Are we deschooling?
shepherdlass
I know that deschooling has been mentioned quite a bit over the last few days. And I gather that the principle is to deschool ourselves as parents as much (or more) than deschooling our children.
What I'd like to ask is how this process combines with ongoing (semi-)structured activity that enables a child to pursue their own passions.
The last few days have been very interesting in this respect. Certainly, Jess spends a lot more time on WoW/Sims/reading manga than ever. But on Thursday, Jess and I went along to a home educators' art workshop at a local art gallery. When we got there we realized it was a fairly heavily structured mask-making activity. Jess had done this at school ... several times! So we left shortly after the session started and instead went shopping for manga books and some nice new pencils for Jess's own manga drawings. I hope my suggestion that we take a look at the art workshop was in the spirit of 'strewing' ... and at least the confidence with which I said "Yes" when she asked to leave feels like a sign of a small change in my thinking.
On Friday, we went to one of the local home ed groups that Jess has keenly wanted to become involved with: a creative writing workshop with a local author. Although the session did seem fairly structured, Jess adored it - it helped her unlock some techniques to build a fantasy world that her characters can live in. Almost immediately after the session, she voluntarily wrote some quite detailed background to this fascinating world and shared it with the online writing group.
We've since had a weekend that responds to her love of baroque recorder, going to hear the fabulous, iconoclastic group, Red Priest ( http://www.piersadams.com/RedPriest/index.html ), and then taking her to play in a recorder orchestra concert. Watching her smiling face, both while she listened to others and while she was playing, brought home to me how intensely she engages with this music. Developing in the way she wants and at the speed she wants really does seem to entail her attending specialist lessons.
Which brings me back to my query: when deschooling is mentioned, I feel like it's supposed to be a full-scale sabbatical from all things deliberately educational. Do I have this wrong? Can deschooling effectively happen so long as the few consciously educational activities that a child is following are in pursuit of their most passionate interests, and so long as there's a willingness to discard any activities that pall?
Jude x
What I'd like to ask is how this process combines with ongoing (semi-)structured activity that enables a child to pursue their own passions.
The last few days have been very interesting in this respect. Certainly, Jess spends a lot more time on WoW/Sims/reading manga than ever. But on Thursday, Jess and I went along to a home educators' art workshop at a local art gallery. When we got there we realized it was a fairly heavily structured mask-making activity. Jess had done this at school ... several times! So we left shortly after the session started and instead went shopping for manga books and some nice new pencils for Jess's own manga drawings. I hope my suggestion that we take a look at the art workshop was in the spirit of 'strewing' ... and at least the confidence with which I said "Yes" when she asked to leave feels like a sign of a small change in my thinking.
On Friday, we went to one of the local home ed groups that Jess has keenly wanted to become involved with: a creative writing workshop with a local author. Although the session did seem fairly structured, Jess adored it - it helped her unlock some techniques to build a fantasy world that her characters can live in. Almost immediately after the session, she voluntarily wrote some quite detailed background to this fascinating world and shared it with the online writing group.
We've since had a weekend that responds to her love of baroque recorder, going to hear the fabulous, iconoclastic group, Red Priest ( http://www.piersadams.com/RedPriest/index.html ), and then taking her to play in a recorder orchestra concert. Watching her smiling face, both while she listened to others and while she was playing, brought home to me how intensely she engages with this music. Developing in the way she wants and at the speed she wants really does seem to entail her attending specialist lessons.
Which brings me back to my query: when deschooling is mentioned, I feel like it's supposed to be a full-scale sabbatical from all things deliberately educational. Do I have this wrong? Can deschooling effectively happen so long as the few consciously educational activities that a child is following are in pursuit of their most passionate interests, and so long as there's a willingness to discard any activities that pall?
Jude x
Sandra Dodd
-=-I know that deschooling has been mentioned quite a bit over the
last few days. And I gather that the principle is to deschool
ourselves as parents as much (or more) than deschooling our children. -
=-
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
This is important. Unschooling will never take without it.
-=-What I'd like to ask is how this process combines with ongoing
(semi-)structured activity that enables a child to pursue their own
passions. -=-
It depends on how structured, who chose it, and maybe who's driving
and what is said in the car.
