change?
>>>she accuses me of holding onto anger from my childhood sometimes<<<Is there a chance that she is right? I know I wasn't able to move away from the current anger until I let go of the past anger. I think I kept holding on to that anger because it was what I knew. If I let that anger go, then I wouldn't have an excuse to be mad at the world or my mom or anyone else. I was using the anger from my childhood as a crutch. The hardest thing for me to admit was that I was still getting something out of it.
>>>I am usually angry/annoyed at her for stuff she is doing right now<<<Then don't talk to her right now. When I find myself getting annoyed with everything that my mother says and does, I know it is time for me to take a break from my mom. If she calls, I don't answer the phone or tell her I am busy. I am an adult and I don't need people in my life that routinely annoy me and make me angry. When I am annoyed and angry, I find myself not doing better. I find myself slipping back into the patterns that I was raised with.
>>>but she continually impresses upon me how I parent totallywrong<<<
I had to set boundaries with my mother and my mother in law. If they want to question what I am doing because they genuinely want to understand my perspective, that is fine. If they want to tell me that what I am doing is wrong, I shut the conversation down. It took me quite a while to figure out how to do that. I would always feel so guilty afterward. Then, I realized that I deserved better and the only way that I was going to get that was to stand up for myself. I spent my life hoping that my mom would stand up for me and protect me but she never did. From her perspective, she did. From my perspective, her standing up and protecting me were a complete joke. If I wanted somebody to stand up for me, I had to do it for myself. I had to find power within myself. Nobody else could give that to me. It is something that I had to find within myself. It's really weird because once I find my own personal power I was able to let go of a lot of controlling behavior. So, when my mom starts lecturing me or control me in subtle ways, I remind myself that she has no personal power and is trying to find it by controlling people and things around her.
I realized that I didn't care whether or not my mother (or mother in law) liked my parenting style. I had to ask myself, "Why is her opinion so important?" If she was a stranger on the street, I wouldn't think much about it. Since it is my mother, I felt like I needed her approval. I had an epiphany one day and realized that my need to have her approve of me comes from growing up with an external locus of control. I spent my entire life hearing that we should look to our elders for approval because they are supposed to have all the answers and know more. Moving from an external focus to an internal one doesn't happen overnight. It is not easy to overcome a lifetime of messages that reinforce the adult centered paradigm.
>>>And when she harps on about my parenting it does make me feel like telling her that when shebecomes the perfect mother she can come and give me lectures then but until
then just STOP!!!! Of course I don¹t say this cos it would seem cruel I
just try and um and ar as she lectures just to keep the peace when I
challenge her she starts shouting and accusing and I end up feeling like it
really is all my fault and I am insane and need to go see a psychiatrist of
something last time she was shouting so loud she woke the baby up, so
mainly I just try to gloss over things with her.<<<
Do you live with your mother? The only time I ever listen to my mom to keep the peace is when I am physically at her house. If she does that stuff to me at her house, I leave. Why challenge her if you already know what the outcome is going to be? I learned to walk away and disengage. Every now and then I feel a little argumentative and actually engage but those times are finally starting to decrease. I knew what I needed to but just could not seem to do it successfully because I was at least getting some attention from her when she was giving me a lecture or going on about my siblings or somebody else that she currently hates. I don't want my kids to see that kind of crap. It used to infuriate me when my mother would start complaining about another family member when the kids were around. I finally had to tell her that it was not acceptable. I refuse to deliberately subject my kids to that crap. She finally figured out that I was serious because I would cut her off the minute she would start in on me. I would tell her, "I don't want to hear it." In the beginning, she would persist but then realized that I meant business because I would leave, get off the phone, or find another way to get the hell out of that situation. In the beginning when I was trying to figure out how to disengage, I would literally hang up on her. I had tried to be understanding and forgiving but I think ultimately she just wanted me to agree with her and tell her that I thought she was the best mom in the world. I think my mom and my mother in law both felt that my parenting choices were a rejection of them. They took our choices too personally and felt like my husband and I had personally rejected them by doing something so very different.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ana Maria Bruce
I am 51 years old and my whole parenting experience has been defending what I am doing. It created a stressful time with family and even strangers in a grocery store since I had a baby and usually 3 in tow. "Why are they not in school", "Why don't you work?" "Go get a pedicure look at those hands". "Rice milk, those kids need real milk".
Traveling and seeing all sorts of different families, cultures, etc., I realized that most of the things I dealt with were just a result of opinions of me. I grew up in a very opinionated family! I grew up in a very opinionated nation. I am very opinionated! ha! So I really cared what people believed about me or felt about me.....and I know now it is part of human nature, it's not a result of how we were raised or where we were born. We all have the same need to be recognized and accepted! We were given a choice as well to believe what others believe about us, some of it is true, some of it is not, and what we believe about ourselves. Both are a healthy balance that helps us heal.
When I started having children and learned about the wonderful world of attachment parenting, homeschooling, etc....I was just doing everything not the normal way.....so it made everyone insecure and frustrated or at least that is how I defined them. I didn't always fit into the homeschool groups either, and I probably don't fit into this group either ha! ha! just kidding. It doesn't matter if I fit in. None of us should fit into any group. Otherwise we are just fitting in. ha! Be the wonderful, unique different individual you were created to be. Spend your whole life being excited about finding out how to be this wonderful person growing inside of you!
I wished I had forsight to see that most of the people including my family really were just trying to figure out how to relate to me since I was always trying to control the environment that I was raising my children in.... I was very defensive and proactive in the sense I had all my bows and arrows ready when they attacked my lifestyle. Now I see it, then, I was over confident, but also very insecure which kept me from just being myself in someways. I was responding to everything from "if you want to feed your grandaughter....just make the oatmeal with honey instead of the condensed milk and sugar you so want to give." ha! ha! Where now I see my Mom just wanted to express herself as well. If I just would have let her feed my daughter the way she wanted. It wouldn't have killed her here and there! But it did damage our relationship. (my Mom and I) Especially now the baby I was so concerned about is creating wonderful gourmet
meals(which I am very proud of her), but they aren't all vegetarian or vegan or healthy(in my mind ha! ha!)
Healing has been a long process. Embracing the bad things in my life have made me who I am today, and I can't believe i am saying it but each day I am saying it with confidence that I am glad for all the things that have happened and I have definately not had horrible things happen to me, so I am sure those take even longer.
Opportunities then are what I look for now......opportunities to undo some of the things I have become(some of the bad attitudes, angry, etc.) , that is the healing, not out of guilt that I am working on things, but out of pleasure to retain who I was and who I am. I am talking giving back to the community, my family when I am around them. My Mom is in a home now, after many years of caring for her with my siblings...each time taking care of her crying as I would bathe her, wipe her bottom, not crying because I had to do it but crying that I wished I would have accepted her more. She truly was doing the best she could, even though in the process made me feel I wasn't good enough. I learned as she became sick that she was abused as a child and didn't ever recover from that and some other horrible experiences in her life. How she treated me was a reflection of that. That I feel very sad for, but it is not my responsiblity to carry the
responsibility for her healing, just mine. Each day I am able to let go of that negative voice of hers that was really a hurting child within, and that was her way of dealing with the pain. So when I hear my own, since I learned many of her ways, I recognize it is that hurting child within me, but I am dealing with my pain.
AnaMaria
Traveling and seeing all sorts of different families, cultures, etc., I realized that most of the things I dealt with were just a result of opinions of me. I grew up in a very opinionated family! I grew up in a very opinionated nation. I am very opinionated! ha! So I really cared what people believed about me or felt about me.....and I know now it is part of human nature, it's not a result of how we were raised or where we were born. We all have the same need to be recognized and accepted! We were given a choice as well to believe what others believe about us, some of it is true, some of it is not, and what we believe about ourselves. Both are a healthy balance that helps us heal.
