Sandra Dodd

I'm at a good finished-preliminary stage and thought I'd run the table
of contents by people here.

If you don't want to look, that's fine. If you do look, maybe scan to
see if your favorite topic looks to be there. It turned out to be too
big a job to summarize every page, but I could slip a few more in if
I've left out something important. (DOH. It lost its formatting so
you can't tell major topics from sub-topics; sorry.)

Table of Contents

Foreword
........................................................................... xiii

Introduction
.....................................................................
xiv

Part
One
.................................................................................... 1

Unschooling
.................................................................................................................. 2

Cautions
........................................................................................................................... 7

SandraDodd.com/
gradualchange
............................................................. 7

Why Rush to Get
It
?.............................................................................................. 8

Principles and
Priorities
...................................................................................... 9

Comforts
....................................................................................................................... 11

Schooling
..................................................................................................................... 12

Deschooling
................................................................................................................ 13

Who can
Unschool
?............................................................................................... 17

Help
............................................................................................................................. 18

Do
It
............................................................................................................................ 19

Teachers
................................................................................................................... 20

What Teaching Can Never
Be
......................................................................... 21

Dads
.................................................................................................................................. 24

Who Cannot
Unschool
?...................................................................................... 25

Negativity
................................................................................................................ 26

Divorce
...................................................................................................................... 27

Control
...................................................................................................................... 28

Reluctance
.............................................................................................................. 29

Stress
........................................................................................................................... 30

Terminology
.............................................................................................................. 31

John
Holt
.................................................................................................................. 32

Why "radical"
unschooling
?........................................................................ 33

Any
jargon
?............................................................................................................. 34

Beginning to
Unschool
....................................................................................... 35

Stages of
Unschooling
..................................................................................... 36

Where is the edge of
unschooling
?............................................................ 37

Learn Nothing
Day
............................................................................................ 38

Comments on Learn Nothing
Day............................................................ 39

Other kinds of
unschooling
........................................................................... 40

Principles instead of
Rules
.............................................................................. 41

"Just say
No
"........................................................................................................... 44

Proof or
Research
............................................................................................... 46

What about situations with
rules?.......................................................... 47

Exchanging one set of rules for
another............................................... 48

Choices
............................................................................................................................ 50

"Have
To
"................................................................................................................. 52

Self-
regulation
..................................................................................................... 54

Self-control and other
control
................................................................... 55

Infants
........................................................................................................................... 56

"Partners and not
adversaries
".................................................................. 57

Saying Yes to
Infants
........................................................................................ 58

Communicating with
Babies
......................................................................
59

Co-
sleeping
............................................................................................................. 61

Toddlers and young
children
....................................................................... 62

Guests in your home, and in your
life...................................................... 63

Attentive
parenting
........................................................................................... 64

Saying Yes to
Toddlers
..................................................................................... 65

Special
Education
................................................................................................... 67

School's special
needs
...................................................................................... 68

Seeing your child, rather than a
label.................................................... 69

Giftedness
................................................................................................................. 70

Howard
Gardner
................................................................................................... 73

Abraham
Maslow
................................................................................................... 75

Piaget
.............................................................................................................................. 76

Subjects
.......................................................................................................................... 78

History
....................................................................................................................... 79

Geography
............................................................................................................... 80

Science
....................................................................................................................... 81

Music
.......................................................................................................................... 82

Art
................................................................................................................................. 83

Reading
.................................................................................................................... 85

Writing
...................................................................................................................... 94

Language
Arts
...................................................................................................... 97

Shakespeare
........................................................................................................ 102

Mathematics
...................................................................................................... 105

"Methods
".................................................................................................................. 109

Curriculum
........................................................................................................... 110

Learning, not
Teaching
............................................................................... 112

Connections
........................................................................................................ 113

Substance
............................................................................................................. 117

Strewing
................................................................................................................ 120

Experiences
.......................................................................................................... 124

Building an Unschooling
Nest.................................................................
126

Playing
........................................................................................................................ 127

Games
...................................................................................................................... 128

