Help! My son is failing and miserable
ryan free
Hi All, I am new to this group so would like to introduce myself and
explain why I am here. Sorry this is going to take many words but WE
need Help!
My name is Kara, I'm married for 17 years and we have 3 children. We
live in Memphis which has a very troubled school system. We've been
lucky to have our children at the University school for Elementary
school. Our Daughter is now in 10th grade in an optional program.
Optional programs are small sub- programs within the public schools.
To get into an optional program you must qualify, usally with an A- B
average and scores in the 80th percentile in reading and Math on the
National tests. My daughter qualified and she "fits" the system, as
in: school is important to her, getting good grades.....and so forth.
My youngest is still in Elementary and although he qualifies for the
optional program in our district there are only 20 available openings
now for middle school and probably a couple hundred trying to get in.
If one is to attend public school in Memphis, one prefers the
optional, it is safer, more organized, and the kids in the program
enjoy school and are committed, and the program offers a wide variety
of learning opportunities.
My Middle son is the reason why I write. He missed the qualification
for the optional program by only a few points, and there are no
exceptions. We placed him in a catholic school because it was a
private school we could afford and he knew several children
attending, the regular public program was not an option for us at the
time because of the dangerous setting (weapons and violence in the
schools other discipline problems). We hoped it would be an easy
transition.
It has been anything but easy. My child went from a well liked by
the teachers, never in trouble" A, B student to a student who is
constantly getting in trouble for ridiculous things, and
flunking....Now the school wants us to test him for ADHD.... I feel
like the school should be tested for abuse and neglect.... but
getting back on point.. I've seen enough documentaries now on the
push to test and drug children that it scares the H--- out of me.
And I don't believe this is the case with my child anyway. Why would
this show up suddenly when he turns 13. I think that the experience
of going to a highly structured, program where everything is learned
through strict memorization, there is little time for physical
activity, and socializing and punishment for things like dropping
your pencil on the ground has caused him to lose all motivation for
school. My Husband and I are very relaxed in our parenting, we
rarely punish, All I have ever cared about is my children's honesty.
Our son, I will admit, is a dreamer, an artist like myself. When we
like something we are a genius in the field, when we don't have an
interest we have no desire to pursue it or try. I was not interested
in school as a child, but I had many interests, and I did very well
in the things I liked, Just like my son.
Since this awful school experience, we see our son responding with
anger, frustration, lack of motivation, and withdrawal, all things
that break my heart. All I want is for my children to be Happy, to
feel joy in their heart and this school year for him has been only
one struggle after another.
I've started investigating other possibilities, and I came across
Unschooling. My son has been asking for a couple of months now to be
homeschooled, but I have been afraid that I can't help him like he
will need in academics, or he will not have the motivation necessary
to stick with it. My husband being a College professor with a DR in
Neuro- Biology feels very strong about College education for his
kids.. I am not as opinionated.
Seeing the change in him with lack of motivation, and now frustration
and anger, I am also afraid to give him the responsibility that
unschooling requires. Then there are the laws about truancy....
He has already stated that when he turns 16 he is dropping out.
I do not have the unschooled mindset yet, but I do have a bone to
pick with public education and our American education system in
general. It is Authoritarian, it is turning our kids into mind
controlled robots, who are told what to do and how to think, who are
fed information that serves little, useless facts that are forgotten
soon after the test....
So, I'm looking for ideas, facts, similar experiences and actions
taken. And resources on how Unschooling works. I know there are a
lot of homeschoolers here in Memphis, but I am not interested in a
Religious affiliation. Homeschooling in Memphis is all associated
with Christianity. My philosophy is more in line with Zen Buddhism
although I am not part of any religious organization.
Thank you!
I look forward to all responses!
Kara,
oh and I am not familiar with all the abbreviations used in this
forum, maybe someone can fill me in.
explain why I am here. Sorry this is going to take many words but WE
need Help!
My name is Kara, I'm married for 17 years and we have 3 children. We
live in Memphis which has a very troubled school system. We've been
lucky to have our children at the University school for Elementary
school. Our Daughter is now in 10th grade in an optional program.
Optional programs are small sub- programs within the public schools.
To get into an optional program you must qualify, usally with an A- B
average and scores in the 80th percentile in reading and Math on the
National tests. My daughter qualified and she "fits" the system, as
in: school is important to her, getting good grades.....and so forth.
My youngest is still in Elementary and although he qualifies for the
optional program in our district there are only 20 available openings
now for middle school and probably a couple hundred trying to get in.
If one is to attend public school in Memphis, one prefers the
optional, it is safer, more organized, and the kids in the program
enjoy school and are committed, and the program offers a wide variety
of learning opportunities.
My Middle son is the reason why I write. He missed the qualification
for the optional program by only a few points, and there are no
exceptions. We placed him in a catholic school because it was a
private school we could afford and he knew several children
attending, the regular public program was not an option for us at the
time because of the dangerous setting (weapons and violence in the
schools other discipline problems). We hoped it would be an easy
transition.
It has been anything but easy. My child went from a well liked by
the teachers, never in trouble" A, B student to a student who is
constantly getting in trouble for ridiculous things, and
flunking....Now the school wants us to test him for ADHD.... I feel
like the school should be tested for abuse and neglect.... but
getting back on point.. I've seen enough documentaries now on the
push to test and drug children that it scares the H--- out of me.
And I don't believe this is the case with my child anyway. Why would
this show up suddenly when he turns 13. I think that the experience
of going to a highly structured, program where everything is learned
through strict memorization, there is little time for physical
activity, and socializing and punishment for things like dropping
your pencil on the ground has caused him to lose all motivation for
school. My Husband and I are very relaxed in our parenting, we
rarely punish, All I have ever cared about is my children's honesty.
Our son, I will admit, is a dreamer, an artist like myself. When we
like something we are a genius in the field, when we don't have an
interest we have no desire to pursue it or try. I was not interested
in school as a child, but I had many interests, and I did very well
in the things I liked, Just like my son.
Since this awful school experience, we see our son responding with
anger, frustration, lack of motivation, and withdrawal, all things
that break my heart. All I want is for my children to be Happy, to
feel joy in their heart and this school year for him has been only
one struggle after another.
I've started investigating other possibilities, and I came across
Unschooling. My son has been asking for a couple of months now to be
homeschooled, but I have been afraid that I can't help him like he
will need in academics, or he will not have the motivation necessary
to stick with it. My husband being a College professor with a DR in
Neuro- Biology feels very strong about College education for his
kids.. I am not as opinionated.
Seeing the change in him with lack of motivation, and now frustration
and anger, I am also afraid to give him the responsibility that
unschooling requires. Then there are the laws about truancy....
He has already stated that when he turns 16 he is dropping out.
I do not have the unschooled mindset yet, but I do have a bone to
pick with public education and our American education system in
general. It is Authoritarian, it is turning our kids into mind
controlled robots, who are told what to do and how to think, who are
fed information that serves little, useless facts that are forgotten
soon after the test....
So, I'm looking for ideas, facts, similar experiences and actions
taken. And resources on how Unschooling works. I know there are a
lot of homeschoolers here in Memphis, but I am not interested in a
Religious affiliation. Homeschooling in Memphis is all associated
with Christianity. My philosophy is more in line with Zen Buddhism
although I am not part of any religious organization.
Thank you!
I look forward to all responses!
Kara,
oh and I am not familiar with all the abbreviations used in this
forum, maybe someone can fill me in.
Sandra Dodd
Kara,
If you happen to be still sitting here and reading, there's an online
chat soon with a mom whose husband is a professor at a medical school
in England. That might be a way for you to jump over to something
that will give you confidence.
http://sandradodd.com/chats/schuylergames
If you go there, just read, probably, because your questions are so
raw yet.
This site is written by someone who was an engineer before she stayed
home with her daughter. Her husband is a college professor:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
Pam Sorooshian teaches college economics:
http://sandradodd.com/pamsorooshian
There's much more you could benefit from reading, but if you start
there, you'll bypass the concern that we're some other non-academic
species of people, and that might help you have the confidence to
continue to look into unschooling.
