Christy

I wanted to take the time to introduce myself. I've been on this list now for a few weeks, and thoroughly enjoying the discussions here, and thought it was time to say Hi!

My name is Christy--I am married (5 years) and have two children--1 biological son (17) and 1 adopted daughter (3). We are in our 4th year of homeschooling, and our 1st embracing the unschooling philosophy. We are doing well--our son is the most at peace and free than he has ever been and it is wonderful to watch all that he is embracing as his passions emerge. Our daughter is a free spirit and has been able to discover her passions as well--which is also an incredible sight :)

We are currently foster parents in our state and have begun to provide care for 2 young girls (ages 3 and 5). We are hoping to adopt them, but as of right now, their case is still tied up in the court system and could be for quite some time. The obstacle I am facing at this time is how to parent them....since our priorities seem to be a bit different than those of the Department of Social Services. Anything from eating to sleeping to discipline to school...very different views. I find myself slipping into my authoritarian past and demanding respect---mainly because I feel the pressure to "be" something different than what we are. Plus the girls are coming from a very authoritarian home, so the react negatively to any correction. They also demand things as well--what to eat, to play, to watch on tv...they have been described as children with "attachment issues" and have been treated as such...

It is difficult, these are children that I did not birth and they have come to us with their own set of issues that we were not a part of...yet their frustration is directed toward us and anyone that disagrees with them. We are continuing to look at them as the beautiful children that they are, accentuate the positive and try to overlook the rest...

I'm just curious if anyone on this list has had similar experiences and if so, can you offer your thoughts on how to encourage the children and remain true to your convictions?

Thanks so much for reading ;)
Christy

casa_divina

Hi everyone,

This group is dear to me and I have been reading almost every message for over a year. We have been unschooling for a year or so. we live in Ecuador and my children are 6 and 4.5.

The other day I took my two daughters into the "big city" Quito and we ended up doing alot of fun things, buying a few pre-Christmas gifts and seeing friends. We spent the night in a hotel. Everytime we walked by the Christmas tree in the lobby, Divina (6) would admire one of the ornaments on the tree. It was a beautiful beaded, long ornament. She has recently gotten into beading and we stopped many times to admire the color of the beads, the design, etc.

On the bus on the way home Divina and her sister, Sabina, were sitting to together and started to act funny - like they were doing something they knew they shouldn't be doing. I was curious and asked them what was up.

In the past that has been the time they almost always filled me in on whatever suspicious activity they are up to. I have tried to be really aware of how I respond when they tell me they have broken something, or have done something that I might be upset about. I know they usually tell me what's going on because they know they won't "get in trouble" and we always talk about it. If it has been something that upsets me, then I let them know that. And we talk about why. Why they did it, why it upset me. And then it's over.



So when they both said "nothing" on the bus and the secrets and guilty faces continued I decided to let it go, trusting that they would tell me when it was time. Later on the bus ride I saw the Christmas tree ornament hanging out of Divina's bag. My face got red and my heart fell when I realized she had stolen the ornament from the hotel and then was hiding it from me on the bus. I was exhausted and the girls were really wound up, so I knew that it wasn't the time to take on the subject.

Later, as we were arriving to our hometown, Divina told me that she had taken the ornament. I was relieved that she was honest with me, but totally not sure how to respond. I knew shaming her and making her feel bad was not the way to go if I wanted to foster open, honest communication. But, I also felt like she should be aware of the gravity of the situation (ie stealing is NOT GOOD). So I told her that I wished she would have told me that she wanted to have the ornament when we were at the hotel. We could have asked if we could pay for it, or asked them where they got, to get one similar. I told her it was not okay to take things that belong to someone else without asking. Then I shut up. I have a tendency to say too much and I really didn't want to blow it.

Once, at that same hotel, she really liked the fake flowers they had there. We looked for something like it in stores and found nothing. So she asked me if I would ask them if we could buy a few from them. It's a small, family-run hotel and it seemed reasonable. They know us, as we stay there a few times a year, and so I did ask. The receptionist was really sweet and handed us a few flowers at no charge.

So when we got home I noticed that she had hung the ornament on the tree. It made me feel weird to have a stolen ornament on our tree, and I quietly and privately told her so. I also told her that I thought we should mail back the ornament to the hotel. I mentioned it to my husband as well, but really played it down and kinda joked about it, because I was worried he would get on her back about it, or shame her or lecture her. But that didn't happen.

So, to wrap this up (ha! Christmas pun intended) I'm wondering how other unschooling families have handled stealing/pocketing with their small children. I feel sort of betrayed. Like she's growing up and wanting to leave me out of her thoughts and actions (which I guess she has a right to, I mean that's what maturing is to some extent, right? ) But I'm hoping to learn how I can still be included in those internal dialogues (when considering taking something, or doing something she knows she shouldn't do).

Also, that same day, we were at a friend's house and the friend's bracelet dropped out of Divina's bag. She had obviously pocketed it and Sabina (her sister) promptly picked it up and gave it back to the friend. I decided not to say anything in the moment because the situation had sort of taken care of itself. Again, not sure if I handled that right. Maybe I should have a follow up conversation, but also worried about to much blah blah.

thoughts and experience greatly appreciated!

Molly in Ecuador
Divina 6
Sabina 4.5

Sandra Dodd

What if you call the hotel and talk to them and ask if you can send
them a check? Or if the ornament was special, offer to send it
back? But the check would be less expensive and then Davina will own
it, and it might be a reminder every Christmas of how much she's grown
up and away from that day.

Once Kirby came home from playing with the neighbor, and he had a
twenty-dollar bill in his hand. He was five or six, I think. He was
looking at it oddly, and he said "Look what I found in the street."