Humor
..................................................................................................................... 129

Typical
Days
............................................................................................................ 130

TV
................................................................................................................................... 137

Economics of Restricting
TV
.....................................................................
138

Gilligan's Island and Star
Trek................................................................ 141

Learning from
Cartoons
.............................................................................. 142

Movies for
Unschoolers
.................................................................................. 145

Books
............................................................................................................................ 149

Book
Worship
.................................................................................................... 150

Reading equated with
"Wisdom".......................................................... 150

Video
Games
............................................................................................................. 152

Educational
Benefits
..................................................................................... 153

Family
Benefits
................................................................................................. 155

Courtesy and
Responsibility
.....................................................................
156

Sleeping
...................................................................................................................... 157

Opportunities
..................................................................................................... 158

Future
jobs
........................................................................................................... 159

Peace
....................................................................................................................... 161

The Purpose of
Sleep
...................................................................................... 162

Food
.............................................................................................................................. 163

The Clock isn't
Hungry
.................................................................................. 164

Not
forcing
........................................................................................................... 164

Not
Limiting
....................................................................................................... 165

How Does it Balance
Out
?.......................................................................... 166

Advantages of Eating in
Peace................................................................
167

The Purpose of Family
Dinner
.................................................................. 168

The Purpose of
Eating
................................................................................... 169

Longterm Problems with Controlling
Food................................... 170

Health Food /
Diets
........................................................................................ 172

Research
................................................................................................................ 172

The Purpose of
Eating
................................................................................... 173

Holidays and
Sugar
........................................................................................ 174

Monkey
Platters
................................................................................................ 175

Chores
.......................................................................................................................... 176

Serving Others as a
Gift
................................................................................. 177

"Necessary?"
No
�............................................................................................. 179

Relationships
..................................................................................................... 179

"It Seems Unfair." "It's
CRAZY."...............................................................
180

Modelling
Joy
..................................................................................................... 181

True Tales of Children
Helping
................................................................ 182

Service
..................................................................................................................... 183

Gratitude
............................................................................................................... 186

Focus, Obsessions,
Hobbies
............................................................................. 187

Barbie
..................................................................................................................... 188

Feed
Passions
..................................................................................................... 189

Judging
Interests
.............................................................................................. 190

Priorities
................................................................................................................... 191

Personal
Change
.................................................................................................. 193

Happiness
............................................................................................................. 194

Becoming the Parent you Want to
Be................................................ 195

Abundance
........................................................................................................... 196

Phrases to
avoid
............................................................................................... 197

Words
...................................................................................................................... 198

No more bad
days
............................................................................................ 199

Mindfulness
............................................................................................................. 200

Being
....................................................................................................................... 202

Gratitude
............................................................................................................... 205

Breathing
............................................................................................................. 206

Flow
......................................................................................................................... 208

Tone
......................................................................................................................... 210

Parenting
Peacefully
...................................................................................... 211

Noisy
peace
.......................................................................................................... 212

Boredom
............................................................................................................... 218

Bribery
.................................................................................................................... 219

Coercion
................................................................................................................ 220

Freedom
................................................................................................................ 221

Respect
................................................................................................................... 222

Myths too many Parents
Believe............................................................ 223

Empowerment
................................................................................................... 225

Online
Safety
....................................................................................................... 227

When Siblings
Fight
....................................................................................... 228

Guns
.......................................................................................................................... 231

Violence
................................................................................................................. 232

Spanking
............................................................................................................... 234

The Effects of
Spanking
................................................................................ 235

Other
punishments
?....................................................................................... 236

Clarity
........................................................................................................................ 237

If I let
him
�......................................................................................................... 238

Truth/Honesty/
Lies
....................................................................................... 244

Fact/fallacy/
opinion
.................................................................................... 245

Regrets
................................................................................................................... 247

Sex
Education
......................................................................................................... 252

Teenagers
................................................................................................................. 253

Saying Yes to
Teens
......................................................................................... 254

Driver's
education
........................................................................................... 255

