is this what ADHD looks like?!
Kim Zerbe
I've been having some hard times with my son. Lately he has taken to
screaming at the top of his lungs, which is annoying to say the least, but I
also don't know what to do about it. I'm trying to find a reason he might be
doing this and can't seem to. He seems mad at me but won't say why. But
wait, there's more.
Today when I told him it was time to get ready for baseball, he started
throwing toys and screaming. When I tried to hold him and ask him what was
wrong, he hit me and tried to bang his head into mine (I wouldn't let him,
but as I tried to hold his arms all I could do was flip my neck back and he
banged into my chest). I tried to hold him sideways in my lap and he just
bucked all over the place and shook his head like he was having a seizure,
yelling nonsense at the same time. I tried to remain calm and said "Look,
you don't have to go to baseball if you really don't want to go, but this is
not the way to act. Just tell me you don't want to go!" So he yelled "I HATE
BASEBALL AND I HATE YOU!!!" His new thing is that he hates whatever it is I
want to do or whatever interferes with what he wants to do.
I could not get him to calm down and I couldn't stay calm myself with the
way he was treating me. He wouldn't stop screaming long enough to listen to
me. I said it was OK to miss baseball, but it would have been the last class
(for 4yr olds, it's mainly a skill building class at the rec center, not a
team or anything) and I really wanted him to go. So I kept asking why he
didn't want to go. Probably didn't help. I think he just wanted to watch The
Incredibles, even though I said we could pause it and finish watching after
baseball. The baseball class was only happening now and the movie would be
here when we got back. That only made things worse so I unpaused the movie
and walked away.
It feels like I'm doing something wrong. I'm really getting tired of the
physical abuse with him. I try talking to him and he just screams, bucks,
and hits. I end up leaving the room and sometimes crying because I don't
like it ,but also don't know what I am doing wrong. On these days I am
fairly certain that he would test positve for ADHD or some other thing if we
submitted him for testing, but what would that get us? (I'm not going to!
Just venting a little here! Hoping someone can understand.)
The closest thing I can guess is that he is not eating or drinking enough.
He refuses most of what I offer. When he asks for something, I get it for
him right away, and he has access to snacks in cabinets at his level. But
then some days he ends up snacking on chips all day and won't eat dinner. He
yells how he HATES DINNER. The last couple of times we went out to dinner he
threw a fit either on the way in or at the table. I'm talking violent
actions, hitting, kicking, running away, screaming and laying down on the
sidewalk before we even got inside. DH doesn't handle this well, but really
stuck in there the other night when this happened and I said he's got to be
super hungry, I haven't seen him eat in hours, you know how I get crazy too
when I don't eat. We used to eat out for lunches 3-4 times a week so we can
see his dad, but lately he's been so combative and says he HATES LUNCH and I
hate fighting with him to get in the car so we don't leave the house. DH is
missing us but doesn't want to be around this behavior either, so he kind of
understands. (But if we don't all eat together, DH often skips lunch, so
then he's a bear when he gets home! But that is a different story! He needs
to take care of himself.)
I know we are going through some kind of disconnect, but I can't tell why,
what caused this, or how to deal with it! We've gone on some really fun
outings lately, with and without friends, and he's been fine. He's gentle
around my friend's baby, plays well with other kids, talks to grownups to
tell them what he needs. Then I get THIS. I'm taking a break from him right
now, he's watching another movie, so I thought I'd come here and seek out
some professional help. :)
Thanks,
Kim Zerbe
in Oregon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
screaming at the top of his lungs, which is annoying to say the least, but I
also don't know what to do about it. I'm trying to find a reason he might be
doing this and can't seem to. He seems mad at me but won't say why. But
wait, there's more.
Today when I told him it was time to get ready for baseball, he started
throwing toys and screaming. When I tried to hold him and ask him what was
wrong, he hit me and tried to bang his head into mine (I wouldn't let him,
but as I tried to hold his arms all I could do was flip my neck back and he
banged into my chest). I tried to hold him sideways in my lap and he just
bucked all over the place and shook his head like he was having a seizure,
yelling nonsense at the same time. I tried to remain calm and said "Look,
you don't have to go to baseball if you really don't want to go, but this is
not the way to act. Just tell me you don't want to go!" So he yelled "I HATE
BASEBALL AND I HATE YOU!!!" His new thing is that he hates whatever it is I
want to do or whatever interferes with what he wants to do.
I could not get him to calm down and I couldn't stay calm myself with the
way he was treating me. He wouldn't stop screaming long enough to listen to
me. I said it was OK to miss baseball, but it would have been the last class
(for 4yr olds, it's mainly a skill building class at the rec center, not a
team or anything) and I really wanted him to go. So I kept asking why he
didn't want to go. Probably didn't help. I think he just wanted to watch The
Incredibles, even though I said we could pause it and finish watching after
baseball. The baseball class was only happening now and the movie would be
here when we got back. That only made things worse so I unpaused the movie
and walked away.
It feels like I'm doing something wrong. I'm really getting tired of the
physical abuse with him. I try talking to him and he just screams, bucks,
and hits. I end up leaving the room and sometimes crying because I don't
like it ,but also don't know what I am doing wrong. On these days I am
fairly certain that he would test positve for ADHD or some other thing if we
submitted him for testing, but what would that get us? (I'm not going to!
Just venting a little here! Hoping someone can understand.)
The closest thing I can guess is that he is not eating or drinking enough.
He refuses most of what I offer. When he asks for something, I get it for
him right away, and he has access to snacks in cabinets at his level. But
then some days he ends up snacking on chips all day and won't eat dinner. He
yells how he HATES DINNER. The last couple of times we went out to dinner he
threw a fit either on the way in or at the table. I'm talking violent
actions, hitting, kicking, running away, screaming and laying down on the
sidewalk before we even got inside. DH doesn't handle this well, but really
stuck in there the other night when this happened and I said he's got to be
super hungry, I haven't seen him eat in hours, you know how I get crazy too
when I don't eat. We used to eat out for lunches 3-4 times a week so we can
see his dad, but lately he's been so combative and says he HATES LUNCH and I
hate fighting with him to get in the car so we don't leave the house. DH is
missing us but doesn't want to be around this behavior either, so he kind of
understands. (But if we don't all eat together, DH often skips lunch, so
then he's a bear when he gets home! But that is a different story! He needs
to take care of himself.)
I know we are going through some kind of disconnect, but I can't tell why,
what caused this, or how to deal with it! We've gone on some really fun
outings lately, with and without friends, and he's been fine. He's gentle
around my friend's baby, plays well with other kids, talks to grownups to
tell them what he needs. Then I get THIS. I'm taking a break from him right
now, he's watching another movie, so I thought I'd come here and seek out
some professional help. :)
Thanks,
Kim Zerbe
in Oregon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
>>I know we are going through some kind of disconnect, but I can't tell why,what caused this, or how to deal with it! We've gone on some really fun
outings lately, with and without friends, and he's been fine. He's gentle
around my friend's baby, plays well with other kids, talks to grownups to
tell them what he needs. Then I get THIS. I'm taking a break from him right
now, he's watching another movie, so I thought I'd come here and seek out
some professional help. :)
>>kim, are the eruptions only around transitions/changes? like going to baseball/eating/going out?
i know you can get "local" help anytime, but thought i'd chime in anyhow! :)
the answer to that question would really help me come up with some ideas....he sounds a lot like my son at that age, so i really empathize.
warmly, Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- He seems mad at me but won't say why.-=-
He might not know why himself. But he's communicating, and probably
feels like he was trying to communicate in other ways before but was
being ignored.
He hates baseball. Once he screams that he doesn't want to go, why
talk to him about it? It's baseball. He's four. It's not important.
-=-"Look,
you don't have to go to baseball if you really don't want to go, but
this is
not the way to act. Just tell me you don't want to go!" -=-
He was telling you with all his might, and you were asking him to make
a speech, or a confession or something.
-=-I said it was OK to miss baseball, but it would have been the last
class
(for 4yr olds, it's mainly a skill building class at the rec center,
not a
team or anything) and I really wanted him to go. -=-
Apparently it wasn't okay with you. When parents contradict
themselves all in one little space, it does make kids angry.
It's really common for parents to assume that they (the parents) know
what they're thinking, but sometimes when it's written down it's clear
to others that there was some very basic confusion. It can't be okay
for him to miss it AND for you to really want him to go so much that
you keep on and on and on.
-=- I try talking to him and he just screams, bucks, and hits-=-
Is he an only child? Are there others in the home?
Is he newly four, or nearly five?
-=-On these days I am
fairly certain that he would test positve for ADHD or some other thing
if we
submitted him for testing, but what would that get us? -=-
It might help make you feel there's something wrong with him, and
nothing really wrong with the way you're treating him. I think that
would be a bad way to go.
When two of my kids aren't getting along, I sometimes say to the older
one "Yes, but you're older and could be setting a better example."
The largest range here is two years and ten months.
With a four year old and a mom, I figure the age difference is at
least twenty years.
Simple answer is It doesn't sound like ADHD to me. It sounds like he
needs more things to see and do and needs more joy and to be
entertained more and talked to less, maybe. But I only see a peek.
Tell us more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He might not know why himself. But he's communicating, and probably
feels like he was trying to communicate in other ways before but was
being ignored.
He hates baseball. Once he screams that he doesn't want to go, why
talk to him about it? It's baseball. He's four. It's not important.
-=-"Look,
you don't have to go to baseball if you really don't want to go, but
this is
not the way to act. Just tell me you don't want to go!" -=-
He was telling you with all his might, and you were asking him to make
a speech, or a confession or something.
-=-I said it was OK to miss baseball, but it would have been the last
class
(for 4yr olds, it's mainly a skill building class at the rec center,
not a
team or anything) and I really wanted him to go. -=-
Apparently it wasn't okay with you. When parents contradict
themselves all in one little space, it does make kids angry.
It's really common for parents to assume that they (the parents) know
what they're thinking, but sometimes when it's written down it's clear
to others that there was some very basic confusion. It can't be okay
for him to miss it AND for you to really want him to go so much that
you keep on and on and on.
-=- I try talking to him and he just screams, bucks, and hits-=-
Is he an only child? Are there others in the home?
Is he newly four, or nearly five?
-=-On these days I am
fairly certain that he would test positve for ADHD or some other thing
if we
submitted him for testing, but what would that get us? -=-
It might help make you feel there's something wrong with him, and
nothing really wrong with the way you're treating him. I think that
would be a bad way to go.
When two of my kids aren't getting along, I sometimes say to the older
one "Yes, but you're older and could be setting a better example."
The largest range here is two years and ten months.
With a four year old and a mom, I figure the age difference is at
least twenty years.
Simple answer is It doesn't sound like ADHD to me. It sounds like he
needs more things to see and do and needs more joy and to be
entertained more and talked to less, maybe. But I only see a peek.
Tell us more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
c.marie119
Some ideas:
Maybe it is a sort of seizure that happens? Or reaction to something?
