TV issue: Consumer kids and Corporation documentaries
Cinira Longuinho
I am a member of this yahoo group for more than 1 year... I learn so much,
open my eyes to so many things, it is an inspiration... But I have to say I
do struggle with the TV issue.. I completely love the concept of parents
being facilitators so children will make their world bigger and bigger ...
let them explore and do what interest them, learn and thrive in freedom...
On the other hand, I have watched 2 documentary movies that had a great
impact on me about this TV issue.
1) Consumer Kids
Brief description: Consuming Kids throws desperately needed light on the
practices of a relentless multi-billion dollar marketing machine that now
sells kids and their parents everything from junk food and violent video
games to bogus educational products and the family car. Drawing on the
insights of health care professionals, children's advocates, and industry
insiders, the film focuses on the explosive growth of child marketing in the
wake of deregulation, showing how youth marketers have used the latest
advances in psychology, anthropology, and neuroscience to transform American
children into one of the most powerful and profitable consumer demographics
in the world. Consuming Kids pushes back against the wholesale
commercialization of childhood, raising urgent questions about the ethics of
children's marketing and its impact on the health and well-being of kids"
You can watch the whole documentary on youtube... Link for the first part
is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCT7h-jwCWA
2) The Corporation
Brief description: . The Corporation is today's dominant institution,
creating great wealth but also great harm. This 26 award-winning documentary
examines the nature, evolution, impacts and future of the modern business
corporation and the increasing role it plays in society and our everyday
lives.
For a playlist of all 23 chapters in order, please click on:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list...<http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=FA50FBC214A6CE87>
These documentaries show the corporations... something part of the modern
world and the lack of responsibility in their actions to society, their goal
is profit... A corporation that wants to sell toys will do everything
possible to sell more and more toys, doing commercials and programs with the
sole purpose of selling more and more toys... So, I think that TV ( the
problem is not the TV itself but the marketing strategy behind it )
manipulates children to buy their products and get them addicted to
that... I really believe that TV makes the world for a child smaller and
smaller... With the fact corporations are getting so powerful, I always
question myself that protecting our children may be part of the modern
life... It is sad I agree I do not really like it but it seems
inevitable...
C.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
open my eyes to so many things, it is an inspiration... But I have to say I
do struggle with the TV issue.. I completely love the concept of parents
being facilitators so children will make their world bigger and bigger ...
let them explore and do what interest them, learn and thrive in freedom...
On the other hand, I have watched 2 documentary movies that had a great
impact on me about this TV issue.
1) Consumer Kids
Brief description: Consuming Kids throws desperately needed light on the
practices of a relentless multi-billion dollar marketing machine that now
sells kids and their parents everything from junk food and violent video
games to bogus educational products and the family car. Drawing on the
insights of health care professionals, children's advocates, and industry
insiders, the film focuses on the explosive growth of child marketing in the
wake of deregulation, showing how youth marketers have used the latest
advances in psychology, anthropology, and neuroscience to transform American
children into one of the most powerful and profitable consumer demographics
in the world. Consuming Kids pushes back against the wholesale
commercialization of childhood, raising urgent questions about the ethics of
children's marketing and its impact on the health and well-being of kids"
You can watch the whole documentary on youtube... Link for the first part
is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCT7h-jwCWA
2) The Corporation
Brief description: . The Corporation is today's dominant institution,
creating great wealth but also great harm. This 26 award-winning documentary
examines the nature, evolution, impacts and future of the modern business
corporation and the increasing role it plays in society and our everyday
lives.
For a playlist of all 23 chapters in order, please click on:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list...<http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=FA50FBC214A6CE87>
These documentaries show the corporations... something part of the modern
world and the lack of responsibility in their actions to society, their goal
is profit... A corporation that wants to sell toys will do everything
possible to sell more and more toys, doing commercials and programs with the
sole purpose of selling more and more toys... So, I think that TV ( the
problem is not the TV itself but the marketing strategy behind it )
manipulates children to buy their products and get them addicted to
that... I really believe that TV makes the world for a child smaller and
smaller... With the fact corporations are getting so powerful, I always
question myself that protecting our children may be part of the modern
life... It is sad I agree I do not really like it but it seems
inevitable...
C.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Consuming Kids throws desperately needed light on the
practices of a relentless multi-billion dollar marketing machine that
now
sells kids and their parents everything from junk food and violent video
games to bogus educational products and the family car. -=-
So wait...
That was THEIR description, not yours as a viewer.
You've brought their dramatic, emotional description of their scare-
tactics documentary to this list. Any good reason? Dramatic fear
loves company?
IS there desperately-needed light, really?
Can an unschooling family not look around and see for themselves that
some things are needed more than others? That some advertising
appeals to kids, some to moms, some to dads, and discuss why (IF the
kids want to, or if it comes up naturally)?
-=- Consuming Kids pushes back against the wholesale
commercialization of childhood, raising urgent questions about the
ethics of
children's marketing and its impact on the health and well-being of
kids"-=-
Does it seem "urgent" to you, really? URGENT?
I'm guessing the makers of those documentaries used "the latest
advances in psychology, anthropology, and neuroscience" to excite
their audiences. And why? Were they donated out of the sweetness of
their hearts, or were the filmmakers making money somehow? What did
they have to sell, or to gain?
-=These documentaries show the corporations... something part of the
modern
world and the lack of responsibility in their actions to society,
their goal
is profit...-=-
?
Was that part your words? I couldn't tell from the post, exactly.
"Corporations" aren't new. And their goal was always profit. Duh.
Seriously. If people get together (whether it's two people or a
thousand) to pool their money to make a profit, whether they're
sending a Dutch trading ship out or trying to create a better
cellphone, they're probably not doing it just for fun, or it would be
a hobby club and not a corporation.
-=A corporation that wants to sell toys will do everything
possible to sell more and more toys, doing commercials and programs
with the
sole purpose of selling more and more toys... -=-
If that was a surprise to someone, then that's the fault of the
someone who was surprised, in a way. And if someone makes that claim
in such a way that it's intended to cover EVERY program ever, then it
becomes untrue.
When Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs came out in 1939, there was no
longterm intention of selling Disney Princess costumes 80 years
later. When Sesame Street started there weren't dolls or anything,
just the show. But the show was popular, and the show needed funding.
They had some sponsors (and corporate sponsors, too, even though there
couldn't be commercials on PBS--the corporations sponsored them for
tax breaks or whatever), but if they could sell books and license Big
Bird sheets and pillow cases, some profit came back to support the
program. Does that seem insidious and sneaky and horrible to you?
-=I think that TV ( the problem is not the TV itself but the marketing
strategy behind it ) manipulates children to buy their products and
get them addicted to that... -=-
"not the TV itself..." going back how far? Radio? Movies? Silent
movies? Newspapers? The ability to broadcast moving pictures
wasn't created to sell toys.
Are you addicted to buying products you see on TV? I'm certainly
not. I never was; my children aren't and never were.
-= I really believe that TV makes the world for a child smaller and
smaller... -=-
I grew up in a town called Española, in northern New Mexico. Some
places have "aggie jokes" or jokes about a particular ethnic group or
place, but in New Mexico there are "Española jokes." It's the butt of
all rudeness.
Because of TV, I saw opera, The Friendly Giant, musical theatre
excerpts on Ed Sullivan, rock and roll, documentaries about Egypt and
Wales and Japan, learned some guitar finger-picking tricks from a PBS
guitar-lessons show, saw cooking shows and sewing shows. Once a year
we saw Peter Pan; once a year we saw The Wizard of Oz. I also saw
commercials for Spaghettios and Bandaids and Jello and Nestle's Quik,
and could still sing all those songs to you. I know songs for toys
that haven't been manufactured for 40 years. "Jumpin' Jiminy, it's by
Eminee!"--they made mostly musical toys. If you had one now you
could eBay it for big bucks.
Fear makes people's worlds smaller, and scary, and dark.
Singing and thinking and seeing images from other continents and from
museums and from space and from history does NOT make the world smaller.
-=-I always
question myself that protecting our children may be part of the modern
life... It is sad I agree I do not really like it but it seems
inevitable...-=-
Protect your children from scare-tactic nonsense. Turn away from
documentaries that tell you your children are fragile automatons, in
danger of becoming TV zombies. It's bullshit.
Turn toward your children and see how they are actually thinking and
learning and growing right this very moment.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
practices of a relentless multi-billion dollar marketing machine that
now
sells kids and their parents everything from junk food and violent video
games to bogus educational products and the family car. -=-
So wait...
That was THEIR description, not yours as a viewer.
You've brought their dramatic, emotional description of their scare-
tactics documentary to this list. Any good reason? Dramatic fear
loves company?
IS there desperately-needed light, really?
Can an unschooling family not look around and see for themselves that
some things are needed more than others? That some advertising
appeals to kids, some to moms, some to dads, and discuss why (IF the
kids want to, or if it comes up naturally)?
-=- Consuming Kids pushes back against the wholesale
commercialization of childhood, raising urgent questions about the
ethics of
children's marketing and its impact on the health and well-being of
kids"-=-
Does it seem "urgent" to you, really? URGENT?
I'm guessing the makers of those documentaries used "the latest
advances in psychology, anthropology, and neuroscience" to excite
their audiences. And why? Were they donated out of the sweetness of
their hearts, or were the filmmakers making money somehow? What did
they have to sell, or to gain?
-=These documentaries show the corporations... something part of the
modern
world and the lack of responsibility in their actions to society,
their goal
is profit...-=-
?
Was that part your words? I couldn't tell from the post, exactly.
"Corporations" aren't new. And their goal was always profit. Duh.
Seriously. If people get together (whether it's two people or a
thousand) to pool their money to make a profit, whether they're
sending a Dutch trading ship out or trying to create a better
cellphone, they're probably not doing it just for fun, or it would be
a hobby club and not a corporation.
-=A corporation that wants to sell toys will do everything
possible to sell more and more toys, doing commercials and programs
with the
sole purpose of selling more and more toys... -=-
If that was a surprise to someone, then that's the fault of the
someone who was surprised, in a way. And if someone makes that claim
in such a way that it's intended to cover EVERY program ever, then it
becomes untrue.
When Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs came out in 1939, there was no
longterm intention of selling Disney Princess costumes 80 years
later. When Sesame Street started there weren't dolls or anything,
just the show. But the show was popular, and the show needed funding.
They had some sponsors (and corporate sponsors, too, even though there
couldn't be commercials on PBS--the corporations sponsored them for
tax breaks or whatever), but if they could sell books and license Big
Bird sheets and pillow cases, some profit came back to support the
program. Does that seem insidious and sneaky and horrible to you?
-=I think that TV ( the problem is not the TV itself but the marketing
strategy behind it ) manipulates children to buy their products and
get them addicted to that... -=-
"not the TV itself..." going back how far? Radio? Movies? Silent
movies? Newspapers? The ability to broadcast moving pictures
wasn't created to sell toys.
Are you addicted to buying products you see on TV? I'm certainly
not. I never was; my children aren't and never were.
-= I really believe that TV makes the world for a child smaller and
smaller... -=-
I grew up in a town called Española, in northern New Mexico. Some
places have "aggie jokes" or jokes about a particular ethnic group or
place, but in New Mexico there are "Española jokes." It's the butt of
all rudeness.
Because of TV, I saw opera, The Friendly Giant, musical theatre
excerpts on Ed Sullivan, rock and roll, documentaries about Egypt and
Wales and Japan, learned some guitar finger-picking tricks from a PBS
guitar-lessons show, saw cooking shows and sewing shows. Once a year
we saw Peter Pan; once a year we saw The Wizard of Oz. I also saw
commercials for Spaghettios and Bandaids and Jello and Nestle's Quik,
and could still sing all those songs to you. I know songs for toys
that haven't been manufactured for 40 years. "Jumpin' Jiminy, it's by
Eminee!"--they made mostly musical toys. If you had one now you
could eBay it for big bucks.
Fear makes people's worlds smaller, and scary, and dark.
Singing and thinking and seeing images from other continents and from
museums and from space and from history does NOT make the world smaller.
-=-I always
question myself that protecting our children may be part of the modern
life... It is sad I agree I do not really like it but it seems
inevitable...-=-
Protect your children from scare-tactic nonsense. Turn away from
documentaries that tell you your children are fragile automatons, in
danger of becoming TV zombies. It's bullshit.
Turn toward your children and see how they are actually thinking and
learning and growing right this very moment.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vidyut Kale
Thank you. They sound interesting.
I am also looking at a perception I had, which I hadn't essentially attached
with a new phenomenon.
I think the most reliable industry in the world is kids, since the beginning
of time. Kids make up an amazing percentage of the world's population. I
don't know if maternity homes are concept abroad, but in India, you
literally can't have any decent size of population without maternity care.