Wow, I said. Was there anyone out there who might've dropped it? No,
he said, but he seemed dazed, rather than excited as I thought he
would have been if he found twenty dollars.

In a while the neighbor's mom called and said there had been a twenty
dollar bill and did I think Kirby might have gotten it. I said yes,
and we'd come over, so he gave it back to her and said sorry and she
was nice about it. We talked a bit and I said I guess once he had it
he couldn't figure out how to return it, and we all agreed it was very
awkward, but at least he wasn't sneaky about it.

Once money was missing from the karate dojo, when Kirby was ten or
eleven and the sensei called me to ask whether Kirby might have gotten
it, since he had been in the dressing room. One of the guys had left
cash in his shoe. It had been over a day since it had happened, and
Kirby had neither acted funny, nor had he gone and bought any thing.
I figured if he had cash he would have bought Pokemon cards or
whatever the equivalent thing was in those days (I think it was
Pokemon days). But I admitted that he had once taken that other money
from a neighbor and returned it.

The teacher was stressed, and he liked Kirby, but he said they
couldn't have a thief at the dojo. Kirby said he didn't get it, and I
believed him but the teacher was doubtful and worried. They found
the money another day or two later, though. It had fallen behind the
shelf or some such, so Kirby was cleared and the other guy had the
money, and as the years passed, there, Kirby became the most trusted
student and used to housesit (the sensei lived in the building the
dojo and the store were in).

I think treating it was an awkward and and unfortunate situation that
needs to be resolved, without condemning the child is the way to go.

Sandra

Pam Sorooshian

On 12/13/2009 4:00 PM, Christy wrote:
> The obstacle I am facing at this time is how to parent them....since our priorities seem to be a bit different than those of the Department of Social Services. Anything from eating to sleeping to discipline to school...very different views. I find myself slipping into my authoritarian past and demanding respect---mainly because I feel the pressure to "be" something different than what we are. Plus the girls are coming from a very authoritarian home, so the react negatively to any correction. They also demand things as well--what to eat, to play, to watch on tv...they have been described as children with "attachment issues" and have been treated as such...
>
I think it is hard for most of us to become good unschooling parents ---
doing it with the added stresses of have DSS looking over your shoulder
really makes it more difficult. Doing it with THREE children ages 2, 3,
and 4 plus a 17 year old seems just extraordinarily hard.

So - if you're determined to do it, more power to you (you'll need it).
I do know someone who adopted four young children and has successfully
unschooled, so I'm not saying it is impossible. But, she has an
extremely involved husband and two sets of very very involved
grandparents, too. From the outside, anyway, it looks very difficult.
They do seem very very happy, though.

My suggestion to you is to focus on making a "better" choice each time
you can. I think that was the most helpful advice I got as a parent of
younger kids - it was surprisingly practical and encouraging to simply
consider at least two choices and pick the better one. The next time,
try to think of the one you did choose and then one other - pick the
better one. If you make a choice you're unhappy with, after the fact,
think then about what would have been a better choice - have that one
"on hand" for next time.

Don't expect to be perfect, but expect yourself to be improving all the
time.

-pam

casa_divina

Thanks Sandra,

I like the idea of calling the hotel and offering to pay for it, or return it. It's very true what you say about children getting themselves in situations that they don't know how to handle (like Kirby coming home with the $20). That's why I feel like my response to this situation is important because it could determine how other, more difficult situations will be handled in the past.

I'm off to look up the phone number of the hotel!

Molly in Ecuador
Divina 6
Sabina 4.5

kelly_sturman

This thread brought back two memories. I remember stealing a Weeble--
does anybody remember those toys?--in preschool, because I thought
Weebles were SOOOO cool, and I didn't have any, and I knew my parents
couldn't afford to buy me any. I put it in my pocket and brought it home
from pre-school, then hid it in my room. Couldn't sleep a wink that night,
tossing and turning with guilt. You can bet I snuck that Weeble back into
my classroom the next day!

The other memory is of something that happened a year or two later: I got
to wondering what pebbles would sound like as they bounced off the sides of a
moving car. It honestly NEVER occurred to me that throwing rocks at cars
could do damage, or that the owners of the cars might be upset. I was just
honestly curious about what sort of sound the pebbles would make. I think
I had become aware of the Doppler effect, and was wondering about that...

Anyway, one day, after school, at the baby sitter's house, I mentioned this
to the baby sitters' two daughters. They thought throwing rocks at cars sounded
like fun, so off we went to give it a try. Can you imagine my surprise when the
first car we threw pebbles came to a screeching stop, and a VERY angry man
got out and yelled at us? Honestly, I was SHOCKED. To me, this was no different
than skipping stones across a pond, but, gosh, this guy was ANGRY.

He hollered at us for awhile, and then He then complained to the babysitter, who
promptly spanked her two girls, yelling at them for being a bad example for me.
(They were often in trouble, and I never was.) The whole story was relayed to my
mother when she came to pick me up, with MORE apologies for how the other
girls had been a bad influence on me. All the way home, my mother talked
about how proud she was that I didn't act like those other, stupid girls, how relieved
she was that she didn't have to spank me and send me to bed without my supper.

I recall it took me several days to 'fess up to being the "mastermind" behind that
particular adventure; I remember being in tears, crying for fear of being spanked
and sent to bed without my supper, crying because I didn't know how I could
have been so stupid, and crying because I had let my parents down by acting
stupid. What I can't remember is what happened AFTER my confession.

Anyway, I was thinking, sometimes people make mistakes because of an
impulse, and sometimes people just aren't thinking things through. If we
can help our kids to think things through, I think (hope) that they will become
more able to think more things through on our own... eventually. But of course,
there are times all through life when we make mistakes, and need a safe person
to talk to, and need forgiveness, and help in making amends.