When I started having children and learned about the wonderful world of attachment parenting, homeschooling, etc....I was just doing everything not the normal way.....so it made everyone insecure and frustrated or at least that is how I defined them. I didn't always fit into the homeschool groups either, and I probably don't fit into this group either ha! ha! just kidding. It doesn't matter if I fit in. None of us should fit into any group. Otherwise we are just fitting in. ha! Be the wonderful, unique different individual you were created to be. Spend your whole life being excited about finding out how to be this wonderful person growing inside of you!
I wished I had forsight to see that most of the people including my family really were just trying to figure out how to relate to me since I was always trying to control the environment that I was raising my children in.... I was very defensive and proactive in the sense I had all my bows and arrows ready when they attacked my lifestyle. Now I see it, then, I was over confident, but also very insecure which kept me from just being myself in someways. I was responding to everything from "if you want to feed your grandaughter....just make the oatmeal with honey instead of the condensed milk and sugar you so want to give." ha! ha! Where now I see my Mom just wanted to express herself as well. If I just would have let her feed my daughter the way she wanted. It wouldn't have killed her here and there! But it did damage our relationship. (my Mom and I) Especially now the baby I was so concerned about is creating wonderful gourmet
meals(which I am very proud of her), but they aren't all vegetarian or vegan or healthy(in my mind ha! ha!)
Healing has been a long process. Embracing the bad things in my life have made me who I am today, and I can't believe i am saying it but each day I am saying it with confidence that I am glad for all the things that have happened and I have definately not had horrible things happen to me, so I am sure those take even longer.
Opportunities then are what I look for now......opportunities to undo some of the things I have become(some of the bad attitudes, angry, etc.) , that is the healing, not out of guilt that I am working on things, but out of pleasure to retain who I was and who I am. I am talking giving back to the community, my family when I am around them. My Mom is in a home now, after many years of caring for her with my siblings...each time taking care of her crying as I would bathe her, wipe her bottom, not crying because I had to do it but crying that I wished I would have accepted her more. She truly was doing the best she could, even though in the process made me feel I wasn't good enough. I learned as she became sick that she was abused as a child and didn't ever recover from that and some other horrible experiences in her life. How she treated me was a reflection of that. That I feel very sad for, but it is not my responsiblity to carry the
responsibility for her healing, just mine. Each day I am able to let go of that negative voice of hers that was really a hurting child within, and that was her way of dealing with the pain. So when I hear my own, since I learned many of her ways, I recognize it is that hurting child within me, but I am dealing with my pain.
AnaMaria
Sandra Dodd
-=- My Mom is in a home now, after many years of caring for her with
my siblings...each time taking care of her crying as I would bathe
her, wipe her bottom, not crying because I had to do it but crying
that I wished I would have accepted her more. She truly was doing the
best she could, even though in the process made me feel I wasn't good
enough. I learned as she became sick that she was abused as a child
and didn't ever recover from that and some other horrible experiences
in her life. How she treated me was a reflection of that. That I
feel very sad for, but it is not my responsiblity to carry the
responsibility for her healing, just mine. -=-
Yes, that kind of compassion for the harms inflicted on our mothers
can be helpful. I wiped my mom's butt, and she ended up dying in her
own apartment, having lied to me and lied to her best friend
(conflicting lies, to keep each of us only knowing half of what was
going on). I didn't cry at all. But I was also, at that point, I
was already fifteen years or so into making up for the damage she had
done by parenting my own children in ways I would like to have been
parented, and it was serving to heal my own soul and memories as well.
-=- It doesn't matter if I fit in. None of us should fit into any
group. Otherwise we are just fitting in. ha! -=-
In this list it will matter. If you don't fit in I'll throw you out.
But "fit in" doesn't mean agree with everything everyone says, it
means focus on helping clarify what will help others understand
unschooling better.
All of us on this list should fit in with the purpose of the list or
go to other lists. I can say that, because I own the list and have
a lot of years invested in it. As other lists around me have appeared
and dissolved, this one is still good and strong. It's not an accident!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
my siblings...each time taking care of her crying as I would bathe
her, wipe her bottom, not crying because I had to do it but crying
that I wished I would have accepted her more. She truly was doing the
best she could, even though in the process made me feel I wasn't good
enough. I learned as she became sick that she was abused as a child
and didn't ever recover from that and some other horrible experiences
in her life. How she treated me was a reflection of that. That I
feel very sad for, but it is not my responsiblity to carry the
responsibility for her healing, just mine. -=-
Yes, that kind of compassion for the harms inflicted on our mothers
can be helpful. I wiped my mom's butt, and she ended up dying in her
own apartment, having lied to me and lied to her best friend
(conflicting lies, to keep each of us only knowing half of what was
going on). I didn't cry at all. But I was also, at that point, I
was already fifteen years or so into making up for the damage she had
done by parenting my own children in ways I would like to have been
parented, and it was serving to heal my own soul and memories as well.
-=- It doesn't matter if I fit in. None of us should fit into any
group. Otherwise we are just fitting in. ha! -=-
In this list it will matter. If you don't fit in I'll throw you out.
But "fit in" doesn't mean agree with everything everyone says, it
means focus on helping clarify what will help others understand
unschooling better.
All of us on this list should fit in with the purpose of the list or
go to other lists. I can say that, because I own the list and have
a lot of years invested in it. As other lists around me have appeared
and dissolved, this one is still good and strong. It's not an accident!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***And when she harps
on about my parenting it does make me feel like telling her that when she
becomes the perfect mother she can come and give me lectures then but until
then just STOP!!!! ***
You could put it in writing maybe, instead of the heat of the moment. Tell her not to harp and lecture and until she can find a way to communicate without doing that, then she should just stop.
***last time she was shouting so loud she woke the baby up, so
mainly I just try to gloss over things with her.***
Tell her she's not allowed to do that in your house. My daughter's boyfriend's dad is a jerk most of the time. Out of all of his jerkness, that is the one part that is the worst for his son, it does the most damage and creates nothing but animosity. If you've chosen to not have shouting in your house, don't let people shout in it.
If your mom does that everytime she comes over, don't invite her over. If she wonders why she's not being invited tell her that she can come over if she can find a way to talk without shouting. Maybe tell her that if she can come over and play nice long enough for you to save on therapy bills, then you'll use that extra money to take her out to dinner at a fancy restaurant.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
on about my parenting it does make me feel like telling her that when she
becomes the perfect mother she can come and give me lectures then but until
then just STOP!!!! ***
You could put it in writing maybe, instead of the heat of the moment. Tell her not to harp and lecture and until she can find a way to communicate without doing that, then she should just stop.
***last time she was shouting so loud she woke the baby up, so
mainly I just try to gloss over things with her.***
Tell her she's not allowed to do that in your house. My daughter's boyfriend's dad is a jerk most of the time. Out of all of his jerkness, that is the one part that is the worst for his son, it does the most damage and creates nothing but animosity. If you've chosen to not have shouting in your house, don't let people shout in it.
If your mom does that everytime she comes over, don't invite her over. If she wonders why she's not being invited tell her that she can come over if she can find a way to talk without shouting. Maybe tell her that if she can come over and play nice long enough for you to save on therapy bills, then you'll use that extra money to take her out to dinner at a fancy restaurant.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
*** If I wanted somebody to stand up for me, I had to do it for myself. I had to find power within myself. Nobody else could give that to me. It is something that I had to find within myself. It's really weird because once I find my own personal power I was able to let go of a lot of controlling behavior. So, when my mom starts lecturing me or control me in subtle ways, I remind myself that she has no personal power and is trying to find it by controlling people and things around her. ***
THIS right here is why I parent my teen differently than more traditional parents. I don't ever want my kids to go through this, ever! I see this all around me, it is the standard way in which parents treat and behave towards teenagers. Teens come into their own minds and bodies, have their own ideas and perceptions of the world. Kids do too, but the awareness changes.