In cities, private practices abound. I have two maternity homes within 500
meters of my residence and about 16 in a two kilometer radius. 5
pediatricians, 6 schools, 3 of those mother-toddler/day-care/nursery stuff,
2 colleges and so on (uh... I'm in Mumbai - some of the highest numbers in
population density). These aren't marketed. There is enough of a market for
specialization to happen.
As for targetted marketing to kids.... well I don't know that it has grown
disproportionately (though I may discover otherwise when I see the film. I
also get quite intense targetting for life insurance, films, mobile phones,
bank accounts, credit cards, donations to charities, holiday clubs, etc.
Regular advertising for sure, but I'm talking of people making one on one
calls who actually remember my name and content of previous conversations!!!
Scary. I was under the impression that advertising as a whole is getting
excessive. We have too many products, too many companies trying to compete
with each other, too many advertising services to keep them alive competing
with each other....
Also looking at the fact that focusing on one thing makes it seem
disproportionately more. Whether that is fact cannot be said without
focusing with equal intensity and standards for the 'others'.
Anyway, seems interesting to read about. i'll watch it anyway.
Vidyut
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Cinira Longuinho <
ciniravlonguinho@...> wrote:
I am also looking at a perception I had, which I hadn't essentially attached
with a new phenomenon.
I think the most reliable industry in the world is kids, since the beginning
of time. Kids make up an amazing percentage of the world's population. I
don't know if maternity homes are concept abroad, but in India, you
literally can't have any decent size of population without maternity care.
In cities, private practices abound. I have two maternity homes within 500
meters of my residence and about 16 in a two kilometer radius. 5
pediatricians, 6 schools, 3 of those mother-toddler/day-care/nursery stuff,
2 colleges and so on (uh... I'm in Mumbai - some of the highest numbers in
population density). These aren't marketed. There is enough of a market for
specialization to happen.
As for targetted marketing to kids.... well I don't know that it has grown
disproportionately (though I may discover otherwise when I see the film. I
also get quite intense targetting for life insurance, films, mobile phones,
bank accounts, credit cards, donations to charities, holiday clubs, etc.
Regular advertising for sure, but I'm talking of people making one on one
calls who actually remember my name and content of previous conversations!!!
Scary. I was under the impression that advertising as a whole is getting
excessive. We have too many products, too many companies trying to compete
with each other, too many advertising services to keep them alive competing
with each other....
Also looking at the fact that focusing on one thing makes it seem
disproportionately more. Whether that is fact cannot be said without
focusing with equal intensity and standards for the 'others'.
Anyway, seems interesting to read about. i'll watch it anyway.
Vidyut
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Cinira Longuinho <
ciniravlonguinho@...> wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> I am a member of this yahoo group for more than 1 year... I learn so much,
> open my eyes to so many things, it is an inspiration... But I have to say I
> do struggle with the TV issue.. I completely love the concept of parents
> being facilitators so children will make their world bigger and bigger ...
> let them explore and do what interest them, learn and thrive in freedom...
>
> On the other hand, I have watched 2 documentary movies that had a great
> impact on me about this TV issue.
>
> 1) Consumer Kids
>
> Brief description: Consuming Kids throws desperately needed light on the
> practices of a relentless multi-billion dollar marketing machine that now
> sells kids and their parents everything from junk food and violent video
> games to bogus educational products and the family car. Drawing on the
> insights of health care professionals, children's advocates, and industry
> insiders, the film focuses on the explosive growth of child marketing in
> the
> wake of deregulation, showing how youth marketers have used the latest
> advances in psychology, anthropology, and neuroscience to transform
> American
> children into one of the most powerful and profitable consumer demographics
> in the world. Consuming Kids pushes back against the wholesale
> commercialization of childhood, raising urgent questions about the ethics
> of
> children's marketing and its impact on the health and well-being of kids"
>
> You can watch the whole documentary on youtube... Link for the first part
> is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCT7h-jwCWA
>
> 2) The Corporation
>
> Brief description: . The Corporation is today's dominant institution,
> creating great wealth but also great harm. This 26 award-winning
> documentary
> examines the nature, evolution, impacts and future of the modern business
> corporation and the increasing role it plays in society and our everyday
> lives.
>
> For a playlist of all 23 chapters in order, please click on:
> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list...<
> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=FA50FBC214A6CE87>
>
> These documentaries show the corporations... something part of the modern
> world and the lack of responsibility in their actions to society, their
> goal
> is profit... A corporation that wants to sell toys will do everything
> possible to sell more and more toys, doing commercials and programs with
> the
> sole purpose of selling more and more toys... So, I think that TV ( the
> problem is not the TV itself but the marketing strategy behind it )
> manipulates children to buy their products and get them addicted to
> that... I really believe that TV makes the world for a child smaller and
> smaller... With the fact corporations are getting so powerful, I always
> question myself that protecting our children may be part of the modern
> life... It is sad I agree I do not really like it but it seems
> inevitable...
>
> C.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<<I think that TV ( the
problem is not the TV itself but the marketing strategy behind it )
manipulates children to buy their products and get them addicted to
that... I really believe that TV makes the world for a child smaller and
smaller... With the fact corporations are getting so powerful, I always
question myself that protecting our children may be part of the modern
life... It is sad I agree I do not really like it but it seems
inevitable.. .>>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Maybe for kids that are not unschooled and not empowered.
I have a totaly diferent perspective of that.
My father was a great photographer in Brazil doing advertizing.
I know what goes on in the heads of the people that create the advertizing campaings.
They are NOT a bunch of peopel that know how to manipulate small children.
You would be suprprised.
I also grew up in a household with unlimited TV where we loved commercials and ads.
WE talked about it all the time. What worked, what did not, what was good , what was not.
We went to many screenings and had huge books of the best advertizing suff from the whole world.
It was super cool and some people are genious and tremenduous artist.
TO this day I call my sister and she calls me to talk about new ads on TV.
My kids are the same way specially my 7 year old and he calls me all the time to show me funny ads on ROblox that other kids make to advertize their games.
ITs amazing.
Plus they know that just because Floam looks great on the TV it is not what it looks like on T
WHy?
Because we bought it to try , because we talk about it.
Because they are empowered.
Also because I help them get everything they want they don;t go out buying everything they see.
Just this Christmas they each got a $50 dollar gift certificate to Toy'r'Us.
My 7 year old is saving his to by a Wii game the has not come out yet and has not date set for release.
MY 4 year old ( today) went shopping with me and I was prepared for her to just spend all the money but she only found 2 things she really wanted and we spent $20 and have $30 left and she is in no hurry to buy more.
Today she went shopping with dad for her birthday present and she boght two little dolls.
Got home and wrap them both. SHe opened one after we blew the candles and she is saving the other for her birthday party that will probably be in a few weeks.
Its amazing how my kids are.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
problem is not the TV itself but the marketing strategy behind it )
manipulates children to buy their products and get them addicted to
that... I really believe that TV makes the world for a child smaller and
smaller... With the fact corporations are getting so powerful, I always
question myself that protecting our children may be part of the modern
life... It is sad I agree I do not really like it but it seems
inevitable.. .>>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Maybe for kids that are not unschooled and not empowered.
I have a totaly diferent perspective of that.
My father was a great photographer in Brazil doing advertizing.
I know what goes on in the heads of the people that create the advertizing campaings.
They are NOT a bunch of peopel that know how to manipulate small children.
You would be suprprised.
I also grew up in a household with unlimited TV where we loved commercials and ads.
WE talked about it all the time. What worked, what did not, what was good , what was not.
We went to many screenings and had huge books of the best advertizing suff from the whole world.
It was super cool and some people are genious and tremenduous artist.
TO this day I call my sister and she calls me to talk about new ads on TV.
My kids are the same way specially my 7 year old and he calls me all the time to show me funny ads on ROblox that other kids make to advertize their games.
ITs amazing.
Plus they know that just because Floam looks great on the TV it is not what it looks like on T
WHy?
Because we bought it to try , because we talk about it.
Because they are empowered.
Also because I help them get everything they want they don;t go out buying everything they see.
Just this Christmas they each got a $50 dollar gift certificate to Toy'r'Us.
My 7 year old is saving his to by a Wii game the has not come out yet and has not date set for release.
MY 4 year old ( today) went shopping with me and I was prepared for her to just spend all the money but she only found 2 things she really wanted and we spent $20 and have $30 left and she is in no hurry to buy more.
Today she went shopping with dad for her birthday present and she boght two little dolls.
Got home and wrap them both. SHe opened one after we blew the candles and she is saving the other for her birthday party that will probably be in a few weeks.
Its amazing how my kids are.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RobynC
> Anyway, seems interesting to read about. i'll watch it anyway.>>>>I won't. It sounds like fear mongering.
My daughter isn't "addicted" to any products or buying.
When people stop buying stuff, as they are now in this recession, other people can lose their jobs. I make art for a living. It's either a luxury or a triviality in this economy. Only the very rich are buying art right now. My usual customers are not the very rich.
A while ago we were relatively affluent. Jayn was happy to receive dolls for her collections, and calmly make plans for her future.
Right now we are poor. She is doing without new dolls, and camly making plans for her future.
Her future includes being a doll designer and being something of a mogul.
Jayn was telling me about her plans to host huge charity events four times a year with all the proceeds from her business ventures on that day being donated.
Her television viewing is completely unrestricted. In her tv viewing she has visited the bottom of the ocean, outer space, factories all over the country, the cuisines of many countries, the ancient world and realms of fantasy. TV is not making her world at all smaller.
Nor is it diminishing her sense of personal power. She just got a job - at the age of 10. Our neighbor has hired Jayn to help her organize her closets. Organizing space is one of Jayn's inborn skills. This was all her own idea. She is saving up to buy a collector doll that she desires - and is never advertised on tv (way too esoteric).
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Cinira Longuinho
[[[[[[[[So wait...That was THEIR description, not yours as a viewer.]]]]]
True. I just copied their description, so you all are exposed to the same
thing I was when I first saw the documentaries.
My description I will state again:
[[[[[I have watched 2 documentary movies that had a great impact on me about
this TV issue]]]]
Sandra, I get from your response that their "dramatic, emotional description
of their scare-tactics documentary" can too be manipulative, and as such can
have negative consequences such as us living in world of fear. I appreciate
and resonate with your comments.
However, I missed you addressing how unfair game can be between parents and
corporations on what gets into the mind of our kids.
Brian said: [[[[[Maybe for kids that are not unschooled and not
empowered]]]]]. How soon will an empowered kid be mature enough to be immune
to those ads? Certainly your family that knows the insides of creating and
add can discuss, have fun, and therefore be less susceptible to that. This
is probably not the case for the majority of the people.
We don't necessarily think that, when you see a 30 sec commercial, there
were meetings, people with MBA's and psychologists giving inputs, tests or
different options, and the one chosen to be aired was probably the one that
made the kid blink less, meaning that it hooked him up more effectively.
We are not necessarily aware that the cheapest toys in Walt Mart are the
ones with character figures. "You get into the kids minds, you get them for
life" (quoted from the documentary). Makes sense to me!
I was explaining to friends why we don't give Disney movies to our daughter.
We said "we don't want her to imagine Snow White as necessarily the Disney
character for the rest of her life". Our friend said "what do you mean?
everyone knows how Snow White looks like", then he described Disney's Snow
White! It was so sad to see that he does not even get that Snow White can be
different from one person to another, it just depend on each one
imagination.... Well, at least Disney is now (in 2009) starting to create
princesses with dark colour...
Back to the topic: it seems there was a big debate in the 80's in the about
laws regarding safety of toys, and also advertisement to kids. This is shown
in the documentary. Well, the result is that there are laws about toys
safety, but advertisers are free to do whatever they want !
You merge that with the environment behind corporations. A CEO is paid to
make decisions about what is more profitable for the company (it is the
law!). As a consequence, you see good people making business cases on what
costs less: to deal with a lawsuit on a child that is injured from a toy,
or to let an unsafe toy to go to the market.
Finally, I would like to say I don't want to scare anyone... I do look at
this with criticism, and I see how the documentary film makes use the same
marketing tactics to be effective. However, I choose to give them the same
attention that I give to others, and that is why I brought this to the
forum.
For now, my option has been to not to expose my daughter to TV adds or
anything "Disney like". I know she will be exposed one day, and I hope she
will be by then empowered to look with the same criticism that I look today.
To me it is like drugs, you know they may sometimes be perceived to be
"nice", and our kids for sure will have contact with them one day. That
doesn't mean that I have to expose them at early stage in their lives, at
least until they are mature enough. Oh my, when will that be? ;-)
C.
True. I just copied their description, so you all are exposed to the same
thing I was when I first saw the documentaries.
My description I will state again:
[[[[[I have watched 2 documentary movies that had a great impact on me about
this TV issue]]]]
Sandra, I get from your response that their "dramatic, emotional description
of their scare-tactics documentary" can too be manipulative, and as such can
have negative consequences such as us living in world of fear. I appreciate
and resonate with your comments.