Also, these memories remind me that we can pass judgment on our kids,
indirectly, by passing judgment on others'. If we aren't tolerant, forgiving,
understanding of people in general, then we our kids won't feel that we
will be tolerant, forgiving, understanding of them, and with good reason!

We can respond to our children's mistakes in a way that encourages them to
let us help them to think the problem though and to make amends.

Most people appreciate when others make amends. The missing ornament
may have gone unnoticed, but the act of sending it back, or paying for
a replacement, most likely will NOT go unnoticed.

Kelly Sturman

wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Sandra,
>
>It's very true what you say about children getting themselves in situations that they don't know how to handle.

Shira Rocklin

So, the consensus here is that stealing the ornament was wrong, and some
amends could be made to remedy the situation. I would like to know...
if a child didn't seem to know that what they did was wrong, how would
you explain it? And what if they didn't want to return the item, or pay
for it after the fact? (Although I guess a parent could always go and
pay for it anyways, but that might not always be possible, if it were
expensive). Is there an assumption here that children just knows that
certain acts are 'wrong' (I'm pretty sure we intuitively know that
murder is wrong, but stealing seems a bit grey to me)? Is 'wrong' the
wrong word?

lauradbg2000

I'm sorry I haven't written on here before and that this will be my first post. It's probably better to have some posts introducing myself before jumping in, but I feel strongly about this thread.

I think the ornament should be returned and as an alternative to that offer to pay for it--not the other way around. It is difficult, but children can understand concepts such as property. They can understand how they might feel if someone took one of their things and how it would be better if it was returned to them rather than the person offering to pay them for their thing--as if he/she has the right to decide what to do with it.

It was not your daughter's ornament. She took it. She should return it. If the people are amenable, you can pay for it. But, that's their decision to make.

Having said all of this, I also don't think you should shame your daughter, but empathize with her strong feelings about the ornament. It was special to her. Captivating. Amazing. But, it might be so to the hotel people too. And, even if it wasn't special to them, it was theirs. Just as your daughter has her stuff--is it only protected and hers to have if it's special and amazing? Doesn't that set up the kind of limited thinking we want to avoid? i.e. "You already have that, you don't need more!" Or, "You never play with the one you have--we should get rid of it!"

I think your daughter should be helped to understand this.

My daughter took a stuffed animal from a friend once when she was 4 or 5. I discovered it when we were driving away from the playdate, almost at home, as she was hiding it from me under her shirt... she was not good at being sneaky, and felt horrible and scared and guilty about it. I was sympathetic and we talked about how great the lion was. It's fur was so soft and fluffy and it looked kind but was also strong and majestic, just like a real lion. She liked it and wanted it to be her friend.

I called the mom when we got home and offered to return right away and she suggested that we could come back the next day. So, I told my daughter that the lion could have a sleepover with us and meet all of her animals, and then she'd have to go back home where she had all of her family and friends.

My daughter was a little sad about it all, but understood, at least as a concept, that the lion should go back to her friend who was missing it, that it was hers and that we must not take things that don't belong to us.

I share my things with my kids to an extent. There are some things that I don't--they're special to me or inappropriate for kids. I don't expect my kids to share unless they want to usually. If something is special to them, they don't have to share it, but we put it away or don't bring it with us if we will be around other kids who might want it.

My kids understand that they have right over their own property and by extension that others have right over their own. They also like to share all sorts of things with us and their friends and are generous. It comes from them without my prompting.

My kids are imperfect kids just as I am an imperfect mom. We don't always get it right and we tend to repeat the same mistakes over and over until we don't any more. It is not a straight, even line. But, we're trying.

Sandra often speaks about being conscious about living with principles more than following rigid rules, and I think the concept of property and ownership is a principle that children can learn about and have evenly applied with them and the rest of the world.

I think your daughter can understand. She might not like it, she might be sad about it, but she can understand big ideas. Most kids can.

Laura G.
(Mom to an 11 year old Runescape fanatic boy and a 9 year old Harry Potter officianado girl. Wife to a ukulele playing industrial designer husband. Interspecies mom to a 24 year old cat (!))




--- In [email protected], "casa_divina" <casa_divina@...> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Sandra,
>
> I like the idea of calling the hotel and offering to pay for it, or return it. It's very true what you say about children getting themselves in situations that they don't know how to handle (like Kirby coming home with the $20). That's why I feel like my response to this situation is important because it could determine how other, more difficult situations will be handled in the past.
>
> I'm off to look up the phone number of the hotel!
>
> Molly in Ecuador
> Divina 6
> Sabina 4.5
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-if a child didn't seem to know that what they did was wrong, how
would
you explain it? And what if they didn't want to return the item, or pay
for it after the fact?-=-

If one of my children had stolen something and not wanted to return
it, I would have confiscated it and returned it myself, probably. It
depends on the item, because I don't want to contribute here to
anyone's rule-building.

There have been laws for a long time about harboring thieves or
receiving stolen merchandise. This is one of those (many) instances
in which being unschoolers doesn't change our relationship with the
world one bit!

-=- Is there an assumption here that children just knows that
certain acts are 'wrong' (I'm pretty sure we intuitively know that
murder is wrong, but stealing seems a bit grey to me)? Is 'wrong' the
wrong word? -=-

If anything has ever been wrong, stealing is wrong. Stealing is
generally a greater crime than killing someone, because killing has
lots of justifications. Theft has few to none. Stealing has been a
crime since caveman days, no doubt. And then comes culture, which
involves some people claiming ownership over group-acquired or -
created things, but that's a whole 'nother topic. Just pointing out
that I'm not trying to make a statement out of simplistic ignorance.
(My ignorance is more complex... <g>)

Any child who has ever owned something knows that it would be wrong
for someone else to take it.
Any parent who says "this is yours" and then takes it away from the
child (to trash it secretly as my mom used to do to things, or to
withhold it as punishment, or to let siblings play with it over the
protests of the owner) is creating a sneak thief.

