Jennifer Varela

>
> >>>>I think this happens more on local lists because people are willing to
> live and let live to have some companionship for themselves and their
> kids. You get a lot more of that mindset of "unschooling is whatever
> you make it to be" and "unschooling one's unique family" and all those
> other vagueries. <<<


I have this on a local list right now. In fact, within the last week the
subject has come up again and 3 of us have pointed out that we should be
helping others learn about Unschooling, not supporting them where they
are. Our main issue is that it's the list owner who picks apart
Unschooler's responses because she has resentment from someone being "mean"
to her on a list in the past (she is never specific about who or what list)
and she wants her list to have more hand holding. It's hard to stick
around and constantly defend Unschooling on an Unschooling list. However,
because it is advertised as an Unschooling list for the entire state, there
are a couple of us who feel we should stick it out and at least try and help
keep it geared towards Unschooling.

JenV


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Sandra Dodd

-=- It's hard to stick
around and constantly defend Unschooling on an Unschooling list.
However,
because it is advertised as an Unschooling list for the entire state,
there
are a couple of us who feel we should stick it out and at least try
and help
keep it geared towards Unschooling.-=-

Can you at least put links to Joyce's or my stuff in sometimes?
Probably you do...
Or could you say vaguely "Sometimes that can make unschooling harder"
and then follow with a link?

Sandra

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Jenny C

It's hard to stick
> around and constantly defend Unschooling on an Unschooling list.
However,
> because it is advertised as an Unschooling list for the entire state,
there
> are a couple of us who feel we should stick it out and at least try
and help
> keep it geared towards Unschooling.
>


You could start another list and invite people to it. When this
happened on our local list, it was almost the exact same kind of thing.
Someone started a new list. I joined that one and stopped visiting the
other. Ultimately what it did, was seperate out who I wanted to invest
my friendship energy with and I found some really amazing people because
of that. I could have continued on the other list and accepted outings
with some of those other folks and tolerated all the food control and
such, but I'm getting older and my kids are getting older and I want
people right here and now that I connect with and can talk to about
unschooling and know that we are mostly on the same page.

It doesn't mean that I have no tolerance for people new to unschooling
and trying to understand it, it only means that I don't want to get into
discourse with local people who aren't getting it and are very stubborn
and borderline rude about their personal stance on unschooling. I'd
much rather hang out with people who are actively searching for more
understanding, which is what I do, or people who have no pretense of
understanding something that they don't, like some of my older friends
who have kids in school, yet I love them just the way they are. I can
totally deal with "live and let live". I can't deal with some of the
weirdness that happens on local unschooling lists. I'll just leave it
at that, weirdness, because I don't know what else to call it.

If someone who knew next to nothing about art, went to an art opening
and started critiquing all the art with the goal of doing a write up for
the local newspaper, it would be annoying and apparent to anyone who
knew anything about art, that the person didn't know what they were
talking about. That's a little analogy about some people on local
unschooling lists, only the people aren't critiquing art and writing
about it, they are "educating" children and writing about it.

Jennifer Varela

>
> >>>You could start another list and invite people to it. <<<
>


We actually did do this. It's going pretty well, slow going since it's a
fairly new list, but, I think it's doing OK. I understand about
wanting that connection. Even on the local lists, there aren't many people
in my particular area. I feel like I don't have the time or energy at the
moment, but at some point in the future I'd like to plan local Unschooling
get togethers and maybe some others would come out of the woodwork. I'm
guessing just because they don't post, doesn't mean they aren't there, kwim?

JenV


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Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<> Can you at least put links to Joyce's or my stuff in sometimes?
> Probably you do...
> Or could you say vaguely "Sometimes that can make unschooling harder"
> and then follow with a link?>>>

Rarely, really rarely, I have said something like "if you posted that
question to one of the national lists (and I might name a couple) you would
probably get a response like xxxxx" and follow with one of my own stories
and usually a link. I tend to say those kinds of words in real life
conversations more often than on local lists, and anyway I am on "special
announcments" on most of my local lists anyway. I will send people links
after a conversation. Most of the time there is "yes but..." I've quoted
Sandra's time spent graph a lot!

People really want to think that their children are different and special.
Not different and special in a positive way as unique interests and
personality, but too different from other unschooling children for
unschooling to work for their children.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Jill Parmer

> -=- It's hard to stick
> around and constantly defend Unschooling on an Unschooling list.
> However,
> because it is advertised as an Unschooling list for the entire state,
> there
> are a couple of us who feel we should stick it out and at least try
> and help
> keep it geared towards Unschooling.-=-
>
> Can you at least put links to Joyce's or my stuff in sometimes?
> Probably you do...
> Or could you say vaguely "Sometimes that can make unschooling harder"
> and then follow with a link?


I'm on two local unschooling lists; on one (the one I started after
the 2003 Live and Learn conference, excited and zealous about finding
other unschoolers) I'm the only one who speaks to unschooling
principles that we talk about here. And the outcome has been that
quite a few people don't like me or are afraid of me or gravitate
toward the people that hold their hands.

The other list was started by a woman on the above list who didn't
get unschooling, but wanted a group in her area. That list grew
relative large in number because it was closer to a metropolitan
area, and I think possible because it's near a city known for it's
progressive and non-mainstream ways. Like Jenny wrote earlier,
there's just weirdness on the list. But there are a couple others on
the list who are willing to speak up the principles of unschooling
(not surprising, they also write and read here).