However, I missed you addressing how unfair game can be between parents and
corporations on what gets into the mind of our kids.
Brian said: [[[[[Maybe for kids that are not unschooled and not
empowered]]]]]. How soon will an empowered kid be mature enough to be immune
to those ads? Certainly your family that knows the insides of creating and
add can discuss, have fun, and therefore be less susceptible to that. This
is probably not the case for the majority of the people.
We don't necessarily think that, when you see a 30 sec commercial, there
were meetings, people with MBA's and psychologists giving inputs, tests or
different options, and the one chosen to be aired was probably the one that
made the kid blink less, meaning that it hooked him up more effectively.
We are not necessarily aware that the cheapest toys in Walt Mart are the
ones with character figures. "You get into the kids minds, you get them for
life" (quoted from the documentary). Makes sense to me!
I was explaining to friends why we don't give Disney movies to our daughter.
We said "we don't want her to imagine Snow White as necessarily the Disney
character for the rest of her life". Our friend said "what do you mean?
everyone knows how Snow White looks like", then he described Disney's Snow
White! It was so sad to see that he does not even get that Snow White can be
different from one person to another, it just depend on each one
imagination.... Well, at least Disney is now (in 2009) starting to create
princesses with dark colour...
Back to the topic: it seems there was a big debate in the 80's in the about
laws regarding safety of toys, and also advertisement to kids. This is shown
in the documentary. Well, the result is that there are laws about toys
safety, but advertisers are free to do whatever they want !
You merge that with the environment behind corporations. A CEO is paid to
make decisions about what is more profitable for the company (it is the
law!). As a consequence, you see good people making business cases on what
costs less: to deal with a lawsuit on a child that is injured from a toy,
or to let an unsafe toy to go to the market.
Finally, I would like to say I don't want to scare anyone... I do look at
this with criticism, and I see how the documentary film makes use the same
marketing tactics to be effective. However, I choose to give them the same
attention that I give to others, and that is why I brought this to the
forum.
For now, my option has been to not to expose my daughter to TV adds or
anything "Disney like". I know she will be exposed one day, and I hope she
will be by then empowered to look with the same criticism that I look today.
To me it is like drugs, you know they may sometimes be perceived to be
"nice", and our kids for sure will have contact with them one day. That
doesn't mean that I have to expose them at early stage in their lives, at
least until they are mature enough. Oh my, when will that be? ;-)
C.
On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 3:34 PM, RobynC <dezignarob@...> wrote:
>
>
> > Anyway, seems interesting to read about. i'll watch it anyway.>>>>
>
> I won't. It sounds like fear mongering.
>
> My daughter isn't "addicted" to any products or buying.
>
> When people stop buying stuff, as they are now in this recession, other
> people can lose their jobs. I make art for a living. It's either a luxury or
> a triviality in this economy. Only the very rich are buying art right now.
> My usual customers are not the very rich.
>
> A while ago we were relatively affluent. Jayn was happy to receive dolls
> for her collections, and calmly make plans for her future.
>
> Right now we are poor. She is doing without new dolls, and camly making
> plans for her future.
>
> Her future includes being a doll designer and being something of a mogul.
>
> Jayn was telling me about her plans to host huge charity events four times
> a year with all the proceeds from her business ventures on that day being
> donated.
>
> Her television viewing is completely unrestricted. In her tv viewing she
> has visited the bottom of the ocean, outer space, factories all over the
> country, the cuisines of many countries, the ancient world and realms of
> fantasy. TV is not making her world at all smaller.
>
> Nor is it diminishing her sense of personal power. She just got a job - at
> the age of 10. Our neighbor has hired Jayn to help her organize her closets.
> Organizing space is one of Jayn's inborn skills. This was all her own idea.
> She is saving up to buy a collector doll that she desires - and is never
> advertised on tv (way too esoteric).
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie V
Once again I just have to look to my own children when I read things like this. Totally untrue in regards to my own two children and the other unschooled children I'm around who have unrestricted access to t.v.
I can literally count on 1 hand the number of times my 7 (almost 8) year old has asked for something he's seen on t.v. The few times he has it had to do with a current interest already and the commercial was in a sense opening up his world to what was out there, because they were things I didn't even know about. He's had a couple experiences with receiving gifts for toys that he had seen the commercials for (not toys he asked for btw, just random gifts from friends or relatives), and he learned first hand that sometimes commercial don't truthfully show exactly how a product actually works. This has helped him become a more conscious consumer.
Both my 7 & 4 year olds have their own wallets with their own money in them. My 4 year old expressed an interest in buying a couple of Bakugan (a Cartoon Network show that he watches on the computer) 2 weeks ago, so my husband took him to the store where he picked out the ones he wanted and my husband helped him pay for them with his (my son's) own money. The money he spent that day had been in his wallet since his birthday in October and that was the first time he expressed an interest in buying something. My 7 year old has had money in his wallet since his birthday last March, and the last time he expressed an interest in using his money was when his friend had a birthday and I made him a wallet, my son wanted to put some of his own money into his friends wallet to give him for his birthday.
Currently my 7 year old wants a few new games for his Ninetnedo DS, which are on his birthday list which is March 3rd. Other than that, neither one of my boys has anything in the near future that they want to purchase.
Closing oneself off from the world doesn't make the world a safer place. I do think it makes it easier not to concern oneself with what is going on in the rest of the world. My son and I read a biography on Martin Luther King Jr. this past week, and we learned that it was because of television that so many people were opened up to the atrocities & illegalities that were going on at that time that propelled more people to protest. Last week after watching a special on the earthquake in Haiti and seeing firsthand images of what the people are going through, I took out my checkbook and wrote a donation check to send for what we could afford.
Apart from the above examples, as a family we derive lots of joy from watching shows together about a variety of different things that we would never have been exposed to otherwise.
Julie v.
http://lerendzonderschool.blogspot.com/
I can literally count on 1 hand the number of times my 7 (almost 8) year old has asked for something he's seen on t.v. The few times he has it had to do with a current interest already and the commercial was in a sense opening up his world to what was out there, because they were things I didn't even know about. He's had a couple experiences with receiving gifts for toys that he had seen the commercials for (not toys he asked for btw, just random gifts from friends or relatives), and he learned first hand that sometimes commercial don't truthfully show exactly how a product actually works. This has helped him become a more conscious consumer.
Both my 7 & 4 year olds have their own wallets with their own money in them. My 4 year old expressed an interest in buying a couple of Bakugan (a Cartoon Network show that he watches on the computer) 2 weeks ago, so my husband took him to the store where he picked out the ones he wanted and my husband helped him pay for them with his (my son's) own money. The money he spent that day had been in his wallet since his birthday in October and that was the first time he expressed an interest in buying something. My 7 year old has had money in his wallet since his birthday last March, and the last time he expressed an interest in using his money was when his friend had a birthday and I made him a wallet, my son wanted to put some of his own money into his friends wallet to give him for his birthday.
Currently my 7 year old wants a few new games for his Ninetnedo DS, which are on his birthday list which is March 3rd. Other than that, neither one of my boys has anything in the near future that they want to purchase.
Closing oneself off from the world doesn't make the world a safer place. I do think it makes it easier not to concern oneself with what is going on in the rest of the world. My son and I read a biography on Martin Luther King Jr. this past week, and we learned that it was because of television that so many people were opened up to the atrocities & illegalities that were going on at that time that propelled more people to protest. Last week after watching a special on the earthquake in Haiti and seeing firsthand images of what the people are going through, I took out my checkbook and wrote a donation check to send for what we could afford.
Apart from the above examples, as a family we derive lots of joy from watching shows together about a variety of different things that we would never have been exposed to otherwise.
Julie v.
http://lerendzonderschool.blogspot.com/
--- In [email protected], Cinira Longuinho <ciniravlonguinho@...> wrote:
>
> I am a member of this yahoo group for more than 1 year... I learn so much,
> open my eyes to so many things, it is an inspiration... But I have to say I
> do struggle with the TV issue.. I completely love the concept of parents
> being facilitators so children will make their world bigger and bigger ...
> let them explore and do what interest them, learn and thrive in freedom...
>
> On the other hand, I have watched 2 documentary movies that had a great
> impact on me about this TV issue.
>
> 1) Consumer Kids
>
> Brief description: Consuming Kids throws desperately needed light on the
> practices of a relentless multi-billion dollar marketing machine that now
> sells kids and their parents everything from junk food and violent video
> games to bogus educational products and the family car. Drawing on the
> insights of health care professionals, children's advocates, and industry
> insiders, the film focuses on the explosive growth of child marketing in the
> wake of deregulation, showing how youth marketers have used the latest
> advances in psychology, anthropology, and neuroscience to transform American
> children into one of the most powerful and profitable consumer demographics
> in the world. Consuming Kids pushes back against the wholesale
> commercialization of childhood, raising urgent questions about the ethics of
> children's marketing and its impact on the health and well-being of kids"
>
> You can watch the whole documentary on youtube... Link for the first part
> is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCT7h-jwCWA
>
> 2) The Corporation
>
> Brief description: . The Corporation is today's dominant institution,
> creating great wealth but also great harm. This 26 award-winning documentary
> examines the nature, evolution, impacts and future of the modern business
> corporation and the increasing role it plays in society and our everyday
> lives.
>
> For a playlist of all 23 chapters in order, please click on:
> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list...<http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=FA50FBC214A6CE87>
>
> These documentaries show the corporations... something part of the modern
> world and the lack of responsibility in their actions to society, their goal
> is profit... A corporation that wants to sell toys will do everything
> possible to sell more and more toys, doing commercials and programs with the
> sole purpose of selling more and more toys... So, I think that TV ( the
> problem is not the TV itself but the marketing strategy behind it )
> manipulates children to buy their products and get them addicted to
> that... I really believe that TV makes the world for a child smaller and
> smaller... With the fact corporations are getting so powerful, I always
> question myself that protecting our children may be part of the modern
> life... It is sad I agree I do not really like it but it seems
> inevitable...
>
> C.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Emily S
-= I really believe that TV makes the world for a child smaller and
smaller... -=-
I used to think so too. I was quite sure that the tv was a brain sucking device. Then as I read more about unschooling, I started to realize something. My children see things on tv that they may never see in real life and it opens up whole worlds of possiblity for them. I would love to be able to spend our days traveling around the world and seeing all the amazing things in real life. But at this time, we're pretty broke. We're using our income tax return for a trip to my mom's. We got a YMCA membership and my daughter will probably take a dance class. We go to lots of free places and will take a friend up on an offer to use her museum guest pass. But I can't hop on a plane and take my kids to Africa. But they can see elephants and lions on tv. Hopefully, some day they will be able to see the Great Wall of China or the Eiffel Tower in person. Until then, tv is a great substitute. It sure beats a book or magazine any day. And I'm not just talking about "educational" programs. We've had great conversation stemming from Barbie princess movies (which I also once swore my daughters would never watch).
Emily
smaller... -=-
I used to think so too. I was quite sure that the tv was a brain sucking device. Then as I read more about unschooling, I started to realize something. My children see things on tv that they may never see in real life and it opens up whole worlds of possiblity for them. I would love to be able to spend our days traveling around the world and seeing all the amazing things in real life. But at this time, we're pretty broke. We're using our income tax return for a trip to my mom's. We got a YMCA membership and my daughter will probably take a dance class. We go to lots of free places and will take a friend up on an offer to use her museum guest pass. But I can't hop on a plane and take my kids to Africa. But they can see elephants and lions on tv. Hopefully, some day they will be able to see the Great Wall of China or the Eiffel Tower in person. Until then, tv is a great substitute. It sure beats a book or magazine any day. And I'm not just talking about "educational" programs. We've had great conversation stemming from Barbie princess movies (which I also once swore my daughters would never watch).
Emily
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
. "You get into the kids minds, you get them for
life" (quoted from the documentary) . Makes sense to me!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
This made me laugh. Do you really think that about kids?
I think its is BS.
My kids are 4 and 7 and they are not little zombies but smart people that know what they want even at this tender age.
Want a better quote or saying?
Fear is paralizing, knowledge is power.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
life" (quoted from the documentary) . Makes sense to me!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
This made me laugh. Do you really think that about kids?
I think its is BS.
My kids are 4 and 7 and they are not little zombies but smart people that know what they want even at this tender age.
Want a better quote or saying?
Fear is paralizing, knowledge is power.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-However, I missed you addressing how unfair game can be between
parents and
corporations on what gets into the mind of our kids.-=-
Please rephrase the question. I don't understand this.
-=-Brian said: [[[[[Maybe for kids that are not unschooled and not
empowered]]]]]. How soon will an empowered kid be mature enough to be
immune
to those ads? Certainly your family that knows the insides of creating
and
add can discuss, have fun, and therefore be less susceptible to that.
This
is probably not the case for the majority of the people.