Some people honestly do not know why they do certain things, at
times; the actions may be as involuntary as sneezing or
uncontrollable giggling, and they don't know why they're doing it or
how to stop, and it's as bewildering to them as it is to anybody else.
For others, it is possible to identify what might have led to what,
and therefore what to do differently in future times, etc.
Being tested -- to learn how best to help him through difficult
times -- does not have to be a negative thing. It's an exploration
of options, wherein the child can be an active and informed
participant (rather than, say, a sort of specimen "submitted" for
examination) throughout the whole thing. It might prove fruitful; it
might prove nothing more than an interesting exercise.
Whatever any "experts" determine after whatever exams they do, you
don't have believe any of it or follow any of their recommendations!
But if something strikes a chord or sounds true, it might be worth
investigating further. You're just seeking information, which you
can then evaluate for yourself; you're not throwing all your
principles to the wind, or anything.
Gather all the info you can -- from your child himself, of course,
and also from anywhere else you can think of. Don't close off access
to an idea just because it might come from somebody with "Dr." in
front of their name. (By the same token, of course, don't believe
everything somebody tells you just bc they have "Dr." in front of
their name! But I think probably everybody here is already on board
with that idea.)
Best wishes to you and your child!
--- In [email protected], "Kim Zerbe" <kim.zerbe@...>
wrote:
Maybe it is a sort of seizure that happens? Or reaction to something?
Some people honestly do not know why they do certain things, at
times; the actions may be as involuntary as sneezing or
uncontrollable giggling, and they don't know why they're doing it or
how to stop, and it's as bewildering to them as it is to anybody else.
For others, it is possible to identify what might have led to what,
and therefore what to do differently in future times, etc.
Being tested -- to learn how best to help him through difficult
times -- does not have to be a negative thing. It's an exploration
of options, wherein the child can be an active and informed
participant (rather than, say, a sort of specimen "submitted" for
examination) throughout the whole thing. It might prove fruitful; it
might prove nothing more than an interesting exercise.
Whatever any "experts" determine after whatever exams they do, you
don't have believe any of it or follow any of their recommendations!
But if something strikes a chord or sounds true, it might be worth
investigating further. You're just seeking information, which you
can then evaluate for yourself; you're not throwing all your
principles to the wind, or anything.
Gather all the info you can -- from your child himself, of course,
and also from anywhere else you can think of. Don't close off access
to an idea just because it might come from somebody with "Dr." in
front of their name. (By the same token, of course, don't believe
everything somebody tells you just bc they have "Dr." in front of
their name! But I think probably everybody here is already on board
with that idea.)
Best wishes to you and your child!
--- In [email protected], "Kim Zerbe" <kim.zerbe@...>
wrote:
>least, but I
> I've been having some hard times with my son. Lately he has taken to
> screaming at the top of his lungs, which is annoying to say the
> also don't know what to do about it. I'm trying to find a reason hemight be
> doing this and can't seem to. He seems mad at me but won't say why.But
> wait, there's more.started
>
> Today when I told him it was time to get ready for baseball, he
> throwing toys and screaming. When I tried to hold him and ask himwhat was
> wrong, he hit me and tried to bang his head into mine (I wouldn'tlet him,
> but as I tried to hold his arms all I could do was flip my neckback and he
> banged into my chest). I tried to hold him sideways in my lap andhe just
> bucked all over the place and shook his head like he was having aseizure,
> yelling nonsense at the same time. I tried to remain calm andsaid "Look,
> you don't have to go to baseball if you really don't want to go,but this is
> not the way to act. Just tell me you don't want to go!" So heyelled "I HATE
> BASEBALL AND I HATE YOU!!!" His new thing is that he hates whateverit is I
> want to do or whatever interferes with what he wants to do.with the
>
> I could not get him to calm down and I couldn't stay calm myself
> way he was treating me. He wouldn't stop screaming long enough tolisten to
> me. I said it was OK to miss baseball, but it would have been thelast class
> (for 4yr olds, it's mainly a skill building class at the reccenter, not a
> team or anything) and I really wanted him to go. So I kept askingwhy he
> didn't want to go. Probably didn't help. I think he just wanted towatch The
> Incredibles, even though I said we could pause it and finishwatching after
> baseball. The baseball class was only happening now and the moviewould be
> here when we got back. That only made things worse so I unpausedthe movie
> and walked away.of the
>
> It feels like I'm doing something wrong. I'm really getting tired
> physical abuse with him. I try talking to him and he just screams,bucks,
> and hits. I end up leaving the room and sometimes crying because Idon't
> like it ,but also don't know what I am doing wrong. On these days Iam
> fairly certain that he would test positve for ADHD or some otherthing if we
> submitted him for testing, but what would that get us? (I'm notgoing to!
> Just venting a little here! Hoping someone can understand.)enough.
>
> The closest thing I can guess is that he is not eating or drinking
> He refuses most of what I offer. When he asks for something, I getit for
> him right away, and he has access to snacks in cabinets at hislevel. But
> then some days he ends up snacking on chips all day and won't eatdinner. He
> yells how he HATES DINNER. The last couple of times we went out todinner he
> threw a fit either on the way in or at the table. I'm talkingviolent
> actions, hitting, kicking, running away, screaming and laying downon the
> sidewalk before we even got inside. DH doesn't handle this well,but really
> stuck in there the other night when this happened and I said he'sgot to be
> super hungry, I haven't seen him eat in hours, you know how I getcrazy too
> when I don't eat. We used to eat out for lunches 3-4 times a weekso we can
> see his dad, but lately he's been so combative and says he HATESLUNCH and I
> hate fighting with him to get in the car so we don't leave thehouse. DH is
> missing us but doesn't want to be around this behavior either, sohe kind of
> understands. (But if we don't all eat together, DH often skipslunch, so
> then he's a bear when he gets home! But that is a different story!He needs
> to take care of himself.)tell why,
>
> I know we are going through some kind of disconnect, but I can't
> what caused this, or how to deal with it! We've gone on some reallyfun
> outings lately, with and without friends, and he's been fine. He'sgentle
> around my friend's baby, plays well with other kids, talks togrownups to
> tell them what he needs. Then I get THIS. I'm taking a break fromhim right
> now, he's watching another movie, so I thought I'd come here andseek out
> some professional help. :)
>
> Thanks,
> Kim Zerbe
> in Oregon
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Being tested -- to learn how best to help him through difficult
times -- does not have to be a negative thing.-=-
Telling him that his feelings are so wrong that he needs to go to a
doctor and be stuck with a needle is pretty extreme for a four-year-
old. Or that he needs drugs to be normal. Or that there's possibly
something wrong with him.
If the mom tries other strategies and learns ways to make his life
more pleasant, that will be good for both of them, even if there does
turn out to be something organic/physical causing difficulties.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
times -- does not have to be a negative thing.-=-
Telling him that his feelings are so wrong that he needs to go to a
doctor and be stuck with a needle is pretty extreme for a four-year-
old. Or that he needs drugs to be normal. Or that there's possibly
something wrong with him.
If the mom tries other strategies and learns ways to make his life
more pleasant, that will be good for both of them, even if there does
turn out to be something organic/physical causing difficulties.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/12/2009 7:16 PM, Kim Zerbe wrote:
to do.
Reading your whole post, Kim, this is jumping to conclusions, but I have
a gut feeling that your expectations of him are too high. Four years old
is so very young - his nervous system is still developing and you might
be stressing it too much. You're expecting a lot of him - lots and lots
of us found that our kids couldn't handle going to ANY kind of "class"
at that age. Baseball class could be very stressful for him and he might
be very very torn because you so obviously want him to do it. Even going
out to lunch with his dad might be stressful - restaurants are NOT
particularly kid-happy places. Not relaxing for him.
Also - do you realize you described your husband as becoming a "bear"
when he doesn't eat lunch?
My suggestions for undoing the damage:
1. Do not try to talk him into doing or going to anything at all. ONLY
go out and do things if he is happily asking to do them. For now, I
wouldn't even offer anything (just temporarily - maybe for 6 months). He
knows enough about what's out there - he knows going to lunch with his
dad is a possibility. He can ask if that's something he wants to do.
2. Don't try to feed him - put food where he can get it, but don't tell
him it is time to eat it. Be sure there is ALWAYS food available,
though. Offer a variety - you don't have to offer everything all the
time, but change it out every hour or two. If he says he hates it, just
be calm and say, "Well, it is there if you feel like it." pay attention
to what he does eat, and put out more of that and less of what he turns
down.
Could you tell us more about what he likes to do? What is he doing when
he seems calm and happy?
-pam
> Today when I told him it was time to get ready for baseball, he startedI think you try too often to get him to do what you wish he would want
> throwing toys and screaming. When I tried to hold him and ask him what was
>
to do.
Reading your whole post, Kim, this is jumping to conclusions, but I have
a gut feeling that your expectations of him are too high. Four years old
is so very young - his nervous system is still developing and you might
be stressing it too much. You're expecting a lot of him - lots and lots
of us found that our kids couldn't handle going to ANY kind of "class"
at that age. Baseball class could be very stressful for him and he might
be very very torn because you so obviously want him to do it. Even going
out to lunch with his dad might be stressful - restaurants are NOT
particularly kid-happy places. Not relaxing for him.
Also - do you realize you described your husband as becoming a "bear"
when he doesn't eat lunch?
My suggestions for undoing the damage:
1. Do not try to talk him into doing or going to anything at all. ONLY
go out and do things if he is happily asking to do them. For now, I
wouldn't even offer anything (just temporarily - maybe for 6 months). He
knows enough about what's out there - he knows going to lunch with his
dad is a possibility. He can ask if that's something he wants to do.
2. Don't try to feed him - put food where he can get it, but don't tell
him it is time to eat it. Be sure there is ALWAYS food available,
though. Offer a variety - you don't have to offer everything all the
time, but change it out every hour or two. If he says he hates it, just
be calm and say, "Well, it is there if you feel like it." pay attention
to what he does eat, and put out more of that and less of what he turns
down.
Could you tell us more about what he likes to do? What is he doing when
he seems calm and happy?
-pam
Lyla Wolfenstein
i agree with ALL of what pam wrote, and have found it to be exactly what was needed for my son, after a start that sounds similar to yours.
i think it can be really hard to separate *our* needs and desires from what our kids are really showing us they need. but it's SO important.
warmly, Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
i think it can be really hard to separate *our* needs and desires from what our kids are really showing us they need. but it's SO important.
warmly, Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ward
Hi Kim,
My children are now all in their teens and sometimes I feel I expect too much of them but I would urge you to think that your 4yo is still only a baby really. He does not need to be going to baseball or any other organised classes at all.
I have two teens who are really into karate. They have chosen the sport for themselves and are committed to it with a passion. Neither of them began the sport until they were 11 or 12 and it was their choice. They have made rapid progress in their sport and I think this is because they chose it. They tried lots of other things but we never forced them to stick with them if interest waned.