If I had wanted to train my children to be thieves (as a neighbor who
used to live behind me did) I could have done that. Treating them
cruelly helps. It makes them needy.


But that doesn't apply in the case of this Christmas ornament.

The reason I recommended calling the hotel applies because it's a
hotel. They woulnn't put family heirloom ornaments on a tree in a
public place. It's difficult to mail things the week before
Christmas. They might rather have cash. They might not even save
those ornaments from year to year but might say "Oh, keep it."

If one of my children stole an ornament from a private home, I would
definitely send it back and not even consider offering to buy it.
People's ornaments on their own trees in their own homes probably have
sentimental value. Ornaments on trees in hotel lobbies are unlikely
to have that.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

>
> If anything has ever been wrong, stealing is wrong. Stealing is
> generally a greater crime than killing someone, because killing has
> lots of justifications. Theft has few to none.

Maybe one of the few is hunger. I know of a woman who was so broke and
her kids so hungry, she took some fruit from a store. She felt really
desperate. She was already going to a food bank, but it wasn't enough.
She was caught by the store, but in the end, not charged. It scared
her, big time, though, after she thought about the consequences to her
children (of her going to jail, of having a record, not being able to
get a job).

Robin B.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe one of the few is hunger. I know of a woman who was so broke
and
her kids so hungry, she took some fruit from a store.-=-

I don't think a judge would have called that justifiable theft, though
there are judges who say that one murder or another makes perfect sense.

If I have oranges, my neighbor doesn't have the right to take them no
matter how hungry he is.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

A clarification, about my rhetorical oranges. I probably live a
thousand miles from naturally-growing oranges, so when I have oranges
I brought imported-from-out-of-state oranges.

If I had a big field of corn and poor people picked some corn, or if I
had apple trees full of apples (as we did sometimes when I was a kid)
and hungry people sneaked some apples, that's not at all the same kind
of deal.

If I had an orange tree and especially if branches hung on someone
else's property, that changes my whole "oranges" scenario.

Sandra

Robin Bentley

> -=-Maybe one of the few is hunger. I know of a woman who was so broke
> and
> her kids so hungry, she took some fruit from a store.-=-
>
> I don't think a judge would have called that justifiable theft, though
> there are judges who say that one murder or another makes perfect
> sense.
>
> If I have oranges, my neighbor doesn't have the right to take them no
> matter how hungry he is.
>
>
Hmm. I see your point.

Does that mean that stealing is never, ever justified? Even to feed
children?

It's interesting that murder might be okay (a murder that makes
sense), but stealing wouldn't be. Is it true everywhere in the world,
in terms of culture, judicial systems, religion?

I always thought of murder being a worse crime than stealing. And more
forgivable (at least by me). If you steal from me, I'm not going to
like it, but you've taken "stuff." If you kill my husband, it's a life
taken and my life and my family's is changed forever.

Aren't the penalties for stealing less severe than for murder, at
least in Western democracies? How does that segue with whether the
crime is justified or not?

Robin B.

Christy

< My suggestion to you is to focus on making a "better" choice each time
you can. I think that was the most helpful advice I got as a parent of
younger kids - it was surprisingly practical and encouraging to simply
consider at least two choices and pick the better one. The next time,
try to think of the one you did choose and then one other - pick the
better one. If you make a choice you're unhappy with, after the fact,
think then about what would have been a better choice - have that one
"on hand" for next time.>

Thank you, Pam, for this suggestion...I like the simplicity of this statement. Not that any of this is simple, but I think I can always focus on making a better choice for my children and look at each situation needing it's own response...

Sandra Dodd

-=-Aren't the penalties for stealing less severe than for murder, at
least in Western democracies? How does that segue with whether the
crime is justified or not?-=-

When the crime seems justified that doesn't get a severe penalty.
Maybe none at all.

The other night a policeman shot and killed a guy in Albuquerque. It
had been many years since that happened. It wasn't "murder," but a
man is dead. (Not a good guy, from all reports; still...)

No one will fault this man who happens to be a policeman for killing
this man who was clearly in the midst of violence, and also holding a
shotgun while officers were asking him to please step out of the house
and talk to them. He didn't plan to do that, and it was a domestic
violence call (and not his wife, and the guy had already been in
trouble a few days earlier). Bad. Death. Justifiable.

Had that same policeman gone into the house and pocketed some CDs or
some jewelry, *that* would be crazy. Abuse of power. None of his
business whatsoever.

-=-Does that mean that stealing is never, ever justified? Even to feed
children?-=-

I don't think I said that, and I don't think anyone can or should say
that. Who's in a position to judge, in advance, all situations past
or future?

Theft isn't usually about bread, oranges, CDs or jewelry. It's not
usually about starvation.

-=-I always thought of murder being a worse crime than stealing. And
more
forgivable (at least by me). If you steal from me, I'm not going to
like it, but you've taken "stuff." If you kill my husband, it's a life
taken and my life and my family's is changed forever.-=-

Someone killing my husband out of petty meanness or out of joy-ride
youthful bullshit would have committed one of the worst crimes in the
world. If someone killed my husband out of self defense or to defend
their children, that would be different. It would still change my
life as much, but their motives are at the heart of the criminality or
forgiveability of it. And one person might forgive another while
others might not. Noone earns the forgiveness nor the censure of all
the world at once. Each of us decides what and whom to forgive within
ourselves. Juries vote. Judges ponder. Other people get to revile
or glorify as they wish to, freely. Some thieves respect other
thieves highly, no doubt.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

When Jayn was little, I'm going to say pretty close to 5, her friend R
(about 7 or 8) brought over some small items that her dad had picked up for
her during his recent trip to Japan. She wanted to show them to Jayn.

