Kandace M. Wright

James [3]...you gotta love this boy. He's funny as all heck. I love
him and his enormous personality. And yet there are moments I'd like
to throttle his preciousness.

I'm struggling a bit. We were at a restaurant last night when James
started saying "f****er". Not out of anger but simply with a smirk on
his face and clearly to get our attention. Though I felt like we were
giving him a lot of focus and attention previous to the language.

How do you approach things like this? He does know swearing is not
ok. We've talked about how words bother other people. I'm trying to
approach this with him both respectfully and in way that he can
understand at 3, that swearing isn't cool or even harsh words like
meanie, stupid, etc. Do I just keep working at my ability to not pay
value to them? Is there something that worked for anyone in the
group? Is it a age thing?

Kandace
Mom to Jackie - 12, Jacob 10, Jessica 7, James 3 and Jeremiah 10 months
Attachment Parenting International of Merrimack Valley Co-Leader
Artist - http://www.kandacewright.com

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 4, 2009, at 6:11 AM, Kandace M. Wright wrote:

> Though I felt like we were
> giving him a lot of focus and attention previous to the language.

It's not just attention kids want. It could very well be power. He's
realized he has the power to control the behavior of a whole table of
people. When you're a relatively powerless 3 yo, that's pretty kick
ass for them :-)

You could tell him -- in an informational way, not as a threat --
other people in the restaurant don't want to hear those words. If
he'd rather say the words than be with everyone, you'll have to go
outside so he can say them without bothering other people.

It's not a threat or a punishment. It's just being courteous.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kandace M. Wright

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> On Apr 4, 2009, at 6:11 AM, Kandace M. Wright wrote:
>
>> Though I felt like we were
>> giving him a lot of focus and attention previous to the language.
>
> It's not just attention kids want. It could very well be power. He's
> realized he has the power to control the behavior of a whole table of
> people. When you're a relatively powerless 3 yo, that's pretty kick
> ass for them :-)
>
> You could tell him -- in an informational way, not as a threat --
> other people in the restaurant don't want to hear those words. If
> he'd rather say the words than be with everyone, you'll have to go
> outside so he can say them without bothering other people.
>
> It's not a threat or a punishment. It's just being courteous.

Aha! That was the key. I was thinking attention but not power which
are different needs. This helps me to better focus how to
respectfully handle this for all parties involved. Truth was he
wasn't really interested in being there and that was key. We didn't
consider his needs strong enough. Next time I can avoid this simply
by asking him if he'd rather get takeout or eat there.

Kandace
Mom to Jackie - 12, Jacob 10, Jessica 7, James 3 and Jeremiah 10 months
Attachment Parenting International of Merrimack Valley Co-Leader
Artist - http://www.kandacewright.com

Sandra Dodd

-=- This helps me to better focus how to
respectfully handle this for all parties involved. Truth was he
wasn't really interested in being there and that was key. We didn't
consider his needs strong enough. Next time I can avoid this simply
by asking him if he'd rather get takeout or eat there.-=-

Another way to give a three year old power is to let him choose the
table, and choose where people sit, or make the conversation more
about him.

Wednesday there was a chat on being with children. There's a
transcript up here:
http://sandradodd.com/chats/being

But we didn't talk about being with a child in a group, and sometimes
focussing on the one who seems the most impatient or needy can make
everyone's time more fun.

Sandra

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k

>>>> Is it a age thing? <<<<

Yes in a manner of thinking. More accurately I would say it's a development
thing. It's an important part of their development.

It also pushes our own assumptions about language. Or it did mine. It
helped me to see it (somewhat) as colorful language and pithy sounds for
effect. That's what cussing really is. We could say other words that have
the same effect ... (*Frack*) or (Oh Bean Pips! ... not very imaginative but
I just made that one up).

Not to sidetrack you... consider also the difference between cussing (f**k)
and swearing (as G*d is my witness!). There was a thread not too long ago
(a couple months I think) which was very helpful to me in thinking through
this whole thing. I think it was on this list.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

LOL - really, seriously, I would have been cracking up over it. I might,
if there were people at other tables who were being disturbed by it,
gather him up (happily) and use an excuse to take him outdoors for a few
minutes. But, really, c'mon - you can't see the humor in it?

Respond to the reality - not to some voice in your head that says kids
should not say bad words. He was having fun with shocking you - not
understanding why it shocks you, but really it must be quite a thing for
a 3 year old to be able to get his mom and other adults all flustered by
just making certain sounds. I think it is funny - and he was doing it
himself and in his 3 year old mind it must have been hilarious. Remember
that 3 year olds LOVE to "make things happen." They like toys where they
can do things and make things happen, too.

Don't worry about swearing - if your family isn't big on using "bad"
words, he won't make them part of his everyday vocabulary.

You seem to have a lot of emotion around this issue, though, so you
might dig within and think about why.