Karate operates as an "all age" activity so you get adults and teens who have a passion, children who are developing a passion and some children whose parents think karate is a good idea. It is patently obvious when a child has not chosen for him or her self. Not only does the child not enjoy training but those children annoy those who truly love their chosen sport.
I agree with giving children an opportunity to experience things but for young children the commitment of going to a weekly session of anything (or several anythings) can just be too tiring and overwhelming.
If I had my time over again with 4 yos we would hang out at home or in casual settings even more than we did. Four year olds don't need organised sports.
I agree that you should let your son eat when he is hungry but (and this may be unpopular here) I believe you can limit the choices that are available. I find that even for myself. I'll choose chips if they are there so I avoid them being there and then I make a better food choice. We have always had a fruit bowl accessible 24/7, my teens take nuts and fruit to
karate as a good filler. I would aim to make available foods that are enjoyable but also nutritional rather than empty calories like chips. You may also need to help your son understand hunger signals. My youngest daughter often "lost it" when she was young (ages 3 to 6) if she needed food but it took her a long time to realise that it was hunger that made her angry. You can help him with this by offering healthy filling snacks regularly through the day.
Hope this helps.
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My children are now all in their teens and sometimes I feel I expect too much of them but I would urge you to think that your 4yo is still only a baby really. He does not need to be going to baseball or any other organised classes at all.
I have two teens who are really into karate. They have chosen the sport for themselves and are committed to it with a passion. Neither of them began the sport until they were 11 or 12 and it was their choice. They have made rapid progress in their sport and I think this is because they chose it. They tried lots of other things but we never forced them to stick with them if interest waned.
Karate operates as an "all age" activity so you get adults and teens who have a passion, children who are developing a passion and some children whose parents think karate is a good idea. It is patently obvious when a child has not chosen for him or her self. Not only does the child not enjoy training but those children annoy those who truly love their chosen sport.
I agree with giving children an opportunity to experience things but for young children the commitment of going to a weekly session of anything (or several anythings) can just be too tiring and overwhelming.
If I had my time over again with 4 yos we would hang out at home or in casual settings even more than we did. Four year olds don't need organised sports.
I agree that you should let your son eat when he is hungry but (and this may be unpopular here) I believe you can limit the choices that are available. I find that even for myself. I'll choose chips if they are there so I avoid them being there and then I make a better food choice. We have always had a fruit bowl accessible 24/7, my teens take nuts and fruit to
karate as a good filler. I would aim to make available foods that are enjoyable but also nutritional rather than empty calories like chips. You may also need to help your son understand hunger signals. My youngest daughter often "lost it" when she was young (ages 3 to 6) if she needed food but it took her a long time to realise that it was hunger that made her angry. You can help him with this by offering healthy filling snacks regularly through the day.
Hope this helps.
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
Jayn is 9 and becomes very agitated, hostile and violent when she is hungry
at home. She seems to be able to hold herself in and exercise restraint when
she is around others, but I think her ability to make good choices is
compromised when she is particularly hungry. She sometimes gets hungry
startlingly quickly compared to when she last ate, and sometimes (although
more rarely as time goes on) it catches me by surprise. When I start to
sense hostility in her tone of voice, I tend to start getting some food out.
At normal times when she announces that she is hungry (as compared to asking
for something particular), we have a kind of verbal dance around her being
hungry and me offering what is available. If I ask her what she has a
hankering for, it is only rarely that she can tell me and she often
expresses impatience or frustration at being asked, so instead I list what
we have and then she will either latch happily on to an meal (I think she
pictures it before deciding) or know that she certainly does not want that
thing. If she is unable to decide, especially if I am hungry too, I will go
ahead and make something that I know she likes "for myself". Usually she
will then want it for herself when it is fragrant and appetizing right in
front of her. Or it spurs her to make a different decision.
But those other times when she is teetering on this edge of crazy angry, it
is futile and excessively time consuming to do this. The best thing I can do
is just start cooking or putting together foods that I know she usually
likes.
However the really best thing is anticipate her hunger if I can. My worry is
that too many of our conversations recently have revolved around food and
making sure that Jayn has eaten recently, especially when it is just the two
of us. It may be time to return to an old strategy I used to employ
sometimes late at night, of preparing the park/outing food bag full of a
variety of stuff and setting it out near her. This doesn't always help if
she is hankering for hot foods, (maybe I need a soup thermos!) but it
sometimes keeps things more appealing than out on a plate in the air. Also
there is a certain element of fun in pulling things in little containers or
baggies out of the bag.
Another thing that helps Jayn get happy again very quickly are fruit and
yogurt smoothies. They are fast to make and usually very filling. I
generally add an egg to enhance the whipped texture.
Kim, you mentioned food or snacks being available for your son in the low
cupboard. That is great to have, but don't rely on him fetching his own
snacks or have the expectation that he will remember to go to cupboard when
he is in the middle of some other engaging activity. It has only been in the
last 2 years that Jayn has started getting her own snacks, and the last
couple of months that she has been going directly to the fridge to get out
her own drink instead of asking me for one. OTOH she likes to cook and will
happily prepare scrambled eggs or grilled cheese sandwiches for other people
in her life. Just like she used to offer to carry my plate to the kitchen,
but never want to take her own.
As for going places, it can seem to a child that parents pretend to offer
the choice to go, but then in their next words or actions take the choice
back, even when the parental intention is honest. What I have done with Jayn
is say, "If you want to go to whatever, we should leave in 10 minutes" or in
the case of someone as young as Kim's son, "after the next scene when thus
and such happens" or "when you have done that much more" - tieing the timing
to a known current activity. I will speak again just before the "point of no
return" for punctuality and offer to make a call at that time, if that is
Jayn's decision. Usually she will jump up to go; sometimes she really
doesn't want to go and that is good to know too.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
at home. She seems to be able to hold herself in and exercise restraint when
she is around others, but I think her ability to make good choices is
compromised when she is particularly hungry. She sometimes gets hungry
startlingly quickly compared to when she last ate, and sometimes (although
more rarely as time goes on) it catches me by surprise. When I start to
sense hostility in her tone of voice, I tend to start getting some food out.
At normal times when she announces that she is hungry (as compared to asking
for something particular), we have a kind of verbal dance around her being
hungry and me offering what is available. If I ask her what she has a
hankering for, it is only rarely that she can tell me and she often
expresses impatience or frustration at being asked, so instead I list what
we have and then she will either latch happily on to an meal (I think she
pictures it before deciding) or know that she certainly does not want that
thing. If she is unable to decide, especially if I am hungry too, I will go
ahead and make something that I know she likes "for myself". Usually she
will then want it for herself when it is fragrant and appetizing right in
front of her. Or it spurs her to make a different decision.
But those other times when she is teetering on this edge of crazy angry, it
is futile and excessively time consuming to do this. The best thing I can do
is just start cooking or putting together foods that I know she usually
likes.
However the really best thing is anticipate her hunger if I can. My worry is
that too many of our conversations recently have revolved around food and
making sure that Jayn has eaten recently, especially when it is just the two
of us. It may be time to return to an old strategy I used to employ
sometimes late at night, of preparing the park/outing food bag full of a
variety of stuff and setting it out near her. This doesn't always help if
she is hankering for hot foods, (maybe I need a soup thermos!) but it
sometimes keeps things more appealing than out on a plate in the air. Also
there is a certain element of fun in pulling things in little containers or
baggies out of the bag.
Another thing that helps Jayn get happy again very quickly are fruit and
yogurt smoothies. They are fast to make and usually very filling. I
generally add an egg to enhance the whipped texture.
Kim, you mentioned food or snacks being available for your son in the low
cupboard. That is great to have, but don't rely on him fetching his own
snacks or have the expectation that he will remember to go to cupboard when
he is in the middle of some other engaging activity. It has only been in the
last 2 years that Jayn has started getting her own snacks, and the last
couple of months that she has been going directly to the fridge to get out
her own drink instead of asking me for one. OTOH she likes to cook and will
happily prepare scrambled eggs or grilled cheese sandwiches for other people
in her life. Just like she used to offer to carry my plate to the kitchen,
but never want to take her own.
As for going places, it can seem to a child that parents pretend to offer
the choice to go, but then in their next words or actions take the choice
back, even when the parental intention is honest. What I have done with Jayn
is say, "If you want to go to whatever, we should leave in 10 minutes" or in
the case of someone as young as Kim's son, "after the next scene when thus
and such happens" or "when you have done that much more" - tieing the timing
to a known current activity. I will speak again just before the "point of no
return" for punctuality and offer to make a call at that time, if that is
Jayn's decision. Usually she will jump up to go; sometimes she really
doesn't want to go and that is good to know too.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Pam Sorooshian
On 2/13/2009 12:51 AM, Ward wrote:
for chips or anything else. The main thing I noticed is that my kids
always ate very very healthy foods if they were available. Fruit that is
in the refrigerator, in the fruit drawer, and needs washing is NOT seen
as "available." So I washed it and put it out and often sliced it up and
served it with little chunks of cheese or on toothpicks or sprinkled
with cinnamon. I like to put out apple or pear slices with little
pudding cups to use as dip. Banana slices with cinnamon were good too.
And I'd make peanut butter balls and freeze them - but put out a handful
on a plate to make them convenient. My kids really liked frozen peas and
frozen grapes and frozen corn, right out of the freezer, but they
wouldn't get it themselves, so I'd put some out for them. I also buy
really good bread and put a little peanut butter or almond butter on it.
These days, my kids like the Western Alternative Bagels or English
muffins with a little light cream cheese. I buy the multi-grain pasta
and my kids always liked that cooked with just some grated Parmesan
cheese on it. They also liked sliced cucumber spears with salt. They
liked pretzels with apple chunks. They liked carrots with Ranch dressing
dip or with plain yogurt mixed with dill as a dip. They like the low-fat
Triscuits or that style cracker with grated cheese sprinkled on top and
melted in the microwave. They loved tofu cut into chunks and coated with
corn flakes and baked in the oven. They like hummus a lot - usually on
pita bread and with cucumbers. They like potatoes - mashed or baked. I
used to buy those prewashed and wrapped in plastic potatoes and sweet
potatoes because they were very convenient. They like the butternut
squash that we can get at Trader Joes and some other places in a packet
that goes right into the microwave. They like popcorn a lot. They like
cereal with fruit. They really like almonds and pecans. Hard-boiled eggs
or deviled eggs are great, too.
So - that gives you some idea of the kinds of things that I mean when I
said put food out.
I think sometimes people think when we say "no restrictions" that our
kids eat nothing but bags of chips and boxes of cookies all day long.
Far from it. We had a big party here on January 31st and we still have
several big bags of chips on the kitchen counter. I think everybody had
as much of them as they're interested in having and the big bags have
been unopened for the past week. I bought a big bag of M&M's today and
had a handful of them - they sat out for hours, right in front of
everyone, and nobody else touched them.
The deal is that kids who have had restricted food choices will gorge
themselves when the restrictions are lifted, but those who have always
had primarily unrestricted food choices (restricted only by what we can
afford and sometimes having to wait until the next shopping trip) don't
seem to have any urge to over-indulge on less healthy foods.