There was quite a lot of dress up play going on during the play date.
Eventually the time came for the visitor to go on home (just down the
balcony), and we started to gather up the things that she had brought with
her.

Two pretty hairpins with flowers made from kimono silk were missing. They
were small - bobby pin size. So I proceeded to search through all the dress
up stuff and all over where they had been playing. I looked under the sofa
and the sofa pillows.

I had a feeling from the way Jayn was kinda looking odd and trying to
encourage her friend to leave (very unusual) that she had taken them, but I
couldn't be sure. I figured I would have to go through her stuff later -
which is a pretty large undertaking. I took her aside and asked her a couple
of times is she knew where they were and wanted to get them, but she denied
knowing where they were.

Eventually, after probably a good 40 minutes of really picking through
everything they had played with in the course of the playdate, R started
getting pretty teary. I assured her that I wouldn't stop searching until I
found them, even if she went home. Jayn tried to cheer her up by drawing her
a picture, but she wasn't to be consoled.

Suddenly Jayn looked at her and seemed to really notice how sad she was.
Jayn asked her something like "Are you really that upset?" and her friend
said, "Yes". Then Jayn turned and went into her room and a moment later came
out with the two pins which she had hidden. She handed them back to her
friend and said she was sorry, and asked if R felt better now.

Her friend was pretty surprised and said something like, "You liked them so
you just took them to keep?" and I said something like, "I thought it might
have been that." I told Jayn that I was proud of her for giving the pins
back, and she told me that she didn't like to see her friend so sad. I also
told Jayn that if she saw something that belonged to somone else that she
liked and wanted, to tell me so that I could try to get another for her.

I am proud of Jayn for coming to that decision herself, and the reason she
returned the pins too. It was helpful for her to see that taking something
not her own affects other people directly. This time it was very personal,
but the principle that others can be hurt by theft is applicable to any
thing.

I think the girl was a bit surprised that I wasn't punishing Jayn. That same
little girl had some (quite a few) months earlier taken my diamond ring from
the bathroom and hidden it in her own jewelry box at home. The girls had
been playing dress up and makeovers, and Jayn had shown R. the ring earlier
with my permission.

It wasn't until after she had gone home and I happened to go into the
bathroom that I noticed the ring was gone. I asked Jayn about it, but she
didn't know where it was. So I thought about it and called R's mom. I tried
to be very gentle wondering if R had accidentally worn my ring home, and
said something about how she might have forgotten that she had the ring on
because they had been trying on different bits and pieces of jewelry playing
dress up, trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.

A few minutes later R. came back with the ring looking very hangdog and
down. I'm pretty sure she had been spanked and was probably looking forward
to being grounded or other punishments. Her mom had gone through the jewelry
box, and apparently she had tried to tell some malarkey about thinking it
was her aunt's ring in the box. I wish I had gone to the door instead,
because then I could have asked to speak to R directly and given her the
chance to give it to me and avoid what was probably excessive (IMO)
punishments.

We have also been the victim of theft, specifically with our car being
broken into more than once. Recently my GPS navigator was stolen after the
window was smashed. This was inconvenient and ended up being costly, and had
a direct effect on Jayn's comfort - so now she has that added layer of
information to add to her world view.

Anyway, the contrast of the two different ways of handling relatively
similar situations might be useful to someone. I can tell you that Jayn has
never stolen anything else since, to my knowledge. When she sees something
like that ornament that she likes, she tells me, and we would usually ask
about it immediately. In the past some kind people at a family owned diner
gave her a little carved wooden angel that she was adimiring - it was very
sweet and I think they appreciated Jayn effusive gratitude in the moment.

I think I would insist on returning the ornament, because the feelings of
the managment about their tree are irrelevant to the idea that taking
something that belongs to others without permission is a bad idea in
general. But I would also show Jayn that she can always trust me to help her
get what she wants by seeking out something similar to buy locally or find a
way to make it. We could make a quest of it that would replace a bad memory
with a good experience


Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

emiLy Q.

Today we were at a small independent toy store. My daughter bought
something with her money, my husband picked up a few things for the kids for
Christmas, and my son was playing with the train table they have set out and
lots of other things.

My daughter started trying to use a yo-yo, and we asked her not to, and she
kept doing it. She was throwing it down to try to get it to come back up,
but one of the times the string came off her hand and wooden yo-yo broke
when it hit the floor.

She had spent all her money on her toy, so she and I took the broken yo-yo
up to the counter. One sales girl rang us up and said we could probably try
wood glue on it, and I said we probably would. Then another sales girl was
talking to us and asked what we were getting, etc. and I said we're getting
this because she broke it. She immediately said, Oh, you don't have to buy
it -- we'll just put it in the damaged bin, no, no, no. I had already paid
for it, and she was going to start a refund and said "Just come back another
time to get other toys." and I said "well, why don't we just get a yo-yo
today and not issue the refund?" So my daughter picked a new, not broken,
yo-yo. It was a great experience for all of us.

-emiLy

Sandra Dodd

-=-
Thank you, Pam, for this suggestion...I like the simplicity of this
statement. -=-

Pam did summarize it really well. I saved it here:
http://sandradodd.com/betterchoice

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

emiLy Q.

I disagree. In many ways, a grocery store with an overabundance of fruit
could be said to have a tree with lots on it. Grocery stores throw away a
lot of fruit. It's still not OK to take from a grocery store.