And private schools cost money. The money you spend on that, you
could go travelling with your son--not all of Asia, but overnight
trips to other states to see or do cool things. He probably needs
time to talk and unwind and find joy in learning.
Sandra
If you happen to be still sitting here and reading, there's an online
chat soon with a mom whose husband is a professor at a medical school
in England. That might be a way for you to jump over to something
that will give you confidence.
http://sandradodd.com/chats/schuylergames
If you go there, just read, probably, because your questions are so
raw yet.
This site is written by someone who was an engineer before she stayed
home with her daughter. Her husband is a college professor:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
Pam Sorooshian teaches college economics:
http://sandradodd.com/pamsorooshian
There's much more you could benefit from reading, but if you start
there, you'll bypass the concern that we're some other non-academic
species of people, and that might help you have the confidence to
continue to look into unschooling.
And private schools cost money. The money you spend on that, you
could go travelling with your son--not all of Asia, but overnight
trips to other states to see or do cool things. He probably needs
time to talk and unwind and find joy in learning.
Sandra
ryan free
Thanks Sandra,
I've looked at your site extensively, took me most of Sunday, and
enjoyed it and absorbed plenty, much of our parenting is similar to
yours....I just don't know how to begin,
I will check out the chat.
Thanks,
Kara
I've looked at your site extensively, took me most of Sunday, and
enjoyed it and absorbed plenty, much of our parenting is similar to
yours....I just don't know how to begin,
I will check out the chat.
Thanks,
Kara
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Kara,
>
> If you happen to be still sitting here and reading, there's an
online
> chat soon with a mom whose husband is a professor at a medical
school
> in England. That might be a way for you to jump over to something
> that will give you confidence.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/chats/schuylergames
> If you go there, just read, probably, because your questions are
so
> raw yet.
>
> This site is written by someone who was an engineer before she
stayed
> home with her daughter. Her husband is a college professor:
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
>
> Pam Sorooshian teaches college economics:
> http://sandradodd.com/pamsorooshian
>
> There's much more you could benefit from reading, but if you start
> there, you'll bypass the concern that we're some other non-
academic
> species of people, and that might help you have the confidence to
> continue to look into unschooling.
>
> And private schools cost money. The money you spend on that, you
> could go travelling with your son--not all of Asia, but overnight
> trips to other states to see or do cool things. He probably needs
> time to talk and unwind and find joy in learning.
>
> Sandra
>
Joanna Murphy
"Seeing the change in him with lack of motivation, and now frustration
and anger,"
Check out Alfie Kohn, Punished By Rewards, for a good look at what
rewards and punishments really do for intrinsic motivation, which is
what we all want our children to find, right? So if you are seeing
the opposite of what you want for your son, you need to do the
opposite of what the schools are doing to help him find it.
"I am also afraid to give him the responsibility that
have responsibility and the opportunity to make meaningful choices for
themselves. Yet that isn't how we treat children in the society in
general and in school in particular--quite the opposite!
You will see lots of testimonials, as you read things on Sandra's and
others' sites about unschooling, regarding the importance of helping
young people connect with their own passions--and this is the source
of motivation for people--connection to passion and purpose.
In my opinion, a person cannot connect with their own sense of
responsibility if they have no sense of empowerment in their lives.
Joanna
Then there are the laws about truancy....
and anger,"
Check out Alfie Kohn, Punished By Rewards, for a good look at what
rewards and punishments really do for intrinsic motivation, which is
what we all want our children to find, right? So if you are seeing
the opposite of what you want for your son, you need to do the
opposite of what the schools are doing to help him find it.
"I am also afraid to give him the responsibility that
> unschooling requires."But in order for children to grow into responsible adults, they must
have responsibility and the opportunity to make meaningful choices for
themselves. Yet that isn't how we treat children in the society in
general and in school in particular--quite the opposite!
You will see lots of testimonials, as you read things on Sandra's and
others' sites about unschooling, regarding the importance of helping
young people connect with their own passions--and this is the source
of motivation for people--connection to passion and purpose.
In my opinion, a person cannot connect with their own sense of
responsibility if they have no sense of empowerment in their lives.
Joanna
Then there are the laws about truancy....
> He has already stated that when he turns 16 he is dropping out.
> I do not have the unschooled mindset yet, but I do have a bone to
> pick with public education and our American education system in
> general. It is Authoritarian, it is turning our kids into mind
> controlled robots, who are told what to do and how to think, who are
> fed information that serves little, useless facts that are forgotten
> soon after the test....
> So, I'm looking for ideas, facts, similar experiences and actions
> taken. And resources on how Unschooling works. I know there are a
> lot of homeschoolers here in Memphis, but I am not interested in a
> Religious affiliation. Homeschooling in Memphis is all associated
> with Christianity. My philosophy is more in line with Zen Buddhism
> although I am not part of any religious organization.
> Thank you!
> I look forward to all responses!
>
> Kara,
>
> oh and I am not familiar with all the abbreviations used in this
> forum, maybe someone can fill me in.
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-"I am also afraid to give him the responsibility that unschooling
requires." -=-
The way we unschooled at our house, our children didn't have
"responsibility." Responsibility for what? I took responsibility.
I made sure their lives were busy and stimulating, safe and warm.
They learned lots more often and better than they would have in
school, and as the years went by they learned more and more, while
kids in school determined never to learn anything they didn't "have
to" learn ever again as long as they lived. Even those who go to
college tend to do just as little as they "have to" to make the grades
necessary to keep a scholarship or to keep parents from pulling the
plug.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
requires." -=-
The way we unschooled at our house, our children didn't have
"responsibility." Responsibility for what? I took responsibility.
I made sure their lives were busy and stimulating, safe and warm.
They learned lots more often and better than they would have in
school, and as the years went by they learned more and more, while
kids in school determined never to learn anything they didn't "have
to" learn ever again as long as they lived. Even those who go to
college tend to do just as little as they "have to" to make the grades
necessary to keep a scholarship or to keep parents from pulling the
plug.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
"responsibility" in my post, because in thinking more in this context,
I, too, am responsible for creating the environment, making it to
places on time, etc. etc. My kids don't have much "responsibility" in
that sense. And the school environment does attempt to make kids
responsible for the logistics of their lives way too early, imho.
Things like remembering homework, permission slips, etc.
But what they don't usually have is a sense of empowerment in making
the kinds of decisions and choices that are important to them.
Joanna
>Oooh--I think I should substitute the word "autonomy" instead of
> -=-"I am also afraid to give him the responsibility that unschooling
> requires." -=-
>
> The way we unschooled at our house, our children didn't have
> "responsibility." Responsibility for what? I took responsibility.
"responsibility" in my post, because in thinking more in this context,
I, too, am responsible for creating the environment, making it to
places on time, etc. etc. My kids don't have much "responsibility" in
that sense. And the school environment does attempt to make kids
responsible for the logistics of their lives way too early, imho.
Things like remembering homework, permission slips, etc.
But what they don't usually have is a sense of empowerment in making
the kinds of decisions and choices that are important to them.
Joanna
k
>>>> And the school environment does attempt to make kidsresponsible for the logistics of their lives way too early, imho.
Things like remembering homework, permission slips, etc. <<<<
>>>> But what they don't usually have is a sense of empowerment in makingthe kinds of decisions and choices that are important to them. <<<<
Giving our children freedom to choose doesn't mean to start by giving
them the keys to the city. It doesn't have to be that big of a
freedom to begin with. Start slow and let children figure out how to
use freedom a little at a time ... and develop wisdom over a period of
years. In the meantime, the parents want to shoulder the
responsibility of facilitating success as children make decisions.
Definitely don't make them fly on their own all alone in the process.
And by the time children are ready for greater freedom they'll be able
to handle it without going totally bonkers or being too scared to
think.
I *wish* my parents had done that. Really. Since they didn't allow
me much freedom in their home, by the time I left I hadn't hardly a
clue. I made mistakes which was fine but what *wasn't* so fine that
the consequences were HUGE by the time I started making decisions
independently.
It's not enough to watch other's example and follow instructions or
someone else's wisdom. Children need personal experience if they're
going to be any good at making decisions, preferably in an environment
that adults make safe ...... not children.