We recently spent some time visiting the Dodds in Albuquerque and the
whole time we were there there was a bunch of kinds of candy and nuts
and cookies sitting out on the counter. Most of it was still sitting
there when we left and I'm sure I, myself, ate more of it than everyone
else put together. "I" have to resist eating sweets, but Sandra's kids
and my kids don't have to resist it - they eat what appeals to them and
sweets aren't more appealing than other food.
> I agree that you should let your son eat when he is hungry but (and this may be unpopular here) I believe you can limit the choices that are available. I find that even for myself. I'll choose chips if they are there so I avoid them being there and then I make a better food choice. We have always had a fruit bowl accessible 24/7, my teens take nuts and fruit toI fill our kitchen with healthy foods. But I don't turn down requests
> karate as a good filler. I would aim to make available foods that are enjoyable but also nutritional rather than empty calories like chips. You may also need to help your son understand hunger signals. My youngest daughter often "lost it" when she was young (ages 3 to 6) if she needed food but it took her a long time to realise that it was hunger that made her angry. You can help him with this by offering healthy filling snacks regularly through the day.
>
for chips or anything else. The main thing I noticed is that my kids
always ate very very healthy foods if they were available. Fruit that is
in the refrigerator, in the fruit drawer, and needs washing is NOT seen
as "available." So I washed it and put it out and often sliced it up and
served it with little chunks of cheese or on toothpicks or sprinkled
with cinnamon. I like to put out apple or pear slices with little
pudding cups to use as dip. Banana slices with cinnamon were good too.
And I'd make peanut butter balls and freeze them - but put out a handful
on a plate to make them convenient. My kids really liked frozen peas and
frozen grapes and frozen corn, right out of the freezer, but they
wouldn't get it themselves, so I'd put some out for them. I also buy
really good bread and put a little peanut butter or almond butter on it.
These days, my kids like the Western Alternative Bagels or English
muffins with a little light cream cheese. I buy the multi-grain pasta
and my kids always liked that cooked with just some grated Parmesan
cheese on it. They also liked sliced cucumber spears with salt. They
liked pretzels with apple chunks. They liked carrots with Ranch dressing
dip or with plain yogurt mixed with dill as a dip. They like the low-fat
Triscuits or that style cracker with grated cheese sprinkled on top and
melted in the microwave. They loved tofu cut into chunks and coated with
corn flakes and baked in the oven. They like hummus a lot - usually on
pita bread and with cucumbers. They like potatoes - mashed or baked. I
used to buy those prewashed and wrapped in plastic potatoes and sweet
potatoes because they were very convenient. They like the butternut
squash that we can get at Trader Joes and some other places in a packet
that goes right into the microwave. They like popcorn a lot. They like
cereal with fruit. They really like almonds and pecans. Hard-boiled eggs
or deviled eggs are great, too.
So - that gives you some idea of the kinds of things that I mean when I
said put food out.
I think sometimes people think when we say "no restrictions" that our
kids eat nothing but bags of chips and boxes of cookies all day long.
Far from it. We had a big party here on January 31st and we still have
several big bags of chips on the kitchen counter. I think everybody had
as much of them as they're interested in having and the big bags have
been unopened for the past week. I bought a big bag of M&M's today and
had a handful of them - they sat out for hours, right in front of
everyone, and nobody else touched them.
The deal is that kids who have had restricted food choices will gorge
themselves when the restrictions are lifted, but those who have always
had primarily unrestricted food choices (restricted only by what we can
afford and sometimes having to wait until the next shopping trip) don't
seem to have any urge to over-indulge on less healthy foods.
We recently spent some time visiting the Dodds in Albuquerque and the
whole time we were there there was a bunch of kinds of candy and nuts
and cookies sitting out on the counter. Most of it was still sitting
there when we left and I'm sure I, myself, ate more of it than everyone
else put together. "I" have to resist eating sweets, but Sandra's kids
and my kids don't have to resist it - they eat what appeals to them and
sweets aren't more appealing than other food.
k
>>>> I agree that you should let your son eat when he is hungry but (and this may be unpopular here) I believe you can limit the choices that are available. I find that even for myself. I'll choose chips if they are there so I avoid them being there and then I make a better food choice. <<<<Limiting someone other than myself is still not something I would
consider. I would want to offer things that have been directly asked
for or are an obvious favorite. Such a favorite that it seems to be
*all* a kid wants to eat! How does it help with unschooling and
development of hunger awareness to deny a child what they obviously
want? I would think it would create a feeling of being deprived,
which could easily be avoided just by offering chips ..... along with
other food choices.
Some ideas about how to do that: http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter
In fact, we went all out and offered many different kinds of chips
when Karl was so much into chip eating. His favorites have changed
and he has better knowledge of chips and how he feels after eating
them. It's interesting what he says about them now .... that they
don't always make his tummy feel great. He still loves chips but
tends toward the less greasy varieties most of the time. And at 4,
Karl ate so many chips *all* the time that it was beginning to worry
me sometimes. But it has worked out fine over time. He eats lots of
different foods now and continues to expand on the different things
he's willing to eat.
It's the age. Probably the majority of kids go through several food
phobias in an attempt to control what's safe for them to eat. Don't
spend time telling kids that some food is good for them and some is
bad--they're already skeptics! What we want is to make the whole
feeling about food to be fun.
That it *is* good for them to eat all kinds of things will become more
and more obvious to them without us having to say a lot about it.
People naturally like some things better than other things and their
preferences will change over time at least somewhat ---if they have
the choice to form their own decisions about what they eat in the
first place. Just offer more and different things in small cute
containers and have fun with it.
~Katherine
Schuyler
To add to Pam's words, we have a drawer filled with chips. In the UK chips typically come in single serving bags and we have maybe 20 or 30 bags or chips in a drawer. They are almost entirely eaten by visitors and rarely eaten by any of us. I just made a couple of batches of homemade potato chips and made sweet potato chips for the first time. I'd tried making them a number of times before but never got the potatoes thin enough. The other day I read an article about cheap food for a recession and this chef said that deep fried potato peelings were really good, so I tried it. They are really good. And if you peel a whole potato and deep fry it, you get a bunch of chips that are amazing. I even tried saving peelings in the fridge in a bowl of salty water, and they were fine the second day. The sweet potato chips were really good, as well. I make homemade tortilla chips as well. Blue corn masa harina seems to make a nicer chip then yellow.
I just cut up pears and put them in front of Simon and Linnaea. They are eating them. If they didn't I'd put them in the compost. They both really like Japanese spicy rice crackers with peanuts. We order them on-line about once a month and they disappear quickly at first and then more steadily as the novelty wears off. Linnaea really enjoys soda. I got her an old fashioned soda water bottle where you fizz up tap water with CO2 canisters. I just got more canisters and new syrups so we've had cinnamon sodas and apple sodas and cherry sodas and coconut sodas, and cherry and cinnamon (not so good) and apple and cinnamon (which I quite liked) as well as having Roy Rogers and Shirley Temples by mixing the cherry syrup with coke or sprite. Peanut butter toast or crackers is well liked. Nachos with beans, baked beans on toast, rice cakes with cream cheese or peanut butter, hummus with bell peppers and bread sticks, toasted nori sheets, nori rolls, bean burritos,
breakfast burritos, pancakes with lemon and sugar in lieu of syrup, pancakes with syrup, galia melon, coconut pieces from a coconut that you bang open with a hammer, kiwi, cucumber, homemade french fries, store bought American curly fries, scones with butter and honey only when fresh from the oven, challah with butter, bagels with avocado, English muffins (I can't think what they are called here, not English though), diner style cherry pie with digestive biscuit (closest thing to graham crackers available) crust and whipped cream on top, matzo with butter and vegemite. And it goes on. It is all about what is in the fridge and the cupboard and that I'm in the mood to make. But it doesn't look like a child who is gorging on chips and candy and soda pop because, somehow, a diet with no limits is presumed to end with an obese, crumby child.
It is like all the rest of unschooling, it is seeing what your child likes and strewing things around that interest. If your child seems to thrive on starches, come up with things that are linked to starches, and put other things out that may be unrelated but you think they might enjoy. It is also time, it is thinking about them being hungry and giving them food. It is getting food at the store that you can put together into appealing platters. It is looking at recipes or ideas for things and preparing those. Food is a wonderfully strewable thing. Both Simon and Linnaea have a very diverse range of experience when it comes to food. I always ask before I go to the grocery store to see if they want anything, or if they have any meals they specifically want, lately they haven't asked for much on my grocery runs. Yesterday, however, Simon wanted profiteroles, so we got some. Linnaea wanted custard, that's in the cupboard. I'll go get her some now.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 13 February, 2009 11:43:02 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] is this what ADHD looks like?!
I just cut up pears and put them in front of Simon and Linnaea. They are eating them. If they didn't I'd put them in the compost. They both really like Japanese spicy rice crackers with peanuts. We order them on-line about once a month and they disappear quickly at first and then more steadily as the novelty wears off. Linnaea really enjoys soda. I got her an old fashioned soda water bottle where you fizz up tap water with CO2 canisters. I just got more canisters and new syrups so we've had cinnamon sodas and apple sodas and cherry sodas and coconut sodas, and cherry and cinnamon (not so good) and apple and cinnamon (which I quite liked) as well as having Roy Rogers and Shirley Temples by mixing the cherry syrup with coke or sprite. Peanut butter toast or crackers is well liked. Nachos with beans, baked beans on toast, rice cakes with cream cheese or peanut butter, hummus with bell peppers and bread sticks, toasted nori sheets, nori rolls, bean burritos,
breakfast burritos, pancakes with lemon and sugar in lieu of syrup, pancakes with syrup, galia melon, coconut pieces from a coconut that you bang open with a hammer, kiwi, cucumber, homemade french fries, store bought American curly fries, scones with butter and honey only when fresh from the oven, challah with butter, bagels with avocado, English muffins (I can't think what they are called here, not English though), diner style cherry pie with digestive biscuit (closest thing to graham crackers available) crust and whipped cream on top, matzo with butter and vegemite. And it goes on. It is all about what is in the fridge and the cupboard and that I'm in the mood to make. But it doesn't look like a child who is gorging on chips and candy and soda pop because, somehow, a diet with no limits is presumed to end with an obese, crumby child.
It is like all the rest of unschooling, it is seeing what your child likes and strewing things around that interest. If your child seems to thrive on starches, come up with things that are linked to starches, and put other things out that may be unrelated but you think they might enjoy. It is also time, it is thinking about them being hungry and giving them food. It is getting food at the store that you can put together into appealing platters. It is looking at recipes or ideas for things and preparing those. Food is a wonderfully strewable thing. Both Simon and Linnaea have a very diverse range of experience when it comes to food. I always ask before I go to the grocery store to see if they want anything, or if they have any meals they specifically want, lately they haven't asked for much on my grocery runs. Yesterday, however, Simon wanted profiteroles, so we got some. Linnaea wanted custard, that's in the cupboard. I'll go get her some now.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 13 February, 2009 11:43:02 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] is this what ADHD looks like?!