Rebellion
............................................................................................................... 257

How are they as
people
?.............................................................................. 259

Jobs
........................................................................................................................... 261

College
.................................................................................................................... 263

Interesting Alternatives to
College....................................................... 265

Young
Adults
.......................................................................................................... 266

Partners
................................................................................................................. 267

Saying Yes to grown
children
................................................................... 269

Changes in the
parents
..................................................................................... 270

Unexpected
outcomes
........................................................................................ 271

Spouses
................................................................................................................... 272

Healing
................................................................................................................... 273

Patience
................................................................................................................. 274

Joy
.............................................................................................................................. 277

Values
...................................................................................................................... 278

Pets
........................................................................................................................... 279

Trees and
Plants
............................................................................................... 280

Wonder
.................................................................................................................. 281

Honoring other
voices
..................................................................................... 282

Joyce
Fetteroll
.................................................................................................... 282

Pam
Sorooshian
............................................................................................... 282

Schuyler
Waynforth
....................................................................................... 283

Deb
Lewis
.............................................................................................................. 283

Ren
Allen
............................................................................................................... 284

Robyn
Coburn
.................................................................................................... 284

Jenny
Cyphers
..................................................................................................... 284

Kelly
Lovejoy
...................................................................................................... 285

Mary
Gold
............................................................................................................. 285

Danielle
Conger
................................................................................................ 285

Criticisms of
Unschooling
.............................................................................. 286

Humanism
............................................................................................................ 287

Anarchy
.................................................................................................................. 288

"It's hedonism gone
berserk
!!"................................................................. 289

Arrogance
............................................................................................................. 290

"Karma
"................................................................................................................. 293

Part
Two
............................................................................ 294

Essays
............................................................................................................................ 295

Precisely How to
Unschool
......................................................................... 295

To Get More
Jokes
............................................................................................. 298

To Be Fascinating at Cocktail
Parties................................................ 301

A Mom's-Eye View of Driver's
Ed............................................................ 303

Magic
Window
.................................................................................................. 308

Quotes
.......................................................................................................................... 311

Other
Resources
................................................................................................... 327

Thinking
Sticks
.................................................................................................. 328

Chats
........................................................................................................................ 330

Sound
Files
........................................................................................................... 331

Video
........................................................................................................................ 331

Blogs
........................................................................................................................ 332

Conferences
......................................................................................................... 333

Justifications for Being
Online
................................................................. 334

Always
Learning
............................................................................................... 335

Websites
................................................................................................................ 337

About the Dodd Family's
Unschooling.............................................. 338

About the author







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brad Holcomb

The Essays section (p. 295) looks interesting. Are versions of these on
your site, or is this section new writing? -=b.

Katy Jennings

My favorite topic is "have to." I found it on my second scan of the Contents. I can't wait!

Katy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=The Essays section (p. 295) looks interesting. Are versions of these
on
your site, or is this section new writing? -=b.-=-

Mostly it's things that were in the Connections e-zine.

These and some:
http://sandradodd.com/driversed
but not with all those photos


http://sandradodd.com/connections/jokes

http://sandradodd.com/connections/cocktail

and a couple more like that.

The new writing is all in the main part of the book.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Canfield

Wow, at a glance, it looks like you've covered everything ever discussed on
your unschooling lists and more. I've already ordered one book. Now I
might order that 2nd copy - one to keep and one to share!
-Jenny Canfield

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> I'm at a good finished-preliminary stage and thought I'd run the table
> of contents by people here.
>
> If you don't want to look, that's fine. If you do look, maybe scan to
> see if your favorite topic looks to be there. It turned out to be too
> big a job to summarize every page, but I could slip a few more in if
> I've left out something important. (DOH. It lost its formatting so
> you can't tell major topics from sub-topics; sorry.)
>
> Table of Contents
> ......
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marina DeLuca-Howard

Looks good.