~Katherine
Sandra Dodd
-=Oooh--I think I should substitute the word "autonomy" instead of
"responsibility" in my post-=-
Oooh.
I don't like "autonomy" either. <g>
Seriously, why should a child whose parents consider themselves his
partners and facilitators want him to be "autonomous"? Kirby is 22
and doesn't live at home, but when he signed papers to rent a house,
he sent his brother a text message, and e-mail me photos of the house
a few hours later. If he needs us, we're here for him. We didn't
wind him up and send him away to be separate from us. My child is not
responsible for his own education, or of his own morality, so I object
to "autonomy." I'm afraid there are already too many unschooling
parents leaving their children uninspired or unattended, and
"autonomy" seems to condone that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"responsibility" in my post-=-
Oooh.
I don't like "autonomy" either. <g>
Seriously, why should a child whose parents consider themselves his
partners and facilitators want him to be "autonomous"? Kirby is 22
and doesn't live at home, but when he signed papers to rent a house,
he sent his brother a text message, and e-mail me photos of the house
a few hours later. If he needs us, we're here for him. We didn't
wind him up and send him away to be separate from us. My child is not
responsible for his own education, or of his own morality, so I object
to "autonomy." I'm afraid there are already too many unschooling
parents leaving their children uninspired or unattended, and
"autonomy" seems to condone that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
Hmmm... I'll have to think more about that. When I read what you said, I totally agree
with you, and I see how words can have different intentions behind them, and how this is
partly why there is so much confusion out there about what unschooling is.
I'm certainly not advocating anything like what you've pointed out. But i do know that my
children, and particularly my daughter, have a pretty strong need for choice and getting to
things in her own time. So that's the kind of autonomy I'm talking about--but there very
well may be a better word or way of thinking about it that doesn't create such a mental
division between parent and child.
I'll take one more stab at it--there is a place within my daughter that when she feels it
"invaded" she gets very defensive and she pulls away, but when she's given space, she
opens up and "softens." I don't know if this will make sense, but that's what I've been
thinking of as autonomy...
Joanna
with you, and I see how words can have different intentions behind them, and how this is
partly why there is so much confusion out there about what unschooling is.
I'm certainly not advocating anything like what you've pointed out. But i do know that my
children, and particularly my daughter, have a pretty strong need for choice and getting to
things in her own time. So that's the kind of autonomy I'm talking about--but there very
well may be a better word or way of thinking about it that doesn't create such a mental
division between parent and child.
I'll take one more stab at it--there is a place within my daughter that when she feels it
"invaded" she gets very defensive and she pulls away, but when she's given space, she
opens up and "softens." I don't know if this will make sense, but that's what I've been
thinking of as autonomy...
Joanna
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=Oooh--I think I should substitute the word "autonomy" instead of
> "responsibility" in my post-=-
>
> Oooh.
> I don't like "autonomy" either. <g>
>
> Seriously, why should a child whose parents consider themselves his
> partners and facilitators want him to be "autonomous"? Kirby is 22
> and doesn't live at home, but when he signed papers to rent a house,
> he sent his brother a text message, and e-mail me photos of the house
> a few hours later. If he needs us, we're here for him. We didn't
> wind him up and send him away to be separate from us. My child is not
> responsible for his own education, or of his own morality, so I object
> to "autonomy." I'm afraid there are already too many unschooling
> parents leaving their children uninspired or unattended, and
> "autonomy" seems to condone that.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/18/2009 6:36 PM, k wrote:
"privileges" when they demonstrate that they are more "responsible."
By that they seem to mean that if the kids are more obedient then
they'll trust them to be responsible, meaning to do what the parents
want them to do.
-pam
> I*wish* my parents had done that. Really. Since they didn't allowConventionally, parents will tell kids that they can have more
> me much freedom in their home, by the time I left I hadn't hardly a
> clue. I made mistakes which was fine but what*wasn't* so fine that
> the consequences were HUGE by the time I started making decisions
> independently.
>
"privileges" when they demonstrate that they are more "responsible."
By that they seem to mean that if the kids are more obedient then
they'll trust them to be responsible, meaning to do what the parents
want them to do.
-pam
ryan free
-Interesting, Coming from a spiritual place of WE ARE ALL ONE,
THE ALL IS IN THE ALL, It is very interesting to contemplate this
idea of Autonomy...
This is what life is about at one level, Discovering the self, and
creating the self, and then creating a life around this self.... So
much of who we are is based on what others believe about us, what
others tell us they think about us, what Society and families and
friends want us to be.
And as we discover the self, we forget our connectedness to each
other, we forget that there is really no separation...WE do feel
separate, we do feel like a lone entity....
Is this why we feel sometimes it is Us against them? Why we put up
boarders, Why we lock gates....
Kara
-- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
THE ALL IS IN THE ALL, It is very interesting to contemplate this
idea of Autonomy...
This is what life is about at one level, Discovering the self, and
creating the self, and then creating a life around this self.... So
much of who we are is based on what others believe about us, what
others tell us they think about us, what Society and families and
friends want us to be.
And as we discover the self, we forget our connectedness to each
other, we forget that there is really no separation...WE do feel
separate, we do feel like a lone entity....
Is this why we feel sometimes it is Us against them? Why we put up
boarders, Why we lock gates....
Kara
-- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>his
> -=Oooh--I think I should substitute the word "autonomy" instead of
> "responsibility" in my post-=-
>
> Oooh.
> I don't like "autonomy" either. <g>
>
> Seriously, why should a child whose parents consider themselves
> partners and facilitators want him to be "autonomous"? Kirby is22
> and doesn't live at home, but when he signed papers to rent ahouse,
> he sent his brother a text message, and e-mail me photos of thehouse
> a few hours later. If he needs us, we're here for him. We didn'tnot
> wind him up and send him away to be separate from us. My child is
> responsible for his own education, or of his own morality, so Iobject
> to "autonomy." I'm afraid there are already too many unschooling
> parents leaving their children uninspired or unattended, and
> "autonomy" seems to condone that.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
k
>>>> Conventionally, parents will tell kids that they can have more"privileges" when they demonstrate that they are more "responsible." <<<<
>>>> By that they seem to mean that if the kids are more obedient thenthey'll trust them to be responsible, meaning to do what the parents
want them to do. <<<<
Yes. Conventional parenting proposes to get at freedom for kids (or
at least independence, which like Sandra mentioned is not the point)
by first compelling them to listen to advice about how to be
responsible (and responsibility, as a goal linked to independence,
also misses the point).
It's like a foreign language. Few can learn just by following
someone's verbal directions. Most people learn by being immersed in
the culture and experiencing it. And it helps very much if the point
is *not* about making people independent or responsible for
information they're not understanding.
It's a silly dichotomy that following directions is in some people's
eyes obedient or good while those who learn by gaining experience
(getting their hands dirty, so to speak) risk getting tagged as
rebellious or bad.
I'm hoping that figuring out or at least facilitating the process for
Karl, I can skip all the above and provide a happy place to simply be
... where help is always at hand and nobody is making anyone figure
stuff out on their own.
*I* need help figuring stuff out. Why do I want Karl to make
decisions without help (unless he wants to)?
~Katherine
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm certainly not advocating anything like what you've pointed out.
But i do know that my
children, and particularly my daughter, have a pretty strong need for
choice and getting to
things in her own time. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/choices
That's the core of all this unschooling business, but it's not a
granulation of members of the family into unconnected entities.
As to my experience, in helping people understand unschooling, the
thing that's not good to take one's time about getting is that others
need to have choices and the freedom to take things in their own time.
http://sandradodd.com/doit
When unschooling starts, then choices and getting to things in
people's own way and time is the basis.
You perceive your daughter as having a strong need for choice. What
she doesn't have is a right to choices. If she's a minor, the parents
are legally and morally responsible for the choices she makes. So as
an unschooling parent I can choose to give my kids TONS of choices,
but not any choice in the world. I can create a space in which lots
of acceptable, safe and legal choices are available. I can maintain
(and have) an environment in which they can sleep until noon or later
and stay up as late as they want (quietly, in the house; responsibly,
out of the house, when they're older).