-=- How soon will an empowered kid be mature enough to be immune
to those ads? -=-
I don't understand that either.
The maturity and empowerment are in contrast to kids who are
traditionally parented and needy and who go to school and want more of
what their friends might have, or want their parents to prove their
love and attentiveness by buying them things.\
Those situations are rarer with unschooling, it seems. It's not
about first empowering a child and then deciding when he's "mature"
enough. "Immune"? As though it's an infectious disease?
Are you "immune" to other people's opinions? Immune to documentaries
intended to frighten you?
The more mindfully people use words, the clearer their thoughts and
communications will be.
-=-We don't necessarily think that, when you see a 30 sec commercial,
there
were meetings, people with MBA's and psychologists giving inputs,
tests or
different options, and the one chosen to be aired was probably the one
that
made the kid blink less, meaning that it hooked him up more
effectively.-=-
Who is "we"?
Not every single commercial is designed by psychologist with tests.
All the energy you've put toward being alarmed could have been much
better put toward being gently at peace with your child.
-=-We are not necessarily aware that the cheapest toys in Walt Mart
are the
ones with character figures. "You get into the kids minds, you get
them for
life" (quoted from the documentary). Makes sense to me!-=-
Again, "We..." Don't speak for us. Speak for your own self. If
that documentary is what makes sense to you, then maybe ask them how
to be with your children, and take their advice wholly and without
question. I'm sure they will, for a price, tell you what to do just
as you fear the corporations want to.
That fear isn't healthy for you or for your relationship with your
child.
I'm hoping unschooling will make sense to you.
http://sandradodd.com/help
There's some encouragement for new unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
parents and
corporations on what gets into the mind of our kids.-=-
Please rephrase the question. I don't understand this.
-=-Brian said: [[[[[Maybe for kids that are not unschooled and not
empowered]]]]]. How soon will an empowered kid be mature enough to be
immune
to those ads? Certainly your family that knows the insides of creating
and
add can discuss, have fun, and therefore be less susceptible to that.
This
is probably not the case for the majority of the people.
-=- How soon will an empowered kid be mature enough to be immune
to those ads? -=-
I don't understand that either.
The maturity and empowerment are in contrast to kids who are
traditionally parented and needy and who go to school and want more of
what their friends might have, or want their parents to prove their
love and attentiveness by buying them things.\
Those situations are rarer with unschooling, it seems. It's not
about first empowering a child and then deciding when he's "mature"
enough. "Immune"? As though it's an infectious disease?
Are you "immune" to other people's opinions? Immune to documentaries
intended to frighten you?
The more mindfully people use words, the clearer their thoughts and
communications will be.
-=-We don't necessarily think that, when you see a 30 sec commercial,
there
were meetings, people with MBA's and psychologists giving inputs,
tests or
different options, and the one chosen to be aired was probably the one
that
made the kid blink less, meaning that it hooked him up more
effectively.-=-
Who is "we"?
Not every single commercial is designed by psychologist with tests.
All the energy you've put toward being alarmed could have been much
better put toward being gently at peace with your child.
-=-We are not necessarily aware that the cheapest toys in Walt Mart
are the
ones with character figures. "You get into the kids minds, you get
them for
life" (quoted from the documentary). Makes sense to me!-=-
Again, "We..." Don't speak for us. Speak for your own self. If
that documentary is what makes sense to you, then maybe ask them how
to be with your children, and take their advice wholly and without
question. I'm sure they will, for a price, tell you what to do just
as you fear the corporations want to.
That fear isn't healthy for you or for your relationship with your
child.
I'm hoping unschooling will make sense to you.
http://sandradodd.com/help
There's some encouragement for new unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Drawing on the
insights of health care professionals, children's advocates, and industry
insiders, the film focuses on the explosive growth of child marketing in the
wake of deregulation, showing how youth marketers have used the latest
advances in psychology, anthropology, and neuroscience to transform American
children into one of the most powerful and profitable consumer demographics
in the world. Consuming Kids pushes back against the wholesale
commercialization of childhood, raising urgent questions about the ethics of
children's marketing and its impact on the health and well-being of kids"***
Schools are the biggest mass marketing scheme out there. Billions of dollars are spent on marketing school to children and their parents. So what if it's government sanctioned tax dollars, it's still marketed as necessary. Every time, in the US, please excuse this in other places where this isn't relevant, that a tax increase tries to go through locally, the most common reason for those taxes being needed is for the sake of the children's educational well being and therefore the future of our children's well being. That's mass marketing. That's my opinion on the matter.
While in school, children are told that they are there to learn and become great thinkers, but are then told what to think, what not to think, what way is right or wrong to think, and that other people know better when they need to eat and use the toilet. Kids in school get told 2 very different messages, in words and actions. Commercialism employs the same tactics, telling people what to think.
Who is more susceptible? Kids in school or kids out of school? My experience, and I'm going to generalize here, because not all kids fall into that non-critical thinking trap, is that kids in school give up thinking critically and look to others for answers and are willing to accept them, while I see unschooled kids look for answers within themselves and everywhere around them and question everything they see and hear.
***These documentaries show the corporations. .. something part of the modern
world and the lack of responsibility in their actions to society, their goal
is profit... A corporation that wants to sell toys will do everything
possible to sell more and more toys, doing commercials and programs with the
sole purpose of selling more and more toys... ***
While I tend to agree with this, I'll play devil's advocate for a minute here...
Corporations also give huge amounts of money to charitable organizations around the world. They also provide jobs and income to places around the world that need it. Not that I necessarily think sweat shops are great jobs, or in fact necessary, but in places that war has torn them apart, or political unrest, or other natural disasters, rebuilding is difficult. Corporations are just a larger part of the system in the world of bringing technology and other "advances" to places that don't have them. There are certainly many things that don't work well within that system. Corporations aren't evil, they are doing what they do, make money, selling things and ideas that people sometimes really DO want.
Greed is what causes evil and it happens everywhere all over the world in all cultures, in all humans. Anyway, that's my simplistic view of the world and the systems that are in it. I think South Park does a great job at explaining how I feel about people who get all upset about "big bad corporations" and then pass it on to kids.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/154822
....I don't necessarily believe in everything South Park does either... that's my disclaimer.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
insights of health care professionals, children's advocates, and industry
insiders, the film focuses on the explosive growth of child marketing in the
wake of deregulation, showing how youth marketers have used the latest
advances in psychology, anthropology, and neuroscience to transform American
children into one of the most powerful and profitable consumer demographics
in the world. Consuming Kids pushes back against the wholesale
commercialization of childhood, raising urgent questions about the ethics of
children's marketing and its impact on the health and well-being of kids"***
Schools are the biggest mass marketing scheme out there. Billions of dollars are spent on marketing school to children and their parents. So what if it's government sanctioned tax dollars, it's still marketed as necessary. Every time, in the US, please excuse this in other places where this isn't relevant, that a tax increase tries to go through locally, the most common reason for those taxes being needed is for the sake of the children's educational well being and therefore the future of our children's well being. That's mass marketing. That's my opinion on the matter.
While in school, children are told that they are there to learn and become great thinkers, but are then told what to think, what not to think, what way is right or wrong to think, and that other people know better when they need to eat and use the toilet. Kids in school get told 2 very different messages, in words and actions. Commercialism employs the same tactics, telling people what to think.
Who is more susceptible? Kids in school or kids out of school? My experience, and I'm going to generalize here, because not all kids fall into that non-critical thinking trap, is that kids in school give up thinking critically and look to others for answers and are willing to accept them, while I see unschooled kids look for answers within themselves and everywhere around them and question everything they see and hear.
***These documentaries show the corporations. .. something part of the modern
world and the lack of responsibility in their actions to society, their goal
is profit... A corporation that wants to sell toys will do everything
possible to sell more and more toys, doing commercials and programs with the
sole purpose of selling more and more toys... ***
While I tend to agree with this, I'll play devil's advocate for a minute here...
Corporations also give huge amounts of money to charitable organizations around the world. They also provide jobs and income to places around the world that need it. Not that I necessarily think sweat shops are great jobs, or in fact necessary, but in places that war has torn them apart, or political unrest, or other natural disasters, rebuilding is difficult. Corporations are just a larger part of the system in the world of bringing technology and other "advances" to places that don't have them. There are certainly many things that don't work well within that system. Corporations aren't evil, they are doing what they do, make money, selling things and ideas that people sometimes really DO want.
Greed is what causes evil and it happens everywhere all over the world in all cultures, in all humans. Anyway, that's my simplistic view of the world and the systems that are in it. I think South Park does a great job at explaining how I feel about people who get all upset about "big bad corporations" and then pass it on to kids.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/154822
....I don't necessarily believe in everything South Park does either... that's my disclaimer.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- It was so sad to see that he does not even get that Snow White can
be
different from one person to another, it just depend on each one
imagination.... Well, at least Disney is now (in 2009) starting to
create
princesses with dark colour...-=-
I've been interested in folktales and fairy tales since I was
little. Since I was nine, I specifically started to seek out other
versions and I've never lost that interest.
One thing about Snow White is that she's always described as having
black hair and white skin and red lips. I don't think they would have
called her "Snow White" otherwise. And in a lot of the versions it
starts off with her mother pricking her own finger while doing
embroidery, and a drop of the blood getting on the white cloth, in a
black embroidery hoop, or with a black window frame, or something, and
the mother saying she hopes someday to have a child with those colors--
white, and black and red.
Disney didn't make that up. Maybe various German storytellers made it
up hundreds of years ago. Maybe those are versions of a really old
story pre-Germany, pre-France.
What I do know is that it's not worth getting upset about in 2010.
Some people are much against "Disney Movies," as though they are a
monolithic set of sameness, but they're all in favor of fairy tale
books with illustrations. That's pretty hypocritical. Any artist who
has ever painted Tom Sawyer or Long John Silver or Robin Hood decided
on the clothes and the eyes and the facial expressions, the height,
the posture...
Fear can be almost a comfort. People can enjoy feeling self-righteous
and feeling that only they can save their children from the dangers of
the world. But who will save their children from the fearful emotions
of the mother?
-=-Back to the topic: it seems there was a big debate in the 80's in
the about
laws regarding safety of toys, and also advertisement to kids. This is
shown
in the documentary. Well, the result is that there are laws about toys
safety, but advertisers are free to do whatever they want !-=-
This isn't about unschooling, is it? It's about indignation. Let
childless people be indignant and huffy and angry about things that
happened 30 years ago. People with young children need to be present
and calm and sweet, now, today.
-=-Finally, I would like to say I don't want to scare anyone... I do
look at
this with criticism, and I see how the documentary film makes use the
same
marketing tactics to be effective. However, I choose to give them the
same
attention that I give to others, and that is why I brought this to the
forum.-=-
If you were giving that much attention to your child, you wouldn't
have time to watch that documentary and write all this up.
You're not scaring me except with the thought of how much energy and
biochemical angst you're wasting on it.
My children grew up in peace, were not hurt by advertisements or by
plastic toys (Kirby loved Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in a big way,
and Holly just today bought some 1980's My Little Ponies at a thrift
store). I didn't live in fear; I lived in love. My children were
loved and they are now loving. They're kind, they're considerate,
they're generous with their money when they have it, but also careful
with it, and they are grateful for financial assistance when they need
it.
Unschooling has not ruined anyone I've ever seen. Failure to try to
calm down enough to understand unschooling, I think leads to school
and schooling.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be
different from one person to another, it just depend on each one
imagination.... Well, at least Disney is now (in 2009) starting to
create
princesses with dark colour...-=-
I've been interested in folktales and fairy tales since I was
little. Since I was nine, I specifically started to seek out other
versions and I've never lost that interest.
One thing about Snow White is that she's always described as having
black hair and white skin and red lips. I don't think they would have
called her "Snow White" otherwise. And in a lot of the versions it
starts off with her mother pricking her own finger while doing
embroidery, and a drop of the blood getting on the white cloth, in a
black embroidery hoop, or with a black window frame, or something, and
the mother saying she hopes someday to have a child with those colors--
white, and black and red.
Disney didn't make that up. Maybe various German storytellers made it
up hundreds of years ago. Maybe those are versions of a really old
story pre-Germany, pre-France.
What I do know is that it's not worth getting upset about in 2010.
Some people are much against "Disney Movies," as though they are a
monolithic set of sameness, but they're all in favor of fairy tale
books with illustrations. That's pretty hypocritical. Any artist who
has ever painted Tom Sawyer or Long John Silver or Robin Hood decided
on the clothes and the eyes and the facial expressions, the height,
the posture...
Fear can be almost a comfort. People can enjoy feeling self-righteous
and feeling that only they can save their children from the dangers of
the world. But who will save their children from the fearful emotions
of the mother?