We had a fruit tree on some rental property and we were NOT happy when the
tenants (1 out of a 4 unit building) picked 90% of the apples. When we
asked for the apples they had STOLEN, they gave us 3 grocery bags full and
then poured gas or something on the tree, killing it. ARRRRRRGH

-emiLy, mom to Delia (6) & Henry (2.5)
Happy Pottying!
http://www.HappyPottying.com


On 12/16/09 1:13 PM, "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...> wrote:

> A clarification, about my rhetorical oranges. I probably live a
> thousand miles from naturally-growing oranges, so when I have oranges
> I brought imported-from-out-of-state oranges.
>
> If I had a big field of corn and poor people picked some corn, or if I
> had apple trees full of apples (as we did sometimes when I was a kid)
> and hungry people sneaked some apples, that's not at all the same kind
> of deal.
>
> If I had an orange tree and especially if branches hung on someone
> else's property, that changes my whole "oranges" scenario.
>
> Sandra
>

Katy Jennings

<<<<<We had a fruit tree on some rental property and we were NOT happy when the
tenants (1 out of a 4 unit building) picked 90% of the apples. When we
asked for the apples they had STOLEN, they gave us 3 grocery bags full and
then poured gas or something on the tree, killing it>>>>>



Killing the tree was horrible and mean, not at all the same as some hungry people taking some apples from a full tree. I am not sure, if I were renting a property and there was a fruit tree on it, I don't think I would have considered it stealing to take the fruit. They are renting the property that the tree is on after all. I do think that the fruit should be shared will all 4 tenants.



When I was a kid there was a house that the neighborhood kids walked past on the way to our elementary school. We used to pick (steal...) pomegranates from the tree that grew near the back fence and eat them on the way home. As I got older I started to feel bad that we did that (though I found out that my brother did it too, 10 years before me!), so I planted pomegranate trees along my back fence and let the neighborhood kids know that they could have them, just to make sure that they didn't make a mess of their clothes so that they didn't get in trouble with their parents.



Katy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I disagree. In many ways, a grocery store with an overabundance of
fruit
could be said to have a tree with lots on it-=-

Whoa!
First, you didn't disagree.
Second, I was talking about literal trees, not figurative trees. In
no literal way is a grocery store a tree.

When I was a kid we had an orchard. 52 trees. A couple of years we
sold apples, but usually not. But there are laws about trees. If the
branch of a fruit tree is hanging over into another yard, the fruit
that falls or that can be picked without reaching across the fence is
okay to have. That may not be true everywhere, but where we live it
is. If a tree hangs out into a public roadway, those apples are
growing in public. Not the whole tree. If people want to keep their
trees on their own property, they need to trim them to stay within the
fence or wall.

-=We had a fruit tree on some rental property and we were NOT happy
when the
tenants (1 out of a 4 unit building) picked 90% of the apples. When we
asked for the apples they had STOLEN, they gave us 3 grocery bags full
and
then poured gas or something on the tree, killing it. ARRRRRRGH-=-


Killing it would suck, but it doesn't sound like anything was STOLEN
unless you lived there too and had made clear that they were renting
the apartment only, and not any part of the grounds. If they were
expected to keep the yard clean, and their rental agreement didn't say
"don't touch the apple tree" it doesn't seem to be STEALING.

There's are all kinds of differences among locations and intended
purposes and ownership of the fruit on trees, and none of it has to do
with stores.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JH

I work full time from home and I have a daughter that is 3yrs and a 1yr old.  I have a two nannies/babysitters (they alternate days) that come in and watch my children since my husband goes to law school full time and is not the best with small children- good with the 3 yr old not so good with the diapers.  Both my nannies/babysitters are out of work elementary teachers.  I thought this was going to be good but now I am unsure.  I have unschooling principals on the fridge and tried to explain my thoughts about school ahead of time but one of the nannies has started to "teach" my daughter things and give her "lessons".  I am not sure how to approach it- I have read your web site over and over and I was thinking of saying something like "I don't want to "teach" her anything- I know that sounds weird but I would like to try it for awhile and see what would happen"  My statement in quotes is sort of true but not really- I don't think it is weird and I
don't really want to try it for awhile that is what I am going to do but I know she will think it is weird.

Do you think this is an ok approach.  I like the nannies- they are nice and are nice to my kids and play most of the time but it upsets me when one of them puts on the "I am going to teach you this now" hat.  Do you think I am making too big of a deal of it and should not say anything?  SHe was teaching my daughter that 5 pennies are in a nickel and kept trying to get her to tell me answers, etc.  My daughter did not care and was not interested.  Most nannies treat my daughter like she is 5 or 6 since she knows all her letters, sounds of letters, has started to write, read a little and loves books but she is really only 3.  I want her to do her own thing- I don't want to force anything. 

What do you think? Should I be concerned or do I just worry too much. 


---














[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nicola Phillips

HI there,
I was a nanny before having my own son.
SO i will give my 'nanny' side !
this is tricky, as its like asking to do something that goes against THIER gut .. they are doing what feels right for them, like we are doing what feels right for us.
nannies are also trained to 'teach' children. i went to a college called 'Norland' (im from England) it was all bout structure, routine and teaching children. .. .. for all my nanny charges this is how i was - this is what is expected (i DINNT enjoy being that way, it felt wrong)
your nanny will be doing what she thinks, she is ment to be doing to be a GOOD nanny- saying actually id rather you didnt teach her will either be a relief OR not the way she likes to do things and think about if the job is right for her.

i worked for one family who i Quit from as they wanted me to be a way i simply coudnt agree to be BE 9 hrs a day .. .. ..