On 2/13/2009 12:51 AM, Ward wrote:
> I agree that you should let your son eat when he is hungry but (and this may be unpopular here) I believe you can limit the choices that are available. I find that even for myself. I'll choose chips if they are there so I avoid them being there and then I make a better food choice. We have always had a fruit bowl accessible 24/7, my teens take nuts and fruit to
> karate as a good filler. I would aim to make available foods that are enjoyable but also nutritional rather than empty calories like chips. You may also need to help your son understand hunger signals. My youngest daughter often "lost it" when she was young (ages 3 to 6) if she needed food but it took her a long time to realise that it was hunger that made her angry. You can help him with this by offering healthy filling snacks regularly through the day.
>
I fill our kitchen with healthy foods. But I don't turn down requests
for chips or anything else. The main thing I noticed is that my kids
always ate very very healthy foods if they were available. Fruit that is
in the refrigerator, in the fruit drawer, and needs washing is NOT seen
as "available." So I washed it and put it out and often sliced it up and
served it with little chunks of cheese or on toothpicks or sprinkled
with cinnamon. I like to put out apple or pear slices with little
pudding cups to use as dip. Banana slices with cinnamon were good too.
And I'd make peanut butter balls and freeze them - but put out a handful
on a plate to make them convenient. My kids really liked frozen peas and
frozen grapes and frozen corn, right out of the freezer, but they
wouldn't get it themselves, so I'd put some out for them. I also buy
really good bread and put a little peanut butter or almond butter on it.
These days, my kids like the Western Alternative Bagels or English
muffins with a little light cream cheese. I buy the multi-grain pasta
and my kids always liked that cooked with just some grated Parmesan
cheese on it. They also liked sliced cucumber spears with salt. They
liked pretzels with apple chunks. They liked carrots with Ranch dressing
dip or with plain yogurt mixed with dill as a dip. They like the low-fat
Triscuits or that style cracker with grated cheese sprinkled on top and
melted in the microwave. They loved tofu cut into chunks and coated with
corn flakes and baked in the oven. They like hummus a lot - usually on
pita bread and with cucumbers. They like potatoes - mashed or baked. I
used to buy those prewashed and wrapped in plastic potatoes and sweet
potatoes because they were very convenient. They like the butternut
squash that we can get at Trader Joes and some other places in a packet
that goes right into the microwave. They like popcorn a lot. They like
cereal with fruit. They really like almonds and pecans. Hard-boiled eggs
or deviled eggs are great, too.
So - that gives you some idea of the kinds of things that I mean when I
said put food out.
I think sometimes people think when we say "no restrictions" that our
kids eat nothing but bags of chips and boxes of cookies all day long.
Far from it. We had a big party here on January 31st and we still have
several big bags of chips on the kitchen counter. I think everybody had
as much of them as they're interested in having and the big bags have
been unopened for the past week. I bought a big bag of M&M's today and
had a handful of them - they sat out for hours, right in front of
everyone, and nobody else touched them.
The deal is that kids who have had restricted food choices will gorge
themselves when the restrictions are lifted, but those who have always
had primarily unrestricted food choices (restricted only by what we can
afford and sometimes having to wait until the next shopping trip) don't
seem to have any urge to over-indulge on less healthy foods.
We recently spent some time visiting the Dodds in Albuquerque and the
whole time we were there there was a bunch of kinds of candy and nuts
and cookies sitting out on the counter. Most of it was still sitting
there when we left and I'm sure I, myself, ate more of it than everyone
else put together. "I" have to resist eating sweets, but Sandra's kids
and my kids don't have to resist it - they eat what appeals to them and
sweets aren't more appealing than other food.
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
P.S. moved to the top: This seems like a lot of reading and
learning. While/if you're looking into principles of child
development and need, be with your child in child-like ways. Be where
he is emotionally, and physically. Play with him. Provide for
him. Take him and find new things to see and consider all his
senses: new things to smell, taste, touch, see, hear.
And here's my original post, but it could take hours to really look at
these, and days to consider them, so immediate attention to your son
is more important.
-=-Reading your whole post, Kim, this is jumping to conclusions, but I
have
a gut feeling that your expectations of him are too high.-=-
One thought that came to me when I read it was "Piaget." I didn't
pursue that thought, but Pam's comment has revived it.
It's worth looking at Piaget's stages of development. And maybe at
attachment parenting pages. They're pretty easily googled, but
here's something I saved:
http://sandradodd.com/attachment
Here's an easy summary of Piaget's stages of development:
http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/committees/FacDevCom/guidebk/teachtip/piaget.htm
Every unschooling parent, every parent of any kind, could use knowing
about these stages of development and about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
Here's an explanation that might help with younger children:
http://sfhelp.org/02/needlevels.htm
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
learning. While/if you're looking into principles of child
development and need, be with your child in child-like ways. Be where
he is emotionally, and physically. Play with him. Provide for
him. Take him and find new things to see and consider all his
senses: new things to smell, taste, touch, see, hear.
And here's my original post, but it could take hours to really look at
these, and days to consider them, so immediate attention to your son
is more important.
-=-Reading your whole post, Kim, this is jumping to conclusions, but I
have
a gut feeling that your expectations of him are too high.-=-
One thought that came to me when I read it was "Piaget." I didn't
pursue that thought, but Pam's comment has revived it.
It's worth looking at Piaget's stages of development. And maybe at
attachment parenting pages. They're pretty easily googled, but
here's something I saved:
http://sandradodd.com/attachment
Here's an easy summary of Piaget's stages of development:
http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/intranet/committees/FacDevCom/guidebk/teachtip/piaget.htm
Every unschooling parent, every parent of any kind, could use knowing
about these stages of development and about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
Here's an explanation that might help with younger children:
http://sfhelp.org/02/needlevels.htm
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-i think it can be really hard to separate *our* needs and desires
from what our kids are really showing us they need. but it's SO
important.-=-
It is at the heart of unschooling and of being a mindful parent for
the parent to need and desire to give the child what the child needs.
Being a child's partner means helping him meet his needs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
from what our kids are really showing us they need. but it's SO
important.-=-
It is at the heart of unschooling and of being a mindful parent for
the parent to need and desire to give the child what the child needs.
Being a child's partner means helping him meet his needs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Karate operates as an "all age" activity so you get adults and teens
who have a passion, children who are developing a passion and some
children whose parents think karate is a good idea. It is patently
obvious when a child has not chosen for him or her self. -=-
Kirby started karate at 10 or 11. When he was older, and teaching
the young children's beginner classes, he said the greatest disruption
to the classes and the saddest thing was when these very young
children were there pretty much against their will.
Holly went to the dojo for six months or so when she was young, eight
or so maybe? Younger maybe. But she didn't like it because the other
kids wouldn't be serious and pay attention. She would've been happy
in a group of others who really wanted to do it.
I tried to explain to them that karate seems like playing, like
recess, and that those kids are messed up by school, and have learned
only to do the bare minimum to get by, and that goofing around feels
like a win to them. But it bothered Holly so much that as soon as
she got her first belt she quit.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karate operates as an "all age" activity so you get adults and teens
who have a passion, children who are developing a passion and some
children whose parents think karate is a good idea. It is patently
obvious when a child has not chosen for him or her self. -=-
Kirby started karate at 10 or 11. When he was older, and teaching
the young children's beginner classes, he said the greatest disruption
to the classes and the saddest thing was when these very young
children were there pretty much against their will.
Holly went to the dojo for six months or so when she was young, eight
or so maybe? Younger maybe. But she didn't like it because the other
kids wouldn't be serious and pay attention. She would've been happy
in a group of others who really wanted to do it.
I tried to explain to them that karate seems like playing, like
recess, and that those kids are messed up by school, and have learned
only to do the bare minimum to get by, and that goofing around feels
like a win to them. But it bothered Holly so much that as soon as
she got her first belt she quit.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Limiting someone other than myself is still not something I would
consider. I would want to offer things that have been directly asked
for or are an obvious favorite. -=-
This morning I got a chain letter about recipes. I'm supposed to send
a recipe to the top person on the chain. She's in England. Many of
my recipes won't work there (or might, but not easily or inexpensively).
So I'm thinking about availability and limits this morning.
You don't have to "consider" limiting your child to be effectively
limiting him. It's natural. If Holly wanted a papaya right now, or a
mango, the best I could do would be to get sliced dried, or maybe
canned-in-syrup. MAYBE at the international grocery store, Ta Lin,
they might have some two-week or month-old papayas. Parts of the
year, we can get mangos.
Sometimes I want grapes, but I decide against it because it's way off
season and they're very expensive and came from Chile or somewhere way
away.
Limiting what's already in the house or what grows in the yard,
though, that's a whole 'nother thing.
But how do things get into the house? Trips to the store aren't the
same as bringing the whole store home. People DO make choices. I
haven't bought marshmallows nor anything with marshmallows in it, for
a couple of years. I could. I could buy marshmallows every single
day. I don't.
There are realities and preferences and quirks and geographical
realities and budgetary considerations.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
consider. I would want to offer things that have been directly asked
for or are an obvious favorite. -=-
This morning I got a chain letter about recipes. I'm supposed to send
a recipe to the top person on the chain. She's in England. Many of
my recipes won't work there (or might, but not easily or inexpensively).
So I'm thinking about availability and limits this morning.
You don't have to "consider" limiting your child to be effectively
limiting him. It's natural. If Holly wanted a papaya right now, or a
mango, the best I could do would be to get sliced dried, or maybe
canned-in-syrup. MAYBE at the international grocery store, Ta Lin,
they might have some two-week or month-old papayas. Parts of the
year, we can get mangos.
Sometimes I want grapes, but I decide against it because it's way off
season and they're very expensive and came from Chile or somewhere way
away.
Limiting what's already in the house or what grows in the yard,
though, that's a whole 'nother thing.
But how do things get into the house? Trips to the store aren't the
same as bringing the whole store home. People DO make choices. I
haven't bought marshmallows nor anything with marshmallows in it, for
a couple of years. I could. I could buy marshmallows every single
day. I don't.
There are realities and preferences and quirks and geographical
realities and budgetary considerations.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I always ask before I go to the grocery store to see if they want
anything, or if they have any meals they specifically want, lately
they haven't asked for much on my grocery runs. Yesterday, however,
Simon wanted profiteroles, so we got some. Linnaea wanted custard,
that's in the cupboard. I'll go get her some now. -=-
I always ask too.
Yesterday Holly wanted spinach pasta.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
anything, or if they have any meals they specifically want, lately
they haven't asked for much on my grocery runs. Yesterday, however,
Simon wanted profiteroles, so we got some. Linnaea wanted custard,
that's in the cupboard. I'll go get her some now. -=-
I always ask too.
