parental decisions, choices, progress
Sandra Dodd
The quote below is from outside the list, but I'm bringing it here,
and my initial response. I might bring more of that side mail, but it
was very VERY long, and was about particular people and details
without having been reduced to the basic ideas and principles.
(That's why the mom didn't send it to the list; it was too long.)
One point is important to make frequently, though, so I've brought it
in public and invite other comments on this idea and anything else
that comes up about it.
=============================================
-=- Unfortunately, I could not pull him out of the school, because the
school requires that we sign a contract that says we have to stay for
the whole schoolyear. If for some reason, we cannot, then we have to
continue paying the monthly tuition till schoolyear's end.-=-
If you had bought a gallon of something that turned out to be spoiled,
or poison, would you have said "I could not stop giving him the
scheduled doses, because we had already paid for a gallon"?
All the time you weren't reading the list, we were still writing.
We've even written about the differences between Montessori and
unschooling, which are NOT minor as you seem to think.
I'm going to post this on the list, and you should read the list and
not depend on side advice. It's possible that one of the moms you've
written to on the side here will have time to respond privately, but
there's MUCH more value in discussing things on the list so that
others benefit and you can get more people's take and experience and
brainstorming.
-=-Unfortunately, I could not pull him out of the school-=-
I could scream. Unschooling is about helping children see their
choices. PARENTS HAVE CHOICES TOO!!!!!
This might be an example we needed the other day about the deschooling
of parents.
Anyone who thinks I shouldn't have anything to scream about or who's
not nodding in agreement at the moment, PLEASE, for the sake of your
family and your own clarity of thought, read or re-read this:
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
And some or all of the other pages linked there. THIS IS IT. This is
the crux of everything we're talking about. To move toward what you
want to have, make choices that move you in that direction. If
you're travelling north, you might make some east, west or south
steps, as you stop to rest, or wander over to see something, but
unless MOST of your steps are north, you'll just mill around in the
same place and you might as well stop even THINKING about north.
Same with unschoooling. Some steps might be away from it, but unless
it becomes part of one's nature to make decisions in light of what
leads to more peace and learning, why even be on a list like this?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and my initial response. I might bring more of that side mail, but it
was very VERY long, and was about particular people and details
without having been reduced to the basic ideas and principles.
(That's why the mom didn't send it to the list; it was too long.)
One point is important to make frequently, though, so I've brought it
in public and invite other comments on this idea and anything else
that comes up about it.
=============================================
-=- Unfortunately, I could not pull him out of the school, because the
school requires that we sign a contract that says we have to stay for
the whole schoolyear. If for some reason, we cannot, then we have to
continue paying the monthly tuition till schoolyear's end.-=-
If you had bought a gallon of something that turned out to be spoiled,
or poison, would you have said "I could not stop giving him the
scheduled doses, because we had already paid for a gallon"?
All the time you weren't reading the list, we were still writing.
We've even written about the differences between Montessori and
unschooling, which are NOT minor as you seem to think.
I'm going to post this on the list, and you should read the list and
not depend on side advice. It's possible that one of the moms you've
written to on the side here will have time to respond privately, but
there's MUCH more value in discussing things on the list so that
others benefit and you can get more people's take and experience and
brainstorming.
-=-Unfortunately, I could not pull him out of the school-=-
I could scream. Unschooling is about helping children see their
choices. PARENTS HAVE CHOICES TOO!!!!!
This might be an example we needed the other day about the deschooling
of parents.
Anyone who thinks I shouldn't have anything to scream about or who's
not nodding in agreement at the moment, PLEASE, for the sake of your
family and your own clarity of thought, read or re-read this:
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
And some or all of the other pages linked there. THIS IS IT. This is
the crux of everything we're talking about. To move toward what you
want to have, make choices that move you in that direction. If
you're travelling north, you might make some east, west or south
steps, as you stop to rest, or wander over to see something, but
unless MOST of your steps are north, you'll just mill around in the
same place and you might as well stop even THINKING about north.
Same with unschoooling. Some steps might be away from it, but unless
it becomes part of one's nature to make decisions in light of what
leads to more peace and learning, why even be on a list like this?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
-=- Unfortunately, I could not pull him out of the school, because the
school requires that we sign a contract that says we have to stay for
the whole schoolyear. If for some reason, we cannot, then we have to
continue paying the monthly tuition till schoolyear's end.-=-
1) The child should never have to suffer because the parent signed a
contract;
2) if the school was worth the cash while he was there, the environment is
not conducive to his life at this point, then it's worth the cash to bring
him home;
3) let this be a lesson in contracts for all of you, it's a conversation I
wish I'd had swirling around me as a kid - Caveat Emptor - be very careful
where you invest your cash and your signature;
4) that there school will probably still be standing long after your child
is grown; they can get another student, you can't get another *him*
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
school requires that we sign a contract that says we have to stay for
the whole schoolyear. If for some reason, we cannot, then we have to
continue paying the monthly tuition till schoolyear's end.-=-
1) The child should never have to suffer because the parent signed a
contract;
2) if the school was worth the cash while he was there, the environment is
not conducive to his life at this point, then it's worth the cash to bring
him home;
3) let this be a lesson in contracts for all of you, it's a conversation I
wish I'd had swirling around me as a kid - Caveat Emptor - be very careful
where you invest your cash and your signature;
4) that there school will probably still be standing long after your child
is grown; they can get another student, you can't get another *him*
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<< Some steps might be away from it, but unless it becomes part of one's nature to make decisions in light of what leads to more peace and learning, why even be on a list like this? >>
So that I can LEARN TO MAKE IT become part of my nature "to make decisions in light of what leads to more peace and learning." I'm sorry, but is this list only for very experienced unschoolers? I forget because there are a number of unschooling lists that I am on, and I apologize if I am troubling you with my struggles to think clearly in an unschooling and peaceful parenting manner.