I don't swear almost at all - very very very rarely. It doesn't come
naturally to me. My parents didn't swear. My kids don't do it a lot -
the do it appropriately, with friends in certain circumstances, but not
around strangers or in venues that would be inappropriate. We never made
ANY kind of deal about it if they did. "I" personally find it cute when
little kids do it.

But, still, respond to the real need being expressed, don't be
sidetracked by the means of expression.

I was at someone's house and a little boy - under 5 - called another
little boy - same age - a "dick." The other kid said it back. The mom
freaked out. She scared ME. I was giggling to myself and she made me
almost jump out of my chair. They were not even saying it meanly, it was
just obviously something the one kid had heard others say and was
repeating it very conversationally.

Its okay - I still know that kid and he's 16 now and he knows when and
when not to call someone a dick.<G>

-pam

On 4/4/2009 3:11 AM, Kandace M. Wright wrote:
> How do you approach things like this? He does know swearing is not
> ok.

Sandra Dodd

http://sandradodd.com/language/bad

The difference between curses and insults and swearing.
Some people call them all "bad words," but they're not all cussing and
they're not all swearing.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris and Kelli Bailey

<It's not just attention kids want. It could very well be power. You could tell him -- in an informational way, not as a threat --
other people in the restaurant don't want to hear those words. Joyce>
my boys (ages 10 and 7) have 2 friends their ages who are not permitted to watch movies with language, because the mom has experienced her sons repeating the words in play and also using "bad words" to get under her skin.  i'm talking pg-13 rated movies!
she aso believes in "shielding" them from "horrific images" because "once they are seen, they cannot be removed from the child's memory."
with this level of the parent controlling what the child is exposed to,  i've spent some  time (on several occasions) discussing and reminding with my boys what is and is not appropriate to say in front of their friends.  they value these friends immensely, and they understand if their friends repeat certain words in front of their mother, they will have fewer opportunities to spend time with each other.  i am cetain my kids would be seen as a threat to her childrens' "innocence." 
i have an unschooling friend who has expressed that maybe i shouldn't "work so hard" with that situation, but i don't feel i am imposing myself in any way on my children by helping them to understand the parameters this other family is willing to work within.  my kids make the decision whether THEY want to work so hard, and, for right now, they do.
 



 





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cathyandgarth

--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> LOL - really, seriously, I would have been cracking up over it.

> Respond to the reality - <snip> He was having fun with shocking you -

When my kids started experimenting with cuss words, exactly for the reasons Pam was describing, my DH had the hardest time seeing any humor in it and so they kept at it (I mean it was pretty funny to watch my DH lose it when they would use a cuss word). So my mom and I started making a game out of it which took the attention off DH's response and allowed him to regroup -- good Catholic school boy that he wasn't. One of them would cuss, who knows what would bring it on, and then it would lead to some very silly name calling/cussing. In the restaurant, it might have looked like my 3 year old saying "F***" (moment of silence -- because it would have shocked me in the moment), and then maybe I would say, "oh yeh, well, Brocoli!" and we would all chime in trying to come up with crazier and crazier words. This helped my DH embrace the humor, helped dissapate the discomfort created if we were in public, and changed the power of the word into something more lighthearted, after all it is just another collection of vowel and consonant sounds.

Cathy

PS you have older kids so you are undoubtedly familiar with Captain Underpants, but I always thought those books were great therapy for any adults who needed to lighted up about cuss words and swearing.

kelly_sturman

> then maybe I would say, "oh yeh, well, Brocoli!" and we
>would all chime in trying to come up with crazier and crazier words.

Reminds me of the song "Bulbous Bouffant" which is a
favorite around here. Many of us love to play with words.

When one of my DDs was 4, she discovered and just
absolutely LOVED the "F" word. And the way she would
use it was so context-appropriate. Like, if I asked her,
"How would you feel about washing the dishes with me?"
she might respond, "F--- that!"

So I said, "I notice you really like saying that word and
I am wondering why you like it so much."

She replied, "It is a really powerful word."

"It is, absolutely." I couldn't help but agree. "But I feel like
it loses a lot of its power if it is overused." And then
the conversation turned in a different direction.

By the next year, when she'd hear a group of older kids talking
amongst themselves, a very expletive laced conversation, she
mentioned to me that they could be more imaginative in expressing
themselves. "Everybody knows those words. Can't they think
of any others?"

Kelly Sturman

Kandace M. Wright

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> LOL - really, seriously, I would have been cracking up over it. I might,
> if there were people at other tables who were being disturbed by it,
> gather him up (happily) and use an excuse to take him outdoors for a few
> minutes. But, really, c'mon - you can't see the humor in it?