-=-Back to the topic: it seems there was a big debate in the 80's in
the about
laws regarding safety of toys, and also advertisement to kids. This is
shown
in the documentary. Well, the result is that there are laws about toys
safety, but advertisers are free to do whatever they want !-=-
This isn't about unschooling, is it? It's about indignation. Let
childless people be indignant and huffy and angry about things that
happened 30 years ago. People with young children need to be present
and calm and sweet, now, today.
-=-Finally, I would like to say I don't want to scare anyone... I do
look at
this with criticism, and I see how the documentary film makes use the
same
marketing tactics to be effective. However, I choose to give them the
same
attention that I give to others, and that is why I brought this to the
forum.-=-
If you were giving that much attention to your child, you wouldn't
have time to watch that documentary and write all this up.
You're not scaring me except with the thought of how much energy and
biochemical angst you're wasting on it.
My children grew up in peace, were not hurt by advertisements or by
plastic toys (Kirby loved Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in a big way,
and Holly just today bought some 1980's My Little Ponies at a thrift
store). I didn't live in fear; I lived in love. My children were
loved and they are now loving. They're kind, they're considerate,
they're generous with their money when they have it, but also careful
with it, and they are grateful for financial assistance when they need
it.
Unschooling has not ruined anyone I've ever seen. Failure to try to
calm down enough to understand unschooling, I think leads to school
and schooling.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
"Not every single commercial is designed by psychologist with tests.
All the energy you've put toward being alarmed could have been much
better put toward being gently at peace with your child."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
That is true. Those documentaries are the ones milleading parents and making them so fearful.
I loved the Hulu commercial about the aliens taking over the world with the TV making peoples brain into mush.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
All the energy you've put toward being alarmed could have been much
better put toward being gently at peace with your child."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
That is true. Those documentaries are the ones milleading parents and making them so fearful.
I loved the Hulu commercial about the aliens taking over the world with the TV making peoples brain into mush.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I think South Park does a great job at explaining how I feel about
people who get all upset about "big bad corporations" and then pass it
on to kids.-=-
But I bet South Park is a corporation, so... :-)
My husband works for a corporation: Honeywell.
My computer came from a corporation: Apple
That documentary about corporations? Probably created by a
corporation (maybe a small temporary one, but still...) using camera
equipment and electricity and employees all hired from or created by
one or another incorporated union or business.
Probably the more furiously (and vaguely) angry about "corporations" a
person is, the less likely he or she would be to explain in plain
English what "a corporation" is. I've been looking into creating a
non-profit corporation to maintain unschooling.info so that people
could donate money and an investment could be made to provide ongoing
funds to keep the site paid for rather than me doing it myself. That
would be a corporation. We'd need three board members, and meetings
with minutes, and a bank account. OOOOOOhhhhh..... evil corporation.
-=Corporations aren't evil, they are doing what they do, make money,
selling things and ideas that people sometimes really DO want.-=-
Or to give away something people want or need. In the case of
unschooling.info, I would like for it to be self-sustaining so that it
won't disappear again, and so I don't end up paying for it myself
every year forevermore. If it could survive all of us and be a
repository of unschooling information for years to come, that seems
like a good idea. Maybe it could even provide grants for projects or
research someday.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
people who get all upset about "big bad corporations" and then pass it
on to kids.-=-
But I bet South Park is a corporation, so... :-)
My husband works for a corporation: Honeywell.
My computer came from a corporation: Apple
That documentary about corporations? Probably created by a
corporation (maybe a small temporary one, but still...) using camera
equipment and electricity and employees all hired from or created by
one or another incorporated union or business.
Probably the more furiously (and vaguely) angry about "corporations" a
person is, the less likely he or she would be to explain in plain
English what "a corporation" is. I've been looking into creating a
non-profit corporation to maintain unschooling.info so that people
could donate money and an investment could be made to provide ongoing
funds to keep the site paid for rather than me doing it myself. That
would be a corporation. We'd need three board members, and meetings
with minutes, and a bank account. OOOOOOhhhhh..... evil corporation.
-=Corporations aren't evil, they are doing what they do, make money,
selling things and ideas that people sometimes really DO want.-=-
Or to give away something people want or need. In the case of
unschooling.info, I would like for it to be self-sustaining so that it
won't disappear again, and so I don't end up paying for it myself
every year forevermore. If it could survive all of us and be a
repository of unschooling information for years to come, that seems
like a good idea. Maybe it could even provide grants for projects or
research someday.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shira Rocklin
I've seen both those documentaries when I was doing my Bachelor of
Environmental Studies several years ago. They were very interesting,
very eye-opening, about the intents of corporations, advertising, etc.
Call me naive, but that really was the first time I encountered many of
those ideas. It was very interesting to learn about how they market
things the way they do, and why. And in some ways, it was scare tactics
and threatening. In other ways, I don't think it was. It was more
about bringing information to the front that not everyone thinks about,
or realizes. I didn't realize that many television characters are
created first as merchandise, and then they go about creating a 'show'
(or movie, etc) to advertise that character in order to make the
merchandise sell (as opposed to Sesame Street where the show was first
created and then, as Sandra said, the merchandise came later).
And I think its useful to know these things... in the same way that its
useful to know that old paint, and old toys, and old dishes (and some
new toys and dishes), might contain lead. Lead is dangerous, especially
for children. Its not a scare tactic, its a fact. Should we run around
looking for lead? No... be aware, get some lead test kits (someone gave
us dishes that turned up with lead, we were just testing randomly with
an extra test we had left over), maybe test old toys found in
grandparent's attics... but be overly worried? Probably not worth the
effort. Caution is good, I think. Laws about toys and lead, industry
standards, having choices like lovingly handmade toys by cottage
industries - those are all good things.
But the real threat from all these things is in not having parents
around, paying attention, spending time together, and helping their
children when they need it. A gun isn't so much of a threat when its
locked up, when children are educated about it, allowed to see and hold
it in safe ways (at least, thats what I imagine, I haven't one out and
researched it right this minute). Lead isn't such a threat, once we
know about it, and take some measures to limit it. The real threat is
when parents don't care, aren't there with their children experiencing
the advertising, the shows, the messages, and helping their children
navigate the hidden meanings, the propaganda, the messages about body
image, the next greatest toy, branding, psychology, to see what it
really means to them.
Its not like the information is NEW. Its in the newspapers, on the
internet, in books, the library, etc.... its just that someone put it
together into a cohesive argument to show a complete picture, which
makes it easier for someone like me to digest, but in order to make that
picture, facts are skewed, presented not quite right, and it leaves a
person scared. I get the same feelings after reading books about
conventional food systems. I can barely bring myself to buy any food at
the grocery store after reading some and knowing how they got there.
But the threat is huge, the impact of buying one apple, eating this way
for another year or years until we can afford some better alternatives,
is not so huge.
Shira
Environmental Studies several years ago. They were very interesting,
very eye-opening, about the intents of corporations, advertising, etc.
Call me naive, but that really was the first time I encountered many of
those ideas. It was very interesting to learn about how they market
things the way they do, and why. And in some ways, it was scare tactics
and threatening. In other ways, I don't think it was. It was more
about bringing information to the front that not everyone thinks about,
or realizes. I didn't realize that many television characters are
created first as merchandise, and then they go about creating a 'show'
(or movie, etc) to advertise that character in order to make the
merchandise sell (as opposed to Sesame Street where the show was first
created and then, as Sandra said, the merchandise came later).
And I think its useful to know these things... in the same way that its
useful to know that old paint, and old toys, and old dishes (and some
new toys and dishes), might contain lead. Lead is dangerous, especially
for children. Its not a scare tactic, its a fact. Should we run around
looking for lead? No... be aware, get some lead test kits (someone gave
us dishes that turned up with lead, we were just testing randomly with
an extra test we had left over), maybe test old toys found in
grandparent's attics... but be overly worried? Probably not worth the
effort. Caution is good, I think. Laws about toys and lead, industry
standards, having choices like lovingly handmade toys by cottage
industries - those are all good things.
But the real threat from all these things is in not having parents
around, paying attention, spending time together, and helping their
children when they need it. A gun isn't so much of a threat when its
locked up, when children are educated about it, allowed to see and hold
it in safe ways (at least, thats what I imagine, I haven't one out and
researched it right this minute). Lead isn't such a threat, once we
know about it, and take some measures to limit it. The real threat is
when parents don't care, aren't there with their children experiencing
the advertising, the shows, the messages, and helping their children
navigate the hidden meanings, the propaganda, the messages about body
image, the next greatest toy, branding, psychology, to see what it
really means to them.
Its not like the information is NEW. Its in the newspapers, on the
internet, in books, the library, etc.... its just that someone put it
together into a cohesive argument to show a complete picture, which
makes it easier for someone like me to digest, but in order to make that
picture, facts are skewed, presented not quite right, and it leaves a
person scared. I get the same feelings after reading books about
conventional food systems. I can barely bring myself to buy any food at
the grocery store after reading some and knowing how they got there.
But the threat is huge, the impact of buying one apple, eating this way
for another year or years until we can afford some better alternatives,
is not so huge.
Shira
Sandra Dodd
-=Its not like the information is NEW. Its in the newspapers, on the
internet, in books, the library, etc.... its just that someone put it
together into a cohesive argument to show a complete picture, which
makes it easier for someone like me to digest, but in order to make that
picture, facts are skewed, presented not quite right, and it leaves a
person scared.-=-
I'm glad you said "...to show a complete picture."
Some people, though, think it shows "THE" complete picture. And other
people don't know what the difference would be.
For helping people understand unschooling, I think these things are a
hundred times more important than anything and everything concerning
corporations, and you'll all use a computer and some electricity to
get to them, so breathe and relax if possible.
http://sandradodd.com/wonder
http://sandradodd.com/being
http://sandradodd.com/joy
http://sandradodd.com/balance
http://sandradodd.com/choice
http://sandradodd.com/t/whatif
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
internet, in books, the library, etc.... its just that someone put it
together into a cohesive argument to show a complete picture, which
makes it easier for someone like me to digest, but in order to make that
picture, facts are skewed, presented not quite right, and it leaves a
person scared.-=-
I'm glad you said "...to show a complete picture."
Some people, though, think it shows "THE" complete picture. And other
people don't know what the difference would be.
For helping people understand unschooling, I think these things are a
hundred times more important than anything and everything concerning
corporations, and you'll all use a computer and some electricity to
get to them, so breathe and relax if possible.
http://sandradodd.com/wonder
http://sandradodd.com/being
http://sandradodd.com/joy
http://sandradodd.com/balance
http://sandradodd.com/choice
http://sandradodd.com/t/whatif
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
NCMama
-=-I didn't realize that many television characters are created first as merchandise, and then they go about creating a 'show' (or movie, etc) to advertise that character in order to make the merchandise sell (as opposed to Sesame Street where the show was first created and then, as Sandra said, the merchandise came later).-=-
Both of my guys, who have had free reign of television and video games for years now, are very perceptive when it comes to that. They *know* when something was created just to sell merchandise, as opposed to having an engaging or funny story to tell. If the story's good enough, they don't really care, but if it isn't, they get annoyed. This isn't something I presented to them or ever brought up. They know because they have have the experience of seeing good shows and bad shows. They can make connections between the movies they see, and the ads they see. They didn't particularly care for the new Transformer movie, and my youngest said, "Well, it was just one long commercial for transformers. And not a good one!"
My youngest, especially, will get offended if he senses there's a lot of "educational" content added to something. When he was quite young, he stopped watching a PBS show, because "they changed it to educational! It used to be good, now they're trying to teach me something!" (I think it was Dragon Tales, but I can't remember.) I had never expressed frustration or disdain at educational content, this was his own thing, he could see and hear how the show had changed to add counting and spelling, when that hadn't been a part of the show before. He does NOT like to be manipulated at all, and I think he felt manipulated by characters who used to act naturally (well, as naturally as a cartoon dragon would act!), suddenly counting things for no good reason.
Kids are a lot smarter and aware than that documentary maker gives them credit for.
Caren
Both of my guys, who have had free reign of television and video games for years now, are very perceptive when it comes to that. They *know* when something was created just to sell merchandise, as opposed to having an engaging or funny story to tell. If the story's good enough, they don't really care, but if it isn't, they get annoyed. This isn't something I presented to them or ever brought up. They know because they have have the experience of seeing good shows and bad shows. They can make connections between the movies they see, and the ads they see. They didn't particularly care for the new Transformer movie, and my youngest said, "Well, it was just one long commercial for transformers. And not a good one!"
My youngest, especially, will get offended if he senses there's a lot of "educational" content added to something. When he was quite young, he stopped watching a PBS show, because "they changed it to educational! It used to be good, now they're trying to teach me something!" (I think it was Dragon Tales, but I can't remember.) I had never expressed frustration or disdain at educational content, this was his own thing, he could see and hear how the show had changed to add counting and spelling, when that hadn't been a part of the show before. He does NOT like to be manipulated at all, and I think he felt manipulated by characters who used to act naturally (well, as naturally as a cartoon dragon would act!), suddenly counting things for no good reason.