Yes, you're right -- though we have been trying our best to unschool for the last few years, I guess I am still in the deschooling stage. The traditional ed. and traditional parenting mentality has been so ingrained in me that it has been a great struggle. I thought I had made some progress, but apparently, according to you, I have not.
Not everyone can be as lucky or as brilliant as you (and I say this sincerely) in understanding the whole concept of unschooling and peaceful parenting so quickly and thoroughly. I wish I didn't have to go through these struggles and have to bother experts like you for advice. Since you have obviously been gifted with all this knowledge and understanding, I wish you would be more patient to us mortals, who are slower in *getting it,* but are trying they're best to.
Yes, I will read the link you sent me about *have-to's.*
The introduction on the Always Learning website page says:
"This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play way.)" Please let me know if I've been uncooperative. As for being nice to play with or deal with in the list, shouldn't that apply to all members of the list, including moderators?
Shelley
So that I can LEARN TO MAKE IT become part of my nature "to make decisions in light of what leads to more peace and learning." I'm sorry, but is this list only for very experienced unschoolers? I forget because there are a number of unschooling lists that I am on, and I apologize if I am troubling you with my struggles to think clearly in an unschooling and peaceful parenting manner.
Yes, you're right -- though we have been trying our best to unschool for the last few years, I guess I am still in the deschooling stage. The traditional ed. and traditional parenting mentality has been so ingrained in me that it has been a great struggle. I thought I had made some progress, but apparently, according to you, I have not.
Not everyone can be as lucky or as brilliant as you (and I say this sincerely) in understanding the whole concept of unschooling and peaceful parenting so quickly and thoroughly. I wish I didn't have to go through these struggles and have to bother experts like you for advice. Since you have obviously been gifted with all this knowledge and understanding, I wish you would be more patient to us mortals, who are slower in *getting it,* but are trying they're best to.
Yes, I will read the link you sent me about *have-to's.*
The introduction on the Always Learning website page says:
"This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative. (Not moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play way.)" Please let me know if I've been uncooperative. As for being nice to play with or deal with in the list, shouldn't that apply to all members of the list, including moderators?
Shelley
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 1:29 PM
Subject: parental decisions, choices, progress
The quote below is from outside the list, but I'm bringing it here, and my initial response. I might bring more of that side mail, but it was very VERY long, and was about particular people and details without having been reduced to the basic ideas and principles. (That's why the mom didn't send it to the list; it was too long.)
One point is important to make frequently, though, so I've brought it in public and invite other comments on this idea and anything else that comes up about it.
=============================================
-=- Unfortunately, I could not pull him out of the school, because the school requires that we sign a contract that says we have to stay for the whole schoolyear. If for some reason, we cannot, then we have to continue paying the monthly tuition till schoolyear's end.-=-
If you had bought a gallon of something that turned out to be spoiled, or poison, would you have said "I could not stop giving him the scheduled doses, because we had already paid for a gallon"?
All the time you weren't reading the list, we were still writing. We've even written about the differences between Montessori and unschooling, which are NOT minor as you seem to think.
I'm going to post this on the list, and you should read the list and not depend on side advice. It's possible that one of the moms you've written to on the side here will have time to respond privately, but there's MUCH more value in discussing things on the list so that others benefit and you can get more people's take and experience and brainstorming.
-=-Unfortunately, I could not pull him out of the school-=-
I could scream. Unschooling is about helping children see their choices. PARENTS HAVE CHOICES TOO!!!!!
This might be an example we needed the other day about the deschooling of parents.
Anyone who thinks I shouldn't have anything to scream about or who's not nodding in agreement at the moment, PLEASE, for the sake of your family and your own clarity of thought, read or re-read this:
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
And some or all of the other pages linked there. THIS IS IT. This is the crux of everything we're talking about. To move toward what you want to have, make choices that move you in that direction. If you're travelling north, you might make some east, west or south steps, as you stop to rest, or wander over to see something, but unless MOST of your steps are north, you'll just mill around in the same place and you might as well stop even THINKING about north.
Same with unschoooling. Some steps might be away from it, but unless it becomes part of one's nature to make decisions in light of what leads to more peace and learning, why even be on a list like this?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Yes, you're right -- though we have been trying our best to
unschool for the last few years, I guess I am still in the deschooling
stage-=-
Okay, if we were in person I think I WOULD be yelling.
Shelly, you did not need to out yourself on the list. We could have
talked about the situation without talking about ANY individual
particular person.
When I wrote yesterday asking people to be honest, I didn't know that
someone would write to me on the side (and others):
-=-I am a member of your Always Learning Yahoo group, and I just read
your post, Sandra, on "List Business."-=-
Okay. . So you read where I tried to emphasize how important it is
that people's messages to this HUGE LIST be well thought out and
sincere and honest.
The situation is about a child in school, who is in school at this
point because the parents paid for it and don't want to take him out
while it's still paid for.
It is not the purpose of this list to discuss the problems caused by
schools.
-=-I wish I didn't have to go through these struggles and have to
bother experts like you for advice. ...
Yes, I will read the link you sent me about *have-to's.*-=-
NOTE TO EVERYONE:
Read the links first and THEN think and then *maybe* post back to the
list. Don't say "I wish I didn't have to..." and then promise to read
the links about have to, or whatever links have been suggested.
This is to anyone who's reading: Is it not enough that this list
exists and people will answer your questions? That Joyce and I have
been collecting the best writings of the past several years and
putting them where you can get to them freely and easily?
-=-"This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative.
(Not moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play
way.)" Please let me know if I've been uncooperative. As for being
nice to play with or deal with in the list, shouldn't that apply to
all members of the list, including moderators?-=-
I'm not just a moderator, I'm the owner and operator. Do you think I
should be nice to your specifications or throw myself off the list!?