Just a thought I had while looking at your table of contents: for years I
resisted the label unschooler. I liked calling it experience based
learning, child led learning, enquiry based learning, natural
learning,...after all "unschooling" sounded like it had its own curriculum
or expectations! Certainly, lots of perscription around it and lots of
ideas of what freedom, joy, love and family look like.

I also didn't call myself a vegetarian, I just told people I don't eat
meat. It occurs to me I begrudgingly accept labels and I wonder if most
people do. I don't know if this is something you explore in the chapters
and it isn't a well-developed notion, but as long as you are writing a book
I thought I'd through it out there :) Mainly because I suppose once one
accepts a label expectations come with it and it is much easier on a case by
case basis to be an individual and make your own decisions rather than be in
a compartment of sorts. Anyway in all my readings this always sits in the
back of my mind. In La Leche League there was always the disclaimer, "Take
what you want and leave the rest".

Don't know if this is helpful feedback or not,
Marina
--
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

0-I also didn't call myself a vegetarian, I just told people I don't eat
meat. It occurs to me I begrudgingly accept labels and I wonder if most
people do. I don't know if this is something you explore in the chapters
and it isn't a well-developed notion, but as long as you are writing a
book
I thought I'd through it out there :) Mainly because I suppose once one
accepts a label expectations come with it and it is much easier on a
case by
case basis to be an individual and make your own decisions rather than
be in
a compartment of sorts. Anyway in all my readings this always sits in
the
back of my mind. In La Leche League there was always the disclaimer,
"Take
what you want and leave the rest".-=-

I guess that will need to be in your book. <g>

I didn't hear "Take what you want and leave the rest" at La Leche
League, myself. I heard it at al-Anon meetings. <g>

I don't guess I understand the begrudging acceptance of labels.
Everything is case by case.

Sorry. If you want to talk about that here as a topic, though, I'd be
willing.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marina DeLuca-Howard

I am sure there are lots more books in your future<bwg> and maybe this will
find its way into the next one. Alas, I don't really have a clear idea just
some niggling doubts. I just notice how people love "orthodoxy" and seem to
try to put square pegs in round holes. This has something to do with the
flurry of NVC discussions, the safety v. freedom (freedom from injury or to
keep exploring?) and you know...recently we have all engaged in.

Well, I don't accept labels, or perscription--which is why any system that
demands I adhere to it as "gospel truth" makes me run. The first few
unschoolers I met just seemed oblivious to their children's needs--seemed
some sort of 'tough love" in action or something other than stemming from
attachment parenting.

What you think about all of the recent discussion--is it just that people
accept one definition of freedom as absolute or just misunderstand
parameters around parenting or is it me trying to define things that are
blurry/etheral. Really I take life case by case...so I find when people
try to turn unschooling principles into hard and fast rules confusing. It
seems that germinates many discussions.

Marina

Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>
> Just a thought I had while looking at your table of contents: for
years I
> resisted the label unschooler. I liked calling it experience based
> learning, child led learning, enquiry based learning, natural
> learning,...after all "unschooling" sounded like it had its own
curriculum
> or expectations! Certainly, lots of perscription around it and lots of
> ideas of what freedom, joy, love and family look like.
>


This is all part of defining the term "unschooling". Sandra has a few
pages on her site on this idea. I'd be surprised if she didn't address
this in her book, either in the area that tells what unschooling is, or
in the jargon area, or both. Since Sandra is very much about words and
meanings, well, it would stand to reason that this would be in her book.

Here's where she talks a bit about it on her site
<http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition.html> . There are links
from there that go further. This <http://sandradodd.com/teaching/>
may be relevant also.

I imagine that there are folks that come to unschooling expecting there
to be rules, not unlike using a curriculum. Not everyone does though!
It does illuminate our own thinking when we come at something from a
certain angle and realize that we have to get to the other side of the
sphere that didn't even have an angle to begin with.

Around the world, people use different phrasing for homeschooling and
unschooling. What works in the US doesn't even always apply to the UK
or Australia, even though they are all english speaking countries.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

> Well, I don't accept labels, or perscription--which is why any system
that
> demands I adhere to it as "gospel truth" makes me run.