Also the nannies you have employed are teachers therefor they want to teach .. .. ..

maybe think about -if the nannies are wonderfull just go with it - there are more good employers out there than good nannies .. trust me.
also not helpfull - but ive had to 'choose' to be a full time mum as this is the only way i can garentee my son is brought up the way i belive is right - .. everyone has their own view, no way is wrong or right - its what WE think is right / wrong - i belive unschooling is the way to go , thats my opinion- which isnt shared with MOST of my friends !
kind regards and love Nicola xx
--- In [email protected], JH <roseelly@...> wrote:
>
> I work full time from home and I have a daughter that is 3yrs and a 1yr old.  I have a two nannies/babysitters (they alternate days) that come in and watch my children since my husband goes to law school full time and is not the best with small children- good with the 3 yr old not so good with the diapers.  Both my nannies/babysitters are out of work elementary teachers.  I thought this was going to be good but now I am unsure.  I have unschooling principals on the fridge and tried to explain my thoughts about school ahead of time but one of the nannies has started to "teach" my daughter things and give her "lessons".  I am not sure how to approach it- I have read your web site over and over and I was thinking of saying something like "I don't want to "teach" her anything- I know that sounds weird but I would like to try it for awhile and see what would happen"  My statement in quotes is sort of true but not really- I don't think it is weird and I
> don't really want to try it for awhile that is what I am going to do but I know she will think it is weird.
>
> Do you think this is an ok approach.  I like the nannies- they are nice and are nice to my kids and play most of the time but it upsets me when one of them puts on the "I am going to teach you this now" hat.  Do you think I am making too big of a deal of it and should not say anything?  SHe was teaching my daughter that 5 pennies are in a nickel and kept trying to get her to tell me answers, etc.  My daughter did not care and was not interested.  Most nannies treat my daughter like she is 5 or 6 since she knows all her letters, sounds of letters, has started to write, read a little and loves books but she is really only 3.  I want her to do her own thing- I don't want to force anything. 
>
> What do you think? Should I be concerned or do I just worry too much. 
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Also the nannies you have employed are teachers therefor they want
to teach .. .. .. -=-

I was a teacher because I wanted to be around learning, and to be
there with people who were happy to learn.
There are some teachers "who want to teach" in the way being
described, but there are other ways to approach it.

Still, hiring someone partly because she has teaching credentials and
then asking her not to teach could be baffling to her. <g>

-=-SHe was teaching my daughter that 5 pennies are in a nickel and
kept trying to get her to tell me answers, etc. My daughter did not
care and was not interested.-=-

Maybe you could say "Just play with her and don't 'have lessons,'
please," and see if she lights up about that and smiles, or if she
looks clueless.

If these ladies are nice and they have jobs, it would be a shame not
to keep them on. But if one decides to do something else anyway,
maybe consider an unschooled teen or young adult to help you out. I
don't know where you live but maybe there is an unschooling list and
maybe you could get a babysitter just on a few occasions and see if
someone gels with your kids and think about having her there more
often (or possibly him).

http://sandradodd.com/world

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

casa_divina

After I told Divina that I thought we should take the ornament back on the first day, it disappeared off the tree and I found it when I was rummaging for something deep in the shelves. I didn't take it, though. I left it there and then asked her later if I could have it so that I could take it back to the hotel if they decided they wanted it back. She ran downstairs, got the ornament from it's hiding place and brought it to me.

I called the hotel today and the receptionist (who probably didn't feel like she had the authority to give away the ornament) told me that I could bring it back the next time I was in Quito. I offered to pay for it, but she said bring it back. I asked her where they might have gotten it so we could get another one, she said she didn't know.


It was obvious to me that Divina knew that taking that ornament was wrong. That's why she acted funny on the bus, that's why she hid it from me, and that's why she hid it again when I told her we were going to give it back. I guess what is kind of freaking me out is that she had given me no signs that she wanted it for her own. We admire stuff all the time. I don't want to be worried that this is going to happen again the next time we admire something together. I guess I'm wondering how much I can talk to her about this because I have so much fear around her stealing.

I'm hoping in the future that she will come to me when she has done something wrong. And I also hope that there are more opportunities to talk about other people's possessions and how important it is to respect them.

It's hard not to feel like I have to teach her a lesson. That's where my childhood experiences want to come through and sabotage my parenting. Maybe there is something to be learned here, maybe not. But I do know that my relationship with my daughter is sacred and I want to preserve it while maintaining certain values - honesty, respect.

I will tell her tonight about my conversation with the hotel receptionist and I'll bring up a few ideas about making or buying an ornament for her.

Thank you for your input and experience. It's so great to have a place like this to go to when issues come up. I can't imagine talking with very many other people in my life about how to help my daughter (and myself!) through something like this!

Molly in Ecuador
Divina 6
Sabina 4.5



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-if a child didn't seem to know that what they did was wrong, how
> would
> you explain it? And what if they didn't want to return the item, or pay
> for it after the fact?-=-
>
> If one of my children had stolen something and not wanted to return
> it, I would have confiscated it and returned it myself, probably. It
> depends on the item, because I don't want to contribute here to
> anyone's rule-building.
>
> There have been laws for a long time about harboring thieves or
> receiving stolen merchandise. This is one of those (many) instances
> in which being unschoolers doesn't change our relationship with the
> world one bit!
>
> -=- Is there an assumption here that children just knows that
> certain acts are 'wrong' (I'm pretty sure we intuitively know that
> murder is wrong, but stealing seems a bit grey to me)? Is 'wrong' the
> wrong word? -=-
>
> If anything has ever been wrong, stealing is wrong. Stealing is
> generally a greater crime than killing someone, because killing has
> lots of justifications. Theft has few to none. Stealing has been a
> crime since caveman days, no doubt. And then comes culture, which
> involves some people claiming ownership over group-acquired or -
> created things, but that's a whole 'nother topic. Just pointing out
> that I'm not trying to make a statement out of simplistic ignorance.
> (My ignorance is more complex... <g>)
>
> Any child who has ever owned something knows that it would be wrong
> for someone else to take it.
> Any parent who says "this is yours" and then takes it away from the
> child (to trash it secretly as my mom used to do to things, or to
> withhold it as punishment, or to let siblings play with it over the
> protests of the owner) is creating a sneak thief.
>
> If I had wanted to train my children to be thieves (as a neighbor who
> used to live behind me did) I could have done that. Treating them
> cruelly helps. It makes them needy.
>
>
> But that doesn't apply in the case of this Christmas ornament.
>
> The reason I recommended calling the hotel applies because it's a
> hotel. They woulnn't put family heirloom ornaments on a tree in a
> public place. It's difficult to mail things the week before
> Christmas. They might rather have cash. They might not even save
> those ornaments from year to year but might say "Oh, keep it."
>
> If one of my children stole an ornament from a private home, I would
> definitely send it back and not even consider offering to buy it.
> People's ornaments on their own trees in their own homes probably have
> sentimental value. Ornaments on trees in hotel lobbies are unlikely
> to have that.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe there is something to be learned here, maybe not.-=-