I think it's uncooperative to want unschoolers to help with a school
problem, yes. I think posting about having to do something instead of
reading what's already been written about the idea of choice vs. "have
to" is uncooperative, yes.
Sandra
unschool for the last few years, I guess I am still in the deschooling
stage-=-
Okay, if we were in person I think I WOULD be yelling.
Shelly, you did not need to out yourself on the list. We could have
talked about the situation without talking about ANY individual
particular person.
When I wrote yesterday asking people to be honest, I didn't know that
someone would write to me on the side (and others):
-=-I am a member of your Always Learning Yahoo group, and I just read
your post, Sandra, on "List Business."-=-
Okay. . So you read where I tried to emphasize how important it is
that people's messages to this HUGE LIST be well thought out and
sincere and honest.
The situation is about a child in school, who is in school at this
point because the parents paid for it and don't want to take him out
while it's still paid for.
It is not the purpose of this list to discuss the problems caused by
schools.
-=-I wish I didn't have to go through these struggles and have to
bother experts like you for advice. ...
Yes, I will read the link you sent me about *have-to's.*-=-
NOTE TO EVERYONE:
Read the links first and THEN think and then *maybe* post back to the
list. Don't say "I wish I didn't have to..." and then promise to read
the links about have to, or whatever links have been suggested.
This is to anyone who's reading: Is it not enough that this list
exists and people will answer your questions? That Joyce and I have
been collecting the best writings of the past several years and
putting them where you can get to them freely and easily?
-=-"This is a moderated group, with trapdoors for the uncooperative.
(Not moderated in the advance-approval way, but in the be-nice-to-play
way.)" Please let me know if I've been uncooperative. As for being
nice to play with or deal with in the list, shouldn't that apply to
all members of the list, including moderators?-=-
I'm not just a moderator, I'm the owner and operator. Do you think I
should be nice to your specifications or throw myself off the list!?
I think it's uncooperative to want unschoolers to help with a school
problem, yes. I think posting about having to do something instead of
reading what's already been written about the idea of choice vs. "have
to" is uncooperative, yes.
Sandra
Su Penn
On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:29 PM, Shelley wrote:
"sunk costs." A sunk cost is a cost that can't be recovered--that
time, money, energy, or capital is gone, and it's not coming back. Why
this has been liberating is that sunk costs are ideally irrelevant to
future decisions, but it's easy to get sucked into the idea of "I paid
for this, so I have to use it, even though I'm not enjoying it/it
tastes bad/ it hurts/I'd rather be doing something else right now."
It's easy to get trapped into bad decisions because we can't let go of
sunk costs. For instance, suppose I buy theater tickets. Three weeks
later on the night of the show, I don't feel like going. I would
rather have a quiet evening at home. My choices are:
1. Stay home. I'm out the money for the tickets, but I enjoy my
evening and feel rested and refreshed.
2. Go to the theater even though I don't want to. I'm still out the
money for the tickets, but I end the evening feeling even more
frazzled than I began, still wishing for a quiet evening I might not
be able to get for awhile.
In the case of the tuition, going forward a parent can:
1. Keep paying tuition and keep the child in an unhappy school
situation until the contract expires.
2. Keep paying tuition, as the contract requires, but remove the child
from school, get a start on de-schooling, relax and enjoy some family
time.
The financial cost is the same in either situation. What is different
in each situation are the _future_ costs, and that's what it can help
to compare.
I don't mean to be all jargon-y and abstract, or to start a
conversation about economic theory! But my partner and I fairly
regularly, when one of us is making a decision, will remind each
other, "That's a sunk cost. Let it go. What do you want to do _now_?"
What this school year costs in money is a sunk cost. What it costs in
other ways can still be changed going forward. You may not have any
control over the tuitions costs but you do have control over some of
the others.
Good luck.
Su
> -=- Unfortunately, I could not pull him out of the school, because theAt our house, it has been liberating to learn the economic concept of
> school requires that we sign a contract that says we have to stay for
> the whole schoolyear. If for some reason, we cannot, then we have to
> continue paying the monthly tuition till schoolyear's end.-=-
"sunk costs." A sunk cost is a cost that can't be recovered--that
time, money, energy, or capital is gone, and it's not coming back. Why
this has been liberating is that sunk costs are ideally irrelevant to
future decisions, but it's easy to get sucked into the idea of "I paid
for this, so I have to use it, even though I'm not enjoying it/it
tastes bad/ it hurts/I'd rather be doing something else right now."
It's easy to get trapped into bad decisions because we can't let go of
sunk costs. For instance, suppose I buy theater tickets. Three weeks
later on the night of the show, I don't feel like going. I would
rather have a quiet evening at home. My choices are:
1. Stay home. I'm out the money for the tickets, but I enjoy my
evening and feel rested and refreshed.
2. Go to the theater even though I don't want to. I'm still out the
money for the tickets, but I end the evening feeling even more
frazzled than I began, still wishing for a quiet evening I might not
be able to get for awhile.
In the case of the tuition, going forward a parent can:
1. Keep paying tuition and keep the child in an unhappy school
situation until the contract expires.
2. Keep paying tuition, as the contract requires, but remove the child
from school, get a start on de-schooling, relax and enjoy some family
time.
The financial cost is the same in either situation. What is different
in each situation are the _future_ costs, and that's what it can help
to compare.
I don't mean to be all jargon-y and abstract, or to start a
conversation about economic theory! But my partner and I fairly
regularly, when one of us is making a decision, will remind each
other, "That's a sunk cost. Let it go. What do you want to do _now_?"
What this school year costs in money is a sunk cost. What it costs in
other ways can still be changed going forward. You may not have any
control over the tuitions costs but you do have control over some of
the others.
Good luck.
Su
kelly_sturman
--- In [email protected], diana jenner <hahamommy@...> wrote:
contracts, and how they can be used and misused.