When people meet me, I'm sure they place a label on me, that fits their
frame of reference of how to categorize me in some way, shape, or form.
I imagine that there is an element of truth and reality in each of those
labels or descriptions of me as a person, but each one doesn't wholly
define me as a person. I'm just me...haha!

The first few
> unschoolers I met just seemed oblivious to their children's
needs--seemed
> some sort of 'tough love" in action or something other than stemming
from
> attachment parenting.


I didn't come to unschooling from attatchment parenting at all! I came
to unschooling through a huge disenchantment of the public school system
in which kids are numbers with dollar signs attatched. I've had to do a
lot of thought shifting in regards to my utter dislike of school, since
it's way better to run towards something amazing than away from
something yucky! There are lots of people who do come to usnchooling
through attatchment parenting. There are lots of attatchment parenting
folks that send their kids to school also.

Sandra Dodd

-=-
Around the world, people use different phrasing for homeschooling and
unschooling. What works in the US doesn't even always apply to the UK
or Australia, even though they are all english speaking countries.-=-

What "works" as to phrasing doesn't always apply, but what works as to
learning isn't going to change from country to country. How could it?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Murphy

> What you think about all of the recent discussion--is it just that people
> accept one definition of freedom as absolute or just misunderstand
> parameters around parenting or is it me trying to define things that are
> blurry/etheral. Really I take life case by case...so I find when people
> try to turn unschooling principles into hard and fast rules confusing. It
> seems that germinates many discussions.
>
> Marina

I think the difficulty is that unschooling describes a relationship, not a practice. And the relationship is different between each parent and child.

There are a list of things that can help unschooling, but they aren't unschooling. You can follow the whole list and be closer to unschooling, but not actually doing it. There is, similarly, a list of things that can move you further/farther (I can never remember which one!) away from unschooling, but they also may not preclude unschooling. It's not that there are hard and fast rules--there are principles that can be like a road map to help people find and unschooling relationship.

Joanna

Deborah

**It occurs to me I begrudgingly accept labels and I wonder if most people do.**

Over all these years online on email lists and discussion boards and all the myriad ways we've worked at communicating with each other, it has seemed to me that most people are earnestly in search of the very best most desirable labels to stick on themselves. For reasons I don't even pretend to understand, there have been multitudes of people who really seem to need to call themselves unschoolers, who have assured us that unschooling can be just whatever, and that if someone calls what they're doing unschooling then it is unschooling.

I don't think anyone's ever insisted that someone call themselves an unschooler, so I don't understand why someone would have to "begrudgingly accept" it as a label.

But I often get confused around here. ::shrug::

Deborah in IL

Joanna Murphy

For reasons I don't even pretend to understand, there have been multitudes of people who really seem to need to call themselves unschoolers, who have assured us that unschooling can be just whatever, and that if someone calls what they're doing unschooling then it is unschooling.
>

Yeah right, what is that about?? I've run across a similar thing locally--people who will insist that they are unschooling, and then in the same breath say that they equally value Classical Education and Waldorf. I kind of think maybe they like the idea of their child happily choosing those things, and that feels like unschooling to them. I don't know...

Joanna

Deborah

**For reasons I don't even pretend to understand, there have been multitudes of people who really seem to need to call themselves unschoolers, who have assured us that unschooling can be just whatever, and that if someone calls what they're doing unschooling then it is unschooling.**

I feel compelled to add - I only care what people call themselves because it is NEVER a quiet person just going about their own life labeling whatever they do unschooling. (Heck, they're probably out there, but since they're quietly going about their lives...)

I care when people tell others they know that unschooling doesn't work because they tried it for a month and their kids went wild and nobody learned to read. I care when one of the leaders of a local group assures every new member that unschooling doesn't work because her kids never did a single bit of school work when she unschooled. I care because it's hard enough to communicate well, to understand each other, when we all agree on what we're talking about. Humpty Dumpty can make words mean whatever he wants, but the rest of us probably shouldn't.