Kids are a lot smarter and aware than that documentary maker gives them credit for.
Caren
Cinira Longuinho
====you'll all use a computer and some electricity to get to them, so
breathe and relax if possible.====
Great comment, Sandra.
I am here laughing.
:)
C.
breathe and relax if possible.====
Great comment, Sandra.
I am here laughing.
:)
C.
On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 9:29 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=Its not like the information is NEW. Its in the newspapers, on the
>
> internet, in books, the library, etc.... its just that someone put it
> together into a cohesive argument to show a complete picture, which
> makes it easier for someone like me to digest, but in order to make that
> picture, facts are skewed, presented not quite right, and it leaves a
> person scared.-=-
>
> I'm glad you said "...to show a complete picture."
>
> Some people, though, think it shows "THE" complete picture. And other
> people don't know what the difference would be.
>
> For helping people understand unschooling, I think these things are a
> hundred times more important than anything and everything concerning
> corporations, and you'll all use a computer and some electricity to
> get to them, so breathe and relax if possible.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/wonder
> http://sandradodd.com/being
> http://sandradodd.com/joy
> http://sandradodd.com/balance
> http://sandradodd.com/choice
> http://sandradodd.com/t/whatif
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>I think there's danger is hoping that children will look at the world
> For now, my option has been to not to expose my daughter to TV adds or
> anything "Disney like". I know she will be exposed one day, and I
> hope she
> will be by then empowered to look with the same criticism that I
> look today.
with the same critical eye as their parents do.
A parent can model looking critically at the world, but wanting a
child to see the world in the same way is to cloud his own view of
life. What if a child fell deeply in love with everything Disney -
movies, toys, dress-up clothes, etc.? If the parent couldn't get past
her judgment of Disney to fully embrace what her kid loves, how would
that be good? What would it tell a child about his mom? Maybe that
sticking it to the "corporation" is more important than his happiness.
Empowerment doesn't mean that kids should think like we do. It means
they will be able to think for themselves.
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***However, I missed you addressing how unfair game can be between parents and
corporations on what gets into the mind of our kids.***
I'm not the keeper of my child's minds anymore than I'm the keeper of their vaginas, as in, one day they do what they want with each of those things, if not already doing what they want with each of those things. I don't make assumptions about what does or does not get into their minds. I offer them fun and interesting things to look at and be around and absorb in their own ways.
*** How soon will an empowered kid be mature enough to be immune
to those ads? Certainly your family that knows the insides of creating and
add can discuss, have fun, and therefore be less susceptible to that. This
is probably not the case for the majority of the people.***
See that's the difference I think... I can say with absolute certainty that I'm not looking to immunize my kids to the world. Instead, I'd like to expose them to as much of it as humanly possible, with openness and acceptance, and discuss and learn together.
***We don't necessarily think that, when you see a 30 sec commercial, there
were meetings, people with MBA's and psychologists giving inputs, tests or
different options, and the one chosen to be aired was probably the one that
made the kid blink less, meaning that it hooked him up more effectively.***
This is very conspiracy theory-ish! Yet does it work? Really? If all that effort was being put into it, then why do the commercials need repeated and need to be redone and revamped and reworked? If it really were that easy to brainwash a population, Brain, from Pinky and the Brain, would've certainly found a way to do it! Or some other person in seek of world domination...
***We are not necessarily aware that the cheapest toys in Walt Mart are the
ones with character figures. "You get into the kids minds, you get them for
life" (quoted from the documentary) . Makes sense to me!***
Hmmmm, if you mean memories created, then sure. Sometimes when I get all caught up in what I'm doing, the living life stuff, I stop and remind myself that part of my job here is creating memories for my children to live the rest of their life with. What kind of memories do I want to help create? I can guarantee that no single commercial with have more impact than what I create with my mom super powers!
***For now, my option has been to not to expose my daughter to TV adds or
anything "Disney like". I know she will be exposed one day, and I hope she
will be by then empowered to look with the same criticism that I look today.***
This is the kind of thinking that leads folks to make websites like this one:
http://www.cesnur.org/testi/pokemon.htm
I can't even begin to tell you how many parents hate and dismiss Pokemon. Yet, after all these years, my own daughter, the lover of all things Pokemon, still plays it and has been into Pokemon for about 12 yrs. All those people who fear Pokemon, are using the same fear and judgement that you have used on Disney. Why? Is it really evil and terrible, so terrible that children must be safe guarded against it?
Are children not bright enough to make their own decisions on whether or not they like something? I can't even imagine what my daughter's world would be like if I'd banned Pokemon! What if I'd banned Harry Potter? We knew families that did. Why ban things? Why not live peacefully in the world and acknowledge the world and all it has to offer? Why let something become so big and powerful, that it's bigger and more powerful than your child?
And just for the thought... your option is one of many that you are choosing. What I've found to be true, is what makes unschooling special, is to be looking for and choosing the option that is most happy and peaceful making. If by eliminating something, it causes great peace and happiness, then sure do that, but if it's not the most peaceful and happy thing, then find another option.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
corporations on what gets into the mind of our kids.***
I'm not the keeper of my child's minds anymore than I'm the keeper of their vaginas, as in, one day they do what they want with each of those things, if not already doing what they want with each of those things. I don't make assumptions about what does or does not get into their minds. I offer them fun and interesting things to look at and be around and absorb in their own ways.
*** How soon will an empowered kid be mature enough to be immune
to those ads? Certainly your family that knows the insides of creating and
add can discuss, have fun, and therefore be less susceptible to that. This
is probably not the case for the majority of the people.***
See that's the difference I think... I can say with absolute certainty that I'm not looking to immunize my kids to the world. Instead, I'd like to expose them to as much of it as humanly possible, with openness and acceptance, and discuss and learn together.
***We don't necessarily think that, when you see a 30 sec commercial, there
were meetings, people with MBA's and psychologists giving inputs, tests or
different options, and the one chosen to be aired was probably the one that
made the kid blink less, meaning that it hooked him up more effectively.***
This is very conspiracy theory-ish! Yet does it work? Really? If all that effort was being put into it, then why do the commercials need repeated and need to be redone and revamped and reworked? If it really were that easy to brainwash a population, Brain, from Pinky and the Brain, would've certainly found a way to do it! Or some other person in seek of world domination...
***We are not necessarily aware that the cheapest toys in Walt Mart are the
ones with character figures. "You get into the kids minds, you get them for
life" (quoted from the documentary) . Makes sense to me!***
Hmmmm, if you mean memories created, then sure. Sometimes when I get all caught up in what I'm doing, the living life stuff, I stop and remind myself that part of my job here is creating memories for my children to live the rest of their life with. What kind of memories do I want to help create? I can guarantee that no single commercial with have more impact than what I create with my mom super powers!
***For now, my option has been to not to expose my daughter to TV adds or
anything "Disney like". I know she will be exposed one day, and I hope she
will be by then empowered to look with the same criticism that I look today.***
This is the kind of thinking that leads folks to make websites like this one:
http://www.cesnur.org/testi/pokemon.htm
I can't even begin to tell you how many parents hate and dismiss Pokemon. Yet, after all these years, my own daughter, the lover of all things Pokemon, still plays it and has been into Pokemon for about 12 yrs. All those people who fear Pokemon, are using the same fear and judgement that you have used on Disney. Why? Is it really evil and terrible, so terrible that children must be safe guarded against it?
Are children not bright enough to make their own decisions on whether or not they like something? I can't even imagine what my daughter's world would be like if I'd banned Pokemon! What if I'd banned Harry Potter? We knew families that did. Why ban things? Why not live peacefully in the world and acknowledge the world and all it has to offer? Why let something become so big and powerful, that it's bigger and more powerful than your child?
And just for the thought... your option is one of many that you are choosing. What I've found to be true, is what makes unschooling special, is to be looking for and choosing the option that is most happy and peaceful making. If by eliminating something, it causes great peace and happiness, then sure do that, but if it's not the most peaceful and happy thing, then find another option.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
*************
I can't even begin to tell you how many parents hate and dismiss Pokemon. Yet, after all these years, my own daughter, the lover of all things Pokemon, still plays it and has been into Pokemon for about 12 yrs. All those people who fear Pokemon, are using the same fear and judgement that you have used on Disney. Why? Is it really evil and terrible, so terrible that children must be safe guarded against it?
**************
and that's jusst jenny's daughter. my son's experience refutes that fear based thought process in a totally different way. he was totally captivated at age 6, 7 by the things he saw advertised, and the things other kids had - bionicles, pokemon, etc. he'd buy them, play with them, want more. etc. and then he was done.
and at about age 9, he felt truly done with most "kid" oriented toys and moved on to other stuff - stuff not advertised - interesting board games, books, crafts and projects, activities. his room is devoid of toys now and he doen't miss them at all - he gave them all away! "they" certainly didn't "get him for life". in fact now he has a much better sense of which things he sees advertised are likely to be actually pretty cool and which things will break quickly, or not be as fun or cool as they are made to seem in the ads
my daughter watched disney and other commercial tv from very very young and NEVER wanted all the product lines. she was into barbie for about 2 months - and not even THAT into it. she loved to dress up, paint her whole body, and socialize with everyone - she was all about relationships and didn't even care if other kids grabbed toys from her as long as they'd interact. "they" didn't "get her for life" either - or at all, really.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I can't even begin to tell you how many parents hate and dismiss Pokemon. Yet, after all these years, my own daughter, the lover of all things Pokemon, still plays it and has been into Pokemon for about 12 yrs. All those people who fear Pokemon, are using the same fear and judgement that you have used on Disney. Why? Is it really evil and terrible, so terrible that children must be safe guarded against it?
**************
and that's jusst jenny's daughter. my son's experience refutes that fear based thought process in a totally different way. he was totally captivated at age 6, 7 by the things he saw advertised, and the things other kids had - bionicles, pokemon, etc. he'd buy them, play with them, want more. etc. and then he was done.
and at about age 9, he felt truly done with most "kid" oriented toys and moved on to other stuff - stuff not advertised - interesting board games, books, crafts and projects, activities. his room is devoid of toys now and he doen't miss them at all - he gave them all away! "they" certainly didn't "get him for life". in fact now he has a much better sense of which things he sees advertised are likely to be actually pretty cool and which things will break quickly, or not be as fun or cool as they are made to seem in the ads
my daughter watched disney and other commercial tv from very very young and NEVER wanted all the product lines. she was into barbie for about 2 months - and not even THAT into it. she loved to dress up, paint her whole body, and socialize with everyone - she was all about relationships and didn't even care if other kids grabbed toys from her as long as they'd interact. "they" didn't "get her for life" either - or at all, really.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
meadowgirl11
So, I think that TV ( the
problem is not the TV itself but the marketing strategy behind it )
manipulates children to buy their products and get them addicted to
that..<<
I just want to say that my son, who watches quite a bit of television has never, I mean not ONCE, asked me to buy him something he has seen on TV. If he did, that would be fine too, but the fact is, he isn't interested in the junk of the day they show on TV. He has very specific wants and needs like lego and video games, but other than that, he asks for very little. We have talked about marketing, but he just rolls his eyes and tells me he knows all that. Our kids are growing up absolutely surrounded my marketing, it would be amazing if they didn't become smart consumers. He usually doesn't even watch TV, he finds the things he wants to watch streaming online so he can watch when he wants, how he wants.
If you are interested in documentaries, how about one this one? http://www.usnowfilm.com/
It takes a positive look at the ways information and technology are transforming our world.
problem is not the TV itself but the marketing strategy behind it )
manipulates children to buy their products and get them addicted to
that..<<
I just want to say that my son, who watches quite a bit of television has never, I mean not ONCE, asked me to buy him something he has seen on TV. If he did, that would be fine too, but the fact is, he isn't interested in the junk of the day they show on TV. He has very specific wants and needs like lego and video games, but other than that, he asks for very little. We have talked about marketing, but he just rolls his eyes and tells me he knows all that. Our kids are growing up absolutely surrounded my marketing, it would be amazing if they didn't become smart consumers. He usually doesn't even watch TV, he finds the things he wants to watch streaming online so he can watch when he wants, how he wants.
If you are interested in documentaries, how about one this one? http://www.usnowfilm.com/
It takes a positive look at the ways information and technology are transforming our world.
Joanna
> We don't necessarily think that, when you see a 30 sec commercial, thereThat's why my kids and I laugh (and have for years now--kids 11 and 14) at what are sometimes thoroughly transparent attempts to make toys look so enticing and fun! And when they come to me wanting me to see a commercial, we look critically at the toy and decide, sometimes with a little googling, whether it will be a toy worth the money and trouble to buy.
> were meetings, people with MBA's and psychologists giving inputs, tests or
> different options, and the one chosen to be aired was probably the one that
> made the kid blink less, meaning that it hooked him up more effectively.