That process doesn't combine with anything, though. It is possible
to continue activities like dance classes or park days without it
being a problem. It is possible for it to totally put the brakes on
it, because it's not the what so much as the why and how.
-=-We've since had a weekend that responds to her love of baroque
recorder, going to hear the fabulous, iconoclastic group, Red Priest ( http://www.piersadams.com/RedPriest/index.html
), and then taking her to play in a recorder orchestra concert.
Watching her smiling face, both while she listened to others and while
she was playing, brought home to me how intensely she engages with
this music. Developing in the way she wants and at the speed she wants
really does seem to entail her attending specialist lessons. -=-
If it's something she wants and it's not pressure or requirement or
guilt-fed, I don't see a problem. If adults around her give her
messages indicating that at least she has one worthy pursuit, or that
maybe she can find a career in music, you might want to interject that
she's doing it for fun, and smile.
-=-Which brings me back to my query: when deschooling is mentioned, I
feel like it's supposed to be a full-scale sabbatical from all things
deliberately educational. -=- For the parent, especially, it should
be a firebreak between the past life and the future--an effort to
cleanse one's thinking of ideas like what's "educational." If you can
hear the words you use aloud, at first, and then the phrases you
think, you can see all the ways in which you (because of schooling,
because of the cultural norms and expectations) have divided the world
and categorized objects and activities into "educational" and "just
for fun" (or whatever phrases come to you as you consider this).
-=-Can deschooling effectively happen so long as the few consciously
educational activities that a child is following are in pursuit of
their most passionate interests, and so long as there's a willingness
to discard any activities that pall?-=-
The language of the question is stiff. If you save it and look back
on it after two or three years of unschooling, you'll know what I
mean. All its edges seem solid. It's filled with dichotomy and
dualistic walls and barriers.
If those ideas can become transparent, wispy, airy, the questions will
disappear.
If you begin to make decisions based on what provides joy and
learning, rather than what is educational or irritating, the very same
world will look very different. You won't need to "discard
activities" if you see them for what they are rather than what they
were advertised to be.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
last few days. And I gather that the principle is to deschool
ourselves as parents as much (or more) than deschooling our children. -
=-
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
This is important. Unschooling will never take without it.
-=-What I'd like to ask is how this process combines with ongoing
(semi-)structured activity that enables a child to pursue their own
passions. -=-
It depends on how structured, who chose it, and maybe who's driving
and what is said in the car.
That process doesn't combine with anything, though. It is possible
to continue activities like dance classes or park days without it
being a problem. It is possible for it to totally put the brakes on
it, because it's not the what so much as the why and how.
-=-We've since had a weekend that responds to her love of baroque
recorder, going to hear the fabulous, iconoclastic group, Red Priest ( http://www.piersadams.com/RedPriest/index.html
), and then taking her to play in a recorder orchestra concert.
Watching her smiling face, both while she listened to others and while
she was playing, brought home to me how intensely she engages with
this music. Developing in the way she wants and at the speed she wants
really does seem to entail her attending specialist lessons. -=-
If it's something she wants and it's not pressure or requirement or
guilt-fed, I don't see a problem. If adults around her give her
messages indicating that at least she has one worthy pursuit, or that
maybe she can find a career in music, you might want to interject that
she's doing it for fun, and smile.
-=-Which brings me back to my query: when deschooling is mentioned, I
feel like it's supposed to be a full-scale sabbatical from all things
deliberately educational. -=- For the parent, especially, it should
be a firebreak between the past life and the future--an effort to
cleanse one's thinking of ideas like what's "educational." If you can
hear the words you use aloud, at first, and then the phrases you
think, you can see all the ways in which you (because of schooling,
because of the cultural norms and expectations) have divided the world
and categorized objects and activities into "educational" and "just
for fun" (or whatever phrases come to you as you consider this).
-=-Can deschooling effectively happen so long as the few consciously
educational activities that a child is following are in pursuit of
their most passionate interests, and so long as there's a willingness
to discard any activities that pall?-=-
The language of the question is stiff. If you save it and look back
on it after two or three years of unschooling, you'll know what I
mean. All its edges seem solid. It's filled with dichotomy and
dualistic walls and barriers.