Suddenly parents who once had little kids they could easily manipulate and control, who they had great power over, have kids that want to manipulate and control their own worlds, they want their own power. From that point onward, it seems, it is a power struggle that someone will lose. People are meant to find themselves and the power within themselves, it's a huge part of puberty.
Our culture, in general, does a huge amount of damage to young people this way, controlling, manipulating, and infantilizing them. What I want as a parent, and what my children want, shouldn't be at odds with each other. Parents should exist to give their children a lift up to see the from a better place. If I'm controlling, manipulating, and infantilizing my almost grown child, I can't really lift her up, nor would she let me, I would be an obstacle for her. This gets played out in all kinds of households and schools help by keeping powerful young minds at bay, when they really want to just get out and sail the world.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
THIS right here is why I parent my teen differently than more traditional parents. I don't ever want my kids to go through this, ever! I see this all around me, it is the standard way in which parents treat and behave towards teenagers. Teens come into their own minds and bodies, have their own ideas and perceptions of the world. Kids do too, but the awareness changes.
Suddenly parents who once had little kids they could easily manipulate and control, who they had great power over, have kids that want to manipulate and control their own worlds, they want their own power. From that point onward, it seems, it is a power struggle that someone will lose. People are meant to find themselves and the power within themselves, it's a huge part of puberty.
Our culture, in general, does a huge amount of damage to young people this way, controlling, manipulating, and infantilizing them. What I want as a parent, and what my children want, shouldn't be at odds with each other. Parents should exist to give their children a lift up to see the from a better place. If I'm controlling, manipulating, and infantilizing my almost grown child, I can't really lift her up, nor would she let me, I would be an obstacle for her. This gets played out in all kinds of households and schools help by keeping powerful young minds at bay, when they really want to just get out and sail the world.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Jenny's whole post was great, but this gives me an idea:
-=- From that point onward, it seems, it is a power struggle that
someone will lose. -=-
This is antagonism, and most relationships are based on win/lose
antagonism.
My relationship with my kids, thanks to advice given to me by La Leche
League leaders (Carol Rice, particularly and most memorably, whose
birthday party I'm going to tonight) is partners, not adversaries.
When I didn't know whether Kirby would be an only child or not, I
decided to be his partner, and I have tried to be as good a partner as
I could be. When Kirby wins, we both win.
If a parent long ago set up a win/lose situation and a child lost for
eighteen years, or twenty years, and that "child" now has a child, I
don't think it would be sinful or awful if there was some way to make
that point, that it was the mother's idea to set up a situation in
which only one could win, but that once there is a new generation, the
mother needs to stop "being the winner." She could have stopped that
years before, but she could start now, if she wants to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=- From that point onward, it seems, it is a power struggle that
someone will lose. -=-
This is antagonism, and most relationships are based on win/lose
antagonism.
My relationship with my kids, thanks to advice given to me by La Leche
League leaders (Carol Rice, particularly and most memorably, whose
birthday party I'm going to tonight) is partners, not adversaries.
When I didn't know whether Kirby would be an only child or not, I
decided to be his partner, and I have tried to be as good a partner as
I could be. When Kirby wins, we both win.
If a parent long ago set up a win/lose situation and a child lost for
eighteen years, or twenty years, and that "child" now has a child, I
don't think it would be sinful or awful if there was some way to make
that point, that it was the mother's idea to set up a situation in
which only one could win, but that once there is a new generation, the
mother needs to stop "being the winner." She could have stopped that
years before, but she could start now, if she wants to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
> When I didn't know whether Kirby would be an only child or not, II find it hard to communicate that idea to some people. The trouble
> decided to be his partner, and I have tried to be as good a partner as
> I could be. When Kirby wins, we both win.
seems to begin when a parent decides that the kid winning isn't a win
for the parent. In other words, the parent only loses if the kid wins.
It's not about partnership, then. It's about compromise, instead
ie."they must give up something because I'm giving up something." I
don't think that's a good basis for a relationship, though I guess it
could be the least of the evils of mainstream parenting.
Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I find it hard to communicate that idea to some people. The trouble
seems to begin when a parent decides that the kid winning isn't a win
for the parent. In other words, the parent only loses if the kid wins.-
=-
I think that's the problem with "consensual living," too, in which it
is always possible for someone to be losing. There is "the
consensus," the fragile, occasional team (it seems to be) and the
moving-toward-consensus (where if people aren't careful, someone's
going to be losing any second now...)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
seems to begin when a parent decides that the kid winning isn't a win
for the parent. In other words, the parent only loses if the kid wins.-
=-
I think that's the problem with "consensual living," too, in which it
is always possible for someone to be losing. There is "the
consensus," the fragile, occasional team (it seems to be) and the
moving-toward-consensus (where if people aren't careful, someone's
going to be losing any second now...)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
This is from the Big Book, in the section on deschooling. It's my
writing, to the end (pages 16-17)
Plain old Fear: Some of the fears people have felt and reported are
fear of "the truant officer," the principal, the police, social
services, the neighbors, their own parents and other relatives.
Another set of fears are that the children will never leave home, that
they will never get a job, that they couldn�t get into college if they
wanted to. The way to overcome the first set is to be circumspect and
polite and helpful. Stay out of trouble. The way to deal with the
second set is to meet some unschoolers, or at least find a place where
you can read about them as they're growing up, those who are older
than your own children. If possible, find locals to hang out with, or
attend a conference or two.
New unschoolers are often afraid. If you feel fear, that's natural.
If you've taken a child out of school, there is still a school there
you could put him back into, so if your fear is that it's a once and
forever decision, it's not. Schools are right there, still.
If you feel that you're turning your back on your entire culture, take
a deep breath and note that when you turn your back on school, all
that's behind you is a school. What's not school is infinite. What
is school is small.
Fear of rejection by all your relatives can be frightening. Think of
worst case scenarios. If these people have been controlling you with
threats and shame for twenty or thirty years, do you owe them another
thirty years?
I've been accused of encouraging parents to separate children from
their grandparents. I know why some grandparents would have said
that. And the tone with which I was approached was very familiar to
me, too. It was along the lines of "Who do you think you are, little
missy?"
Yeah. It wasn't even my mom, mother-in-law or grandmother! But it
was someone's.
I don't want children separated from their parents or grandparents. I
want the parents and grandparents to be kind and generous to the
children. I want parents to be kind and gentle with their children
even if the children are 25 or 45 years old. I'm old enough now that
any parent of any age who wants to explain to me how it is in the real
world can back down and hush. I'm not theorizing and I'm not being
reactionary. I'm making conscious choices and helping others see the
possibility of doing so as well, for the sake of their relationships
with their children and partners, friends and parents. Choices,
though; not just choosing to continue to be told what to do.
School has become so much a part of life in the past few decades that
it seems to some that taking their children out of school is like
leaving the planet altogether. You will be relieved, then, to
discover that school takes kids out of the world but unschooling gives
it back. I know it can sound wrong and crazy. Keep reading. Keep
watching your kids. Listen to your memories of childhood.
http://SandraDodd.com/deschooling
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writing, to the end (pages 16-17)
Plain old Fear: Some of the fears people have felt and reported are
fear of "the truant officer," the principal, the police, social
services, the neighbors, their own parents and other relatives.
Another set of fears are that the children will never leave home, that
they will never get a job, that they couldn�t get into college if they
wanted to. The way to overcome the first set is to be circumspect and
polite and helpful. Stay out of trouble. The way to deal with the
second set is to meet some unschoolers, or at least find a place where
you can read about them as they're growing up, those who are older
than your own children. If possible, find locals to hang out with, or
attend a conference or two.
New unschoolers are often afraid. If you feel fear, that's natural.
If you've taken a child out of school, there is still a school there
you could put him back into, so if your fear is that it's a once and
forever decision, it's not. Schools are right there, still.