When these lists started, I think people wanted the meaty discussion
that goes on on international lists and real life unschoolers to play
with. I certainly had the misguided idea that I'd find families
instantly that unschooled like the experienced and prolific writers
on the discussion lists.

Knowing what I know now, I encourage people to discuss at the
international lists, and give links to Sandra's and Joyce's sites.
I'm working to combine our local lists and nudge them toward get
togethers.

I remember Joyce saying that local lists would be better for get
togethers and the international lists are better for discussion,
because it's easy for people to get offended in discussions and maybe
more hurtful if you know them in real life, and you get many more
voices and experience on international discussion lists.

When we were talking about where people are getting misconceptions of
unschooling on this list a while ago, I went back and read through
what I wrote on our local lists to see if I was adding to that
problem. In the early days my writing was more a parroting of what I
read on international lists. (I'm rather ashamed of that, but I was
glad to read that I wasn't spreading misconceptions.) Although I
fear a bit that people might think unschoolers are hard or mean,
because I've been willing to say some things people might not want to
hear, and not give hand holding support <http://sandradodd.com/
support/> on the local lists.

~Jill



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Jill Parmer

Darn, that didn't format correctly.

http://sandradodd.com/support/

On Mar 28, 2009, at 9:18 AM, Jill Parmer wrote:

> hand holding support <http://sandradodd.com/
> support/>



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k

>>>> People really want to think that their children are different and
special.
Not different and special in a positive way as unique interests and
personality, but too different from other unschooling children for
unschooling to work for their children. <<<<

There's that.

And then there's something else: replace the last two words in the above
quote with "them" and all other instance of the words"their children" or
"children" with "the other parent," and you get another reason people find
unschooling difficult and unworkable.

It's takes a lot of reassurance just for their own selves --by doing
unschooling-- before people can see a friendly face in unschooling within
their own families. It's not as easy for some as for others and I think
it's rarely automatic, although it can get easier and easier and then
actually just easy for many people. (If it was too hard, I wouldn't have
been able to implement unschooling in my family, but I'm one of those that
it took years to accomplish. It's not just easy yet for us but it's
definitely at the "easier and easier" stage now.)

For lotsa people, it takes years, not a few weeks or months to get used to.
People think they're in for an "oil change" so to speak and for some it's an
"overhaul."

Links are a great way to increase familiarity and decrease discomfort about
unschooling.

Since so many people don't feel it's moral or useful or interesting to read
the bigger lists enough to support their unschooling choice with reassurance
about how it works, links in a local list might be the only things they'll
take a few moments to click and read.

~Katherine


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k

>>>> local lists would be better for get
togethers and the international lists are better for discussion,
because it's easy for people to get offended in discussions and maybe
more hurtful if you know them in real life, and you get many more
voices and experience on international discussion lists. <<<<

I thought it was "silly" for local lists folks to not discuss unschooling
more but I understand better now. Some things really are better with
distance and lots and lots of people from all over the globe, talking about
their unschooling experience. It's harder to gainsay that many people. And
the difference between ourselves and our nearer neighbors may not be as
great as we first think.

If it's just somebody saying something unusual at a group meetup or
playdate, that's one thing. But if it's said many times over on an
international list, that could give more reason to consider what's being
said.

~Katherine


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Jenny C

> If it's just somebody saying something unusual at a group meetup or
> playdate, that's one thing. But if it's said many times over on an
> international list, that could give more reason to consider what's
being
> said.
>


Unless the person really doesn't want to consider the fact that they
just might be wrong about something! Sometimes it's like being the big
fish in the small pond vs. being the small fish in the big pond. Some
people, and this is what I've seen on some local lists, want to be a big
fish, and are very vocal about their ideas. However, they don't bring
those ideas to the big pond because they don't want those ideas
criticized or shot down.

They hide under the umbrella of "this is working for my unique family
and how dare you say you know better than I what is good for my unique
family." or the "unschooling spectrum", which is just another way of
sticking to ones' comfort zone by not having to change their thinking
about unschooling, or the possibility that they could be wrong about
something they were so vocally upholding. To me, that is arrogance,
plain and simple.

Unschooling message boards have been very humbling for me, when I've
caught myself being wrong about a long held assumption or belief. I
really only write up ideas if I "know" I'm thinking about it clearly,
and if I'm not, then it's nice to have others say something to let me
know where I may be stumbling. Like in the thread about
intellectualism, if you can't say what you are doing and believing in
clear words, then you don't know it well enough. I don't reply to every
subject line because some things, I feel, I don't know well enough to
give a helpful response. I let other people do that and read and learn
from those responses.

Local lists aren't like that though. There are so few people that
really get unschooling nationally and internationally, and even fewer in
ones' own community. I've been fortunate enough to meet a few in my own
community, largely by speaking my mind on local lists and having people
write to me on the side. I figured those were the folks to invest my
friendship energy on! Some of them joined this list because of local
list chaos and unschooling confusion!

Sandra Dodd

-=-People think they're in for an "oil change" so to speak and for
some it's an "overhaul."-=-

I've never thought of it this way before. I think lots of them don't
even think they need an oil change; they think it's a drive-through
car show and we'll all say "Oooooh! Shiny!"

They say "Here's my car; I'm off to the unschooling races!" (as it were)
and someone might say "You're totally polluting, and furthermore you
won't make it back to your house."

Or "Have you noticed your backseat passengers are crying and begging
and clawing to get out?"

"Ooooh! Shiny!" is no good, though, even about an oooh-shiny
situation. What would help more there is "How did you get it that
shiny? We'd like to do it more that way too!"

Sandra




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