Yesterday Holly wanted spinach pasta.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John and Amanda Slater
--- On Thu, 2/12/09, Kim Zerbe <kim.zerbe@...> wrote:
I've been having some hard times with my son. Lately he has taken to
screaming at the top of his lungs, which is annoying to say the least, but I
also don't know what to do about it. I'm trying to find a reason he might be
doing this and can't seem to. He seems mad at me but won't say why. But
wait, there's more.*****Some kids are not just very verbal about what is in their heads. Both my boys can talk up a storm, but if you ask whether their shoes fit right, they cannot always answer.
****
Today when I told him it was time to get ready for baseball, he started
throwing toys and screaming. When I tried to hold him and ask him what was
wrong, he hit me and tried to bang his head into mine (I wouldn't let him,
but as I tried to hold his arms all I could do was flip my neck back and he
banged into my chest). I tried to hold him sideways in my lap and he just
bucked all over the place and shook his head like he was having a seizure,
yelling nonsense at the same time. I tried to remain calm and said "Look,
you don't have to go to baseball if you really don't want to go, but this is
not the way to act. Just tell me you don't want to go!" So he yelled "I HATE
BASEBALL AND I HATE YOU!!!" His new thing is that he hates whatever it is I
want to do or whatever interferes with what he wants to do. ***Try to back off in the moment and ask smaller questions later. Instead of why did you not want to go, ask "did the coach yell too much", and then maybe later ask about a kid he did not like, and maybe the next day ask ask if the does not like the sound of the whistle. Or whatever it was that you can think might have bothered him. Remember he may not answer. Sometimes you will never know what was wrong. Sometimes you hit the right question and you learn a little more about you child. Be observant because he may not be able to talk about it later. When you sense he is annoyed, back off.
******I think he just wanted to watch The
Incredibles, even though I said we could pause it and finish watching after
baseball. The baseball class was only happening now and the movie would be
here when we got back. That only made things worse so I unpaused the movie
and walked away.*****Did you warn him before he put the movie in that there would not be time to finish? Maybe help him find a shorter movie. Set a timer for how long till you had to leave. Ask him to turn off the movie when there was still a bit a wiggle room to get to basketball?
*******
It feels like I'm doing something wrong. I'm really getting tired of the
physical abuse with him. I try talking to him and he just screams, bucks,
and hits. I end up leaving the room and sometimes crying because I don't
like it ,but also don't know what I am doing wrong.
***You've gotten lots of good ideas for food, but have you considered other physical needs. Eli needed glasses at 5. He was much calmer and much less aggressive once he got them. I really had no real signs he needed them, but he was a different child after he got them. The testing in the dr office is not at all accurate.
*****On these days I am
fairly certain that he would test positve for ADHD or some other thing if we
submitted him for testing, but what would that get us? (I'm not going to!
Just venting a little here! Hoping someone can understand.)****There is nothing stopping you from reading about ADHD without any diagnosis at all. Eli has many characteristics of ADHD or Aspergers. I have found some of the suggestions in books helpful and others not. I think the best book I think is
The Highly Sensitive Child: Helping Our Children Thrive When the World Overwhelms Them (Paperback)
by Elaine Aron
Really, just hang in there. Some days are better than others. Try not too have too many scheduled activities and even less that you have to be absolutely on time for. Build as much flexiblity into your life as possible.
HTH,
AmandaEli 7, Samuel 6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Murphy
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>I do too--my son's yesterday request: mandarin oranges.
> -=-I always ask before I go to the grocery store to see if they want
> anything,
> I always ask too.
>
> Yesterday Holly wanted spinach pasta.
eaglefalconlark
I really seriously doubt it has anything to do with a neurological
disorder, it seems pretty straight-forward interpersonal dynamics to me.
I can understand, when you feel *you're* being reasonable, why you'd
assume that the problem is organic-based, not environmental. But
imagine someone talking to you the way you talk to your son,
consistently over a long period of time, with your own efforts at
being understood going unheard. I'm usually a very calm person, I've
even had people comment on it. My husband and I have had maybe three
quickly resolved disagreements in 12 years together. But I was in a
relationship once where the level of frustration at not feeling heard
or understood became so high that we would regularly get into
SCREAMING matches. If I'd had to deal with that sort of situation when
I was four-year-old (including being physically restrained,) I'm sure
I would have been kicking and hitting as well. I just think it's a
very normal human reaction to respond in a violent way when you pass a
certain threshold of frustration, especially when you feel like you
can't leave the situation (you're dependent or co-dependent.)
act. Just tell me you don't want to go!" So he yelled "I HATE BASEBALL
AND I HATE YOU!!!" [...] but it would have been the last class (for
4yr olds, it's mainly a skill building class at the rec center, not a
team or anything) and I really wanted him to go. So I kept asking why
he didn't want to go.<<<
So, if this is a usual pattern for you, at some point he figured out
that you were not going to ever just accept his 'no', but would keep
trying to get him to do what you want. "Just tell me you don't want to
go" -- the implication of that "just" is that all he has to do to get
you to take him seriously is say 'no', but clearly that's not true,
and he knows that. And what would be the point of continuing to calmly
say 'no' and continue to feel unheard and disrespected, when you will
leave him alone pretty quickly if he has a fit?
The solution seems pretty simple to me: unless it is an emergency
situation, respect his 'no'. Apologize for not doing so in the past
and tell him you understand how frustrating that must have been for
him. Assume that he has good reasons for his 'no', and don't try to
drag out them out of him (which, I bet, he will perceive as a set-up
for judgment.) At four-years-old it's probably not easy for him to
explain to you why he's feeling the way he is anyway. I have a
four-year-old too, and while she has a great vocabulary, it's
difficult for her to elucidate the *why* of her behavior. But that's
developmentally normal for that age.
I'm sure you're right that the intensity of the reaction could have a
lot to do with blood sugar, but his feelings and his strategy for
dealing with the situation are psychological, and would still be there
even if his diet was perfect. Maybe it's a blessing in disguise -- you
might not have realized the extent to which your behavior is affecting
him if his outward reaction was milder.
Linda
disorder, it seems pretty straight-forward interpersonal dynamics to me.
I can understand, when you feel *you're* being reasonable, why you'd
assume that the problem is organic-based, not environmental. But
imagine someone talking to you the way you talk to your son,
consistently over a long period of time, with your own efforts at
being understood going unheard. I'm usually a very calm person, I've
even had people comment on it. My husband and I have had maybe three
quickly resolved disagreements in 12 years together. But I was in a
relationship once where the level of frustration at not feeling heard
or understood became so high that we would regularly get into
SCREAMING matches. If I'd had to deal with that sort of situation when
I was four-year-old (including being physically restrained,) I'm sure
I would have been kicking and hitting as well. I just think it's a
very normal human reaction to respond in a violent way when you pass a
certain threshold of frustration, especially when you feel like you
can't leave the situation (you're dependent or co-dependent.)
>>>I tried to remain calm and said "Look, you don't have to go tobaseball if you really don't want to go, but this is not the way to
act. Just tell me you don't want to go!" So he yelled "I HATE BASEBALL
AND I HATE YOU!!!" [...] but it would have been the last class (for
4yr olds, it's mainly a skill building class at the rec center, not a
team or anything) and I really wanted him to go. So I kept asking why
he didn't want to go.<<<
So, if this is a usual pattern for you, at some point he figured out
that you were not going to ever just accept his 'no', but would keep
trying to get him to do what you want. "Just tell me you don't want to
go" -- the implication of that "just" is that all he has to do to get
you to take him seriously is say 'no', but clearly that's not true,
and he knows that. And what would be the point of continuing to calmly
say 'no' and continue to feel unheard and disrespected, when you will
leave him alone pretty quickly if he has a fit?
The solution seems pretty simple to me: unless it is an emergency
situation, respect his 'no'. Apologize for not doing so in the past
and tell him you understand how frustrating that must have been for
him. Assume that he has good reasons for his 'no', and don't try to
drag out them out of him (which, I bet, he will perceive as a set-up
for judgment.) At four-years-old it's probably not easy for him to
explain to you why he's feeling the way he is anyway. I have a
four-year-old too, and while she has a great vocabulary, it's
difficult for her to elucidate the *why* of her behavior. But that's
developmentally normal for that age.
I'm sure you're right that the intensity of the reaction could have a
lot to do with blood sugar, but his feelings and his strategy for
dealing with the situation are psychological, and would still be there
even if his diet was perfect. Maybe it's a blessing in disguise -- you
might not have realized the extent to which your behavior is affecting
him if his outward reaction was milder.
Linda
cathyandgarth
--- In [email protected], "Kim Zerbe" <kim.zerbe@...>
wrote:
this emotion? If you try to talk him out of hating things he may
feel like you aren't respecting the feelings that he is having at the
moment. Maybe as adults we can distinguish between hate, dislike,
frustration, discontent, unhappiness ... but I think that most 4 year
olds just go with that nice easy emotionally strong word, it really
emcompasses a slew of emotions for them. My 4 year old says
he "hates" everything as well (at some time or another) -- "bored" is
his other favorite catch-all right now as well. He will spend a day
playing with my mom, and when I pick him up he announces, "I hate
Elbo! I'm so bored!" What he means is "I missed you, Mom. I'm
ready to go home." But I don't correct him, I never tell him, "Oh
you don't really hate Elbo. You had a fun day, you did X, Y, Z."
I know you got loads of great advice on the other bits of your
situation. But I suggest letting go of your response to the word
hate. If you are thinking to yourself "I hate it when he uses that
word" then he will pick up on the discrepancy in what you allow
yourself to feel and what you think is okay for him to express.
I am sure that I could be more articulate but I have two boys waiting
patiently for me to get poptropica.com started up for them (highly
recommend this game -- so fun!).
Just learn to love his growing ability to express himself, soon the
word hate will just be one of many different words he will use, but
for now it is just the word of choice -- and it really is JUST a
WORD, kwim?
Cathy
PS All my kids have gone through phases of using the word hate ...
luckliy my oldest taught me well that it is just word and that it is
only my reactions that turn it into a power word.
wrote:
>Do you let him "hate" things? Or do you try to talk him away from
> His new thing is that he hates whatever it is I
> want to do or whatever interferes with what he wants to do.
>
this emotion? If you try to talk him out of hating things he may
feel like you aren't respecting the feelings that he is having at the
moment. Maybe as adults we can distinguish between hate, dislike,
frustration, discontent, unhappiness ... but I think that most 4 year
olds just go with that nice easy emotionally strong word, it really
emcompasses a slew of emotions for them. My 4 year old says
he "hates" everything as well (at some time or another) -- "bored" is
his other favorite catch-all right now as well. He will spend a day
playing with my mom, and when I pick him up he announces, "I hate
Elbo! I'm so bored!" What he means is "I missed you, Mom. I'm
ready to go home." But I don't correct him, I never tell him, "Oh
you don't really hate Elbo. You had a fun day, you did X, Y, Z."
I know you got loads of great advice on the other bits of your
situation. But I suggest letting go of your response to the word
hate. If you are thinking to yourself "I hate it when he uses that
word" then he will pick up on the discrepancy in what you allow
yourself to feel and what you think is okay for him to express.