One of my sons just told me he doesn't want to take drum lessons anymore.
I could choose to be angry and make him continue to take lessons. I paid
for six weeks of lessons and I can't get that money back. I can say, "If you
choose to spend my money, then you are choosing to commit your time."
But that does not honor the fact that people's needs and interests change.
So I would not use "if-then" like that.
Instead, I choose to be loving and accepting and supportive. Why should
DS feel guilty that his interest in drum kit lessons has waned?
The money is already spent, but his time is *not*. I would much rather see DS
spend the time doing something he loves. I let him know that, that his time has
value. His joy has value.
I don't think kids should concern themselves with the money their parents
choose to spend on them. Kids shouldn't feel like they "have to" do something
just because money has been spent.
Kelly Sturman
>This makes me think of Sandra's and Joyce's writings about "if-then"
> -=- Unfortunately, I could not pull him out of the school, because the
> school requires that we sign a contract that says we have to stay for
> the whole schoolyear. If for some reason, we cannot, then we have to
> continue paying the monthly tuition till schoolyear's end.-=-
>
> 1) The child should never have to suffer because the parent signed a
> contract;
contracts, and how they can be used and misused.
One of my sons just told me he doesn't want to take drum lessons anymore.
I could choose to be angry and make him continue to take lessons. I paid
for six weeks of lessons and I can't get that money back. I can say, "If you
choose to spend my money, then you are choosing to commit your time."
But that does not honor the fact that people's needs and interests change.
So I would not use "if-then" like that.
Instead, I choose to be loving and accepting and supportive. Why should
DS feel guilty that his interest in drum kit lessons has waned?
The money is already spent, but his time is *not*. I would much rather see DS
spend the time doing something he loves. I let him know that, that his time has
value. His joy has value.
I don't think kids should concern themselves with the money their parents
choose to spend on them. Kids shouldn't feel like they "have to" do something
just because money has been spent.
Kelly Sturman
Jenny C
>One of the most painful things in my life is seeing all these kids that
> I could scream. Unschooling is about helping children see their
> choices. PARENTS HAVE CHOICES TOO!!!!!
>
have no choices, or feel like they have no choices, or have a bunch of
bad choices to choose from.
I had a talk with Chamille's best friend yesterday that involved the
legalities of emancipation. Her first choice is to be legally adopted
by our family, which I would do in a heartbeat, but I know that it will
never be, since she has 2 biological parents, and grandparents
somewhere.
This is a kid that feels she has no choices, and the choices she has are
in the realm of endangering her life as a runaway, or staying in a house
that is miserable.
Parents can do a LOT of damage to kids by removing choices. Kids, like
adults react in the way all people do, to control and lack of choices.
They will do everything in their power to resist, their whole existence
depends on sovereignty and the search for it. If you seek to control
another, I imagine, the first thing you do is to remove choices to
establish power and dominance.
I've been dealing with this for years, this hurt child, friend of my
daughter. I was grappling with my own feelings of lack of control and
choices about what I CAN do. I've been thinking about this since
yesterday's conversation. I've thought about it before. There was
something different about our conversation yesterday, it was as if, for
the first time, she has recognized that she has choices, which is
simultaneously beautiful and scary.
I've allowed, to an extent, this man dictate how things will go, and do
as much damage control as possible, just so that our kids can spend
small amounts of time together. In many ways Chamille handles the
situation better than I do and I attribute that to the fact that she
hasn't been damaged by control and lack of choices.
If a child, or a parent feels like they don't have choices, free
choices, then how can we ever learn how to responsibly handle the
choices we do have? This relates to another topic recently about
failure to meet standards. Making choices involves trial and error and
learning. Without ever making the choice to try something, wether the
outcome is successful or not, we will never learn from it. Some
mistakes can never be undone.
If a parent recognizes that going to school is harming their child, it
is a mistake to continue that harm. Learn from that mistake, don't make
it again, make a better choice!
diana jenner
-=- Not everyone can be as lucky or as brilliant as you (and I say this
sincerely) in understanding the whole concept of unschooling and peaceful
parenting so quickly and thoroughly. I wish I didn't have to go through
these struggles and have to bother experts like you for advice. Since you
have obviously been gifted with all this knowledge and understanding, I wish
you would be more patient to us mortals, who are slower in *getting it,* but
are trying they're best to.-=-
I know, too, it seems intimidating when others seem natural at what I
struggle to grasp. What I've discovered is the mindset of the experienced
unschooler is the same mindset of the beginner - the goal is set and we
reach for it; sometimes starting over every few minutes, every day. It's a
matter of stronger muscles from more frequent practice. Listening to
Parenting Peacefully is my #1 recommendation for beginning to collect voices
to live in your head; voices who can lead you where you want to be - in
peaceful relationship with yourself and your loved ones. You can do both at
the same time, Sandra speaks of this (in my head, often) as Practice What
You Want to Be Good At. http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
I remind myself, while breathing, that I do not have the energy to address
the voices who may insist I *cannot* __________; I work tko reinforce and
listen to the voices that lead me to what I *CAN* do.
Everyone CAN channel their inner unschooler. Invite your image of your
favorite unschooler to sit in the corner of your living room - act as if you
are doing unschooing under their watchful eyes and advice. I praqcticed this
for MONTHS before I even met Sandra in real life. Being in her space and
around her children really helped reinforced those visits, along with the
cassette of the talk ;) I have other unschoolers I still call upon to
visit-in-spirit, depending on my situation-at-hand (I had a whole team ready
for my recent visit to the school-thinking friends and in-laws last week -
it *still* helps keep me calm and in practice of what I really want to be
good at).
It helps me to remember, too, that even the calmest, most confident
unschooling parent, had normal, human baggage to overcome, too. The biggest
benefit to the leap to unschooling is a big sense of urgency. You only have
NOW to experience; do not wait for whatever arbitrary date you've got set.