What I cannot do is turn to the county or the police or my neighbors
and assert that my children have the right to any of that. They
don't. I have the right to more leeway as an adult, and I have chosen
to use that to create a larger learning space for my children than
most children have. But it's mine. I'm responsible, and my husband.
When the police called and said "Do you know where your son is?" I
said he was at the gaming store or at his friend Josh's house, or some
such. The guy paused and said "what's his name?"
"Kirby."
"We're asking about Martin."
He had been pulled over for running a light. So I said yes, he was
with his friend Brett Henry, and yes that was our car, and yes it was
fine that he was out.
I think the cop had wished I had said no, because he was in the
process of intimidating and scaring them, but it really was okay that
he was out, and he was with Brett, as I'd said.
What if I'd said "We're unschoolers, and so Marty is autonomous and
can do whatever he wants to"?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But i do know that my
children, and particularly my daughter, have a pretty strong need for
choice and getting to
things in her own time. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/choices
That's the core of all this unschooling business, but it's not a
granulation of members of the family into unconnected entities.
As to my experience, in helping people understand unschooling, the
thing that's not good to take one's time about getting is that others
need to have choices and the freedom to take things in their own time.
http://sandradodd.com/doit
When unschooling starts, then choices and getting to things in
people's own way and time is the basis.
You perceive your daughter as having a strong need for choice. What
she doesn't have is a right to choices. If she's a minor, the parents
are legally and morally responsible for the choices she makes. So as
an unschooling parent I can choose to give my kids TONS of choices,
but not any choice in the world. I can create a space in which lots
of acceptable, safe and legal choices are available. I can maintain
(and have) an environment in which they can sleep until noon or later
and stay up as late as they want (quietly, in the house; responsibly,
out of the house, when they're older).
What I cannot do is turn to the county or the police or my neighbors
and assert that my children have the right to any of that. They
don't. I have the right to more leeway as an adult, and I have chosen
to use that to create a larger learning space for my children than
most children have. But it's mine. I'm responsible, and my husband.
When the police called and said "Do you know where your son is?" I
said he was at the gaming store or at his friend Josh's house, or some
such. The guy paused and said "what's his name?"
"Kirby."
"We're asking about Martin."
He had been pulled over for running a light. So I said yes, he was
with his friend Brett Henry, and yes that was our car, and yes it was
fine that he was out.
I think the cop had wished I had said no, because he was in the
process of intimidating and scaring them, but it really was okay that
he was out, and he was with Brett, as I'd said.
What if I'd said "We're unschoolers, and so Marty is autonomous and
can do whatever he wants to"?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Judy R
My DDs are 14-year-old twins that have been unschooling for almost 4 years - they have 2 other friends about their same age that have just started unschooling - they hang out together a lot. Mostly they stay up all night watching movies and shows on DVD. They are also in the same drama group, so they do that.
They all say they are interested in getting jobs soon.
One of my girls takes voice lessons and dance lessons (totally her choice) - they both spend lots and lots of time on the computer doing role-playing games where they write up characters and scenarios and share them with others who play the same game and keep the stories going...
because my DH recently died, I am able to stay home all the time - I was working part-time up until recently.
I let them eat what they want. They are still in discovery mode about that so there is junk food involved but also "real" food - surprising what they come up with to eat when I tell them to get what they want at the grocery store (I figure that's cheaper than them buying stuff at the minute market) -
Anyway, I am a little confused by the discussion on responsibility and the references to some unschooling parents being irresponsible - I found that a little scary, because I'm not sure what an irresponsible unschooling parent would look like - I know htere are plenty of people around me who think I am being irresponsible, but I am here for my girls, we talk about lots of stuff, we go on trips, we go to movies and plays - we all read a fair amount. I guess I am asking if what we do seems "irresponsible" in terms of the discussion that has been going on here...
Judy R.
They all say they are interested in getting jobs soon.
One of my girls takes voice lessons and dance lessons (totally her choice) - they both spend lots and lots of time on the computer doing role-playing games where they write up characters and scenarios and share them with others who play the same game and keep the stories going...
because my DH recently died, I am able to stay home all the time - I was working part-time up until recently.
I let them eat what they want. They are still in discovery mode about that so there is junk food involved but also "real" food - surprising what they come up with to eat when I tell them to get what they want at the grocery store (I figure that's cheaper than them buying stuff at the minute market) -
Anyway, I am a little confused by the discussion on responsibility and the references to some unschooling parents being irresponsible - I found that a little scary, because I'm not sure what an irresponsible unschooling parent would look like - I know htere are plenty of people around me who think I am being irresponsible, but I am here for my girls, we talk about lots of stuff, we go on trips, we go to movies and plays - we all read a fair amount. I guess I am asking if what we do seems "irresponsible" in terms of the discussion that has been going on here...
Judy R.
----- Original Message -----
From: k
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Help! My son is failing and miserable
>>>> Conventionally, parents will tell kids that they can have more
"privileges" when they demonstrate that they are more "responsible." <<<<
>>>> By that they seem to mean that if the kids are more obedient then
they'll trust them to be responsible, meaning to do what the parents
want them to do. <<<<
Yes. Conventional parenting proposes to get at freedom for kids (or
at least independence, which like Sandra mentioned is not the point)
by first compelling them to listen to advice about how to be
responsible (and responsibility, as a goal linked to independence,
also misses the point).
It's like a foreign language. Few can learn just by following
someone's verbal directions. Most people learn by being immersed in
the culture and experiencing it. And it helps very much if the point
is *not* about making people independent or responsible for
information they're not understanding.
It's a silly dichotomy that following directions is in some people's
eyes obedient or good while those who learn by gaining experience
(getting their hands dirty, so to speak) risk getting tagged as
rebellious or bad.
I'm hoping that figuring out or at least facilitating the process for
Karl, I can skip all the above and provide a happy place to simply be
... where help is always at hand and nobody is making anyone figure
stuff out on their own.
*I* need help figuring stuff out. Why do I want Karl to make
decisions without help (unless he wants to)?
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Susan Reeve
I happened to pick up the book Boys Adrift by a psychiatrist. He says that
the current teaching methodology has become feminized over the last 30
years, and it has affected boys' learning. He said that in a study when
boys were allowed to stand in the classroom instead of sitting and sitting,
that scores improved dramatically.
Middle school is hard. Hormones are changing, and my older son had a very
difficult time. Now I'm homeschooling/unschooling my 13 year old. Middle
school seems to be very difficult for boys.
Boys like to move and learn. My son is a very enthusiastic learner.
Susan
PS I also have a son Hayden.
the current teaching methodology has become feminized over the last 30
years, and it has affected boys' learning. He said that in a study when
boys were allowed to stand in the classroom instead of sitting and sitting,
that scores improved dramatically.
Middle school is hard. Hormones are changing, and my older son had a very
difficult time. Now I'm homeschooling/unschooling my 13 year old. Middle
school seems to be very difficult for boys.
Boys like to move and learn. My son is a very enthusiastic learner.
Susan
PS I also have a son Hayden.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Is this why we feel sometimes it is Us against them? Why we put up
boarders, Why we lock gates....=-
I'm going to change one spelling. Otherwise it's like a bed and
breakfast, where they do put up boarders, and that's good!
-=-Is this why we feel sometimes it is Us against them? Why we put up
borders, Why we lock gates....-=-
Traditionally our culture seems antagonistic. Much more antagonistic
than some other cultures. I spoke with a man from Mexico who was
staying in a hotel in Minnesota where Holly and I were, and the
Traaseths, last year or so and he and I were at the public computers
early in the morning. He was e-mailing home, and was 24 or so. He
was talking to me about it seeming cold that Americans push their
children out of the house and rush them to be on their own. His
family was helping him financially and emotionally and physically, and
his girlfriend was living with his parents while he was working with a
crew on various projects here and there to make money. He said
there's more of a feeling of shared resources in Mexican families and
he didn't understand Americans.