Actually at home we just play with words. I do see the humor in it.
But it's hard not to wonder if it's eventually going to get us kicked
out, lol.
>
> Respond to the reality - not to some voice in your head that says kids
> should not say bad words. He was having fun with shocking you - not
> understanding why it shocks you, but really it must be quite a thing for
> a 3 year old to be able to get his mom and other adults all flustered by
> just making certain sounds. I think it is funny - and he was doing it
> himself and in his 3 year old mind it must have been hilarious. Remember
> that 3 year olds LOVE to "make things happen." They like toys where they
> can do things and make things happen, too.

That's just it. I think for him, he was enjoying making Mom and Dad
kind of squirm a little in their seat. Where as at home, I don't even
get phased or we go into a whole slew of "naughty" words exchange.
Like he'll say "f***ker" and I will reply poopie poops, he'll reply
with poop stain or some other funny word/phrase.
>
> Don't worry about swearing - if your family isn't big on using "bad"
> words, he won't make them part of his everyday vocabulary.
>
> You seem to have a lot of emotion around this issue, though, so you
> might dig within and think about why.
>

Well... maybe that's the emotion you feel coming from me. I feel
guilty because I do cuss. Not a wicked lot but enough to know better,
;)

> I don't swear almost at all - very very very rarely. It doesn't come
> naturally to me. My parents didn't swear. My kids don't do it a lot -
> the do it appropriately, with friends in certain circumstances, but not
> around strangers or in venues that would be inappropriate. We never made
> ANY kind of deal about it if they did. "I" personally find it cute when
> little kids do it.
>
> But, still, respond to the real need being expressed, don't be
> sidetracked by the means of expression.
>
> I was at someone's house and a little boy - under 5 - called another
> little boy - same age - a "dick." The other kid said it back. The mom
> freaked out. She scared ME. I was giggling to myself and she made me
> almost jump out of my chair. They were not even saying it meanly, it was
> just obviously something the one kid had heard others say and was
> repeating it very conversationally.
>
> Its okay - I still know that kid and he's 16 now and he knows when and
> when not to call someone a dick.<G>
>

I would have been laughing, too.

Kandace M. Wright

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Chris and Kelli Bailey
<cdbailey_99@...> wrote:

> i have an unschooling friend who has expressed that maybe i shouldn't "work
> so hard" with that situation, but i don't feel i am imposing myself in any
> way on my children by helping them to understand the parameters this other
> family is willing to work within.  my kids make the decision whether THEY
> want to work so hard, and, for right now, they do.

I agree with you. I will sometimes talk to my kids about what
might/could happen if they make a particular choice. I even might
relate a similar situation I've encountered and how it turned out for
me. I always tell them they have to do what feels right to them and
if they need help, I'm here. Sometimes they want my opinion and other
times they don't. I respect that and allow them to make the choices
they want/need to. It's not easy all the time as I can often see
where things are heading but I love it when I'm wrong too. Keeps me
humble, ;)

Kandace
Mom to Jackie - 12, Jacob 10, Jessica 7, James 3 and Jeremiah 10 months
Attachment Parenting International of Merrimack Valley Co-Leader
Artist - http://www.kandacewright.com

Laureen

Heya~!

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 3:11 AM, Kandace M. Wright <kandacewrightnh@...
> wrote:

> I'm struggling a bit. We were at a restaurant last night when James
> started saying "f****er". Not out of anger but simply with a smirk on
> his face and clearly to get our attention. Though I felt like we were
> giving him a lot of focus and attention previous to the language.
>
> How do you approach things like this? He does know swearing is not
> ok. We've talked about how words bother other people. I'm trying to
> approach this with him both respectfully and in way that he can
> understand at 3, that swearing isn't cool or even harsh words like
> meanie, stupid, etc. Do I just keep working at my ability to not pay
> value to them? Is there something that worked for anyone in the
> group? Is it a age thing?


I don't like profanity, simply because it's mentally lazy. So when the
"let's see what shocks and provokes!" stage hit both my boys (because it
did), we discussed context and vocabulary. So an outburst of "f***er!" would
have been met by the question "what's the context? Are you upset about
something? What are some other words you could use there? Wonder if that's
in the thesaurus? Let's go look it up!" and so on. We play word games with
streams of opprobrium sometimes. Sometimes we'd burst into the Schoolhouse
Rock song "Interjections" which was always great fun. Nothing distracts a
three year old like both their parents singing "Innnnnnnnnnnterjections!
Show excitement! And emotion! They're generally set apart from a sentence by
an exclamation point, or by a comma when the feeeeeeeeling's not as
strroooooooooooong! oooooooooh!"

Once they get older, explorations of classical insults (Shakespeare was a
total winner in the creative insult department) can yield some fabulous
vocabulary. Try saying those words in different languages, or explore the
fact that different cultures have different insults (english is obsessed
with sex and elimination, but other cultures talk about the bottom of your
foot or your thumbs or whatever... it's kind of fascinating...)