That kick-in-the-pants urgency is the GREATEST gift I've received from these
sorts of discussions. One shot at parenting *this* kid, what am I gonna do
with it?
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sincerely) in understanding the whole concept of unschooling and peaceful
parenting so quickly and thoroughly. I wish I didn't have to go through
these struggles and have to bother experts like you for advice. Since you
have obviously been gifted with all this knowledge and understanding, I wish
you would be more patient to us mortals, who are slower in *getting it,* but
are trying they're best to.-=-
I know, too, it seems intimidating when others seem natural at what I
struggle to grasp. What I've discovered is the mindset of the experienced
unschooler is the same mindset of the beginner - the goal is set and we
reach for it; sometimes starting over every few minutes, every day. It's a
matter of stronger muscles from more frequent practice. Listening to
Parenting Peacefully is my #1 recommendation for beginning to collect voices
to live in your head; voices who can lead you where you want to be - in
peaceful relationship with yourself and your loved ones. You can do both at
the same time, Sandra speaks of this (in my head, often) as Practice What
You Want to Be Good At. http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
I remind myself, while breathing, that I do not have the energy to address
the voices who may insist I *cannot* __________; I work tko reinforce and
listen to the voices that lead me to what I *CAN* do.
Everyone CAN channel their inner unschooler. Invite your image of your
favorite unschooler to sit in the corner of your living room - act as if you
are doing unschooing under their watchful eyes and advice. I praqcticed this
for MONTHS before I even met Sandra in real life. Being in her space and
around her children really helped reinforced those visits, along with the
cassette of the talk ;) I have other unschoolers I still call upon to
visit-in-spirit, depending on my situation-at-hand (I had a whole team ready
for my recent visit to the school-thinking friends and in-laws last week -
it *still* helps keep me calm and in practice of what I really want to be
good at).
It helps me to remember, too, that even the calmest, most confident
unschooling parent, had normal, human baggage to overcome, too. The biggest
benefit to the leap to unschooling is a big sense of urgency. You only have
NOW to experience; do not wait for whatever arbitrary date you've got set.
That kick-in-the-pants urgency is the GREATEST gift I've received from these
sorts of discussions. One shot at parenting *this* kid, what am I gonna do
with it?
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Not everyone can be as lucky or as brilliant as you (and I say this
sincerely) in understanding the whole concept of unschooling and
peaceful
parenting so quickly and thoroughly.-=-
"Lucky" and "brilliant" aren't enough. I think about everything I do
with my kids, and have been doing that for over 22 years. Because
I've been thinking about it so much and writing and talking about it
with people for most of that time (all of it, counting the La Leche
League years talking about nursing and babies and then childbirth
activism group and then unschooling), I'm able to help other people
see where they're on the wrong path.
Putting a child in school is clearly not the right path to
unschooling. That's not even the opposite of lucky and brilliant. It
was a conscious decision that was not in an unschooling direction.
-=- Since you
have obviously been gifted with all this knowledge and understanding,
I wish
you would be more patient to us mortals, who are slower in *getting
it,* but
are trying they're best to.-=-
Sarcasm and snarkiness aside, putting a child in school is not trying
one's best. It's not being slow to get it, even.
Leaving a child in school just because the tuition is paid and then
insulting unschoolers when it's pointed out isn't trying one's best to
get unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sincerely) in understanding the whole concept of unschooling and
peaceful
parenting so quickly and thoroughly.-=-
"Lucky" and "brilliant" aren't enough. I think about everything I do
with my kids, and have been doing that for over 22 years. Because
I've been thinking about it so much and writing and talking about it
with people for most of that time (all of it, counting the La Leche
League years talking about nursing and babies and then childbirth
activism group and then unschooling), I'm able to help other people
see where they're on the wrong path.
Putting a child in school is clearly not the right path to
unschooling. That's not even the opposite of lucky and brilliant. It
was a conscious decision that was not in an unschooling direction.
-=- Since you
have obviously been gifted with all this knowledge and understanding,
I wish
you would be more patient to us mortals, who are slower in *getting
it,* but
are trying they're best to.-=-
Sarcasm and snarkiness aside, putting a child in school is not trying
one's best. It's not being slow to get it, even.
Leaving a child in school just because the tuition is paid and then
insulting unschoolers when it's pointed out isn't trying one's best to
get unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Diana,
Thank you for taking the time to spell it out so clearly -- I really appreciate it! I agree so much with all the points you've listed below and even asked my husband to read them. He thought it made a lot of sense. Thanks for helping us look at it from a different and better perspective!
Shelley
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Diana Jenner wrote:
-=- Unfortunately, I could not pull him out of the school, because the
school requires that we sign a contract that says we have to stay for
the whole schoolyear. If for some reason, we cannot, then we have to
continue paying the monthly tuition till schoolyear's end.-=-
1) The child should never have to suffer because the parent signed a
contract;
2) if the school was worth the cash while he was there, the environment is
not conducive to his life at this point, then it's worth the cash to bring
him home;
3) let this be a lesson in contracts for all of you, it's a conversation I
wish I'd had swirling around me as a kid - Caveat Emptor - be very careful
where you invest your cash and your signature;
4) that there school will probably still be standing long after your child
is grown; they can get another student, you can't get another *him*
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thank you for taking the time to spell it out so clearly -- I really appreciate it! I agree so much with all the points you've listed below and even asked my husband to read them. He thought it made a lot of sense. Thanks for helping us look at it from a different and better perspective!