If you feel that you're turning your back on your entire culture, take
a deep breath and note that when you turn your back on school, all
that's behind you is a school. What's not school is infinite. What
is school is small.
Fear of rejection by all your relatives can be frightening. Think of
worst case scenarios. If these people have been controlling you with
threats and shame for twenty or thirty years, do you owe them another
thirty years?
I've been accused of encouraging parents to separate children from
their grandparents. I know why some grandparents would have said
that. And the tone with which I was approached was very familiar to
me, too. It was along the lines of "Who do you think you are, little
missy?"
Yeah. It wasn't even my mom, mother-in-law or grandmother! But it
was someone's.
I don't want children separated from their parents or grandparents. I
want the parents and grandparents to be kind and generous to the
children. I want parents to be kind and gentle with their children
even if the children are 25 or 45 years old. I'm old enough now that
any parent of any age who wants to explain to me how it is in the real
world can back down and hush. I'm not theorizing and I'm not being
reactionary. I'm making conscious choices and helping others see the
possibility of doing so as well, for the sake of their relationships
with their children and partners, friends and parents. Choices,
though; not just choosing to continue to be told what to do.
School has become so much a part of life in the past few decades that
it seems to some that taking their children out of school is like
leaving the planet altogether. You will be relieved, then, to
discover that school takes kids out of the world but unschooling gives
it back. I know it can sound wrong and crazy. Keep reading. Keep
watching your kids. Listen to your memories of childhood.
http://SandraDodd.com/deschooling
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna
"but how do you actually heal old
When I was in my late teens and early 20's my mother would play the "you're selfish" card if she felt less powerful. It would always cause me to back off and do what she wanted. Then I figured out it was a game, in the sense that it was about manipulation--not a genuine, unbiased assessment that I was actually selfish. In fact, I was far from it. I stopped reacting to it, and lo and behold she maybe tried it twice after that and never said it again.
"if I
But then she'll likely play the "you're a bad daughter for being disrespectful" card. But you can see it coming.
"And when she harps
"it does make me feel like telling her that when she
You have been the peace-keeper for someone who doesn't have control over her own emotions. But you don't need to continue that role. But you also can't wait for your mother to change things. She won't change without YOU making the first move. You've been waiting for HER to grow up--expecting her to be the adult, the parent. But now you are a parent and you can claim the right to peace for yourself.
"I just try and um and ar as she lectures just to keep the peace when I
Joanna
> hurts and how do you know when they are healed?"You will know they are healed when you feel a sense of choice in regards to your mother. You have no choice right now but to play out the same mother-child relationship you've always played out. You are the peace-keeper. You, as an adult, have choices, but you have to claim them.
>Her suggestion that you are holding onto stuff from the past is a smokescreen. She has likely figured out, probably intuitively, that she can stump you if she plays that card. In other words, she gets you thinking about how there is something wrong with you and then you allow her to be mean to you in the present.
> "I get confused cos my mum is still a source of frustration and anger in my
> life she accuses me of holding onto anger from my childhood sometimes, but
> I am usually angry/annoyed at her for stuff she is doing right now"
When I was in my late teens and early 20's my mother would play the "you're selfish" card if she felt less powerful. It would always cause me to back off and do what she wanted. Then I figured out it was a game, in the sense that it was about manipulation--not a genuine, unbiased assessment that I was actually selfish. In fact, I was far from it. I stopped reacting to it, and lo and behold she maybe tried it twice after that and never said it again.
"if I
> think about stuff from the past it does piss me off, although I can sigh andWhy would you allow that kind of conversation? (Don't answer, just ask yourself. It's a clue that something's not "right") If I came to your door, befriended you, and then criticized your parenting, I'll bet you'd know what to say to me. You need some boundaries!
> know she just did what she thought was right with the info and resources she
> had at the time, but she continually impresses upon me how I parent totally
> wrong,"
But then she'll likely play the "you're a bad daughter for being disrespectful" card. But you can see it coming.
"And when she harps
> on about my parenting"Just smile and change the subject. Literally. Ask her if she's going to see The Lightning Thief when it opens--if she'd like to go with the kids. Make it obvious that you don't want to talk about that. There is no law saying that your companion gets to talk about whatever they want whether you like it or not. Even if it's your mother.
"it does make me feel like telling her that when she
> becomes the perfect mother she can come and give me lectures then but untilThere are choices that aren't either cruel OR "keeping the peace." Of course, it will mean a shift in the fundamental relationship, and that's the reason that many adult children will NOT take this step in healing. Healing means change, and change feels scary. That's why we don't do it more often. You need to be able to LET the relationship change--and it won't feel the same, but if your mother wants to have one with you, she'll start meeting you half way, instead of insisting it be on her terms.
> then just STOP!!!! Of course I don¹t say this cos it would seem cruel"
You have been the peace-keeper for someone who doesn't have control over her own emotions. But you don't need to continue that role. But you also can't wait for your mother to change things. She won't change without YOU making the first move. You've been waiting for HER to grow up--expecting her to be the adult, the parent. But now you are a parent and you can claim the right to peace for yourself.
"I just try and um and ar as she lectures just to keep the peace when I
> challenge her she starts shouting and accusing and I end up feeling like itAsk her calmly, politely and kindly to leave, since this is too disruptive for the children. Promise to continue the conversation later when you are "both more calm."
> really is all my fault and I am insane and need to go see a psychiatrist of
> something last time she was shouting so loud she woke the baby up, so
> mainly I just try to gloss over things with her."
Joanna
Joanna
--- In [email protected], "Joanna" <ridingmom@...> wrote:
I like to think, when I'm having trouble with something, "What would this feel like/look like if it were healthy?" In a healthy relationship there is more consideration, more give and take. You'll have to reclaim, in as graceful a way as you can manage, your lost space. This may ruffle some feathers, but there's a difference between being agressive vs. being assertive. They may both ruffle feathers at first, but assertiveness will allow for your mom to have wiggle room later.
Joanna
>And space. I get the sense from your post that there is no space--no wiggle room. No where to go when she "goes off" about you. Just you standing there, in a tight little bubble, while she fills the room, and maybe the whole house, with her stuff.
> "but how do you actually heal old
> > hurts and how do you know when they are healed?"
>
> You will know they are healed when you feel a sense of choice in regards to your mother.
I like to think, when I'm having trouble with something, "What would this feel like/look like if it were healthy?" In a healthy relationship there is more consideration, more give and take. You'll have to reclaim, in as graceful a way as you can manage, your lost space. This may ruffle some feathers, but there's a difference between being agressive vs. being assertive. They may both ruffle feathers at first, but assertiveness will allow for your mom to have wiggle room later.
Joanna
Sandra Dodd
On the question of how people heal, I've brought something else from
the big book of unschooling. Page 271:
Healing
Just as the adult a child will be already lives in him, so the child
you were still lives in you as an adult. If you have memories of
childhood, examine them objectively sometimes when you're considering
how to be with your own children.
There might be things from your past that you would do just as your
parents did, and by doing that you would honor the happiness you
remember from childhood. That's a way to show gratitude to your
parents even if they're not living anymore.
There might be things you remember that you would not want to pass on
to your children. For me, being put to bed alone in a dark room is
not something healing for me or for my children. When I let them have
a light, or let them sleep with me and their dad or wherever they want
to, I imagine peacefully how nice that would have been for me, as a
child, and that soothes and heals my soul. I still have the memories,
but they're not as scary. They don't trigger resentment now, but
nicer emotions, because now they're about my own children.
The list of things that marred your childhood can be your checklist of
things to avoid or change or undo. The things that brought joy to you
as a child can be things for you to do for and with your children,
too, if you can.
Knowing some of my husband's childhood hurts helped too. Those also
went on the "don't do this" list in my heart. Sometimes I was able to
find little ways to see and comfort the little boy still living in
that big strong man who works so hard to take care of us.