If those ideas can become transparent, wispy, airy, the questions will
disappear.
If you begin to make decisions based on what provides joy and
learning, rather than what is educational or irritating, the very same
world will look very different. You won't need to "discard
activities" if you see them for what they are rather than what they
were advertised to be.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>>> Which brings me back to my query: when deschooling is mentioned, Ifeel like it's supposed to be a full-scale sabbatical from all things
deliberately educational. Do I have this wrong? Can deschooling
effectively happen so long as the few consciously educational activities
that a child is following are in pursuit of their most passionate
interests, and so long as there's a willingness to discard any
activities that pall?>>>
It's about choice. If your child really is choosing these activities
free to stop or change course, then your on the right path.
One of the really big things that I've seen from unschoolers, is knowing
how to learn, that learning and teaching aren't the same thing. One can
choose to take a class to learn something and indeed learn a great deal,
but the learning is about the learner, more than it is about the teacher
imparting wisdom.
Classes can be used as a crutch to real learning. Classes can be
extremely eye opening and world expanding. It really depends on how the
person taking the class is experiencing the class. Knowing without a
doubt that classes and educational activities are tools, one of but many
different tools to learning things, will help to see it within the
context of deschooling and real life learning.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Knowing without a
doubt that classes and educational activities are tools, one of but many
different tools to learning things, will help to see it within the
context of deschooling and real life learning.-=-
Anyone who doesn't understand that statement probably should take a
sabbatical from all class-like situations for six months or more.
Kelly Lovejoy touched on that in her stages of unschooling article.
http://sandradodd.com/stages/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
doubt that classes and educational activities are tools, one of but many
different tools to learning things, will help to see it within the
context of deschooling and real life learning.-=-
Anyone who doesn't understand that statement probably should take a
sabbatical from all class-like situations for six months or more.
Kelly Lovejoy touched on that in her stages of unschooling article.
http://sandradodd.com/stages/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
I'd add - if their kid has an interest and the parents first response is
to think of "taking a class" - then they should challenge themselves to
think of a half-dozen other ways that they could follow up on that
interest. And, "get a book on it," can't be the only other option. And
one of the options might be being willing to listen to the kid talk
about it.
-pam
to think of "taking a class" - then they should challenge themselves to
think of a half-dozen other ways that they could follow up on that
interest. And, "get a book on it," can't be the only other option. And
one of the options might be being willing to listen to the kid talk
about it.
-pam
On 4/26/2009 12:08 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-Knowing without a
> doubt that classes and educational activities are tools, one of but many
> different tools to learning things, will help to see it within the
> context of deschooling and real life learning.-=-
>
> Anyone who doesn't understand that statement probably should take a
> sabbatical from all class-like situations for six months or more.
>
>
[email protected]
Thaks to you all for your advice on this. I'll do my best to take it on
board. Sandra's comment about the dialectical way I was pitching one way of
thinking against another felt absolutely spot on - I just hope it
gradually becomes easier to go with the flow and not see things as stark opposites.
I would like to clarify the situation regarding "classes". The workshops
I was referring to were things that Jess said she wanted to attend because
her friends would be there and she wanted to spend some time with them.
Some live quite far away from us and these were perhaps the only mutually
convenient venues and dates for a few weeks. I knew that the actual content
of one workshop would suit her (her words: she "couldn't wait to do creative
writing with a real author!") and that the other might not, but it wasn't
really a question of offering to take her to "a class". Rather than being
about 'educating' her, it was a chance to get out and about among people
she likes. When she wasn't enjoying the more "schooly" session and we
realized she didn't have much chance to socialize there either, we came away.
As for the one-to-one music lessons... we talk a lot about music, we can
appreciate lots of things together and she can share her enthusiasms with
me. But, when it comes to developing the baroque ornamentation,
articulation and use of vibrato (and suchlike) that she personally and of her own
choice, wants to master, then it's nice for her to get to this by playing her
music to an interested expert observer who can then give her constructive
feedback and share their understanding of what is a very specific technique.