Shelley
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Diana Jenner wrote:
-=- Unfortunately, I could not pull him out of the school, because the
school requires that we sign a contract that says we have to stay for
the whole schoolyear. If for some reason, we cannot, then we have to
continue paying the monthly tuition till schoolyear's end.-=-
1) The child should never have to suffer because the parent signed a
contract;
2) if the school was worth the cash while he was there, the environment is
not conducive to his life at this point, then it's worth the cash to bring
him home;
3) let this be a lesson in contracts for all of you, it's a conversation I
wish I'd had swirling around me as a kid - Caveat Emptor - be very careful
where you invest your cash and your signature;
4) that there school will probably still be standing long after your child
is grown; they can get another student, you can't get another *him*
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
the time my wife and I decided to take him out of school there were
only seven weeks remaining to the end of the school year. At a
meeting with his teacher and the school counsellor a few days after
the decision, we agreed as a courtesy to the school that Patrick
would complete the year.
It was a totally stupid agreement. The final seven weeks turned out
to be very tough for both Patrick and myself - I was the one who was
taking him to school every morning and picking him up in the
afternoon, plus I was in school for at least some of the time every
day for "moral support" in one way or another - morning assembly,
helping with the reading program and in the canteen, whatever it
took. It was a huge, huge effort that took massive doses of "positive
thinking" to cope with and it was all totally UNNECESSARY. We went
through it because *I* decided to honour the agreement I'd made. It
didn't matter to anybody else, they just got on with their lives.
Even when it got tough, I didn't have the sense to think, "Maybe we
ought to forget what we agreed to and quit right now." What an idiot.
Absolutely, if I had my time over again, I wouldn't even have
bothered with a meeting with the school's representatives after the
decision to remove my son had been made; I would have taken Patrick
out of school on the day and too bad if the school didn't like it.
Anyway, I'm probably adequately "deschooled" these days ("Schools?
Yeah, don't *they* have an overinflated sense of their importance in
the world?") and I've been able to make it up to my son and more and
we're both over it (we had the conversation a few years ago).
The year after my son quit school, a local karate club was recruiting
new members and Patrick was curious so my wife and I signed him up
for a trial period that cost $120 (a non-refundable deal). I took him
along to the first evening's class - which, as it happens, was in the
assembly hall at his former school - and the guy running the class
had all the kids lined up and doing drills and was shouting out his
instructions like a sergeant-major, and I'm thinking, "Hmm ... I
wonder if Patrick is going to take to this". Patrick didn't like it
at all. So he quit after the first lesson. My wife and I simply wrote
off the $120. We'd learned our lesson. LOL
Interestingly, not long afterwards, I ran into the mother of one of
the boys in that introductory karate class who was also an
ex-classmate of Patrick's, in my local supermarket. She asked me if
Patrick was still doing the karate. "No," I said, "He hated it. He
never went back after that first lesson." "Oh, thank goodness," she
replied, "It wasn't just me" and she told me her son had hated it too
and had quit after the first lesson and people had told her she was
silly for throwing away money after she'd paid for six lessons.
Bob
>When my son Patrick was in school and became chronically unhappy, by
> The quote below is from outside the list, but I'm bringing it here,
> and my initial response. I might bring more of that side mail, but it
> was very VERY long, and was about particular people and details
> without having been reduced to the basic ideas and principles.
> (That's why the mom didn't send it to the list; it was too long.)
>
> One point is important to make frequently, though, so I've brought it
> in public and invite other comments on this idea and anything else
> that comes up about it.
> =============================================
>
> -=- Unfortunately, I could not pull him out of the school, because the
> school requires that we sign a contract that says we have to stay for
> the whole schoolyear. If for some reason, we cannot, then we have to
> continue paying the monthly tuition till schoolyear's end.-=-
>
>
> If you had bought a gallon of something that turned out to be spoiled,
> or poison, would you have said "I could not stop giving him the
> scheduled doses, because we had already paid for a gallon"?
>
>
the time my wife and I decided to take him out of school there were
only seven weeks remaining to the end of the school year. At a
meeting with his teacher and the school counsellor a few days after
the decision, we agreed as a courtesy to the school that Patrick
would complete the year.
It was a totally stupid agreement. The final seven weeks turned out
to be very tough for both Patrick and myself - I was the one who was
taking him to school every morning and picking him up in the
afternoon, plus I was in school for at least some of the time every
day for "moral support" in one way or another - morning assembly,
helping with the reading program and in the canteen, whatever it
took. It was a huge, huge effort that took massive doses of "positive
thinking" to cope with and it was all totally UNNECESSARY. We went
through it because *I* decided to honour the agreement I'd made. It
didn't matter to anybody else, they just got on with their lives.
Even when it got tough, I didn't have the sense to think, "Maybe we
ought to forget what we agreed to and quit right now." What an idiot.
Absolutely, if I had my time over again, I wouldn't even have
bothered with a meeting with the school's representatives after the
decision to remove my son had been made; I would have taken Patrick
out of school on the day and too bad if the school didn't like it.
Anyway, I'm probably adequately "deschooled" these days ("Schools?
Yeah, don't *they* have an overinflated sense of their importance in
the world?") and I've been able to make it up to my son and more and
we're both over it (we had the conversation a few years ago).
The year after my son quit school, a local karate club was recruiting
new members and Patrick was curious so my wife and I signed him up
for a trial period that cost $120 (a non-refundable deal). I took him
along to the first evening's class - which, as it happens, was in the
assembly hall at his former school - and the guy running the class
had all the kids lined up and doing drills and was shouting out his
instructions like a sergeant-major, and I'm thinking, "Hmm ... I
wonder if Patrick is going to take to this". Patrick didn't like it
at all. So he quit after the first lesson. My wife and I simply wrote
off the $120. We'd learned our lesson. LOL
Interestingly, not long afterwards, I ran into the mother of one of
the boys in that introductory karate class who was also an
ex-classmate of Patrick's, in my local supermarket. She asked me if
Patrick was still doing the karate. "No," I said, "He hated it. He
never went back after that first lesson." "Oh, thank goodness," she
replied, "It wasn't just me" and she told me her son had hated it too
and had quit after the first lesson and people had told her she was
silly for throwing away money after she'd paid for six lessons.