I am sure that I could be more articulate but I have two boys waiting
patiently for me to get poptropica.com started up for them (highly
recommend this game -- so fun!).
Just learn to love his growing ability to express himself, soon the
word hate will just be one of many different words he will use, but
for now it is just the word of choice -- and it really is JUST a
WORD, kwim?
Cathy
PS All my kids have gone through phases of using the word hate ...
luckliy my oldest taught me well that it is just word and that it is
only my reactions that turn it into a power word.
diana jenner
>While you're on line, take a listen to Sandra's Peaceful, oops, Parenting
> It is at the heart of unschooling and of being a mindful parent for
> the parent to need and desire to give the child what the child needs.
> Being a child's partner means helping him meet his needs.
>
Peacefully <http://www.sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully> recording (at the
bottom of the page -- for free!). Hers is an important voice to carry in
your head at this point... reminding you to take a deep breath, waiting for
that second & better option before acting... and VERY importantly a reminder
that it is not fair to come to your son with your emotions so loaded down
that he is your "last straw" in any situation -- it's important to have
other, healthy sources for the unloading of your baggage, so you may
experience your relationship with him in freedom.
I used a lot of Rescue Remedy, as I struggled finding peace as a single
parent with young children, *for me* -- to give me a chance to step back,
get quiet and recentered, and return to my child as the parent he deserves.
I'm lucky there was only a short gap between being as desperate as you seem
and finding unschooling; there is peace for you both available without
seeking what is wrong... first seek what is *right* and work from there :)
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> .
>
>
>
Lyla Wolfenstein
If I'd had to deal with that sort of situation when
I was four-year-old (including being physically restrained,) I'm sure
I would have been kicking and hitting as well. I just think it's a
very normal human reaction to respond in a violent way when you pass a
certain threshold of frustration, especially when you feel like you>>>>
while i totally agree with everything said above about how this child might be feeling, and how to better respond/interact, i just felt the need to also say that if a 4 year old is hitting and kicking, that is not necesarily ONLY for psychological reasons/because of the way the parent is or isn't handling things. there really are 4 year olds who have never been restrained, whose "no" is respected, etc. who react with intense physicality and emotion to seemingly small situations, and i think it's really important to recognize this temperament trait as well and work *with* it in the child/with the child, rather than just look to oneself and figure out what to apologize for/what one has done "wrong.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was four-year-old (including being physically restrained,) I'm sure
I would have been kicking and hitting as well. I just think it's a
very normal human reaction to respond in a violent way when you pass a
certain threshold of frustration, especially when you feel like you>>>>
while i totally agree with everything said above about how this child might be feeling, and how to better respond/interact, i just felt the need to also say that if a 4 year old is hitting and kicking, that is not necesarily ONLY for psychological reasons/because of the way the parent is or isn't handling things. there really are 4 year olds who have never been restrained, whose "no" is respected, etc. who react with intense physicality and emotion to seemingly small situations, and i think it's really important to recognize this temperament trait as well and work *with* it in the child/with the child, rather than just look to oneself and figure out what to apologize for/what one has done "wrong.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-and i think it's really important to recognize this temperament
trait as well and work *with* it in the child/with the child, rather
than just look to oneself and figure out what to apologize for/what
one has done "wrong.-=-
It still involves the mom changing her response.
Too many parents in the world are now and have always assumed they
were right and good because they were adults and children were bad and
wrong because they were children (and children with something wrong
with them, on top of the general 'wrongness" attributed to children).
It leads to strained relationships and then to hatred, if left to run
its natural course. You could probably name a dozen people without
breathing who hate their parents, or who have lied and sneaked and
move thousands of miles away to get away from their parents. That
relationship began at birth, and there are MANY places along the way
the parents could have changed their attitudes and behaviors to make a
big difference, but few to no places the child could have figured out
what was going on and avoided the influence of the parents.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
trait as well and work *with* it in the child/with the child, rather
than just look to oneself and figure out what to apologize for/what
one has done "wrong.-=-
It still involves the mom changing her response.
Too many parents in the world are now and have always assumed they
were right and good because they were adults and children were bad and
wrong because they were children (and children with something wrong
with them, on top of the general 'wrongness" attributed to children).
It leads to strained relationships and then to hatred, if left to run
its natural course. You could probably name a dozen people without
breathing who hate their parents, or who have lied and sneaked and
move thousands of miles away to get away from their parents. That
relationship began at birth, and there are MANY places along the way
the parents could have changed their attitudes and behaviors to make a
big difference, but few to no places the child could have figured out
what was going on and avoided the influence of the parents.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-****Some kids are not just very verbal about what is in their
heads. Both my boys can talk up a storm, but if you ask whether their
shoes fit right, they cannot always answer.
****-=-
Even adults aren't always clear on what "fit right" means, with shoes.
<g> This comes to mind because both Holly and her boyfriend are in
the selling-of-shoes business lately, in two different stores at the
same mall.
-=-**Did you warn him before he put the movie in that there would not
be time to finish? Maybe help him find a shorter movie. Set a timer
for how long till you had to leave. Ask him to turn off the movie
when there was still a bit a wiggle room to get to basketball?
*******-=-
Quite a bit of expectation for a four year old who might be closer to
three.
Instead of asking a little child to find a good stopping place,
parents can find a good stopping place and a gentle way/excuse to
pause the movie, and something soothing and comforting to do/say/
provide right then.
If a child is playing a video game, I ask if it's a good pausing
place. It might not be. When they get to a good pausing place, then
I ask if the game can be saved. Maybe it can't. Can the remote and
the system be 'stabilized' so no one else will come in and mess the
game up? Maybe.
Putting all those kinds of responsibilities on the child is too much.
Parents (their partners) should help!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
heads. Both my boys can talk up a storm, but if you ask whether their
shoes fit right, they cannot always answer.
****-=-
Even adults aren't always clear on what "fit right" means, with shoes.
<g> This comes to mind because both Holly and her boyfriend are in
the selling-of-shoes business lately, in two different stores at the
same mall.
-=-**Did you warn him before he put the movie in that there would not
be time to finish? Maybe help him find a shorter movie. Set a timer
for how long till you had to leave. Ask him to turn off the movie
when there was still a bit a wiggle room to get to basketball?
*******-=-
Quite a bit of expectation for a four year old who might be closer to
three.
Instead of asking a little child to find a good stopping place,
parents can find a good stopping place and a gentle way/excuse to
pause the movie, and something soothing and comforting to do/say/
provide right then.
If a child is playing a video game, I ask if it's a good pausing
place. It might not be. When they get to a good pausing place, then
I ask if the game can be saved. Maybe it can't. Can the remote and
the system be 'stabilized' so no one else will come in and mess the
game up? Maybe.
Putting all those kinds of responsibilities on the child is too much.
Parents (their partners) should help!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=I have a
four-year-old too, and while she has a great vocabulary, it's
difficult for her to elucidate the *why* of her behavior. -=-
Even adults don't always know clearly exactly why they don't want to
do something.
People should be allowed to practice paying attention to their own
feelings, even when there aren't clear explanations.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
four-year-old too, and while she has a great vocabulary, it's
difficult for her to elucidate the *why* of her behavior. -=-
Even adults don't always know clearly exactly why they don't want to
do something.
People should be allowed to practice paying attention to their own
feelings, even when there aren't clear explanations.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Linda wrote:
-=-Maybe it's a blessing in disguise -- you
might not have realized the extent to which your behavior is affecting
him if his outward reaction was milder. -=-
This is worth re-reading twice, for everyone involved.
Some kids suffer silently, or create inner barriers to their mother's
voice and advice.
If a child silently learns to ignore the mom or to figure out how to
outflank her to reach a goal, she might waste years of advice-giving
to someone who long ago learned to disregard her every word, while
feigning that he's paying attention. If she says to use birth
control, he will feel like a loser if he does, and a winner if he
doesn't. If she says drugs are dangerous, he might look at her
appropriately and say "okay, I'll be careful" while thinking "bitch."
I have a 17 year old girl who listens to me. I have a 20 year old boy
who listens to me. I have a 22 year old who listens to me more now
that he lives elsewhere than he did when he was living here.
They listen to me because when they were two, and four, and eight, and
fourteen, I listened to them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Maybe it's a blessing in disguise -- you
might not have realized the extent to which your behavior is affecting
him if his outward reaction was milder. -=-
This is worth re-reading twice, for everyone involved.
Some kids suffer silently, or create inner barriers to their mother's
voice and advice.
If a child silently learns to ignore the mom or to figure out how to
outflank her to reach a goal, she might waste years of advice-giving
to someone who long ago learned to disregard her every word, while
feigning that he's paying attention. If she says to use birth
control, he will feel like a loser if he does, and a winner if he
doesn't. If she says drugs are dangerous, he might look at her
appropriately and say "okay, I'll be careful" while thinking "bitch."
I have a 17 year old girl who listens to me. I have a 20 year old boy
who listens to me. I have a 22 year old who listens to me more now
that he lives elsewhere than he did when he was living here.
They listen to me because when they were two, and four, and eight, and
fourteen, I listened to them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Zerbe
Thanks Pam. I'm sure I do ask a lot of him that he isn't particularly
interested in doing. I like to think I keep the options open, but for some
things it's not so much an option as we are doing this and the options are
more how we do it, when, for how long, what we do there, etc. If we are
somewhere that I notice he is having a hard time or says he wants to leave,
I offer other places we can go on the way home (play places, Target, Game
Stop, zoo, a park, get a smoothie) and if he knows we are doing that next,
he's happy but then wants to get going on that next thing. Very often he
just wants to go home again.
Some things he asks for, like when the class book came I asked if he wanted
to sign up for (and these are casual 4-week classes with a teacher he knows
and likes and is really good with kids!) baseball, basketball, soccer,
karate, gymnastics, or swimming. He chose baseball and gymnastics. He's been
good at the classes until today, he just freaked out and said he didn't want
to go. I determined in the end that he was very much into The Incredibles
and did not want to stop watching that. I didn't realize the intensity in
the moment. And I had given him warnings like when we started the movie I
said it might not be over by the time we need to leave for baseball and he
wanted to start it anyway.
I guess I see where I was trying to get him to do what I wanted or thought
he should want to do, baseball. I didn't want to hear that he didn't want to
go! I just got off the phone with my friend Zoe whose son is in that class
too and her son wasn't going but she didn't care (he and his brother were
sick), but she was really good about her attitude! It didn't even bother her
that she paid for the class and he didn't want to go, but for some reason I
was thinking my kid is not like that. He loves baseball! Well, he probably
only loves it when it happens at a convenient time and not when he is in the
middle of a movie.