I understand Americans, but the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps"
and "You know how to do that yourself" is an adult version of "You can
walk; I'm not going to carry you" and "You know how to make a
sandwich." Too many American kids are set out on their own when
they're five, to get to school and back without a parent. (I hope
other countries have a more parent-friendly school tradition.) It's
not warm. It's not healthy. There are costs and effects that harm us
all.
Being a child's partner is the opposite of us against them. It's "we
are a team."
I'm very glad for the things I learned in La Leche League, and I'm
glad my family's circumstances and my interests and the presence of
the internet have come together in such a way that I can share that
one important thing with people who might not ever have nursed a baby,
or might have had no contact with early-childhood attachment
theories. What I learned from La Leche League (and specifically from
the words and attitudes of Carol Rice-McClure and Lori Odhner, and
Kathy Hoag (now Kathy Isaacson) was that for Kirby to be happy, he
needed a mom who was gentle and attentive and was listening to him,
even before he could talk. For me to be happy, I needed to be the
kind of mom Kirby needed right then, in each moment. And when the two
of us were happy together, the relationship would carry through for
years.
The years they were talking were probably three or four or five.
The years it has carried through are, so far, 22.
I didn't make a decision never to send my children to school. Keith
and I decided not to send Kirby to kindergarten the year he was five.
He has a late summer birthday, and we had the legal right to
homeschool or to just wait a year. We registered to homeschool,
figuring that when he was six we could either put him in kindergarten,
or first, or keep homeschooling. Each year we asked him. We thought
Marty would probably want to go to school, even if Kirby wasn't. We
had the right to make those options available to them not because we
decided we were radical unschoolers (all we were doing at first was
letting one child be home instead of sending him to school), but
because the state laws allowed for it, and we took an option.
When Marty was old enough, he wanted to stay home too.
When Holly was old enough, she wanted to stay home too.
We gave them choices within what was safe and legal, and then we made
the best of the situation by really unschooling as well as we could.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
boarders, Why we lock gates....=-
I'm going to change one spelling. Otherwise it's like a bed and
breakfast, where they do put up boarders, and that's good!
-=-Is this why we feel sometimes it is Us against them? Why we put up
borders, Why we lock gates....-=-
Traditionally our culture seems antagonistic. Much more antagonistic
than some other cultures. I spoke with a man from Mexico who was
staying in a hotel in Minnesota where Holly and I were, and the
Traaseths, last year or so and he and I were at the public computers
early in the morning. He was e-mailing home, and was 24 or so. He
was talking to me about it seeming cold that Americans push their
children out of the house and rush them to be on their own. His
family was helping him financially and emotionally and physically, and
his girlfriend was living with his parents while he was working with a
crew on various projects here and there to make money. He said
there's more of a feeling of shared resources in Mexican families and
he didn't understand Americans.
I understand Americans, but the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps"
and "You know how to do that yourself" is an adult version of "You can
walk; I'm not going to carry you" and "You know how to make a
sandwich." Too many American kids are set out on their own when
they're five, to get to school and back without a parent. (I hope
other countries have a more parent-friendly school tradition.) It's
not warm. It's not healthy. There are costs and effects that harm us
all.
Being a child's partner is the opposite of us against them. It's "we
are a team."
I'm very glad for the things I learned in La Leche League, and I'm
glad my family's circumstances and my interests and the presence of
the internet have come together in such a way that I can share that
one important thing with people who might not ever have nursed a baby,
or might have had no contact with early-childhood attachment
theories. What I learned from La Leche League (and specifically from
the words and attitudes of Carol Rice-McClure and Lori Odhner, and
Kathy Hoag (now Kathy Isaacson) was that for Kirby to be happy, he
needed a mom who was gentle and attentive and was listening to him,
even before he could talk. For me to be happy, I needed to be the
kind of mom Kirby needed right then, in each moment. And when the two
of us were happy together, the relationship would carry through for
years.
The years they were talking were probably three or four or five.
The years it has carried through are, so far, 22.
I didn't make a decision never to send my children to school. Keith
and I decided not to send Kirby to kindergarten the year he was five.
He has a late summer birthday, and we had the legal right to
homeschool or to just wait a year. We registered to homeschool,
figuring that when he was six we could either put him in kindergarten,
or first, or keep homeschooling. Each year we asked him. We thought
Marty would probably want to go to school, even if Kirby wasn't. We
had the right to make those options available to them not because we
decided we were radical unschoolers (all we were doing at first was
letting one child be home instead of sending him to school), but
because the state laws allowed for it, and we took an option.
When Marty was old enough, he wanted to stay home too.
When Holly was old enough, she wanted to stay home too.
We gave them choices within what was safe and legal, and then we made
the best of the situation by really unschooling as well as we could.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
It doesn't look irresponsible to me. Are your kids healthy and they
have shoes and clothes? Do you know where they are when they're out?
Are they kind to people, and considerate?
-=-Anyway, I am a little confused by the discussion on responsibility
and the references to some unschooling parents being irresponsible - I
found that a little scary, because I'm not sure what an irresponsible
unschooling parent would look like - I-=-
I think it's irresponsible to say "My child is in charge of his own
education" and then sit back and eat bon bons and ignore the kids.
No child is responsible for his own welfare and learning. Part of
learning is learning how to be in the world, how to interact with
other people, how to behave in various situations.
I think it's irresponsible when a parent says "Because we're
unschooling, my kid doesn't have to sit still at a funeral." (I made
that up. Nobody has said that as far as I know.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have shoes and clothes? Do you know where they are when they're out?
Are they kind to people, and considerate?
-=-Anyway, I am a little confused by the discussion on responsibility
and the references to some unschooling parents being irresponsible - I
found that a little scary, because I'm not sure what an irresponsible
unschooling parent would look like - I-=-
I think it's irresponsible to say "My child is in charge of his own
education" and then sit back and eat bon bons and ignore the kids.
No child is responsible for his own welfare and learning. Part of
learning is learning how to be in the world, how to interact with
other people, how to behave in various situations.
I think it's irresponsible when a parent says "Because we're
unschooling, my kid doesn't have to sit still at a funeral." (I made
that up. Nobody has said that as far as I know.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
If she's a minor, the parents
what I expected:
1: the quality or state of being self-governing ; especially : the right of self-government
2: self-directing freedom and especially moral independence
3: a self-governing state
A child, by definition, CAN'T be autonomous. It's not even legal.
Joanna
> are legally and morally responsible for the choices she makes.Here's the Mirriam-Webster definition for autonomy, and it's actually quite different from
what I expected:
1: the quality or state of being self-governing ; especially : the right of self-government
2: self-directing freedom and especially moral independence
3: a self-governing state
A child, by definition, CAN'T be autonomous. It's not even legal.
Joanna
ryan free
-
By this definition everyone is Autonomous..
but most not aware, and at the same time as we come to understand
life, we realize that we can't stand alone, that we are all in this
together.
WE do not govern anothers body....or mind, or feelings, or
beliefs...and yet that is what we do to a large extent in society, to
govern and control and guide and influence others.
We have become a society of controllers who make every effort to
control/influence another's thoughts and feelings and actions and
beliefs... and many of us succumb to this way, WE are not autonomous
beings in this society, because we are highly influenced and goverend
by those outside of ourselves.
I would love for my children to "know they self" To choose what is
morally correct in their own heart. to not be dictated by Others...
yet! really is this possible, and remain in society?
-- In [email protected], "Joanna Murphy" <ridingmom@...>
wrote:
By this definition everyone is Autonomous..
but most not aware, and at the same time as we come to understand
life, we realize that we can't stand alone, that we are all in this
together.
WE do not govern anothers body....or mind, or feelings, or
beliefs...and yet that is what we do to a large extent in society, to
govern and control and guide and influence others.
We have become a society of controllers who make every effort to
control/influence another's thoughts and feelings and actions and
beliefs... and many of us succumb to this way, WE are not autonomous
beings in this society, because we are highly influenced and goverend
by those outside of ourselves.
I would love for my children to "know they self" To choose what is
morally correct in their own heart. to not be dictated by Others...
yet! really is this possible, and remain in society?
-- In [email protected], "Joanna Murphy" <ridingmom@...>
wrote:
>actually quite different from
> If she's a minor, the parents
> > are legally and morally responsible for the choices she makes.