>
And they have had experience with buying some of the toys that looked so fun in the ad but end up being cheap and breakable, causing disappointment. I could have said no, to protect them from from the marketing, but the real life experience actually meant something to them.
Come on--really--your children can't really be so much more stupid than mine, or anyone else's on this list! lol
And my kids have also really enjoyed toys that have obvious marketing AND been aware of the marketing at the same time. We've talked about how toys like My Little Pony and Pokemon are made to be so collectible, but they have also met the desire for my daughter to collect, and we've happily ebayed to find particular models, etc. And I've shared in her enjoyment and attraction. Especially when it comes to the ponies--I'm still a horsey girl at heart!
They can't learn discrimination unless they are allowed to discriminate.
Joanna
Vidyut Kale
"I didn't realize that many television characters are created first as
merchandise, and then they go about creating a 'show' (or movie, etc) to
advertise that character in order to make the merchandise sell"
What!!!! I don't believe it either. How inefficient and cost-ineffective if
anyone actually does it!!! I mean, look at the investment and risk. You
create a character for a merchandise, create a show, and if that show flops
badly.....? Where is your advertising money?
A niece once advised me not to use airtel (a phone network), because she
thinks their show 'airtel crazy kiya re" sucks (it doesn't actually, but it
was a show first and got the sponsorship later anyway)
merchandise, and then they go about creating a 'show' (or movie, etc) to
advertise that character in order to make the merchandise sell"
What!!!! I don't believe it either. How inefficient and cost-ineffective if
anyone actually does it!!! I mean, look at the investment and risk. You
create a character for a merchandise, create a show, and if that show flops
badly.....? Where is your advertising money?
A niece once advised me not to use airtel (a phone network), because she
thinks their show 'airtel crazy kiya re" sucks (it doesn't actually, but it
was a show first and got the sponsorship later anyway)
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 8:31 AM, NCMama <dharmamama1@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-I didn't realize that many television characters are created first as
> merchandise, and then they go about creating a 'show' (or movie, etc) to
> advertise that character in order to make the merchandise sell (as opposed
> to Sesame Street where the show was first created and then, as Sandra said,
> the merchandise came later).-=-
>
> Both of my guys, who have had free reign of television and video games for
> years now, are very perceptive when it comes to that. They *know* when
> something was created just to sell merchandise, as opposed to having an
> engaging or funny story to tell. If the story's good enough, they don't
> really care, but if it isn't, they get annoyed. This isn't something I
> presented to them or ever brought up. They know because they have have the
> experience of seeing good shows and bad shows. They can make connections
> between the movies they see, and the ads they see. They didn't particularly
> care for the new Transformer movie, and my youngest said, "Well, it was just
> one long commercial for transformers. And not a good one!"
>
> My youngest, especially, will get offended if he senses there's a lot of
> "educational" content added to something. When he was quite young, he
> stopped watching a PBS show, because "they changed it to educational! It
> used to be good, now they're trying to teach me something!" (I think it was
> Dragon Tales, but I can't remember.) I had never expressed frustration or
> disdain at educational content, this was his own thing, he could see and
> hear how the show had changed to add counting and spelling, when that hadn't
> been a part of the show before. He does NOT like to be manipulated at all,
> and I think he felt manipulated by characters who used to act naturally
> (well, as naturally as a cartoon dragon would act!), suddenly counting
> things for no good reason.
>
> Kids are a lot smarter and aware than that documentary maker gives them
> credit for.
>
> Caren
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cinira Longuinho
===One thing about Snow White is that she's always described as having
black hair and white skin and red lips. I don't think they would have
called her "Snow White" otherwise.(...) Disney didn't make that up. Maybe
various German storytellers made it up hundreds of years ago.====
I am sorry I did not clarify my friend's description... he said Snow White
is the one with yellow and blue dress.
I do love fairy tales as well... Sometimes I read, sometimes I just tell the
fairy tale to my DD... My mom used to tell me all types of fairy tales...I
love those memories. My favourite one was the little mermaid.. and the end
was that she became a bubble... again different from Disney.
I think the topic is unschooling ... but I will tell you I was born in
Brazil and when I used to go to school in Brazil tourism agencies used to
go to my school ( every 2 or 3 months?) to show a video about Disney and
sell the package to visit Orlando and Disney... I had to watch a 30 min
video and then listen for another 30 min about all that stuff about
Disney... after going upstairs to the top of the building because that was
where the VCR was ..It was so hot and so annoying. I really hate it.
=== But who will save their children from the fearful emotions of the
mother?===
You are giving me the label of being fearful. I believe I am a mother
concerned about unlimited tv. I am researching, posting my concerns, trying
to understand this option better and addressing it. The same way I believe
unschoolers were concerned with sending their kids to school, they did
research, tried to understand other options to not send their kids to school
and now they are doing unschooling.
If you think it is fair to say who will save their children from the fearful
emotions of the mother?, it will also be fair to say who will save their
children from the unschooling lifestyle taken by the parents?
I do not think it is fair these judgmental questions.... but that was the
logic proposed before.
===If you were giving that much attention to your child, you wouldn't
have time to watch that documentary and write all this up. ===
I have been reading this forum for at least 1 year. Today I did post but in
general I do not post at all... I am here to keep myself ALWAYS LEARNING
about unschooling because I genuinely like what I read here but I have the
concern about the TV... and those 2 documentaries resonate on me.
Corporation I saw before I had my dd and the consumer kids I saw last
year. But now you are saying that the fact that I am writing here means I am
not giving that much attention to my child! I am writing my concerns here
to try to understand the uschooling concept and discover what I do not
get... with the goal to improve my parenting skills... to try to provide
all that to my kid .... based on your comment I will have to say that maybe
nobody should write here or on blogs anymore because ppl will be writing
here instead of giving attention to their children. This is nonsense.
The irony in all this was that my kid was sick today and she did watch lots
of dvds today. I was beside her the whole time... She was the whole morning
on my lap nursing/sleeping while I was posting here.
+++Finally, I would like to say I don't want to scare anyone.+++
==You're not scaring me except with the thought of how much energy and
biochemical angst you're wasting on it.===
I was trying to be apologetic about giving the brief description for the 2
documentaries but I was not clear... your previous comments about it
resonate on me. I am sure you are not scared!
My family lives in love and in peace ( I read/listened the whole link about
peaceful parenting provided here... great stuff!) . We are happy. My husband
plays piano and guitar and my DD loves to dance, sing, play and do all types
of stuff while we are enjoying my husband playing or while we are listening
Pete Seeger, Rafi, Bossa Nova, and more .. She also loves tea party... it is
so much fun!
We do watch DVDs but we do not have cable TV. When my kid asks for it, I
offer another activity, if she does not change her mind, then she watches
DVD. Her favourite DVD is The sound of Music... we even went to the musical
last December ... She loved it! After a while of DVD I offer another
activity... in general she is ready to leave the tv and do something else.
My husband and I do not watch tv and we do not invite her to watch with us
because we just do not watch tv. And in general she prefers me to read a
book that she picked at the library than watching tv.
C.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
black hair and white skin and red lips. I don't think they would have
called her "Snow White" otherwise.(...) Disney didn't make that up. Maybe
various German storytellers made it up hundreds of years ago.====
I am sorry I did not clarify my friend's description... he said Snow White
is the one with yellow and blue dress.
I do love fairy tales as well... Sometimes I read, sometimes I just tell the
fairy tale to my DD... My mom used to tell me all types of fairy tales...I
love those memories. My favourite one was the little mermaid.. and the end
was that she became a bubble... again different from Disney.
I think the topic is unschooling ... but I will tell you I was born in
Brazil and when I used to go to school in Brazil tourism agencies used to
go to my school ( every 2 or 3 months?) to show a video about Disney and
sell the package to visit Orlando and Disney... I had to watch a 30 min
video and then listen for another 30 min about all that stuff about
Disney... after going upstairs to the top of the building because that was
where the VCR was ..It was so hot and so annoying. I really hate it.
=== But who will save their children from the fearful emotions of the
mother?===
You are giving me the label of being fearful. I believe I am a mother
concerned about unlimited tv. I am researching, posting my concerns, trying
to understand this option better and addressing it. The same way I believe
unschoolers were concerned with sending their kids to school, they did
research, tried to understand other options to not send their kids to school
and now they are doing unschooling.
If you think it is fair to say who will save their children from the fearful
emotions of the mother?, it will also be fair to say who will save their
children from the unschooling lifestyle taken by the parents?
I do not think it is fair these judgmental questions.... but that was the
logic proposed before.
===If you were giving that much attention to your child, you wouldn't
have time to watch that documentary and write all this up. ===
I have been reading this forum for at least 1 year. Today I did post but in
general I do not post at all... I am here to keep myself ALWAYS LEARNING
about unschooling because I genuinely like what I read here but I have the
concern about the TV... and those 2 documentaries resonate on me.
Corporation I saw before I had my dd and the consumer kids I saw last
year. But now you are saying that the fact that I am writing here means I am
not giving that much attention to my child! I am writing my concerns here
to try to understand the uschooling concept and discover what I do not
get... with the goal to improve my parenting skills... to try to provide
all that to my kid .... based on your comment I will have to say that maybe
nobody should write here or on blogs anymore because ppl will be writing
here instead of giving attention to their children. This is nonsense.
The irony in all this was that my kid was sick today and she did watch lots
of dvds today. I was beside her the whole time... She was the whole morning
on my lap nursing/sleeping while I was posting here.
+++Finally, I would like to say I don't want to scare anyone.+++
==You're not scaring me except with the thought of how much energy and
biochemical angst you're wasting on it.===
I was trying to be apologetic about giving the brief description for the 2
documentaries but I was not clear... your previous comments about it
resonate on me. I am sure you are not scared!
My family lives in love and in peace ( I read/listened the whole link about
peaceful parenting provided here... great stuff!) . We are happy. My husband
plays piano and guitar and my DD loves to dance, sing, play and do all types
of stuff while we are enjoying my husband playing or while we are listening
Pete Seeger, Rafi, Bossa Nova, and more .. She also loves tea party... it is
so much fun!
We do watch DVDs but we do not have cable TV. When my kid asks for it, I
offer another activity, if she does not change her mind, then she watches
DVD. Her favourite DVD is The sound of Music... we even went to the musical
last December ... She loved it! After a while of DVD I offer another
activity... in general she is ready to leave the tv and do something else.
My husband and I do not watch tv and we do not invite her to watch with us
because we just do not watch tv. And in general she prefers me to read a
book that she picked at the library than watching tv.
C.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 24, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Cinira Longuinho wrote:
something. What's wrong with that? It's been going on since there was
things to buy and sell.
Advertising can't persuade people to continue to buy something they
don't like.
I think what ultimately these people are afraid of is that kids are
getting ideas separate from their parents. And then kids are thinking
about those ideas and making decisions on their own that aren't in
their parents' control. And then the parents are angry because they
don't know how to get those foreign thoughts out of their kids' heads
so they blame advertisers.
I think those parents should spend more time with their kids. They
should have conversations. They should not fear their children having
thoughts. They should not fear their children conducting experiments
(by buying something) to test the theory that what was said in the
advertisement is true or not.
It was rare when my daughter wanted something she saw on TV. Her
tastes tended toward more unadvertised stuff: Beanies and Pokemon and
robots. But occasionally she saw some food and we'd buy it. Then
she'd try it to see if she liked it. If she did, I'd buy it again. If
she didn't, I didn't.
You've done exactly what the fear mongers have said happens to kids
with advertisements. You've accepted the advertisement as truth and
didn't take the next step to think it through. It only took a couple
of times of buying different things that didn't turn out like the
commercial for my daughter to realize advertisers put buying their
product ahead of being totally clear and truthful. If anything
commercials helped her think more critically.
I think the big difference between persuading people they might like
a product and persuading people to grasp an idea is fear. Fear makes
people stop questioning. Who wants to question the stability of a
floating piece of rotten wood when in the middle of the ocean? It
takes way way more advertising to make people let go of fears than it
does to instill the fear in them. Rotten wood can be comforting when
you're afraid.
Their arguments do make logical sense. It seems like the world should
work like that with kids being innocent and easily deceived. It also
makes *way* more sense that the Earth is stationary and sun goes
around the Earth. You can't feel the Earth moving and can see the sun
moving every single day. And yet it isn't true.
So where's the ocean they've sold you the rotten wood to save you
from? You need to let go of that rotten wood, stretch your legs down
to the solid ground beneath you so you can ask the questions you need
to. The questions you need to ask are: What real kids do you know
that are like that? Are they unschooled kids? Do their parents spend
time with them, having conversations, helping the kids explore their
own questions? If advertisements made kids into consuming zombies,
then unschooled kids who have no limits on their TV viewing should be
affected most of all. Does that happen?
Even better is to avoid such things! Once those fears get in, they're
hard to get out!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> However, I missed you addressing how unfair game can be betweenThe purpose of advertising is to persuade people they want to try
> parents and
> corporations on what gets into the mind of our kids.
something. What's wrong with that? It's been going on since there was
things to buy and sell.