Deborah in IL

Sandra Dodd

-= I care when one of the leaders of a local group assures every new
member that unschooling doesn't work because her kids never did a
single bit of school work when she unschooled-=-

Oh, that's a good one. But if she's a group leader, she must know
what she's talking about...

<g>

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 8/14/2009 10:58 AM, Deborah wrote:
> med to me that most people are earnestly in search of the very best most desirable labels to stick on themselves. For reasons I don't even pretend to understand, there have been multitudes of people who really seem to need to call themselves unschoolers, who have assured us that unschooling can be just whatever, and that if someone calls what they're doing unschooling then it is unschooling.
>

And, also, multitudes of people who are offended when it is pointed out
that some aspect of what they are doing is NOT in sync with unschooling
principles and they go storming off feeling like people have accused
them of NOT being unschoolers - like they weren't let into the club.

-pam

Marina DeLuca-Howard

Deborah wrote:
>>I don't think anyone's ever insisted that someone call themselves an
unschooler, so I don't >>understand why someone would have to "begrudgingly
accept" it as a label.
>>But I often get confused around here. ::shrug::

Pam said:
>>>And, also, multitudes of people who are offended when it is pointed out
>>>that some aspect of what they are doing is NOT in sync with unschooling
>>>principles and they go storming off feeling like people have accused
>>>them of NOT being unschoolers - like they weren't let into the club.
Well, we are all on an *unschooling* list--so the assumption is one is
unschooling. I imagine anyone advocating Waldorf would draw ire from Sandra
for hijacking the list <bwg>.

But I if I can draw a parallel with another label I think I can explain
better. Once upon a time a vegetarian, self-proclaimed vegan no less, offer
me corn soup with pork in it. It was at a Native POW WOW and she didn't
seem to see why when I choose to to stop eating meat it was universal--in
this case she felt she could make acceptations as Natives are an "oppressed
group" or some vague reasons that to me seemed unconnected to her choice to
call herself vegan. I assumed she never ate meat because she introduced
herself as a vegan and that is what that means. We had discussed why I
wasn't a vegan--I eventually got the B12 deficiency that vegans are famous
for getting, unless they take supplements. I researched the heck out of
it--looked at cultures with no dairy, but fish, and The Farm where they take
supplements. The Pork Eating Vegan offered herself as proof one could be a
vegan without this B12 thing and since she self-identified I took her at
face value. When I saw her eat meat I realized what I'd read applied, as
you only need eat meat a few times a year to avoid the deficiency.

Its the same thing with me feeling exasperated when someone identifies me as
an unschooler, specifically offering to bond on this mutual journey, but
then seems to be undermining it. I co-own a list with my sil called
torontoUNSCHOOLINGassociation and there was a lively debate on whether tv
should be allowed or not. We don't moderate the list so it got a bit ugly
with people throwing NVC around and everything :)

When we were kicking names around for the list my niece suggested Fun
Outside is Learning (foil). I liked the idea as a foil is a sword, a a thin
layer of polished metal placed under a displayed gem, to obscure or confuse
(a trail or scent) to evade pursuit. In the end it became an unschooling
association because otherwise how would people find us? I started tUNa by
accident playing with yahoo and within an hour I had a new member--who had
obviously searched *local unschooling group* and then joined! I created
FOIL and disbanded it--obviously nobody did a search on fun learning!
Labels are a shorthand--but a way to pigeonhole people, too. I am forever
drawing ire from conservatives and liberals alike--being accused of being
some sort of communist by conservatives and a Fascist by liberals. But
really they lose by putting themselves into a box, instead of evaluating all
information as it comes case by case.