For me, the most healing thing of all was feeling that I was being a
good mother. That didn't happen because of unschooling, it happened
because of breastfeeding my first baby. I was doing something
profoundly right, and it was deeply bonding for us. I had nursed the
second baby and was pregnant with the third when we started
unschooling. It seemed the logical extension of the attachment
parenting that had made me feel so confident as a parent, and so good
about myself from that present day back to my earliest memories.
When I soothe my child, I soothe myself.
http://SandraDodd.com/parentingpeacefully
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the big book of unschooling. Page 271:
Healing
Just as the adult a child will be already lives in him, so the child
you were still lives in you as an adult. If you have memories of
childhood, examine them objectively sometimes when you're considering
how to be with your own children.
There might be things from your past that you would do just as your
parents did, and by doing that you would honor the happiness you
remember from childhood. That's a way to show gratitude to your
parents even if they're not living anymore.
There might be things you remember that you would not want to pass on
to your children. For me, being put to bed alone in a dark room is
not something healing for me or for my children. When I let them have
a light, or let them sleep with me and their dad or wherever they want
to, I imagine peacefully how nice that would have been for me, as a
child, and that soothes and heals my soul. I still have the memories,
but they're not as scary. They don't trigger resentment now, but
nicer emotions, because now they're about my own children.
The list of things that marred your childhood can be your checklist of
things to avoid or change or undo. The things that brought joy to you
as a child can be things for you to do for and with your children,
too, if you can.
Knowing some of my husband's childhood hurts helped too. Those also
went on the "don't do this" list in my heart. Sometimes I was able to
find little ways to see and comfort the little boy still living in
that big strong man who works so hard to take care of us.
For me, the most healing thing of all was feeling that I was being a
good mother. That didn't happen because of unschooling, it happened
because of breastfeeding my first baby. I was doing something
profoundly right, and it was deeply bonding for us. I had nursed the
second baby and was pregnant with the third when we started
unschooling. It seemed the logical extension of the attachment
parenting that had made me feel so confident as a parent, and so good
about myself from that present day back to my earliest memories.
When I soothe my child, I soothe myself.
http://SandraDodd.com/parentingpeacefully
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lilyfoil
Thank you all for this thread. I just had an epiphany in the last few days that my anger is no longer serving me -- I think it was a way of coping through my difficult childhood and young adult times, but it is keeping me from being fully the parent I want to be for my kids. So I am going to let it go.
Sandra Dodd
I just found this in my drafts folder. I don't know why I didn't mail
it.
Because of recent discussions in the chat and on facebook, though, I'm
going to mail it now. It doesn't matter anymore (didn't even then)
who wrote the original or who the quotes are. It's about the ideas
and the principles.
--------------------------------
-=-but she continually impresses upon me how I parent totally
wrong, how my kids are gonna be beating me up by the time they are
teens etc-=-
I'm going to pull a technicality on your language. She continually
something, but does she "impress" it upon you? Is she making the
sound, or is it having an effect on you?
That's about boundaries. Maybe she should stop talking, but even if
she talks incessantly for the next ten years, is it possible that you
can hear it as noise that doesn't really "impress upon" you? Are you
stronger than her intentions?
Some people are still very affected by their parents' opinions. Some
stopped being so affected way before they were adults. Some parental
complaints are fear-based and whiney. Some are bullying, and
overbearing.
-=- And when she harps
on about my parenting it does make me feel like telling her that when
she
becomes the perfect mother she can come and give me lectures then but
until
then just STOP!!!! Of course I dont say this cos it would seem cruel
I
just try and um and ar as she lectures just to keep the peace when I
challenge her she starts shouting and accusing and I end up feeling
like it
really is all my fault and I am insane and need to go see a
psychiatrist of
something last time she was shouting so loud she woke the baby up, so
mainly I just try to gloss over things with her.-=-
Does she live with you? If she was visiting and shouted loud enough
to wake the baby up, that's really bad.
If she lives there, it's bad but still her house (perhaps). Those
factors make a difference in the options.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it.
Because of recent discussions in the chat and on facebook, though, I'm
going to mail it now. It doesn't matter anymore (didn't even then)
who wrote the original or who the quotes are. It's about the ideas
and the principles.
--------------------------------
-=-but she continually impresses upon me how I parent totally
wrong, how my kids are gonna be beating me up by the time they are
teens etc-=-
I'm going to pull a technicality on your language. She continually
something, but does she "impress" it upon you? Is she making the
sound, or is it having an effect on you?
That's about boundaries. Maybe she should stop talking, but even if
she talks incessantly for the next ten years, is it possible that you
can hear it as noise that doesn't really "impress upon" you? Are you
stronger than her intentions?
Some people are still very affected by their parents' opinions. Some
stopped being so affected way before they were adults. Some parental
complaints are fear-based and whiney. Some are bullying, and
overbearing.
-=- And when she harps
on about my parenting it does make me feel like telling her that when
she
becomes the perfect mother she can come and give me lectures then but
until
then just STOP!!!! Of course I dont say this cos it would seem cruel
I
just try and um and ar as she lectures just to keep the peace when I
challenge her she starts shouting and accusing and I end up feeling
like it
really is all my fault and I am insane and need to go see a
psychiatrist of
something last time she was shouting so loud she woke the baby up, so
mainly I just try to gloss over things with her.-=-
Does she live with you? If she was visiting and shouted loud enough
to wake the baby up, that's really bad.
If she lives there, it's bad but still her house (perhaps). Those
factors make a difference in the options.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I'm responding to myself, to that post I found from February.
And maybe the reason I pulled it was because I had a friend who told
me Kirby was going to hit me when he was grown because I didn't hit
him when he was little (five, at the time of the threat/curse). Six
or eight years ago, I would have told you that her son DID grow up to
hit her (even though, or perhaps *because*, she hit him) but six or
eight months ago, I would have told you that now her son is dead.
Overdose, either on purpose or accidental or inflicted by someone
else. Found dead on a street downtown, in mid December 2009. He was
about Marty's age.
I have another thing to say about "on a street downtown."
If Jefferson (because that was his name; Jeff short for Jefferson) had
felt more comfortable being at home, than being downtown using hard
drugs in the winter, he might be alive, but he didn't choose to be
around his mother, as a young man.
If Jefferson had been home playing video games (no matter how
"violent" they might have been called by wagging-fingered mothers who
liked to control their boys), he would have been home, near food and a
toilet; near a phone and a bed; in a house that could be locked. He
would have been safer at home playing video games than whatever he was
doing downtown with drugs.
Don't listen to what people are saying if their own children aren't
extremely happy and well-adjusted.
If the person who's talking to you is your own mother, if you have
resentments and sorrows from childhood that are still hurting you,
think twice before letting her tell you to treat your children as she
treated you.
But more than all of that, don't live in the future or in the past.
Live today. If today is comfortable and loving and good, it will make
it easier to make tomorrow that way. After some hundreds or thousands
of comfortable, loving, good days, it makes it easier for the days and
years after that to be better.
Sandra
And maybe the reason I pulled it was because I had a friend who told
me Kirby was going to hit me when he was grown because I didn't hit
him when he was little (five, at the time of the threat/curse). Six
or eight years ago, I would have told you that her son DID grow up to
hit her (even though, or perhaps *because*, she hit him) but six or
eight months ago, I would have told you that now her son is dead.
Overdose, either on purpose or accidental or inflicted by someone
else. Found dead on a street downtown, in mid December 2009. He was
about Marty's age.
I have another thing to say about "on a street downtown."
If Jefferson (because that was his name; Jeff short for Jefferson) had
felt more comfortable being at home, than being downtown using hard
drugs in the winter, he might be alive, but he didn't choose to be
around his mother, as a young man.
If Jefferson had been home playing video games (no matter how
"violent" they might have been called by wagging-fingered mothers who
liked to control their boys), he would have been home, near food and a
toilet; near a phone and a bed; in a house that could be locked. He
would have been safer at home playing video games than whatever he was
doing downtown with drugs.