Cartoon insults are also mines of creativity. Kestrel, who is about to turn
four, adopted "Holy clam and cuttlefish!" as his exclamation of choice. I
think it's from Lilo and Stitch, but I'm not positive. And Kim Possible's
Dad says "Good Garden Party!" which just sends the boys into hysterics.
Waaaaaay more reaction, and attention, than a mere bit of profanity.

--
~~L!

~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Writing here:
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/

Evolving here:
http://www.consciouswoman.org/
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 4/5/2009 3:14 PM, Laureen wrote:
> I don't like profanity, simply because it's mentally lazy.

I already said I don't use profanity but it isn't because I'm not
mentally lazy. It is because it doesn't come naturally to me - my
parents didn't use it so I didn't internalize it as part of my regular
vocabulary. But I don't see how it is more lazy than saying, "How are
you?" or "Nice to meet you?" or "Thank you" or lots of other rather
automatic kinds of responses.

I've heard people give this reason before, but I think it is a reason
that doesn't really hold up, but seems like a good one, on the surface.
Seems like if it was just that it is "lazy" then there are lots of other
lazy speech habits that you'd dislike, too. Seems like not wanting to
think more deeply about what bothers you about it.

Seems like banging your thumb with a hammer isn't a time to worry about
using particularly creative language, anyway, but more appropriately a
time for a well-known common expletive.

-pam

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I don't like profanity, simply because it's mentally lazy. 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Well I like using "those" words because they feel good when they rolo out my tongue ( in context usually)
One more thing that I am lazy about then...
<BWG>
I don't make a big deal out of it. I do explain to my 6 year old that he may want to refrain from saying then in certain places and in front of certain people and why.

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-
On 4/5/2009 3:14 PM, Laureen wrote:
> I don't like profanity, simply because it's mentally lazy.-=-

People say that, but it's not necessarily true.
It's pretty lazy to have a prescripted set of stock responses.

My fourth grade teacher, Sally Gonzales, my favorite teacher of all
time, said that when people write they use combinations of words that
no one has ever used before. I didn't think she could be right about
that, but I do it every day. Some people rarely do. They say safe,
easy, lazy things. And some of them have rules against profanity,
which further limits them.

Creativity is neither proven nor disproven by vocabulary.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Laureen

Heya

On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

> I already said I don't use profanity but it isn't because I'm not
> mentally lazy. It is because it doesn't come naturally to me - my
> parents didn't use it so I didn't internalize it as part of my regular
> vocabulary. But I don't see how it is more lazy than saying, "How are
> you?" or "Nice to meet you?" or "Thank you" or lots of other rather
> automatic kinds of responses.
>

I think it's different than the other automatics (like "Nice to meet you")
because there isn't really a better way to say that or indicate the degree
or intensity of your feeling that doesn't also involve pretty standard
expression. But when the majority of a person's adjectives are "f***ing",
it's lazy.

My stepfather swears so much I don't think he even realizes he's doing it
any more. Meaningful descriptions have vanished from lack of use. It's not a
blue car, it's the "f***ing car". He's not thoroughly surprised, he's
"f***ing astonished". When he's searching for a noun, it's not "that thing"
it's "some s***". And so on. All the depth and breadth of descriptive and
informative language choices have devolved into a handful of words that have
become both meaningless and powerless from overuse.

My brother in law is the same way. The entire range of description of
emotion is translated by him as "d***". Surprise is nearly always "WTF?" Any
female that disagrees with him or fails to do as he'd do is a "B****".

It's the reduction that I think of as lazy. Could a female person who was
mean to him be a b****? Sure. But she could be so many other things as well.
But that word has become verbal shorthand.

I had a grandmother who excelled at strings of opprobrium. The woman had the
most amazing ability to string together creative insult. She'd get a rhythm
going, and sound like a drumbeat. When she was angry, whomever she was angry
at knew it, and knew precisely what she was upset about. "You a**hole"
really doesn't give a lot of good information.

Naturally, I've gone the lazy route. Slamming my hand in the car door got a
one-syllable expletive, and no creativity.



--
~~L!

~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Writing here:
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/

Evolving here:
http://www.consciouswoman.org/
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=All the depth and breadth of descriptive and
informative language choices have devolved into a handful of words
that have
become both meaningless and powerless from overuse.-=-

It was powerful enough that you wrote to us about it.

-=I had a grandmother who excelled at strings of opprobrium. The woman
had the
most amazing ability to string together creative insult. She'd get a
rhythm
going, and sound like a drumbeat. When she was angry, whomever she was
angry
at knew it, and knew precisely what she was upset about. "You a**hole"
really doesn't give a lot of good information.-=-

Not everyone has the gift of verbal gymnastics. Some do.
Appreciating those who do and hoping those who don't find things
they're good at might be the way to go.

Sandra

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