Advertising can't persuade people to continue to buy something they
don't like.
I think what ultimately these people are afraid of is that kids are
getting ideas separate from their parents. And then kids are thinking
about those ideas and making decisions on their own that aren't in
their parents' control. And then the parents are angry because they
don't know how to get those foreign thoughts out of their kids' heads
so they blame advertisers.
I think those parents should spend more time with their kids. They
should have conversations. They should not fear their children having
thoughts. They should not fear their children conducting experiments
(by buying something) to test the theory that what was said in the
advertisement is true or not.
It was rare when my daughter wanted something she saw on TV. Her
tastes tended toward more unadvertised stuff: Beanies and Pokemon and
robots. But occasionally she saw some food and we'd buy it. Then
she'd try it to see if she liked it. If she did, I'd buy it again. If
she didn't, I didn't.
You've done exactly what the fear mongers have said happens to kids
with advertisements. You've accepted the advertisement as truth and
didn't take the next step to think it through. It only took a couple
of times of buying different things that didn't turn out like the
commercial for my daughter to realize advertisers put buying their
product ahead of being totally clear and truthful. If anything
commercials helped her think more critically.
I think the big difference between persuading people they might like
a product and persuading people to grasp an idea is fear. Fear makes
people stop questioning. Who wants to question the stability of a
floating piece of rotten wood when in the middle of the ocean? It
takes way way more advertising to make people let go of fears than it
does to instill the fear in them. Rotten wood can be comforting when
you're afraid.
Their arguments do make logical sense. It seems like the world should
work like that with kids being innocent and easily deceived. It also
makes *way* more sense that the Earth is stationary and sun goes
around the Earth. You can't feel the Earth moving and can see the sun
moving every single day. And yet it isn't true.
So where's the ocean they've sold you the rotten wood to save you
from? You need to let go of that rotten wood, stretch your legs down
to the solid ground beneath you so you can ask the questions you need
to. The questions you need to ask are: What real kids do you know
that are like that? Are they unschooled kids? Do their parents spend
time with them, having conversations, helping the kids explore their
own questions? If advertisements made kids into consuming zombies,
then unschooled kids who have no limits on their TV viewing should be
affected most of all. Does that happen?
Even better is to avoid such things! Once those fears get in, they're
hard to get out!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mandy Ray-Jones
I have my own issues with Disney. The theme parks wear me out and I don't
like that they financially support Planned Parenthood. But I refuse to let
my views of this "evil corporation" ruin things for my son. For almost two
years now he has been what others might call unhealthily obsessed with
"WALL-E". I didn't even like the movie personally but I won't let my son
know that. I have learned to embrace WALL-E, the character, and all of the
other robots the same way that I hope my kids will embrace my loves like 80s
sitcoms and the band the B-52s. Because my son loves WALL-E, I have found
that I have started to love him. It's been fun to see if we can collect all
of the WALL-E merchandise (non of which he saw on television but has instead
seen online because he used his love of WALL-E as motivation to learn to
spell and google). For Christmas, it was so much fun to surprise him with a
few WALL-E things I'd found that he didn't know about, one item he is taking
to homeschool show and tell with his friends today. I'd watched his love
turn him into a game show host, a film maker, a blogger, a writer, a
photographer, and now he's starting to show interest in learning how to
build a WALL-E and we've even joined a WALL-E builders group online. He is
having a blast. He is only five. I am so thankful for WALL-E, despite my
personal distaste for Disney. Because it ain't all about me.
In addition, my daughter who has just turned four introduced me to a show on
Nickeoldeon called "iCarly". I fell in love with it. Now my kids are
making their own at home webcasts. We even had an "iCarly" birthday party
for my daughter. This is one of the first things that my daughter and I
have been able to enjoy together. Furthermore, he brother has started to
love the show as well and it is something they like to watch together. For
me, television has brought my family closer together.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
like that they financially support Planned Parenthood. But I refuse to let
my views of this "evil corporation" ruin things for my son. For almost two
years now he has been what others might call unhealthily obsessed with
"WALL-E". I didn't even like the movie personally but I won't let my son
know that. I have learned to embrace WALL-E, the character, and all of the
other robots the same way that I hope my kids will embrace my loves like 80s
sitcoms and the band the B-52s. Because my son loves WALL-E, I have found
that I have started to love him. It's been fun to see if we can collect all
of the WALL-E merchandise (non of which he saw on television but has instead
seen online because he used his love of WALL-E as motivation to learn to
spell and google). For Christmas, it was so much fun to surprise him with a
few WALL-E things I'd found that he didn't know about, one item he is taking
to homeschool show and tell with his friends today. I'd watched his love
turn him into a game show host, a film maker, a blogger, a writer, a
photographer, and now he's starting to show interest in learning how to
build a WALL-E and we've even joined a WALL-E builders group online. He is
having a blast. He is only five. I am so thankful for WALL-E, despite my
personal distaste for Disney. Because it ain't all about me.
In addition, my daughter who has just turned four introduced me to a show on
Nickeoldeon called "iCarly". I fell in love with it. Now my kids are
making their own at home webcasts. We even had an "iCarly" birthday party
for my daughter. This is one of the first things that my daughter and I
have been able to enjoy together. Furthermore, he brother has started to
love the show as well and it is something they like to watch together. For
me, television has brought my family closer together.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 24, 2010, at 8:51 PM, Shira Rocklin wrote:
talking about that recently that there hadn't been a huge phenomenon
like Pokemon in a while. Pokemon succeeded because the original
designer loved collecting bugs as a child. And he managed to build a
good game around the essence that thrilled him: the coolness of
capturing something you're looking for, the coolness of hunting down
and actually finding something that's rare and unusual.
A product -- or book or movie or game -- that begins with a thing and
tries to cobble a heart into it is going to fail far more than
something that begins with a heart and grows outward. Hearts can't be
created on demand of a manufacturers schedule. Manufacturers can
create products on demand and toss them into the world to see if
something sticks. It's really all they have and better than sitting
around waiting. Even products that fail will make some money. Not
because manufacturers are evil but because people like to try new
things out if they look intriguing. But if the product has no
substance, doesn't give back what it suggests it can provide, it's
not going to continue to sell. The people who bought it won't buy
more and they won't tell other people about it.
So I think questioning things, looking for patterns, looking at the
big picture, looking at what really happens, those are even more
useful than knowledge handed to someone.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I didn't realize that many television characters areAnd I think that fails more than it succeeds. Kathryn and I were
> created first as merchandise, and then they go about creating a 'show'
> (or movie, etc) to advertise that character in order to make the
> merchandise sell ... And I think its useful to know these things
talking about that recently that there hadn't been a huge phenomenon
like Pokemon in a while. Pokemon succeeded because the original
designer loved collecting bugs as a child. And he managed to build a
good game around the essence that thrilled him: the coolness of
capturing something you're looking for, the coolness of hunting down
and actually finding something that's rare and unusual.
A product -- or book or movie or game -- that begins with a thing and
tries to cobble a heart into it is going to fail far more than
something that begins with a heart and grows outward. Hearts can't be
created on demand of a manufacturers schedule. Manufacturers can
create products on demand and toss them into the world to see if
something sticks. It's really all they have and better than sitting
around waiting. Even products that fail will make some money. Not
because manufacturers are evil but because people like to try new
things out if they look intriguing. But if the product has no
substance, doesn't give back what it suggests it can provide, it's
not going to continue to sell. The people who bought it won't buy
more and they won't tell other people about it.
So I think questioning things, looking for patterns, looking at the
big picture, looking at what really happens, those are even more
useful than knowledge handed to someone.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 24, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Cinira Longuinho wrote:
objectively. Theories should describe real life. Real life shouldn't
be filtered until it matches a theory.
Real kids -- even schooled kids ;-) -- aren't as susceptible as the
fear mongers say they are. It might sound like it make sense. It
might even make someone see the world through the theory. But if you
take off the fear glasses and begin fresh, the real world works
differently.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I do look atI think you're turning the thoughts over, but you're not seeing
> this with criticism
objectively. Theories should describe real life. Real life shouldn't
be filtered until it matches a theory.
Real kids -- even schooled kids ;-) -- aren't as susceptible as the
fear mongers say they are. It might sound like it make sense. It
might even make someone see the world through the theory. But if you
take off the fear glasses and begin fresh, the real world works
differently.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Linnaea loved princesses when she was littler. She wanted to grow up to be one. One day, when we were in York, Princess Ann was on a royal visit and David and Linnaea and my dad got to see her while Simon and I fed pigeons. The mayor was out in her robes and there were the councillors in attendance as well. And Princess Ann came through in a suit, I think, and Linnaea concluded that she didn't want to be like a real princess, more like a Disney princess.
She was little and her goals were different. Now she likes being herself. She likes watching ICarly and Phineas and Ferb and Chowder and Glee and QI and Mock the Week and Spongebob and some Japanese films and, and, and... She doesn't aspire to be a princess, although Disney princesses aren't bad role models. They screw up and apologize, they are kind and generous, they wear really cool clothes, at least cool to a little girl who loves pink.
Both Linnaea and Simon have shown themselves, over and over again, to be more powerful than television and it's influence. They are very critical of claims that things make on ads, probably because they've purchased things and had them not be all that they hoped they would be. Or maybe not, maybe because we talk about lots of things including ads and whats on television. At the moment there are a series of ads for the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children that are really disturbing. And they make me angry. There is no reason why I need my nose rubbed in the horrors that they want me to believe in enough to pay money to them. There was an ad for Great Ormond Street Hospital the other day that suggested that 3 pounds a month would house families whose children were in their care. 3 pounds a month isn't going to pay for a family to stay in London. 3 pounds a month isn't going to even pay for the ad. But that's just my rant of the
moment.
Being able to discern fiction from reality, the bias of a salesperson and a buyer, all of that, is about critical thinking. Simon and Linnaea will test to see the validity of a statement more often than not. They aren't fools. Television hasn't swayed them to believe or disbelieve things based on one perspective. Television often has more than one perspective to offer on many different things. The different views of school, for example. Some present it in glowing terms, others as a social gathering place, and others as the first circle of hell. And, as school doesn't just exist on television, both Simon and Linnaea could explore it in lots of others ways if they chose to.
Just like hypnosis, television can't make you do something you don't want to do.
Schuyler
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I was explaining to friends why we don't give Disney movies to our daughter.
We said "we don't want her to imagine Snow White as necessarily the Disney
character for the rest of her life". Our friend said "what do you mean?
everyone knows how Snow White looks like", then he described Disney's Snow
White! It was so sad to see that he does not even get that Snow White can be
different from one person to another, it just depend on each one
imagination.... Well, at least Disney is now (in 2009) starting to create
princesses with dark colour...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She was little and her goals were different. Now she likes being herself. She likes watching ICarly and Phineas and Ferb and Chowder and Glee and QI and Mock the Week and Spongebob and some Japanese films and, and, and... She doesn't aspire to be a princess, although Disney princesses aren't bad role models. They screw up and apologize, they are kind and generous, they wear really cool clothes, at least cool to a little girl who loves pink.
Both Linnaea and Simon have shown themselves, over and over again, to be more powerful than television and it's influence. They are very critical of claims that things make on ads, probably because they've purchased things and had them not be all that they hoped they would be. Or maybe not, maybe because we talk about lots of things including ads and whats on television. At the moment there are a series of ads for the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children that are really disturbing. And they make me angry. There is no reason why I need my nose rubbed in the horrors that they want me to believe in enough to pay money to them. There was an ad for Great Ormond Street Hospital the other day that suggested that 3 pounds a month would house families whose children were in their care. 3 pounds a month isn't going to pay for a family to stay in London. 3 pounds a month isn't going to even pay for the ad. But that's just my rant of the
moment.
Being able to discern fiction from reality, the bias of a salesperson and a buyer, all of that, is about critical thinking. Simon and Linnaea will test to see the validity of a statement more often than not. They aren't fools. Television hasn't swayed them to believe or disbelieve things based on one perspective. Television often has more than one perspective to offer on many different things. The different views of school, for example. Some present it in glowing terms, others as a social gathering place, and others as the first circle of hell. And, as school doesn't just exist on television, both Simon and Linnaea could explore it in lots of others ways if they chose to.
Just like hypnosis, television can't make you do something you don't want to do.
Schuyler
________________________________
I was explaining to friends why we don't give Disney movies to our daughter.
We said "we don't want her to imagine Snow White as necessarily the Disney
character for the rest of her life". Our friend said "what do you mean?
everyone knows how Snow White looks like", then he described Disney's Snow
White! It was so sad to see that he does not even get that Snow White can be
different from one person to another, it just depend on each one
imagination.... Well, at least Disney is now (in 2009) starting to create
princesses with dark colour...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]