Don't listen to what people are saying if their own children aren't
extremely happy and well-adjusted.
If the person who's talking to you is your own mother, if you have
resentments and sorrows from childhood that are still hurting you,
think twice before letting her tell you to treat your children as she
treated you.
But more than all of that, don't live in the future or in the past.
Live today. If today is comfortable and loving and good, it will make
it easier to make tomorrow that way. After some hundreds or thousands
of comfortable, loving, good days, it makes it easier for the days and
years after that to be better.
Sandra
Jenny Cyphers
Thank you Sandra!
***Some people are still very affected by their parents' opinions. Some
stopped being so affected way before they were adults. Some parental
complaints are fear-based and whiney. Some are bullying, and
overbearing.***
I'm affected by my parent's opinions. I like my parents, however our
relationship was pretty typical in the teen years where I had to fight for
independence and in the process my relationship with my mother was damaged. It
took years to be able to really talk to her as 2 adults, but still, that teen
inside of me remembers and there are things I just don't talk about with her.
It all came down to trust. Simply put, my mother didn't trust me and I was a
good kid who didn't lie, who got mostly straight A's, didn't party or drink or
smoke, and I kept my room clean, and she STILL didn't trust me.
When Chamille tells me ANY thing, I believe her first. If it turns out she
wasn't telling the truth then we'll deal with that when it happens. So far that
hasn't happened and because I trust her and she deeply knows it, she tells me
things that most kids don't tell their parents.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***Some people are still very affected by their parents' opinions. Some
stopped being so affected way before they were adults. Some parental
complaints are fear-based and whiney. Some are bullying, and
overbearing.***
I'm affected by my parent's opinions. I like my parents, however our
relationship was pretty typical in the teen years where I had to fight for
independence and in the process my relationship with my mother was damaged. It
took years to be able to really talk to her as 2 adults, but still, that teen
inside of me remembers and there are things I just don't talk about with her.
It all came down to trust. Simply put, my mother didn't trust me and I was a
good kid who didn't lie, who got mostly straight A's, didn't party or drink or
smoke, and I kept my room clean, and she STILL didn't trust me.
When Chamille tells me ANY thing, I believe her first. If it turns out she
wasn't telling the truth then we'll deal with that when it happens. So far that
hasn't happened and because I trust her and she deeply knows it, she tells me
things that most kids don't tell their parents.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Same here. My folks had four daughters who all did as they were told,
for the most part, even me and I was the most obstinate. Yet I did
(reluctantly) clean and do chores they said they expected me to do, I
didn't go out and party up like crazy (or at all!) as really that
choice wasn't available to me way out on a mini-farm in the rural
countryside, and when I left home.. same thing. I still followed a lot
of their rules for a long while anyway when I could have gone wild
(and a lot of people do ... something that can be riskily done or more
safely done). But still my folks were and still are very suspicious
and don't talk much except in warnings and all sorts of (silly seeming
to me) predictions of doom. I haven't gone back to live with them.
That's for sure. Not much trust either way. I had friends I could
trust though and that helped me out in many a pinch.
When I was still living in their home, the mother of one of my
sister's friends said there was no WAY any of my parent's children
would ever EVer disgrace their parents. And it's true. None of us have
disgraced our parents (disgrace is my father's word there). :)
Proving your parents wrong by living by your own choices is hardly
disgraceful. It may not be in total complete agreement. But there's no
disgrace in living by your own lights, as they say. I see it as a
positive good. :)
I agree with Sandra and Jenny that it isn't safe to insist on
controlling, distrustful and potentially destructive interactions with
one's children. My parents were lucky in most respects, and I'm glad
they didn't get so "into" with any of us that we were permanently
estranged. We have all needed them later in life at one time or
another and they have been there for us as much as they were able to.
They lean very heavily on the religion idea but I just forgive them
for it and overlook it now that I'm 45 and not so under their thumb.
;)
~Katherine
for the most part, even me and I was the most obstinate. Yet I did
(reluctantly) clean and do chores they said they expected me to do, I
didn't go out and party up like crazy (or at all!) as really that
choice wasn't available to me way out on a mini-farm in the rural
countryside, and when I left home.. same thing. I still followed a lot
of their rules for a long while anyway when I could have gone wild
(and a lot of people do ... something that can be riskily done or more
safely done). But still my folks were and still are very suspicious
and don't talk much except in warnings and all sorts of (silly seeming
to me) predictions of doom. I haven't gone back to live with them.
That's for sure. Not much trust either way. I had friends I could
trust though and that helped me out in many a pinch.
When I was still living in their home, the mother of one of my
sister's friends said there was no WAY any of my parent's children
would ever EVer disgrace their parents. And it's true. None of us have
disgraced our parents (disgrace is my father's word there). :)
Proving your parents wrong by living by your own choices is hardly
disgraceful. It may not be in total complete agreement. But there's no
disgrace in living by your own lights, as they say. I see it as a
positive good. :)
I agree with Sandra and Jenny that it isn't safe to insist on
controlling, distrustful and potentially destructive interactions with
one's children. My parents were lucky in most respects, and I'm glad
they didn't get so "into" with any of us that we were permanently
estranged. We have all needed them later in life at one time or
another and they have been there for us as much as they were able to.
They lean very heavily on the religion idea but I just forgive them
for it and overlook it now that I'm 45 and not so under their thumb.
;)
~Katherine
On 9/14/10, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
> Thank you Sandra!
>
> ***Some people are still very affected by their parents' opinions. Some
> stopped being so affected way before they were adults. Some parental
> complaints are fear-based and whiney. Some are bullying, and
> overbearing.***
>
> I'm affected by my parent's opinions. I like my parents, however our
> relationship was pretty typical in the teen years where I had to fight for
> independence and in the process my relationship with my mother was damaged.
> It
> took years to be able to really talk to her as 2 adults, but still, that
> teen
> inside of me remembers and there are things I just don't talk about with
> her.
>
> It all came down to trust. Simply put, my mother didn't trust me and I was
> a
> good kid who didn't lie, who got mostly straight A's, didn't party or drink
> or
> smoke, and I kept my room clean, and she STILL didn't trust me.
>
> When Chamille tells me ANY thing, I believe her first. If it turns out she
> wasn't telling the truth then we'll deal with that when it happens. So far
> that
> hasn't happened and because I trust her and she deeply knows it, she tells
> me
> things that most kids don't tell their parents.
katelovessunshine
>extremely happy and well-adjusted.
>Don't listen to what people are saying if their own children aren't
>>I like this Sandra, I'm going to pass it on.
My sister & I reunited after 20 years of not speaking. Not because we had a problem but the people & lies we grew up around pushed both of us away so far that she & I lost contact, sad. But the good news is we reconnected last year and it's been really great overall.
Our children are amazing together, mine are teens hers are 1 & 4. She's coming around to change her views about the past for the sake of the present and her kids. It's delightful and I hope for the best.
She is unschool/homeschool curious but hesitant because of what people & her in-laws will think. With my return and examples of happy teenagers she's feeling a pull in a child-centered way. Oh, oh... and she's finding herself in the middle of many homeschoolers ( completely separate from me, her neighborhood has been overrun with homeschoolers!
Back to the quote... really, look at the results: how are the kids, how are the parents, do they live in a way you want to live? Do they have what you want for your children?
Kate
Sandra Dodd
-=-Really, look at the results: how are the kids, how are the parents,
do they live in a way you want to live? Do they have what you want for
your children? -=-
When Kirby and Marty were tiny and Holly wasn't born, we hung out with
a La Leche League crowd, mostly leaders (though I wasn't a leader) and
saw various of them several times a week, in different combinations,
because of a weekly park day and a babysitting co-op where kids
visited and stayed and did projects for points the parents kept on a
chart.