>
> Here's the Mirriam-Webster definition for autonomy, and it's
> what I expected:right of self-government
>
> 1: the quality or state of being self-governing ; especially : the
> 2: self-directing freedom and especially moral independence
> 3: a self-governing state
>
> A child, by definition, CAN'T be autonomous. It's not even legal.
>
> Joanna
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Here's the Mirriam-Webster definition for autonomy, and it's
actually quite different from
what I expected:-=-
It's exactly what I knew autonomy meant, which is why I was surprised
when people were coming to the list saying "But I thought unschooling
required autonomy." (not a quote--paraphrase in quotation marks)
When I use "strew," I'm using it as it really is, to scatter things
around.
When I ask people to replace phrases involving "teaching" with other
phrases centered on "learn" and "learning" I'm not at all, in any way,
asking them to use words in any way other than the way the dictionary
defines them. I'm telling them that if they want to learn about
natural learning, any time they talk about teaching their child, or
the child teaching himself, they aren't seeing learning. So when
they can catch their words and thoughts about "teaching" they can see
the very same children, the very same books and toys and museums and
movies, the very same house and town, from a whole different angle.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
actually quite different from
what I expected:-=-
It's exactly what I knew autonomy meant, which is why I was surprised
when people were coming to the list saying "But I thought unschooling
required autonomy." (not a quote--paraphrase in quotation marks)
When I use "strew," I'm using it as it really is, to scatter things
around.
When I ask people to replace phrases involving "teaching" with other
phrases centered on "learn" and "learning" I'm not at all, in any way,
asking them to use words in any way other than the way the dictionary
defines them. I'm telling them that if they want to learn about
natural learning, any time they talk about teaching their child, or
the child teaching himself, they aren't seeing learning. So when
they can catch their words and thoughts about "teaching" they can see
the very same children, the very same books and toys and museums and
movies, the very same house and town, from a whole different angle.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I would love for my children to "know they self" To choose what is
morally correct in their own heart. to not be dictated by Others...-=-
The "Others" like on Lost? <g>
I doubt you want them to have to reinvent the cultural wheel
entirely. When kids want to talk about what you as a parent (mother?
father?) think is a good thing to do, I doubt you say "You're
autonomous. Figure it out."
-=-WE do not govern anothers body....or mind, or feelings, or
beliefs...and yet that is what we do to a large extent in society, to
govern and control and guide and influence others.-=-
"Govern" is not the same as control or guide or influence. All of
those words have specific meanings, and can't be lumped together as
the opposite of autonomy (if that's what the writer intended).
-=-We have become a society of controllers who make every effort to
control/influence another's thoughts and feelings and actions and
beliefs... and many of us succumb to this way,...-=-
"Have become" within what time frame, are you thinking?
Society is moving quite away from control in some ways, and toward it
in others. Give examples, please of how you think control is
increasing, and in what time frame. The statement as it stands quoted
above seems false to me.
-=- WE are not autonomous
beings in this society, because we are highly influenced and goverend
by those outside of ourselves.-=-
No one within a society can be outside of the society, really, can
they? From 2009 in Albuquerque, in Bernalillo County in the State of
New Mexico in the United States of America, can I be an autonomous
being? I'm grown. I'm even a landowner, nearly (a mortgage payer
<g>). Not male, but that doesn't matter much these days.
If I were in a teensy village in Europe a thousand years ago, could I
have been autonomous and outside the society?
What does "highly influenced" mean in these situations?
What does "governed by those outside of ourselves" mean? Can you
give an example of someone who is not governed by those outside himself?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
morally correct in their own heart. to not be dictated by Others...-=-
The "Others" like on Lost? <g>
I doubt you want them to have to reinvent the cultural wheel
entirely. When kids want to talk about what you as a parent (mother?
father?) think is a good thing to do, I doubt you say "You're
autonomous. Figure it out."
-=-WE do not govern anothers body....or mind, or feelings, or
beliefs...and yet that is what we do to a large extent in society, to
govern and control and guide and influence others.-=-
"Govern" is not the same as control or guide or influence. All of
those words have specific meanings, and can't be lumped together as
the opposite of autonomy (if that's what the writer intended).
-=-We have become a society of controllers who make every effort to
control/influence another's thoughts and feelings and actions and
beliefs... and many of us succumb to this way,...-=-
"Have become" within what time frame, are you thinking?
Society is moving quite away from control in some ways, and toward it
in others. Give examples, please of how you think control is
increasing, and in what time frame. The statement as it stands quoted
above seems false to me.
-=- WE are not autonomous
beings in this society, because we are highly influenced and goverend
by those outside of ourselves.-=-
No one within a society can be outside of the society, really, can
they? From 2009 in Albuquerque, in Bernalillo County in the State of
New Mexico in the United States of America, can I be an autonomous
being? I'm grown. I'm even a landowner, nearly (a mortgage payer
<g>). Not male, but that doesn't matter much these days.
If I were in a teensy village in Europe a thousand years ago, could I
have been autonomous and outside the society?
What does "highly influenced" mean in these situations?
What does "governed by those outside of ourselves" mean? Can you
give an example of someone who is not governed by those outside himself?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-much of our parenting is similar to
yours....I just don't know how to begin, =-
You begin by stopping.
Stop anything that has seemed to you like schooling. Cessation of
teaching.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
yours....I just don't know how to begin, =-
You begin by stopping.
Stop anything that has seemed to you like schooling. Cessation of
teaching.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
In my experience, "autonomy" as a term within unschooling discussions
often comes from non-coercive parenting (NCP) or taking children
seriously (TCS) circles, and it's used in terms of the first definition
in the dictionary: self-governance.
I know Sandra and others, myself included, have expressed concerns/
problems with NCP/TCS philosophies, but I have found some of the tools I
gleaned while reading around those philosophies to be very useful
additions to my own personal parenting philosophy. Autonomy inasmuch as
is possible for a child would be one of those useful tools--in other
words, setting up my child's world in an empowering way to enable
self-governance as much as possible.
I've also found that this concept dovetails nicely with the kinds of
ideas John Holt articulated in his book _Escape from Childhood_, so I
personally don't think that the idea of autonomy or self-governance is
incompatible with radical unschooling.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (11), Julia (10), Sam (8)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
often comes from non-coercive parenting (NCP) or taking children
seriously (TCS) circles, and it's used in terms of the first definition
in the dictionary: self-governance.
I know Sandra and others, myself included, have expressed concerns/
problems with NCP/TCS philosophies, but I have found some of the tools I
gleaned while reading around those philosophies to be very useful
additions to my own personal parenting philosophy. Autonomy inasmuch as
is possible for a child would be one of those useful tools--in other
words, setting up my child's world in an empowering way to enable
self-governance as much as possible.
I've also found that this concept dovetails nicely with the kinds of
ideas John Holt articulated in his book _Escape from Childhood_, so I
personally don't think that the idea of autonomy or self-governance is
incompatible with radical unschooling.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (11), Julia (10), Sam (8)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
ryan free
I'm sorry Sandra I get a very defensive feeling from you.
You ask some interesting questions.
I think we live in a very controlled society.
Religiously speaking, Politically speaking, educationally speaking,
homeownership speaking, Where our children attend school,(bussing)
economic separation, who gets the jobs, who gets the grants, What
words are forbidden in public, what Science we can investigate and
what we can't, Phones, emails, mail being monitored by Government
and by the business in which we work. The manipulation of food, the
control of our food supply, the fluoridation in our water, the price
of gas
Do you really think you own your home? Try not paying tax on your
property....or how about your car.... and the day is coming when you
will no longer be able to save the seeds from your garden, you will
have to buy them because 'plant life" is patented.
And I'd say being a male or a female does matter, I don't see the
government dealing with men and birth control.
Did you know that every money transaction you make is recorded and
can be viewed by government.
Yes! why not let Our children reinvent the cultural wheel and
entirely, because we certainly have a lot that isn't working for many
people.
I'm not against you here, I want my kids to be free, I would like to
come from a place of guidance, and as you said about teaching... and
I don't have that response in front of me but I was under the
impression that for you showing them the world was about giving them
experiences where they can learn without necessarily being influenced
by your beliefs or ideas. Maybe you didn't mean that at all, that it
was I got from it.