We could (and do) look this stuff up together, and we certainly enjoy
listening to it together ... but she doesn't like playing it with me, as I'm
too grounded in other styles, and it's great for her to spend time with
people who've done it for real. I know that Sandra and a couple of others were
asking if this interest is Jess's rather than something driven by a desire
to please the adults around her. I think it is. She does it out of
fascination and fun and because the music moves her. She does feel "clever"
when she gets something new, but not in a "top of the class" competitive kind
of way. Certainly, she doesn't feel - and is not made to feel - that she
should do music because it's a potential profession (probably the opposite,
because she's seen what it's like to have 2 out of work musos as parents!).
But she likes to figure this stuff out, and she has eventually (by
process of elimination) found a couple of inspirational adult mentors who help
her to do this at her own pace and to suit her own style. Which was where my
query came from - if she's taking a holiday in order to deschool, what do
we do about music, which is a major holiday activity for her?
Sorry, this is another long post, but it does feel like the devil's in the
detail.
Jude x
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
board. Sandra's comment about the dialectical way I was pitching one way of
thinking against another felt absolutely spot on - I just hope it
gradually becomes easier to go with the flow and not see things as stark opposites.
I would like to clarify the situation regarding "classes". The workshops
I was referring to were things that Jess said she wanted to attend because
her friends would be there and she wanted to spend some time with them.
Some live quite far away from us and these were perhaps the only mutually
convenient venues and dates for a few weeks. I knew that the actual content
of one workshop would suit her (her words: she "couldn't wait to do creative
writing with a real author!") and that the other might not, but it wasn't
really a question of offering to take her to "a class". Rather than being
about 'educating' her, it was a chance to get out and about among people
she likes. When she wasn't enjoying the more "schooly" session and we
realized she didn't have much chance to socialize there either, we came away.
As for the one-to-one music lessons... we talk a lot about music, we can
appreciate lots of things together and she can share her enthusiasms with
me. But, when it comes to developing the baroque ornamentation,
articulation and use of vibrato (and suchlike) that she personally and of her own
choice, wants to master, then it's nice for her to get to this by playing her
music to an interested expert observer who can then give her constructive
feedback and share their understanding of what is a very specific technique.
We could (and do) look this stuff up together, and we certainly enjoy
listening to it together ... but she doesn't like playing it with me, as I'm
too grounded in other styles, and it's great for her to spend time with
people who've done it for real. I know that Sandra and a couple of others were
asking if this interest is Jess's rather than something driven by a desire
to please the adults around her. I think it is. She does it out of
fascination and fun and because the music moves her. She does feel "clever"
when she gets something new, but not in a "top of the class" competitive kind
of way. Certainly, she doesn't feel - and is not made to feel - that she
should do music because it's a potential profession (probably the opposite,
because she's seen what it's like to have 2 out of work musos as parents!).
But she likes to figure this stuff out, and she has eventually (by
process of elimination) found a couple of inspirational adult mentors who help
her to do this at her own pace and to suit her own style. Which was where my
query came from - if she's taking a holiday in order to deschool, what do
we do about music, which is a major holiday activity for her?
Sorry, this is another long post, but it does feel like the devil's in the
detail.
Jude x
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=if she's taking a holiday in order to deschool, what do
we do about music, which is a major holiday activity for her? -=-
If that never was school to her, don't worry about it. If unschooling
gives her more time to play and listen to baroque music, good! If
we're ever in the same place, ask her to let me play with her. I love
baroque music. I'm down to one decent alto recorder these days, but
it's workable. New Mexico's not ideal for recorders, it turns out.
After 25 or 30 years, they dry out, and the cork falls off, and
sometimes the wood cracks. <g> I didn't know that until recently!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
we do about music, which is a major holiday activity for her? -=-
If that never was school to her, don't worry about it. If unschooling
gives her more time to play and listen to baroque music, good! If
we're ever in the same place, ask her to let me play with her. I love
baroque music. I'm down to one decent alto recorder these days, but
it's workable. New Mexico's not ideal for recorders, it turns out.
After 25 or 30 years, they dry out, and the cork falls off, and
sometimes the wood cracks. <g> I didn't know that until recently!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]