For some a label is a trap--like do we let our children risk their lives or
our lives at the top of the Grand Canyon because we believe in freedom as
unschoolers. Relaxed boundaries or different boundaries is not the same as
no boundaries--expressed respectfully and with compassion. Life and death
or serious accident curtails freedom--but the unschoolers who say they are
taking a break from life learning by forcing their child to learn to read at
age seven or some arbitrary age are confusing the heck out of me. So
normally I don't self-identify as an unschooler--I say we are doing
experience based learning or curriculumless learning or child-led learning
or enquiry based learning loosely based on the Socratic method. Since
people don't know what I am talking about I can quietly keep doing what I am
doing as their eyes glaze over <bwg>

Marina

2009/8/14 Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>

>
>
>
>
> On 8/14/2009 10:58 AM, Deborah wrote:
> > med to me that most people are earnestly in search of the very best most
> desirable labels to stick on themselves. For reasons I don't even pretend to
> understand, there have been multitudes of people who really seem to need to
> call themselves unschoolers, who have assured us that unschooling can be
> just whatever, and that if someone calls what they're doing unschooling then
> it is unschooling.
> >
>
>
> -pam
>
>
>



--
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Its the same thing with me feeling exasperated when someone
identifies me as
an unschooler, specifically offering to bond on this mutual journey, but
then seems to be undermining it. -=-

When you said "undermining," though did you mean undermining your
unschooling? I think people who talk to unschooled kids and say they
really should go to school because they're missing out on a lot are
undermining unschooling.

Did you mean undermining the bonding/friendship?
Or undermine the mutuality of the journey?

I think in the example you gave, they were undermining the peace of
your discussion list, and the direction you had hoped it would take.

All the criticism I've had over the years never affected my
unschooling. It only affected the peace of my list (or a folder or
forum or whatever). And sometimes the worst firestorms end up
creating the most light, for bystanders.

-=-For some a label is a trap--like do we let our children risk their
lives or
our lives at the top of the Grand Canyon because we believe in freedom
as
unschoolers. Relaxed boundaries or different boundaries is not the
same as
no boundaries--expressed respectfully and with compassion.-=-

For some people, a label might be a danger, then. But it won't be the
label's fault. It will (I think, if I understand your example) be the
fault of the person who believed that becoming an unschooler only
involved saying "Okay! I'll be an unschooler! Now what?" and smiling
around at their "new friends."

Discussing unschooling is a mutual thing, but unschooling is between
the parents and the children. The discussions are intended to help
people figure out how to unschool, at home when nobody's looking. And
in with that, they should be figuring out on their own whether having
their kid in a tree is a good idea. And there can't be one rule for
all trees at all times. It should depend on the child's ability, the
ownership and location of the tree, what he's wearing, what kind of
tree it is, whether you need to be somewhere soon, whether it would be
a bad idea because younger, more impetuous kids are watching and might
follow and be hurt, or stuck up there. For me, at 5'4" and sometimes
pregnant, when my boys were first tree-climbing, sometimes I wanted
them to wait until their dad or some other taller, stronger ally was
there to help them down if they needed it.

I climbed a spruce tree once in a Brownie uniform. It was all fine on
the way up, but on the way down, the skirt was catching on all those
up-pointing twigs so it took a long time to get down and I had a
growing audience of people advising me, and looking at my panties.
That adds to my checklist of what to consider when a kid asks me
whether I mind him climbing a tree. Rescuing a cat is more noble than
going up there to throw sycamore balls at pedestrians.

So the discussions around unschooling are good for helping people
figure out how they will live by principles. Some people don't want
to learn, ironically, so much as they want a sense of belonging and an
excuse to reject the old rules they had.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marina DeLuca-Howard

> think in the example you gave, they were undermining the peace of
>your discussion list, and the direction you had hoped it would take.

My sil, who is a co-owner of the list thought we should moderate the
list--but it grew really quickly and I liked the idea of people
self-moderating. I just think I wouldn't be able to check emails often
enough and because she has a Blackberry she would end up doing most of the
work--though I never asked her if she minded that<bwg>.

Sandra wrote:
>All the criticism I've had over the years never affected my
>unschooling. It only affected the peace of my list (or a folder or
>forum or whatever).

You're words made me stop to reconsider what I was thinking, and none of
these people were in my house changing my relationship with my kids or
really doing anything but frustrating me wit their inconsistencies <ironic
stage sigh>, and I am a big girl, so I can deal with that!