Bob
kelly_sturman
--- In [email protected], "Bob Collier" <bobcollier@...> wrote:
to have an experience. If the experience doesn't feel positive, that
doesn't mean the money wasn't well spent. If a child knows after
one or two classes, or two years of classes, "Hey, I'm not digging this at all..."
then great! The opportunity served its purpose.
I do prefer it when folks let you take a trial class (or two),
or are willing to refund money if find the activity "working"
for you, but not everybody operates that way, so sometimes
you just have to take a chance and see what happens.
Kelly Sturman
> and she told me her son had hated it tooPeople don't understand that you are paying for the *opportunity*
> and had quit after the first lesson and people had told her she was
> silly for throwing away money after she'd paid for six lessons.
>
> Bob
to have an experience. If the experience doesn't feel positive, that
doesn't mean the money wasn't well spent. If a child knows after
one or two classes, or two years of classes, "Hey, I'm not digging this at all..."
then great! The opportunity served its purpose.
I do prefer it when folks let you take a trial class (or two),
or are willing to refund money if find the activity "working"
for you, but not everybody operates that way, so sometimes
you just have to take a chance and see what happens.
Kelly Sturman
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<> I do prefer it when folks let you take a trial class (or two),
afterwards" that is sometimes said to kids - it can discourage them from
wanting to try the new activity. I think it takes active thinking on the
adult part to overcome that feeling.
Jayn also freely left a dance class that she was unhappy with after just
three lessons, with no refunds. She still talks about why it didn't work for
her, and contrasts it with how happy she is with her other dance class.
I'm not sure if it was said, but has Miguel (I think the op's child's name)
himself asked to come home, or is it entirely parental discomfort with the
drama in the playground?
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
> or are willing to refund money if find the activity "working"That "no refunds" can be seen as the adult version of "you have to clean up
> for you, but not everybody operates that way, so sometimes
> you just have to take a chance and see what happens.>>>
afterwards" that is sometimes said to kids - it can discourage them from
wanting to try the new activity. I think it takes active thinking on the
adult part to overcome that feeling.
Jayn also freely left a dance class that she was unhappy with after just
three lessons, with no refunds. She still talks about why it didn't work for
her, and contrasts it with how happy she is with her other dance class.
I'm not sure if it was said, but has Miguel (I think the op's child's name)
himself asked to come home, or is it entirely parental discomfort with the
drama in the playground?
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Verna
> Interestingly, not long afterwards, I ran into the mother of one ofTwo weeks ago our 6 year old backed out of 2 different activities in one week that he had wanted to sign up for (swimming, which I wrote about on here and soccer). He had been so excited about both. We never really got a reason but he told a friend later that the last time he took swimming "they tortured him" and he wasnt going to let that happen again. I am not sure about soccer.. he has always liked it.
> the boys in that introductory karate class who was also an
> ex-classmate of Patrick's, in my local supermarket. She asked me if
> Patrick was still doing the karate. "No," I said, "He hated it. He
> never went back after that first lesson." "Oh, thank goodness," she
> replied, "It wasn't just me" and she told me her son had hated it too
> and had quit after the first lesson and people had told her she was
> silly for throwing away money after she'd paid for six lessons.
>
> Bob
>
Anyway, I was concerned about the money at first and I was actually able to get some of the swimming money credited back for future lessons for other family members. But, by the time I called about it had decided it wasnt important.
The night he went to soccer and decided not to play, an acquantance had a son there who didnt want to either. They dragged him onto the field, where he screamed till they dragged him home. Yelling at him that he was ruining their family dinner by not playing and they were not going to get pizza now.
Kind of put it all in perspective for me.
diana jenner
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:05 PM, <hunnybunnies5@...> wrote:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
for FREE! <3
oooooh, I followed the Internet Archive link -- it's downloading now, for
placement on the MP3 player later today!!! Sandra & Richard are coming with
me and Charlie on our walks :)
Have I said thanks yet this year, Sandra? THANKS!! :D
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Parenting Peacefully is available here (at the bottom of the page)
>
> >> Listening to Parenting Peacefully is my #1 recommendation
>
> Where can I get this audiotape?
>
>
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
for FREE! <3
oooooh, I followed the Internet Archive link -- it's downloading now, for
placement on the MP3 player later today!!! Sandra & Richard are coming with
me and Charlie on our walks :)
Have I said thanks yet this year, Sandra? THANKS!! :D
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-They dragged him onto the field, where he screamed till they
dragged him home. Yelling at him that he was ruining their family
dinner by not playing and they were not going to get pizza now.
Kind of put it all in perspective for me.-=-
Wow.
When people treat their dogs that way, the dogs become sad, irritating
barkers and biters.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dragged him home. Yelling at him that he was ruining their family
dinner by not playing and they were not going to get pizza now.
Kind of put it all in perspective for me.-=-
Wow.
When people treat their dogs that way, the dogs become sad, irritating
barkers and biters.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>Chamille seems to attract kids that are broken and hurt. She has made
> Wow.
> When people treat their dogs that way, the dogs become sad, irritating
> barkers and biters.
>
this analogy several times! She went so far as to say, a dog can
sometimes even get away, or go to the humane society and have a chance
at a better life, but kids, no, kids can't. They are stuck with their
abusers, and let's just call that what it is, it is abuse, and their
only recourse is running away, which is even worse, or foster care,
which may or may not be better or lasting.
Animals get treated better than a lot of kids do. It's heart breaking,
and very close to my heart right now. (I probably shouldn't write about
this in my current state of thinking about it) So, I'll leave it at
that!
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "Verna" <lalow@...> wrote:
wrote about on here and soccer). He had been so excited about both.