Two of those families were unschooling. Each of those families had
three or four children (one eventually had nine). Two other families
in the group were homeschoolers using school-at-home methods. We
weren't planning to homeschool Kirby, but I was around those families
in casual and more formal ways. I was around kids without parents;
the parents without kids. I saw how they treated nursing infants, and
how they treated six- and seven-year-olds.
When Kirby was nearly five and it was nearly time for him to go to
kindergarten, we decided to wait a year--to homeschool kindergarten.
The decision of how to do it was simple. We wanted our family to be
more like those unschooling families, and MUCH less-to-not-at-all like
those school-at-home families.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
do they live in a way you want to live? Do they have what you want for
your children? -=-
When Kirby and Marty were tiny and Holly wasn't born, we hung out with
a La Leche League crowd, mostly leaders (though I wasn't a leader) and
saw various of them several times a week, in different combinations,
because of a weekly park day and a babysitting co-op where kids
visited and stayed and did projects for points the parents kept on a
chart.
Two of those families were unschooling. Each of those families had
three or four children (one eventually had nine). Two other families
in the group were homeschoolers using school-at-home methods. We
weren't planning to homeschool Kirby, but I was around those families
in casual and more formal ways. I was around kids without parents;
the parents without kids. I saw how they treated nursing infants, and
how they treated six- and seven-year-olds.
When Kirby was nearly five and it was nearly time for him to go to
kindergarten, we decided to wait a year--to homeschool kindergarten.
The decision of how to do it was simple. We wanted our family to be
more like those unschooling families, and MUCH less-to-not-at-all like
those school-at-home families.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dola dasgupta-banerji
>>>>Don't listen to what people are saying if their own children aren'textremely happy and well-adjusted.
If the person who's talking to you is your own mother, if you have
resentments and sorrows from childhood that are still hurting you,
think twice before letting her tell you to treat your children as she
treated you.<<<<<
These words fill my heart with joy and silence of sadness both. Simply
because I have operated from this space of fear for years. I am so glad to
have found my own true voice where I can fearlessly tell even my mother and
father and my in laws to stop telling me to raise my children the way they
raised theirs. The amount of hard inner work I did for me to reach this
space is incredible and I am very happy for myself and at the moment that is
NOW, the children are blossoming pure and whole.
Dola
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:17 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> I'm responding to myself, to that post I found from February.
>
> And maybe the reason I pulled it was because I had a friend who told
> me Kirby was going to hit me when he was grown because I didn't hit
> him when he was little (five, at the time of the threat/curse). Six
> or eight years ago, I would have told you that her son DID grow up to
> hit her (even though, or perhaps *because*, she hit him) but six or
> eight months ago, I would have told you that now her son is dead.
> Overdose, either on purpose or accidental or inflicted by someone
> else. Found dead on a street downtown, in mid December 2009. He was
> about Marty's age.
>
> I have another thing to say about "on a street downtown."
>
> If Jefferson (because that was his name; Jeff short for Jefferson) had
> felt more comfortable being at home, than being downtown using hard
> drugs in the winter, he might be alive, but he didn't choose to be
> around his mother, as a young man.
>
> If Jefferson had been home playing video games (no matter how
> "violent" they might have been called by wagging-fingered mothers who
> liked to control their boys), he would have been home, near food and a
> toilet; near a phone and a bed; in a house that could be locked. He
> would have been safer at home playing video games than whatever he was
> doing downtown with drugs.
>
> Don't listen to what people are saying if their own children aren't
> extremely happy and well-adjusted.
> If the person who's talking to you is your own mother, if you have
> resentments and sorrows from childhood that are still hurting you,
> think twice before letting her tell you to treat your children as she
> treated you.
>
> But more than all of that, don't live in the future or in the past.
> Live today. If today is comfortable and loving and good, it will make
> it easier to make tomorrow that way. After some hundreds or thousands
> of comfortable, loving, good days, it makes it easier for the days and
> years after that to be better.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I am so glad to
have found my own true voice where I can fearlessly tell even my
mother and
father and my in laws to stop telling me to raise my children the way
they
raised theirs. -=-
Sometimes that can be softened by saying "I know you did the best you
could, and did what you thought was right, and I'm grateful for that,
but we have looked and read and searched our souls and now we want to
do what *we* think will help our children grow up whole and strong."
Or something like that. :-)
Acknowledging that they were good parents within what they knew and
wanted seems important. And putting it in those terms, they might
think about whether they really DID make choices, or whether they just
went along with the greater flow of the day. But they don't need to
admit it or discuss it. It will, though, I think, plant the seed for
them to accept that you ARE thinking and making decisions in a
conscious and thoughtful way.
Sandra
have found my own true voice where I can fearlessly tell even my
mother and
father and my in laws to stop telling me to raise my children the way
they
raised theirs. -=-
Sometimes that can be softened by saying "I know you did the best you
could, and did what you thought was right, and I'm grateful for that,
but we have looked and read and searched our souls and now we want to
do what *we* think will help our children grow up whole and strong."
Or something like that. :-)
Acknowledging that they were good parents within what they knew and
wanted seems important. And putting it in those terms, they might
think about whether they really DID make choices, or whether they just
went along with the greater flow of the day. But they don't need to
admit it or discuss it. It will, though, I think, plant the seed for
them to accept that you ARE thinking and making decisions in a
conscious and thoughtful way.
Sandra
dola dasgupta-banerji
Yes , surely I completely understand what you are saying. Thank you. when we
find ourselves, then we are strong within, so it becomes so much easier to
be gentle towards others.
It is only when we are weak and unsure and angry from within that we put up
an act of toughness and being strong and then we are harsh and judgmental
with others.
what a lovely and warm space this is.
Dola
find ourselves, then we are strong within, so it becomes so much easier to
be gentle towards others.
It is only when we are weak and unsure and angry from within that we put up
an act of toughness and being strong and then we are harsh and judgmental
with others.
what a lovely and warm space this is.
Dola
On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 7:36 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=- I am so glad to
>
> have found my own true voice where I can fearlessly tell even my
> mother and
> father and my in laws to stop telling me to raise my children the way
> they
> raised theirs. -=-
>
> Sometimes that can be softened by saying "I know you did the best you
> could, and did what you thought was right, and I'm grateful for that,
> but we have looked and read and searched our souls and now we want to
> do what *we* think will help our children grow up whole and strong."
>
> Or something like that. :-)
>
> Acknowledging that they were good parents within what they knew and
> wanted seems important. And putting it in those terms, they might
> think about whether they really DID make choices, or whether they just
> went along with the greater flow of the day. But they don't need to
> admit it or discuss it. It will, though, I think, plant the seed for
> them to accept that you ARE thinking and making decisions in a
> conscious and thoughtful way.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michele Jacobsen
>>>>>when we find ourselves, then we are strong within, so it becomes somuch easier to
>>>>>be gentle towards others.we put up
>>>>>It is only when we are weak and unsure and angry from within that
>>>>>an act of toughness and being strong and then we are harsh andjudgmental
>>>>>with others.Oh no, that was uncomfortable for me. Like looking in a mirror . Ouch.
Thought I was doing so well, being loving and kind and gentle. But I
*may* have a little fakeness to it because I can get really defensive
and tough. Dola, can you recommend a book (if it was a book) that
helped you find that lovely warm space? Anyone else? I just got Loving
What Is by Byron Katie.
Thanks to all for this great list.
Michele
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deena Seckinger
>>>>>when we find ourselves, then we are strong within, so it becomes somuch easier to be gentle towards others.
>>>>>It is only when we are weak and unsure and angry from within thatwe put up an act of toughness and being strong and then we are harsh and
judgmental with others.