Sandra wrote:
>When you said "undermining," though did you mean undermining your
>unschooling?

I suppose just creating a misunderstanding about the mutuality of our
jpurney. I tend to be vague about our "home" based education curriculum
unless pressed by someone who mentions they are lifelearning/unschooling.
It is like the vegan example--some people chose a label, whether or not it
applies. Maybe I just like clarity in language.

The two big issues are television and food with lots of parents I know. I
don't see as much danger in the world. I think that television and computer
usage can be beneficial--shielding children in an alternate universe using
subterfuge irks me. Ultimately, the message to the child is it is okay to
lie or restrict communication/honesty. So I don't do it-not with my kids,
nor guests in our home. I just don't want to be a party to that kind of
manipulation. I warn parents if they stay for the playdate they have to
enforce their own rules. I encourage my children to consider that a certain
child has restrictions and that if they want the visits to continue they may
want to play outside or find a non-computer game to play or watch a dvd that
child or his/her parent brings over, instead of telelvision. But it is a
choice.

I will serve snacks according to the parent's preference, though because
that is easier than following kids though my house informing them that I
will be setting a timer to enforce their half hour limit on the wii or
forcing certain activities on them.

>So the discussions around unschooling are good for helping people
>figure out how they will live by principles. Some people don't want
>to learn, ironically, so much as they want a sense of belonging and an
>excuse to reject the old rules they had.

I never looked at this way before. That makes a lot of sense. I cetainly
gain a lot from discussion, so I assume other people do as well.
Marina


--
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=My sil, who is a co-owner of the list thought we should moderate the
list--but it grew really quickly and I liked the idea of people
self-moderating. I just think I wouldn't be able to check emails often
enough and because she has a Blackberry she would end up doing most of
the
work--though I never asked her if she minded that<bwg>.-=-

I've been on moderated and unmoderated lists. The frustration or
problem of waiting for a post to be approved has never been nearly as
bad as the waste of time and irritation caused by bullshit and spam.

I've known some people to decide on unmoderated because they kind of
liked drama and interpersonal strife, or because they didn't seem to
have the social discernment God gave a donut.

Some people, as you did, want to prove that humans can be responsible
and make decisions that are beneficial to others. Most people can.
It only takes one or two to insist that they have the right to write
whatever they want, as often as they want, to ruin the list for others.

I think of it as a party, as a simple analogy. What do people need to
have fun at a party? "Unlimited liquor" isn't the answer, except for
a few. "Gourmet food" isn't the answer, except for a few. But if
the hostess has an idea of what she wants to organized, she should say
so. A clear list description will keep her from getting one guy in a
nice suit expecting a sit-down dinner with business associates, and
another guy in a toga with a keg. Neither of those guys is going to
have much fun. Or maybe one will have selfish fun and the other will
feel he wasted his time/money/evening.

If the beliefs of the list owner are kept secret, that seems
dishonest. I wouldn't want to see my Mormon friends show up at a sex
party without knowing in advance. I saw my alcoholic mom go to the
Baptist-side-of-family reunions yearly, as a kid; at least she knew in
advance here wouldn't be a single beer anywhere on the site.

The list description is a kind of contract with those who join.
People who want a longterm discussion sometimes don't last long on
unmoderated lists. I can take 'em or leave 'em, but often I leave 'em
after a while.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

You don't have to moderate every post - just set it up so that people
are on moderate when they join, automatically, and then remove them from
moderation as they post okay stuff. If someone is problematic, just
never remove them from moderation. It doesn't take that much time to go
through and take people OFF moderation. Setting it so that new people
are automatically moderated prevents spam, too.

-pam

On 8/18/2009 6:20 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=My sil, who is a co-owner of the list thought we should moderate the
> list--but it grew really quickly and I liked the idea of people
> self-moderating. I just think I wouldn't be able to check emails often
> enough and because she has a Blackberry she would end up doing most of
> the
> work--though I never asked her if she minded that<bwg>.-=-
>
>