Oh and I've never seen the show "Lost"
I do tell my kids what I think is a good idea,, and then sometimes I
realize how biased I am because it was a belief instilled in me and
it doesn't have to be true or right for them.
You're right, we haven't "become" a society of controllers We have
always been, only the controls are getting a lot tighter.
NOt sure what you are getting at with
"No one within a society can be outside of the society"
Hmmm "In this world but not of it"
To be autonomous would be able to not be controlled by society, and
that is why I said I do not think that any of us are truly
autonomous, because we are highly involved, and invested in our
interaction with others in all the various means and ways.
You ask some interesting questions.
I think we live in a very controlled society.
Religiously speaking, Politically speaking, educationally speaking,
homeownership speaking, Where our children attend school,(bussing)
economic separation, who gets the jobs, who gets the grants, What
words are forbidden in public, what Science we can investigate and
what we can't, Phones, emails, mail being monitored by Government
and by the business in which we work. The manipulation of food, the
control of our food supply, the fluoridation in our water, the price
of gas
Do you really think you own your home? Try not paying tax on your
property....or how about your car.... and the day is coming when you
will no longer be able to save the seeds from your garden, you will
have to buy them because 'plant life" is patented.
And I'd say being a male or a female does matter, I don't see the
government dealing with men and birth control.
Did you know that every money transaction you make is recorded and
can be viewed by government.
Yes! why not let Our children reinvent the cultural wheel and
entirely, because we certainly have a lot that isn't working for many
people.
I'm not against you here, I want my kids to be free, I would like to
come from a place of guidance, and as you said about teaching... and
I don't have that response in front of me but I was under the
impression that for you showing them the world was about giving them
experiences where they can learn without necessarily being influenced
by your beliefs or ideas. Maybe you didn't mean that at all, that it
was I got from it.
Oh and I've never seen the show "Lost"
I do tell my kids what I think is a good idea,, and then sometimes I
realize how biased I am because it was a belief instilled in me and
it doesn't have to be true or right for them.
You're right, we haven't "become" a society of controllers We have
always been, only the controls are getting a lot tighter.
NOt sure what you are getting at with
"No one within a society can be outside of the society"
Hmmm "In this world but not of it"
To be autonomous would be able to not be controlled by society, and
that is why I said I do not think that any of us are truly
autonomous, because we are highly involved, and invested in our
interaction with others in all the various means and ways.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I would love for my children to "know they self" To choose what
is
> morally correct in their own heart. to not be dictated by Others...-
=-
>
> The "Others" like on Lost? <g>
>
> I doubt you want them to have to reinvent the cultural wheel
> entirely. When kids want to talk about what you as a parent
(mother?
> father?) think is a good thing to do, I doubt you say "You're
> autonomous. Figure it out."
>
> -=-WE do not govern anothers body....or mind, or feelings, or
> beliefs...and yet that is what we do to a large extent in society,
to
> govern and control and guide and influence others.-=-
>
> "Govern" is not the same as control or guide or influence. All of
> those words have specific meanings, and can't be lumped together
as
> the opposite of autonomy (if that's what the writer intended).
>
>
> -=-We have become a society of controllers who make every effort to
> control/influence another's thoughts and feelings and actions and
> beliefs... and many of us succumb to this way,...-=-
>
> "Have become" within what time frame, are you thinking?
>
> Society is moving quite away from control in some ways, and toward
it
> in others. Give examples, please of how you think control is
> increasing, and in what time frame. The statement as it stands
quoted
> above seems false to me.
>
>
> -=- WE are not autonomous
> beings in this society, because we are highly influenced and
goverend
> by those outside of ourselves.-=-
>
> No one within a society can be outside of the society, really, can
> they? From 2009 in Albuquerque, in Bernalillo County in the State
of
> New Mexico in the United States of America, can I be an autonomous
> being? I'm grown. I'm even a landowner, nearly (a mortgage payer
> <g>). Not male, but that doesn't matter much these days.
>
> If I were in a teensy village in Europe a thousand years ago, could
I
> have been autonomous and outside the society?
>
> What does "highly influenced" mean in these situations?
>
> What does "governed by those outside of ourselves" mean? Can you
> give an example of someone who is not governed by those outside
himself?
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
ryan free
-Thanks Danielle,
what you say here is on point and makes a lot of sense and is
exactly waht I meant in my post about allowing children to see for
themselves without my influencing beliefs...and at the same time I
understand that we can't truly get away from influencing.
Kara
-- In [email protected], Danielle Conger
<danielle.conger@...> wrote:
what you say here is on point and makes a lot of sense and is
exactly waht I meant in my post about allowing children to see for
themselves without my influencing beliefs...and at the same time I
understand that we can't truly get away from influencing.
Kara
-- In [email protected], Danielle Conger
<danielle.conger@...> wrote:
>discussions
> In my experience, "autonomy" as a term within unschooling
> often comes from non-coercive parenting (NCP) or taking childrendefinition
> seriously (TCS) circles, and it's used in terms of the first
> in the dictionary: self-governance.tools I
>
> I know Sandra and others, myself included, have expressed concerns/
> problems with NCP/TCS philosophies, but I have found some of the
> gleaned while reading around those philosophies to be very usefulinasmuch as
> additions to my own personal parenting philosophy. Autonomy
> is possible for a child would be one of those useful tools--inother
> words, setting up my child's world in an empowering way to enableof
> self-governance as much as possible.
>
> I've also found that this concept dovetails nicely with the kinds
> ideas John Holt articulated in his book _Escape from Childhood_, soI
> personally don't think that the idea of autonomy or self-governanceis
> incompatible with radical unschooling.
>
> --
> ~~Danielle
> Emily (11), Julia (10), Sam (8)
> http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- I
personally don't think that the idea of autonomy or self-governance is
incompatible with radical unschooling.-=-
It doesn't suggest partnership at all.
When people have said strewing is manipulative and that being
persuasive violates a child's autonomy, we're getting away from good
relationships and natural learning. It's moving toward philosophical
rules and not toward human needs. It's getting cold, not getting
warm, in unschooling.
Kirby was born in 1986 and has never been to school, yet I didn't join
the AlwaysUnschooled list. The lists I was on already had people
whose children had never been to school, and the ideas I'd picked up
in La Leche League meetings and from reading about attachment
parenting covered all of what it took to transition from "just having
children who were gently parented" to having children who didn't go to
school and were still gently parented, but somehow the "need" for a
separate list arose, and some of the problems we've dealt with here,
at unschooling.info and RUNning involve people saying "BUT..." and
then coming up with something that isn't at all helpful to
unschooling. It's frustrating.
Instead of granulating into different lists with different
vocabularies, I'd much prefer to use plain English with as much
analysis as people want, but not to say "for purposes of this,
"manipulate" will mean "influence" and "persuade" will mean "bully" or
anything anything like that.
We need less add-on and more clarity. Explanations need to be
simpler, not more complex, to make it more accessible.
Some of these quotes are new (one's new the other day) and some are
many years old, but these are the kinds of things that will help
unschoolers more than ideas like "self governance." "Governance" has
a meaning, and it is not that one governs himself.
http://sandradodd.com/quotes
Self-governance is a worse concept that "self-regulation."
Government and regulation involve rules and laws. Why not talk about
helping children learn to make decisions, as people have been
discussing for decades?
http://sandradodd.com/self-regulation
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
personally don't think that the idea of autonomy or self-governance is
incompatible with radical unschooling.-=-
It doesn't suggest partnership at all.
When people have said strewing is manipulative and that being
persuasive violates a child's autonomy, we're getting away from good
relationships and natural learning. It's moving toward philosophical
rules and not toward human needs. It's getting cold, not getting
warm, in unschooling.