*******************************
My first reaction to this was that it was an unfounded and inaccurate generalization. I tried looking again to see if I could find truth in it as it pertains to me and my life. I have a short fuse and a great deal of anger in dealing with my husband's parents right now so that is the basis of my examination. As I contemplated your statement and knew that I *am* strong within myself and I *know* we are living a wonderful life, I then needed to find the connection to my anger and harshness regarding the in-laws. I came to this: I am "weak" in that I have no control over their threats to call social services and I am "unsure" of whether they will do that or not and I am "angry" that they care more about being "right" (i.e. having our children in school and in church) than they do about our children OR their relationships with our children.
I would warn to be very careful about platitudes....writing or reading, giving or receiving...but I was able to find a relationship with this within my life, fwiw.
Deena in McDonough, GA
"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." — Albert Einstein
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I would warn to be very careful about platitudes-=-
Why?
What do you consider "a platitude"?
Look at these, please, and if you think they are platitudes, let me
know.
http://sandradodd.com/quotes (those show at the top of http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
, one at a time)
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
If you think they are not platitudes, please reconsider using that
term on this list.
Or give examples of platitudes you "would warn" [who? everyone on this
list?] someone to be "very careful" about."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Why?
What do you consider "a platitude"?
Look at these, please, and if you think they are platitudes, let me
know.
http://sandradodd.com/quotes (those show at the top of http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
, one at a time)
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
If you think they are not platitudes, please reconsider using that
term on this list.
Or give examples of platitudes you "would warn" [who? everyone on this
list?] someone to be "very careful" about."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
> I would warn to be very careful about platitudes....writing or"A trite or banal remark or statement, especially one expressed as if it
> reading, giving or receiving
were original or significant." (online dictionary)
Platitudes are like astrology or fortune telling - people can interpret
them as it suits them and they can seem like support for "whatever."
People can use them as a catalyst for their own thinking - but people
can use fortune cookies for that, too. Or Magic 8 balls.
I prefer clarity and specific information, observation, and advice over
things like:
********
when we find ourselves, then we are strong within, so it becomes so much
easier to
be gentle towards others.
********
Nice sounding words. How are they helpful though? What does "find
ourselves" mean? What does "strong within" mean? Is it more "gentle to
others" to pat them on the back and say soothing things or to point out
choices they're making that might be problematic?
-pam
dola dasgupta-banerji
Nice sounding words. How are they helpful though? What does "find
ourselves" mean? What does "strong within" mean?
Well, they are not just words. They are a culmination of three years of hard
inner work that I have done on myself after life pushed me to a corner that
had no walls, no doors, no windows. So the only place to go was within,
where I found murky streets, scary corners, ugly mirrors reflecting me,
storms and hurricanes. I walked alone through it all. Facing myself was the
most fearsome and difficult thing that I have done. But once I crossed over
the pain, I found love for myself, faith in me, unbound confidence in who I
am and my true potential. With that love for all those who are connected
with me became easier and flowing. It became easier to say YES and also to
say NO.
Once all this was over then practicing it all the time is the key to find
inner strength. which simply means knowing from your bones that what we are
is the way we were meant to be. No need to be apologetic or shameful for our
true calling.
Is it more "gentle to
others" to pat them on the back and say soothing things or to point out
choices they're making that might be problematic?
No, it simply means to be truthful and honest. No need to fight or get
upset. As long as the choices of others affect our lives, it matters. If it
doesn't affect us directly or indirectly, it is not problematic at all. But
can you see how important it is to know what really matters and what does
not. Discriminating consciously and in a wakeful way is a constant
practice.
Dola
On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
ourselves" mean? What does "strong within" mean?
Well, they are not just words. They are a culmination of three years of hard
inner work that I have done on myself after life pushed me to a corner that
had no walls, no doors, no windows. So the only place to go was within,
where I found murky streets, scary corners, ugly mirrors reflecting me,
storms and hurricanes. I walked alone through it all. Facing myself was the
most fearsome and difficult thing that I have done. But once I crossed over
the pain, I found love for myself, faith in me, unbound confidence in who I
am and my true potential. With that love for all those who are connected
with me became easier and flowing. It became easier to say YES and also to
say NO.
Once all this was over then practicing it all the time is the key to find
inner strength. which simply means knowing from your bones that what we are
is the way we were meant to be. No need to be apologetic or shameful for our
true calling.
Is it more "gentle to
others" to pat them on the back and say soothing things or to point out
choices they're making that might be problematic?
No, it simply means to be truthful and honest. No need to fight or get
upset. As long as the choices of others affect our lives, it matters. If it
doesn't affect us directly or indirectly, it is not problematic at all. But
can you see how important it is to know what really matters and what does
not. Discriminating consciously and in a wakeful way is a constant
practice.
Dola
On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> > I would warn to be very careful about platitudes....writing or
> > reading, giving or receiving
>
> "A trite or banal remark or statement, especially one expressed as if it
> were original or significant." (online dictionary)
>
> Platitudes are like astrology or fortune telling - people can interpret
> them as it suits them and they can seem like support for "whatever."
>
> People can use them as a catalyst for their own thinking - but people
> can use fortune cookies for that, too. Or Magic 8 balls.
>
> I prefer clarity and specific information, observation, and advice over
> things like:
>
> ********
>
> when we find ourselves, then we are strong within, so it becomes so much
> easier to
> be gentle towards others.
> ********
>
> Nice sounding words. How are they helpful though? What does "find
> ourselves" mean? What does "strong within" mean? Is it more "gentle to
> others" to pat them on the back and say soothing things or to point out
> choices they're making that might be problematic?
>
> -pam
>
>
>
dola dasgupta-banerji
Like looking in a mirror . Ouch.
Thought I was doing so well, being loving and kind and gentle. But I
*may* have a little fakeness to it because I can get really defensive
and tough. Dola, can you recommend a book (if it was a book) that
helped you find that lovely warm space.....
It is alright to be tough, but if it is just an act then it can break us
emotionally and drain us of all our life energy....Leaving us angry, upset,
unsure and guilty. Since we "think" that the people around us are making us
feel that way, we blame them. But can you see how it all began
within.....This is the practice, going to the root of all our thoughts and
feelings.
There are many books. But to experience this journey from within is the only
way to learn. It is astounding to find all the love we need and all the
securities we seek from the world is all there within each of us.
Dola
PS: Sandra, please do let me know if I have transgressed some of the norms
of this list. I will stop immediately.
On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 9:29 PM, Michele Jacobsen <
michelewith3@...> wrote:
Thought I was doing so well, being loving and kind and gentle. But I
*may* have a little fakeness to it because I can get really defensive
and tough. Dola, can you recommend a book (if it was a book) that
helped you find that lovely warm space.....
It is alright to be tough, but if it is just an act then it can break us
emotionally and drain us of all our life energy....Leaving us angry, upset,
unsure and guilty. Since we "think" that the people around us are making us
feel that way, we blame them. But can you see how it all began
within.....This is the practice, going to the root of all our thoughts and
feelings.
There are many books. But to experience this journey from within is the only
way to learn. It is astounding to find all the love we need and all the
securities we seek from the world is all there within each of us.
Dola
PS: Sandra, please do let me know if I have transgressed some of the norms
of this list. I will stop immediately.
On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 9:29 PM, Michele Jacobsen <
michelewith3@...> wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> >>>>>when we find ourselves, then we are strong within, so it becomes so
> much easier to
> >>>>>be gentle towards others.
>
> >>>>>It is only when we are weak and unsure and angry from within that
> we put up
> >>>>>an act of toughness and being strong and then we are harsh and
> judgmental
> >>>>>with others.
>
> Oh no, that was uncomfortable for me. Like looking in a mirror . Ouch.
> Thought I was doing so well, being loving and kind and gentle. But I
> *may* have a little fakeness to it because I can get really defensive
> and tough. Dola, can you recommend a book (if it was a book) that
> helped you find that lovely warm space? Anyone else? I just got Loving
> What Is by Byron Katie.
>
> Thanks to all for this great list.
>
> Michele
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>