Geoff (DH) and I have had a going out to lunch routine as long as we've
lived here. He lives close and works late, so otherwise I don't get to see
him much. We scaled back once I had a baby, as it was much harder to get out
of the house at a certain time! He came home for lunches, but it took too
long. Then we started going out more as Damon got older. Now we most often
let Damon pick, that way he is invested in it, and we've been out enough
that he knows what he likes and we are OK with eating at Wendy's if that's
his choice. Last week he chose sushi and on a different day wanted to eat at
Costco! So we did! (This was really cute, he called his dad on the phone and
invited him to lunch. Dad asked where he wanted to go and he said Costco. "I
want to get a hot dog, 2 churros, and a smoothie." I head laughing on the
other end and then "tell your mom we'll meet at Costco in 20 minutes" and we
had a good time.)
On the days when I say it's time to go to lunch with daddy and he starts out
by saying I HATE DADDY, I have a clue we are not leaving the house! I call
Geoff and tell him he'd better go on his own. There is a cafe in his
building, but it closes at 1:30 and he often forgets to get down there. Then
leaving the building is more of a chore, so he just keeps working. It would
be better if I had actual food in the house on those days, because while
Damon is fine on a cup of yogurt and some chips, I need more than that and
don't often have anything suitable.
I am NOT a cook, hate grocery shopping, and eating is not high on the list
of things my brain thinks about. I get immersed into projects and forget to
eat. Then I wonder why I'm all shaky and faint. Well, I don't really wonder
anymore, I know, but I do wonder how it gets that advanced when I know my
body needs to eat. I've always wanted to change some part of that, but we
all know how hard it is to change! So part of my stress is that there is
nothing I want to eat in the house. I have food for the kid (we often eat
corn dogs or chicken nuggets together). This is amazing to me really, I
feared I would be the worst mother on earth, always forgetting to feed my
child! But it hasn't been too hard. He knows when he is hungry and how to
get a snack or he asks for help. I do try to put out a bowl of something or
a platter of several things and that works for him too. (Stuff in the fridge
is healthier than what he can reach in the cabinets!) Although I often wish
I had more options to put out, my downfall of hating to shop. Feeding him
also reminds me to eat, so I don't get that desperate feeling much anymore.
So I'm not sure why it was wrong to call my husband a bear when he doesn't
eat lunch! When he gets home, he'll announce that he ate nothing more than a
banana all day, then growl and say he is ravenously hungry and start
foraging for food. If I'm on the ball, I like to have some crackers and
cheese he can nibble on before dinner is ready, but he'll find something on
his own. Like I said, I don't cook, so I don't often have dinner ready, but
if I know when he's coming home I'll at least have things picked out and
start prepping. Occasionally I'll actually have a dinner ready to eat! But I
don't often know what time he's coming home so that makes it really tough.
When I can't get a hold of him, I may have to fix dinner and we've eaten by
the time he gets home. Our routine of 19yrs is that he does the cooking, but
I do a lot of the prep work (and so much else, like he doesn't do dishes).
I'd love to be better in the kitchen, it's just not my thing, I'm not at all
comfortable in there!
This is why I feel particularly bad when we don't meet him for lunch,
because I know he won't eat on his own. Yes, I realize we are talking about
a grown man (who just turned 40), but I am trying to take care of him as
well as my son. Any advice on that might be helpful too!
I always feel like my posts are too long! It's funny to be asked for more
information!
I may have posted about this before, but these days Damon seems very happy
watching movies and playing wii. He'll watch one movie after another while
he jumps around the living room, off the couches, does karate moves in the
air, and runs laps around the house. Occasionally he'll sit calmly and watch
intently, but that is the odd occurance. He's usually jumping around or
running. Sometimes I sit and watch with him, other times I have work to do.
Sometimes I play wii with him, other times he tells me not to.
My Outlook crashed on me twice last night and this is the 3rd rewrite (it
saved part of it in Drafts each time) so I hope I covered everything!
Kim Z
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
interested in doing. I like to think I keep the options open, but for some
things it's not so much an option as we are doing this and the options are
more how we do it, when, for how long, what we do there, etc. If we are
somewhere that I notice he is having a hard time or says he wants to leave,
I offer other places we can go on the way home (play places, Target, Game
Stop, zoo, a park, get a smoothie) and if he knows we are doing that next,
he's happy but then wants to get going on that next thing. Very often he
just wants to go home again.
Some things he asks for, like when the class book came I asked if he wanted
to sign up for (and these are casual 4-week classes with a teacher he knows
and likes and is really good with kids!) baseball, basketball, soccer,
karate, gymnastics, or swimming. He chose baseball and gymnastics. He's been
good at the classes until today, he just freaked out and said he didn't want
to go. I determined in the end that he was very much into The Incredibles
and did not want to stop watching that. I didn't realize the intensity in
the moment. And I had given him warnings like when we started the movie I
said it might not be over by the time we need to leave for baseball and he
wanted to start it anyway.
I guess I see where I was trying to get him to do what I wanted or thought
he should want to do, baseball. I didn't want to hear that he didn't want to
go! I just got off the phone with my friend Zoe whose son is in that class
too and her son wasn't going but she didn't care (he and his brother were
sick), but she was really good about her attitude! It didn't even bother her
that she paid for the class and he didn't want to go, but for some reason I
was thinking my kid is not like that. He loves baseball! Well, he probably
only loves it when it happens at a convenient time and not when he is in the
middle of a movie.
Geoff (DH) and I have had a going out to lunch routine as long as we've
lived here. He lives close and works late, so otherwise I don't get to see
him much. We scaled back once I had a baby, as it was much harder to get out
of the house at a certain time! He came home for lunches, but it took too
long. Then we started going out more as Damon got older. Now we most often
let Damon pick, that way he is invested in it, and we've been out enough
that he knows what he likes and we are OK with eating at Wendy's if that's
his choice. Last week he chose sushi and on a different day wanted to eat at
Costco! So we did! (This was really cute, he called his dad on the phone and
invited him to lunch. Dad asked where he wanted to go and he said Costco. "I
want to get a hot dog, 2 churros, and a smoothie." I head laughing on the
other end and then "tell your mom we'll meet at Costco in 20 minutes" and we
had a good time.)
On the days when I say it's time to go to lunch with daddy and he starts out
by saying I HATE DADDY, I have a clue we are not leaving the house! I call
Geoff and tell him he'd better go on his own. There is a cafe in his
building, but it closes at 1:30 and he often forgets to get down there. Then
leaving the building is more of a chore, so he just keeps working. It would
be better if I had actual food in the house on those days, because while
Damon is fine on a cup of yogurt and some chips, I need more than that and
don't often have anything suitable.
I am NOT a cook, hate grocery shopping, and eating is not high on the list
of things my brain thinks about. I get immersed into projects and forget to
eat. Then I wonder why I'm all shaky and faint. Well, I don't really wonder
anymore, I know, but I do wonder how it gets that advanced when I know my
body needs to eat. I've always wanted to change some part of that, but we
all know how hard it is to change! So part of my stress is that there is
nothing I want to eat in the house. I have food for the kid (we often eat
corn dogs or chicken nuggets together). This is amazing to me really, I
feared I would be the worst mother on earth, always forgetting to feed my
child! But it hasn't been too hard. He knows when he is hungry and how to
get a snack or he asks for help. I do try to put out a bowl of something or
a platter of several things and that works for him too. (Stuff in the fridge
is healthier than what he can reach in the cabinets!) Although I often wish
I had more options to put out, my downfall of hating to shop. Feeding him
also reminds me to eat, so I don't get that desperate feeling much anymore.
So I'm not sure why it was wrong to call my husband a bear when he doesn't
eat lunch! When he gets home, he'll announce that he ate nothing more than a
banana all day, then growl and say he is ravenously hungry and start
foraging for food. If I'm on the ball, I like to have some crackers and
cheese he can nibble on before dinner is ready, but he'll find something on
his own. Like I said, I don't cook, so I don't often have dinner ready, but
if I know when he's coming home I'll at least have things picked out and
start prepping. Occasionally I'll actually have a dinner ready to eat! But I
don't often know what time he's coming home so that makes it really tough.
When I can't get a hold of him, I may have to fix dinner and we've eaten by
the time he gets home. Our routine of 19yrs is that he does the cooking, but
I do a lot of the prep work (and so much else, like he doesn't do dishes).
I'd love to be better in the kitchen, it's just not my thing, I'm not at all
comfortable in there!
This is why I feel particularly bad when we don't meet him for lunch,
because I know he won't eat on his own. Yes, I realize we are talking about
a grown man (who just turned 40), but I am trying to take care of him as
well as my son. Any advice on that might be helpful too!
I always feel like my posts are too long! It's funny to be asked for more
information!
I may have posted about this before, but these days Damon seems very happy
watching movies and playing wii. He'll watch one movie after another while
he jumps around the living room, off the couches, does karate moves in the
air, and runs laps around the house. Occasionally he'll sit calmly and watch
intently, but that is the odd occurance. He's usually jumping around or
running. Sometimes I sit and watch with him, other times I have work to do.
Sometimes I play wii with him, other times he tells me not to.
My Outlook crashed on me twice last night and this is the 3rd rewrite (it
saved part of it in Drafts each time) so I hope I covered everything!
Kim Z
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bea
--- In [email protected], "Kim Zerbe" <kim.zerbe@...> wrote:
Also, for dinner, can you order out more often? Can you buy more
ready made dishes that you just need to heat up? (There are very
healthy and tasty choices available these days.)
Bea
>talking about
>
> This is why I feel particularly bad when we don't meet him for lunch,
> because I know he won't eat on his own. Yes, I realize we are
> a grown man (who just turned 40), but I am trying to take care of him asCan you order food for him, to be delivered to his office?
> well as my son. Any advice on that might be helpful too!
Also, for dinner, can you order out more often? Can you buy more
ready made dishes that you just need to heat up? (There are very
healthy and tasty choices available these days.)
Bea
Jenny C
>>>I believe you can limit the choices that are available. I find thateven for myself. I'll choose chips if they are there so I avoid them
being there and then I make a better food choice. We have always had a
fruit bowl accessible 24/7, my teens take nuts and fruit to karate as a
good filler. I would aim to make available foods that are enjoyable but
also nutritional rather than empty calories like chips. >>>
Choices are always limited by what is immediately available, it doesn't
need to be arbitrary. If the parent chooses to eat a better choice than
chips, it doesn't mean that the child needs to make the same choice.
The thing about choices, is that you can't control access and still call
it free choice.
Something that I've learned over the years is that without real choices,
kids don't really learn how to make good ones. Sometimes it looks that
way simply because some kids like to please their parents and make the
"right" choice, but eventually they will make their own choices and come
to their own conclusions about what foods they want to eat. I see a
huge value of starting this when they are young and really know how to
listen to their bodies. Food conditioning over many years can prevent
us from listening to our bodies and makes it something that you have to
relearn how to do. If that conditioning never happens, a kid will never
stop listening to their body.
I would also like to say that chips are not empty calories. Chips are
not all the same. I ate chips for dinner last night because it was
exactly what I wanted. My husband made a nice dinner for himself and
one of our kids and offered to make enough for everyone, but I wanted
chips and said "no thanks" and our other daughter made her own food.