Kirby was born in 1986 and has never been to school, yet I didn't join
the AlwaysUnschooled list. The lists I was on already had people
whose children had never been to school, and the ideas I'd picked up
in La Leche League meetings and from reading about attachment
parenting covered all of what it took to transition from "just having
children who were gently parented" to having children who didn't go to
school and were still gently parented, but somehow the "need" for a
separate list arose, and some of the problems we've dealt with here,
at unschooling.info and RUNning involve people saying "BUT..." and
then coming up with something that isn't at all helpful to
unschooling. It's frustrating.
Instead of granulating into different lists with different
vocabularies, I'd much prefer to use plain English with as much
analysis as people want, but not to say "for purposes of this,
"manipulate" will mean "influence" and "persuade" will mean "bully" or
anything anything like that.
We need less add-on and more clarity. Explanations need to be
simpler, not more complex, to make it more accessible.
Some of these quotes are new (one's new the other day) and some are
many years old, but these are the kinds of things that will help
unschoolers more than ideas like "self governance." "Governance" has
a meaning, and it is not that one governs himself.
http://sandradodd.com/quotes
Self-governance is a worse concept that "self-regulation."
Government and regulation involve rules and laws. Why not talk about
helping children learn to make decisions, as people have been
discussing for decades?
http://sandradodd.com/self-regulation
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm sorry Sandra I get a very defensive feeling from you.-=-
You don't have to use a name to post, but it's hard to address a
person who doesn't sign a post.
You've been on the list for less than a week. Please read a while
before to see how the list works.
Any beliefs parents are using to make decisions about their children's
lives *should* be things they're willing and able to defend.
The purpose of the list is to discuss natural learning, and so the
closer a post is to helping people clarify how unschooling can work in
their homes, the better.
Sandra Dodd
listowner
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You don't have to use a name to post, but it's hard to address a
person who doesn't sign a post.
You've been on the list for less than a week. Please read a while
before to see how the list works.
Any beliefs parents are using to make decisions about their children's
lives *should* be things they're willing and able to defend.
The purpose of the list is to discuss natural learning, and so the
closer a post is to helping people clarify how unschooling can work in
their homes, the better.
Sandra Dodd
listowner
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ryan free
--Oh I think I see what you were getting at with can anyone live in
society but be outside of it...
This is exactly what I was saying, I guess you misunderstood.
I do not think anyone can truly be autonomous, WE are all connected.
we are all influenced by our surroundings and the beliefs and
perceptions of those we interact with.
and like I sad earlier I find this really interesting to contemplate
coming from a personal belief that All are One
Kara
- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
society but be outside of it...
This is exactly what I was saying, I guess you misunderstood.
I do not think anyone can truly be autonomous, WE are all connected.
we are all influenced by our surroundings and the beliefs and
perceptions of those we interact with.
and like I sad earlier I find this really interesting to contemplate
coming from a personal belief that All are One
Kara
- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>is
> -=-I would love for my children to "know they self" To choose what
> morally correct in their own heart. to not be dictated by Others...-=-
>(mother?
> The "Others" like on Lost? <g>
>
> I doubt you want them to have to reinvent the cultural wheel
> entirely. When kids want to talk about what you as a parent
> father?) think is a good thing to do, I doubt you say "You'reto
> autonomous. Figure it out."
>
> -=-WE do not govern anothers body....or mind, or feelings, or
> beliefs...and yet that is what we do to a large extent in society,
> govern and control and guide and influence others.-=-as
>
> "Govern" is not the same as control or guide or influence. All of
> those words have specific meanings, and can't be lumped together
> the opposite of autonomy (if that's what the writer intended).it
>
>
> -=-We have become a society of controllers who make every effort to
> control/influence another's thoughts and feelings and actions and
> beliefs... and many of us succumb to this way,...-=-
>
> "Have become" within what time frame, are you thinking?
>
> Society is moving quite away from control in some ways, and toward
> in others. Give examples, please of how you think control isquoted
> increasing, and in what time frame. The statement as it stands
> above seems false to me.goverend
>
>
> -=- WE are not autonomous
> beings in this society, because we are highly influenced and
> by those outside of ourselves.-=-of
>
> No one within a society can be outside of the society, really, can
> they? From 2009 in Albuquerque, in Bernalillo County in the State
> New Mexico in the United States of America, can I be an autonomousI
> being? I'm grown. I'm even a landowner, nearly (a mortgage payer
> <g>). Not male, but that doesn't matter much these days.
>
> If I were in a teensy village in Europe a thousand years ago, could
> have been autonomous and outside the society?himself?
>
> What does "highly influenced" mean in these situations?
>
> What does "governed by those outside of ourselves" mean? Can you
> give an example of someone who is not governed by those outside
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
ryan free
--- Cool I am willing and able to defend!
It seems like all issues can come back to unschooling,
Control and freedom and autonomy are big issues in my situation...and
they need to be reconciled for me to trust that unschooling will be a
choice for my child.
did I miss signing a post? I usually sign.
Kara
In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
It seems like all issues can come back to unschooling,
Control and freedom and autonomy are big issues in my situation...and
they need to be reconciled for me to trust that unschooling will be a
choice for my child.
did I miss signing a post? I usually sign.
Kara
In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>children's
> -=-I'm sorry Sandra I get a very defensive feeling from you.-=-
>
> You don't have to use a name to post, but it's hard to address a
> person who doesn't sign a post.
>
> You've been on the list for less than a week. Please read a while
> before to see how the list works.
>
> Any beliefs parents are using to make decisions about their
> lives *should* be things they're willing and able to defend.in
>
> The purpose of the list is to discuss natural learning, and so the
> closer a post is to helping people clarify how unschooling can work
> their homes, the better.
>
> Sandra Dodd
> listowner
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Danielle Conger
Sandra Dodd wrote:
enter into partnership.
violates anyone's autonomy. I also think that philosophy and discussion
of principles, rules, theories, etc. is useful in unschooling, though I
don't think that's the only useful discussion to have. Personally, I
find philosophical and theoretical discussion most useful when backed by
specific, real-life examples of that philosophy/ theory in action. I
don't think we need to have an either/ or set up. I think that was one
of the weaknesses of the non-coercive parenting discussions--their
refusal to offer anything but cold, distant, hypothetical examples. Not
useful, imo, for translating the ideas into my real, flesh and blood life.
helped me to clarify my thinking about the kinds of relationships I want
to have with my children, our relationship with learning, with the world
around us, etc.
I don't think that discussions about autonomy exclude talk about helping
children learn to make decisions. AlwaysUnschooled often has very
interesting, thoughtful, and careful discussions of how to support our
children in learning to make decisions.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (11), Julia (10), Sam (8)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
>I disagree. I think autonomous people are fully capable of choosing to
> -=- I
> personally don't think that the idea of autonomy or self-governance is
> incompatible with radical unschooling.-=-
>
> It doesn't suggest partnership at all.
>
enter into partnership.
>I don't think strewing is manipulative at all, nor do I believe it
>
> When people have said strewing is manipulative and that being
> persuasive violates a child's autonomy, we're getting away from good
> relationships and natural learning. It's moving toward philosophical
> rules and not toward human needs. It's getting cold, not getting
> warm, in unschooling.
>
violates anyone's autonomy. I also think that philosophy and discussion
of principles, rules, theories, etc. is useful in unschooling, though I
don't think that's the only useful discussion to have. Personally, I
find philosophical and theoretical discussion most useful when backed by
specific, real-life examples of that philosophy/ theory in action. I
don't think we need to have an either/ or set up. I think that was one
of the weaknesses of the non-coercive parenting discussions--their
refusal to offer anything but cold, distant, hypothetical examples. Not
useful, imo, for translating the ideas into my real, flesh and blood life.
> <http://sandradodd.com/quotes>I think empowerment and autonomy are very useful concepts. They've
>
> Self-governance is a worse concept that "self-regulation."
>
> Government and regulation involve rules and laws. Why not talk about
> helping children learn to make decisions, as people have been
> discussing for decades?
>
helped me to clarify my thinking about the kinds of relationships I want
to have with my children, our relationship with learning, with the world
around us, etc.
I don't think that discussions about autonomy exclude talk about helping
children learn to make decisions. AlwaysUnschooled often has very
interesting, thoughtful, and careful discussions of how to support our
children in learning to make decisions.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (11), Julia (10), Sam (8)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com