Surely there was, but there might not be any additional lesson you
need to teach.

Could you take a photo of it so we could see if anyone on the list has
one like it or has seen one or knows how to make one or whatever?

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 17, 2009, at 8:46 PM, casa_divina wrote:

> I guess what is kind of freaking me out is that she had given me no
> signs that she wanted it for her own. We admire stuff all the time.
> I don't want to be worried that this is going to happen again the
> next time we admire something together. I guess I'm wondering how
> much I can talk to her about this because I have so much fear
> around her stealing.

She obviously already knows stealing is wrong so that's not the
problem and more focus on the wrongness won't help. The problem is
she doesn't know what to do with feelings that won't listen to reason
and go away ;-)

Talk to her about what she's feeling and come up with some strategies
she can use. (Taking a picture right then might be helpful.) Assume
she wants to be honest and trustworthy and just needs some more tools.

I'd bet she thinks her feelings of wanting something that doesn't
belong to her are unique to her or an indication she's bad. Letting
her know they're perfectly normal feelings might help a lot.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

casa_divina

I will take a picture today of the ornament. That's a great way for her to get to still look at it when she wants to. I will post it on here too. We can talk about the feelings it brought up while we're taking the pictures.

Thanks!

Molly


--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2009, at 8:46 PM, casa_divina wrote:
>
> > I guess what is kind of freaking me out is that she had given me no
> > signs that she wanted it for her own. We admire stuff all the time.
> > I don't want to be worried that this is going to happen again the
> > next time we admire something together. I guess I'm wondering how
> > much I can talk to her about this because I have so much fear
> > around her stealing.
>
> She obviously already knows stealing is wrong so that's not the
> problem and more focus on the wrongness won't help. The problem is
> she doesn't know what to do with feelings that won't listen to reason
> and go away ;-)
>
> Talk to her about what she's feeling and come up with some strategies
> she can use. (Taking a picture right then might be helpful.) Assume
> she wants to be honest and trustworthy and just needs some more tools.
>
> I'd bet she thinks her feelings of wanting something that doesn't
> belong to her are unique to her or an indication she's bad. Letting
> her know they're perfectly normal feelings might help a lot.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

JH

I haven't found unschooling folks in my area yet.  I live in middle TN- I know there are bunch of folks in East TN but that is 3 hrs or so east.  I am sure I will find folks at some point. The farm school is about an hour away and I know there are some cool people there- I am on the unschooling list here.  When I started to think about telling her not to "teach" I realized how strange that might be since she knew I was looking for a out of work teacher- I also realized that maybe she is "teaching" not because she wants to but because she thinks that is what I expect.  I am wondering if maybe she thinks she will be graded at the end of our time together and I am going to say something like- "what have you taught my daughter- does she know more as a result of your "teaching""  

I avoid conflict like crazy and sometimes this is good but sometimes bad.  I am going to say something to her today but I just don't want to come off critical or judgmental- I want her to have fun at my house and love my kids.  I really just want her to play with them.  Everyone says I am very laid back with all the nannies and I should be more structured and act more like a boss but I can't and won't.  I try to foster what I want to get back.  I want someone to come into my house and love my kids and play with them- no stress, no worries about cleaning, laundry, teaching, or what I will think- just be with them and be happy.  I have hundreds of things to play with at my house and my daughter is very "self-directed"- you can just follow her around all day and she will create a hundred imaginary worlds and give you a part.

thanks for the thoughts- we will see what happens.

Elly

Elly & Rob
Cleyre (3)
Ruti (11 months)




--- On Thu, 12/17/09, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Nanny/Babysitter
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, December 17, 2009, 6:39 PM







 









-=-Also the nannies you have employed are teachers therefor they want

to teach .. .. .. -=-



I was a teacher because I wanted to be around learning, and to be

there with people who were happy to learn.

There are some teachers "who want to teach" in the way being

described, but there are other ways to approach it.



Still, hiring someone partly because she has teaching credentials and

then asking her not to teach could be baffling to her. <g>



-=-SHe was teaching my daughter that 5 pennies are in a nickel and

kept trying to get her to tell me answers, etc. My daughter did not

care and was not interested.- =-



Maybe you could say "Just play with her and don't 'have lessons,'

please," and see if she lights up about that and smiles, or if she

looks clueless.



If these ladies are nice and they have jobs, it would be a shame not

to keep them on. But if one decides to do something else anyway,

maybe consider an unschooled teen or young adult to help you out. I

don't know where you live but maybe there is an unschooling list and

maybe you could get a babysitter just on a few occasions and see if

someone gels with your kids and think about having her there more

often (or possibly him).



http://sandradodd. com/world



Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Talk to her about what she's feeling and come up with some strategies
she can use. (Taking a picture right then might be helpful.) Assume
she wants to be honest and trustworthy and just needs some more tools.-
=-

Perfect. Photos, and later a drawing or a painting at home from the
photo!

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]