We never really got a reason but he told a friend later that the
last time he took swimming "they tortured him" and he wasnt going to
let that happen again. I am not sure about soccer.. he has always
liked it.
lessons for other family members. But, by the time I called about it
had decided it wasnt important.
field, where he screamed till they dragged him home. Yelling at him
that he was ruining their family dinner by not playing and they were
not going to get pizza now.
After he left school, he played baseball for a couple of years with a
local club. His team would play a match on Saturday mornings and
practice on Thursday evenings. Most of the practice consisted of
drilling in the various techniques. Patrick just wanted to play
baseball and wasn't very keen on spending time throwing a baseball to
a partner over and over again or jogging around the playing field and
things like that.
One time in his second year, when Patrick was playing for the under
10s, there was a recruitment drive to get more 7-10 year olds
interested in playing. It was to run for one half term on Tuesday
evenings and was sponsored and free, so no money involved, and there
was an incentive of a free (sponsor labelled) backpack and an MLB cap
and t-shirt. Pat was told that if he came along to this he could skip
the Thursday practices, and that it would be just playing baseball,
giving newbies a chance to get a feel for the game (nothing to put
them off, like drills and such!).
So, Patrick thought that was a pretty good deal, playing baseball
twice a week and no drills. We came along to the first week, Patrick
with his glove and in his club uniform, he got his free backpack and
a Cardinals cap and t-shirt, and all the kids took to the field. But,
of course, this was baseball for the benefit of total beginners, so
the coach set up the tee for T-ball. On seeing that, Patrick walked
off the field.
I was sitting on one of the benches and he came and sat down next to
me and said he thought he would be playing baseball, he wasn't going
to play T-ball and he wanted to go home (when he'd been a beginner,
his team coach had pitched to the batters underarm, so he'd never
used a tee and I guess he thought T-ball was baseball for babies).
Anyway, the guy running the evening followed Patrick over and asked
him what the problem was. Patrick told him he'd come to play baseball
and wasn't going to play T-ball. So the guy was saying something
like, "Come on, you went to all the trouble of getting dressed up in
your uniform and you're here now, so you don't want to miss all the
fun, do you?". He looked at me anticipating I would back him up, but
I looked up at him and said very pointedly, "He said he's not playing
T-ball." So the guy stopped talking, kind of shrugged and walked away
and Patrick and I went home, no questions asked. I felt really quite
good about both of us.
Thanks for reminding me. :-)
Bob
>in one week that he had wanted to sign up for (swimming, which I
> > Interestingly, not long afterwards, I ran into the mother of one of
> > the boys in that introductory karate class who was also an
> > ex-classmate of Patrick's, in my local supermarket. She asked me if
> > Patrick was still doing the karate. "No," I said, "He hated it. He
> > never went back after that first lesson." "Oh, thank goodness," she
> > replied, "It wasn't just me" and she told me her son had hated it too
> > and had quit after the first lesson and people had told her she was
> > silly for throwing away money after she'd paid for six lessons.
> >
> > Bob
> >
>
> Two weeks ago our 6 year old backed out of 2 different activities
wrote about on here and soccer). He had been so excited about both.
We never really got a reason but he told a friend later that the
last time he took swimming "they tortured him" and he wasnt going to
let that happen again. I am not sure about soccer.. he has always
liked it.
> Anyway, I was concerned about the money at first and I was actuallyable to get some of the swimming money credited back for future
lessons for other family members. But, by the time I called about it
had decided it wasnt important.
> The night he went to soccer and decided not to play, an acquantancehad a son there who didnt want to either. They dragged him onto the
field, where he screamed till they dragged him home. Yelling at him
that he was ruining their family dinner by not playing and they were
not going to get pizza now.
> Kind of put it all in perspective for me.Oh, that reminds me of another incident with my son.
>
After he left school, he played baseball for a couple of years with a
local club. His team would play a match on Saturday mornings and
practice on Thursday evenings. Most of the practice consisted of
drilling in the various techniques. Patrick just wanted to play
baseball and wasn't very keen on spending time throwing a baseball to
a partner over and over again or jogging around the playing field and
things like that.
One time in his second year, when Patrick was playing for the under
10s, there was a recruitment drive to get more 7-10 year olds
interested in playing. It was to run for one half term on Tuesday
evenings and was sponsored and free, so no money involved, and there
was an incentive of a free (sponsor labelled) backpack and an MLB cap
and t-shirt. Pat was told that if he came along to this he could skip
the Thursday practices, and that it would be just playing baseball,
giving newbies a chance to get a feel for the game (nothing to put
them off, like drills and such!).
So, Patrick thought that was a pretty good deal, playing baseball
twice a week and no drills. We came along to the first week, Patrick
with his glove and in his club uniform, he got his free backpack and
a Cardinals cap and t-shirt, and all the kids took to the field. But,
of course, this was baseball for the benefit of total beginners, so
the coach set up the tee for T-ball. On seeing that, Patrick walked
off the field.
I was sitting on one of the benches and he came and sat down next to
me and said he thought he would be playing baseball, he wasn't going
to play T-ball and he wanted to go home (when he'd been a beginner,
his team coach had pitched to the batters underarm, so he'd never
used a tee and I guess he thought T-ball was baseball for babies).
Anyway, the guy running the evening followed Patrick over and asked
him what the problem was. Patrick told him he'd come to play baseball
and wasn't going to play T-ball. So the guy was saying something
like, "Come on, you went to all the trouble of getting dressed up in
your uniform and you're here now, so you don't want to miss all the
fun, do you?". He looked at me anticipating I would back him up, but
I looked up at him and said very pointedly, "He said he's not playing
T-ball." So the guy stopped talking, kind of shrugged and walked away
and Patrick and I went home, no questions asked. I felt really quite
good about both of us.
Thanks for reminding me. :-)
Bob